Is this the beginning of the end of Indian ODI domination?

[Captain caveman]

If india win this world cup, people will laugh at this thread, but that will only be papering over the cracks!
Sachin, sehwag, yuvi and now dhoni are gone. India has been relying on 3 guys for ages, kohli, sharma and dhawan.
Wheres the new youngsters?
Kl rahul, pant, samson, gill, shaw?
What i've seen so far from these youngsters , hasn't impressed me!
So is this the beginning of the end of indian domination of odi cricket?

 

[jnaveen1980]

Get rid of a few dead woods. Once Dhawan is back they will be alright. But for Dhonis stupid non review India might have even won the game.

 

[Captain caveman]

Get rid of a few dead woods. Once Dhawan is back they will be alright. But for Dhonis stupid non review India might have even won the game.

But how long are you going to depend on kohli, sharma and dhawan?
There all in their 30s.
The new guys don't look special, kl rahul, shankar etc.
Are gill and shaw the real deal or just hype jobs?

 

[MMHS]

If india win this world cup, people will laugh at this thread, but that will only be papering over the cracks!
Sachin, sehwag, yuvi and now dhoni are gone. India has been relying on 3 guys for ages, kohli, sharma and dhawan.
Wheres the new youngsters?
Kl rahul, pant, samson, gill, shaw?
What i've seen so far from these youngsters , hasn't impressed me!
So is this the beginning of the end of indian domination of odi cricket?

NO - system produces players; individuals are phased out with next batch.

Every generation, Indian system will produce contemporary best players. Yes, there are some individuals beyond generation - you don’t produce an Imran, Wasim, Tend’kar or Kohli in every generation, but somewhere it’ll be compensated within playing XI. But, overall there will be couple of batsmen among top few in world; same can be said for spin pair, WK, even pacer.

This is the reason only 8 teams has won soccer WC, despite it’s the main game for over 170 countries. Brazil, Germany, Italy, France, Argentina, Uruguay, Spain and few other countries produce top class players every generation - next Argentina No. 10 will again be someone special, French No. 6 will be best in his position, or Italian No. 3, German No. 1, Brazil’s No. 9 .... so on.

This is one of example I have given many times - my Indian 20 men squad (for 3 formats) will have (by debut)

1 from 50s (Mankad)
2 from 60s (BsB, GR Vishy)
3 from 70s (Gavaskar, Kapil, Kirmani)
3 from 80s (SRT, Azhar, Srinath)
5 from 90s (Kumble, Dravid, Ganguly, Sehwag, VVS)
6 from 00s & 10 (Zak, MS, Yuvraz, Ashwin, Kohli, Bumrah)

In last 9 years, 3 players have replaced weakest 3 from past - Ashwin, Kohli & Bumrah for Bhajji, Hazare, Subhas Gupte

If I take it to 19 years - MS has replaced Engineer, Yuvraz has replaced Shastri, Sehwag has replaced Vengsarkar ....., Ganguly has replaced Amarnath.

Bottom line is, Indian all-time 20 is getting stronger by phasing our players from past generations. That’s exactly the case for Australia, England, South Africa (this is temporary transition for them), even NZ. It was the case for WIN as well at one time - in 6 consecutive decades their middle order was built around Headley, Weekes, Sobers, Kanhai, Viv, Lara... their opening bowler was Wes Hall, Andy Roberts, Mike Holding, Malcolm Marshall, Curley Ambrose; their No. 1 opener was Frank Worell, Conrad Hunt, Roy Fredricks, GGrineedge .....

You do the same for PAK (or SRL, WIN) - signs are alarmingly depressing.

 

[jnaveen1980]

But how long are you going to depend on kohli, sharma and dhawan?
There all in their 30s.
The new guys don't look special, kl rahul, shankar etc.
Are gill and shaw the real deal or just hype jobs?

Yes Gill is a real deal. Not hype jobs. Shaw has a weakness. We just identified in the IPL. Fixable though. Agarwal is a gun btasman. Already proved at the test level.

 

[Sachin136]

If india win this world cup, people will laugh at this thread, but that will only be papering over the cracks!
Sachin, sehwag, yuvi and now dhoni are gone. India has been relying on 3 guys for ages, kohli, sharma and dhawan.
Wheres the new youngsters?
Kl rahul, pant, samson, gill, shaw?
What i've seen so far from these youngsters , hasn't impressed me!
So is this the beginning of the end of indian domination of odi cricket?

If you don't find Gill impressive then there's not much to say.

 

[KP From India]

We are not going to win this WC mate.
Our bowling had hidden our middle order woes for long. We were never favourites even if this WC was to be held in Sub-continent.
Heck, even Nz with Neesham, De Grandhome and Santner is better than us.

 

[fanofcricket4life]

It seems like pakistanis are more upset at yesterday's result than Indians.

 

[jnaveen1980]

If anything India's batting will be in safer hands than now. Kohli,Dhawan, Rohit transition will take another couple of years. Before that Grandpa will have left. Jadhav will have left. Two dead woods. Gill, Pant will walk in. I expect Manjot Kalra to succeed Dhawan. He is a bit like left handed Sehwag.

 

[loves_cricket]

You look more upset of india's lose then Indians
We are not dominant team in ODI"s as you suggest we just lost home series against Australia recently
And buddy one should look at own''s issues first before pointing at others
We are well aware of our problems and will try to sort it out

 

[MP2011]

We are not going to win this WC mate.
Our bowling had hidden our middle order woes for long. We were never favourites even if this WC was to be held in Sub-continent.
Heck, even Nz with Neesham, De Grandhome and Santner is better than us.

Agree with this. We have a pathetic team.

 

[jnaveen1980]

England lost to Pakistan, Srilanka, Australia. no end to their domination. Suddenly India losing to England (missing a key player) in favorable condition for the opposition will cause "End o domination?"

 

[CricketIsAwesome]

It is a fundamental difference in the culture of developing FC cricketrs between the two countries. You can only have so many talented players like Md Amir or Kohli who only come one at a time, every few years. The rest have to be developed with a progression path meant to further hone their developed skills, getting them ready for the big game.

Now jus look at this pipeline for both countries and see who is better positioned to take the mantle when the current gen leaves and you have your answer

 

[Hasan123]

No. India will produce elite players and replace the deadwood imo. They also already have a solid core of players who will be around at the next WC.

 

[Shafi]

India didn’t want to win that. Over reaction.

 

[RamLakhan]

Actually its better we lost a match in league stage! We are now more likely to beat England if we meet them again in SF/Finals! I don't think England will bat the same way again in a knockout match, also the pitch may not be flat again and also the luck of toss!

 

[RamLakhan]

Even if India wins this cup I will not be happy with this team combination and it will actually help few ugly players to remain in the team for longer (Dhoni may also postpone his retirement!)

 

[Captain caveman]

Yes Gill is a real deal. Not hype jobs. Shaw has a weakness. We just identified in the IPL. Fixable though. Agarwal is a gun btasman. Already proved at the test level.

Agarwal did well in australia after replacing vijay , i believe!
Is he an odi player though?
Yes i saw gill and shaw in under 19s wc, very impressive, but 2014 under 19 wc, your captain(i forgot his name) another batsman was very impressive, never heard about him again!

 

[Captain caveman]

It is a fundamental difference in the culture of developing FC cricketrs between the two countries. You can only have so many talented players like Md Amir or Kohli who only come one at a time, every few years. The rest have to be developed with a progression path meant to further hone their developed skills, getting them ready for the big game.

Now jus look at this pipeline for both countries and see who is better positioned to take the mantle when the current gen leaves and you have your answer

India of course!!
We have no system, i genuinely dread to think of the number of possible world class players that have slip through paks fingers, because we don't have a proper system!

 

[Captain caveman]

Even if India wins this cup I will not be happy with this team combination and it will actually help few ugly players to remain in the team for longer (Dhoni may also postpone his retirement!)

2 back to back world t20 in 2020 and 2021, dhoni ain't missing those, especially with the second one to take place in india!
Malik is trying the same game, but we will get him out, inshaAllah!
Good luck to you guys as well, need to push dhoni out now(great player, but too old now)!

 

[Dead Ball]

NO - system produces players; individuals are phased out with next batch.

Every generation, Indian system will produce contemporary best players. Yes, there are some individuals beyond generation - you don’t produce an Imran, Wasim, Tend’kar or Kohli in every generation, but somewhere it’ll be compensated within playing XI. But, overall there will be couple of batsmen among top few in world; same can be said for spin pair, WK, even pacer.

This is the reason only 8 teams has won soccer WC, despite it’s the main game for over 170 countries. Brazil, Germany, Italy, France, Argentina, Uruguay, Spain and few other countries produce top class players every generation - next Argentina No. 10 will again be someone special, French No. 6 will be best in his position, or Italian No. 3, German No. 1, Brazil’s No. 9 .... so on.

This is one of example I have given many times - my Indian 20 men squad (for 3 formats) will have (by debut)

1 from 50s (Mankad)
2 from 60s (BsB, GR Vishy)
3 from 70s (Gavaskar, Kapil, Kirmani)
3 from 80s (SRT, Azhar, Srinath)
5 from 90s (Kumble, Dravid, Ganguly, Sehwag, VVS)
6 from 00s & 10 (Zak, MS, Yuvraz, Ashwin, Kohli, Bumrah)

In last 9 years, 3 players have replaced weakest 3 from past - Ashwin, Kohli & Bumrah for Bhajji, Hazare, Subhas Gupte

If I take it to 19 years - MS has replaced Engineer, Yuvraz has replaced Shastri, Sehwag has replaced Vengsarkar ....., Ganguly has replaced Amarnath.

Bottom line is, Indian all-time 20 is getting stronger by phasing our players from past generations. That’s exactly the case for Australia, England, South Africa (this is temporary transition for them), even NZ. It was the case for WIN as well at one time - in 6 consecutive decades their middle order was built around Headley, Weekes, Sobers, Kanhai, Viv, Lara... their opening bowler was Wes Hall, Andy Roberts, Mike Holding, Malcolm Marshall, Curley Ambrose; their No. 1 opener was Frank Worell, Conrad Hunt, Roy Fredricks, GGrineedge .....

You do the same for PAK (or SRL, WIN) - signs are alarmingly depressing.

Great post...

 

[jagatk]

Agarwal did well in australia after replacing vijay , i believe!
Is he an odi player though?
Yes i saw gill and shaw in under 19s wc, very impressive, but 2014 under 19 wc, your captain(i forgot his name) another batsman was very impressive, never heard about him again!

Agarwal averages 49 at a SR of 101 in list A, we will be fine.

 

[Captain caveman]

No. India will produce elite players and replace the deadwood imo. They also already have a solid core of players who will be around at the next WC.

Suggestion is india is now producing elite t20 players not test or odi players, due to the success and money involved in the IPL!.

 

[Ab Fan]

If india win this world cup, people will laugh at this thread, but that will only be papering over the cracks!
Sachin, sehwag, yuvi and now dhoni are gone. India has been relying on 3 guys for ages, kohli, sharma and dhawan.
Wheres the new youngsters?
Kl rahul, pant, samson, gill, shaw?
What i've seen so far from these youngsters , hasn't impressed me!
So is this the beginning of the end of indian domination of odi cricket?

Pant and Shaw will come good in 1.5-2 years and we will have Rohit and Kohli there till next World Cup as well. Gill will also come good with time. He should be India's no. 4 after World Cup and Pant should replace Kaptaan at no. 5 after WC. Pandya at 7 and we are better if we start looking at good no. 6.

So, we will be having:-

Pant
Shaw
Gill
Pandya

Bowling:-

Bumrah and Shami both are young and former is phenomenal while latter is good. Kulcha are also young but can be expensive if things don't go write for them.

The future is fine, actually. It's currently where we are depending on the individuals- Rohit, Kohli, Bumrah.

 

[Ab Fan]

India's batting post the WC should be:-

Rohit
Dhawan
Kohli
Gill
Pant(wkt)
______
Pandya
Shami
Kuldeep
Chahal
Bumrah

However, if India have to win this WC, they are dependent on Kohli, Rohit and Bumrah a lot. Toss may play a factor during the semis and finals because to be honest, there is not a gulf of difference between the top four teams and winning the toss can give the advantage to the team.

 

[Captain caveman]

I only see kohli, bumra, pandya and kuldeep making it to the next wc!
And kohli is starting to decline as an odi batsman!
Sharma and dhawan, if they play next wc will be like dhoni in this wc, a burden!
Shami looks alot older than his official age.
I don't know about kl rahul and pant, they may make to the next world cup, but they look decent, not world class!
Gill, shaw ,malvi and navajot(sorry if i mis spelt their names) are the hopes for the future, lets see if they can deliver!

 

[Rellu_Katta]

lol .. no disrespect but this is a joke ... i abs hate india ( in cricketing sense as our rivals , nothing more ) but india have taken off in the last few years.. i think this is a stronger team than the Dhoni XI of 2011.. their bowling is just world class...Shami + Bumrah + Kuldeep are 3 very amazing attacking wicket taking bowlers and that brings the better of Chahal + Pandya + Bhuvneshwar(as bowlers) who i think are just average. they have variety in their attack

Batting wise, I think they are very dependent on Kholi, yes, but kholi is kholi .. he is simply amazing ... and with Rohit Sharma and Dhawan and Pant and few youngsters (who i again think are just above average/average) they rise up and put a great fight ... and most of these guys are young.. bar a few oldies who obviosuly will be gone soon...

Fielding + fitness... very high level... they put everything on the line in fielding ... a tight fielding unit..

so no, this is not the end of their dominance .. the game against england , yes they didnt give their 100% which is understandable but they will be top 3 teams in near future atleast

 

[Kriketer]

They sure won't ever be a team to dominate the game like Australia and WI did for decades. Pretty much none of the South Asian teams will ever be capable of dominating cricket in the long term basis. New crops of India aren't too much to talk of but they will remain a competitive side, atleast in shorter format.

 

[the Great Khan]

so essentially the best way to beat India is get a flat pitch, hope you can bat first, if you do make sure you score 340 ish, expect Kohli and sharma to get big scores but restrict the rest. Then when there are only 7 ish overs left hope that you can get Dhoni in the middle as he wont bother going for the target..

 

[Captain caveman]

They sure won't ever be a team to dominate the game like Australia and WI did for decades. Pretty much none of the South Asian teams will ever be capable of dominating cricket in the long term basis. New crops of India aren't too much to talk of but they will remain a competitive side, atleast in shorter format.

Yes i agree!
India will produce good players, but not the sachins, sehwags, yuvis, dhonis, kohlis,sharmas and dhawans, i don't think!

 

[Captain caveman]

so essentially the best way to beat India is get a flat pitch, hope you can bat first, if you do make sure you score 340 ish, expect Kohli and sharma to get big scores but restrict the rest. Then when there are only 7 ish overs left hope that you can get Dhoni in the middle as he wont bother going for the target..

This seems the formula, lol!

 

[shockbound]

End is not happening without fall of leagues.

 

[aqeelPK]

Pakistan's future looks more brighter than India's if we compare young talent available in both countries.

 

[Babbar]

Hey, India just became #1 in ODI 2 weeks back. India’s peak will come near end-2020 when when middle order will have a more mature Shivam, Shubham, Mayank, Prithvi and gun pacers from last few years’ under-19.

Also some oldies will move out while Kohli and Bumrah will be a little more mature.

India’s real ODI domination will be from end-2020 to 2024 when Kohli goes the Dhoni way. This Kohli’s team is just a pretender between Tendulkar-Sehwag-Saurabh-Yuvraj-Raina-Dhoni team and what’s coming in 12-18 months.

 

[arunpsm]

Dhoni is a good finisher but his range has come down owing to age. Even now, if there is a RRR of 9+ for 5 overs you can count him to get, but we dont have the same trust on flamboyant players like Pandya or Pant (at least not yet). They may win only 50-50. Whereas with Dhoni its a sureshot win. So let someone else establish himself as the finisher a la the old Dhoni, then we can bash him up.

 

[TNAmarkFromIndia]

I expect Gill and Shaw to be big players for India in the future if they keep their head straight. Let's not forget that from 2007-2012, Rohit Sharma averaged 30.43 at a strike rate of 77.93 in ODIs. Dhawan wasn't even in the conversation with Sehwag and Gambhir opening the batting. No one expected both of them to be as vital to India's ODI batting unit as they are today. Great players are not made in a day. Shaw has yet to play an ODI and Gill has only played a couple. They will get more opportunities to play at the international level after this World Cup, and who knows, we may talk about them one day in the same breath as Sharma and Dhawan now.

 

[Revolution]

Pak fans are telling India lost the game to favor England. How this thread is suitable at this point now.

Just asking

 

[Hasan123]

Suggestion is india is now producing elite t20 players not test or odi players, due to the success and money involved in the IPL!.

Shaw and Agrwaal look like good test players to me. India have the resources to keep on investing in first class cricket and domestic cricket. This will mean they keep on producing elite players.

 

[rhony]

Get rid of a few dead woods. Once Dhawan is back they will be alright. But for Dhonis stupid non review India might have even won the game.

Dhoni has been terrible with reviews so far in the WC. Remember the Babar review?

 

[big_gamer007]

India should have started transition of middle order after 2015 but they did not. Now it will cost us world cup and after world cup hopefully we start the transition

 

[Musakhel]

No I think they will improve in the next few years as a team, as new talent is introduced, which shows how spoilt for choice they are considering they are always amongst the top 3 ODI teams.

 

[xbronze]

But how long are you going to depend on kohli, sharma and dhawan?
There all in their 30s.
The new guys don't look special, kl rahul, shankar etc.
Are gill and shaw the real deal or just hype jobs?

After watching the so hyped 'second coming of the Christ' aka Pant batting yesterday, as a disappointed India fan, I am confident Gill and Shaw are going to be no different.

Was my first time watching Pant, after reading all the hype and hoopla about him in the Indian press. Dude has his bat flying off his hands (and commentator informs that that is not unusual with him!). Next he himself falls down offering a shot, and almost falls down yet again in that short innings of his (commentator again covers up for him stating that this is but an expected feature of Pant's batting style).

Won't even talk about Pant's pathetic running between the wickets. Utterly clueless. Running helter skelter all over the place.

And this was the guy about whose magical cricketing abilities tomes were being written by our great Indian press. I couldnt believe my eyes.

Won't be surprised if Shaw and Gill go the same way. I will grant Gill one thing...the bloke is level headed and grounded. Shaw has a bit of an attitude, which could be his nemesis. Tends to behave as though he is already Sachin Tendulkar.

 

[BaankeJi]

If india win this world cup, people will laugh at this thread, but that will only be papering over the cracks!
Sachin, sehwag, yuvi and now dhoni are gone. India has been relying on 3 guys for ages, kohli, sharma and dhawan.
Wheres the new youngsters?
Kl rahul, pant, samson, gill, shaw?
What i've seen so far from these youngsters , hasn't impressed me!
So is this the beginning of the end of indian domination of odi cricket?

Yes. It was good as long as it lasted.
Farewell, domination!

 

[maqbool]

NO - system produces players; individuals are phased out with next batch.

Every generation, Indian system will produce contemporary best players. Yes, there are some individuals beyond generation - you don’t produce an Imran, Wasim, Tend’kar or Kohli in every generation, but somewhere it’ll be compensated within playing XI. But, overall there will be couple of batsmen among top few in world; same can be said for spin pair, WK, even pacer.

This is the reason only 8 teams has won soccer WC, despite it’s the main game for over 170 countries. Brazil, Germany, Italy, France, Argentina, Uruguay, Spain and few other countries produce top class players every generation - next Argentina No. 10 will again be someone special, French No. 6 will be best in his position, or Italian No. 3, German No. 1, Brazil’s No. 9 .... so on.

This is one of example I have given many times - my Indian 20 men squad (for 3 formats) will have (by debut)

1 from 50s (Mankad)
2 from 60s (BsB, GR Vishy)
3 from 70s (Gavaskar, Kapil, Kirmani)
3 from 80s (SRT, Azhar, Srinath)
5 from 90s (Kumble, Dravid, Ganguly, Sehwag, VVS)
6 from 00s & 10 (Zak, MS, Yuvraz, Ashwin, Kohli, Bumrah)

In last 9 years, 3 players have replaced weakest 3 from past - Ashwin, Kohli & Bumrah for Bhajji, Hazare, Subhas Gupte

If I take it to 19 years - MS has replaced Engineer, Yuvraz has replaced Shastri, Sehwag has replaced Vengsarkar ....., Ganguly has replaced Amarnath.

Bottom line is, Indian all-time 20 is getting stronger by phasing our players from past generations. That’s exactly the case for Australia, England, South Africa (this is temporary transition for them), even NZ. It was the case for WIN as well at one time - in 6 consecutive decades their middle order was built around Headley, Weekes, Sobers, Kanhai, Viv, Lara... their opening bowler was Wes Hall, Andy Roberts, Mike Holding, Malcolm Marshall, Curley Ambrose; their No. 1 opener was Frank Worell, Conrad Hunt, Roy Fredricks, GGrineedge .....

You do the same for PAK (or SRL, WIN) - signs are alarmingly depressing.

Wow, I never thought like this. You are right, when we think of all time greats for Pakistan, we cant even debate adding anyone (barring maybe Babar) to the all time great squad from the current team.

Whereas India has ROhit, Kohli, Bumrah, MSD, Shami... who are Indian ATG material in ODI's.

 

[Dingolfy]

Pakistan's future looks more brighter than India's if we compare young talent available in both countries.

How? Our U-19 won the last WC steamrolling everyone.

 

[Itachi]

Pakistan's future looks more brighter than India's if we compare young talent available in both countries.

You need to watch more U19 games then.

 

[MMHS]

Wow, I never thought like this. You are right, when we think of all time greats for Pakistan, we cant even debate adding anyone (barring maybe Babar) to the all time great squad from the current team.

Whereas India has ROhit, Kohli, Bumrah, MSD, Shami... who are Indian ATG material in ODI's.

In that PAK 20 of same, this is my team

2 from 1950s (Hanif, Fazal)
2 from 1960s (Mazid, Mushtaq)
5 from 1970s (Khan, Javed, Zaheer, Bari, Qadir)
4 from 1980s (Wasim, Saeed, Inzi, WY)
5 from 1990s (Saq, MoYo, Latif, A Razzak, Shoaib)
2 from last 2 decades (YK - debut in March 2000 and a Test specialist, Babar - now I should take him over Asif Iqbal, that too only for LO)

 

[PakLFC]

I see India remaining as one of the worlds top sides. There next generation will continue to produce world class players.

 

[jnaveen1980]

India is lucky to have atleast one great player to pass the baton to another one. Started with Sunny's debut, Sunny's career overlapped with Kapil dev. Kapil's career overlapped with Tendulkar, Tendulkar's career overlapped with several greats like Dravid, Laxman, Sehwag, Dhoni, Kohli, Kohli's career will overlap with Gill and other future batsmen. Transition is smoother. Any batsman who misses out in Indian system should regret badly.

 

[hasanali]

Problem with Pakistan is that kids aren’t playing in the streets anymore. The last ten years in particular have been dreadful in terms of players coming through.

 

[sweep_shot]

India will keep on winning until Kohli retires. India will probably stop being among top 3 after Kohli's retirement. Kohli is once in a generation player.

 

[ak619]

If india win this world cup, people will laugh at this thread, but that will only be papering over the cracks!
Sachin, sehwag, yuvi and now dhoni are gone. India has been relying on 3 guys for ages, kohli, sharma and dhawan.
Wheres the new youngsters?
Kl rahul, pant, samson, gill, shaw?
What i've seen so far from these youngsters , hasn't impressed me!
So is this the beginning of the end of indian domination of odi cricket?

You wish )

 

[iniqbal223]

Why? How? What you smoke man...

India have the best cricketing system in the world, and they are going strength by strength every day. They have already kicked the mindset of seniority, that is why barring MS , seniors like Yuvi, Ashwin, Raina, etc. are not in the team. Plus they dont have any parchhii players like Imam who plays for himself. Their system is clean, they funnel their talent much better than any other team in the cricketing world. They don't have domestic cricket mafia. They recognize talent. They don't oppose changes, instead they embrace it.

Even they might not win the world cup, but they can still form a team to compete at top level.

On the other hand , in our case, we rely on luck. We win games because of others team glaring mistakes (CT 2017), and hardly because our team has won on its own. We have domestic cricket mafia. We have media mafia. We have sifarishi system. Our CS put his interests ahead of the national team. We have most critical, non doer ex cricketers who still think they are the best, and others should be slaves in front of them. Our ex cricketers fools us. We don't accept change ( our coach banged his head for fitness, but who cares??). We criticize the chair (head coach, selectors, chairman, etc) whoever he is (whether he is doing his job good or not). Plus, we don't have any proper infrastructure. And most importantly, we have seniority culture. Hafeez bhai, Malik bhai all good even they score 0..

 

[MMHS]

Problem with Pakistan is that kids aren’t playing in the streets anymore. The last ten years in particular have been dreadful in terms of players coming through.

That's the least of the problems. Too many playing the game is never good thing from manageability, neither required. For a 23 crore country, even if 1% plays the game seriously makes a pool of 2.3 million - that's twice of WIN and half of NZs total population.

The problem is somewhere else - the common causes mentioned here in PP are just distractions.

Even isolation isn't the biggest issue - a nation completely shut down (not isolated) for 20 years, for whom only 3.5mn white minority used to play that game - still after 20 years, within a decade they produced Jaques Kallis, Allan Donald, Shaun Pollock, Graeme Smith, Gary Kristen, Daryal Callinun, Jonty Rhodes, Wessels Cronje, Lance Kluesnar, Herchall Gibbs, AB de Villiers, Dale Styen, Makhya N'tini, Hashim Amla, Faf de Plusis, Quintin de Kock, Vernon Phillanader, Kagisu Rabada .........

Start from somewhere else - like, the past glory was earned from borrowed money; it won't take longer for an U turn.

 

[RamLakhan]

Not sure whether our domination ends or begins, but I hope this is the end of mediocrity in Indian team (after this world cup!) I hope there will be no more passengers left in this team and all holes are covered so that the value of supreme talents (Kohli, Rohit, Dhawan, Bumrah, Kuldeep, Shami) is justified with at least decent players supporting them so that we win all matches (especially knockouts!)

 

[Mr.Q]

They don't have domestic cricket mafia. They recognize talent. They don't oppose changes, instead they embrace it.

There are actually some issues bro. But it’s masked by the massive amount of money at the board’s disposal and the very large number of players.

 

[NoBallZombie]

India will keep on winning until Kohli retires. India will probably stop being among top 3 after Kohli's retirement. Kohli is once in a generation player.

Thats what we thought wen Tendu was retiring and then they got Kohli.

 

[Captain caveman]

You wish )

Pride comes before a fall!

 

[aukhan]

Its safe to say they will dominate until Rohit and Kohli retires.

 

[Captain caveman]

Probably, as long as they retire at the right time, unlike dhoni, who has destroyed his legacy!

 

[Hasan123]

That's the least of the problems. Too many playing the game is never good thing from manageability, neither required. For a 23 crore country, even if 1% plays the game seriously makes a pool of 2.3 million - that's twice of WIN and half of NZs total population.

The problem is somewhere else - the common causes mentioned here in PP are just distractions.

Even isolation isn't the biggest issue - a nation completely shut down (not isolated) for 20 years, for whom only 3.5mn white minority used to play that game - still after 20 years, within a decade they produced Jaques Kallis, Allan Donald, Shaun Pollock, Graeme Smith, Gary Kristen, Daryal Callinun, Jonty Rhodes, Wessels Cronje, Lance Kluesnar, Herchall Gibbs, AB de Villiers, Dale Styen, Makhya N'tini, Hashim Amla, Faf de Plusis, Quintin de Kock, Vernon Phillanader, Kagisu Rabada .........

Start from somewhere else - like, the past glory was earned from borrowed money; it won't take longer for an U turn.

Since you mentioned South Africa, what do you think happened to them in this WC? What changes do you think they will make after the tournament? What direction do you think they will head in?

 

[Surya Kiran]

Great post...

nice analysis

 

[GrandMaster]

It's the beginning of the end for Dhoni, Kedar, Karthik & Shankar.
Kohli should do what Dhoni did to Sehwag, Gambhir and Yuvraj.

 

[Surya Kiran]

Why? How? What you smoke man...

India have the best cricketing system in the world, and they are going strength by strength every day. They have already kicked the mindset of seniority, that is why barring MS , seniors like Yuvi, Ashwin, Raina, etc. are not in the team. Plus they dont have any parchhii players like Imam who plays for himself. Their system is clean, they funnel their talent much better than any other team in the cricketing world. They don't have domestic cricket mafia. They recognize talent. They don't oppose changes, instead they embrace it.

Even they might not win the world cup, but they can still form a team to compete at top level.

On the other hand , in our case, we rely on luck. We win games because of others team glaring mistakes (CT 2017), and hardly because our team has won on its own. We have domestic cricket mafia. We have media mafia. We have sifarishi system. Our CS put his interests ahead of the national team. We have most critical, non doer ex cricketers who still think they are the best, and others should be slaves in front of them. Our ex cricketers fools us. We don't accept change ( our coach banged his head for fitness, but who cares??). We criticize the chair (head coach, selectors, chairman, etc) whoever he is (whether he is doing his job good or not). Plus, we don't have any proper infrastructure. And most importantly, we have seniority culture. Hafeez bhai, Malik bhai all good even they score 0..

good assessment

 

[Surya Kiran]

There are actually some issues bro. But it’s masked by the massive amount of money at the board’s disposal and the very large number of players.

Having money and large pool of players alone cannot guarantee success. England has been example of that in Football and in Cricket until 2010

 

[Surya Kiran]

No I think they will improve in the next few years as a team, as new talent is introduced, which shows how spoilt for choice they are considering they are always amongst the top 3 ODI teams.

Don't have to wait for long, right after this world cup, a very different squad will be selected for WI tour

 

[Surya Kiran]

I see India remaining as one of the worlds top sides. There next generation will continue to produce world class players.

Partly because of domestic structure and "A" tours

 

[Captain caveman]

I don't see any special indian batsman coming through the ranks such as sachin or kohli!
Gill and shaw are indias big hopes, lets see.
Kl rahul, pant etc are good players, but not world beaters, babar and haris are better than every indian bat except kohli and sharma. In fact i would go as far as saying
Babar + haris = kohli + sharma!
If fakhar uses his head, then i would say we have the better batsman!

 

[Surya Kiran]

India should have started transition of middle order after 2015 but they did not. Now it will cost us world cup and after world cup hopefully we start the transition

They did, that is why you don't see Raina in the middle oder anymore. They have gone with Kedar ad Shankar instead of Manish & Rayudu because of their bowling contributions

 

[Surya Kiran]

NO - system produces players; individuals are phased out with next batch.

Every generation, Indian system will produce contemporary best players. Yes, there are some individuals beyond generation - you don’t produce an Imran, Wasim, Tend’kar or Kohli in every generation, but somewhere it’ll be compensated within playing XI. But, overall there will be couple of batsmen among top few in world; same can be said for spin pair, WK, even pacer.

This is the reason only 8 teams has won soccer WC, despite it’s the main game for over 170 countries. Brazil, Germany, Italy, France, Argentina, Uruguay, Spain and few other countries produce top class players every generation - next Argentina No. 10 will again be someone special, French No. 6 will be best in his position, or Italian No. 3, German No. 1, Brazil’s No. 9 .... so on.

This is one of example I have given many times - my Indian 20 men squad (for 3 formats) will have (by debut)

1 from 50s (Mankad)
2 from 60s (BsB, GR Vishy)
3 from 70s (Gavaskar, Kapil, Kirmani)
3 from 80s (SRT, Azhar, Srinath)
5 from 90s (Kumble, Dravid, Ganguly, Sehwag, VVS)
6 from 00s & 10 (Zak, MS, Yuvraz, Ashwin, Kohli, Bumrah)

In last 9 years, 3 players have replaced weakest 3 from past - Ashwin, Kohli & Bumrah for Bhajji, Hazare, Subhas Gupte

If I take it to 19 years - MS has replaced Engineer, Yuvraz has replaced Shastri, Sehwag has replaced Vengsarkar ....., Ganguly has replaced Amarnath.

Bottom line is, Indian all-time 20 is getting stronger by phasing our players from past generations. That’s exactly the case for Australia, England, South Africa (this is temporary transition for them), even NZ. It was the case for WIN as well at one time - in 6 consecutive decades their middle order was built around Headley, Weekes, Sobers, Kanhai, Viv, Lara... their opening bowler was Wes Hall, Andy Roberts, Mike Holding, Malcolm Marshall, Curley Ambrose; their No. 1 opener was Frank Worell, Conrad Hunt, Roy Fredricks, GGrineedge .....

You do the same for PAK (or SRL, WIN) - signs are alarmingly depressing.

Great Analysis

 

[big_gamer007]

They did, that is why you don't see Raina in the middle oder anymore. They have gone with Kedar ad Shankar instead of Manish & Rayudu because of their bowling contributions

Kedar, Shankar, rayudu were never the options. Anyone who have watched cricket know they can't be good long term options. They are as mediocre as any.

Manish Pandey showed promise but didn't fulfil his potential so I can understand his part.

 

[Surya Kiran]

Kedar, Shankar, rayudu were never the options. Anyone who have watched cricket know they can't be good long term options. They are as mediocre as any.

Manish Pandey showed promise but didn't fulfil his potential so I can understand his part.

What were the other possible options for the middle order?

 

[xbronze]

I don't see any special indian batsman coming through the ranks such as sachin or kohli!
Gill and shaw are indias big hopes, lets see.
Kl rahul, pant etc are good players, but not world beaters, babar and haris are better than every indian bat except kohli and sharma. In fact i would go as far as saying
Babar + haris = kohli + sharma!
If fakhar uses his head, then i would say we have the better batsman!

WHAT?!!!! Babar + haris = kohli + sharma!
Really?

 

[fitCricFan]

WHAT?!!!! Babar + haris = kohli + sharma!
Really?

omg

 

[austerlitz]

After watching the so hyped 'second coming of the Christ' aka Pant batting yesterday, as a disappointed India fan, I am confident Gill and Shaw are going to be no different.

Was my first time watching Pant, after reading all the hype and hoopla about him in the Indian press. Dude has his bat flying off his hands (and commentator informs that that is not unusual with him!). Next he himself falls down offering a shot, and almost falls down yet again in that short innings of his (commentator again covers up for him stating that this is but an expected feature of Pant's batting style).

Won't even talk about Pant's pathetic running between the wickets. Utterly clueless. Running helter skelter all over the place.

And this was the guy about whose magical cricketing abilities tomes were being written by our great Indian press. I couldnt believe my eyes.

Won't be surprised if Shaw and Gill go the same way. I will grant Gill one thing...the bloke is level headed and grounded. Shaw has a bit of an attitude, which could be his nemesis. Tends to behave as though he is already Sachin Tendulkar.

Dhoni was a hack in 2005.Couldnt keep either.
Kohli was considered average in 2008-2011.No one ever gave him a chanec to come close to tendulkar.
Rohit was written off as *****.

Gill is a bonafide star in making.
Shaw will be sehwag like player,not tendu.
Pant will be a very nice strokeplayer lower down order.
Now we need riyan parag and abhishek sharma to step up.Both of those are 17or 18.
Mayank has 5-7 years still left,not sure about KL rahul.

 

[Mahee]

it's all over for india in this world cup...they will lose in the semis

 

[barah_admi]

If india win this world cup, people will laugh at this thread, but that will only be papering over the cracks!
Sachin, sehwag, yuvi and now dhoni are gone. India has been relying on 3 guys for ages, kohli, sharma and dhawan.
Wheres the new youngsters?
Kl rahul, pant, samson, gill, shaw?
What i've seen so far from these youngsters , hasn't impressed me!
So is this the beginning of the end of indian domination of odi cricket?

What domination?

They havent won world cup since 2011, they have lost to England in their bilateral series, lost to them in this tournament and havent been the best ODI side around for a while. This is not a dominating legacy. They have been very good but not dominated anything.

 

[hitthestump]

3 decent batsmen is a luxury when you have a bowling attack like India's.

(I cannot believe i just wrote that. And part of me thinks i better get used to it)

 

[MMHS]

Since you mentioned South Africa, what do you think happened to them in this WC? What changes do you think they will make after the tournament? What direction do you think they will head in?

I'll write something on SAF for 2023 WC from USA.... In short, now I can say -

1. They were caught in conformity pressure of seniority - had to carry few undeserving senior players, when replacements were available.
2. They are going through a systematic transition - it'll take few years
3. There are enough ready made players right now to form a very good team - just needs bold calls after WC
4. Their system still is too good to miss out - only thing they need is to integrate majority people in the game.
5. May not be in 2023, but I expect them to be again among top favorites by 2027.

 

[Hasan123]

I'll write something on SAF for 2023 WC from USA.... In short, now I can say -

1. They were caught in conformity pressure of seniority - had to carry few undeserving senior players, when replacements were available.
2. They are going through a systematic transition - it'll take few years
3. There are enough ready made players right now to form a very good team - just needs bold calls after WC
4. Their system still is too good to miss out - only thing they need is to integrate majority people in the game.
5. May not be in 2023, but I expect them to be again among top favorites by 2027.

Ok I will be interested to see a more depth analysis.

I agree they carried some older players , can I just ask which more deserving players you are referring to?

I also agree that South Africa will get through this transition.