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Is MS Dhoni an ATG?

May be because both Akram and Ganguly were facing probably the greatest ODI team ever (Australia) in challenging conditions of England and South Africa, while, Dhoni was facing Sri Lanka in India?

Imran khan did it in Australia against the best team of that WC (England) with a fairly inexperienced team and therefore he is rightly credited for that WC win.
Imran Khan fluked the world cup with the help of rain .Otherwise would have packed home early , He wasnt even the best captain in the tournament , Martin Crowe was .Got luck again with Crowe getting injured and not able to captain in the semi final 2nd innings .

The luckiest world cup win of all .

Dhoni won the world cup deservedly knocking out the current( and 3 times in a row as well) world champions and the the runners up in the last world cup
 
Dhoni is miles above all the rest except AB.

Steyn is relatively weak in limited overs, meaning he couldn't deal with being hit. Exceptional Test bowler, but can't be compared to the all-conquering Indian captain who did it an all three formats (seriously, both formats as a phrase does not make sense when there are three formats)

Sanga is just not all that strong in the limited overs until recently. Just another batsmen who piled up mountains of runs in a format where batsmen face no pressure and can spend all day piling on runs.

Graeme Smith. See above. In comparison to Dhoni never led his sides (even very strong ones) to World Cup or Champions Trophy success.

Clarke, better credentials than the rest, but nowhere near Dhoni level.

AB is so good a batsman in all three formats that he can enter the discussion notwithstanding WC chokes.

Your statement regarding Sangakkara and Steyn are contradictory. If scoring runs is that easy in ODIs now then credit should be given to Steyn that he still averages 25.93 in ODIs. On top of that, his test average of 22.53 is miles ahead of anyone else in the modern era. So, it goes like this:

Tests: Steyn miles ahead of anyone else, there were better WK batsmen than Dhoni in tests, e.g. Prior
ODIs, There were better ODI bowlers than Steyn, e.g. Starc, Dhoni had equal or superior bats, e.g. Tendulkar, Kohli, Devillers, etc.

Considering overall record, there is no way Dhoni is miles ahead of Steyn.

Regarding Sangakkara, he has the most runs in ODIs in last 5 years, 5630 in 118 innings. This is even better than Kohli's 5352 runs in 121 innings. On top of that Sanga kept wickets too. Going by this logic, Kohli's number should be also disregarded which will be very unfair.
 
Imran Khan fluked the world cup with the help of rain .Otherwise would have packed home early , He wasnt even the best captain in the tournament , Martin Crowe was .Got luck again with Crowe getting injured and not able to captain in the semi final 2nd innings .

The luckiest world cup win of all .

Dhoni won the world cup deservedly knocking out the current( and 3 times in a row as well) world champions and the the runners up in the last world cup

Oh! Didnt knew that about IK wc win!!!
 
Imran Khan fluked the world cup with the help of rain .Otherwise would have packed home early , He wasnt even the best captain in the tournament , Martin Crowe was .Got luck again with Crowe getting injured and not able to captain in the semi final 2nd innings .

The luckiest world cup win of all .

Dhoni won the world cup deservedly knocking out the current( and 3 times in a row as well) world champions and the the runners up in the last world cup

Yes, luck was on Imran's side. They had a poor start but you forgot to mention that Pakistan did beat the joint best team who were unbeaten in that WC (New Zealand) twice and previous WC winner (Australia) at their home.

Also, there is no comparison between the strength of Pakistan's team of 1992 and Indian team of 2011. Pakistan's had only one world class batsman in Miandad and Imran had to bat at 3. While, Akram was the only world class bowler in that team. The rest of the team was mediocre or vastly inexperienced. Dhoni's team had ATG ODI batsmen who were at their peak and bowlers who were good in home conditions. Zaheer was in phenomenal form.

Another big difference was that Dhoni won the WC in India while Pakistan did it in Australia.

You also forgot to mention that Pakistan also beat that Australian team in 2011 WC. Pakistan actually was the team who broke the winning streak of Aussies in WCs. So, please don't use it as a logic to credit Dhoni. It was not something that only he did.
 
Imran Khan fluked the world cup with the help of rain .Otherwise would have packed home early , He wasnt even the best captain in the tournament , Martin Crowe was .Got luck again with Crowe getting injured and not able to captain in the semi final 2nd innings .

The luckiest world cup win of all .

Dhoni won the world cup deservedly knocking out the current( and 3 times in a row as well) world champions and the the runners up in the last world cup

Dhoni was the best captain in 2015 but he did not win the WC. So, what's your point? Winning a WC is never a fluke. You still have to win semi-final and final against probably the best performing teams in that tournament.
 
Nobody gives a damn to T20s where hacks like Gayle, McCullum, Maxwell are greats.Tests are real deal- a format which requires more skill and more hardwork.Anyways I don't think I am ignoring odis and WC completely. You can have your opinions and rankings.

More people care about T20 than Test where weak losers like Shafiq and Younis can block all day and don't require any ability.

FYI you are actually ignorant. Gayle has two Test Triple centuries and was a very good Test player, but don't let actual knowledge come in the way of your rants.
 
Your statement regarding Sangakkara and Steyn are contradictory. If scoring runs is that easy in ODIs now then credit should be given to Steyn that he still averages 25.93 in ODIs. On top of that, his test average of 22.53 is miles ahead of anyone else in the modern era. So, it goes like this:

Tests: Steyn miles ahead of anyone else, there were better WK batsmen than Dhoni in tests, e.g. Prior
ODIs, There were better ODI bowlers than Steyn, e.g. Starc, Dhoni had equal or superior bats, e.g. Tendulkar, Kohli, Devillers, etc.

Considering overall record, there is no way Dhoni is miles ahead of Steyn.

Regarding Sangakkara, he has the most runs in ODIs in last 5 years, 5630 in 118 innings. This is even better than Kohli's 5352 runs in 121 innings. On top of that Sanga kept wickets too. Going by this logic, Kohli's number should be also disregarded which will be very unfair.

Again, as I point out 3 formats exist and you are only talking about two.

Secondly, very conveniently you leave out keeping from the ODI equation. In any case, Kohli is not superior to Dhoni as an ODI bat career wise (sure, young Kohli is better than the aged Dhoni in a time when Dhoni is in bad form, but Dhoni is as good as him, while being a keeper).

Thirdly, Dhoni is a captain who has won everything, while Steyn never faced that pressure. Steyn's also not lived up in big limited overs moments. He's the guy who got hit for six when defending 5 off 2 with a spot in the finals on the line.
 
Your statement regarding Sangakkara and Steyn are contradictory. If scoring runs is that easy in ODIs now then credit should be given to Steyn that he still averages 25.93 in ODIs. On top of that, his test average of 22.53 is miles ahead of anyone else in the modern era. So, it goes like this:

Tests: Steyn miles ahead of anyone else, there were better WK batsmen than Dhoni in tests, e.g. Prior
ODIs, There were better ODI bowlers than Steyn, e.g. Starc, Dhoni had equal or superior bats, e.g. Tendulkar, Kohli, Devillers, etc.

Considering overall record, there is no way Dhoni is miles ahead of Steyn.

Regarding Sangakkara, he has the most runs in ODIs in last 5 years, 5630 in 118 innings. This is even better than Kohli's 5352 runs in 121 innings. On top of that Sanga kept wickets too. Going by this logic, Kohli's number should be also disregarded which will be very unfair.

Also, when I said piled up runs in easy format, I was referring to Tests. Tests are easy for defensive batsmen especially on the flat Pattas Sanga amassed runs on where 952/6 and such scores were possible.
 
More people care about T20 than Test where weak losers like Shafiq and Younis can block all day and don't require any ability.

FYI you are actually ignorant. Gayle has two Test Triple centuries and was a very good Test player, but don't let actual knowledge come in the way of your rants.

Out of interest, what are your views on Afridi? In addition, what do you make of Azhar coming out swinging ever since he has been made captain? Is he a better batsman than Younis and Shafiq?
 
Imran Khan fluked the world cup with the help of rain .Otherwise would have packed home early , He wasnt even the best captain in the tournament , Martin Crowe was .Got luck again with Crowe getting injured and not able to captain in the semi final 2nd innings .

Harsh. Pakistan were awful in the first half of the tournament and got lucky with the rain versus England, but after that started beating teams heavily. Whereas England did big damage early on but ran out of steam due to injuries. You have to peak at the right time!
 
Harsh. Pakistan were awful in the first half of the tournament and got lucky with the rain versus England, but after that started beating teams heavily. Whereas England did big damage early on but ran out of steam due to injuries. You have to peak at the right time!

There would have been no peaking at the right time if they weren't incredibly lucky with rain washing out the England Match.

So they didn't peak at the right time just flucked with rain to start with and then performed(or peaked) well in final.They definitely were lucky as hell with Crowe injury in Semi Final.

I don't see any other World cup winning team having a flucky record with depending on rain in their world cup win.

Of course they peaked at the right time in final but so did every other World cup winning team .So not sure how I am harsh when I say they are luckiest world cup winning team .
 
Out of interest, what are your views on Afridi? In addition, what do you make of Azhar coming out swinging ever since he has been made captain? Is he a better batsman than Younis and Shafiq?

Azhar has stopped it. He was actually playing very well for the first 10 or so matches when he actually was swinging. And yes, he is better than Younis and Shafiq at ODI but that's such an incredibly low bar that even Australia's number 8 and number 9 batsmen tend to satisfy that threshold.

Afridi isn't that far actually. People here just hate positive cricket. In the first place I've shown before that SR*Avg is a good rough reckoner for ODI batting, and Afridi actually does a lot better than many famous specialist batsmen on this metric. Not to mention his bowling figures are very respectable over a two decade career which tends to erode figures by playing very young and old.

He is a king in T20.

Even in Tests, neither his batting nor bowling average is at all objectionable, so most of the dislike for his game is ideological view about how cricket should be played rather than any objective assessment of how he has contributed for his teams.
 
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Azhar has stopped it. He was actually playing very well for the first 10 or so matches when he actually was swinging. And yes, he is better than Younis and Shafiq at ODI but that's such an incredibly low bar that even Australia's number 8 and number 9 batsmen tend to satisfy that threshold.

Afridi isn't that far actually. People here just hate positive cricket. In the first place I've shown before that SR*Avg is a good rough reckoner for ODI batting, and Afridi actually does a lot better than many famous specialist batsmen on this metric. Not to mention his bowling figures are very respectable over a two decade career which tends to erode figures by playing very young and old.

He is a king in T20.

Even in Tests, neither his batting nor bowling average is at all objectionable, so most of the dislike for his game is ideological view about how cricket should be played rather than any objective assessment of how he has contributed for his teams.

Thanks. Well Azhar did come out that way in the 4th ODI vs England. Let's see how he goes about it in NZ.
 
Again, as I point out 3 formats exist and you are only talking about two.

Secondly, very conveniently you leave out keeping from the ODI equation. In any case, Kohli is not superior to Dhoni as an ODI bat career wise (sure, young Kohli is better than the aged Dhoni in a time when Dhoni is in bad form, but Dhoni is as good as him, while being a keeper).

Thirdly, Dhoni is a captain who has won everything, while Steyn never faced that pressure. Steyn's also not lived up in big limited overs moments. He's the guy who got hit for six when defending 5 off 2 with a spot in the finals on the line.

Including T20 make a case for somebody to be an all time great is laughable, seriously. That too, when Dhoni does not have a single 50 or 100 in that format. Even most of the Indian fans will agree that Dhoni is easily replaceable in T20s.

Yes, Dhoni is really really good in ODIs, upper tier ATG and probably a GOAT due to his outstanding batting, keeping, and captaincy record. I will never question him as an ODI player. However, he has not been the greatest ODI WK as well. The best WK batsman in any format is Adam Gilchrist. Here is the comparison of their records in ODIs. There is no need to even compare them in tests:

Dhoni
8832 runs in 236 innings = 37.4 runs per innings at 89 strike rate

Gilchrist
9619 in 279 innings = 34.4 runs per innings at 97 strike rate

Though, Dhoni scored around 3 runs more per innings than Gilchrist but the latter scored at a much better strike rate and that too as an opener against better bowlers and in an era not as batting friendly.

There is no comparison between Steyn, the ODI bowler and Dhoni, the ODI WK batsman - Dhoni wins hands down. However, Steyn, the ODI bowler is better than Dhoni, the test batsman. Moreover, Steyn has an unmatched record in a more prestigious format. That puts him above Dhoni in players rankings any day of the week.
 
There are three formats.

Ignoring one proves not the irrelevance of that format, but ignorance and bigotry of the one making that judgement.

Agree with everything else you said, except that all formats have to be equal and I think Dhoni is not just an ATG he is one of the greatest players to ever play cricket and will be remembered as such.

If and when International teams start playing 25-30% of total time in T-20 then it will be fine but right now T-20 international is probably less than 5% of total cricket at top level.

Same situation was there when ODI started, but in the last 20-25 years, ODI occupied a huge part of international cricket.
 
There would have been no peaking at the right time if they weren't incredibly lucky with rain washing out the England Match.

So they didn't peak at the right time just flucked with rain to start with and then performed(or peaked) well in final.They definitely were lucky as hell with Crowe injury in Semi Final.

I don't see any other World cup winning team having a flucky record with depending on rain in their world cup win.

Of course they peaked at the right time in final but so did every other World cup winning team .So not sure how I am harsh when I say they are luckiest world cup winning team .

Luck is meaningless to me really. Pakistan were the best team and they won. This despite losing Waqar to injury.
 
Without any doubt Dhoni is one of the finest cricketers world has seen
He is a living legend
He gave India everything
 
Luck is meaningless to me really. Pakistan were the best team and they won. This despite losing Waqar to injury.

Yes, they did beat New Zealand twice (once in the league match and then in the semi-final) and England in the final fair and square. These were the two best teams in that tournament. I do not know how can it be regarded as a fluke.
 
first of all ,thanks to the OP who put forward the topic.Now i can add one more Indian into
my list of ATGs.

Dhoni need to be analysed from the perspective of a wicket keeper.His bat avg: of 38 in 90 tests
is up to the mark as far as longevity is concerned.Plus he has descent bat avg:s in almost all
countries he has played in.And his 294 dismissals compares with the very best wicket keepers of
all time.

In one day cricket no wicket keeper batsman comes close to Dhoni.He was an ATG batsman, one of the
best finishers of all time,one of the best ever one day captains in history.

So tests and one dayers combined Dhoni is up there with the very best wkeepers of alltime.Hence
an ATG.
 
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first of all ,thanks to the OP who put forward the topic.Now i can add one more Indian into
my list of ATGs.

Dhoni need to be analysed from the perspective of a wicket keeper.His bat avg: of 38 in 90 tests
is up to the mark as far as longevity is concerned.Plus he has descent bat avg:s in almost all
countries he has played in.And his 294 dismissals compares with the very best wicket keepers of
all time.

<b>In one day cricket no wicket keeper batsman comes close to Dhoni.He was an ATG batsman, one of the
best finishers of all time,one of the best ever one day captains in history.</b>

So tests and one dayers combined Dhoni is up there with the very best wkeepers of alltime.Hence
an ATG.

Do you really think Dhoni is a better WK batsman than Gilchrist?
 
A flat track bully who slogged his way out of trouble in the small grounds and flat tracks of Asia against hapless bowling attacks further held back by ultra-batting-friendly rules created by ICC.

Did he ever play a good tour (consisting of at least 3 distinct innings) of 80+ scores in a bowling-friendly seaming condition like in England, New Zealand or South Africa?
 
Do you really think Dhoni is a better WK batsman than Gilchrist?

there are 3 parts to this

1. wkt keeping(both tests & onedayers combined)

Here we cannot judge as to who was better of the 2 based on the no: of dismissals alone because a keeper
can take a catch or have a stumping which comes across his way only. For instance,take Alan knott.His
dismissals/test ratio is lower than several keepers,yet he is widely regarded as one of the top
wicket keepers of all time.So Healy,Dujon,Kirmani,Bari,Rod Marsh,Knott,Dhoni,Gilchrist,Boucher
and several others were all caliber keepers of all time in that it is really difficlut to rank them
based on their no: ofdismissals alone.Any way it is only justifiable to assume that only marginal
differences in calibre exists in one to one comparison between any two of these keepers.

2.test batting - here Gichrist was so superior to Dhoni.a bat avg: of almost 48 + str: rate of 82
in 96 tests makes him vastly superior.He has played many impact knocks in several countries too.
Despite all the positives he enjoyed as being part of an ATG team his batting record is still phenomenal.
The undisputed best among specialist test wicket keepers.But Dhoni with 38 bat avg: is good in his own
self.Despite this being in todays batting friendly conditions, i would say that his batting performance
eclipses that of several greats like Healy,Boucher,Knott,Bari,Kirmani etc.More over Dhoni was no bad in non
subcontinental conditions either as a lot of posters claim here.Dhoni the test batsman cannot be judged
from the point of view of a specialist batsman.So it is unfair to expect many test 100s from him outside
the subcontiment.unless the player is a certain Gilchrist, there are not many keepers with that much 100s
in alien conditions.Based on that, if we go thru Dhoni 'about 70'knocks out side subcontinent there are
several quality knocks he has played.His 'about 70' + '55+ & not out' comes to around 15 in number.So
all in all Dhoni has a very good track record as far as test batting is concerned.Only Gilly, Prior,
A.Flower,Brendon Mcullum were better test batsmen than Dhoni for me.Infact if i missed out some names,
i am sure those names are only a handful.

3.One daybatting - Dhoni far ahead of any other batsman including Gilly. Gilly too was very good with
some memorable knocks,but Dhoni 52 avg:, 90 str:rate, several match finishing knocks especially in 2nd inns,
his brilliant captaincy to lead India to several cup titles all make him the undisputed best in one dayers
among wicket kepeers.

So all in all Gilchrist the best wicket keeper batsman of all time for me. Dhoni closely follows him.Both
are ATG cricketers too.In a deeper analyses,There may be some other ATG candidates wicket keepers too.
 
there are 3 parts to this

1. wkt keeping(both tests & onedayers combined)

Here we cannot judge as to who was better of the 2 based on the no: of dismissals alone because a keeper
can take a catch or have a stumping which comes across his way only. For instance,take Alan knott.His
dismissals/test ratio is lower than several keepers,yet he is widely regarded as one of the top
wicket keepers of all time.So Healy,Dujon,Kirmani,Bari,Rod Marsh,Knott,Dhoni,Gilchrist,Boucher
and several others were all caliber keepers of all time in that it is really difficlut to rank them
based on their no: ofdismissals alone.Any way it is only justifiable to assume that only marginal
differences in calibre exists in one to one comparison between any two of these keepers.

2.test batting - here Gichrist was so superior to Dhoni.a bat avg: of almost 48 + str: rate of 82
in 96 tests makes him vastly superior.He has played many impact knocks in several countries too.
Despite all the positives he enjoyed as being part of an ATG team his batting record is still phenomenal.
The undisputed best among specialist test wicket keepers.But Dhoni with 38 bat avg: is good in his own
self.Despite this being in todays batting friendly conditions, i would say that his batting performance
eclipses that of several greats like Healy,Boucher,Knott,Bari,Kirmani etc.More over Dhoni was no bad in non
subcontinental conditions either as a lot of posters claim here.Dhoni the test batsman cannot be judged
from the point of view of a specialist batsman.So it is unfair to expect many test 100s from him outside
the subcontiment.unless the player is a certain Gilchrist, there are not many keepers with that much 100s
in alien conditions.Based on that, if we go thru Dhoni 'about 70'knocks out side subcontinent there are
several quality knocks he has played.His 'about 70' + '55+ & not out' comes to around 15 in number.So
all in all Dhoni has a very good track record as far as test batting is concerned.Only Gilly, Prior,
A.Flower,Brendon Mcullum were better test batsmen than Dhoni for me.Infact if i missed out some names,
i am sure those names are only a handful.

3.One daybatting - Dhoni far ahead of any other batsman including Gilly. Gilly too was very good with
some memorable knocks,but Dhoni 52 avg:, 90 str:rate, several match finishing knocks especially in 2nd inns,
his brilliant captaincy to lead India to several cup titles all make him the undisputed best in one dayers
among wicket kepeers.

So all in all Gilchrist the best wicket keeper batsman of all time for me. Dhoni closely follows him.Both
are ATG cricketers too.In a deeper analyses,There may be some other ATG candidates wicket keepers too.


Pretty good analysis and I agree to most of it. However, Gilchrist was a very destructive ODI opener. He scored 9K+ runs at strike rate of 97! Sometimes, he completely took the game away from the opposition in the first 15 overs. I think his contribution at the top was as useful as Dhoni's as a finisher. However, Gilchrist was a better keeper. Some people might take Dhoni over Gilchrist in ODIs but that will be their personal choice. However, both Dhoni and Gilchrist are quite comparable in ODIs.

# of centuries is a must for a test batsman. Dhoni not scoring a single century in 45 away test matches really makes his case week in tests. In my opinion, in tests he was good as Prior or Haddin or Mccullum. Gilchrist, Sangakkarra, and Flower were all better wicket keeper batsmen.
 
Pretty good analysis and I agree to most of it. However, Gilchrist was a very destructive ODI opener. He scored 9K+ runs at strike rate of 97! Sometimes, he completely took the game away from the opposition in the first 15 overs. I think his contribution at the top was as useful as Dhoni's as a finisher. However, Gilchrist was a better keeper. Some people might take Dhoni over Gilchrist in ODIs but that will be their personal choice. However, both Dhoni and Gilchrist are quite comparable in ODIs.

# of centuries is a must for a test batsman. Dhoni not scoring a single century in 45 away test matches really makes his case week in tests. In my opinion, in tests he was good as Prior or Haddin or Mccullum. Gilchrist, Sangakkarra, and Flower were all better wicket keeper batsmen.

i went thru your post w.r.t to runs/inns and str:rates of both Gilly and Dhoni. but we must not forget 2 things.Dhoni's avg: is 52.That means had he continued with his not out scores,he could have much larger
runs/inns value than that of Gilly .Secondly 89 and 97 str: rates are w.r.t 100 balls .So when we convert that to actual runs/ball count
Dhoni 37.4 in 42 balls
Gilly 34.4 in 35.5 balls
not much of a difference.
Also Gilly enjoyed field restrictions,being part of ATG team etc etc.In deeper analysis Dhoni too might had such sort of advantages.But Finishing matches is a skill which deserves the most marks.Dhoni has played several such high quality knocks in crunch situations.His 91 in 2011 world cup final and his 'last over 15 runs'achieved with 1 wkt remaining in a final in SL immediately comes to mind. Like wise Dhoni has several match finishing knocks in 2nd inns.

Any way Dhoni's finishing skill and his one day captaincy combined with his other skills as one day player makes him conveniently better to Gilly in onedayers for me.

Of the players you mentioned Sanga can't be taken as a genuine wk.How many 100s have Prior in the subcontinent(his alien conditions just as is the case with Dhoni outside Asia)? Flower.. i agreed.He was a better test batsman to Dhoni.But Dhoni has better logevity and comfortably better
one day records when compared to Flower. More over how many wicket keepers have that many 100s in alien conditions other than Gilly & Flower?
 
i went thru your post w.r.t to runs/inns and str:rates of both Gilly and Dhoni. but we must not forget 2 things.Dhoni's avg: is 52.That means had he continued with his not out scores,he could have much larger
runs/inns value than that of Gilly .Secondly 89 and 97 str: rates are w.r.t 100 balls .So when we convert that to actual runs/ball count
Dhoni 37.4 in 42 balls
Gilly 34.4 in 35.5 balls
not much of a difference.
Also Gilly enjoyed field restrictions,being part of ATG team etc etc.In deeper analysis Dhoni too might had such sort of advantages.But Finishing matches is a skill which deserves the most marks.Dhoni has played several such high quality knocks in crunch situations.His 91 in 2011 world cup final and his 'last over 15 runs'achieved with 1 wkt remaining in a final in SL immediately comes to mind. Like wise Dhoni has several match finishing knocks in 2nd inns.

Any way Dhoni's finishing skill and his one day captaincy combined with his other skills as one day player makes him conveniently better to Gilly in onedayers for me.

Of the players you mentioned Sanga can't be taken as a genuine wk.How many 100s have Prior in the subcontinent(his alien conditions just as is the case with Dhoni outside Asia)? Flower.. i agreed.He was a better test batsman to Dhoni.But Dhoni has better logevity and comfortably better
one day records when compared to Flower. More over how many wicket keepers have that many 100s in alien conditions other than Gilly & Flower?

Gilchrist's 149 on 104 at a strike rate of 143 with 8 sixes was easily the better knock than Dhoni's 91 on 79 bowls at a strike rate of 115 with 2 sixes. The bowling attack that Gilchrist faced also had Vaas, peek Murlitharan, and red-hot Malinga.

For me, Gilchrist was a superior wicket-keeper batsman even in ODIs for these reasons:

1. Dhoni's peak years are over, he will regress from here and runs per innings will go down. So, in the end, Gilchrist might have higher ratio.
2. Gilchrist strike rate of 97 was in an era which was less batting friendly, still then it is better than Dhoni's strike rate of 89 in current batting friendly conditions.
3. Gilchrist is widely regarded as the best WK batsman by cricket experts and his peers.
4. Gilchrist was also a brilliant captain. He just did not get a chance to captain the Australian side because Ponting was another gun player.
5. Gilchrist revolutionized the concept of WK batsman and was the major factor in making Australian team stand-out from the rest.
 
Dhoni is an ATG because of being captain, leading India to World Cups and being an awesome player in ODI.

Gilchrist is an ATG because he revolutionized the game.

I rate the latter higher than Dhoni but that's my own bias perhaps.

Not to say Dhoni is anything less, but Gilchrist was one of those, who totally changed the complexion of the game opening the batting whenever he fired.

No one can beat Gilchrist.
 
Gilchrist's 149 on 104 at a strike rate of 143 with 8 sixes was easily the better knock than Dhoni's 91 on 79 bowls at a strike rate of 115 with 2 sixes. The bowling attack that Gilchrist faced also had Vaas, peek Murlitharan, and red-hot Malinga.

For me, Gilchrist was a superior wicket-keeper batsman even in ODIs for these reasons:

1. Dhoni's peak years are over, he will regress from here and runs per innings will go down. So, in the end, Gilchrist might have higher ratio.
2. Gilchrist strike rate of 97 was in an era which was less batting friendly, still then it is better than Dhoni's strike rate of 89 in current batting friendly conditions.
3. Gilchrist is widely regarded as the best WK batsman by cricket experts and his peers.
4. Gilchrist was also a brilliant captain. He just did not get a chance to captain the Australian side because Ponting was another gun player.
5. Gilchrist revolutionized the concept of WK batsman and was the major factor in making Australian team stand-out from the rest.
Gilly was batting first and that too opening the inns.bUT Dhoni was chasing and when he came to the crease 3 wkts
had already fallen.More over dhoni was playing in front of the home crowd with added responsibility of being the
captain.Dhoni in the end was 'not out' means he could have added lot more to the inns too.So despite the difference
in str: rate and runs scored , the ratings of these 2 inns can't differ by much ,either way. So each to his own.
In any case i was not at all comparing these 2 inns.I POINTED TO his 91* in world cup as one among several of his
match finishing knocks.
w.r.t to your other points.
1. Both Dhoni and Gilly have almost 9000 runs as of now.So even if Dhoni's runs/inns go down moving forward it can
only be considered as terminal decline which has happend even to the best of batsmen.That doesn't take any thing
away from Dhoni.

2.As i already specified,those str:rates when taken into account on the basis of runs scored/balls taken doesn't make
much of a difference.More over Dhoni avg:ed 52.That means had he continued with his not outs in any case, he could
easily have put more runs/inns to his name.After all 35(Gilly's avg:) & 52 is vastly different in no:S .
Again the role of a finisher is not at all about str:rate only. it includes pacing the inns,rotating the strike
as per the situation,batting efficiently with tail enders etc etc.For eg: take Dhoni's knock vs SL where he took
India to a 1 wkt win.in that case str: rate hardly mattered because the target was only some 150 odd,but wkts
were falling around Dhoni.His pacing the inns was so brilliant.This fact of Dhoni's batting, that is master minding
a chase, gets a lot of marks

4.'had Gilly been captain'is another matter .Thefact is he didn't captain.
 
Gilly was batting first and that too opening the inns.bUT Dhoni was chasing and when he came to the crease 3 wkts
had already fallen.More over dhoni was playing in front of the home crowd with added responsibility of being the
captain.Dhoni in the end was 'not out' means he could have added lot more to the inns too.So despite the difference
in str: rate and runs scored , the ratings of these 2 inns can't differ by much ,either way. So each to his own.
In any case i was not at all comparing these 2 inns.I POINTED TO his 91* in world cup as one among several of his
match finishing knocks.
w.r.t to your other points.
1. Both Dhoni and Gilly have almost 9000 runs as of now.So even if Dhoni's runs/inns go down moving forward it can
only be considered as terminal decline which has happend even to the best of batsmen.That doesn't take any thing
away from Dhoni.

2.As i already specified,those str:rates when taken into account on the basis of runs scored/balls taken doesn't make
much of a difference.More over Dhoni avg:ed 52.That means had he continued with his not outs in any case, he could
easily have put more runs/inns to his name.After all 35(Gilly's avg:) & 52 is vastly different in no:S .
Again the role of a finisher is not at all about str:rate only. it includes pacing the inns,rotating the strike
as per the situation,batting efficiently with tail enders etc etc.For eg: take Dhoni's knock vs SL where he took
India to a 1 wkt win.in that case str: rate hardly mattered because the target was only some 150 odd,but wkts
were falling around Dhoni.His pacing the inns was so brilliant.This fact of Dhoni's batting, that is master minding
a chase, gets a lot of marks

4.'had Gilly been captain'is another matter .Thefact is he didn't captain.

McCallum also opened and batted first in 2015 WC final. The pressure got the better of him and he got out on duck which completely demoralized the New Zealanders and they were never able to come back into the game. Gilchirist should get the credit for playing absolutely outstanding innings which completely took the game away from Sri Lanka. I think you also forgot to mention Gambhir's contribution in that final. He was as good as Dhoni that day.

Gilchrist was an opener and Dhoni mostly batted at #7. Their average comparison is irrelevant. Dhoni's average is inflated with not-outs. Going by your logic, Imran Khan was a superior batsman to Kapil Dev because his batting average was much higher.
 
No questions asked.

Who else can you well and truly call "finisher" in ODIs other than Bevan and Dhoni?

No one.

Maybe Umar Akmal in the future :uakmal
 
If and when International teams start playing 25-30% of total time in T-20 then it will be fine but right now T-20 international is probably less than 5% of total cricket at top level.

Same situation was there when ODI started, but in the last 20-25 years, ODI occupied a huge part of international cricket.

IPL and CLT20 have been a large enough part of the calendar and including so many gun players that pretending it didn't happen is absurd.

My argument here is the same one [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] makes about Kerry Packer's matches and stats from those. I think these things are very relevant. The man has captained his side to a win in every limited overs competition he played. IPL, CLT20, Champions Trophy, WC, T20 World Cup.

That is not a big achievement; that is humongous. Imran Khan won one of those and became a national hero forever; the magnitude of this achievement of Dhoni is gigantic and no it isn't because Joginder Sharma, Munaf Patel, Sir Ishant Sharma and Sreesanth are ATG bowlers that he achieved all this, his captaincy decisions had a huge impact.
 
average is inflated by not outs

This statement completely misunderstands what average is.

Not-out is not an 'inflation' or a 'bug' it's a specific feature because you're measuring runs per dismissal, not runs per innings.

That's why avg is less relevant than SR for T20.

In any case, Gilchrist batted up front under no pressure with field restrictions and that can't be compared with facing older ball (in one ball days) without restrictions and with 5 guys out as Dhoni did for most of his career.

Why not filter and see what happened when Dhoni played in top order?
 
McCallum also opened and batted first in 2015 WC final. The pressure got the better of him and he got out on duck which completely demoralized the New Zealanders and they were never able to come back into the game. Gilchirist should get the credit for playing absolutely outstanding innings which completely took the game away from Sri Lanka. I think you also forgot to mention Gambhir's contribution in that final. He was as good as Dhoni that day.

Gilchrist was an opener and Dhoni mostly batted at #7. Their average comparison is irrelevant. Dhoni's average is inflated with not-outs. Going by your logic, Imran Khan was a superior batsman to Kapil Dev because his batting average was much higher.

see...i am not at all belittling Gilly's knock. Infact i didn't select either one of these 2 knocks as one better over the other.i only indicated the context upon which these knocks were played .and i do not have a complaint with any body
who pick either one of these as the better one.

As i always believe,when we compare 2 players, we need to compare the plus and minus of the 2 players in several factors and after that reach a conclusion as to who is the better.Imran-Kapil case is different from this one. So let us not take that here and stick to 'Gilly-Dhoni '.


you are saying that Dhoni's avg: is inflated due to 'notouts'.Agreed. But can you deny the fact that 'had Dhoni in any hypothetical scenario went on with
several of his not out inns his runs/inns value would have been much larger
than 37.5.Gilly played as an opener and hence he had to face the moving ball which Dhoni didn't need to. But Gilly was a part of much better over all unit and he enjoyed field restrictions that Dhoni didn't.Similarly ,in deeper analysis there maybe several other similar factors in which one had advantage over the other.

But what ever said and done their difference in bat avg: is very high(35: 52 in
favour of Dhoni).And that 89,97 str: rates too are negligible when we
take them in runs/ball count, as i calculated already.

i place a very high weightage on 'being a 2nd inns finisher'.That doesn't mean
doing it at a very high str: rate all the time.Some times you need to play out a few balls based on the NO: of wkts fallen,then accelerate etc etc.So basically it is all about mixing caution with aggression depending on the situation.Despite that,Dhoni could maintain a very high str: of 89. And Dhoni has played quite a number of such match finishing knocks in one dayers.

To add to that Dhoni's brilliant captaincy which brought 2 or 3 world titiles
makes him better to Gilly as a pure one day player for me.
 
Without question in ODIs where he happens to be by far the best match winner middle order batsman.

His test credentials though hurt his chances to be acknowledged as an overall ATG Cricketer. Indian fans will vividly remember his contributions to our cricket, he is a revolutionary and took it to the next level.

A great leader, a great servant of Indian cricket. He had swag, very down to earth as well. MSD will be missed big time in the ODI team when he retires. India will effectively be half the side if they don't find someone half as good in that position.
 
An ATG is one whose name will still be mentioned for their cricketing skill well after their cricketing careers have ended. Examples being Bradman, Viv Richards, Holding, SRT, Imran etc.

MS is of Bevan's mould and his name is barely mentioned. Outside of India MS is considered good but not great and will be slowly forgotten much like Bevan.
 
No.

ODI's and T20's matter as much nowadays.

Dhoni is one of the greatest players ever to play cricket and has won everything for India.

Dhoni has never scored a 100 in ODIs outside Asia. The world cup he won was a home tournament which he is very good at. We should have won the 96 cup too of not for Azhar's fixing.
 
Dhoni has completely sucked in T20s for a long, long time now. I have no idea how someone would claim he is good in T20s.
 
Unlike Pakistan, system works very differently in India. Here selectors and coaches are fine, its the skipper who takes most of the call including team selection. Heck India does not have a full time proper coach for long time.

Indian skipper is the most powerful man in Indian cricket. His word is the last word. Everyone listens and respects his opinion. Hence less infightings etc. within which we see in other teams.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

Really? The skipper has more power than the selectors in terms of team selection?
 
People don't even need to talk about his ODI credentials. Those are universally acknowledged and I would pick him over Gilly in my all-time ODI XI. However, that is not enough to make him an ATG, just like Bevan's or Lee's excellent ODI record isn't enough to make them ATGs.
 
Really? The skipper has more power than the selectors in terms of team selection?
Not more power but skipper has the major say in team selection. All the playing XI you see playing for India on field are selected with the agreement of the captain. Obviously there are handful of selections which is not agreed by skipper but the numbers are minimal.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk
 
Not more power but skipper has the major say in team selection. All the playing XI you see playing for India on field are selected with the agreement of the captain. Obviously there are handful of selections which is not agreed by skipper but the numbers are minimal.

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That is how things should be. The captain is the guy who is going to lead the players on the field so he should be able to pick his preferred players. Of course, that can lead to players being selected based on who the captain likes or dislikes but when such a policy is in place, the board will come down harder on the captain after series losses.

This was how Imran's Pakistan operated as well.
 
ATG for me, no matter what one says. Also one of my favorite players to come from India.
 
a bit surprised to see several posts questioning Dhoni's test credentials. He played 90 tests.So it ticks the column for longevity because not many keepers in history has played over 100 tests. And then he avg:s 38 having scored almost 5000 runs playing mostly at 7th position. You can't expect to score that much 100s especially in alien conditions by playing at that position. how many wicket keepers managed to do this? He has played several +65 knocks
allround the world of which some where very vital to team cause.Scored 6 100s too, though all were in sub continent.But then i can't recall that many wk/batsmen who avg:ed 38 after playing 90 test matches and having scored
a lot of test 100s in alien conditions other than Gilly & Flower. That means Dhoni is an ATG wicket keeper batsman .His undisputed ATG status in onedayers combines with his ATG test wicketkeeper/batsman status to make
a certain ATG cricketer for me.
 
Nayan Mongia for one..

Mongia was a good keeper but Dhoni was definitely better batsman than Nayan...Nayan did not do anything great with the bat to be called better than Dhoni as an overall better Wicket keeper/Batsman.
 
This statement completely misunderstands what average is.

Not-out is not an 'inflation' or a 'bug' it's a specific feature because you're measuring runs per dismissal, not runs per innings.

That's why avg is less relevant than SR for T20.

In any case, Gilchrist batted up front under no pressure with field restrictions and that can't be compared with facing older ball (in one ball days) without restrictions and with 5 guys out as Dhoni did for most of his career.

Why not filter and see what happened when Dhoni played in top order?

I learnt something new today that not-outs do not affect average. So, are you implying that openers face no pressure because they bat up front? Going by your logic, all of Tendulkar's runs as an opener were also soft then and Dhoni becomes even greater batsman than Tendulkar which no sane person would agree to.
 
A players greatness is judged by his peak period and he was an absolute beast while he lasted. Add captaincy and wicket-keeping skills.
Worthy enough for ATG status in ODIs for me.
 
Honest Admission - one of the rare discussions that I haven't read for different reasons.

My personal ATG list of Indian Cricketers

1. Kapil Dev
2. Sunil Gavaskar
3. MS Dhoni
4. Sachin Tendular
5. Anil Kumble

Totally based on my personal preference and liking and no, I haven't seen Gavaskar or Kapil play.

The batsman that I feared the most was Virender Sehwag but he isn't ATG in my book. A good and improved version of Srikant and Sandeep Patil.

One player who I believe has all the talent to displace MS from his third in my list is Kohli.

Sorry to interfere - now continue with the discussion :))
 
a bit surprised to see several posts questioning Dhoni's test credentials. He played 90 tests.So it ticks the column for longevity because not many keepers in history has played over 100 tests. And then he avg:s 38 having scored almost 5000 runs playing mostly at 7th position. You can't expect to score that much 100s especially in alien conditions by playing at that position. how many wicket keepers managed to do this? He has played several +65 knocks
allround the world of which some where very vital to team cause.Scored 6 100s too, though all were in sub continent.But then i can't recall that many wk/batsmen who avg:ed 38 after playing 90 test matches and having scored
a lot of test 100s in alien conditions other than Gilly & Flower. That means Dhoni is an ATG wicket keeper batsman .His undisputed ATG status in onedayers combines with his ATG test wicketkeeper/batsman status to make
a certain ATG cricketer for me.

Playing more number of matches has nothing to do with one being an ATG in that format. Dhoni played way too many games than he should have actually played. Dhoni was an undisputed king in ODIs and India did not have a better keeper batsman and captain than Dhoni. This was the only reason, he was persisted with in tests.

That's how Dhoni performed (series averages) every time India visited England, Australia, and South Africa.

India in South Africa Test Series, 2006/07 = 26.00
Pataudi Trophy (India in England), 2007 = 52.25
Border-Gavaskar Trophy (India in Australia), 2007/08 = 17.62
India in South Africa Test Series, 2010/11 = 35.80
Pataudi Trophy (India in England), 2011 = 31.42
Border-Gavaskar Trophy (India in Australia), 2011/12 = 20.40
India in South Africa Test Series, 2013/14 = 21.75
Pataudi Trophy (India in England), 2014 = 34.90
Border-Gavaskar Trophy (India in Australia), 2014/15 = 22.66

Only in 2007 tour of England, he had a decent performance where he scored 2 50s. One of them was a good inning which helped India to draw a test. The second one was in a run fest. Heck, even Kumble scored a century in that inning.

He never scored a century in any away test (barring Pakistan), not sure how can he be called an ATG wicket-keeper batsman in tests. He was just a good keeper who could score a 50 here and there.

He hardly has any stats in tests to be considered as an ATG in tests.
 
Playing more number of matches has nothing to do with one being an ATG in that format. Dhoni played way too many games than he should have actually played. Dhoni was an undisputed king in ODIs and India did not have a better keeper batsman and captain than Dhoni. This was the only reason, he was persisted with in tests.

That's how Dhoni performed (series averages) every time India visited England, Australia, and South Africa.

India in South Africa Test Series, 2006/07 = 26.00
Pataudi Trophy (India in England), 2007 = 52.25
Border-Gavaskar Trophy (India in Australia), 2007/08 = 17.62
India in South Africa Test Series, 2010/11 = 35.80
Pataudi Trophy (India in England), 2011 = 31.42
Border-Gavaskar Trophy (India in Australia), 2011/12 = 20.40
India in South Africa Test Series, 2013/14 = 21.75
Pataudi Trophy (India in England), 2014 = 34.90
Border-Gavaskar Trophy (India in Australia), 2014/15 = 22.66

Only in 2007 tour of England, he had a decent performance where he scored 2 50s. One of them was a good inning which helped India to draw a test. The second one was in a run fest. Heck, even Kumble scored a century in that inning.

He never scored a century in any away test (barring Pakistan), not sure how can he be called an ATG wicket-keeper batsman in tests. He was just a good keeper who could score a 50 here and there.

He hardly has any stats in tests to be considered as an ATG in tests.

Longevity related to peers indeed is one criteria required for an ATG. For eg:
Kambli avg:Ed 54. Dravid avg:Ed 52+ only. Kambli avg:Ed better.Would you
consider Kambli to be a better player than Dravid? So longevity counts. A player with 50 avg: having played around 100 matches will be much better
for me than some body who avg:ed the same in 50 matches.

Whether Dhoni was persisted with in tests based on his one day credentials is not the important factor.How Dhoni performed in tests is that which actually counts.Dhoni avg:Ed almost 30 in AUS+SAF+NZL+ENG+WI combined . He scored almost 2000 runs in AUS+SAF+NZL+ENG+WI at a descent str:rate of 56.Has played some 15 68+scores in these conditions.Some of these knocks were very vital to the team cause too.

btw baring Gilly & Flower you suggest some keeper names to me who avg:ed atleast 30 and scored lot many 100s in their alien conditions in the entire test cricket history
 
Honest Admission - one of the rare discussions that I haven't read for different reasons.

My personal ATG list of Indian Cricketers

1. Kapil Dev
2. Sunil Gavaskar
3. MS Dhoni
4. Sachin Tendular
5. Anil Kumble

Totally based on my personal preference and liking and no, I haven't seen Gavaskar or Kapil play.

The batsman that I feared the most was Virender Sehwag but he isn't ATG in my book. A good and improved version of Srikant and Sandeep Patil.

One player who I believe has all the talent to displace MS from his third in my list is Kohli.

Sorry to interfere - now continue with the discussion :))

if Kumble is there so can Dravid be
 
if Kumble is there so can Dravid be

So could Ganguly, Azharudin, Sirnath (seriously, I rate him highly), Yuvraj, Mohinder Amarnath, Gundapa Vishwanath, Vijay Hazare, and many others but they are not.

I guess, since it is my list and mostly based on my feelings towards cricketers, I have some right of keeping it to my own likes and dislikes. Don't you agree with that my friend?
 
btw baring Gilly & Flower you suggest some keeper names to me who avg:ed atleast 30 and scored lot many 100s in their alien conditions in the entire test cricket history

Les Ames, Matt Prior, Jeff Dujon, Alan Knott and Alec Stewart were all keepers with good records who managed to do well overseas. I'm English so these are off the top of my head, sure there's a few from other countries that people can add.
 
So could Ganguly, Azharudin, Sirnath (seriously, I rate him highly), Yuvraj, Mohinder Amarnath, Gundapa Vishwanath, Vijay Hazare, and many others but they are not.

I guess, since it is my list and mostly based on my feelings towards cricketers, I have some right of keeping it to my own likes and dislikes. Don't you agree with that my friend?


ok.....mate ...sorry.... you have the right to consider any body you like as an ATG.:farhat
 
Les Ames, Matt Prior, Jeff Dujon, Alan Knott and Alec Stewart were all keepers with good records who managed to do well overseas. I'm English so these are off the top of my head, sure there's a few from other countries that people can add.
ok did all the players you mention scored a lot of 100s overseas(especially alien, i mean for Knott it is subcontinent,for Kiran more it is swinging conditions etc etc.)Plus they need to avg: 30+ too
 
Dhoni has completely sucked in T20s for a long, long time now. I have no idea how someone would claim he is good in T20s.

Don't think he got enough deliveries to score big runs. In nearly half the innings he had remained not out, his T20i avg is pretty good as well. Im sure it would be higher if he batted up early.
 
ok did all the players you mention scored a lot of 100s overseas(especially alien, i mean for Knott it is subcontinent,for Kiran more it is swinging conditions etc etc.)Plus they need to avg: 30+ too

All the above players average 30+ (and all average 30+ overseas as well with Knott and Prior averaging over 40) and have multiple overseas 100s.
 
And I posted a similar stat yesterday but in reference to him keeping and batting at 7, he comes in at a placing of 13th in terms of his average in games in which he keeps and bats at 7 (min 20 tests).
 
All the above players average 30+ (and all average 30+ overseas as well with Knott and Prior averaging over 40) and have multiple overseas 100s.

i just went thru the records of Knott,Prior,Stewart & Dujon. i could see that none of them could score a
single 100 in Asia(just as AUS+ENG+SAF+NZL+WI is for Dhoni).Knott came very close with 96* in India though
.Since it is not out score i will take it as a 100 for him.And Knott & Prior avg:ed 37 & 39.45 in ASIA
too.But they all played in 2 or 3 countries only IND,PAK& SL.More over their sample size in Asia is very
less.Knott,Prior,Dujon,Stewart played 16,16,16,10 tests respectively in Asia.Dhoni played 39 tests and that too
in 5 countries.So his avg: of 30 in these alien countries compete strongly with those of the other 4 players
 
No. Odis performance holds no value in deciding the ATGs tag and that's the format where Dhoni excelled the most.
 
i just went thru the records of Knott,Prior,Stewart & Dujon. i could see that none of them could score a
single 100 in Asia(just as AUS+ENG+SAF+NZL+WI is for Dhoni).Knott came very close with 96* in India though
.Since it is not out score i will take it as a 100 for him.And Knott & Prior avg:ed 37 & 39.45 in ASIA
too.But they all played in 2 or 3 countries only IND,PAK& SL.More over their sample size in Asia is very
less.Knott,Prior,Dujon,Stewart played 16,16,16,10 tests respectively in Asia.Dhoni played 39 tests and that too
in 5 countries.So his avg: of 30 in these alien countries compete strongly with those of the other 4 players

I'd still prefer a player who had a good record in the majority of countries around the world than one that turned into a flop as soon as he crossed the border most of the time.
 
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I'd still prefer a player who had a good record in the majority of countries around the world than one that turned into a flop as soon as he crossed the border most of the time.


In over all avg: & longevity Dhoni competes strongly with all the players you mentioned.Also none of them
scored lots of 100s in their alien countries just like Dhoni.Prior and Knott may have better avg: in
subcountient(their alien countries).But Dhoni's large sample size(39 tests) spread over 5 countries narrows
the gap considerably because it is much more difficult to maintain high avg: by playing in more nO:
of countries and in lot more no: of test matches.

Add to that Dhoni is a certified ATG 1 DAY player.

So both test and 1 dayers combined, i don't find any of these players overtaking Dhoni.Any way each to his own
 
Longevity related to peers indeed is one criteria required for an ATG. For eg:
Kambli avg:Ed 54. Dravid avg:Ed 52+ only. Kambli avg:Ed better.Would you
consider Kambli to be a better player than Dravid? So longevity counts. A player with 50 avg: having played around 100 matches will be much better
for me than some body who avg:ed the same in 50 matches.

Whether Dhoni was persisted with in tests based on his one day credentials is not the important factor.How Dhoni performed in tests is that which actually counts.Dhoni avg:Ed almost 30 in AUS+SAF+NZL+ENG+WI combined . He scored almost 2000 runs in AUS+SAF+NZL+ENG+WI at a descent str:rate of 56.Has played some 15 68+scores in these conditions.Some of these knocks were very vital to the team cause too.

btw baring Gilly & Flower you suggest some keeper names to me who avg:ed atleast 30 and scored lot many 100s in their alien conditions in the entire test cricket history

Your argument for longevity does not hold true because Dhoni averaged less than his career average in 8 out of 9 series that he played in Australia, England, and South Africa (the top test sides of his time). Only once, he scored at 50+ average in England and in of his innings even Kumble outscored him. He did not even score a single century anywhere other than India and Pakistan. Longevity has nothing to do with Dhoni's mediocre batting stats in tests. Even in his peak years, he was averaging
in 20s and 30s outside home.

Comparison of Dravid (170 tests) to Kambli (17 tests) is not even relevant here. There is a massive difference between the number of tests they played. Flower, Gilchrist, Ames, and Prior, all played 40+ matches (comparable sample size) and averaged better than Dhoni in tests.
 
Your argument for longevity does not hold true because Dhoni averaged less than his career average in 8 out of 9 series that he played in Australia, England, and South Africa (the top test sides of his time). Only once, he scored at 50+ average in England and in of his innings even Kumble outscored him. He did not even score a single century anywhere other than India and Pakistan. Longevity has nothing to do with Dhoni's mediocre batting stats in tests. Even in his peak years, he was averaging
in 20s and 30s outside home.

Comparison of Dravid (170 tests) to Kambli (17 tests) is not even relevant here. There is a massive difference between the number of tests they played. Flower, Gilchrist, Ames, and Prior, all played 40+ matches (comparable sample size) and averaged better than Dhoni in tests.


I have narrated clearly thru my posts as to why i consider Dhoni as an ATG. nOTHING more i have to say.
i shall stick with my opinion and you shall with yours. no regrets:farhat
 
BUMP

Wins Another Title. Cometh the hour cometh the great man. Just completely nails it with his big hitting. What seemed like a tight finish turned out to be a EAASY win.

MSD now has won EVERY single trophy that there is and has done so by being a contributor himself while being handicapped with modest bowling resources.

:bow:
 
Should have won 3 more Asia cups.

We were the better team in all 5 previous editions but only won 2 of them.
 
Once again he shows in this tournament what MS Dhoni is all about.

Fast hands for run outs, stuming, direct hits, fielding.

Hits sixes at will whenever he comes out to bat. Proved again why he is the best finisher in the world.

Under pressure he is the best. Very good captaincy from him on field. Calm cool.

50 over WC, 20 over WC, Champions trophy, #1 in ODI rankings, test rankings, T20 rankings.

And now the Asia cup...

Phewww.. Or we can just say MS Dhoni..... :bow:
 
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Some more facts and quotes about Dhoni

QUOTES :

"I would go to a war with Dhoni by my side." : Gary Kirsten

" I played under many captains but Dhoni is the one who fulfilled my dreams" : Sachin

"MSD is not 2nd Gilly, he is the 1st Dhoni" : Gilly

" Lucky to play under captain like Dhoni": Bravo

"I dont know how Dhoni handles such pressure conditions" : Misbah

"India is lucky to have MSD as captain. I am a big fan of him" : jayasurya

"God gifted me to play under captain like Dhoni" : M. Hussey

" Every Pakistani will be happy to exchange Misbah with Dhoni because such is a craze for him in Pakistan" : Ramiz Raja

"If you come to SL, you will find MSD fans more than any SL player" : Dhoni

"MSD is one of the greatest player ever to have played cricket" : Warne

"MSD is the man who stands alone in game when 100 runs are needed from 30 balls and still opposition changes fields repeatedly" : Siddhu

"Dhoni's faith in me was turning point of my career" : Dhoni

"Dhoni has respect of all other playing nations. I've found him to be a really strong leader" : Glenn McGrath

"Cant understand why they go to 3rd umpire and waste time when Dhoni already started celebrating the wicket" : Warne

"If I can control MSD in nets, I can control anyone" : DJ Bravo

" MSD is the most clever captain ever I have seen" : KP

"Our team is like an army. Have to follow what your leader says, no matter what. If my captain tells me to die, I will" : Ashwin on Dhoni

"We learn a lot about captaincy from Dhoni" : Faf Du Plesis

"MSD is the only leader in team of captains" : Baz

"If 15 runs are needed in the last over, pressure in on bowler not Dhoni" : Ian Bishop

"Once Dhoni retires he should write a book on field placements" : Ganguly

"Let them hate him now but they will understand his importance the day he retires" : Ganguly


"Its strange that so many Indians hate MSD, Pakistan is dying to have someone like him" : S. Malik

FACTS:

* Fastest to 8000 ODI runs:
1. ABD in 182 innings and playing 81% of his games in top 4 batting positions.
2. Ganguly in 200 innings and playing 96% of his games in top 4 batting positions.
3. Tendulkar in 210 innings and playing 91% of his games in top 4 batting positions.
4. Lara in 211 innings and playing 84% of his games in top 4 batting positions.
5. Dhoni in 214 innings and playing 17% of his games in top 4 batting positions.

*MSD average at different positions

No. 3 : 82.76
No. 4 : 68.40
No. 5 : 54.45
No. 6 : 45.78
No. 7 : 47.76

*MSD is the first ever player to hit 50 sixes in test cricket as a captain

*Only wicketkeeper batsman in Test history to have scored 200 runs in a day

*MSD was named captain of Wisdens first ever test dream team in 2009

*103.00 Highest Average in successful chases

*MSD was in Top 10 ICC ODI batsman rankings from 2007 to 2015.

* MSD has 3rd most wins as a captain in ODIs

*MSD has scored 92.2% of his total runs against top 8 teams

* 9 times MSD has hit a six to win an ODI. Noone has done this before

* MSD is the fastest player to reach 1000 runs at #4 position in ODIs. In just 20 innings. 2nd is Virat in 21 innings.

* MSD has the best average for India as a captain in WC. Avg : 58.2

* MSD has world record of fastest stumping in 0.35 seconds.

*MSD never toured any minnow country but still he is fastest Asian captain to win 100 ODIs

*MSD vs others test record against top 8 teams:

Captain W / L / D Win%
Dhoni 26/ 18/15 44%
Azharudin 13/13/18 29.55
Ganguly 12/12/14 31.58

*MSD scored more runs than Sehwag and Yuvi in 2007 WC

*MSD becomes 1st Asian and 4th overall captain to score 6000 runs in ODI. He is the 2nd fastest to do so.

*MSD is first ever cricketer to score 8000 plus runs with an average of 50 plus

*MSD has 40 not outs in chases. 38 of them in a win (world record). best finisher for a reason
 
QUOTES :

"I would go to a war with Dhoni by my side." : Gary Kirsten

" I played under many captains but Dhoni is the one who fulfilled my dreams" : Sachin

"MSD is not 2nd Gilly, he is the 1st Dhoni" : Gilly

" Lucky to play under captain like Dhoni": Bravo

"I dont know how Dhoni handles such pressure conditions" : Misbah

"India is lucky to have MSD as captain. I am a big fan of him" : jayasurya

"God gifted me to play under captain like Dhoni" : M. Hussey

" Every Pakistani will be happy to exchange Misbah with Dhoni because such is a craze for him in Pakistan" : Ramiz Raja

"If you come to SL, you will find MSD fans more than any SL player" : Dhoni

"MSD is one of the greatest player ever to have played cricket" : Warne

"MSD is the man who stands alone in game when 100 runs are needed from 30 balls and still opposition changes fields repeatedly" : Siddhu

"Dhoni's faith in me was turning point of my career" : Dhoni

"Dhoni has respect of all other playing nations. I've found him to be a really strong leader" : Glenn McGrath

"Cant understand why they go to 3rd umpire and waste time when Dhoni already started celebrating the wicket" : Warne

"If I can control MSD in nets, I can control anyone" : DJ Bravo

" MSD is the most clever captain ever I have seen" : KP

"Our team is like an army. Have to follow what your leader says, no matter what. If my captain tells me to die, I will" : Ashwin on Dhoni

"We learn a lot about captaincy from Dhoni" : Faf Du Plesis

"MSD is the only leader in team of captains" : Baz

"If 15 runs are needed in the last over, pressure in on bowler not Dhoni" : Ian Bishop

"Once Dhoni retires he should write a book on field placements" : Ganguly

"Let them hate him now but they will understand his importance the day he retires" : Ganguly


"Its strange that so many Indians hate MSD, Pakistan is dying to have someone like him" : S. Malik

FACTS:

* Fastest to 8000 ODI runs:
1. ABD in 182 innings and playing 81% of his games in top 4 batting positions.
2. Ganguly in 200 innings and playing 96% of his games in top 4 batting positions.
3. Tendulkar in 210 innings and playing 91% of his games in top 4 batting positions.
4. Lara in 211 innings and playing 84% of his games in top 4 batting positions.
5. Dhoni in 214 innings and playing 17% of his games in top 4 batting positions.

*MSD average at different positions

No. 3 : 82.76
No. 4 : 68.40
No. 5 : 54.45
No. 6 : 45.78
No. 7 : 47.76

*MSD is the first ever player to hit 50 sixes in test cricket as a captain

*Only wicketkeeper batsman in Test history to have scored 200 runs in a day

*MSD was named captain of Wisdens first ever test dream team in 2009

*103.00 Highest Average in successful chases

*MSD was in Top 10 ICC ODI batsman rankings from 2007 to 2015.

* MSD has 3rd most wins as a captain in ODIs

*MSD has scored 92.2% of his total runs against top 8 teams

* 9 times MSD has hit a six to win an ODI. Noone has done this before

* MSD is the fastest player to reach 1000 runs at #4 position in ODIs. In just 20 innings. 2nd is Virat in 21 innings.

* MSD has the best average for India as a captain in WC. Avg : 58.2

* MSD has world record of fastest stumping in 0.35 seconds.

*MSD never toured any minnow country but still he is fastest Asian captain to win 100 ODIs

*MSD vs others test record against top 8 teams:

Captain W / L / D Win%
Dhoni 26/ 18/15 44%
Azharudin 13/13/18 29.55
Ganguly 12/12/14 31.58

*MSD scored more runs than Sehwag and Yuvi in 2007 WC

*MSD becomes 1st Asian and 4th overall captain to score 6000 runs in ODI. He is the 2nd fastest to do so.

*MSD is first ever cricketer to score 8000 plus runs with an average of 50 plus

*MSD has 40 not outs in chases. 38 of them in a win (world record). best finisher for a reason

Can we all now once and for all put the who is the greatest Captain from sub continent to rest ? Its not Imran, it's the one and only DHONI
 
Yes, Dhoni for sure. I cannot imagine another person filling his shoes. Those shoes will be too big to fill
 
Overall i don't rate Dhoni as among ATG. He came close though. I rate Gilchrist above him because he performed much better in tests.
 
Based on his achievements, he is an ATG.

One of the greatest captains, brilliant ODI player, handy Test batsman, excellent keeper, decent T20 player.
 
Depends on format to format... Dravid and kallis are ATGs in tests but just good in odis. Dhoni is an ATG in odis but just a decent player in tests.
 
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