Is Misbah-ul-Haq the absolute worse thing to happen to Pakistan cricket ever?

[The_KING]

Oh look Misbah haters back to blame him again. They will still be blaming him in 50 years time. Absolutely pathetic lol.

 

[shariqnoor]

Coke Zero

What is your issue with getting to the crux of the matter?

The fact that you have to continuously resort to below the belt remarks to make your point shows nothing but your inability to reason coherently.

I don't understand how you are still not banned from this forum.

 

[Rana]

The fact that you have to continuously resort to below the belt remarks to make your point shows nothing but your inability to reason coherently.

I don't understand how you are still not banned from this forum.

What is the definition of reasoning coherently here? Bhens ke aage been bajana? 2 years…2 years I have tried to reason with you fans, with you Misbah apologists at how this team is heading the wrong direction. You all praised and loved the wrong player, the wrong person! You all abused and ridiculed those who wanted to speak the truth and show you the light!

What is left now of coherent arguments? The time for that is over! Pakistan will lose another T20 tournament, and some players will come out of it with runs behind their name at a sr of 120. And you fans, you Misbah apologists will all applaud him and look to scapegoat others!

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Misbah was a serial match losing choker, an especially cowardly white ball cricketer and someone whose understanding of the game was of the level of a novice - made him one if the worst coaches + Chief selectors of all time.

Having said that, anyone looking to blame Misbah for the current team's fortunes is just venting or looking for a convenient scapegoat.

 

[shariqnoor]

What is the definition of reasoning coherently here? Bhens ke aage been bajana? 2 years…2 years I have tried to reason with you fans, with you Misbah apologists at how this team is heading the wrong direction. You all praised and loved the wrong player, the wrong person! You all abused and ridiculed those who wanted to speak the truth and show you the light!

What is left now of coherent arguments? The time for that is over! Pakistan will lose another T20 tournament, and some players will come out of it with runs behind their name at a sr of 120. And you fans, you Misbah apologists will all applaud him and look to scapegoat others!

Hard to take you seriously when the alternative you suggest has an inferior strike rate in the power play and cannot last more than 2 overs 8 times out of 10. Least of all when you advocate for a spot fixer. One of the reason why Pakistan is in an economic mess is when people in the society don't criminalize corruption and are open to reintegrating corrupt people in the society,

 

[Rana]

Hard to take you seriously when the alternative you suggest has an inferior strike rate in the power play and cannot last more than 2 overs 8 times out of 10. Least of all when you advocate for a spot fixer. One of the reason why Pakistan is in an economic mess is when people in the society don't criminalize corruption and are open to reintegrating corrupt people in the society,

So what do you suggest we do? Crucify Sharjeel? Banish him to an island where he cannot reintegrate into society? Peadophiles, murders, tax frauds are running free in Pakistan having been caught or not caught but one man who has served his punishment and has potentially repented to God for it shouldn’t be reintegrated? You may or may not follow the Islamic concept of forgiveness but the Prophet s.a has forgiven and allowed some people to enter Islam and become an integral part of Islamic society even though they did a lot of personal harm to him at the time when he was powerless.

Yesterday Rizwan scored 54 off 46

Right now, Sharjeel scored 107* off 62. I’m not advocating for the wrong person

 

[TheSultan]

There was a discussion on another thread about Misbah’s contribution to the 2009 T20 WC win. Don’t want to derail that thread so creating a new one

Can anyone point out what Misbah actually did in that World Cup?

I don’t expect this to be a long thread

 

[Rana]

There was a discussion on another thread about Misbah’s contribution to the 2009 T20 WC win. Don’t want to derail that thread so creating a new one

Can anyone point out what Misbah actually did in that World Cup?

I don’t expect this to be a long thread

He served as a reminder of what not to do when it mattered.

 

[Technics 1210]

There was a discussion on another thread about Misbah’s contribution to the 2009 T20 WC win. Don’t want to derail that thread so creating a new one

Can anyone point out what Misbah actually did in that World Cup?

I don’t expect this to be a long thread

AHhh - Misbah!

He did hit 2 sixes in the 2009 WC for what it's worth, but don't think he did anything else of note.

I'm pretty sure he packed in T20s mentality after the 2007 final scarred him, I would say for his entire cricketing career! Tuk Tuk was born after the 2007 WC final loss.

He never really contributed to white ball cricket after that.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

He didn't do much.

His game in T20 completely changed after that shot to Sharma.

In 07 up until that ball he had one of the best runs by a Pakistani batter in an ICC tournament, but I think the way he got out punctured his spirit big time in the format.

He still occasionally gave glimpses of his old self but in 09 he was a footnote..same as Fawad Alam.

09 was all Gul and Afridi.

 

[The_KING]

Misbah should have never played T20s after 2009 and should have never played ODIs after the 2011 world cup.

 

[RizwanT20Champ]

I can see why Misbah is disliked by some but in retrospect Misbah is one of our heroes. If you want to build a team from scratch you need honest triers and leaders like Misbah, Rizwan, etc.

 

[TheSultan]

I don’t think he changed his game post 2007. That was his game.

Even in that infamous final in 2007, his strike rate was poor to begin with and he was playing his usual nightwatchman innings. When the pressure was completely off he chanced his arm and hit out. He wasn’t expecting much from the other end and was going to hoodwink his way to - “look I tried but no one helped me” - the whole “bichara” sob story of his career.

Enter Sohail Tanvir and his two unexpected sixes made the target achievable. Then, with the pressure back on, Misbah choked trying that pathetically executed scoop.

Nah, he was the same Misbah, in the drama, created primarily by Sohail Tanvir’s cameo, everyone forgot about Misbah’s pathetic strike rate in the early part of his innings.

 

[Major]

He didn't do much.

His game in T20 completely changed after that shot to Sharma.

In 07 up until that ball he had one of the best runs by a Pakistani batter in an ICC tournament, but I think the way he got out punctured his spirit big time in the format.

He still occasionally gave glimpses of his old self but in 09 he was a footnote..same as Fawad Alam.

09 was all Gul and Afridi.

Sorry i disagree.

His game was always the same. The only thing he changed due to that 2007 shot was he stopped playing the scope shot. Infact, he stopped playing that scope shot after the India series we had i think near the end of 2007 or start of 2008. Because in that series, he was again not able to get a proper grip on that shot.

His t20 game was always like this. Fully attacking spinners and than was able to attack the pacers aswell. He was good enough to play t20 cricket, as his fitness was good and was scoring runs for the Wolves. He was a one man army for Wolves.

His game playing was flawed because even the singles and doubles Misbah made he put too much effort in it cause his batting was not as good as someone like Babar. But still he made it work and raked up runs. He was never good against the new ball. People think he regressed, but it was more like he started to face more the of new ball post 2010.

Retiring in 2012 from T20 kind of saved his career. Even though that was forced from Zaka Ashraf because Zaka cared about how the media viewed him, but when Misbah retired from t20, some of the attention that was on him was removed and he was than able to play till 2015.

As for 2009, the netherlands game he kind of saved it as we almost bottled that one. But towards the knock out, he didnt need to bat as Afridi awoke his inner beast.


Anyways, the reason why @TheSultan bumped this thread is because he is a Shoaib Akhtar fan and because Shoaib Akhtar failed to win an icc trophy, he is now bashing Misbah and trying to come up flawed logics because he cant make the claim Misbah didnt win an ICC Trophy.

 

[Major]

I can see why Misbah is disliked by some but in retrospect Misbah is one of our heroes. If you want to build a team from scratch you need honest triers and leaders like Misbah, Rizwan, etc.

Basically when one of these posters get defeated in an argument, they run towards a Misbah thread lol.

@TheSultan lost the argument where i told him Akhtar never won an ICC trophy. He than went on about how 1999 he wouldve won, and he couldnt say that Misbah never won (even though i didnt mention or bought it up), so now he is trying to find faults in the ICC trophy that Misbah did win.

 

[Rana]

Basically when one of these posters get defeated in an argument, they run towards a Misbah thread lol.

@TheSultan lost the argument where i told him Akhtar never won an ICC trophy. He than went on about how 1999 he wouldve won, and he couldnt say that Misbah never won (even though i didnt mention or bought it up), so now he is trying to find faults in the ICC trophy that Misbah did win.

But then you defeat your own argument when you have to admit Kamran Akmal was a greater T20 keeper batsman than Rizwan.

Damm hai tou admit Kar!

 

[TheSultan]

Sorry i disagree.

His game was always the same. The only thing he changed due to that 2007 shot was he stopped playing the scope shot. Infact, he stopped playing that scope shot after the India series we had i think near the end of 2007 or start of 2008. Because in that series, he was again not able to get a proper grip on that shot.

His t20 game was always like this. Fully attacking spinners and than was able to attack the pacers aswell. He was good enough to play t20 cricket, as his fitness was good and was scoring runs for the Wolves. He was a one man army for Wolves.

His game playing was flawed because even the singles and doubles Misbah made he put too much effort in it cause his batting was not as good as someone like Babar. But still he made it work and raked up runs. He was never good against the new ball. People think he regressed, but it was more like he started to face more the of new ball post 2010.

Retiring in 2012 from T20 kind of saved his career. Even though that was forced from Zaka Ashraf because Zaka cared about how the media viewed him, but when Misbah retired from t20, some of the attention that was on him was removed and he was than able to play till 2015.

As for 2009, the netherlands game he kind of saved it as we almost bottled that one. But towards the knock out, he didnt need to bat as Afridi awoke his inner beast.


Anyways, the reason why @TheSultan bumped this thread is because he is a Shoaib Akhtar fan and because Shoaib Akhtar failed to win an icc trophy, he is now bashing Misbah and trying to come up flawed logics because he cant make the claim Misbah didnt win an ICC Trophy.

I didn’t bump this thread beti, I created a new one without derailing the other one as one of the mods said this thread is not about Misbah.

We can continue about shoaib on the other one.

We can destroy misbah here - deal?

 

[Major]

But then you defeat your own argument when you have to admit Kamran Akmal was a greater T20 keeper batsman than Rizwan.

Damm hai tou admit Kar!

Kamran akmal has offcourse achieved more than Rizwan by winning an icc trophy and so has Sarfraz Ahmed aswell. Sarfraz infact won it as captain, so bigger achievement for him

Your point being?

 

[Snowflake]

Definitely one, if not the worst. Thing is, his influence didn’t just stop when he retired. His entire stint in management was horrible too.

 

[topspin]

Definitely one, if not the worst. Thing is, his influence didn’t just stop when he retired. His entire stint in management was horrible too.

This is the thing, when others mention this they get accused of having a an agenda when really and truly we care for the greater good of Pakistan cricket.

 

[topspin]

He served as a reminder of what not to do when it mattered.

Well put. Happened in Mohali as well during the 2011 World Cup. Lightening does strike twice.

 

[Rana]

Well put. Happened in Mohali as well during the 2011 World Cup. Lightening does strike twice.

He also has a legacy of giving Pakistan his type of cricketers…who go on to do similar betrayals as he did on the world stage

 

[topspin]

Basically when one of these posters get defeated in an argument, they run towards a Misbah thread lol.

@TheSultan lost the argument where i told him Akhtar never won an ICC trophy. He than went on about how 1999 he wouldve won, and he couldnt say that Misbah never won (even though i didnt mention or bought it up), so now he is trying to find faults in the ICC trophy that Misbah did win.

Sorry but @Rana and I ripped the merits of this argument to shreds.

As mentioned by Rana, Dale Steyn has zero ICC trophies. So tell us does that make Misbah a greater player than him? All I’m doing is following your logic and train of thought.

 

[Rana]

Tbf to him I can still forgive him for that 2007 bongi. It’s fine, we made a big mess of that chase and he did smash Harbajhan for a 20+ run over to bring us back in the game.

The Mohali chase was terrible. That was depressing. How are you coming back to the dug out with a 50 batting as a top order player and the team still needs 30 odd to win? That’s rubbish!

Then he gave Pakistan the tohfa of Rizwan. By doing this, he has incurred an eternal amount of hate and baddua for his actions and influence. This move destroyed Pakistan cricket to the core!

 

[TheSultan]

Basically when one of these posters get defeated in an argument, they run towards a Misbah thread lol.

@TheSultan lost the argument where i told him Akhtar never won an ICC trophy. He than went on about how 1999 he wouldve won, and he couldnt say that Misbah never won (even though i didnt mention or bought it up), so now he is trying to find faults in the ICC trophy that Misbah did win.

Yea what a great argument.

Marshall - part of the 1979 squad but didn’t play a single game. Let’s discount his whole career cos he didn’t technically win an “ICC trophy”. Who knows you probably credit him with that victory as the love of your life was a passenger in 2009 too.

Dale who - never won an ICC trophy, throw him in the trash heap. Aqib Javed is automatically a better bowler, same with Tom Moody and Reiffel / Fleming

Fawad Alam and Misbah achieved more than Jacques Kallis.

I mean cheers mate what a bloody good argument

 

[Rana]

Sorry but @Rana and I ripped the merits of this argument to shreds.

As mentioned by Rana, Dale Steyn has zero ICC trophies. So tell us does that make Misbah a greater player than him? All I’m doing is following your logic and train of thought.

It’s like saying Misbah is a greater batter than Jacque Kallis. Anyone who claims this will be sent to a category A jail as Markhor alluded to.

 

[topspin]

Tbf to him I can still forgive him for that 2007 bongi. It’s fine, we made a big mess of that chase and he did smash Harbajhan for a 20+ run over to bring us back in the game.

Agreed

The Mohali chase was terrible. That was depressing. How are you coming back to the dug out with a 50 batting as a top order player and the team still needs 30 odd to win? That’s rubbish!

Then he gave Pakistan the tohfa of Rizwan. By doing this, he has incurred an eternal amount of hate and baddua for his actions and influence. This move destroyed Pakistan cricket to the core!

Not only did he play selfishly in that chase but he chose to continue his white ball career.

Pakistan then had their worst ever showing in an ICC tournament during the 2013 CT where they all lost their games but he still shamelessly clung on to his place in the side as both player and captain.

 

[topspin]

Yea what a great argument.

Marshall - part of the 1979 squad but didn’t play a single game. Let’s discount his whole career cos he didn’t technically win an “ICC trophy”. Who knows you probably credit him with that victory as the love of your life was a passenger in 2009 too.

Dale who - never won an ICC trophy, throw him in the trash heap. Aqib Javed is automatically a better bowler, same with Tom Moody and Reiffel / Fleming

Fawad Alam and Misbah achieved more than Jacques Kallis.

I mean cheers mate what a bloody good argument

It’s like saying Misbah is a greater batter than Jacque Kallis. Anyone who claims this will be sent to a category A jail as Markhor alluded to.

The reality is this level of obsession for Misbah (which believe me goes well beyond the realm of cricket) shows the level of intellect that these Pro-Misbah supporters possess.

 

[Rana]

@Major honest question to see your thought process,

Ponting has won 3 ICC 50 over world cups+ years of Test dominance as captain/player

Tendulkar has 1 World Cup. Lara has 1 CT win. Kallis has nothing to his name. (I don’t think the tied CT 2000 counts).

Who do you think Ponting, one of the GOAT cricketing minds and players of cricket rates the highest out of Lara, Kallis and Tendulkar?

 

[topspin]

Also, Major is shifting his goalposts and contradicting his own methodology of ranking players.

Let’s remember this guy once claimed Misbah > Inzamam in white ball cricket.

But he’s now using ICC trophies to justify why Misbah > Shoaib Akhtar.

The funny thing is Inzamam has a won an ODI WC, which is bigger than Misbah’s career.

As much as I love Younis Khan, Pakistan’s 2009 WT20 win doesn’t come close to the 1992 heroics.

This tells us everything we need to know about the credibility of Misbah’s no.1 fan when it comes to the analysis of cricket.

 

[Rana]

Also, Major is shifting his goalposts and contradicting his own methodology of ranking players.

Let’s remember this guy once claimed Misbah > Inzamam in white ball cricket.

But he’s now using ICC trophies to justify why Misbah > Shoaib Akhtar.

The funny thing is Inzamam has a won an ODI WC, which is bigger than Misbah’s career.

As much as I love Younis Khan, Pakistan’s 2009 WT20 win doesn’t come close to the 1992 heroics.

This tells us everything we need to know about the credibility of Misbah’s no.1 fan when it comes to the analysis of cricket.

Do you remember @shaz619 ’s Kamran v Rizwan thread. I’m sure if I bump it up, you will find Major rating Rizwan higher than Kamran even though Kamran is a decorated T20 champion cricketer in International and Franchise cricket

 

[Major]

Yea what a great argument.

Marshall - part of the 1979 squad but didn’t play a single game. Let’s discount his whole career cos he didn’t technically win an “ICC trophy”. Who knows you probably credit him with that victory as the love of your life was a passenger in 2009 too.

Dale who - never won an ICC trophy, throw him in the trash heap. Aqib Javed is automatically a better bowler, same with Tom Moody and Reiffel / Fleming

Fawad Alam and Misbah achieved more than Jacques Kallis.

I mean cheers mate what a bloody good argument

If Marshall was part of the 1979 World Cup squad than he did win the ICC trophy.

No matter how you look at it, your Akhtar looks bad. Give it a rest. You are coming up with poor arguments.

 

[BouncerGuy]

GUYS, PLEASE STAY ON TOPIC AND NO PERSONAL REMARKS NOW

 

[Mobashir]

Yes he is.
No second toughts to it.

 

[RizwanT20Champ]

Basically when one of these posters get defeated in an argument, they run towards a Misbah thread lol.

@TheSultan lost the argument where i told him Akhtar never won an ICC trophy. He than went on about how 1999 he wouldve won, and he couldnt say that Misbah never won (even though i didnt mention or bought it up), so now he is trying to find faults in the ICC trophy that Misbah did win.

@Major honest question to see your thought process,

Ponting has won 3 ICC 50 over world cups+ years of Test dominance as captain/player

Tendulkar has 1 World Cup. Lara has 1 CT win. Kallis has nothing to his name. (I don’t think the tied CT 2000 counts).

Who do you think Ponting, one of the GOAT cricketing minds and players of cricket rates the highest out of Lara, Kallis and Tendulkar?

I don't fully agree with Major's reasoning here about ICC Trophy automatically making someone better. It is the kind of thing @saimayubera spams on end. But, Rana bro, Kallis does have an ICC Trophy in 1998....he was actually player of the match..it was not the CT 2000 that was tied...India got smashed by NZ there. You are thinking of the 2002 CT which was tied which Tenda was a part of I guess.

 

[shaz619]

Do you remember @shaz619 ’s Kamran v Rizwan thread. I’m sure if I bump it up, you will find Major rating Rizwan higher than Kamran even though Kamran is a decorated T20 champion cricketer in International and Franchise cricket

The Misbah zoids are wired a special way, there is little comparison between the two, even when we launched that RR during lipstick queen’s so called purple patch

 

[Rana]

I don't fully agree with Major's reasoning here about ICC Trophy automatically making someone better. It is the kind of thing @saimayubera spams on end. But, Rana bro, Kallis does have an ICC Trophy in 1998....he was actually player of the match..it was not the CT 2000 that was tied...India got smashed by NZ there. You are thinking of the 2002 CT which was tied which Tenda was a part of I guess.

I wasnt aware Kallis does have an ICC trophy. Clearly whatever achievement it was so irrelevant to his actual stature as probably the Greatest cricketer ever and a top tier Batter in an era of Pontin, Lara and Tendulkar.

 

[mominsaigol]

I wasnt aware Kallis does have an ICC trophy. Clearly whatever achievement it was so irrelevant to his actual stature as probably the Greatest cricketer ever and a top tier Batter in an era of Pontin, Lara and Tendulkar.

Kallis as a cricketer is > Lara and Tendulkar.

But below Ponting. You just can't beat his triple title icc run, his longest win streak + him being so dominant that sides celebrating one off home test series victory as the greatest achievement of their careers.

To top it off, he stands > every aussie batsmen in terms of statistics and achievements in tests and Odi.

I think Steve smith and Bradman are the only ones ahead of him in test cricket with Hayden being = in only certain dens but not all.

And in odi he is Australia's greatest odi batsmen period.

Lastly Ponting's peak even as a player is unmatched. He avg 61 in tests in his prime and was massively > everyone with only Prime Steve Smith surpassing him with an avg of 66.

He has notable 100's including a wc final 100 which cements his legacy.

Very difficult to beat that. Kallis is no 2 imo from this list.

 

[TheSultan]

If Marshall was part of the 1979 World Cup squad than he did win the ICC trophy.

No matter how you look at it, your Akhtar looks bad. Give it a rest. You are coming up with poor arguments.

Ok genius - I think we’ve estabilished the “validity” of your argument.

 

[Major]

when posters start losing an argument, they have to resort to personal attacks lol>

If you cant argue, than dont reply to me thanks.

 

[mominsaigol]

If Marshall was part of the 1979 World Cup squad than he did win the ICC trophy.

No matter how you look at it, your Akhtar looks bad. Give it a rest. You are coming up with poor arguments.

Marshall didn't play a single game though? By this logic Ahmad Shahzad won CT 2017 for PK by being Fakhar's water boy in the final?

But the rest is agree with. Marshall is the greatest test bowler of all time, slightly ahead of Mcgrath even.

Zero comparisons with Akhtar. Akhtar as a bowler is average. Better then out current crop and his pacy fingers have gotten the better of elite batters as well but he isn't even better then Junaid Khan or Umar Gul.

Waqar is out his league and wasim + Imran are entire pantheon > him.

 

[mominsaigol]

@Major

Bro why is Marshall vs Akhtar being discussed? I didn't read the above comments yet.

Their is zero comparisons between the 2 .

Marshall lacking any impact in trophy wins doesn't mean anything. He is an atg Odi bowler although in odi he isn't top 5 and is behind many in the pecking order,

And in tests he is no 1 period.

Tests or Odi, doesnt matter, Marshall is leagues > Akhtar.

Akhtar is only relevant due to speed gun record. His tests stats are a joke and his odi numbers are decent. Their good odi stats but their nothing stellar.

Brett Lee was a better bowler then Akhtar and he was faster then Akhtar as well. Akhtar bowled the fastest delivery yes but lee consistently clocked at higher speeds on average.

 

[Major]

@Major

Bro why is Marshall vs Akhtar being discussed? I didn't read the above comments yet.

Their is zero comparisons between the 2 .

Marshall lacking any impact in trophy wins doesn't mean anything. He is an atg Odi bowler although in odi he isn't top 5 and is behind many in the pecking order,

And in tests he is no 1 period.

Tests or Odi, doesnt matter, Marshall is leagues > Akhtar.

Akhtar is only relevant due to speed gun record. His tests stats are a joke and his odi numbers are decent. Their good odi stats but their nothing stellar.

Brett Lee was a better bowler then Akhtar and he was faster then Akhtar as well. Akhtar bowled the fastest delivery yes but lee consistently clocked at higher speeds on average.

Sir the issue is. @TheSultan was arguing on the Akhtar thread and i told him he has no icc trophies so i dont really value him that much. Now he got annoyed with that. Alot of the posters know i used to support Misbah, so when they lose any argument they start attacking Misbah lol.

Now issue is, Misbah has a Test Mace and won the World T20 2009. So Our SUltan bhai was losing it compeltely, so now he had to bump the Misbah thread to bash him just to feel himself better about Akhtar.

SO he has come up with the these excuses that oh Akhtar would had won 1999, Marshal did nothning why he has a medal.

So he just wants to prove Akhtar matters

 

[mominsaigol]

Sir the issue is. @TheSultan was arguing on the Akhtar thread and i told him he has no icc trophies so i dont really value him that much. Now he got annoyed with that. Alot of the posters know i used to support Misbah, so when they lose any argument they start attacking Misbah lol.

Now issue is, Misbah has a Test Mace and won the World T20 2009. So Our SUltan bhai was losing it compeltely, so now he had to bump the Misbah thread to bash him just to feel himself better about Akhtar.

SO he has come up with the these excuses that oh Akhtar would had won 1999, Marshal did nothning why he has a medal.

So he just wants to prove Akhtar matters

Misbah is overhated due to odi and t20 and coaching as a result. I don't get into this drama anymore.

I now only present facts. Misbah is a killer test captain and arguably Pakistan's greatest or 2nd greatest. But a rubbish odi and t20 equivalent. Regardless topic isnt about Misbah and its irritating when people divert topics. Indian posters do it all the time.

Now coming back to Akhtar, not winning a trophy is unfair as it depends on the team and not one person. At best one person like maxwell can solo win one game but they cant solo win every game which is where head, Marsh and many others come in.

However as a player Akhtar is medicore. The only thing that seprates Akhtar from an average bowler like Siraj is that he is freakishly fast but thats about it.

Brett Lee is superior to Akhtar in every way excluding the fastest delivery. He on average bowled faster, had better line and length and took crucial wickets against every opposition.

However not winning a trophy should not be the only criteria, a person's own performance matters. Sometimes its out of your hands. Wahab riaz took 5 wickets in 2011 yet Pakistan lost. He isnt exactly at fault now is he?

 

[TheSultan]

@Major

Bro why is Marshall vs Akhtar being discussed? I didn't read the above comments yet.

Their is zero comparisons between the 2 .

Marshall lacking any impact in trophy wins doesn't mean anything. He is an atg Odi bowler although in odi he isn't top 5 and is behind many in the pecking order,

And in tests he is no 1 period.

Tests or Odi, doesnt matter, Marshall is leagues > Akhtar.

Akhtar is only relevant due to speed gun record. His tests stats are a joke and his odi numbers are decent. Their good odi stats but their nothing stellar.

Brett Lee was a better bowler then Akhtar and he was faster then Akhtar as well. Akhtar bowled the fastest delivery yes but lee consistently clocked at higher speeds on average.

No one is comparing Marshall with Shoaib. We’re talking about warped logic of using ICC trophies as a barometer of success. I was saying ok, so you don’t rate Marshall then cos he didn’t play in the 1979 squad that won the World Cup. Do we discount everything else the GOAT did?

Follow the discussion bro it will make sense.

I do think you’re wrong about Shoaib though. Unfortunately you’ve probably been fed the casual line of “Shoaib was all pace and nothing else”.

Your comparison with Brett Lee is wrong too. The only thing Brett had over Shoaib was is longevity.

That is not true at all and has been discussed in the Shoaib thread.

 

[dravidthewall]

Misbah injected tuk tuk mentality in pak, that never able to comeout from that still

 

[mominsaigol]

No one is comparing Marshall with Shoaib. We’re talking about warped logic of using ICC trophies as a barometer of success. I was saying ok, so you don’t rate Marshall then cos he didn’t play in the 1979 squad that won the World Cup. Do we discount everything else the GOAT did?

Follow the discussion bro it will make sense.

I do think you’re wrong about Shoaib though. Unfortunately you’ve probably been fed the casual line of “Shoaib was all pace and nothing else”.

Your comparison with Brett Lee is wrong too. The only thing Brett had over Shoaib was is longevity.

That is not true at all and has been discussed in the Shoaib thread.

I agree with your first point and already countered @Major On this.

Here is what I said.

However not winning a trophy should not be the only criteria, a person's own performance matters. Sometimes its out of your hands. Wahab riaz took 5 wickets in 2011 yet Pakistan lost. He isnt exactly at fault now is he?

Now about Sohaib Akhtar, he is a good odi bowler and a bang avg test cricketer. However he is badly overrated. Lee is a crap test bowler but he is easily > Akhtar in odi. Has more wickets, more peak wc moments and a better avg + economy.

Akhtar comes in the good bowlers category and logically belongs in Umar Gul and Junaid category but below Amir and vastly below waqar, wasim and imran.

People tend to equate waqar, wasim and sohaib as a trio but sohaib status wise does not reach.

I havent been fed anything by Indians. Infact I tear them apart in a daily basis. No one spreads more lies then those buggers. However indians being wrong about Sohaib but going into extremities =/= me being wrong about sohaib.

Akhtar is a good bowler but thats about it.

 

[mominsaigol]

Misbah injected tuk tuk mentality in pak, that never able to comeout from that still

Agreed he destroyed the odi and t20 team. Should have juat stayed a test captain and Pakistan would view him as an atg.

His ego ruined his reputation when he had no business in whiteball

 

[Rana]

I agree with your first point and already countered @Major On this.

Here is what I said.

However not winning a trophy should not be the only criteria, a person's own performance matters. Sometimes its out of your hands. Wahab riaz took 5 wickets in 2011 yet Pakistan lost. He isnt exactly at fault now is he?

Now about Sohaib Akhtar, he is a good odi bowler and a bang avg test cricketer. However he is badly overrated. Lee is a crap test bowler but he is easily > Akhtar in odi. Has more wickets, more peak wc moments and a better avg + economy.

Akhtar comes in the good bowlers category and logically belongs in Umar Gul and Junaid category but below Amir and vastly below waqar, wasim and imran.

People tend to equate waqar, wasim and sohaib as a trio but sohaib status wise does not reach.

I havent been fed anything by Indians. Infact I tear them apart in a daily basis. No one spreads more lies then those buggers. However indians being wrong about Sohaib but going into extremities =/= me being wrong about sohaib.

Akhtar is a good bowler but thats about it.

Bro I’m not sure you saw him bowl. Akhtar was a top bowler. Premier level. He rightly made the World XI white ball side by the ICC to face Australia at the time. I think it was him, Pollock and Flintoff as the pace attack.

The PCB did a lot of campaigning to get Inzimam selected for the Test side even though he wasn’t picked originally (and rightly so I believe), but Shoaib and Afridi made the ODI side on merit.

If I am to compare Shoaib’s caliber to bowlers now…I think his value and impact can be compared to Jofra Archer. On top of it the guy was a genuine superstar. No fake personality. He was a certified A lister/brand as they say.

Brett Lee was an excellent athlete and full cricketer who offered a lot with the bat too. Shoaib was not anywhere near in terms of that value. As bowlers man to man, I think Shoaib had his work cut out spearheading the attack after Wasim Akram retired in 2003. Shoaib had to lead and I thought he did it very well.

You need to realise that Lee had McGrath doing a lot of mental disintegration of batters for him at the other end, and Lee was benefiting a lot from this. No doubt Lee was still a top bowler and superstar himself but I think many people would agree Akhtar was a superior Test match seamer to Lee even though he has 120 wickets fewer than he did.

 

[shamaan]

Shoaib is better than Lee 100%

 

[mominsaigol]

Bro I’m not sure you saw him bowl. Akhtar was a top bowler. Premier level. He rightly made the World XI white ball side by the ICC to face Australia at the time. I think it was him, Pollock and Flintoff as the pace attack.

The PCB did a lot of campaigning to get Inzimam selected for the Test side even though he wasn’t picked originally (and rightly so I believe), but Shoaib and Afridi made the ODI side on merit.

If I am to compare Shoaib’s caliber to bowlers now…I think his value and impact can be compared to Jofra Archer. On top of it the guy was a genuine superstar. No fake personality. He was a certified A lister/brand as they say.

Brett Lee was an excellent athlete and full cricketer who offered a lot with the bat too. Shoaib was not anywhere near in terms of that value. As bowlers man to man, I think Shoaib had his work cut out spearheading the attack after Wasim Akram retired in 2003. Shoaib had to lead and I thought he did it very well.

You need to realise that Lee had McGrath doing a lot of mental disintegration of batters for him at the other end, and Lee was benefiting a lot from this. No doubt Lee was still a top bowler and superstar himself but I think many people would agree Akhtar was a superior Test match seamer to Lee even though he has 120 wickets fewer than he did.

You need to realise that Lee had McGrath doing a lot of mental disintegration of batters for him at the other end, and Lee was benefiting a lot from this.

I can't beat this argument. You and @TheSultan are correct and I change my mind about Akhtar.

I respectfully concede here however just illustrating, I have seen Akhtar bowl and have seen full matches, but I haven't seen his era. I remember dr bassim told me it's much harder to tell how good a player is if you didnt live in their era.

That's why my knowledge on players in this current gen have superior qualititative analysis then old gen players.

I'm not that great when it comes to pre 2010 era which is why you often see me fumbling in topics such as Ramiz vs Shan etc etc.

I do have knowledge about Ponting, Gilly, Hayden and mcgrath though as I followed them more closely then anyone else, era or not.

 

[mominsaigol]

Shoaib is better than Lee 100%

I've changed my mind after reading @Rana post and @TheSultan post from earlier.

I didnt consider Mcgrath factor.

 

[Rana]

You need to realise that Lee had McGrath doing a lot of mental disintegration of batters for him at the other end, and Lee was benefiting a lot from this.

I can't beat this argument. You and @TheSultan are correct and I change my mind about Akhtar.

I respectfully concede here however just illustrating, I have seen Akhtar bowl and have seen full matches, but I haven't seen his era. I remember dr bassim told me it's much harder to tell how good a player is if you didnt live in their era.

That's why my knowledge on players in this current gen have superior qualititative analysis then old gen players.

I'm not that great when it comes to pre 2010 era which is why you often see me fumbling in topics such as Ramiz vs Shan etc etc.

I do have knowledge about Ponting, Gilly, Hayden and mcgrath though as I followed them more closely then anyone else, era or not.

Tbh bro the McGrath argument isn’t set in stone and works everywhere.

I don’t know how effective Akhtar would have been had he been paired with McGrath at any point. Just because you have McGrath locking down one end doesn’t mean you get an easy pass and life becomes easier…

If you want to be ELITE like Australia wanted to, you had a HUGE responsibility sharing the new ball or the work load with Glenn McGrath. You better pick up the scraps and not let the pressure go that is built up by him! Lee did justice to this duty very well.

Although McGrath and Mohammad Asif were enjoying a massive payday for Delhi in the IPL season 1….Asif didn’t take up this responsibility. He couldn’t match the standards set by McGrath. It’s a different level of intensity for franchise I guess. But it’s just a point, you had to make sure you were worthy to step side by side by the Great Glenn McGrath! It’s not a walk in park with the big man setting the tone!

 

[BreadPakoda]

I agree with your first point and already countered @Major On this.

Here is what I said.

However not winning a trophy should not be the only criteria, a person's own performance matters. Sometimes its out of your hands. Wahab riaz took 5 wickets in 2011 yet Pakistan lost. He isnt exactly at fault now is he?

Now about Sohaib Akhtar, he is a good odi bowler and a bang avg test cricketer. However he is badly overrated. Lee is a crap test bowler but he is easily > Akhtar in odi. Has more wickets, more peak wc moments and a better avg + economy.

Akhtar comes in the good bowlers category and logically belongs in Umar Gul and Junaid category but below Amir and vastly below waqar, wasim and imran.

People tend to equate waqar, wasim and sohaib as a trio but sohaib status wise does not reach.

I havent been fed anything by Indians. Infact I tear them apart in a daily basis. No one spreads more lies then those buggers. However indians being wrong about Sohaib but going into extremities =/= me being wrong about sohaib.

Akhtar is a good bowler but thats about it.

Akhtar in Junaid category and below Amir. Bruh.

 

[mominsaigol]

Akhtar in Junaid category and below Amir. Bruh.

Already changed my mind. Although I still believe Amir is a better bowler at peak. He won 2 icc cups for Pakistan? And his peak is wasim akram esc.

Akhtar has obviously had a better career.

Ignore the junaid comment though. I was wrong on that

 

[mominsaigol]

Tbh bro the McGrath argument isn’t set in stone and works everywhere.

I don’t know how effective Akhtar would have been had he been paired with McGrath at any point. Just because you have McGrath locking down one end doesn’t mean you get an easy pass and life becomes easier…

If you want to be ELITE like Australia wanted to, you had a HUGE responsibility sharing the new ball or the work load with Glenn McGrath. You better pick up the scraps and not let the pressure go that is built up by him! Lee did justice to this duty very well.

Although McGrath and Mohammad Asif were enjoying a massive payday for Delhi in the IPL season 1….Asif didn’t take up this responsibility. He couldn’t match the standards set by McGrath. It’s a different level of intensity for franchise I guess. But it’s just a point, you had to make sure you were worthy to step side by side by the Great Glenn McGrath! It’s not a walk in park with the big man setting the tone!

Akhtar isn't a bad bowler, he's good, idk for some reason he never appealed to me but Brett Lee did.

However I am not biased like some posters here who have such an ego that they defend their already disproven takes until death do them part.

So I don't mind being corrected.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Already changed my mind. Although I still believe Amir is a better bowler at peak. He won 2 icc cups for Pakistan? And his peak is wasim akram esc.

Akhtar has obviously had a better career.

Ignore the junaid comment though. I was wrong on that

This is a PP myth.

Amir didn't win two ICC cups for Pakistan.

He played in two cup winning sides.

There is a subtle difference in words but a significant difference in meaning.

Pakistans POTS in 09 was Afridi or Gul and in CT it was Hassan Ali. Amir did play well though but his role wasn't as impactful as made out.

His peak was nowhere near Wasim. He bowled well on pitches were even Umar Amin was swinging it miles. He performed exceptionally for a 17 year old but didn't reach any meaningful pick in his career.

 

[mominsaigol]

This is a PP myth.

Amir didn't win two ICC cups for Pakistan.

He played in two cup winning sides.

There is a subtle difference in words but a significant difference in meaning.

Pakistans POTS in 09 was Afridi or Gul and in CT it was Hassan Ali. Amir did play well though but his role wasn't as impactful as made out.

His peak was nowhere near Wasim. He bowled well on pitches were even Umar Amin was swinging it miles. He performed exceptionally for a 17 year old but didn't reach any meaningful pick in his career.

Agree to disagree on this as Amir is a sensitive topic for many and theirs no reasonable way of discussing his career without eventually diving into politics.

If its okay with you, id like to move on from this topic now.

 

[shamaan]

This is a PP myth.

Amir didn't win two ICC cups for Pakistan.

He played in two cup winning sides.

There is a subtle difference in words but a significant difference in meaning.

Pakistans POTS in 09 was Afridi or Gul and in CT it was Hassan Ali. Amir did play well though but his role wasn't as impactful as made out.

His peak was nowhere near Wasim. He bowled well on pitches were even Umar Amin was swinging it miles. He performed exceptionally for a 17 year old but didn't reach any meaningful pick in his career.

Agreed his peak is nowhere near wasim.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Agree to disagree on this as Amir is a sensitive topic for many and theirs no reasonable way of discussing his career without eventually diving into politics.

If its okay with you, id like to move on from this topic now.

You can disagree if you want.

 

[mominsaigol]

You can disagree if you want.

It's not that I inheritantly disagree. I have a way with words but said words aren't meant to be taken literally.

Amir isn't literally wasim esc obviously. The comparison wasnt direct, and more of an exaggeration to drive forth a point on amir's quality as a whole.

Amir in 2017 took the wickets of rohit, Dhawan and Kohli. 6 overs and 16 runs given with 3 wickets in hand.

This is a match winning spell. Yes the target is massive and its never been chased in a final however past data isn't always relevant match to match.

The fact of the matter is that Dhawan during his era was India's best batsmen in icc events. He was okay otherwise but he was india's ace icc tournament star. Kohli is a chasing legend who has chased such totals before and rohit sharma is capable of tonking 200's in odi.

Taking these 3 wickets crippled india and ended the game in the first 5 overs.

No amount of semantical reasoning will change reality.

Now whether you view that as relevant or not is a seprate matter. Aussies view James fauklner as irrelevant despite his bowling performance in 2015 final.

 

[NishanKonar]

This is a PP myth.

Amir didn't win two ICC cups for Pakistan.

He played in two cup winning sides.

There is a subtle difference in words but a significant difference in meaning.

Pakistans POTS in 09 was Afridi or Gul and in CT it was Hassan Ali. Amir did play well though but his role wasn't as impactful as made out.

His peak was nowhere near Wasim. He bowled well on pitches were even Umar Amin was swinging it miles. He performed exceptionally for a 17 year old but didn't reach any meaningful pick in his career.

Amir had a big impact in both finals

In 2009 he got Sri Lanka's talisman Dilshan out in 1st over and Sri Lanka did not recover from that start. Dilshan was arguably the best T20 player during that time

In 2017 Amir got 3 big wickets as well

So yes he does deserve credit for both finals

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Amir had a big impact in both finals

In 2009 he got Sri Lanka's talisman Dilshan out in 1st over and Sri Lanka did not recover from that start. Dilshan was arguably the best T20 player during that time

In 2017 Amir got 3 big wickets as well

So yes he does deserve credit for both finals

Big impact for sure and I've always said his performance against Dilshan in 09 was brilliant. I am by no means relegating him to zero, just saying that he was part of a team effort and was often put performed by other players. In 09 for example I would have no issue with saying Afridi won us the cup more than Amir did.

 

[AZulfi]

Misbah did not have the luxury of being part of a strong batting side. Hence had to shoulder the burden of stabilising the innings. Younis apart, there were no world-class test batters in that team. Azhar was a decent batsman

The timid tuk-tuk approach is definitely Misbah's legacy

Ironically, he held the record for the fastest test hundred (56 balls) jointly with Viv for a short while until it was broken by New Zealand's Brendon McCullum (54 balls) against Australia in 2015

 

[Rana]

Misbah did not have the luxury of being part of a strong batting side. Hence had to shoulder the burden of stabilising the innings. Younis apart, there were no world-class test batters in that team. Azhar was a decent batsman

Like Rizwan

Misbah had no business in a strong batting side.

And this is not really true. Pakistan’s team from 2007-13 was still very good in terms of batters available in whiteball

Yousuf
Younis
Malik
Hafeez
Afridi
Razzaq
Kamran
Umar Akmal


These were all very decent batters one way or another. There was no need for Misbah to have a Messiah complex considering he struck the ball at 50 for the first 60-70 balls he faced!

 

[Rana]

Even if you put Misbah in Australia’s GOAT ODI team instead of Martyn or Clarke at 4 or 5….

He will still think he’s a know it all and strike the ball at 50 for the first 50 odd balls he faces.

@topspin

 

[AZulfi]

Like Rizwan

Misbah had no business in a strong batting side.

And this is not really true. Pakistan’s team from 2007-13 was still very good in terms of batters available in whiteball

Yousuf
Younis
Malik
Hafeez
Afridi
Razzaq
Kamran
Umar Akmal


These were all very decent batters one way or another. There was no need for Misbah to have a Messiah complex considering he struck the ball at 50 for the first 60-70 balls he faced!

Yousuf had retired in 2010, and I am mainly talking about tests here.

Under Mibah, Pakistan drew a test series 2-2 in England despite our weak batting; certainly no mean achievement. Even a strong and well-oiled team like Australia has (drawn series but) not won an Ashes in England since 2001!

 

[AZulfi]

Yousuf had retired in 2010, and I am mainly talking about tests here.

Under Mibah, Pakistan drew a test series 2-2 in England despite our weak batting; certainly no mean achievement. Even a strong and well-oiled team like Australia has (drawn series but) not won an Ashes in England since 2001!

in 2016!

 

[TheSultan]

Like Rizwan

Misbah had no business in a strong batting side.

And this is not really true. Pakistan’s team from 2007-13 was still very good in terms of batters available in whiteball

Yousuf
Younis
Malik
Hafeez
Afridi
Razzaq
Kamran
Umar Akmal


These were all very decent batters one way or another. There was no need for Misbah to have a Messiah complex considering he struck the ball at 50 for the first 60-70 balls he faced!

true. Misbah contrary to popular “bichara narrative” had a pretty good batting side at his disposal.

He just liked to make a crisis out of any scenario - Azhar Ali did the same.

 

[topspin]

Even if you put Misbah in Australia’s GOAT ODI team instead of Martyn or Clarke at 4 or 5….

He will still think he’s a know it all and strike the ball at 50 for the first 50 odd balls he faces.

@topspin

Even 50 is a big ask for him. In that era, he would've got eaten alive. There's a reason why he struggled to make it for Pakistan in the 2000s.

 

[Rana]

Even 50 is a big ask for him. In that era, he would've got eaten alive. There's a reason why he struggled to make it for Pakistan in the 2000s.

The point is, the guy isn’t going to bat any different to how he did for Pakistan even if he is surrounded by white ball giants.

He gained prominence after the age of 35. He wasn’t getting any younger. He wasn’t going to bat at a sr of 100+ in any era.

 

[Rana]

Misbah is the kind of guy who if you put in a team of let’s say:

1. Tendulkar
2. Sehwag
3. Ganguly
4. Dravid
5. Misbah
6. Yuvraj
7. Dhoni



He will still act like he is the man who’s holding everything together, and everyone else around him are a bunch of idiots. He has a messiah complex. He can’t get out of it.

 

[Rana]

I know people like this in life. They are the biggest fitnas.

They will act like they are the ones who have the entire world’s burden on their shoulders in their profession on household. They know how to make things that are so simple to become EXTREMELY complicated. It’s just in their nature. There may not be any problem, but they need a problem and then present themselves as the only solution.

Misbah is that type.

 

[Greenstorm]

Misbah did not have the luxury of being part of a strong batting side. Hence had to shoulder the burden of stabilising the innings. Younis apart, there were no world-class test batters in that team. Azhar was a decent batsman

The timid tuk-tuk approach is definitely Misbah's legacy

Ironically, he held the record for the fastest test hundred (56 balls) jointly with Viv for a short while until it was broken by New Zealand's Brendon McCullum (54 balls) against Australia in 2015

Misbah was actually one of the best six hitters (specially against spin) we have produced in last few decades. He was misused in white ball by playing him in middle order where his poor strike rotation used to put a lot of pressure on other batsmen specially during run chases. He could have been an ideal 6-7 batsman if we employed him as a finisher for the death overs in ODIs and T20Is. Instead, we tried to push a proper batsman like Umar Akmal into that role and Misbah played a part in that as captain.

PCB actually made a blunder by appointing Misbah and Afridi as captain. Younis Khan should have been given that role in Tests after spot fixing saga and there were many better contenders other than Afridi and Misbah in LOIs. Appointing Waqar multiple times as coach was another blunder. Pakistan cricket hasn't recovered from those decisions.

 

[Greenstorm]

Amir had a big impact in both finals

In 2009 he got Sri Lanka's talisman Dilshan out in 1st over and Sri Lanka did not recover from that start. Dilshan was arguably the best T20 player during that time

In 2017 Amir got 3 big wickets as well

So yes he does deserve credit for both finals

This is not a coincidence that Amir used to turn up in finals. It shows that he used to save himself and didn't gave his 100% in most other games. Wasim Akram in a recent interview said that he used to do the same early in his career but Imran Khan figured it out and didn't tolerated such attitude. A captain like Imran Khan would have made an ATG out of Amir but he got Salman Butt and Asif as mentors !

 

[mominsaigol]

Misbah is the kind of guy who if you put in a team of let’s say:

1. Tendulkar
2. Sehwag
3. Ganguly
4. Dravid
5. Misbah
6. Yuvraj
7. Dhoni



He will still act like he is the man who’s holding everything together, and everyone else around him are a bunch of idiots. He has a messiah complex. He can’t get out of it.

Or maybe he's just limited bro? You realise players like rizzu and Misbah aren't = Babar?

Babar has the talent to level up his game but regressed via mindset.

I don't think Misbah or Rizwan logically could do anything. They know their limited hence make up stories about how their the backbone of the side and hence never get dropped via PR.

I don't need to explain rizzu's technique but Misbah's technique isnt good either. His front foot is non existent and his pulls hot is hilarious.

He has a very strong backfoot which is why he can hit spinners and why he can block so well.