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Is MS Dhoni an ATG?

Ankit007

Ankit007

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I have been thinking this a lot. Is dhoni is an ATG?
Please dont tell me in odis yes and in tests not!
Because i want to know overall can he be considered an ATG. He got us all the ICC trophies. Even in tests he made us #1 team. Maybe he made us reach every achievement. He stayed in team when greats retired. He moulded youngsters into men. Kohli had learnt captaincy from him.

Maybe he has achieved that much to be considered an ATG. Isnt it?
 
lol. A guy with an average of 38 in tests is being hailed as an ATG.

One of the funniest posts I've seen in recent times.
 
Actually the correct answer would be "In ODIs yes, in Tests no"..but you didn't want to hear it.
 
odi's yes.
tests no.
tests matter more to me.
so overall no.
 
uberkoen said:
lol. A guy with an average of 38 in tests is being hailed as an ATG.

One of the funniest posts I've seen in recent times.
Click to expand...

Average for a wicketkeeper batsman 38. I dont think its bad. Plus he was an excellent keeper. I dont think there would be much with abilities he had except gilly and sanga
 
uberkoen said:
lol. A guy with an average of 38 in tests is being hailed as an ATG.

One of the funniest posts I've seen in recent times.
Click to expand...

Good enough for a WK batsman. He's no Gilchrist, but he can easily make the all-time Asian XI as a WK batsman, if we exclude Sangakkara because he didn't keep for more than half of his Test career.

An ODI ATG no doubt, has captained his team to every single ICC trophy and has also lead them to the number one ranking in Tests. I don't think it's a funny claim, he might not be a true ATG but he's close. A very iconic cricketer no doubt, with a long lasting legacy.
 
ATG finisher- Yes...An all time great-No..Just an ODI great..
 
Ankit007 said:
Average for a wicketkeeper batsman 38. I dont think its bad. Plus he was an excellent keeper. I dont think there would be much with abilities he had except gilly and sanga
Click to expand...

So, going by your statement, he is average. How does that make him an ATG? Andrew Flower, Boucher and Matt Prior are all better wicketkeeper/batsmen in tests than Dhoni.
 
Nope. He's not even a great like guys like Inzamam and Laxman. Players are given these tags based mainly on their achievements in tests.
 
not an overall ATG because he was just good in tests. An ODI ATG though but should retire now...
 
uberkoen said:
lol. A guy with an average of 38 in tests is being hailed as an ATG.

One of the funniest posts I've seen in recent times.
Click to expand...

38 average for wicketkeeper is good, ATG doens't just mean batsman or bowler, ATG wicketkeeper is also a category
 
Absolutely an ATG in my book. Anyone who says no either dont understand cricket or simply bias. There has been no bigger match winner for India than MSD. Easily the best skipper from subcontinent if you look into his overall W/L ratio (incl. Tests), number of championships won etc. etc.

The greatest finisher from Asia, greatest leader from Subcontinent, a wicketkeeper over 250 stumpings/catches and a batsman with 50+avg in ODIs.

If he is not an ATG...no one is.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk
 
Acricketfan said:
I specifically said that he is an ATG in ODIs. Not in any other format. Not sure what part of that is hard to understand.
Click to expand...

I am specifically asking about ODI's as well. I think you need to re-read my question. Do you think Bevan is ODI ATG?
 
I would say yes, one also has to factor in the fact that he was Test captain for so long as well.
 
carrom_ball said:
38 average for wicketkeeper is good, ATG doens't just mean batsman or bowler, ATG wicketkeeper is also a category
Click to expand...

It isn't about his average. What has he done in tests? He was a decent or at best, a good keeper. His captaincy in tests was nothing special at all, despite having one of the strongest batting lineups of all time and India's best ever team.

He is a great ODI player however, and would make my ODI XI every time. Brilliance in ODIs is not enough to make someone an ATG though.
 
uberkoen said:
Yes, Matt Prior. I know it's funny because you'd think someone being termed as an ATG wicketkeeper/batsman would at least be better than Matt Prior .....but unfortunately not.
Click to expand...

Prior was easily better than Dhoni in tests. The guy was averaging 45+ at one point and his keeping was excellent.
 
Certainly an Indian great, but not quite an ATG (overall - not even an Indian great if you consider just tests)..

However, he has achieved everything one can in ODIs and is certainly in the league of Bevan, Sachin, Jayasuriya etc in that regard.
 
Bilal7 said:
Nope. He's not even a great like guys like Inzamam and Laxman. Players are given these tags based mainly on their achievements in tests.
Click to expand...

No.

ODI's and T20's matter as much nowadays.

Dhoni is one of the greatest players ever to play cricket and has won everything for India.
 
uberkoen said:
I am specifically asking about ODI's as well. I think you need to re-read my question. Do you think Bevan is ODI ATG?
Click to expand...

Bevan is ODI ATG.

Dhoni is ATG at ODI and T20, and very good (solid batsman, solid keeper, solid captain) at Tests, and 2 out of 3 is MORE THAN ENOUGH to be an ATG even if he wasn't very good at Tests, which he is.

Dhoni being an ATG is not even a debatable issue; anyone who thinks he isn't is flat-out wrong.
 
Yessss!!! The [MENTION=135134]CricketAnalyst[/MENTION] has entered, talk nah Bilal:akhtar
 
CricketAnalyst said:
That is your (entirely incorrect) opinion.
Click to expand...

CricketAnalyst said:
No.

ODI's and T20's matter as much nowadays.

Dhoni is one of the greatest players ever to play cricket and has won everything for India.
Click to expand...

This is the opinion of people who have actually played the game and who are playing the game. When your dystopian future, where Gayle is as legendary as Bradman, comes into existence, then you can call my opinion wrong. Until then, suck it up and accept that Gayle and Dhoni are nowhere near to being ATGs.

They are very good players though because ODIs and T20s do have some value.
 
uberkoen said:
So, going by your statement, he is average. How does that make him an ATG? Andrew Flower, Boucher and Matt Prior are all better wicketkeeper/batsmen in tests than Dhoni.
Click to expand...
I didnt say him average. I was talking about his average 38
 
CricketAnalyst said:
Bevan is ODI ATG.

Dhoni is ATG at ODI and T20, and very good (solid batsman, solid keeper, solid captain) at Tests, and 2 out of 3 is MORE THAN ENOUGH to be an ATG even if he wasn't very good at Tests, which he is.

Dhoni being an ATG is not even a debatable issue; anyone who thinks he isn't is flat-out wrong.
Click to expand...

Not at all.
 
Bilal7 said:
This is the opinion of people who have actually played the game and who are playing the game. When your dystopian future, where Gayle is as legendary as Bradman, comes into existence, then you can call my opinion wrong. Until then, suck it up and accept that Gayle and Dhoni are nowhere near to being ATGs.

They are very good players though because ODIs and T20s do have some value.
Click to expand...

You can suck it up (or we can mind our language and talk in a civilized fashion). The opinion of decrepit idiots who only played Test is irrelevant. Dhoni himself feels ODI and T20 equally important and most of the people watching the game prefer T20 and people nowadays structure their career to play more limited overs cricket.

You and others persistently pretend that only people who agree with you are allowed to have an opinion.
 
If Amla & Younis are ATGs...Dhoni is bigger ATG based on his overall contributions in all format of games/Captaincy/Wicket keeping roles etc.
 
CricketAnalyst said:
You can suck it up (or we can mind our language and talk in a civilized fashion). The opinion of decrepit idiots who only played Test is irrelevant. Dhoni himself feels ODI and T20 equally important and most of the people watching the game prefer T20 and people nowadays structure their career to play more limited overs cricket.

You and others persistently pretend that only people who agree with you are allowed to have an opinion.
Click to expand...

You do realize that "suck it up" is another way of saying "You can accept it", right? Lol.

Those idiots are the people that are listened to. Besides, it isn't like every cricket fan in the world accepts that Dhoni is an ATG; most don't, if this thread is anything to go by.

If every casual fan was to be taken seriously, then Afridi is also an ATG and Inzamam is as good as Sachin.
 
Bilal7 said:
The ATGs from this era are Steyn, Amla, de Villiers and arguably, Younis. Dhoni is miles behind all four in the test format and thus, is not an ATG.

Not every player will get there, not sure why the fanboys are getting angsty. Saeed Anwar isn't one, Ganguly isn't one, Laxman isn't one, Inzamam isn't one, Kumble isn't one, KP isn't one, Clarke isn't one and Misbah isn't one. What makes Dhoni better than these guys?
Click to expand...

Maybe the fact that Dhoni captained the side that won WC, WT20, Champions Trophy, Test No 1, Multiple IPLs and Champions League wins was a good wicketkeeper and a good batsman in Tests and extraordinary in ODIs.

Seriously, the idea of Younis being an ATG is a joke. He was very good at one format, passable at one of the others (some concession for captaining T20 winning side), and abysmal at ODI.
 
Bilal7 said:
You do realize that "suck it up" is another way of saying "You can accept it", right? Lol.

Those idiots are the people that are listened to. Besides, it isn't like every cricket fan in the world accepts that Dhoni is an ATG; most don't, if this thread is anything to go by.

If every casual fan was to be taken seriously, then Afridi is also an ATG and Inzamam is as good as Sachin.
Click to expand...

This thread isn't anything to go by. It's the last refuge of hardcore Test supremacists; the fact that it's debated so strongly here tells you everything.
 
An ATG.

Sometimes, it's more than what you average.

He has charisma, he has given India World Cups and he has averaged amazing in ODI's.

Add 38 average in tests, and it would be foolish to consider Dhoni anything less than ATG.
 
CricketAnalyst said:
Maybe the fact that Dhoni captained the side that won WC, WT20, Champions Trophy, Test No 1, Multiple IPLs and Champions League wins was a good wicketkeeper and a good batsman in Tests and extraordinary in ODIs.

Seriously, the idea of Younis being an ATG is a joke. He was very good at one format, passable at one of the others (some concession for captaining T20 winning side), and abysmal at ODI.
Click to expand...

A captain is only as good as his team. Is Clive Lloyd an ATG? Is Ganguly an ATG? If you superimposed Imran's captaincy onto Asad Shafiq, would he become an ATG?

You need to have played a crucial role in those victories, other than to just flip the coin and give an interview at the end of the match. IPLs? Lol.
 
Sangakkara, Steyn and Cook are the only three ATGs who have debuted post-2000.
 
CricketAnalyst said:
This thread isn't anything to go by. It's the last refuge of hardcore Test supremacists; the fact that it's debated so strongly here tells you everything.
Click to expand...

That would be cricinfo. This place is filled with people who rate the formats equally.

Ankit007 said:
If you call younis an ATG. Who failed in any big tournament. Dont have match winning abilities. Then why not Dhoni. Who is i guess the best finisher of all time.
Click to expand...

Tests, tests and more tests! How many IPL titles did Gary Sobers win?
 
Bilal7 said:
The ATGs from this era are Steyn, Amla, de Villiers and arguably, Younis. Dhoni is miles behind all four in the test format and thus, is not an ATG.

Not every player will get there, not sure why the fanboys are getting angsty. Saeed Anwar isn't one, Ganguly isn't one, Laxman isn't one, Inzamam isn't one, Kumble isn't one, KP isn't one, Clarke isn't one and Misbah isn't one. What makes Dhoni better than these guys?
Click to expand...

Sangakkara is another one. Steyn, Amla, de Villiers, Sanga and hopefully, Younis are the ATGs of this era.
 
Bilal7 said:
That would be cricinfo. This place is filled with people who rate the formats equally.



Tests, tests and more tests! How many IPL titles did Gary Sobers win?
Click to expand...


Younis is not fit to lace the boots of Sobers.
 
If Dhonis an ATG overall then there's currently loads of ATGs playing. He just doesn't make the cut. A pretty average test batsman overall and there have been recent keepers such as Prior mentioned above who have outperformed him by a fair bit in tests and also quite clearly aren't ATGs.
 
Bilal7 said:
That would be cricinfo. This place is filled with people who rate the formats equally.



Tests, tests and more tests! How many IPL titles did Gary Sobers win?
Click to expand...

Tests are toughest....but now we have enough ODI matches & T20 marches played ignoring them is a disservice to game.
 
dandapinda said:
Tests are toughest....but now we have enough ODI matches & T20 marches played ignoring them is a disservice to game.
Click to expand...

No one is ignoring them. Tests are just the most important criteria. Otherwise, how do you compare players who played a single ODI game to players that played 300+ ODI games? Tests have remained the one constant in every single era of cricket.
 
Great cricketers who have debuted in the last 16 years (in order):

Smith
Steyn
Sangakkara
Cook
Pietersen
Amla bhai
Clarke
de Villiers
Younis
Anderson

Top 10 cricketers of this millennium. Only the top 4 are ATGs, remaining 6 are greats for their respective countries only.
 
Mamoon said:
Great cricketers who have debuted in the last 16 years (in order):

Smith
Steyn
Sangakkara
Cook
Pietersen
Amla bhai
Clarke
de Villiers
Younis
Anderson

Top 10 cricketers of this millennium. Only the top 4 are ATGs, remaining 6 are greats for their respective countries only.
Click to expand...

You could safely add Dhoni to the list, if you want to add Anderson.
 
Bilal7 said:
No one is ignoring them. Tests are just the most important criteria. Otherwise, how do you compare players who played a single ODI game to players that played 300+ ODI games? Tests have remained the one constant in every single era of cricket.
Click to expand...

Problem with tests is teams are declining rapidly compared to ODI & T20 where main teams still can be competitive on the day,so just using constant factor is not a valid point.
 
Mamoon said:
Great cricketers who have debuted in the last 16 years (in order):

Smith
Steyn
Sangakkara
Cook
Pietersen
Amla bhai
Clarke
de Villiers
Younis
Anderson

Top 10 cricketers of this millennium. Only the top 4 are ATGs, remaining 6 are greats for their respective countries only.
Click to expand...
Pietersen?I know he was pretty talented but his stats don't merit him a place in the top ten.
 
Revised list:

Smith
Steyn
Sangakkara
Cook
Dhoni
Pietersen
Amla bhai
Clarke
de Villiers
Younis

Honorable Mentions:

Anderson, Johnson, Gayle, Kohli, Asif

Biggest Tragedy:

Bond
 
ATG = NO

But he will go down as an Indian great and also one of the best and most sucessful skippers they have ever produced.
 
In ODIs he is unequivocally one. Being even a good wicketkeeper with an average of 35 is considered pretty good. Here you got a guy who averages 50+ as a batsman over a 10+ year career WITH being a very capable wicketkeeper and a very astute LOI captain. That's a 3 in 1 combination that I'd confidently say is the most incredible resumé an ODI player can achieve. Add in his pressure handling capabilities and some incredible backs to the wall innings like Chennai 12 Vs Pak., Adelaide 12 Vs Aus., Port of Spain Vs SRL Tri Series Final, the 2011 World Cup Final, 139* in Mohali vs Aus. coming in at 76-4 to take the score to 300+ etc and he becomes one of the contenders for the best ODI player ever.

It's in the Tests that there is a major bone of contention and justifiably so. Although the fact that he doesn't have a test hundred outside does weigh heavily against him but it's in no way the be all and end all of arguments. For all his technical deficiencies, he for sure has had his fair share of very good performances. Most Indian fans remember India's tour of England 2014 for the Lords win- Rahane's hundred and Ishant's 7-74 but I also very fondly remember those two incredible Dhoni innings of 71/152(Team) and 82/148 in the 4th and 5th Tests respectively. It's not that the result of these matches would have been different even if Dhoni got out for 0 on both occasions but just seeing the sheer mental tenacity to be the lone warrior of all the so called technically proficient batsmen that surrounded him in the most adverse of conditions an Indian team can encounter was a sight to behold. His captaincy was definitely a sore point but as a wicketkeeper batsman he definitely held his own quite well, there's only a handful of keepers who have been better as a WK+Bat than Dhoni, not to undermine that he was a pretty destructive batsman at home and turned quite a few matches in India's favor like with the 224 Vs Aus. at Chennai.

Overall, it depends on your prerogative of how much weightage you really give to ODIs regarding this discussion. If you're an absolute purist holding no standing for ODIs then he's at best an Indian great but if it's a 50-50 for Test/ODI then he's definitely on the fringes of being an ATG if not one.
 
Amjid Javed said:
ATG = NO

But he will go down as an Indian great and also one of the best and most sucessful skippers they have ever produced.
Click to expand...

Most successful definitely. Ganguly was the better captain though.
 
Mamoon said:
Revised list:

Smith
Steyn
Sangakkara
Cook
Dhoni
Pietersen
Amla bhai
Clarke
de Villiers
Younis

Honorable Mentions:

Anderson, Johnson, Gayle, Kohli, Asif

Biggest Tragedy:

Bond
Click to expand...

I think you missed Lord Asad Shafiq in there as well.
 
Yes.. An ATG captain Not exactly an ATG player But a very good player just a level blow ATG..
In My All time ODI side I Would definitely Select him and Play Gilly as a specialist Batsman

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk
 
Berserk_Marshal_ said:
In ODIs he is unequivocally one. Being even a good wicketkeeper with an average of 35 is considered pretty good. Here you got a guy who averages 50+ as a batsman over a 10+ year career WITH being a very capable wicketkeeper and a very astute LOI captain. That's a 3 in 1 combination that I'd confidently say is the most incredible resumé an ODI player can achieve. Add in his pressure handling capabilities and some incredible backs to the wall innings like Chennai 12 Vs Pak., Adelaide 12 Vs Aus., Port of Spain Vs SRL Tri Series Final, the 2011 World Cup Final, 139* in Mohali vs Aus. coming in at 76-4 to take the score to 300+ etc and he becomes one of the contenders for the best ODI player ever.

It's in the Tests that there is a major bone of contention and justifiably so. Although the fact that he doesn't have a test hundred outside does weigh heavily against him but it's in no way the be all and end all of arguments. For all his technical deficiencies, he for sure has had his fair share of very good performances. Most Indian fans remember India's tour of England 2014 for the Lords win- Rahane's hundred and Ishant's 7-74 but I also very fondly remember those two incredible Dhoni innings of 71/152(Team) and 82/148 in the 4th and 5th Tests respectively. It's not that the result of these matches would have been different even if Dhoni got out for 0 on both occasions but just seeing the sheer mental tenacity to be the lone warrior of all the so called technically proficient batsmen that surrounded him in the most adverse of conditions an Indian team can encounter was a sight to behold. His captaincy was definitely a sore point but as a wicketkeeper batsman he definitely held his own quite well, there's only a handful of keepers who have been better as a WK+Bat than Dhoni, not to undermine that he was a pretty destructive batsman at home and turned quite a few matches in India's favor like with the 224 Vs Aus. at Chennai.

Overall, it depends on your prerogative of how much weightage you really give to ODIs regarding this discussion. If you're an absolute purist holding no standing for ODIs then he's at best an Indian great but if it's a 50-50 for Test/ODI then he's definitely on the fringes of being an ATG if not one.
Click to expand...

PSA:

Since 2007 there have been 3 formats, and all 3 count. I will not let these Test guys keep claiming that T20 carries no weight; it does carry weight. That aside, even in just Test+ODI Dhoni is unquestionably ATG. Seriously only a deluded man can claim that Younis will go down as a greater cricketer than Dhoni.
 
CricketAnalyst said:
Bevan is ODI ATG.

Dhoni is ATG at ODI and T20, and very good (solid batsman, solid keeper, solid captain) at Tests, and 2 out of 3 is MORE THAN ENOUGH to be an ATG even if he wasn't very good at Tests, which he is.

Dhoni being an ATG is not even a debatable issue; anyone who thinks he isn't is flat-out wrong.
Click to expand...

Dhoni is not an ATG in T20Is. Don't just give him a free ride there because of his ODI record.
 
CricketAnalyst said:
PSA:

Since 2007 there have been 3 formats, and all 3 count. I will not let these Test guys keep claiming that T20 carries no weight; it does carry weight. That aside, even in just Test+ODI Dhoni is unquestionably ATG. Seriously only a deluded man can claim that Younis will go down as a greater cricketer than Dhoni.
Click to expand...

Dhoni was an average test (being generous there but his keeping can make up for it) and t20i batsman and only ATG quality in the one format, ODIs. For me therefore he doesn't get in the ATG category. He's an Indian great.
 
Rated by a panel of 50 experts consisting of writers, commentators, ex-players etc as one of the best 5 ODI players of all time.

An average of 38 at number 7 is one of the best and he definitely played some high impact innings, so for me yes he is a lower tier ATG.
 
He captained India to world cup win .That alone qualifies him as ATG .How many players are even comparable in that regard lol

If someone like Cook can be considered ATG great solely based on his test record then so is Dhoni for his ODI achievements .
 
CricketAnalyst said:
PSA:

Since 2007 there have been 3 formats, and all 3 count. I will not let these Test guys keep claiming that T20 carries no weight; it does carry weight. That aside, even in just Test+ODI Dhoni is unquestionably ATG. Seriously only a deluded man can claim that Younis will go down as a greater cricketer than Dhoni.
Click to expand...

Well I'm not really that high on comparative analysis because obviously there's a great platform for the arguers to inflate their favorite's comparative strong points. I'll just say that in an objective single domain analysis, there's no set ground and a balancing factor for comparisons. For ex: there is no way you can rationally compare Yuvraj's 2007 T20 heroics with Dravid's 2011 England tour heroics, you just can't. Poster #1 might give more weightage to the performances in ICC T20 Trophies while Poster #2 may give more weightage to performances in overseas conditions in Tests facing a very potent bowling attack.
 
sarfarazrules said:
Rated by a panel of 50 experts consisting of writers, commentators, ex-players etc as one of the best 5 ODI players of all time.

An average of 38 at number 7 is one of the best and he definitely played some high impact innings, so for me yes he is a lower tier ATG.
Click to expand...

His average when batting at 7 doesn't actually fit into the top 20 of all time (min qualification 30 innings).
 
BeautifulGame said:
He captained India to world cup win .That alone qualifies him as ATG .How many players are even comparable in that regard lol

If someone like Cook can be considered ATG great solely based on his test record then so is Dhoni for his ODI achievements .
Click to expand...

I agree.If Cook is an ATG then Dhoni is also an ATG. Its a very tough deal to maintain balance between all the formats. One has to credit them as per their achievement.
 
uberkoen said:
I am specifically asking about ODI's as well. I think you need to re-read my question. Do you think Bevan is ODI ATG?
Click to expand...
No bcoz Bevan was only a great ODI finisher. No one is saying Dhoni is an ATG batsman like Tendulkar or Ponting. He is an ATG cricketer, atleast in my book. The comparison with Bevan only finishes as being finisher which Dhoni beats him anyway but the comparison ends there. Dhoni is an ATG Captain, a supreme steategist, a great wicket keeper and an awesome batsman.

A defo ATG.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk
 
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