Is Ravindra Jadeja a more effective spinner than Ravi Ashwin?

[The_Odd_One]

Yasir Shah averages 31.51 )

He averaged 24 before overseas tours.

Let Ashwin play 8 tests overseas and then see how his average takes a hit.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Shah is nothing special but Ashwin is not on a different level as a bowler. Both have bullied teams in home conditions.

Ashwin, in fact, have gotten even better conditions for spin bowling.

Either you accept appreciating Shah's performance in the UAE or start praising Pakistani batsmen for scoring in the UAE. Apparently, those pitches become graveyard for bowling when Younis scores runs but become rank turners when Yasir bowls. Can't work both ways!

Coming back to topic, Jadeja has proved to be a better bowler for India and has taken wickets at very crucial moments. Not interested in other excuses. If Ashwin is unfit then he should not play.

 

[Hasan123]

Ashwin is better

 

[Hitman]

I can't share links from other forums here but it's your prerogative to verify that

Also Zaheer Wasn't a joker by any means

While he wasn't consistent for long enough he did very well in a 3-4 year period where his team ended up becoming number 1 side and winning World Cup so give him respect

I was referring to Agarkar.

 

[Hitman]

He averaged 24 before overseas tours.

Let Ashwin play 8 tests overseas and then see how his average takes a hit.

What Ashwin will do is an assumption, the epic hilarious whopping that Shah has received is a fact.

 

[Slog]

What Ashwin will do is an assumption, the epic hilarious whopping that Shah has received is a fact.

Lol Ashwin has already received his whooping on overseas tours so again you are caught out lying

Ashwin is the pioneer of these thumping in this era as Bhajji was before him

Two tours of Australia and still that pathetic record

Ashwin has played Tests in England, Australia and South Africa over four tours and still has ZERO test wins to show in any of those places lol )

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Right now, Jadeja has improved so much that you have to consider him to be the better bowler.

There is an article on cricinfo which explains how players like him do well on flatties.

They don't rely on flight but instead they rely on subtle pace changes, changes in trajectory (flattish, slightly flighty, etc) and lengths to disrupt the rhythm of batsmen.

Jaddu has been doing that so well that it's awesome to watch.

Will be the world's number one bowler after this test and rightly so.

Ashwin may have an injury but its also time for some introspection. He really needs to improve on super flatties like Rajkot, Chennai and Ranchi where Jaddu has always outperformed him. I expect him to recover from this injury/loss of form/deficiency on super flatties. I have seen him bowl at his very best and I believe that version of Ashwin is an amazing spinner. Let's see how he goes about from here.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Ashwin sometimes succumbs to pressure and looks blant.

2012 series in England was one and then this very series, particularly the 2nd match, when the pressure was on, he looked pretty ordinary.

Jadeja thrives in those situations.

2012 was not due to pressure. It was due to technical faults. There are tons of articles and quotes from Ashwin reg that. After that series, Ashwin flew his coach in while he was playing for some domestic tourney and together they worked on his deficiency and results immediately changed.

In this series, it's not pressure but again lots of issues. In the 2nd match when Mitch Marsh struck 3 boundaries of Ishant and momentum was back with Aus, Ashwin came up with an inspired spell of overspin (Lyon style bowling) to take 5 wickets for 9 runs.

Even in first test, it was Ashwin in 2nd innings who picked up 3 wickets when Aus were on top and would have gotten a 5fer had Smith not been dropped twice.

Jaddu is better in not leaking runs when the team is under the pump but in Asian conditions, Ashwin even in this state, has struck many times when India really needed him to.

 

[Abdullah719]

Keep the discussion relevant to OP - Yasir, Sandakan and XYZ Asian spinner can be discussed elsewhere.

 

[Drreddymd]

2012 was not due to pressure. It was due to technical faults. There are tons of articles and quotes from Ashwin reg that. After that series, Ashwin flew his coach in while he was playing for some domestic tourney and together they worked on his deficiency and results immediately changed.

In this series, it's not pressure but again lots of issues. In the 2nd match when Mitch Marsh struck 3 boundaries of Ishant and momentum was back with Aus, Ashwin came up with an inspired spell of overspin (Lyon style bowling) to take 5 wickets for 9 runs.

Even in first test, it was Ashwin in 2nd innings who picked up 3 wickets when Aus were on top and would have gotten a 5fer had Smith not been dropped twice.

Jaddu is better in not leaking runs when the team is under the pump but in Asian conditions, Ashwin even in this state, has struck many times when India really needed him to.

Sif i have been repeatedly mentioning about ash frailties in flat wickets. U seem to underplay his deficiencies but it is becoming clear day by day that ashwin is not a containing bowler as well as ineffective bowler in flat tracks.

 

[Protea Fan]

Ashwin is really overhyped and jadeja is a better bowler because he can be dangerous irrespective of conditions which he is proving it again and again

Bw where this yasir shah came from,he is dread even to compare with ashwin...thats sums up everything

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Sif i have been repeatedly mentioning about ash frailties in flat wickets. U seem to underplay his deficiencies but it is becoming clear day by day that ashwin is not a containing bowler as well as ineffective bowler in flat tracks.

I said pattas and not Asian flatties with a tinge of life.

You are very unbiased when it comes to looking at flaws of our players and that is one quality I like about you but you are way too trigger happy and jump the gun which is not how teams are built.

If we had dropped Rahul for his inconsistency as you said, imagine what would have happened.
If we had dropped Saha for his batting as you said, what would have happened.
If we had dropped Umesh for averaging 50 in England series (not that you were against Umesh), what would have happened (he averaged 22 in this series).

The thing is that if you want a damn good team, you have to back the talents (real talents) you have. If someone is INCAPABLE, that's a different issue.

For all the flak Ash gets these days, here's how he performed in flat/pace tracks in this season:

Kolkata (pace friendly track) - Outperformed all the other spinners with ease
Rajkot (patta) - Horrible
Vizag (flattie where ball hardly turned even on day 5) - Highest wicket taker of the match (8)
Mohali (flattie) - Our highest wicket taker (Rashid got 1 more wicket but most of them were after we had scored and started smashing him)
Chennai (patta) - Looked damn good in 2nd innings.
Hyderabad (patta) - Wasn't great in 1st innings but in 2nd innings, he looked super threatening. Would have got a 5fer had Kohli given him more chances on the last day (he came into the attack very late and was given few overs)
Ranchi - Hasn't been great but has been getting the drift

As you can see, its not great but not bad either. However on pure pattas, its bad. But what did Ashwin do even on turners in Pune? He has been poor regardless of pitches these days.

Did you see the difference in his spell 1 and spell 2 in 2nd innings of Bangalore? How innocuous he looked in one spell and how unplayable he looked in another? He made a change to his style of bowling. That is ability and that's the kind of players you back.

Yes, he has to improve on pattas but I have watched him bowl at his best in WI and I can tell you this guy is worth investing. If he doesn't click, Jaddu is there anyways.

 

[Ab Fan]

2012 was not due to pressure. It was due to technical faults. There are tons of articles and quotes from Ashwin reg that. After that series, Ashwin flew his coach in while he was playing for some domestic tourney and together they worked on his deficiency and results immediately changed.

In this series, it's not pressure but again lots of issues. In the 2nd match when Mitch Marsh struck 3 boundaries of Ishant and momentum was back with Aus, Ashwin came up with an inspired spell of overspin (Lyon style bowling) to take 5 wickets for 9 runs.

Even in first test, it was Ashwin in 2nd innings who picked up 3 wickets when Aus were on top and would have gotten a 5fer had Smith not been dropped twice.

Jaddu is better in not leaking runs when the team is under the pump but in Asian conditions, Ashwin even in this state, has struck many times when India really needed him to.

He has been a much more improved bowler than what he was in 2012 no doubt. He basically had just a usual off break delivery and a carrom ball which he would use at times. But even that version won his team a series vs Aus, WI and NZ at home being the player of series. In England, he looked pretty miserable.

Since then, he has made a great transformation by adding quite a few weapon in his kitty and the results produced were phenomenal. However in this series, particularly that 1st inning of the 2nd test at Bangalore( a spin conducive wicket), he looked pretty bland and off-colour. Its to be seen how he does overseas but there are times when he take back seat especially when the opposition starts taking on him.

 

[Drreddymd]

I said pattas and not Asian flatties with a tinge of life.

You are very unbiased when it comes to looking at flaws of our players and that is one quality I like about you but you are way too trigger happy and jump the gun which is not how teams are built.

If we had dropped Rahul for his inconsistency as you said, imagine what would have happened.
If we had dropped Saha for his batting as you said, what would have happened.
If we had dropped Umesh for averaging 50 in England series (not that you were against Umesh), what would have happened (he averaged 22 in this series).

The thing is that if you want a damn good team, you have to back the talents (real talents) you have. If someone is INCAPABLE, that's a different issue.

For all the flak Ash gets these days, here's how he performed in flat/pace tracks in this season:

Kolkata (pace friendly track) - Outperformed all the other spinners with ease
Rajkot (patta) - Horrible
Vizag (flattie where ball hardly turned even on day 5) - Highest wicket taker of the match (8)
Mohali (flattie) - Our highest wicket taker (Rashid got 1 more wicket but most of them were after we had scored and started smashing him)
Chennai (patta) - Looked damn good in 2nd innings.
Hyderabad (patta) - Wasn't great in 1st innings but in 2nd innings, he looked super threatening. Would have got a 5fer had Kohli given him more chances on the last day (he came into the attack very late and was given few overs)
Ranchi - Hasn't been great but has been getting the drift

As you can see, its not great but not bad either. However on pure pattas, its bad. But what did Ashwin do even on turners in Pune? He has been poor regardless of pitches these days.

Did you see the difference in his spell 1 and spell 2 in 2nd innings of Bangalore? How innocuous he looked in one spell and how unplayable he looked in another? He made a change to his style of bowling. That is ability and that's the kind of players you back.

Yes, he has to improve on pattas but I have watched him bowl at his best in WI and I can tell you this guy is worth investing. If he doesn't click, Jaddu is there anyways.

I will be the first one to give credit when a player proves me wrong. Thats what i said in rahul thread that he is playing in a different planet compared to others in this series while others are struggling. I never said rahul has problems in his batting. I thought for a play of his caliber he should be consistent and not all or nothing which he proved by his 4 half centuries in 5 digs. It is more to do with his mental side of things

Regarding saha i admit that he has played a magnificent knock in this match but i will wait for some more time to get convinced about his batting capabilities particularly against good pace bowling.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

I will be the first one to give credit when a player proves me wrong. Thats what i said in rahul thread that he is playing in a different planet compared to others in this series while others are struggling. I never said rahul has problems in his batting. I thought for a play of his caliber he should be consistent and not all or nothing which he proved by his 4 half centuries in 5 digs. It is more to do with his mental side of things

Regarding saha i admit that he has played a magnificent knock in this match but i will wait for some more time to get convinced about his batting capabilities particularly against good pace bowling.

Players go up and down. Rahul can go back to his inconsistent ways, Saha may turn out to be a flop, Ash could remain a flatty flop....or maybe they won't.

The thing is about following the right process (don't kill me for using Dhoni's favourite word ) so that you collect the sufficient data to make calls. As long as the premise is right, its ok even if the output isn't.

Players develop and improve. Jaddu was considered a waste of space a few years back but now people (including me) are in disbelief to see improve so much. Ashwin was okay okay too not too long ago but things changed. Let's see if he can cross this hurdle.

 

[cricketjoshila]

He averaged 24 before overseas tours.

Let Ashwin play 8 tests overseas and then see how his average takes a hit.

India played in SA NZ ENG and AUS one after other overseas from Dec 2013 till Jan 2015.

So this excuse doesnt cut.

 

[Mobashir]

Both are average spinners. Jadeja bowls like a parti timer, At least Ashwin is good sometimes.

Sad for cricket to not even have one very good test spinner.

 

[Pollack]

Both are average spinners. Jadeja bowls like a parti timer, At least Ashwin is good sometimes.

Sad for cricket to not even have one very good test spinner.

You clearly aren't watching him bowl in recent times.

 

[Pollack]

Don't know how much of dip in Ashwin's effectiveness is due to sports hernia. He is still no pedestrian though and taking wickets.

 

[Slog]

India played in SA NZ ENG and AUS one after other overseas from Dec 2013 till Jan 2015.

So this excuse doesnt cut.

What excuse

Ashwin has pathetic records in these places and in fact would have been even worse if he wasn't DROPPED from many of the matches

The Indian team management didn't EVEN CONSIDER him good enough to be of use overseas

 

[The_Odd_One]

India played in SA NZ ENG and AUS one after other overseas from Dec 2013 till Jan 2015.

So this excuse doesnt cut.

Averages 54 in Australia after 6 tests and almost 34 in England. Has 203 of his 270 wickets in India.

Averaged almost 31 (same as Yasir) after the Australian tour of 2014-2015. Then played most of his games in India and lowered it to 25.

Try again.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Averages 54 in Australia after 6 tests and almost 34 in England. Has 203 of his 270 wickets in India.

Averaged almost 31 (same as Yasir) after the Australian tour of 2014-2015. Then played most of his games in India and lowered it to 25.

Try again.

What is Yasir Shahs avg in Australia?

Even Yasir Shahs avg in Eng isnt great.

What is his avg in Asia?

 

[Bewal Express]

Both great spinners in Ind conditions, both decent outside SC but i would take Ashwin because of his variety outside SC.

 

[Slog]

What is Yasir Shahs avg in Australia?

Even Yasir Shahs avg in Eng isnt great.

What is his avg in Asia?

Averages for both in aus and eng suck. In eng Ashwin wasn't even considered good enough to start and was dropped to prevent embarassment and worse figures

So in such a case you see who has had more positive impact. And playing key role in winning two matches it's clearly Yasir

 

[Hasan123]

What is Yasir Shahs avg in Australia?

Even Yasir Shahs avg in Eng isnt great.

What is his avg in Asia?

No Pakistan fan cares about his average in England when we won 2 games there LOL.

 

[The_Odd_One]

What is Yasir Shahs avg in Australia?

Even Yasir Shahs avg in Eng isnt great.

What is his avg in Asia?

Ashwin has done better than Yasir in Australia (though an average of 54 after 6 tests is nothing to be proud of)

Yasir has won 2 tests in England so averages are irrelevant.

In Asia, Ashwin averages 22, Yasir averages 24. Just 2 points difference but UAE does not serve rank-turners like India.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Both great spinners in Ind conditions, both decent outside SC but i would take Ashwin because of his variety outside SC.

If I may ask....leaving aside injury, form and everything else....why does Ashwin struggle on flat tracks?

And what do you think will happen when he tours overseas (assuming he is bowling at his best)?

Can he make a mark?

Would love to hear your take.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Ashwin has done better than Yasir in Australia (though an average of 54 after 6 tests is nothing to be proud of)

Yasir has won 2 tests in England so averages are irrelevant.

In Asia, Ashwin averages 22, Yasir averages 24. Just 2 points difference but UAE does not serve rank-turners like India.

Yasir avgs 40 in England.Why?any reason?Despit the so called winning two tests in ENgland why is he avging so how?

Is there any country where Yasir Shah has a better avg than Ashwin?

On pitches where Devendra Bishoo runs through sides well tells you something.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Yasir avgs 40 in England.Why?any reason?Despit the so called winning two tests in ENgland why is he avging so how?

Is there any country where Yasir Shah has a better avg than Ashwin?

On pitches where Devendra Bishoo runs through sides well tells you something.

Yasir did well in the first and 2nd test. Specially, the first test, he played a huge role in winning it. Spinners do not win matches in England unless they are Shane Warne.

In how many same countries have Yasir and Ashwin played? What is the sample size?

 

[Slog]

Yasir avgs 40 in England.Why?any reason?Despit the so called winning two tests in ENgland why is he avging so how?

Is there any country where Yasir Shah has a better avg than Ashwin?

On pitches where Devendra Bishoo runs through sides well tells you something.

Please refer to the thread which shows the performances of overseas spinners in India vs UAE and that will show where is it easier for a spinner to bowl. Spinners in India average 11 less runs a wicket than in UAE

Don't show your ignorance

Yasir shah won his side two matches and won man of the match and a 10fer in lords. That is fact

 

[cricketjoshila]

Please refer to the thread which shows the performances of overseas spinners in India vs UAE and that will show where is it easier for a spinner to bowl. Spinners in India average 11 less runs a wicket than in UAE

Don't show your ignorance

Yasir shah won his side two matches and won man of the match and a 10fer in lords. That is fact

OKeefe won his side a match and Man of match and a 10 fer at Pune.A fact

Panesar and Swann won their side a series in India.

Murali could not.Thats the basis of your argument.

 

[Bewal Express]

If I may ask....leaving aside injury, form and everything else....why does Ashwin struggle on flat tracks?

And what do you think will happen when he tours overseas (assuming he is bowling at his best)?

Can he make a mark?

Would love to hear your take.

Tbh i dont know. The only things i can think of is that the weight of expectations gets to him and as he is not used to being hit in Ind, when he does get hit by the likes Warner and Clarke in Aus his head drops. Ashwins basics are solid- he turns the ball and has variety, which means that he will take wickets in Aus, Eng and Sa but he has to accept that he will not 5 or 6 wickets per match as in Ind but more like 3-4.

 

[Justcrazy]

Ashwin is better Test bowler than Jadeja .

batsmen do not take much chances against Ashwin.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

Question should be: has Ashwin ever been as effective as Jadeja? He's simply been bullying weak lineups his whole career.

 

[Cracket]

Ashwin is going through a bad p Ashwin sthase, Jadeja has improved a lot,Ashwin still ahead ..so far

Agreed. Ashwin is the better technical spinner by far but Jadeja seems to be in form more consistently.

 

[Napa]

I would say Smith's wicket tips the scales in Jaddu's favor.

 

[Arsalan Pro]

Jadeja is better then Ashwin,atleast in this series he has been.
So far in this series:
Ashwin 16 wickets at 27.37
Jadeja 20 wickets at 17.10
A average difference of more then 10.

 

[Bilal7]

Jadeja is underrated? Nah, don't think so. He just fires it in to the batters. If the pitche offers turn he becomes deadly due to his accuracy and speed. But He'll definitely get carted around the park on Australian and African pitches.

He'll always have a good economy rate. Should be India's #1 spinner in South Africa later this year.

If by Shah you mean Yasir Shah, he is bog average.

Yeah the man with a 31 average is better than the guys with ~25 averages.

And if you bring away averages etc, Ashwin has a better average than Yasir in EVERY country they have both played in. Also Jadeja has a better away average than Yasir's with a 6-fer in South Africa.

These two are the no 1 ranked bowlers in the world.

Very silly. Yasir Shah would be averaging under 25 as well if he got to play on rank turners in every other home series. Ashwin has had absolutely zero impact outside his comfort zone, even on the flatter, more traditional Indian tracks, he has failed to be anything more than average.

He's no better than Harbhajjan and Kumble, who were great at home but pretty terrible outside their comfort zone. Only difference between those two and Ashwin, is that the latter gets to play on a lot more rank turners to boost his overall figures.

Yasir Shah won Pakistan two test matches in England, Ashwin didn't win them a bag of chips when he was there. From what we have seen in this series, any spinner can just go and grab a bunch of wickets in India, so it is clear that Shah would do the same. No gurantee that Ashwin would be able to have any great success in the UAE. They have similar records in all the other countries that matter; both excelled in Sri Lanka and failed in Australia.

I'm not saying Shah is a great bowler, just that Ashwin is very average. Jadeja is pretty ordinary outside of India too but at least he can keep the runs tight.

 

[Zak_Fan]

India is very lucky to have World's #1 leg spinner and off-spinner playing for them. #AshJaddu #magic

 

[Bilal7]

Ashwin has done better than Yasir in Australia (though an average of 54 after 6 tests is nothing to be proud of)

Yasir has won 2 tests in England so averages are irrelevant.

In Asia, Ashwin averages 22, Yasir averages 24. Just 2 points difference but UAE does not serve rank-turners like India.

Can't believe people are so caught up with the averages when these two haven't played many test matches at all. Things could be quite different by the end of this year after Shah gets to play the whole year in Asia and Ashwin tours South Africa where he failed miserably in the one test he played.

Besides, isn't 30 what all the 'great' Indian bowlers average?

 

[Bilal7]

No wonder the BCCI ensures that Ashdeja get rank turners every other series. Indians have always been deprived of bowlers that have a sub-25 average and having two that now have those magical numbers has reinvigorated the public's interest in test matches.

Of course, it had to be two spinners, not two pacers because no amount of pitch doctoring will let India enjoy the Aag of a great fast bowler. They really wouldn't be able to handle it either, given how OTT the reaction to Ashwin and Jadeja is.

 

[ExpressPacer]

Pathetic to see the way Aussies are treating Ashwin. Even the young Handscomb and Renshaw have carted him around like they would with another part-timer. Has always been one of the worst spinners outside of the subcontinent but now looks like he's inferior to Jaddu even in India. So much for being the best bowler in the world LOL.

 

[Arsalan Pro]

Jadeja has 9 wickets in this match compared to Ashwin's only 2.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Ashwin's average in last 3 series
England- 30.25
Bangladesh- 28.50
Australia- 28.94

For 3 consecutive test he has failed to average below 28, it's possibly a sign that Ashwin is either fatigued or out of form

Jadeja in comparison
England- 25.84
Bangladesh- 24.66
Australia- 18.23

Overall Ashwin is still better but Jadeja is catching up really fast. It's now time to see whether Jadeja can surpass Ashwin. In recent form, Jadeja is ahead by decent margin