India's culture of misogyny

saadibaba

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By Anshul Kumar Pandey

Following the heinous Delhi gang-rape case — whose victim tragically has now died — I was one of the many people demanding castration for the accused. Confronted with a crime of such a barbaric nature, it was only natural for many like me to demand a punishment of equal barbarity to teach the rapists ‘a lesson’. However, I have since come to realise that castration or capital punishment for the rapists does not solve the larger underlying problem of the culture of misogyny that pervades Indian society. Capital punishment or castration would not solve these larger social problems that we as a nation need to confront urgently in order to rein in the crimes against women which have gained a sense of normalcy in one’s daily life due to our own apathy.

The arrival of a girl child in most families in India is not marked by distribution of sweets or a chorus of joy. Instead, there are only curses reserved for the child whose only crime is her gender. She is denied an education to pursue any goals and ambitions she may have in life. She is restricted to the four walls of her house for the sake of preserving her virginity which is her only asset in India’s arranged-marriage market. She is often married off to a complete stranger at an age when she should be in school. Right from day one, she is treated as the property of someone or the other and the onus of preserving her ‘value’ is put on her head.

When Indians have such a culture, which blames the consumption of chow mein or greater interaction with the opposite sex or most importantly, the victim herself, as the main reasons for rape, rather than looking inward, how can one expect to satisfy the chants of justice by castrating or hanging the rapists? The accused are only a small part of the problem and dealing with them in isolation isn’t going to prevent the rapes. India needs, urgently, to review — first and foremost — its understanding and behaviour towards women. Unless or until Indians are ready to change their mindset — which is so pathetically evident in the misogynist lyrics of Bollywood songs and the portrayal of women in mainstream media — they cannot expect to put an end to these crimes against women. Domestic violence, female foeticide, honour killings, etc. are no less heinous crimes than rape, so why should we be outraged just by rapes only?

It is instinctive to demand severe punishment for the rapists. However, when one tries to see the effect that the fulfilment of this demand would have, one comes to terms with the larger picture. If death penalty for rapists is made a law in India, it would have to convict and hang several of its own members of parliament since many have charges of rape pending against them. Furthermore, there would have to be trials of people from India’s armed forces who have charges of rape pending against them. We would have to hang fathers, brothers, grandfathers, uncles, relatives — in short, every person who is convicted of rape and that tally would not be small. Is Indian society so bloodthirsty that it is willing to hang these men but not address the underlying flaws causing such acts?

Castration for rapists is already a law in South Korea and yet, the country is not ranked very high in terms of gender equality. A section of Indian society is rather moderate in demanding the death penalty and says that it should be awarded in the rarest of the rare rape cases. But can one weigh the heinousness of one crime with regard to another on a scale of brutality?

By offering prophylactic solutions like castration and the death penalty, the whole debate is reduced to a rather simplistic story of a villain and a victim. This also means that we, in effect, absolve ourselves of the larger responsibility of creating such a stifling patriarchal society in the first place. If Indians want justice for the 23-year-old dead victim of this gang rape and her many counterparts who are struggling in various other parts of the country for their lives, they will have to start with themselves.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/486736/how-i-changed-my-mind-about-rapists/
 
Without reading the article i agree 100% with it...if there was a country which was run by women, i would have migrated to that..enough of chauvinists misogynists impotent males trying to prove their manliness by humiliating and subjugating women..
 
India is modern in theory, but in practice it's still stuck in the dark ages, similar to the rest of the SC. It doesn't get as much negative coverage as other countries because India is good at selling a better image. It tells you a lot though that even three generations down the line in the UK the pracice of distributing sweets for the birth of a boy is still going strong.
 
Without reading the article i agree 100% with it...if there was a country which was run by women, i would have migrated to that..enough of chauvinists misogynists impotent males trying to prove their manliness by humiliating and subjugating women..

Lol feminists are just as annoying.
 
Without reading the article i agree 100% with it...if there was a country which was run by women, i would have migrated to that..enough of chauvinists misogynists impotent males trying to prove their manliness by humiliating and subjugating women..

welcome gentleman!:akhtar
 
We even treat the brother in law as an abuse..just shows the mentality of seeing your wife as something that you have won, and so her brother is a s-aala..a perfectly honourable relation in civilized countries..but here it is used to show that one has the upper ground by having someone's sister as his wife..
 
Lol feminists are just as annoying.

feminists can be at best annoying...and most of the time it is a reaction against the male chauvinism..it is a fight for the space that has been taken away from the females.. i feel safe in the company of women.. when i am walking at night ( in usa these days ) and see a woman i feel safe that i wont be mugged even if she is a hardcore feminist.. women by nature are more sensitive more compassionate than males ( in general )..the world would have been a better place if it was run by women...sometimes i feel ashamed of being born as a man.
 
Without reading the article i agree 100% with it...if there was a country which was run by women, i would have migrated to that..enough of chauvinists misogynists impotent males trying to prove their manliness by humiliating and subjugating women..

What role do you think Bollywood plays in propagating misogyny in the society. I'm particularly interested in what you guys think about the increasing sexuality and crassness being portrayed in Bollywood movies. Hit songs with titles like "Munni badnam", "Chikni Chameli" etc. is that not making people view women as sexual objects rather than human beings.
 
we also glorify women who are docile and obey their husbands as if they are masters..and if a husband listens to his wife, then he call him joru ka ghulaam.. a true man is one who respects his woman more than his ego..and it is a shame these chauvinists have wives when they dont even deserve a goat.
 
We even treat the brother in law as an abuse..just shows the mentality of seeing your wife as something that you have won, and so her brother is a s-aala..a perfectly honourable relation in civilized countries..but here it is used to show that one has the upper ground by having someone's sister as his wife..

How do you have equality when you have a dowry system in place ?
 
We even treat the brother in law as an abuse..just shows the mentality of seeing your wife as something that you have won, and so her brother is a s-aala..a perfectly honourable relation in civilized countries..but here it is used to show that one has the upper ground by having someone's sister as his wife..

Thats a fair point.

It's just another way of saying to someone 'I am screwing your sister'
 
we also glorify women who are docile and obey their husbands as if they are masters..and if a husband listens to his wife, then he call him joru ka ghulaam.. a true man is one who respects his woman more than his ego..and it is a shame these chauvinists have wives when they dont even deserve a goat.

Come on now....that's going too far the other way. Joru ka gulaam can be accurate in some cases. Guys who jump through hoops for a woman are nauseating in their own way.
 
What role do you think Bollywood plays in propagating misogyny in the society. I'm particularly interested in what you guys think about the increasing sexuality and crassness being portrayed in Bollywood movies. Hit songs with titles like "Munni badnam", "Chikni Chameli" etc. is that not making people view women as sexual objects rather than human beings.

i dont think bollywood is the reason..surely not the main reason..it helps in maintaining and propagating the negative attitudes towards females.. but the fountainhead of this problem comes from the society..how they bring up their sons and how they forgive every mistake by their son just because he was born with something extra between the legs...and how females are made to live up to being martyred..expected to sacrifice everytime.. if they are lucky to escape foeticide, they might face discrimination compared to the brother..if she survives that she may be a victim of honour killing if she dares to choose her own partner..or harrassed for dowry...if she survives sexual harassment ( sugarcoated as eve teasing ) she might be raped some day..or have acid thrown for refusing a loser...or if she still manages to succeed her jealous male colleagues will doubt her character and spread rumour about her.

yes this doesnt happen to all..but no woman is really safe..and the blame goes to our society mostly...bollywood is not the main reason..because even in western nations women are shown as sexual objects but they dont have honour killings and the general misogyny shown by our indian macho men..
 
Come on now....that's going too far the other way. Joru ka gulaam can be accurate in some cases. Guys who jump through hoops for a woman are nauseating in their own way.

Why dont we hear the term shauhar ka ghulam/kaneez? Why is this term absent from our lexicon? that was my point.
 
What role do you think Bollywood plays in propagating misogyny in the society. I'm particularly interested in what you guys think about the increasing sexuality and crassness being portrayed in Bollywood movies. Hit songs with titles like "Munni badnam", "Chikni Chameli" etc. is that not making people view women as sexual objects rather than human beings.

TBH,these kinds of incidents were happening before.At that time there was not much media coverage,girls and women were more worried about their future and isolation they had to face in the public.
 
Thats a fair point.

It's just another way of saying to someone 'I am screwing your sister'

not only that..if i have married someone's sister, then not only her family..but her entire neighborhood is my s-aala.. some extend it to the entire country ( shoaib-sania)... the way we perceive behnoi and s-aala relations gives away how we see a wife..something that has been won and getting to sleep with her means now you have upper hand over her entire family/clan/tribe/country..
 
I know people like to blame the superficial things like media and bollywood...but I think those are not the problem...infact some of the solutions sometimes....

Problems are deep rooted into the society....

That the fact that a women who has a boyfriend will be open to anybody....the fact that virginity is sacred....the fact sex for women is more about the duty than something that they enjoy and that needs their consent....the fact that women represents the honor of the society....the fact that the women needs to be a virgin before marriage..men need not .....the fact that women who are conservative are good..and women who who have fun are game for everybody and anybody.....the fact the perfect women is one who listens to her husband and does her house jobs...but not the one who enjoys herself..and has a career...

but I see hope...the number of people that have come out in support...all over India over a rape which is quite common.....It will take time...
 
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I think the way that we view sexuality has a lot of blame...why link marriage with sexuality....why create a mystery around it...why make it an urge which is not easy to get...why not just say sex is fun..sex is normal...sex is human!!!!

The more people give it some kind of sacredness....the more people's urge is pushed down..the more women's sexuality is not given the respect it deserves...the more people think sex for a women is a duty....and not pleasure....the more reason people think it can be forced upon her.....

the sexist prudish upbringing in India has lot of blame for it....
 
One more thing is how Rape victim is treated..... "Iski tho Zindagi barbaad ho gayi hai" ?? I have never seen more disgusted statement than that really..

I was watching NDTV's show other day...and an inspirational brave women said the same...she said " I am not a victim...I am a survivor...I am a rape survivor....I lost more due to the reactions I got days after than due to actually incident of rape...

Guy who raped me is a looser...he is the one who is not man enough to get a girl to sleep with him..and he raped me..he is looser....his life is one that should go to dogs....not mine...I am a survivor....I am a brave women...and I will live this life as I exactly planned to before the rape" !!!

I was moved into tears really.....
 
i dont think bollywood is the reason..surely not the main reason..it helps in maintaining and propagating the negative attitudes towards females.. but the fountainhead of this problem comes from the society..how they bring up their sons and how they forgive every mistake by their son just because he was born with something extra between the legs...and how females are made to live up to being martyred..expected to sacrifice everytime.. if they are lucky to escape foeticide, they might face discrimination compared to the brother..if she survives that she may be a victim of honour killing if she dares to choose her own partner..or harrassed for dowry...if she survives sexual harassment ( sugarcoated as eve teasing ) she might be raped some day..or have acid thrown for refusing a loser...or if she still manages to succeed her jealous male colleagues will doubt her character and spread rumour about her.

yes this doesnt happen to all..but no woman is really safe..and the blame goes to our society mostly...bollywood is not the main reason..because even in western nations women are shown as sexual objects but they dont have honour killings and the general misogyny shown by our indian macho men..

That was my point. But considering the impact of Bollywood on the Indian society as a whole is massive. Its like a religion. People from all walks of life, classes, religions, languages etc. follow movie stars obsessively. They stand outside their houses for days, waiting to watch a glimpse. Ive heard there are temples made for certain south Indian stars like Rajnikanth. But why is it that the vulgarity in Indian movies is taken as harmless fun. You guys blame the society and culture. Isn't Bollywood responsible to a large extent is forming that culture.
 
I think the way that we view sexuality has a lot of blame...why link marriage with sexuality....why create a mystery around it...why make it an urge which is not easy to get...why not just say sex is fun..sex is normal...sex is human!!!!

The more people give it some kind of sacredness....the more people's urge is pushed down..the more women's sexuality is not given the respect it deserves...the more people think sex for a women is a duty....and not pleasure....the more reason people think it can be forced upon her.....

the sexist prudish upbringing in India has lot of blame for it....

So what do you propose ?
 
That was my point. But considering the impact of Bollywood on the Indian society as a whole is massive. Its like a religion. People from all walks of life, classes, religions, languages etc. follow movie stars obsessively. They stand outside their houses for days, waiting to watch a glimpse. Ive heard there are temples made for certain south Indian stars like Rajnikanth. But why is it that the vulgarity in Indian movies is taken as harmless fun. You guys blame the society and culture. Isn't Bollywood responsible to a large extent is forming that culture.

Everything bad we have in our society existed before bollywood...nothing has changed....infact it has opened doors to be open minded about women being equals...women who can enjoy sexuality and be free..and be good and be normal and be as awesome as men are open. if anything it has Potrayed women in as individuals...individuals who want to enjoy their life and also be a good human....for example....People who want to see superficially...The dirty picture may be a galore of semi nudity..and sex scenes...but it is more than that. Bollywood is an easy target really....but it is actually doing more good than harm in perception of women. It is pretty much the samething as blaming the skirt women wore than men who cannot control their libido. Bollywood potrayel of women and their dresses should not be the reason for men to go on a rape rampage in real world...Bollywood potrayes John abraham and Varun Dhawan's butts too....so!!!

Sheila ki Jawani was always there before Bollywood and after Bollywod....India has a society has always treated women lesser than men....Do you think no bollywood would change anything in the way women are treated....We would still continue to treat that women are supposed to be indoors...women are not supposed to enjoy their life...women's virgnity is cared...women should dress a certain way...sex is duty for women..and women who is attracted to men seduces men or has a boy friend is a slut...the above thought process is what causes rapes....not bollywood or its potrayel of women!!! Infact bollywood made people open minded..to religion..to sexuality...to not taking houswives for granted and that they have zeal to learn and achieve something....(english vinglish)
 
Everything bad we have in our society existed before bollywood...nothing has changed....infact it has opened doors to be open minded about women being equals...women who can enjoy sexuality and be free..and be good and be normal and be as awesome as men are open. if anything it has Potrayed women in as individuals...individuals who want to enjoy their life and also be a good human....for example....People who want to see superficially...The dirty picture may be a galore of semi nudity..and sex scenes...but it is more than that. Bollywood is an easy target really....but it is actually doing more good than harm in perception of women. It is pretty much the samething as blaming the skirt women wore than men who cannot control their libido. Bollywood potrayel of women and their dresses should not be the reason for men to go on a rape rampage in real world...Bollywood potrayes John abraham and Varun Dhawan's butts too....so!!!

Sheila ki Jawani was always there before Bollywood and after Bollywod....India has a society has always treated women lesser than men....Do you think no bollywood would change anything in the way women are treated....We would still continue to treat that women are supposed to be indoors...women are not supposed to enjoy their life...women's virgnity is cared...women should dress a certain way...sex is duty for women..and women who is attracted to men seduces men or has a boy friend is a slut...the above thought process is what causes rapes....not bollywood or its potrayel of women!!! Infact bollywood made people open minded..to religion..to sexuality...to not taking houswives for granted and that they have zeal to learn and achieve something....(english vinglish)

I just don't see how sexually exploiting women and calling it sexual liberation is helping women gain more respect in the society. Why is the camera focused on a woman's midriff or butt while she is shaking it. Is it about liberation or exploitation ?
 
So what do you propose ?

Same as I said...I will teach my son or daughter...that women is not honor of family anymore than men are....That women is equal to men in every way possible....that Sex is not duty for a women...it is important to take consent...there is no sacredness to it..have it..be safe..it is normal !!! That it is very very important to take consent irrespective of the way women change their partners....not judge people 's characters based on sexuality.....General attitude is...."this girl has guy friends...she is roaming at night..she might be having sex with everybody...so she is game if we force it on her"...this attitude..is what is happening in India now...the collission of two cultures...
 
I just don't see how sexually exploiting women and calling it sexual liberation is helping women gain more respect in the society. Why is the camera focused on a woman's midriff or butt while she is shaking it. Is it about liberation or exploitation ?

This is same as...why do we show murders in cinema...we show it coz cinema is supposed to incite a reactionl..connect to the audience..!!! Just coz I am watching dexter..and they are showing life from serial killer point of view...I go and rampage and kill people....

This is exactly the arguement that people use....that girl is wearing skirt..so I have right to touch her..and she must be game..

that women in cinema enjoys sex and that in their mind is wrong..and so women must be a slut... ..and seduces men....that does not give men to judge all the other women in the real world...

I can watch a naked women on screen....enjoy it..and then judge my coworker on her talent...and than her sexuality....We are looking at two very different things IMO....

Enjoy sexuality is different from raping a women.......I can look at women and think she is sexy..and then not even touch her with out her permission.....Touching her without permission is more due to the attitudes in the society towards women....than women and their potrayel or the dress the women who I found sexy has wore !!
 
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Epic posts from Gentleman once again, absolutely brilliant! And credit for Navroks for many a salient point.

Feminists get annoying when their cause stops being about gender equality, and lapses into sexism and sexist comments about men. But in principle their cause is an understandable one.

Moreover, a feminist does not have to a woman. Who here is interested in the idea of equal rights in society for women? I am. I'm to some extent a feminist. If you are too, then you are to some extent a feminist too. It's not an abnormal nor an evil cause.

Militant and queer feminism can be atrocious; I have heard for instance serious proposals for men being made redundant en masse, and also read a theory (in a published text!) which argues women are born bisexual and made heterosexual by patriarchal society. Okay then bro.

But truth is the likes of Emily Pankhurst and Virginia Woolf, some of the original and less maniacal feminists, would be turning in their graves if they knew of these absurd hijacks. So feminism gets an unfairly bad rep at times.
 
I think the way that we view sexuality has a lot of blame...why link marriage with sexuality....why create a mystery around it...why make it an urge which is not easy to get...why not just say sex is fun..sex is normal...sex is human!!!!
Sweden has the highest reported rape stats after SOuth Africa and Botswana.
They are fairly open.

When it comes to different cultures approach to sex I believe it is more confusion of what's right and what's wrong that is to blame rather than one particular view. In India majority of the people believe that sex before marriage is wrong yet they are also bombarded with sexual images from Bollywood and further west advertising extra-marital sex.

A lot of reasons are provided for why Delhi is the way it is, bollywood, sexism, skewed sex ratios, large populations of cross state male economic migrants...etc. I think all of these things play a part and each one needs to be addressed.

While bollywood may not be the main reason, people should consider what effect watching a woman dancing while being lustfully gazed upon by a dozen men, has on small minds.
 
This is same as...why do we show murders in cinema...we show it coz cinema is supposed to incite a reactionl..connect to the audience..!!! Just coz I am watching dexter..and they are showing life from serial killer point of view...I go and rampage and kill people....

This is exactly the arguement that people use....that girl is wearing skirt..so I have right to touch her..and she must be game..

that women in cinema enjoys sex and that in their mind is wrong..and so women must be a slut... ..and seduces men....that does not give men to judge all the other women in the real world...

I can watch a naked women on screen....enjoy it..and then judge my coworker on her talent...and than her sexuality....We are looking at two very different things IMO....

Enjoy sexuality is different from raping a women.......I can look at women and think she is sexy..and then not even touch her with out her permission.....Touching her without permission is more due to the attitudes in the society towards women....than women and their potrayel or the dress the women who I found sexy has wore !!

You want everyone in the society to be as open minded as you when watching vulgar and sexually exploitative stuff, take it as art or something and move on but the reality is the majority of men are unable to do that and for the matter even the makers of those movies. I wonder if they make those scenes to depict some emotion which was unable to be depicted without showing it e.g. item numbers, what do they really add to the story or plot. I can understand something like murder or violence being shown if the story demands it but the majority of sexual stuff that is shown in Indian movies is totally unnecessary and illogical and their only target seem to be people who want to watch that stuff to satisfy their sexual desires. Dont you think Bollywood by playing to that crowd is in turn exploiting women.
 
We've done this one before and it goes round and round in circles.

I would argue that covering women up makes men sexually frustrated, psychologically underdone and unable to converse with or understand women, whereas somebody else would argue that undressing women makes men more easily aroused, more animalistic in general, and unable to converse with or respect women.

Depends on the culture you've been brought up in and stuff.
 
You want everyone in the society to be as open minded as you when watching vulgar and sexually exploitative stuff, take it as art or something and move on but the reality is the majority of men are unable to do that and for the matter even the makers of those movies. I wonder if they make those scenes to depict some emotion which was unable to be depicted without showing it e.g. item numbers, what do they really add to the story or plot. I can understand something like murder or violence being shown if the story demands it but the majority of sexual stuff that is shown in Indian movies is totally unnecessary and illogical and their only target seem to be people who want to watch that stuff to satisfy their sexual desires. Dont you think Bollywood by playing to that crowd is in turn exploiting women.

Majority of men are unable to do that??????? I say most of the people are able to do that....it is that minute percentage of rapists that cannot.....Item numbers are not supposed to say anything than a fun song..and while doing so incite a reaction in the audience...yes...it can be argued as sexually exploitative like many other emotions are exploited on cinema....so why can you understand that fact that murder can be shown which down right harms a person..while you cannot understand sexuality being shown while it actually shows the harmless reality of life that sex is normal for everybody????

How we as society treat women has nothing to do with item numbers....It is what he has taught in his sexist upbringing that is main important culprit here....if he was brought up normally....he wont look at a film and than start raping women....
 
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Infact bollywood is the other way around, in the recent movie cocktail....while saif hangs out with liberatedd sexually free Deepika for longest of the time..and but when it comes to marriage..marry a normal women who conservative...whu is sexually liberated women always a tragic queen in bollywood...why is she not a winner???? Why deepika had to change for Saif's approval into shalwaar wearning normal conservative Indian ladki.....

Bollywood for the longest time has actually inhibited the growth of sexual liberty in India...I am actually glad it is changing fast!! attaching a taboo towards sex....and many dialogues which shows rape victims life as something that cannot be recovered from..and more importantly....in not showing how brutal a rape is but with joke of picturaization of villian jusst pouncing....
 
I used to find the idea of feminism excessive and absurd. But then I took a women's studies course in college. I admit, I only took it to meet girls, but it was an eye opener for me. Having read numerous pinnacle feminist texts in the course, it was hard not to see the vast inequality between genders. Women are disadvantaged in all societies across the world, not just India. Even seemingly harmless activities, such as the language we use to refer to women can be discriminatory. Now I'm not saying that it's always a conscious decision by men to undermine women; rather, its a result of practices we implement in society, that have slowly evolved since the start of civilization. For men, this can be tough to see- our gender is rarely even a factor in everyday life, and we tend to view any discrepancies between the sexes as natural.
 
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Majority of men are unable to do that??????? I say most of the people are able to do that....it is that minute percentage of rapists that cannot.....Item numbers are not supposed to say anything than a fun song..and while doing so incite a reaction in the audience...yes...it can be argued as sexually exploitative like many other emotions are exploited on cinema....so why can you understand that fact that murder can be shown which down right harms a person..while you can understand sexuality being shown while it actually shows the harmless reality of life that sex is normal for everybody????

How we as society treat women has nothing to do with item numbers....It is what he has taught in his sexist upbringing that is main important culprit here....if he was brought up normally....he wont look at a film and than start raping women....

I'm not saying people who have misogynistic views all end up raping women. I'm talking about the role of misogyny in Indian society and Bollwoods role in it. People who watch and enjoy item numbers don't necessarily go and rape but what happens is portrayal of women in such a manner becomes acceptable and the society continued to stay restricted and stereotypical in their views towards women.
 
And at Saadibaba, the fact that you can understand violence being shown..and not sex.....is actually due to you attaching some sacredness towards sex....that it is an emotion when incited is an exploitation...but when an emotion of rage is incited in cinema..it is not exploitation...why so??? Isnt sexuality less harmfull than violence in general....
 
saadibaba, why do you hate bollywood? they show women as sexual objects just like other movie industries..but they also show a woman as independent and liberated individual in some movies... they also have dealt with many topics that were taboo, like pre marital pregnancy, honour killing, live in relations.. in fact the bollywood of the 80s and early 90s was far worse in showing females..it has only improved since then..

should we blame murders on the violence shown in the movies? or rapes on the A rated movies, or the explicit version easily available on the internet? surely they promote lust more than an average bollywood movie..

in any case if you blame the sexual scenes then you should also blame those scenes where a woman is shown overly docile and a martyr..always making sacrifices for the male...because that also propagates the message that a female should be subservient to the male..and remain within her dehleez set by the patriarchal society.
 
I used to find the idea of feminism excessive and absurd. But then I took a women's studies course in college. I admit, I only took it to meet girls

Ha ha HA! I eventually read the whole post and it was good, but took me a little while to get past this opening. Brilliant!
 
Infact bollywood is the other way around, in the recent movie cocktail....while saif hangs out with liberatedd sexually free Deepika for longest of the time..and but when it comes to marriage..marry a normal women who conservative...whu is sexually liberated women always a tragic queen in bollywood...why is she not a winner???? Why deepika had to change for Saif's approval into shalwaar wearning normal conservative Indian ladki.....

Bollywood for the longest time has actually inhibited the growth of sexual liberty in India...I am actually glad it is changing fast!! attaching a taboo towards sex....and many dialogues which shows rape victims life as something that cannot be recovered from..and more importantly....in not showing how brutal a rape is but with joke of picturaization of villian jusst pouncing....


You are talking about a handful of movies and not looking at the vast majority of movies churned everywhere by Bollywood which have nothing to do with women lib, they have no intention to make sex more acceptable but their only purpose is to invite typical male chauvinist behaviour. Sexual freedom is one thing and sexual exploitation is another, I think you are confusing them as one.
 
I'm not saying people who have misogynistic views all end up raping women. I'm talking about the role of misogyny in Indian society and Bollwoods role in it. People who watch and enjoy item numbers don't necessarily go and rape but what happens is portrayal of women in such a manner becomes acceptable and the society continued to stay restricted and stereotypical in their views towards women.

Now...tell me this....do you think male nakedness is exploitation as well??? Why is that a man cannot remove the item numbers in his streotyping of women...but can easily remove..let us...recent english vinglish when a normal taken for granted housewife is shown as ambitious women who has zeal and take on the world as easily as men...why is that not used stereotyping???? Where is the problem??in bollywood that potrays all kinds of people...from sexually liberated...to conservative ladki who is gar ka izzat....

or men who stereotype because they do not have brains to distinguish between two individuals because they are some gender!!

one more question...what stereotype is bollywood item songs...spreading that they are sexual objects?? So are you saying since men do not have brains enough to know that women are not unidimensional..and incredibly succesfull conservative women can enjoy sex....so is that problem in the men who think or the scene in bollywood?? Shall we inhibity bollywood into more censorship..and inhibit sexual liberation more in India..or do we educate the masses???
 
We've done this one before and it goes round and round in circles.

I would argue that covering women up makes men sexually frustrated, psychologically underdone and unable to converse with or understand women, whereas somebody else would argue that undressing women makes men more easily aroused, more animalistic in general, and unable to converse with or respect women.

Depends on the culture you've been brought up in and stuff.

That last line is key. What's right for America or the UK isn't necessarily suitable for places like India where there is a very different mindset.
 
saadibaba, why do you hate bollywood? they show women as sexual objects just like other movie industries..but they also show a woman as independent and liberated individual in some movies... they also have dealt with many topics that were taboo, like pre marital pregnancy, honour killing, live in relations.. in fact the bollywood of the 80s and early 90s was far worse in showing females..it has only improved since then..

should we blame murders on the violence shown in the movies? or rapes on the A rated movies, or the explicit version easily available on the internet? surely they promote lust more than an average bollywood movie..

in any case if you blame the sexual scenes then you should also blame those scenes where a woman is shown overly docile and a martyr..always making sacrifices for the male...because that also propagates the message that a female should be subservient to the male..and remain within her dehleez set by the patriarchal society.

Exactly...people like to look at the superficial solutions. Bollywood has done no harm to women recently...infact its potrayel of women in earlier cinema in the 60's to early 90's is also one of the major reasons for our condidion today....how many times have we seen the dialogue..."Aurat ga ka izzat hota hai".....How many times have seen women who has boy friend shown as somebody who does not have character in the initial movies.....Infact bollywood has actually pushed the notion of sacredness towards sex more ...
 
That last line is key. What's right for America or the UK isn't necessarily suitable for places like India where there is a very different mindset.

True...so how do we work it..attach more mystery towards sex..attach women as gar ka izzat....proclaim that women who enjoy sex as sluts..the women should not have boy friends...and women should be restricted to home...and sex is only a wife duty..and any celebration of sexuality in women should be considered derogatory to women as if women do not enjoy sexuality.......and then men are more awesome..and should be bread earner of the home...and his sexuality has no sacredness...

or do we actually liberate people..and make them realize that women are as equal to men in everyway possible....teach them important of consent coz it is both should enjoy the act of sex...and women who do not want to be touched by you do not want to be touched..irresptive of how people she slept it..and that women sexuality has nothing to do with characters...and they are not unidimensional....

there is someplace India has to start right??? I am sure...things will change....10 yrs we would not have cared ...today millons of people are on the roads.....young people when are old enough to teach their children...this is a start for new India...we cannot keep saying...this is not right for our culture!! what is that culture..that inhibits women of her rights ..and even emotions!!
 
Guys, those item numbers will be considered soft porn in Hollywood, not just the dress and moves but the camera focus etc. it's outright pathetic. you guys watch it so much it's become a norm for you but it's not liberating in any way.
 
And at Saadibaba, the fact that you can understand violence being shown..and not sex.....is actually due to you attaching some sacredness towards sex....that it is an emotion when incited is an exploitation...but when an emotion of rage is incited in cinema..it is not exploitation...why so??? Isnt sexuality less harmfull than violence in general....

If sex or murder is shown as being an integral part of the story,plot or in the development of a character, that is justifiable. But in Bollywood you have an item number come from no where and have no relation to the story or plot etc. it's just thrown in there to satisfy a certain crowd. Is Bollywood not responsible in any way ?
 
The arrival of a girl child in most families in India is not marked by distribution of sweets or a chorus of joy. Instead, there are only curses reserved for the child whose only crime is her gender. She is denied an education to pursue any goals and ambitions she may have in life. She is restricted to the four walls of her house for the sake of preserving her virginity which is her only asset in India’s arranged-marriage market. She is often married off to a complete stranger at an age when she should be in school. Right from day one, she is treated as the property of someone or the other and the onus of preserving her ‘value’ is put on her head.

This is the attitude that disempowers women the most in the SC. It is sad that my own mother is a victim of such treatment. Based on her personal accounts, she was bred to be a housewife from the day she was born; she continues to fulfill this duty today. In comparison to my father, and even myself as I become older, my mother has considerably less power and influence within my family. The justification for this is her lack of education. My father, being the primary breadwinner, has control of all facets of the family, especially monetary. When you look at only the current state of my family, this may seem justified. But when you consider that, growing up, my mother did not have the same opportunities to pursue her ambitions as my father, it is clear that this is a product of societal misogyny. The process is simple and effective: from the day they are born, we disadvantage our women; by the time they have reached adulthood, they are often well behind men, and we use this as a justification for their lower position in society. This is often done so seamlessly that women themselves do not recognize it, and in fact, even tend to advocate these discriminatory practices. From the times I've spoken to my mother about it, it's clear that she feels that it is simply her function in society, being a woman. She does not feel that she, or other women, deserve more.
 
Guys, those item numbers will be considered soft porn in Hollywood, not just the dress and moves but the camera focus etc. it's outright pathetic. you guys watch it so much it's become a norm for you but it's not liberating in any way.

I have to agree that "item numbers," which tend to objectify women, are not liberating. In fact, they are often outright sexist. I have not seen much of bollywood of late, but from the films I saw while growing up, it is tough to see where they are "liberating" women.
 
True...so how do we work it..attach more mystery towards sex..attach women as gar ka izzat....proclaim that women who enjoy sex as sluts..the women should not have boy friends...and women should be restricted to home...and sex is only a wife duty..and any celebration of sexuality in women should be considered derogatory to women as if women do not enjoy sexuality.......and then men are more awesome..and should be bread earner of the home...and his sexuality has no sacredness...

or do we actually liberate people..and make them realize that women are as equal to men in everyway possible....teach them important of consent coz it is both should enjoy the act of sex...and women who do not want to be touched by you do not want to be touched..irresptive of how people she slept it..and that women sexuality has nothing to do with characters...and they are not unidimensional....

there is someplace India has to start right??? I am sure...things will change....10 yrs we would not have cared ...today millons of people are on the roads.....young people when are old enough to teach their children...this is a start for new India...we cannot keep saying...this is not right for our culture!! what is that culture..that inhibits women of her rights ..and even emotions!!

I don't really watch Bollywood films but I can't say that of those I've seen many were liberating for women. Maybe I'm behind the times and things have changed but most seem vacuous and titillating rather than liberating. I'm not slating Bollywood here btw, there have been some very good ones among the dross which have their own charm.

I would say Indian entertainment needs to put as much emphasis on intelligence and worth of a woman rather than portraying them as dolly birds who flit around in skimpy outfits then realise the error of their ways and become the dutiful wife.

Again, I might be out of touch so correct me if I'm wrong.
 
I'm not saying people who have misogynistic views all end up raping women. I'm talking about the role of misogyny in Indian society and Bollwoods role in it. People who watch and enjoy item numbers don't necessarily go and rape but what happens is portrayal of women in such a manner becomes acceptable and the society continued to stay restricted and stereotypical in their views towards women.

what about the vast majority of men in the world ( including the west) who enjoy porn which shows women in very degrading situations. does that not contribute to misogyny ?

in bollywood you have the item girls but there is also in general respect for family and the mother/sister figure. its an interesting dichotomy.
 
If sex or murder is shown as being an integral part of the story,plot or in the development of a character, that is justifiable. But in Bollywood you have an item number come from no where and have no relation to the story or plot etc. it's just thrown in there to satisfy a certain crowd. Is Bollywood not responsible in any way ?

Is bollywood responsible in anyway for today's women situation in India?? Hell No....It is not in anyway !!!


Tell me this...exploitation of an emotion in human is what cinema supposed to do !! now let us say a guy watched something is sexually high...and what is that makes him think he has the right to touch women coz he is sexually high?? the song or his prudish sexist upbringing???? We are all looking at the superficial things...the real issues is at the grass root level in the society..

what is stopping men stereotyping women based on the awesome female characters shown in movies...but they only do with sexually liberated characters....sexual fustration?? where does this sexual fustration come from...by attaching some kind of sacredness to the act of sex...

even in hollywood...lot of nakedness can be avoided..infact I strongly most nudity is not needed in cinema...if a director wants to say the same story in PG-13 way...it can be done..and now he chose to show nudity..to bring in more excitement....like any other emotions......same thing as item numbers.....I think they are no different from any sort of emotional exploitation movies do....I have seen movies that justify murder...

Today if somebody watched Sheila ki Jawani and went and raped a women..who is at fault here ?? men or sheila ki jawani?? how different is this arguement from men rape because women has wore skirt and it was revealing and he was sexually incited...I see no different really....if not cinema...he will get sexually high by some other thing and he will rape them...how do you stop it...by actually working on the society...but not cinema or dress the women !!

this cinema arguement almost is borderline rapist apologic in nature personally....
 
Going back to the excellent opening article - I definitely agree there are deep-rooted societal problems in India that must be resolved, simply hanging the perpetrators is not going to solve this issue.

Women seem to be treated as second-class citizens in all aspects.

Firstly, a cultural aspect. Why is it that people in India expect higher moral standards in women than men. This idea that women must be virgins to add to their 'marital value' - there doesn't seem to be that same level of expectation on the man to uphold such values of sexual integrity.

Secondly, the judicial system is failing women in India. There were more than 635 reported rapes in Delhi last year, but only one conviction. Last week a two-year-old girl was raped to death in Gujarat while the victim of another gang rape committed suicide. Her choice was to drop the charges or marry one of her attackers.

Thirdly, a lack of medical support for rape victims. There was one case where a rape victim had to undergo rather hideous tests in which the doctor tested a woman's private parts to see whether it was 'habituated to sexual intercourse'. There needs to be rehabilitation facilities, mental health programmes in which qualified professionals can examine and treat these vulnerable women who have suffered terrible acts of barbarism. Quite often these women end up with deep psychological scars and end up committing acts of self-harm and suicide.

Fourthly - institutional reforms, especially reforms to the police. Over the years, rape has become institutionalised in India and the authorities have either turned a blind eye or have been involved. There are numerous cases of women who have been raped, gone to the police, been put in police cells and then gang raped by the police officers which is reprehensible, so police reform is a must.

Fifthly - education. I don't think this needs to be explained. Educate young people at an early age so they know this kind of depravity is WRONG.

Now just a general rant - The number of people who attempt to frame discussions about assaults on women, in terms of what women wear and how they behave, is ignorance. It is a basic truth, a fundamental right, that a woman should be able to board public transport, no matter what they are wearing, without living in fear of being raped. Its nothing to do with scantily clad dress, you see women in veils and scarves being sexually attacked. Whenever people bring the issue of dress up, it results in women pandering to notions of their being responsible for rapes. Why don't the criminals refrain from acts of sexual depravity in the first place ?

Take Egypt for example. In 2008, a study by the Egyptian Centre for Women's Rights found that more than 80% of Egyptian women have experienced sexual harassment, and that the majority of the victims were those who wore Islamic headscarves. So there is no correlation between rape and the clothes a woman wears. People are mentioning television and film, is there really statistical evidence as to whether censorship actually has any effect on the rate of paedophilia/rape ? Many people fear forms of sexual dialogue in the media will somehow cause exploitation. The scientific data doesn't support that though. High-pornography-availability societies like Germany, Holland, Sweden, and Japan have much lower molest and rape rates than more restrictive societies like the US and Ireland. Plus misogyny and rape existed a long time before the likes of Bollywood (which I detest) and other forms of culture.

A bigger problem is sexual suppression. If society and culture deny people the opportunity/freedom of expressing their sexuality naturally - and respectfully - it creates a torrent of uncontrollable impulses which might lead to sexual violence, as well as a host of other negative behaviour (porn, prostitution etc) and unhappiness that impacts on society.

One of the ways to combat this is by statute. A law must be drafted by the Indian Parliament to make sure that any police officer who fails to act on a report of rape must be prosecuted, compulsory sexual education after the age of 13, and gender equality for newly-born children, so tough sentences on infanticide, female genital mutilation and abuse of female children. The judicial system also requires reform, so that the legal system is quick and doesn't not fail rape victims. Does India have a system of legal aid ? If not, there must be provisions in place so that female rape victims get access to legal representation.

I also read about the system of 'khap panchayats', they seem to be another layer of bureaucracy which enable atrocities against women to go almost unnoticed.

India has a huge opportunity to confront this societal evil whilst the iron is hot.
 
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I don't really watch Bollywood films but I can't say that of those I've seen many were liberating for women. Maybe I'm behind the times and things have changed but most seem vacuous and titillating rather than liberating. I'm not slating Bollywood here btw, there have been some very good ones among the dross which have their own charm.

I would say Indian entertainment needs to put as much emphasis on intelligence and worth of a woman rather than portraying them as dolly birds who flit around in skimpy outfits then realise the error of their ways and become the dutiful wife.

Again, I might be out of touch so correct me if I'm wrong.

It is ....we are seeing great women characters...more than we ever did the 70's to 90's..where women were restricted to being unidimensional slaves for their households...that I think was more harmfull exploitation of emotion...by almost alienating a gender from its emotions..and from its ambitiion to suit the society!!!!

Today..we see many characters...independent working women..and infact gone are the days where it women are very unidemensional in bollywood except some incredibly masala movies....housewives who are always taken for granted shown to be as great as anybody else in the real world...
 
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Is bollywood responsible in anyway for today's women situation in India?? Hell No....It is not in anyway !!!

Forget item numbers, and songs for a second.

What about how the women is often portrayed within the family in Bollywood? It's the typical bollywood love-story: a promiscuous guy falls in love with a well-mannered, respected woman. Essentially, this is advocating promiscuity for men, and docility for women. Think back to DDLJ, if you want an example.

Without a doubt, Bollywood has propagated sexism, and gender roles in India society. It may not be the root cause for them, but it has certainly helped reaffirmed such beliefs within society.

Of course, there may be exceptions, and I don't know how more recent films have handled this. But it has certainly played a role in the past, I can say that with confidence.
 
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Is bollywood responsible in anyway for today's women situation in India?? Hell No....It is not in anyway !!!


Tell me this...exploitation of an emotion in human is what cinema supposed to do !! now let us say a guy watched something is sexually high...and what is that makes him think he has the right to touch women coz he is sexually high?? the song or his prudish sexist upbringing???? We are all looking at the superficial things...the real issues is at the grass root level in the society..

what is stopping men stereotyping women based on the awesome female characters shown in movies...but they only do with sexually liberated characters....sexual fustration?? where does this sexual fustration come from...by attaching some kind of sacredness to the act of sex...

even in hollywood...lot of nakedness can be avoided..infact I strongly most nudity is not needed in cinema...if a director wants to say the same story in PG-13 way...it can be done..and now he chose to show nudity..to bring in more excitement....like any other emotions......same thing as item numbers.....I think they are no different from any sort of emotional exploitation movies do....I have seen movies that justify murder...

Today if somebody watched Sheila ki Jawani and went and raped a women..who is at fault here ?? men or sheila ki jawani?? how different is this arguement from men rape because women has wore skirt and it was revealing and he was sexually incited...I see no different really....if not cinema...he will get sexually high by some other thing and he will rape them...how do you stop it...by actually working on the society...but not cinema or dress the women !!

this cinema arguement almost is borderline rapist apologic in nature personally....


Read my post # 35 again, don't feel like repeating myself over and over, in short your are again confusing rape with an overall misogynistic attitude towards women in Indian society. Where have I said that Bollywood cause rapes, I'm saying it propagates misogyny, that is why I choose the title of the thread.
 
Going back to the excellent opening article - I definitely agree there are deep-rooted societal problems in India that must be resolved, simply hanging the perpetrators is not going to solve this issue.

Women seem to be treated as second-class citizens in all aspects.

Firstly, a cultural aspect. Why is it that people in India expect higher moral standards in women than men. This idea that women must be virgins to add to their 'marital value' - there doesn't seem to be that same level of expectation on the man to uphold such values of sexual integrity.

Secondly, the judicial system is failing women in India. There were more than 635 reported rapes in Delhi last year, but only one conviction. Last week a two-year-old girl was raped to death in Gujarat while the victim of another gang rape committed suicide. Her choice was to drop the charges or marry one of her attackers.

Thirdly, a lack of medical support for rape victims. There was one case where a rape victim had to undergo rather hideous tests in which the doctor tested a woman's private parts to see whether it was 'habituated to sexual intercourse'. There needs to be rehabilitation facilities, mental health programmes in which qualified professionals can examine and treat these vulnerable women who have suffered terrible acts of barbarism. Quite often these women end up with deep psychological scars and end up committing acts of self-harm and suicide.

Fourthly - institutional reforms, especially reforms to the police. Over the years, rape has become institutionalised in India and the authorities have either turned a blind eye or have been involved. There are numerous cases of women who have been raped, gone to the police, been put in police cells and then gang raped by the police officers which is reprehensible, so police reform is a must.

Fifthly - education. I don't think this needs to be explained. Educate young people at an early age so they know this kind of depravity is WRONG.

Now just a general rant - The number of people who attempt to frame discussions about assaults on women, in terms of what women wear and how they behave, is ignorance. It is a basic truth, a fundamental right, that a woman should be able to board public transport, no matter what they are wearing, without living in fear of being raped. Its nothing to do with scantily clad dress, you see women in veils and scarves being sexually attacked. Whenever people bring the issue of dress up, it results in women pandering to notions of their being responsible for rapes. Why don't the criminals refrain from acts of sexual depravity in the first place ?

Take Egypt for example. In 2008, a study by the Egyptian Centre for Women's Rights found that more than 80% of Egyptian women have experienced sexual harassment, and that the majority of the victims were those who wore Islamic headscarves. So there is no correlation between rape and the clothes a woman wears. People are mentioning television and film, is there really statistical evidence as to whether censorship actually has any effect on the rate of paedophilia/rape ? Many people fear forms of sexual dialogue in the media will somehow cause exploitation. The scientific data doesn't support that though. High-pornography-availability societies like Germany, Holland, Sweden, and Japan have much lower molest and rape rates than more restrictive societies like the US and Ireland. Plus misogyny and rape existed a long time before the likes of Bollywood (which I detest) and other forms of culture.

A bigger problem is sexual suppression. If society and culture deny people the opportunity/freedom of expressing their sexuality naturally - and respectfully - it creates a torrent of uncontrollable impulses which might lead to sexual violence, as well as a host of other negative behaviour (porn, prostitution etc) and unhappiness that impacts on society.

One of the ways to combat this is by statute. A law must be drafted by the Indian Parliament to make sure that any police officer who fails to act on a report of rape must be prosecuted, compulsory sexual education after the age of 13, and gender equality for newly-born children, so tough sentences on infanticide, female genital mutilation and abuse of female children. The judicial system also requires reform, so that the legal system is quick and doesn't not fail rape victims. Does India have a system of legal aid ? If not, there must be provisions in place so that female rape victims get access to legal representation.

I also read about the system of 'khap panchayats', they seem to be another layer of bureaucracy which enable atrocities against women to go almost unnoticed.

India has a huge opportunity to confront this societal evil whilst the iron is hot.


Awesome post..Agree with everything you said !!! at the bolded part..hope we do...I hope the poeople who have come out to protest in incredibly large numbers ...keep doing so untill something conrete comes from the governemt!!!

I think death penalty to rapists like honor killings are necessary...to create fear in the idiots in the first place....while I think rapists should not live...it also importantly may stop few women from getting raped......

but in general..it is the attitude of the society that has to be worked on..and that will take to change !!! judiciary too....and also the more people stop victimizing rape survivor....the more women will come forward to report it...

Khap panchayats are even now against death penalty for rape victims... :facepalm:
 
Forget item numbers, and songs for a second.

What about how the women is often portrayed within the family in Bollywood? It's the typical bollywood love-story: a promiscuous guy falls in love with a well-mannered, respected woman. Essentially, this is advocating promiscuity for men, and docility for women. Think back to DDLJ, if you want an example.

Without a doubt, Bollywood has propagated sexism, and gender roles in India society. It may not be the root cause for them, but it has certainly helped reaffirmed such beliefs within society.


Of course, there may be exceptions, and I don't know how more recent films have handled this. But it has certainly played a role in the past, I can say that with confidence.

Definately agree...that is what I am saying too.....bollywood exploited gender roles in the 70's to late 90's than it is doing now...since people give some kind of sacredness to sex...these things in the past are not seen as exploitation..but the now since it is more sexually liberated...now it is considered exploitation...it is hypocritical in one way ??I see these people actually being part of the problem actually...I think the movies from the 70's to 90's are actually more exploitiing in nature...as I said in my previous post....alienating women from their emotions and ambitions.......
 
another thing about this thread...when well meaning posters bring up such topics it leads to a proper discussion...if the resident trolls had come with their comments we would be seeing an india pakistan mud slinging match again.. so job well done!!
 
We've done this one before and it goes round and round in circles.

I would argue that covering women up makes men sexually frustrated, psychologically underdone and unable to converse with or understand women, whereas somebody else would argue that undressing women makes men more easily aroused, more animalistic in general, and unable to converse with or respect women.

Depends on the culture you've been brought up in and stuff.


Both are correct to a certain extent...

The best solution is somewhere in between.
 
what about the vast majority of men in the world ( including the west) who enjoy porn which shows women in very degrading situations. does that not contribute to misogyny ?

According to feminist theory, yes. Look up feminist pornography (I'm not joking, this is a thing).



EDIT: and just to clarify, by "look up," I mean research it! Kids, don't blame me if your mom catches you doing something dirty.
 
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Read my post # 35 again, don't feel like repeating myself over and over, in short your are again confusing rape with an overall misogynistic attitude towards women in Indian society. Where have I said that Bollywood cause rapes, I'm saying it propagates misogyny, that is why I choose the title of the thread.

Again....Bollywood shows women characters which are independent.....great women...shows women that can stand on their feet and are match to any men.....why is this view that bollywood is also spreading...not included as an attribute when men sit down and start spreading misogynistic attitude towards women??

why only when it is related to sexuality of women..that these men consider.....so what do we say...we completely alienate the sexual emotion in movies??? as we do in our society already?? DO you think a person who does not have moral compass to not touch a women..will change if the sexual emotion is tastefully done over item songs???? Coz I definately do not think so...you think the typical misogynistic Indian watched Kate winslet in reader any different than Katrina in Sheila ki Jawani coz it is in the plot?????

As I said man, We cannot look at these superficial things ....Bollywood does not spread anything IMO....our views are way deep rooted..if bollywood was so awesome in spreading views..we would have no honor killings...no religion...no casteism.....

Issues are more than bollywood...bollywood in the last decade has only been part of the solution than harm...harm was always there devoid of bollywood's precense!!
 
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Let me rephrase my question:

Is Bollywood responsible for propagating and maintaining misogyny in Indian society ?
 
people in here seriously implying if it weren't for Bollywood the rape cases in India would be down? Lmao. As if other 3rd world, conservative, poor/developing countries don't face the same issues as India when it comes to massive molestation/rape issues. India isn't any more misogynistic than any Islamic state out there. Indian culture offers the most freedom to a women if you want to get technical.

Remove Bollywood and keep the things the way they are. The rape % will be completely unhinged. There are more universal, deeprooted causes leading to sexual frustration in the low/poor class in India and its amazing the grown ups in here are still talking like its 1960s. One can't point a finger at a single cause like 'Remove/Change Bollywood to remove rapes' or 'Introduce death penalties and hang all evil tharki men until India is rape free'. Bull. Both of these will achieve nothing.



Faster and quicker responding policing system/network will help 10x more any both of those combined.

Severe crackdown on female foeticide issue specially in the lower class of India will help much more. The men-female ratio is so horribly skewed in India its mindboggling.

Limit/Ban on number of children the lower class can have. No more than 2 (the middle/upper classes aren't having more than 2 either anyways). Lower class children need more dedicated upbringing than they are getting now.


There's other things I'd like to say when if I do this post will most likely be deleted by some mod here. But growing up in USA for 6 years, I've come to appreciate the pros of an open, more liberal society which openly recognize the sexual nature of man, porn/sex isn't demonized to the extent like it is in Islamic/India, and hey, the rapes/harassment here are down and not an epidemic.
Certainly gives you something to think about, doesn't it?
 
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Bollywood is a masala industry. When it has to appeal to upwardly mobile middle class Indians, it portrays women as powerful, independent and in control. Even in those type of movies you end up with an item number here and there for no apparent reason. Why ?

Can Indians not watch a movie without an item number ?
 
Let me rephrase my question:

Is Bollywood responsible for propagating and maintaining misogyny in Indian society ?

Every misogynstic view in India has always decrease as time went by....and which was coincidental in the raise of bollywood too???

Do you think women the 1940's in India where better of than today?? Which view is bollywood specifically propogatging that is not deep rooted in the indian society!! Bollywood as an industry makes 400 + movies a year....so how do we generalize it..if a certain person only selects a few movies and then suits them to his need of sexism...whom do you blame here?????

Bollywood may be responsible for maintaining the misogyny till the 90's by completely alienating wonen from the outer world and emotions....but this sexuality in movies today has nothing to do with misogyny in India now....it is deep rooted..it is societal...we have always been like this and if anthing bollywood has helped people see women as free liberated women in the last decade!!!!!!!!

People chose what they spread....
 
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people in here seriously implying if it weren't for Bollywood the rape cases in India would be down? Lmao. As if other 3rd world, conservative, poor/developing countries don't face the same issues as India when it comes to massive molestation/rape issues. India isn't any more misogynistic than any Islamic state out there. Indian culture offers the most freedom to a women if you want to get technical.

Remove Bollywood and keep the things the way they are. The rape % will be completely unhinged. There are more universal, deeprooted causes leading to sexual frustration in the low/poor class in India and its amazing the grown ups in here are still talking like its 1960s. One can't point a finger at a single cause like 'Remove/Change Bollywood to remove rapes' or 'Introduce death penalties and hang all evil tharki men until India is rape free'. Bull. Both of these will achieve nothing.



Faster and quicker responding policing system/network will help 10x more any both of those combined.

Severe crackdown on female foeticide issue specially in the lower class of India will help much more. The men-female ratio is so horribly skewed in India its mindboggling.

Limit/Ban on number of children the lower class can have. No more than 2 (the middle/upper classes aren't having more than 2 either anyways). Lower class children need more dedicated upbringing than they are getting now.


There's other things I'd like to say when if I do this post will most likely be deleted by some mod here. But growing up in USA for 6 years, I've come to appreciate the pros of an open, more liberal society which openly recognize the sexual nature of man, porn/sex isn't demonized to the extent like it is in Islamic/India, and hey, the rapes/harassment here are down and not an epidemic. And most if not all Pakistanis and Indians are ready to always immigrate to the West while no one can say vice versa. Certainly gives you something to think about, doesn't it?

Exactly !!!!!! People are looking at what they want to see..and even that in a very very superficial way!!!!
 
another thing about this thread...when well meaning posters bring up such topics it leads to a proper discussion...if the resident trolls had come with their comments we would be seeing an india pakistan mud slinging match again.. so job well done!!

True !!!We like to say...look at the message and not the messenger...but it is very hard too..we would not have seen such a dicussion if it was not Saadibaba who started this thread!!!!
 
Can Indians not watch a movie without an item number ?

The answer is no.

Bollywood is an industry; the films are business ventures. They will show the things that bring the most profit. And sadly, Indian society want item numbers and such. In South Indian films especially, the highest grossing films will always have item numbers. So, in many ways, these films are reflections of society as well.
 
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I didnt read the article.But considering by responses,i agree that Females are often seen as second class.

The statements of the few politicians after the Delhi rape case made me feel ashamed as an Indian.
 
The answer is no.

Bollywood is an industry; the films are business ventures. They will show the things that bring the most profit. And sadly, Indian society want item numbers and such. In South Indian films especially, the highest grossing films will always have item numbers. So, in many ways, these films are reflections of society as well.

Great answer and I think for me at least the end of discussion.
 
Is Bollywood different from the tv industry? I ask because if I land on an Indian tv channel it's inevitably about some doe eyed housewife doting on her husband with an evil mother in law in the background.
 
Life imitating art imitating life.
 
Man is Physically stronger than Woman

Man created God.

Man created Religion

Man wrote the rules

Everything than humans have created is for the man to maintain his superiority and ego and control over the woman.

I am not bashing Men. I know how things work in Patriarchal society like India. Father is the head of the family. Father is the provider. Mother is there to bear children, cook and clean and raise young. This is how Men want women to be.

In a conservative society like India, when a man sees an attractive female, there is no concept of courting. Men do not have the Jamoons to ask the girl if she is interested. Even if some do ask, they cannot take no for an answer. By hook or crook, or even by force, man gets what he wants out of women. Some cowards even pour acid or simply rape the girl thinking that if they cannot get the girl nobody else should get her.

Our society is rotten to the core. No amount of security or policing can save women in India.

The change has to come at the grass root level. Man should also cook, clean and share the responsibility equally with women. Parents have to teach their children about equality right from childhood.

When kids are growing up, there should be 100% interaction between them. Making boys and girls sit in separate benches or locking them up in separate rooms will not help them when they grow old. That will only make these boys become creeps and perverts.
When these perversions become too much, some even attempt to force their might on women.

Unless parents start treating boys and girls as equals at home and allow them the freedom to do what they want, things will not change.

Holding candles or sending condolences emails is useless. It will be there for a few days and a new sensational news comes and people simply forget.
 
Markhor, you are my favorite poster on PP. Every time I read your post its like the most sensible thing a person could say and it always makes sense 100% of the time. I'm thinking about taking a day off and reading through all of your posts like a book to gain a lot of knowledge.
 
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Mostly agree with OP.
Some folks may not fully agree with it but I guess alcohol consumption also has some part to play behind such sad incidents. Once you get high, you cross that line between being a human with common sense/morals and an animal.
 
Mostly agree with OP.
Some folks may not fully agree with it but I guess alcohol consumption also has some part to play behind such sad incidents. Once you get high, you cross that line between being a human with common sense/morals and an animal.
 
Are people seriously going to blame item numbers for rape?...

I guess Grand Theft Auto causes people to kill too lol...

I agree patriarchy is an issue but is rape a general social problem or specific to patriarchal societies?...

Many Western societies have high rates of rape...Swedens often discussed for facing a rape epidemic...considering India's large population is India actually dealing with an epidemic or a moral panic?...

Rates of conviction are low everywhere unfortunately...and even in places like the US you get judges blaming women for being raped...

The media also generally love to focus on rapes done by strangers because essentially its something that preys on our fears...teachers for instance would get us worrying about our kids...to actually hear the truth which is that most rapes and incidents of abuse are committed by family members are less relateable for us and thus less focused on...and these sorts of problems exist everywhere...

In the UK 14,000 sexual assaults were reported in 2009...over 15,000 in 2011...and its argued that atleast 7 times as many as that might actually occur...and this is in a country that is supposed to be liberal...

I think all societies have issues with sexual abuse...

Researchers from the University of Surrey have revealed that commonly-held attitudes towards rape are stopping women reporting incidents of sexual assault and stopping attackers from being convicted.

Fear of not being believed, not wanting to get their attacker - who is often known to them - into trouble and a sense that they could or should have avoided the assault mean only a fraction of rape cases are being reported. Of those reported, 50-66% are dropped by police, and of the remaining cases that go on to be considered by the Crown Prosecution Service, 33-50% are discontinued.

About 14,000 cases were reported last year to police, but academics suggest there to be seven times as many unreported cases. Professor Jennifer Brown and Dr Miranda Horvath from the University of Surrey’s Department of Psychology have been examining the shocking statistics through funding made available by the British Psychological Society. They assembled a group of international academics to review current research findings relating to the problem of ‘attrition’ – when victims are reluctant to report rape in the first instance, police choose not to pursue cases, prosecutors drop referred cased before trial, and jurors prefer to acquit than find defendants guilty.
 
This is from the British Home Office:

The long-term commitment to combat and prevent this issue is fully justified. In the last year alone, there were over 1 million female victims of domestic abuse in England and Wales. Around 400,000 women are sexually assaulted and 80,000 women are raped each year. In the UK, more than one in four women will experience domestic abuse since the age of 16 years old, often with years of psychological abuse.

Key Statistics

Around two thirds (63%) of all incidents of domestic violence were experienced by repeat victims of the victims interviewed, a third (32%) were victimised more than once and 20 per cent were victimised three or more times;
Seven per cent of women and five per cent of men reported having experienced any domestic violence in 2011/12;
1 in 4 women will suffer domestic violence in their lifetimes;
In 2010/11 21 men and 93 women were killed by a partner, ex-partner or lover;
The 2010/11 CSEW estimates: It is estimated 60,000 women have been raped in the last year, and;
Over 300,000 women have been sexually assaulted in the last year.
The 2010/11 CSEW found that after the age of 16, stalking affects around one in six (18%) women and one in eleven (9%) men.
In 2011, the Forced Marriage Unit provided advice or support in almost 1500 cases, but we know that this does not reflect the full scale of the abuse, and many more cases are not reported. Research carried out by the then Department for Children, Schools and Families in 2009 estimated that a national prevalence of reported cases of forced marriage in England was between 5000 and 8000.

Worldwide problem or not?...


http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crime/violence-against-women-girls/strategic-vision/
 
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