Is the concept of Muslim Ummah [nation] dead?

[MenInG]

Glee for some and shame for others but we have seen that whole concept being put to the test in recent times.

It appears that commercial interests and political considerations matter more than the idealistic concept of Muslim Ummah.

So is this concept outdated? What does that mean for the Muslim world in general?

 

[Patriot]

The Muslim Ummah has always been and is only a concept at an individual level between Muslim brothers and sisters. There is no concept or there has never been a concept of the Muslim Ummah at a political/nation level, because the true Islamic state under the Prophet SAW and the Khalifa e Rashidun was a single state and not multiple states. Of course we don’t have that anymore with multiple nations that are Muslim.

These nations have to be pragmatic and play the political game for their benefit. There cannot be any emotions shown at this stage.

So yes, show your love for you fellow Indian, Somali, Arab Muslim and help them when they need your help (we should do the same for non-Muslims as humans), but at a state level, be pragmatic and what benefits your citizens.

 

[sweep_shot]

Ummah is supposed to be revived again if you believe in Islamic end times prophecies.

It is quite possible that Muslim world would remain fractured until the second coming of prophet Jesus (PBUH).

 

[Lonewarrior]

its all connected to the end time prophecies. arabs destruction till the second coming of prophet Jesus (PBUH).

 

[miandadrules]

It depends on how you perceive it.

As an atheist I’ve always felt that Islam is/was used to have centralised control over the masses. It started with the Quraysh tribe and subsequent Powers have followed suit.

If you consider the Ummah to be a political brotherhood then I don’t that’s ever been the case.

Socially I think it exists to a greater extent. Most Muslims have affinity for one another, provided they are of the same sect.

This is a hierarchical system. The needs of the elites/“guardians” of the faith, take precedence over all. The needs of the bottom are irrelevant.

To your question. Yes it still exists, in that no Arab nation will come to Pakistan’s aid. Yet, when the master whistles the Pakistani establishment will come running, with the public opening their arms to embrace their “brothers”.

 

[MenInG]

Ummah will not revive until good men speak their minds and say it like it is.

 

[sweep_shot]

Ummah will not revive until good men speak their minds and say it like it is.

Ummah got fractured when Ottoman Empire was dissolved. Incidentally, it was also the time when Zionism started to become mainstream.

Most of present rulers of Muslim-majority countries are pretty much puppets. Ummah can't thrive when there are so many weak leaders.

Good news is, these things will be sorted out (as per Islamic end times prophecies) and Ummah will be strong/united again.

 

[Savak]

When was it ever alive. Had it existed the Muslim world wouldn't be bullied like it is being right now

 

[uberkoen]

Ummah is supposed to be revived again if you believe in Islamic end times prophecies.

It is quite possible that Muslim world would remain fractured until the second coming of prophet Jesus (PBUH).

There is no second coming of Jesus mentioned in the Qur'an. He's not coming back.

Surah 3 Verse 55 "when Allah said, Isa! certainly I will cause you to die and would raise you to myself and will protect you from those people who rejected you"

People have come to the conclusion that Jesus will return and did not die based on the ambiguous language of Surah Al Nisa which does two things 1) denies that the Jews killed Jesus and 2) affirms that God raised him to heaven.

This leads towards speculation with regards to the status.

In fact, the language of the Quran is not eschatological when it comes to Jesus. Surah al nisa refers to his role as a witness on the day of resurrection while surah al zukhruf describes him as knowledge of sign of the hour. Both verses allude to Jesus' place in the apocalyptic hour not in the end times.

None of the events which Jesus is believed to accomplish in the end times such as killing Dajjal, leading people in prayers, breaking crosses, killing swine etc. are mentioned in the Quran.

Having said that. There is not and has never been a Muslim 'Ummah'.

 

[rhony]

Muslim Ummah is selfish based on their needs. And such selfish move will be made by BJP India soon. With the triple talaq bill, Kashmir 370 abrogation and a much rumored uniform civil code in process, BJP has angered the dominant Muslim - the male Muslim population in India. Credit to them that they haven't acted on whatever resentment they have.

No matter which way I look at it, I don't see a need for these Arab countries to line up and award their highest civilian awards to Modi. Yes, they have business interests in India but it's not like they are competing to invest in India now. It is in India's advantage if they invest. Yes, India buys a lot of oil from these countries but they have been for a while. So what changed now? I think this is a mutual understanding to soften Modi's and BJP's anti Muslim image. There will be some favors doled out by India at some point including allowing these countries to strategic investments in India or vice versa. The observer status given to Sushma Swaraj in OIC, the awards, the investments, the multiple trips of Modi to gulf countries, the support to Palestine state by Modi, all point to one thing. India is gunning for the OIC membership. With 200 million Muslims, they have a credible claim for membership. It always gives a sense of belonging for the Muslim community in India if India is part of the largest Islamic group and is proud of it. If Pakistan is against it, then it helps India isolate Pakistan as well. The "Muslim Nukes" that Pak posseses was the strength of Pak in OIC but it has been neutralized by the MOUs these countries have been doling out to Pak for decades. Nukes don't hold significant value in this day and age. Economic might does. I see significant moves by India in this direction and it could happen in the next few years.

 

[sweep_shot]

There is no second coming of Jesus mentioned in the Qur'an. He's not coming back.

Surah 3 Verse 55 "when Allah said, Isa! certainly I will cause you to die and would raise you to myself and will protect you from those people who rejected you"

People have come to the conclusion that Jesus will return and did not die based on the ambiguous language of Surah Al Nisa which does two things 1) denies that the Jews killed Jesus and 2) affirms that God raised him to heaven.

This leads towards speculation with regards to the status.

In fact, the language of the Quran is not eschatological when it comes to Jesus. Surah al nisa refers to his role as a witness on the day of resurrection while surah al zukhruf describes him as knowledge of sign of the hour. Both verses allude to Jesus' place in the apocalyptic hour not in the end times.

None of the events which Jesus is believed to accomplish in the end times such as killing Dajjal, leading people in prayers, breaking crosses, killing swine etc. are mentioned in the Quran.

Having said that. There is not and has never been a Muslim 'Ummah'.

Are you an Ahmadi by any chance? This view is not mainstream orthodox Sunni view.

 

[Icon]

Muslim Ummah in relation to countries then yes.

Muslim Ummah in terms of the muslims all over the world then no, that will never end.

 

[topspin]

Ummah got fractured when Ottoman Empire was dissolved. Incidentally, it was also the time when Zionism started to become mainstream.

Most of present rulers of Muslim-majority countries are pretty much puppets. Ummah can't thrive when there are so many weak leaders.

Good news is, these things will be sorted out (as per Islamic end times prophecies) and Ummah will be strong/united again.

Very well said.

The sad truth is the Wahabi influence on the Ummah has created this divide and made us backwards.

 

[topspin]

There is no second coming of Jesus mentioned in the Qur'an. He's not coming back.

Surah 3 Verse 55 "when Allah said, Isa! certainly I will cause you to die and would raise you to myself and will protect you from those people who rejected you"

People have come to the conclusion that Jesus will return and did not die based on the ambiguous language of Surah Al Nisa which does two things 1) denies that the Jews killed Jesus and 2) affirms that God raised him to heaven.

This leads towards speculation with regards to the status.

In fact, the language of the Quran is not eschatological when it comes to Jesus. Surah al nisa refers to his role as a witness on the day of resurrection while surah al zukhruf describes him as knowledge of sign of the hour. Both verses allude to Jesus' place in the apocalyptic hour not in the end times.

None of the events which Jesus is believed to accomplish in the end times such as killing Dajjal, leading people in prayers, breaking crosses, killing swine etc. are mentioned in the Quran.

Having said that. There is not and has never been a Muslim 'Ummah'.

If I'm not mistaken Sahih Hadith reports the arrival of Isa (AS) and Imam Mahdi (AS).

 

[uberkoen]

Are you an Ahmadi by any chance? This view is not mainstream orthodox Sunni view.

No, I'm not. The view is indeed not mainstream orthodox sunni view. I was only commenting based on the Qur'an and what it says. Most of the scholars have formed an opinion based on hadith and also borrowing from Christianity with the whole dajjal and anti-christ thing.

I would love to elaborate a bit on how the whole idea of the second coming and dajjal came into Islam but that is a rather long write up that I highly doubt anyone would be interested in

 

[uberkoen]

If I'm not mistaken Sahih Hadith reports the arrival of Isa (AS) and Imam Mahdi (AS).

You are correct.

I will not however go into detail as I do not want to hurt religious sentiments. As mentioned in my previous post, a lot of the ideas that mainstream sunni's follow including that of dajjal and the second coming of christ are borrowed from Christianity and were not originally Islamic concepts.

 

[Icon]

You are correct.

I will not however go into detail as I do not want to hurt religious sentiments. As mentioned in my previous post, a lot of the ideas that mainstream sunni's follow including that of dajjal and the second coming of christ are borrowed from Christianity and were not originally Islamic concepts.

Sahih hadith is authentic. It's not borrowed ideas.
If you care to comment on this, please do.

 

[sweep_shot]

No, I'm not. The view is indeed not mainstream orthodox sunni view. I was only commenting based on the Qur'an and what it says. Most of the scholars have formed an opinion based on hadith and also borrowing from Christianity with the whole dajjal and anti-christ thing.

I would love to elaborate a bit on how the whole idea of the second coming and dajjal came into Islam but that is a rather long write up that I highly doubt anyone would be interested in

Why would Muslim scholars borrow things from Christianity? That doesn't make sense.

There are some similarities between Islam and Christianity because we both have same Abrahamic root.
Bible, after all, was a holy book from God that got corrupted (as per Islamic belief).

 

[Syed1]

No such thing as Ummah anymore. We need to find our friends and allies and make an "ummah" out of them. China and Turkey are already our closest allies. Malaysia isn't so far off either. We can rope in Iran as well but they are always busy playing double games and backstabbing (Kulbhushan came from Iran).


If we didn't have to purchase oil from these arabs I would have been in favour of completely scaling down ties with them, unfortunately we do not have any choice at present. Cannot wait for the near future where electric cars will be the norm and these arabs will go down in importance massively. They aren't even loyal to their own kind you expect them to be loyal to us Al-Bakistani slaves?

 

[Sir-fraz]

too many people mentioning the hadith..

if you guys were real followers of islam, you would know the book is complete. why bother reading and believing in the hadith when it was written 200 years after Mohammeds death? they are made up stories at this point, and they hold ZERO value among academics.

Real question is which one of you actually follows islam to the T? no one
everyone here has a different interpretation of their religion.

ummah doesnt need to revive just like how we dont need priests/imams.

times have moved on.

organized religions are a cult. no question.

be a good human, do good things. life is simple but we humans make it complicated.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I think there are two different levels of Ummah. There is the individual level, where most Muslims still identify strongly as Muslims regardless of the country they live in. Then there is the political level at home where the same Muslims would have limited control, and then there is international level where even nations have only limited clout as they lack power.

If you want evidence of a successful 'Ummah' then no need to look further than the West. Despite being continents apart, America, Australia, Canada and Britain all share a common religion, albeit nominal only, they share the same language and principles.

Of course this is just my own personal view, might be that everyone sitting in a Muslim country wouldn't even give it the time of day as they are living their Islamic lives quite happily in their own version of the Ummah. Who knows? I am a westerner and thus my views are obviously contaminated and coloured by my own experience.

 

[troodon]

too many people mentioning the hadith..

if you guys were real followers of islam, you would know the book is complete. why bother reading and believing in the hadith when it was written 200 years after Mohammeds death? they are made up stories at this point, and they hold ZERO value among academics.

Real question is which one of you actually follows islam to the T? no one
everyone here has a different interpretation of their religion.

ummah doesnt need to revive just like how we dont need priests/imams.

times have moved on.

organized religions are a cult. no question.

be a good human, do good things. life is simple but we humans make it complicated.

How do you interpret the verses in Quran without Hadith? How do you know what exactly is being told?

Also, Quran was also transmitted orally after the death of Prophet Muhammed. There was no official Quran book when Muhammed lived.

Both Quran and Hadith are transmitted orally. Even Hadiths are not made up. Sahih Hadiths are Sahih for a reason.

I like how Muslims use Hadiths when they suit them and reject them when it does not.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

How do you interpret the verses in Quran without Hadith? How do you know what exactly is being told?

Also, Quran was also transmitted orally after the death of Prophet Muhammed. There was no official Quran book when Muhammed lived.

Both Quran and Hadith are transmitted orally. Even Hadiths are not made up. Sahih Hadiths are Sahih for a reason.

I like how Muslims use Hadiths when they suit them and reject them when it does not.

Hindu brothers are no different these days, there are big efforts to create a hindu ummah via ghar wapsi. Of course that drive will also use historical rituals and customs unique to hindu culture to attempt to forge unity.

 

[troodon]

Hindu brothers are no different these days, there are big efforts to create a hindu ummah via ghar wapsi. Of course that drive will also use historical rituals and customs unique to hindu culture to attempt to forge unity.

There is no Hindu Ummah. It is about land (Akhand Bharat) under Sanatan Dharma identity. That will be a flop. People are moving farther away from religious identity with each generation (At least in India). So Hindu Ummah will never work.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

There is no Hindu Ummah. It is about land (Akhand Bharat) under Sanatan Dharma identity. That will be a flop. People are moving farther away from religious identity with each generation (At least in India). So Hindu Ummah will never work.

I didn't say it would work, I just said there was a yearning to achieve a hindu ummah via the hindutva movement. Regardless of the success, you cannot deny the movement which has seen the nation vote in a Hindu First govt.

 

[Sir-fraz]

How do you interpret the verses in Quran without Hadith? How do you know what exactly is being told?

Also, Quran was also transmitted orally after the death of Prophet Muhammed. There was no official Quran book when Muhammed lived.

Both Quran and Hadith are transmitted orally. Even Hadiths are not made up. Sahih Hadiths are Sahih for a reason.

I like how Muslims use Hadiths when they suit them and reject them when it does not.

i dont believe in any hadith. how do you interpret the quran? learn arabic if you such a die hard.

majority of the hadiths are made up to suit the maker. there countless out there that say burn all hadiths.

like i said, Muslims claim the quran is complete. then why do they need the hadith? the quran is complete, it should require no additional books to help interpret.

the quran wasnt written 200 years after his death. he was apparently getting the information from god and they were compiling it as he got it.

again if god could do that, why didnt he just send the message to all humans? why use arabic which was barely spoken back then..

Syrian Aramaic was the main language back then.

we are also getting reports now that they have found the quran written in Syrian Aramaic.

anyways i went on a tangent. let me digress.

humans have always worshiped something whether it was the sky god or sun god.

humans have always made up something to worship.

this is another one of humanities creation. there are an insane amount of contradictions in the quran. if god had written it, it would be perfect. yet muslims claim its perfect, and then they need the hadith to explain whats written. its a complete joke.

 

[troodon]

i dont believe in any hadith. how do you interpret the quran? learn arabic if you such a die hard.

majority of the hadiths are made up to suit the maker. there countless out there that say burn all hadiths.

like i said, Muslims claim the quran is complete. then why do they need the hadith? the quran is complete, it should require no additional books to help interpret.

the quran wasnt written 200 years after his death. he was apparently getting the information from god and they were compiling it as he got it.

again if god could do that, why didnt he just send the message to all humans? why use arabic which was barely spoken back then..

Syrian Aramaic was the main language back then.

we are also getting reports now that they have found the quran written in Syrian Aramaic.

anyways i went on a tangent. let me digress.

humans have always worshiped something whether it was the sky god or sun god.

humans have always made up something to worship.

this is another one of humanities creation. there are an insane amount of contradictions in the quran. if god had written it, it would be perfect. yet muslims claim its perfect, and then they need the hadith to explain whats written. its a complete joke.

Quran verses were revealed and the context is important to understand what the verse means. I am not a Muslim. I am only interested in learning about religions as a casual unbiased observer.

I take it you are not a Muslim.

 

[sweep_shot]

I like how Muslims use Hadiths when they suit them and reject them when it does not.

I accept all sahih hadiths. All major Islamic scholars recognize hadiths.

Those who reject hadiths are in the minority (with all due respect).

 

[troodon]

I didn't say it would work, I just said there was a yearning to achieve a hindu ummah via the hindutva movement. Regardless of the success, you cannot deny the movement which has seen the nation vote in a Hindu First govt.

There are efforts being put in by Hindu missionaries in India. They are following the path of Abrahamic faiths. You have to be aggressive in seeking converts, reverts.. Unlucky for them, the youth are lot less religious than their parents. It will only worsen for them with each generation.

 

[JaDed]

No such thing as Ummah anymore. We need to find our friends and allies and make an "ummah" out of them. China and Turkey are already our closest allies. Malaysia isn't so far off either. We can rope in Iran as well but they are always busy playing double games and backstabbing (Kulbhushan came from Iran).


If we didn't have to purchase oil from these arabs I would have been in favour of completely scaling down ties with them, unfortunately we do not have any choice at present. Cannot wait for the near future where electric cars will be the norm and these arabs will go down in importance massively. They aren't even loyal to their own kind you expect them to be loyal to us Al-Bakistani slaves?

I have been wishing oil dependency ends for years, thats India's biggest import, but have come to realize all the world’s richest people own refineries and would cut down on any massive electric car funding, Tesla was a rare one and look its almost bankrupt now.

These companies destroy Public transports funding in USA, electric car innovation is nothing to them atleast for min another 25 years.

 

[Sir-fraz]

Quran verses were revealed and the context is important to understand what the verse means. I am not a Muslim. I am only interested in learning about religions as a casual unbiased observer.

I take it you are not a Muslim.

nope. i dont follow any organized religions. i do still believe there is a creator. maybe thats because of my upbringing as a muslim.

 

[troodon]

nope. i dont follow any organized religions. i do still believe there is a creator. maybe thats because of my upbringing as a muslim.

Thank you. I respect your view.

 

[Sir-fraz]

Thank you. I respect your view.

Np man. Right back at ya.

Im more of a historian then a religious scholar.

History shows us religions mostly got used to control the masses. Regardless of the era you're in.

 

[KB]

The picture, as ever, is complex. On the level of international politics, Islamic solidarity is often under-cut by other attachments and interests. There are national allegiances, ethnic differences, religious and sectarian distinctions. Matters both material and mundane also often differentiate members of the community.

Yet as an idea it remains powerful. In some ways in the modern period it became more powerful even as states narrowly pursued national interests. Pilgrimage to Mecca, which enhances that sense of community, witnessed a ten fold increase in numbers attending between the 1920s and 1970s. The communications revolution - press, radio, television, internet - has brought global news to individual Muslims at a much faster pace. It has also enabled the diffusion of Islamic knowledge at a greater rate.

Then, we might make the point that the reality of difference and dissension within the Muslim community, makes the idea of unity more potent. The awareness of disunity has been expressed by many, not least by the sensitive thinker Muhammad Iqbal. Take an Iqbal Persian quatrain, translated by Mustansir Mir:



Muslims are at war with one another

And in their hearts they harbour only schism;

They cry out if someone else pulls a brick

Out of a mosque which they themselves shun

In another poem (also translated by Mustansir Mir), Iqbal pointed to Muslim disunity and inertia being apparent in prayer:

“The rows are uneven, the hearts adrift, the prostration joyless.”


In certain circumstances, such feelings can be turned into powerful calls for action and unity. The Pakistan movement in the 1940s is an example. David Gilmartin has convincingly shown that in the 1946 provincial elections, the Muslim League projected the idea of Pakistan as an embodiment of Muslim unity in contradistinction to fitna or disorder and, actual existing, disunity amongst Muslims. But it must be stressed that this ideal driving action is evident only in certain contexts and usually not sustained for great periods. 


 

[JaDed]


In certain circumstances, such feelings can be turned into powerful calls for action and unity. The Pakistan movement in the 1940s is an example. David Gilmartin has convincingly shown that in the 1946 provincial elections, the Muslim League projected the idea of Pakistan as an embodiment of Muslim unity in contradistinction to fitna or disorder and, actual existing, disunity amongst Muslims. But it must be stressed that this ideal driving action is evident only in certain contexts and usually not sustained for great periods. 


And you don’t see an issue with that as such , am i right?
To give you an idea Hindu right wing movement started as an opposition to the Muslim League, the people who were residing together for years in Punjab, basically voted to throw their neighbors out of the country in the long scheme of things.

India voted such a govn based on such calls for ‘unity’ and see how it has worked out.

Irrespective of how movements start when voted based on religion than region, culture extremist religious movements are easier to take place, not saying ethnic violence doesn’t happen (Myanmar,Bhutan) , but the constitution is easier to maintain if its not based on imagination.

 

[Musakhel]

Mutawatir hadith and Quran were transmitted the same way, you can't reject one and accept the other.

 

[Rayyman]

Unfortunately, most of us Westerners are embarrassed of our faith and this holds us back from showing unity among fellow Muslims. I myself am guilty of this.

 

[JaDed]

Unfortunately, most of us Westerners are embarrassed of our faith and this holds us back from showing unity among fellow Muslims. I myself am guilty of this.

You are embarrassed about your faith? Probably a teenager thing at best..

 

[Lonewarrior]

No, I'm not. The view is indeed not mainstream orthodox sunni view. I was only commenting based on the Qur'an and what it says. Most of the scholars have formed an opinion based on hadith and also borrowing from Christianity with the whole dajjal and anti-christ thing.

I would love to elaborate a bit on how the whole idea of the second coming and dajjal came into Islam but that is a rather long write up that I highly doubt anyone would be interested in

so wheres written in the Holy Quran about praying 5 times a day ?

 

[miandadrules]

Why would Muslim scholars borrow things from Christianity? That doesn't make sense.

There are some similarities between Islam and Christianity because we both have same Abrahamic root.
Bible, after all, was a holy book from God that got corrupted (as per Islamic belief).

Listening for the penny to drop.

 

[Sir-fraz]

so wheres written in the Holy Quran about praying 5 times a day ?

it doesnt.. it doesnt even say how we should pray. all that comes in the form of the hadith.

 

[Sir-fraz]

Mutawatir hadith and Quran were transmitted the same way, you can't reject one and accept the other.

no it wasnt.. the first hadith was written 200 years after the prophets death.. while the quran was completed the same year he died.

do some research.

 

[Sir-fraz]

we should want a secular nation.. no nation should be ruled by one particular religion.

 

[PakLFC]

It is dead amongst the governments and Arab's. It is still alive amongst everyday Muslim's as well. I say this after having received so much love and respect in many countries like Turkey, Algeria and Morocco just for being Muslim and a Pakistani.

 

[MenInG]

It is dead amongst the governments and Arab's. It is still alive amongst everyday Muslim's as well. I say this after having received so much love and respect in many countries like Turkey, Algeria and Morocco just for being Muslim and a Pakistani.

Seems that they have a different definition of Ummah!

 

[sweep_shot]

It is dead amongst the governments and Arab's. It is still alive amongst everyday Muslim's as well. I say this after having received so much love and respect in many countries like Turkey, Algeria and Morocco just for being Muslim and a Pakistani.

Agree with you fully.

Not all Arabs are like that. Only the puppet governments are like that. Regular people from different countries still feel a sense of unity. Ummah is dead politically but it is not dead religion-wise.

 

[Musakhel]

no it wasnt.. the first hadith was written 200 years after the prophets death.. while the quran was completed the same year he died.

do some research.

Quran was transmitted Orally on a mass scale that is what Muttawatir means, same is the case for muttawatir hadith, it doesn't matter when it was compiled rather the method of transmission.

 

[warcry]

the arabs are useless in all aspects. the only reason they are relevant is oil.

there is a scope of uniting the non arab islamic countries, some of them at least.

Turkey, Iran, Pakistan & Malaysia could unite and form some sort of EU and NATO type organization with a single gold backed currency,a joint army, a free trade agreement, visa on arrival etc. and we can call it a caliphate and be done with it.

 

[AdamM97]

Islam encourages all Muslims to be united but unfortunately Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States are very racist and care more about material gains than the Ummah. Even Pakistanis seem to prefer ethnicity over religion, unfortunately.

People seem to have gotten upset over UAE awarding Modi with the highest civilian honour. UAE and Saudi has treated Pakistanis as 2nd class citizens since forever, we should've had realized that they don't care about the Ummah long ago.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Islam encourages all Muslims to be united but unfortunately Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States are very racist and care more about material gains than the Ummah. Even Pakistanis seem to prefer ethnicity over religion, unfortunately.

People seem to have gotten upset over UAE awarding Modi with the highest civilian honour. UAE and Saudi has treated Pakistanis as 2nd class citizens since forever, we should've had realized that they don't care about the Ummah long ago.

Maybe Pakistanis are 2nd class citizens and happy to be so, in which case why blame Arabs for treating as such?

 

[AdamM97]

Maybe Pakistanis are 2nd class citizens and happy to be so, in which case why blame Arabs for treating as such?

True. Only when you respect yourself will others respect you.

 

[Sir-fraz]

Quran was transmitted Orally on a mass scale that is what Muttawatir means, same is the case for muttawatir hadith, it doesn't matter when it was compiled rather the method of transmission.

I cant think of the fallacies name.

I dont know if you grew up in the west. But in grade school, we played a game where one student started off telling the real story verbally. And the next student had to retell the same story to the student beside him. 4 kids later the story had changed.

Quran was finished the same year the prophet died.

But the hadith was written 200 years after.

Are you really that naive to think that things didnt get altered during all that time?

It does matter when it was compiled and what the method of transmission was. Especially regarding this.

Use some logic...

 

[Musakhel]

I cant think of the fallacies name.

I dont know if you grew up in the west. But in grade school, we played a game where one student started off telling the real story verbally. And the next student had to retell the same story to the student beside him. 4 kids later the story had changed.

Quran was finished the same year the prophet died.

But the hadith was written 200 years after.

Are you really that naive to think that things didnt get altered during all that time?

It does matter when it was compiled and what the method of transmission was. Especially regarding this.

Use some logic...

I'm talking of Muttawatir hadith, you obviously don't know what that is.

 

[Mueez]

It is dead amongst the governments and Arab's. It is still alive amongst everyday Muslim's as well. I say this after having received so much love and respect in many countries like Turkey, Algeria and Morocco just for being Muslim and a Pakistani.

This is very true.

I have many Turkish and Moroccan friends and we are like brothers.

They treat me and every other Muslim as a brother/sister of their own.

 

[Sir-fraz]

I'm talking of Muttawatir hadith, you obviously don't know what that is.

forget it. my point clearly blew over your head. i dont care what hadith it is. fact is they were all written 200 years after the prophets death. how can you trust oral transfer over 200 years is beyond me.

on top of that you arguing over a shia based hadith. islam has become the new Christianity with so many different sects, yet your here to argue that nothing has been changed LMAO.. wahabism, sunnism, shiaism, Baha'i, ahmadhis, sufism, Twelvers, Ismailis, and Zaydis.

i could go on. But i think you get my point. clearly everything has changed.

lets be honest there is no such thing as a chosen religion. there never was, and never will be.

 

[sweep_shot]

forget it. my point clearly blew over your head. i dont care what hadith it is. fact is they were all written 200 years after the prophets death. how can you trust oral transfer over 200 years is beyond me.

on top of that you arguing over a shia based hadith. islam has become the new Christianity with so many different sects, yet your here to argue that nothing has been changed LMAO.. wahabism, sunnism, shiaism, Baha'i, ahmadhis, sufism, Twelvers, Ismailis, and Zaydis.

i could go on. But i think you get my point. clearly everything has changed.

lets be honest there is no such thing as a chosen religion. there never was, and never will be.

So, what is your present belief now? Are you like a non-religious monotheist?

Disagree with your hadith opinion.

 

[Sir-fraz]

So, what is your present belief now? Are you like a non-religious monotheist?

Disagree with your hadith opinion.

personally i dont follow any organized religion. i believe in a creator. its your right to disagree, but i suggest you do more research on that topic.

too many religions out there, on top of that each and everyone thinks they are the right one.

believe what you want, just dont push it on others. its a personal matter.

 

[MenInG]

The Ummar is a necessary concept for survival of Islam - but one does wonder the point of that concept when Muslims are too busy appeasing the Almighty $$$ instead of ALLAH SWT!

 

[Mueez]

The Ummar is a necessary concept for survival of Islam - but one does wonder the point of that concept when Muslims are too busy appeasing the Almighty $$$ instead of ALLAH SWT!

Guess what Israel is opening its first embassy in Saudi Arabia.

Sad state of affairs.

 

[sweep_shot]

Guess what Israel has opened its first embassy in Saudi Arabia.

Sad state of affairs.

I haven't seen any major media reporting it. It could be fake news.

If it is true, it is sad indeed.

 

[Mueez]

I haven't seen any major media reporting it. It could be fake news.

If it is true, it is sad indeed.

If I’m not wrong Saudis have also opened an embassy in Israel.

So, it could be true...

 

[daytrader]

OIC condemns Israeli war crimes
Bloc rejects Tel Aviv’s claims regarding hospital bombing; castigates West for double standards

The Organization of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) in an extraordinary meeting in Jeddah on Wednesday termed the attack on the al-Ahli Arab Hospital in Gaza a “war crime”, strongly rejecting the Israeli claims that it was not behind the bombing.

The extraordinary meeting of the OIC Executive Committee was held in Jeddah on Wednesday, the same day when US President Biden was in Israel for showing solidarity with the Jewish state, and his country vetoed a UN Security Council resolution that would have condemned the Israeli atrocities.

To rub the salt on the Palestinians’ wounds, Biden endorsed Israeli claims that its forces didn’t bomb the hospital. But the OIC meeting co-chaired by Pakistan and Saudi Arabia challenged the Israeli and US version and squarely blamed Tel Aviv for the “brutal” attack.

Foreign Minister Jalil Abbas Jilani represented Pakistan at the urgent open-ended ministerial meeting of the OIC Executive Committee, strongly condemning the Israeli atrocities.

“Israel’s indiscriminate and disproportionate use of force amounted to war crimes and crimes against humanity,” he said.

Palestinian Foreign Minister Riad Malki, who was also attending the executive meeting, accused Israel of “intentionally” bombing the hospital, saying that the Gaza Strip’s residents were being subjected to genocide.

A joint communique issued after the meeting strongly criticised the UN Security Council for failing to prevent the humanitarian catastrophe but more importantly launched a broadside against the Israeli backers for their “double standards”.

The statement held Israel’s backers responsible for encouraging the Jewish state to commit atrocities with impunity. But the most significant part of the joint statement was the OIC’s rejection of Israeli claims on the Gaza hospital massacre.

Gaza carnage a war crime: OIC condemns Israeli war crimes | The Express Tribune

Bloc rejects Tel Aviv’s claims regarding hospital bombing; castigates West for double standards

tribune.com.pk

 

[Champ_Pal]

You can only unite people when they are either attacking a nation or defending their homeland. Centuries ago when Arabs were expanding their nascent kingdom, they had the impetus to spread their ideology and were unified under one banner of Islam. It worked for as long as they were expanding.
Once western and eastern world have advanced past Middle East civilization significantly and there was no scope of expansion, the internal squabbles between nations, sects, race have boiled over to the top. Its every nation for themselves. Every sect and race for themselves. People can see past the religion what is on the other side.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

You can only unite people when they are either attacking a nation or defending their homeland. Centuries ago when Arabs were expanding their nascent kingdom, they had the impetus to spread their ideology and were unified under one banner of Islam. It worked for as long as they were expanding.
Once western and eastern world have advanced past Middle East civilization significantly and there was no scope of expansion, the internal squabbles between nations, sects, race have boiled over to the top. Its every nation for themselves. Every sect and race for themselves. People can see past the religion what is on the other side.

I'm surprised the Muslim Ummah is even mentioned so much by Bharati posters then. Just let it die a death and if I was a hindutva I would probably be offering something better to entice Muslims into the Hindu fold. If you do, then it doesn't seem to be working.

Take me for example, I am a really pathetic version of a Muslim, definitely one by name only for the most part, although there are some basic principles which I admire and uphold with no problem. You should be able to convince me to join you and beat the Hindu drum, but what I see from you guys just puts me off completely. Too much fake aggression and resentment over history, and no solutions.

 

[Saanji]

I'm surprised the Muslim Ummah is even mentioned so much by Bharati posters then. Just let it die a death and if I was a hindutva I would probably be offering something better to entice Muslims into the Hindu fold. If you do, then it doesn't seem to be working.

Take me for example, I am a really pathetic version of a Muslim, definitely one by name only for the most part, although there are some basic principles which I admire and uphold with no problem. You should be able to convince me to join you and beat the Hindu drum, but what I see from you guys just puts me off completely. Too much fake aggression and resentment over history, and no solutions.

I don't think the caste based Hindutva will allow us to assimilate in their fold. Which caste will they put us in?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I don't think the caste based Hindutva will allow us to assimilate in their fold. Which caste will they put us in?

See what I mean? It's not such an enticing alternative to the Ummah really is it?

 

[VForVendetta]

The concept was on death bed for many years,centuries, basically in ICU. But with the fall of Abdul Hamid & the entire Ottoman dynasty, it's funeral was orchestrated formally. Now maybe a large portion of general Muslims around the globe still believe on it & dream of reviving it, the truth is it's simply not possible in the current world order. Pretty much all the Muslim leaders are either gutless, greedy or simply stooges of the super powers. Most significanty you can't expect to revive Ummah while sleeping on the fact that the Islamic center(Mecca,Medina) is basically ruled & controlled by a bunch of thugs & murderers. As long as the Saud dynasty remains in power any attempt of revival will die painful death.
It took almost a century for general public to finally realize what Sauds really are & what kinds of atrocities they committed to gain power. Similarly for many decades, Kemal Pasha was the symbol of heroism & bravery amongst billions of Muslims when in reality he was the complete opposite. The guy wasn't even a Muslim for God's sake! Lack of self awareness & common sense blinded them to idolize monsters like Kemal for half a century. The states have become so pathetic that they can't even properly condemn what's happening in Palestine at the moment.

 

[Justcrazy]

Its not dead , it is just down.

 

[Justcrazy]

There is no second coming of Jesus mentioned in the Qur'an. He's not coming back.

Surah 3 Verse 55 "when Allah said, Isa! certainly I will cause you to die and would raise you to myself and will protect you from those people who rejected you"

People have come to the conclusion that Jesus will return and did not die based on the ambiguous language of Surah Al Nisa which does two things 1) denies that the Jews killed Jesus and 2) affirms that God raised him to heaven.

This leads towards speculation with regards to the status.

In fact, the language of the Quran is not eschatological when it comes to Jesus. Surah al nisa refers to his role as a witness on the day of resurrection while surah al zukhruf describes him as knowledge of sign of the hour. Both verses allude to Jesus' place in the apocalyptic hour not in the end times.

None of the events which Jesus is believed to accomplish in the end times such as killing Dajjal, leading people in prayers, breaking crosses, killing swine etc. are mentioned in the Quran.

Having said that. There is not and has never been a Muslim 'Ummah'.

So if something is not found in Quran , it is false?

 

[Justcrazy]

too many people mentioning the hadith..

if you guys were real followers of islam, you would know the book is complete. why bother reading and believing in the hadith when it was written 200 years after Mohammeds death? they are made up stories at this point, and they hold ZERO value among academics.

Real question is which one of you actually follows islam to the T? no one
everyone here has a different interpretation of their religion.

ummah doesnt need to revive just like how we dont need priests/imams.

times have moved on.

organized religions are a cult. no question.

be a good human, do good things. life is simple but we humans make it complicated.

Do you know the science of hadeeth or just writing for the sake of writing ?

 

[Justcrazy]

I accept all sahih hadiths. All major Islamic scholars recognize hadiths.

Those who reject hadiths are in the minority (with all due respect).

Those who reject Hadeeth completely are not Muslims.

 

[daytrader]

Its not dead , it is just down.

On a people to people level it's not dead at all. With Ijtimai prayers, special duas at Jummah and protests everywhere - the invasion of Gaza has seen Muslims of all backgrounds come together. Wish I could say the same about leaders of Muslim countries

 

[Sir-fraz]

Do you know the science of hadeeth or just writing for the sake of writing ?

How does science have anything to do with books written 200 years after the prophet died...

Anyways keep doing you... i love how muslims claim who is not muslim. When it clearly states in the quran only allah knows...

 

[Sir-fraz]

Those who reject Hadeeth completely are not Muslims.

So you believe all hadeeth? And who made you the judge of whos muslims or whos not? Are you god? Humble yourself.

Have you even read all the hadeeths? There are 1000s which one is right which one is wrong? There is only one Quran...

 

[Champ_Pal]

I don't think the caste based Hindutva will allow us to assimilate in their fold. Which caste will they put us in?

You do not need a caste to become a Hindu. Sindhis do not have caste system. Yet there are Sindhi Hindus.

Caste is something not needed. It was very fluid until about 6th or 7th century. There are many Europeans who follow Hinduism and they have no caste. They are jus devotees. If you want to become a Hindu, you can be a devotee. No shahada or special baptism needed for it.

 

[Suleiman]

It is very much alive.

But anyone who subscribes to man made nationalities and borders (especially because they were imposed by outside influence of US, UK etc) may find it difficult to understand. Which is understandable if you are non Muslim.

Unfortunately too many Muslims identify as whatever country they are from first rather than identifying as a Muslim first.

A lot of ulema for Eg see the failed retrieval of the lands the Yahood stole with help from US / UK because the Arab “countries” did it in the name of Arab nationalism rather than all Muslims coming together, be it Pakistani or Jordanian, in the name of Allah, and with the intention of protecting their Muslim brothers and sisters NO MATTER THE ETHNICITY.

By contrast look at the Jews… anyone can get citizenship in Israel as long as they are Jewish. Yet for the longest time you couldn’t get citizenship in countries like Qatar if you weren’t ethnically Qatari.

Today a lot of us Muslims differentiate amongst ourselves in so many sub categories.

Eg. You’re not just Pakistani, you’re Pathan, Punjabi, Mohajir, Balochi, whatever else when it should be that you’re Muslim first. And you will be treated differently if you are of the minority in an area at times.

Even under Islam, one guy will say he is deobandi, or sufi or this or that…

Go back to the era of the Sahaba, then during the reign of the Rashidun Khalifa, Umayyad, Abbasid, Ottoman Sultanate, and you will realize how important it is to have the perspective of one Ummah.

Haroon Rasheed marched with an entire army as Khalifa during the Abbasid reign when he got word the Romans wronged ONE Muslim woman somewhere else in the world.

That’s the love you have for one another when you think like this.

(He did the same for a non Muslim woman as well)

Imagine that… a leader taking an entire army with him at the news of 1 life in the world being wronged… yet where are we now?

 

[Saanji]

You do not need a caste to become a Hindu. Sindhis do not have caste system. Yet there are Sindhi Hindus.

Caste is something not needed. It was very fluid until about 6th or 7th century. There are many Europeans who follow Hinduism and they have no caste. They are jus devotees. If you want to become a Hindu, you can be a devotee. No shahada or special baptism needed for it.

Then they are not following the scriptures. It is funny how some religions try to put a modern spin on their values to stay relevant.
Caste is the fundamental core of Hindu scriptures.
"Fluid till 6th century " i dont know where you get that, mahaveer and buddha got their large following as they rejected some of the ills of caste system in 6th century BC brother. Get your facts right.
Atleast Islam doesn't pretend to do that and stays rooted to its Arabic medieval past staunchly.

 

[sweep_shot]

Concept of Ummah is definitely not dead among general populations of different Muslim states. They feel a brotherhood generally.

It is only weak at state level. Rulers of different Muslim states tend to care about their own interests.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Then they are not following the scriptures. It is funny how some religions try to put a modern spin on their values to stay relevant.
Caste is the fundamental core of Hindu scriptures.
"Fluid till 6th century " i dont know where you get that, mahaveer and buddha got their large following as they rejected some of the ills of caste system in 6th century BC brother. Get your facts right.
Atleast Islam doesn't pretend to do that and stays rooted to its Arabic medieval past staunchly.

Which scripture makes caste compulsory?

 

[Saanji]

Which scripture makes caste compulsory?

Every scripture sir. Now you can try and put a modern twist on how varna are not to be taken literally. Bhagwad Gita clearly tells how karma dictate what caste , animal or gender a person is born as. A person's duties are determined by his or her caste and status.
Don't worry all religions put their modern twist to keep themselves relevant.