Is Saeed Ajmal an ATG off-spinner?

[ali ray]

While I rate ajmal very highly because of carries weak pakistani team on his shoulders of for four years and his stats is also very excellent:



Competition Test ODI FC LA
Matches 33 110 132 216
Runs scored 428 318 1,588 515
Batting average 11.26 7.22 12.31 7.25
100s/50s 0/1 0/0 0/3 0/0
Top score 50 33 53* 33
Balls bowled 10,727 5,861 30,875 11,366
Wickets 169 182 537 336
Bowling average 27.46 22.24 25.67 24.49
5 wickets in innings 9 2 36 3
10 wickets in match 4 n/a 7 n/a
Best bowling 7/55 5/24 7/19 5/18
Catches/stumpings 11/– 25/– 42/– 51/–
A fantastic odi spinner and no 1 bowler for lot of time..

 

[moghul]

NO absolutely not, even when lebel of ATGs are on sale.

 

[Mamoon]

He is not a bowler to begin with. A javelin thrower who should have competed in the Olympics.

He should never have played for Pakistan in the first place and ruined the careers of spinners in domestic cricket who didn't get a chance because of his throwing.

In spite of throwing the ball, he didn't prove himself to be a better Test spinner than Herath and Swann, and Ashwin is already better than him across all formats.

Yasir has overtaken him in Tests as well.

 

[Stark]

He was a chucker from day one.
Cannot be an ATG without being legit.

 

[Syed1]

Ajmal haters are quick to jump onto this thread and show their ignorance.

Ajmal was called and cleared atleast twice before he was eventually called again and then the results showed his angle was way over the 15 degrees mark. So it is Ajmal's fault that they cleared him before? Should he have voluntarily given up cricket even though they deemed his action to be legal and within the set parameters?

 

[petercat]

Nopes.Nowhere near.Also he was caught cheating by breaking the rules of the game.

 

[Stark]

The desperates will cling onto 'he was cleared.. hence he was great' excuse.

Desperation does not serve the purpose here.

 

[Suleiman]

I still consider him a world class bowler in LOIs in his heyday from 2011-2013. Yeah he had a dodgy action but ICC cleared him, so it's definitely not on him if the official cricketing body allows him to bowl. With that said he was never some legendary bowler in tests. In limited overs he is our best spinner after Saqlain.

Though I still feel for Zulfi baba who missed pretty much 90% of his would be career under Ajmal's reign. If he was born a decade later we'd have a potent spin duo atm.

 

[Hasan123]

No he was a chucker.

 

[The_Odd_One]

He would have been an ATG had he not chucked.

Unfortunately, chucking has taken away all of his accomplishments.

 

[Boom boom legend]

He wasn't a chucker. Your action can only be illegal if it is called upon. Otherwise it is a legitimate action.

All the wickets he taken, and achievements he had were all legitimate as he wasnt deemed illegal at the time.

Just a quick question, do Murali's achievements ever get disregarded because his action was also called upon a number of times?

And he was by far the best spinner of his generation in limited overs. In fact, yes I would say in LO he was an ATG. Batsmen were petrified of him, he kept economy down, was a wicket taker and had immense control.
In tests I wouldn't call him ATG but he was still a very handy player and had a better average than Swann who is rated so highly.

 

[Junaids]

He is not a bowler to begin with. A javelin thrower who should have competed in the Olympics.

He should never have played for Pakistan in the first place and ruined the careers of spinners in domestic cricket who didn't get a chance because of his throwing.

In spite of throwing the ball, he didn't prove himself to be a better Test spinner than Herath and Swann, and Ashwin is already better than him across all formats.

Yasir has overtaken him in Tests as well.

This.

Neither Ajmal nor Murali even count in the field of ATG off-spinners.

Jim Laker reigns supreme because he was clean. Cheats don't even get considered, just as Ben Johnson and Lance Armstrong can't live off their drug-fuelled records.

 

[shaz619]

He is not a bowler to begin with. A javelin thrower who should have competed in the Olympics.

He should never have played for Pakistan in the first place and ruined the careers of spinners in domestic cricket who didn't get a chance because of his throwing.

In spite of throwing the ball, he didn't prove himself to be a better Test spinner than Herath and Swann, and Ashwin is already better than him across all formats.

Yasir has overtaken him in Tests as well.

Obviously you enjoy jumping towards the other side of the fence but I recall over the years how you'd be in awe of Ajmal, he wasn't a javelin thrower then was he! It is also worth mentioning that he had cleared an ICC Test in the past but his action and he always bowled within the 15 deg limit but began to chuck when the workload began to increase and we ran him into the ground.

Anyhow thanks for everything Ajmal, he was responsible for many memorable wins and held our ODI team together but everything works out for the best and when Allah took Ajmal away from us he gave us Yasir, am so grateful our prayers were answered and God Gifted me and Pakistan a beautiful Leg Spinner mashaAllah I love Leg Spinners even Indian ones that are not really that great

 

[Hasan123]

Obviously you enjoy jumping towards the other side of the fence but I recall over the years how you'd be in awe of Ajmal, he wasn't a javelin thrower then was he! It is also worth mentioning that he had cleared an ICC Test in the past but his action and he always bowled within the 15 deg limit but began to chuck when the workload began to increase and we ran him into the ground.

Anyhow thanks for everything Ajmal, he was responsible for many memorable wins and held our ODI team together but everything works out for the best and when Allah took Ajmal away from us he gave us Yasir, am so grateful our prayers were answered and God Gifted me and Pakistan a beautiful Leg Spinner mashaAllah I love Leg Spinners even Indian ones that are not really that great

We don't have a match winning spinner in LO overs though which Ajmal was . Yasir hasn't done well in odis, hope he can come good. I hope we can find a quality LO spinner, ideally it would be a leg break. For me leggies are the way forward in LO cricket.

 

[shaz619]

We don't have a match winning spinner in LO overs though which Ajmal was . Yasir hasn't done well in odis, hope he can come good. I hope we can find a quality LO spinner, ideally it would be a leg break. For me leggies are the way forward in LO cricket.

Definitely, it's a tough art to master with it being a soft science with the psychological being fundamental to the success a leggie is able to achieve as much as the skill because rhythm comes from how you feel internally and mentally; when your comfort is disturbed it can be quiet the challenge to adjust again and get your flow back. However, am more then happy to keep Yasir as a Test Specialist; if we run him into the ground with ODI stints I wouldn't want that to affect his Test prowess be it work load or mental problems.

 

[Boom boom legend]

This.

Neither Ajmal nor Murali even count in the field of ATG off-spinners.

Jim Laker reigns supreme because he was clean. Cheats don't even get considered, just as Ben Johnson and Lance Armstrong can't live off their drug-fuelled records.

There is a huge difference between athletes who have used drugs compared to a slight complication in the arm. If Ajmal was a chucker, how did he manage to take almost 450 career wickets?

Surely he would have been banned before his career started. He has been singled out in my opinion because he is Pakistani. Had he been English or Australian I dont think anybody would disregard his achievements as they do now.

They way some people talk, they would have you believe that he literally throws the ball in a style nothing to do with cricket. If he was such a cheat, why was he not caught in the beginning of his career rather than in his late 30's?

 

[shaz619]

This.

Neither Ajmal nor Murali even count in the field of ATG off-spinners.

Jim Laker reigns supreme because he was clean. Cheats don't even get considered, just as Ben Johnson and Lance Armstrong can't live off their drug-fuelled records.

Well then we should also burn Jack Hobbs record, no batsman with THAT technique deserves the notoriety of an ATG despite being an absolute tailender. You see, as an Englishman you envy mystery bowlers because a) you can't play spin b) You can't produce any. Mystery bowlers are great for the game and it's a travesty that there's a system in place to eliminate them, Ajmal has cleared an ICC Test in the pass and there is little evidence which supports Murali chucking this myth has been busted like 1000 times [MENTION=132270]SL_Fan[/MENTION] but ENG and AUS have that victim mentality after being owned ohh he chucked! boo hoo! man up and learn how to play spin instead of quitting on your stool the moment things get tough

Maybe we should ban the England cricket team! the way they play spin is an insult to our sport! we feel cheated!

 

[Hasan123]

Definitely, it's a tough art to master with it being a soft science with the psychological being fundamental to the success a leggie is able to achieve as much as the skill because rhythm comes from how you feel internally and mentally; when your comfort is disturbed it can be quiet the challenge to adjust again and get your flow back. However, am more then happy to keep Yasir as a Test Specialist; if we run him into the ground with ODI stints I wouldn't want that to affect his Test prowess be it work load or mental problems.

He doesn't seem to have the variety for odis. He doesn't have a googly and because of this he ends up bowling too short and easy to play. Also he doesn't flight the ball. In LO leg breaks need to take chances to get wickets.

I hope we can find one. If we can't find a leg break Asghar and Gohar are decent options

 

[Slog]

The desperates will cling onto 'he was cleared.. hence he was great' excuse.

Desperation does not serve the purpose here.

How is that desperation? Or do you not acknowledge laws?

He was cleared and then his action deteriorated

 

[Snatch]

He wasn't a chucker. Your action can only be illegal if it is called upon. Otherwise it is a legitimate action.

All the wickets he taken, and achievements he had were all legitimate as he wasnt deemed illegal at the time.

Nobody's blaming Ajmal for not calling his own bowling illegal in those periods of time he wasn't getting called out, but you're deluding yourself if you think his chucking didn't give him an enormous advantage, especially his doosra.

That why people quite rightly exclude him from their ATG list.

 

[shaz619]

He doesn't seem to have the variety for odis. He doesn't have a googly and because of this he ends up bowling too short and easy to play. Also he doesn't flight the ball. In LO leg breaks need to take chances to get wickets.

I hope we can find one. If we can't find a leg break Asghar and Gohar are decent options

Variety can be learned/his-are-sufficient, he does have a googly and he can flight; his biggest problem is bowling in a high pressure/intense environment where he needs to adapt in situations the moment he finds himself in a pit and holding back when it comes to his skillset, both can be solved with more experience and support but he's someone who overly relies on patience, the game has evolved now and batsman are going to attempt to smash you from ball one so tactics need to change. He's an old school leggie, 10 years ago he'd have been a lot more successful. I don't really want to push it with him, think we have adequate resources in the spin department for ODI's which need to be utilized and the names you mention are a start

 

[Snatch]

I still consider him a world class bowler in LOIs in his heyday from 2011-2013. Yeah he had a dodgy action but ICC cleared him, so it's definitely not on him if the official cricketing body allows him to bowl.

Once again, you're missing the fact it gave him an unfair advantage whether the authorities missed calling him out on it or not.

 

[Hasan123]

Variety can be learned/his-are-sufficient, he does have a googly and he can flight; his biggest problem is bowling in a high pressure/intense environment where he needs to adapt in situations the moment he finds himself in a pit and holding back when it comes to his skillset, both can be solved with more experience and support but he's someone who overly relies on patience, the game has evolved now and batsman are going to attempt to smash you from ball one so tactics need to change. He's an old school leggie, 10 years ago he'd have been a lot more successful. I don't really want to push it with him, think we have adequate resources in the spin department for ODI's which need to be utilized and the names you mention are a start

He's 30 now so it's not an easy thing to learn at that age. Yes he would have been lethal 10 years ago. If he could adapt to modern day LO cricket he can be deadly as currently we are in the worst era of batters playing spin.

 

[Ab Fan]

No.

Ashwin, Herath and Swann all have surpassed him.

Yasir will also overtake him when he ends up playing decent sample of games(50 tests/200 wkts)..

 

[shaz619]

He's 30 now so it's not an easy thing to learn at that age. Yes he would have been lethal 10 years ago. If he could adapt to modern day LO cricket he can be deadly as currently we are in the worst era of batters playing spin.

Yes it can be with practice and various tweaks; he wouldn't be attempting to learn a doosra or something. He has the skills but what I doubt is his ability to adapt so am more then happy having him run through Test sides, we're already overloading how much he bowls so it could be a blessing with him not playing ODI's. I want to see Asghar in our ODI team and possibly a partner for Yasir soon.

 

[Major]

he cheated, he cant be considered a great.

same for murali

Greame Swann could be considered an all time great and Ashwin

 

[Hamza78]

Saqlain by miles

 

[TalhaSyed]

Obviously you enjoy jumping towards the other side of the fence but I recall over the years how you'd be in awe of Ajmal, he wasn't a javelin thrower then was he! It is also worth mentioning that he had cleared an ICC Test in the past but his action and he always bowled within the 15 deg limit but began to chuck when the workload began to increase and we ran him into the ground.

Anyhow thanks for everything Ajmal, he was responsible for many memorable wins and held our ODI team together but everything works out for the best and when Allah took Ajmal away from us he gave us Yasir, am so grateful our prayers were answered and God Gifted me and Pakistan a beautiful Leg Spinner mashaAllah I love Leg Spinners even Indian ones that are not really that great

Shazzy bear taking no prisoners here

Agree with you man.

Ajmal was cleared a couple of the times before being banned so the bottom line is that during that period he was a genuine bowler & a pretty brilliant one at that.

 

[Snatch]

to be honest, I thought it was obvious Ajmal was a chucker the first time I saw him bowl & was surprised just how long it took for them to ban him.

Pakistan won a lot of ODIs on the back of what should have been deemed to be illegal bowling.

In Baseball you chuck, in cricket you bowl.

 

[shaz619]

Shazzy bear taking no prisoners here

Agree with you man.

Ajmal was cleared a couple of the times before being banned so the bottom line is that during that period he was a genuine bowler & a pretty brilliant one at that.

This is why I don't see how he can be labelled a cheat when he passed the Test of the sports governing body it was only towards the tail end of his career that he failed so why should he be deemed a cheat when he has bowled legally for 90% of his career unlike Harbajhan Singh or the serial cheat Ashwin who has control over his action but chucks every now and then intentionally

 

[Hasan123]

Yes it can be with practice and various tweaks; he wouldn't be attempting to learn a doosra or something. He has the skills but what I doubt is his ability to adapt so am more then happy having him run through Test sides, we're already overloading how much he bowls so it could be a blessing with him not playing ODI's. I want to see Asghar in our ODI team and possibly a partner for Yasir soon.

Playing in odis wouldn't over burden him that much as long as he is not over bowled in tests which is likely to the case whilst we have a 4 man attack in tests.

Yes Asghar has a good bowling brain, that's why he is a good fit for our LO team.

 

[Sachin136]

Some of the posts on here are getting ridiculous.

 

[Snatch]

This is why I don't see how he can be labelled a cheat when he passed the Test of the sports governing body it was only towards the tail end of his career that he failed so why should he be deemed a cheat when he has bowled legally for 90% of his career unlike Harbajhan Singh or the serial cheat Ashwin who has control over his action but chucks every now and then intentionally

I think 'cheat' is the wrong word to use for Ajmal, since as a few have mentioned it's not his fault the authorities allowed him to chuck for as long as they did, which of course gave him a huge artificial advantage.

But the fact remains he was a chucker & hence should never be considered as one of the ATGs

 

[shaz619]

I think 'cheat' is the wrong word to use for Ajmal, since as a few have mentioned it's not his fault the authorities allowed him to chuck for as long as they did, which of course gave him a huge artificial advantage.

But the fact remains he was a chucker & hence should never be considered as one of the ATGs

Which is precisely why he shouldn't be labelled a cheat because he was cleared by the sports governing body and remains an all time great. Am pretty sure that if he were that big a cheat ICC would have disregarded his record by now. Ajmal is a GOAT and he was cleared by the ICC and remains a legend offie, the ICC are in a position most informed to decide whether or not he was a cheat and for 90% of his career his action was legal

 

[Bilal7]

Definitely an ATG ODI bowler. He was better than Warne and Murali in the shorter formats and I've never seen a bowler control the 50 overs format the way Ajmal has.

As for tests, he's not an ATG but he's been the best spinner in this format too, since the retirement of Murali and Warne. He won Pakistan a high-profile series against England, at their greatest peak in decades; has a 10-fer in South Africa against their greatest test team ever; and also had a pretty good series in England, back in 2010 when the conditions were pace-friendly.

He was a better test spinner than Swann, and Herath were and Shah and Ashwin are now. In ODIs, he's second only to Saqlain Mushtaq. A great in tests and an ATG in ODIs.

 

[Snatch]

Definitely an ATG ODI bowler. He was better than Warne and Murali in the shorter formats and I've never seen a bowler control the 50 overs format the way Ajmal has.

It's irrelevant. He was chucking, which gave him an artificial advantage.

As I said above, I don't call him a cheat or blame him for not getting pulled up earlier, but let's not pretend there's isn't an enormous advantage for a spinner when they bowl illegally.

For that reason he's out of the discussion for me.

 

[Bilal7]

It's irrelevant. He was chucking, which gave him an artificial advantage.

As I said above, I don't call him a cheat or blame him for not getting pulled up earlier, but let's not pretend there's isn't an enormous advantage for a spinner when they bowl illegally.

For that reason he's out of the discussion for me.

Well, I and many others don't believe he was chucking after being cleared by the ICC back in 2009, so he's definitely going to feature very highly on any greatest spinner discussion for me.

 

[Snatch]

Well, I and many others don't believe he was chucking after being cleared by the ICC back in 2009, so he's definitely going to feature very highly on any greatest spinner discussion for me.

That's fine, that doesn't preclude the other 99% of the cricketing world knowing he did chuck & knowing he gained a very big advantage from doing so.

If he remodeled his action & bowled like proper bowlers, he would have been just a journeyman off-spinner.

 

[Boom boom legend]

In short, he was an ATG in LO and good in tests. Those disputing whether he was legitimate or not are wasting their time as he took almost 450 career wickets where he was legal at the time.

Looking back, we probably had an ATG bowling attack in LO with him, Hafeez, Afridi and Gul. A leg spinner who took wickets, Ajmal who had everything, Hafeez who was economical and Gul who was the best death bowler in the world. Imagine having a pre ban Amir joining them in the 2011 World Cup had he not messed up.

Stark contract to the powder puff attack we have these days.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

Definitely an ATG ODI bowler. He was better than Warne and Murali in the shorter formats and I've never seen a bowler control the 50 overs format the way Ajmal has.

As for tests, he's not an ATG but he's been the best spinner in this format too, since the retirement of Murali and Warne. He won Pakistan a high-profile series against England, at their greatest peak in decades; has a 10-fer in South Africa against their greatest test team ever; and also had a pretty good series in England, back in 2010 when the conditions were pace-friendly.

He was a better test spinner than Swann, and Herath were and Shah and Ashwin are now. In ODIs, he's second only to Saqlain Mushtaq. A great in tests and an ATG in ODIs.

)

Of course he was better Than Warne.

Because he chucked his way to wickets.

Imagine Warne throwing javelins whenever he wanted a wicket. Do you think he wouldn't be able to outbowl a chucker?

 

[shaz619]

That's fine, that doesn't preclude the other 99% of the cricketing world knowing he did chuck & knowing he gained a very big advantage from doing so.

If he remodeled his action & bowled like proper bowlers, he would have been just a journeyman off-spinner.

Incorrect, 99.98% of the intelligent cricketing world accept he is an ATG bowler who legally dethroned teams for laffs. Ashwin and Harbajhan are cheats however.

 

[Buffet]

He was ATG for sure , but not in 'bowling'.

 

[Snatch]

Incorrect, 99.98% of the intelligent cricketing world accept he is an ATG bowler who legally dethroned teams for laffs. Ashwin and Harbajhan are cheats however.

Lol. Nice one. Funnily enough I called Ajmal for chucking the first time I ever saw him, It was obvious to me.

By the way, I can get incredible spin when I chuck as opposed to bowling & if I was allowed to get away with it I'm sure I could kick some serious butt with my throws that spin. Anyone can gets lots of turn when they throw... bowling is much harder to.

 

[Bilal7]

That's fine, that doesn't preclude the other 99% of the cricketing world knowing he did chuck & knowing he gained a very big advantage from doing so.

If he remodeled his action & bowled like proper bowlers, he would have been just a journeyman off-spinner.

The ICC decides who is bowling legally and who is and who isn't. They tested Ajmal and let him bowl and that is exactly what he did and how well.

Judging by this thread, that 99% seems pretty faulty. Anyways, I have no interest in discussing Ajmal's action. I said what I needed to say about his quality, which befits an ATG spinner, at least in the LO formats.

 

[Bilal7]

In short, he was an ATG in LO and good in tests. Those disputing whether he was legitimate or not are wasting their time as he took almost 450 career wickets where he was legal at the time.

Looking back, we probably had an ATG bowling attack in LO with him, Hafeez, Afridi and Gul. A leg spinner who took wickets, Ajmal who had everything, Hafeez who was economical and Gul who was the best death bowler in the world. Imagine having a pre ban Amir joining them in the 2011 World Cup had he not messed up.

Stark contract to the powder puff attack we have these days.

That was a fantastic attack. In 2013, we had Junaid and Irfan at their best, in addition to Gul, Ajmal, Afridi and Hafeez. Easily the best ODI bowling attack of this decade and the reason we beat India in India and South Africa in South Africa.

 

[Snatch]

. Anyways, I have no interest in discussing Ajmal's action. I said what I needed to say about his quality, which befits an ATG spinner, at least in the LO formats.

Obviously you don't have any interest, because you want to delude yourself that he wasn't chucking, because the authorities made a mistake in allowing it as long as they did, before finally cracking down on it once and for all.

Just accept, if you're going to be absurd enough to compare a chucker like Ajmal with a genuine ATG like Warne, that people are going to remind you that Ajmal doesn't qualify since he didn't bowl legally.

 

[Pete Rose]

No.

 

[Bilal7]

Obviously you don't have any interest, because you want to delude yourself that he wasn't chucking, because the authorities made a mistake in allowing it as long as they did, before finally cracking down on it once and for all.

Just accept, if you're going to be absurd enough to compare a chucker like Ajmal with a genuine ATG like Warne, that people are going to remind you that Ajmal doesn't qualify since he didn't bowl legally.

I could care less about what you think. To you, your opinion and to me, mine. If you're going to be silly and wipe away Ajmal's 400-odd wickets, the series wins he's participated in and the records he holds, you're obviously the one deluded here and I don't need to waste my time listening to your "reminders".

 

[Snatch]

I could care less about what you think.

Assume you meant 'couldn't' care less.

To you, your opinion and to me, mine. If you're going to be silly and wipe away Ajmal's 400-odd wickets, the series wins he's participated in and the records he holds, you're obviously the one deluded here and I don't need to waste my time listening to your "reminders".

If you want to take someone who the vast majority of the cricketing world knows chucked the ball illegally & hence giving him a tremendous advantage, & who eventually & rightfully got banned from bowling after having been done so temporarily a couple of times prior .. you blindly do so.

But don't then have the audacity to call me the deluded one.

 

[street cricketer]

He was a chucker, simple as. The only sad thing is that it delayed the entry of someone like Yasir in the test team.

There's a reason why he doesn't feature in the list of many past ATG spinners lists.

 

[Chrish]

After getting banned ?

Pakistan seems to have a different perception of dealing with ex-convicts compare to rest (no offense intended)

 

[moghul]

No Chucker can be an ATG, including the one from Sri Lanka.

 

[Nil Dhumrojal]

Proposing a chucker as an ATG is a disgrace itself. His stats are all turns 0 being a chucker.

 

[ali ray]

He is ATG for sure in Odis and T20s. Only saqlain is better than him in this format. Hashim Amla and virat kohli also called him the toughest bowler they have faced in limited overs.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Please do not bundle Murali with Ajmal.

Murali's scenario was completely different and it has been discussed to death on this forum.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

Murali always had a shadow but was never banned.

A case could be made for Murali anyways because of his natural illusion.

Ajmal said "he had an accident" and so that's why "he bowled that way".

The accident "miraculously disappeared" after he was caught by ICC, and he managed remedial work, albeit at the cost of no longer remaining effective.

This is why (because of Murali's controversy, Ajmal's chucking) I consider Warne as one of the best spinners of all time.

ATG spinner, Warne.

 

[Chrish]

Murali always had a shadow but was never banned.

A case could be made for Murali anyways because of his natural illusion.

Ajmal said "he had an accident" and so that's why "he bowled that way".

The accident "miraculously disappeared" after he was caught by ICC, and he managed remedial work, albeit at the cost of no longer remaining effective.

This is why (because of Murali's controversy, Ajmal's chucking) I consider Warne as one of the best spinners of all time.

ATG spinner, Warne.

Warne also did things he wasn't supposed to

 

[Zak_Fan]

Not even close. Even if you forget his action, let's not forget that he got massacred in Australia and NZ. Averaged mid 30s in a couple of other countries too.

Ashwin and Yasir are well on their way to eclipse him, and they are doing it with a legal action.

 

[Suleiman]

Once again, you're missing the fact it gave him an unfair advantage whether the authorities missed calling him out on it or not.

Sure, but I never said he was better than any other bowler in the world. Given the performances he put in for the team, he got results for us in LOIs which was mainly keeping a tight lid on runs and taking wickets in the shorter formats, basically working as a glue for our bowling attack, holding it together. Once he went the bowling attack fell apart. In that case he definitely got us some degree of success which is what you need to be world class. This is just looking at him as a player himself, without comparing anyone to him.

Obviously when you compare him with any other bowler, then there will definitely be a asterisk next to his name for the advantage he got, much like Murali.

But while he was at his, let's say "chucking peak", the same Pak fans who call him chuckmal or whatever rallied behind him 3-4 years back to hold down the fort with the ball.

 

[ali ray]

Zak Fan but ashwin and yasir will only dream of become fearsome like him in LOis

 

[ali ray]

Zak Fan " Hashim Amla and Virat kohli are not joke batsman" who termed him most difficult bowler in LOis

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Ajmal was a supreme ODI bowler in his pomp. Could control the game like crazy.

Was a very good test bowler too.

However it doesn't mean much cos he was a chucker and was always accused of one even during his pomp.

His problem was not deterioration in his action in which case he would have been back by now in full force. Fact was, he bended the rules which made him so effective.

Some of the responses in this thread are baffling.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

Warne also did things he wasn't supposed to

Of course.

But none of them involved, chucking the ball , which is the most important thing for judging a bowler.

 

[Zak_Fan]

Zak Fan " Hashim Amla and Virat kohli are not joke batsman" who termed him most difficult bowler in LOis

Amla called him the toughest T20 bowler. As for Kohli, yes it is not surprising that he named Ajmal because he really was hard to face (specially with chucking and all).

Btw, these things don't make good bowlers join ATG league. Ponting said the same thing about Harbhajan, and Sanga/Smith said the same about Zaheer Khan.

 

[Ankit007]

Ajmal is ATG? Nope.. no tom dick or harry can be given ATG tag....

 

[Navdeep Srivastava]

Ajmal is ATG? Nope.. no tom dick or harry can be given ATG tag....

For me he is a odi atg, he is still only spinner who can bowl with new ball old ball, start of the inning, end of inning, during powerplay and was always effective.

 

[Hawkeye]

Correct.

He's an ATG watta bowler aka chucker.

If you ignore the chucks then yes he was excellent in ODIs and ATG LEVEL. But you can't ignore why the effectiveness was.

 

[Sidilicious]

The ICC decides who is bowling legally and who is and who isn't. They tested Ajmal and let him bowl and that is exactly what he did and how well.

Judging by this thread, that 99% seems pretty faulty. Anyways, I have no interest in discussing Ajmal's action. I said what I needed to say about his quality, which befits an ATG spinner, at least in the LO formats.

Using your premise, that Ajmal was not chucking until he was banned. Taking your premise ahead, surely there would have been a point at when Ajmal's action changed from not chucking to chucking (when his angle went from less than 15 degree to more than 15 degrees). In that case, we should discount those stats when he started to chuck.

ICC did not check every bowler's action. So its not like he started chucking suddenly. ICC checked only those bowlers who were suspected checkers. So he was clearly chucking when his action was questioned.

The most glaring proof about his chucking is the fact that with a remodelled action, he was nowhere near as effective. So clearly, chucking played a major part in his effectiveness. If he was really good for even 1 year after his action was remodelled, we could argue that chucking was not main reason for his effectiveness. But he was never as good.

 

[Chrish]

Of course.

But none of them involved, chucking the ball , which is the most important thing for judging a bowler.

Using PED is fine?

 

[Hitman]

Murali always had a shadow but was never banned.

A case could be made for Murali anyways because of his natural illusion.

Ajmal said "he had an accident" and so that's why "he bowled that way".

The accident "miraculously disappeared" after he was caught by ICC, and he managed remedial work, albeit at the cost of no longer remaining effective.

This is why (because of Murali's controversy, Ajmal's chucking) I consider Warne as one of the best spinners of all time.

ATG spinner, Warne.

I have always thought the same. He disability disappeared after he was caught by the ICC and he remodeled his bowling action

 

[GLORY OF '92]

Ajmal and Murali were cheats. Not ATGs.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

Using PED is fine?

Shane Warne was not caught with PED's for that matter.

He was banned for taking a diuretic , which can be used to mask the effect of steroids like PED's.

He said, he was using it get rid of the double chin.

Now unless, you have proof he was taking PED's , you don't have iota of proof he was taking them.

Needless to say, CA banned him from taking part in the World Cup, even though it was not established he was taking PED's because of a masking agent which was prohibited.

If that is equivalent to a bowler , chucking pies, to get 150 odd wickets in ODI's albeit, then Warne should have been banned forever.

However he took 293 wickets at bowling average of 25.73 and had he taken part in World Cup, who knows he might have got tons more to get 300 ODI wickets.

To equate such a bowler to Saeed Ajmal, just because he was caught using a masking agent is just absurd.

 

[Mamoon]

Obviously you enjoy jumping towards the other side of the fence but I recall over the years how you'd be in awe of Ajmal, he wasn't a javelin thrower then was he! It is also worth mentioning that he had cleared an ICC Test in the past but his action and he always bowled within the 15 deg limit but began to chuck when the workload began to increase and we ran him into the ground.

Anyhow thanks for everything Ajmal, he was responsible for many memorable wins and held our ODI team together but everything works out for the best and when Allah took Ajmal away from us he gave us Yasir, am so grateful our prayers were answered and God Gifted me and Pakistan a beautiful Leg Spinner mashaAllah I love Leg Spinners even Indian ones that are not really that great

I admire Ajmal for his chucking skills. Not every chucker can be as good as he was, so he was obviously bloody good.

In his pomp, he was one of the best in ODIs I have ever seen, but he cannot be remembered as an ATG because his action was illegal.

You should also recall that I have always considered his action illegal and people here used to argue with me that I should accept the legitimacy of his action because the ICC has cleared him.

ICC did clear him earlier on, but he did not get banned the day ICC revised the rules, neither did he start chucking the day he got suspended.

There was obviously a period in which he illegally chucked but was not yet reported. Hence, there are doubts over the legitimacy of his wickets.

He is a cheater and his career should not be celebrated. The quicker he's forgotten the better.

 

[Mamoon]

[MENTION=141874]Boom boom legend[/MENTION]

A lot of people rate Warne higher than Muralitharan simply because of the controversial bowling action of the latter, so that answers your query.

Secondly, it is not about him being a Pakistani. The problem is that we are extremely inept in dealing with chuckers in domestic cricket. More than half of the spinners in domestic cricket are blatant chuckers but the authorities let them get away with it.

Professional cricket boards like ECB, CA etc. do not allow chuckers to come through their system. The likes of Ajmal would have either been booted out in club cricket in England or Australia, or would have had his action fixed before playing F/C Cricket and international cricket.

I hope after the Ajmal and Hafeez episode, PCB will be more serious in dealing with chuckers in domestic cricket, before the next Ajmal or Hafeez emerges.

 

[Mamoon]

It is also important to note that Ajmal is a blatant liar. For years, he held onto the excuse that he cannot bowl with a straight arm because he has a deformed elbow because of a childhood accident. However, after he got banned and went through remedial work with Saqlain, he started bowling with a straight arm.

Hence, there are two possibilities:

Ajmal is a liar

OR

Saqlain is a wizard who fixed his deformed elbow with a Harry Potter spell. Harry Potter is fictional, hence it is pretty obvious that Ajmal is a liar.

 

[shaz619]

I admire Ajmal for his chucking skills. Not every chucker can be as good as he was, so he was obviously bloody good.

In his pomp, he was one of the best in ODIs I have ever seen, but he cannot be remembered as an ATG because his action was illegal.

You should also recall that I have always considered his action illegal and people here used to argue with me that I should accept the legitimacy of his action because the ICC has cleared him.

ICC did clear him earlier on, but he did not get banned the day ICC revised the rules, neither did he start chucking the day he got suspended.

There was obviously a period in which he illegally chucked but was not yet reported. Hence, there are doubts over the legitimacy of his wickets.

He is a cheater and his career should not be celebrated. The quicker he's forgotten the better.

You didn't insult him with all his chucker nonsense over the years, you were in admiration of his bowling actually but I have no idea why you've decided to twist the blade in a beloved Pakistani's back is it just for ratings on PP? if so then I understand that

The ICC cleared Ajmal so it is beyond me how he can be labelled a cheat when he bowled legally for 90% of his career, if he was that big a chucker he'd have been banned in 2009.

If Ajmal did chuck he'd have been called but he wasn't, I'd say the scenario you are describing mostly fits Harbajhan and Ashwin; they are unfortunately not called due to the BCCI stroke in ICC over the years they are chuckers who are notorious.

The system did not convict Ajmal for 90% of his career so how can we reach a guilty verdict, he's an ATG offie and that should be celebrated apart from Jealous fans across the border who only like to hate on our glorious talent mashaAllah.

 

[shaz619]

It is also important to note that Ajmal is a blatant liar. For years, he held onto the excuse that he cannot bowl with a straight arm because he has a deformed elbow because of a childhood accident. However, after he got banned and went through remedial work with Saqlain, he started bowling with a straight arm.

Hence, there are two possibilities:

Ajmal is a liar

OR

Saqlain is a wizard who fixed his deformed elbow with a Harry Potter spell. Harry Potter is fictional, hence it is pretty obvious that Ajmal is a liar.

Okay he lied but Pakistan won many games! are you sad about that? besides even when he did lie, his action was still legal and within the 15 degree limit unlike Harbajhan and Ashwin

 

[Mamoon]

You didn't insult him with all his chucker nonsense over the years, you were in admiration of his bowling actually but I have no idea why you've decided to twist the blade in a beloved Pakistani's back is it just for ratings on PP? if so then I understand that

The ICC cleared Ajmal so it is beyond me how he can be labelled a cheat when he bowled legally for 90% of his career, if he was that big a chucker he'd have been banned in 2009.

If Ajmal did chuck he'd have been called but he wasn't, I'd say the scenario you are describing mostly fits Harbajhan and Ashwin; they are unfortunately not called due to the BCCI stroke in ICC over the years they are chuckers who are notorious.

The system did not convict Ajmal for 90% of his career so how can we reach a guilty verdict, he's an ATG offie and that should be celebrated apart from Jealous fans across the border who only like to hate on our glorious talent mashaAllah.

Ask Bilal7. We used to have long debates over his bowling action before he got suspended. I'm sure few other posters will be able to testify as well.

Unfortunately a lot of those posts ended up getting trashed because you were not allowed to call Ajmal a chucker before he got banned.

Ashwin has the cleanest possible action for an off-spinner. The only time he chucked was during the 2014 Asia Cup when he was whining throughout the tournament about how chuckers like Ajmal and Senanayake are getting away with it. Funnily, he bowled rubbish with an illegal action and soon resorted back to his normal action which is perfectly clean.

Harbhajan chucks his doosra, and Ojha is a chucker as well. However, neither of them get picked for India anymore.

BCCI is smart enough to not allow chuckers bowl in international cricket and eventually one slips through, he will be suspended. This clampdown on chucking is not a BCCI conspiracy.

We should accept our own mistakes and shortcomings, and acknowledge that we should have dealt with the likes of Ajmal before the intervention of the ICC.

 

[Mamoon]

Okay he lied but Pakistan won many games! are you sad about that? besides even when he did lie, his action was still legal and within the 15 degree limit unlike Harbajhan and Ashwin

I am said because he ruined the careers of legal spinners in the country. A good example is Zulfiqar - he was a top bowler in his prime which was wasted because Ajmal was hurling Pakistan to victories, and only became a regular in the team when he was past his prime.

 

[shaz619]

Ask Bilal7. We used to have long debates over his bowling action before he got suspended. I'm sure few other posters will be able to testify as well.

Unfortunately a lot of those posts ended up getting trashed because you were not allowed to call Ajmal a chucker before he got banned.

Ashwin has the cleanest possible action for an off-spinner. The only time he chucked was during the 2014 Asia Cup when he was whining throughout the tournament about how chuckers like Ajmal and Senanayake are getting away with it. Funnily, he bowled rubbish with an illegal action and soon resorted back to his normal action which is perfectly clean.

Harbhajan chucks his doosra, and Ojha is a chucker as well. However, neither of them get picked for India anymore.

BCCI is smart enough to not allow chuckers bowl in international cricket and eventually one slips through, he will be suspended. This clampdown on chucking is not a BCCI conspiracy.

We should accept our own mistakes and shortcomings, and acknowledge that we should have dealt with the likes of Ajmal before the intervention of the ICC.

His action is clean but he chucks intentionally when he feels like it making him a serial cheat!

We were not allowed to call him a chucker then because his action was completely legal and he had been cleared by the ICC, you're within your right to call him a chucker now but to belittle his entire career is unfair because the system cleared him earlier and he bowled within the limit.

I personally think that chuckers are good for the game, we need more mystery bowlers especially in a batting dominant era when the game just keeps getting easier for them. The limit should increase from 15 deg to 20 deg, the biggest negative though would be that we'd see more mystery spinners then leg spinners and I love leg spinners a lot more.