Is Yasir Shah selectable on unhelpful surfaces?

[Junaids]

The older amongst us remember the disaster that was Abdul Qadir in Australia in 1983-84. The spearhead of the Pakistan attack took 12 wickets in 5 Tests at an average of 61.00.

But there are some warning signs that Yasir Shah might be a liability in certain conditions too.

I'm deadly serious here. I fully accept that in normal Aussie conditions a leg-spinner can do well. But cricket boards are quickly learning how to neutralise Yasir Shah.

Yasir Shah was terrific at Lords and The Oval last summer on pitches which were abrasive and assisted spin.

But in between, at Old Trafford and Edgbaston, England prepared slightly green wickets and lush green outfields to remove both spin and reverse swing from Pakistan's armoury.

And now New Zealand have produced a slightly greener wicket at Christchurch, with the same lush outfield to keep the ball shiny.

Here is Yasir Shah's complete record in those conditions:

54-6-213-1
1
9-0-53-0
10

27-3-64-1
7
43-4-172-2
7

4*
4-0-16-0
6*

In total:
4 wickets for 518 at an average of 129.5.

35 runs with the bat at an average of 8.75.

You can see where this leads.

After the disaster that was Abdul Qadir in Australia in 1983-84, should Yasir Shah only be selected Down Under on helpful tracks?

Would, indeed could, Mohammad Nawaz offer any less as a batsman or bowler on grassy surfaces?

Even, perish the thought, would Mohammad Hafeez offer more on grassy surfaces?

 

[Buffet]

So sample size is 3 tests?

 

[Rayyman]

Most spinners are liabilities in such conditions.

 

[Junaids]

So sample size is 3 tests?

My target is the Pink Ball Test at Brisbane - sample size 1.

My argument is this:

1) If its a grassless track, pick Yasir Shah as the ball will go soft and ragged very quickly.
2) If its a greentop like Adelaide 2015-16, under NO circumstances select Yasir Shah. He will barely bowl. Either pick an extra quick or an all-rounder.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

Not sure using an almost 35 year old example of Qadir to make such a case holds weight here.

You'll ruin Shah's rhythm and confidence if you start selecting him for 1 test, dropping him for the next, selecting him for the 3rd etc.

 

[Buffet]

For a pink ball on green top, just have pacers. No point in having spinners. They hardly bowl. Here he bowled 4 overs so far in this match.

Pakistan can try him right now because bowling him when you need only 30 runs to win will be meaningless.

 

[kingusama92]

One of the NZ commentators made a good point yesterday.

You have to select bowlers for all scenarios a test match could present. You don't want to be left out in the cold because the pitch starts turning and you don't have your best spinner in the side.

While the commentator was talking about Wahab Riaz and his reverse swing, I believe the point holds for Yasir Shah too.

 

[Junaids]

Are Aamer Yamin and Hammad Azam worse than Colin de Grandhomme?

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Are Aamer Yamin and Hammad Azam worse than Colin de Grandhomme?

Yes both.

 

[Pakprideuk]

Are Aamer Yamin and Hammad Azam worse than Colin de Grandhomme?

Theyre a few kph slower around the 122kph mark and also inaccurate whereas grandhomme is 125-129kph and very accurate with the ability to swing the ball.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Nawaz will never ever be able to challenge Yasir's place in playing eleven.

Only Asghar,Usama or Irfan having dream seasons could replace him on surfaces which do not assist Yasir in getting lbw's.

Currently no spinner is even having even a decent season.

 

[za1ntc]

Theyre a few kph slower around the 122kph mark and also inaccurate whereas grandhomme is 125-129kph and very accurate with the ability to swing the ball.

Hammad azam is yes, he bowls aroud the 118-122kph mark, but please do not compare him with Aamer Yamin, this kid bowls 135-140kph, at least he did last time he played for Pakistan.

 

[KingKhanWC]

It's a fair point. Yasir shouldn't have been selected for this first test, a green track and only 4 days play was more than enough to pick Wahab over him. As soon as Yasir came on in the Kiwi first innings the game started to go away from Pakistan.

 

[PakLFC]

We seem to pick Yasir irrespective of bowling conditions. If the pitch doesn't take spin then leave him out. No harm in going in with four pacers if that is what's required. The old West Indies team always did that everywhere. Before someone has a go at me I am not implying our current pacers are in the same league of a Marshall or Holding etc.

 

[Junaids]

Nawaz will never ever be able to challenge Yasir's place in playing eleven.

Only Asghar,Usama or Irfan having dream seasons could replace him on surfaces which do not assist Yasir in getting lbw's.

Currently no spinner is even having even a decent season.

With respect, my point is that on green tracks maybe you either don't pick a spinner, or you select him for his batting.

I'd guess that Mohammad Nawaz or even Zafar Gohar might have scored 40 more runs in this match from Number 8.

 

[Abdullah719]

Waqar saying on commentary that Pakistan might look to play a fourth seamer instead of Yasir if the pitch at Hamilton is similar to this one. Worth contemplating.

 

[EliteCynical]

Waqar saying on commentary that Pakistan might look to play a fourth seamer instead of Yasir if the pitch at Hamilton is similar to this one. Worth contemplating.

Is that his opinion or has someone from management told him? If it is his personal view, then i reckon it is an un-resarched comment. Hamilton traditionally assists spinners and Ian Smith just confirmed that on air.

A quick look tells me Vettori has 40 odd wickets in 13 matches at 35. Next best is Bhajji who has 10 in 2 at 18. Pakistan should select Yasir IMO. Except Williamson, their entire team is suspect against spin.

 

[EliteCynical]

Yasir shah could be an unselectable option in Australia, which traditionally has been a graveyard for spinners, however, the stage that Aus are in currently, i think Yasir should be an automatic choice.

PLUS - Don't forget the small matter of over rate. These days teams struggle to maintain the over rate, which may prove hazardous to Misbah. He would need a spinner who can run through his overs (Not Azhar please)

 

[Abdullah719]

Is that his opinion or has someone from management told him? If it is his personal view, then i reckon it is an un-resarched comment. Hamilton traditionally assists spinners and Ian Smith just confirmed that on air.

A quick look tells me Vettori has 40 odd wickets in 13 matches at 35. Next best is Bhajji who has 10 in 2 at 18. Pakistan should select Yasir IMO. Except Williamson, their entire team is suspect against spin.

I didn't listen too closely but there was some discussion that the pitch will be similar to this one and spinners have been a non-entity so far in this game.

 

[EliteCynical]

I didn't listen too closely but there was some discussion that the pitch will be similar to this one and spinners have been a non-entity so far in this game.

Spinners have been a non entity because of the nature of the pitch and conditions. I am 100% sure had PAkistan ground out another 150 runs from somewhere, YAsir could have exploited the foot marks. Anyhow, i see your point that if the pitch would remain similar in the next test, then Yasir could be dropped. I think that is a BIG call coz with 3 left arm seamers, the attack would be too one-dimensional and also over rate would get impacted.

Aus would never drop Warne irrespective of the conditions (the only time he was dropped was in WI for McGill)

 

[Rayyman]

It will be either Rahat, Yasir or Imran as 4th bowler in the next match. Wahab is a lock in Hamilton.

 

[troodon]

The pitch was not made for spinners. Not Yasir's fault that he went wicket less.

Dropping Yasir for Wahab or some other bowler will not do good for Yasir's confidence. Yasir is a key piece for Pak to perform well in Aus.

 

[Ellipsism]

It will be either Rahat, Yasir or Imran as 4th bowler in the next match. Wahab is a lock in Hamilton.

What makes you think Wahab is a lock?

 

[Rayyman]

What makes you think Wahab is a lock?

He got a 5fer in his last game. He was dropped because it was a green pitch. Hamilton is usually green for the first couple days before it goes flat for the last three. His batting is usually better than Rahat's as well.

 

[salih]

Yasir didn't bowl too badly in the 2nd innings today. He didn't bowl enough overs in the 1st innings (which I though was a mistake seeing that while the seamers were getting purchase off the wicket, they were leaking too many runs when you consider the total made in the 1st innings. Yasir also gets into his groove after about 8-9 overs, after which he picks up wickets in clusters). He bowled well in 2 games in England, on surfaces that were not spinner-friendly. I feel that legspinners (especially quality ones like Shah) will do well anywhere.

Pick him in all games and he'll generally do well either holding up an end, or testing the techniques of non-asian batsmen against good spin.

 

[street cricketer]

Yeah, that would do a world of good for his rhythm and confidence, picking and dropping after a match and picking again after 3 or 4 matches. That was what the clever heads at the BCCI did with Ashwin when India toured overseas. Picked at Durban where he failed. Dropped for the next match and the entire series in NZ, was picked only for the last 2 matches in England after India started getting demolished and again dropped for the Adelaide test for freaking Karn Sharma (who isn't much different to Nawaz).

Any bowler needs a rhythm to be effective and spin bowlers especially need that. Picking and dropping in alien conditions when they tour for the first time will not really do a great deal in helping their game development and confidence. Spinners have had a good record at Hamilton. You don't want to drop him unless it's a complete greentop.

 

[joly]

Your worry should be your dibbly dobblers who could do nothing on a helpful wicket, Yasir is class,poor guy won you matches single handedly in so many occasions

 

[Bilal7]

Yes, he is because unlike some of the overhyped spinners out there, Shah can actually do well in alien conditions and has shown as much. No one should be pointing any fingers at our bowlers for this defeat, the batsmen let down the team big time and nothing less than an attack of Marshall, Imran, Hadlee, Wasim and Warne would have salvaged anything from this match.

 

[Mainul]

Yasir might be ineffective in the whole tour of Australia and New Zealand.He is not yet that skillfull like Warne to become successful in every condition.

But Pakistan don't have any pace bowling all rounder to replace him which they should have.So better to play another pacer and bowl some leg spin by Azhar.

 

[The_Odd_One]

The question is can 4 pacers take that much load? Barring this test, Yasir has been bowling 30% of the overs mostly.

This said, it won't be a bad decision if he is dropped because pitch has nothing for him.

 

[Zak_Fan]

He has been badly exposed in flat alien conditions so far, but let's keep our hopes alive. Give him 3 more Tests and we will have a better idea.

 

[Mamoon]

The fans and the management need to stop treating him like he's the second coming of Warne.

As he showed in England, he's not good enough overseas. He's a quality spinner but he's not outstanding. He's on par with Ashwin who was also exposed in the first Test vs England on a pitch that didn't suit him.

The Lord's and Oval pitch last summer had enough assistance for good spinners like Yasir and Ashwin to succeed, but they aren't good enough to do well on Old Trafford, Edgbaston type pitches.

If you think he's good enough to excel on surfaces that don't aid him, you are overrating him.

As far as dropping him is concerned, again, that is not feasible because he's the only bowler we have who is not mediocre and is rather good, so we cannot afford to drop him even if there's no assistance for him.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

The fans and the management need to stop treating him like he's the second coming of Warne.

As he showed in England, he's not good enough overseas. He's a quality spinner but he's not outstanding. He's on par with Ashwin who was also exposed in the first Test vs England on a pitch that didn't suit him.

The Lord's and Oval pitch last summer had enough assistance for good spinners like Yasir and Ashwin to succeed, but they aren't good enough to do well on Old Trafford, Edgbaston type pitches.

If you think he's good enough to excel on surfaces that don't aid him, you are overrating him.

As far as dropping him is concerned, again, that is not feasible because he's the only bowler we have who is not mediocre and is rather good, so we cannot afford to drop him even if there's no assistance for him.

So Root and Kohli can fail on tougher pitches for a long time and they will make a comeback?

But Yasir and Ash fail for a few matches and they can't comeback?

Name 1 knock by Root on a track which aided spin properly?

Just 1 knock......

He FTBed for that 100 on a flat track. So now Root is exposed cos he hasn't proven himself yet?

But 2 days back, you said he will prove himself but that same courtesy isn't extended to the spinners of both sides.

May I know why?

---

Anderson in his early career was rubbish on tougher tracks. Didn't he comeback?

Kumble learnt to bowl overseas in the 2nd part of his career. Was he exposed too?

You name a spinner and I will list out atleast 10 horror show performances by him on tough pitches. Any spinner?

Spinners are NOT like pacers and batsmen. Can't be judged in the same way. Here we are judging them even more harshly.

A batsman will ALWAYS get a flat track or a semi flat track or an easy period of play in every country to score. Pacers can always break through or get a pitch where they can do something atleast. On a crumbling pitch, pacers have WAY more assistance than spinners have on green seamers (there its none).

Maybe Yasir and Ash are not good enough (they have their weakness) but what's the point in over-analyzing everything?

Let me know reg your viewpoint about why you show leniency towards Root and Kohli but not the spinners when its known beyond a shadow of doubt that spinners succeeding everywhere is rare?

 

[Mamoon]

^ I already established that they are very good spinners.That is high enough praise for me.

They are the two best spinners around but they are not ATG material like Warne and Muralitharan (let's ignore chucking for now).

Some people treat them like royalty, but both have been exposed outside their comfort zone.

I understand your point regarding batsmen and pacers, but I don't think that I am over-criticizing Yasir and Ashwin.

All I am saying is that they are not as good as their fans think.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

^ I already established that they are very good spinners.That is high enough praise for me.

They are the two best spinners around but they are not ATG material like Warne and Muralitharan (let's ignore chucking for now).

Some people treat them like royalty, but both have been exposed outside their comfort zone.

I understand your point regarding batsmen and pacers, but I don't think that I am over-criticizing Yasir and Ashwin.

All I am saying is that they are not as good as their fans think.

Ok...fair enough.

 

[Junaids]

The fans and the management need to stop treating him like he's the second coming of Warne.

As he showed in England, he's not good enough overseas. He's a quality spinner but he's not outstanding. He's on par with Ashwin who was also exposed in the first Test vs England on a pitch that didn't suit him.

The Lord's and Oval pitch last summer had enough assistance for good spinners like Yasir and Ashwin to succeed, but they aren't good enough to do well on Old Trafford, Edgbaston type pitches.

If you think he's good enough to excel on surfaces that don't aid him, you are overrating him.

As far as dropping him is concerned, again, that is not feasible because he's the only bowler we have who is not mediocre and is rather good, so we cannot afford to drop him even if there's no assistance for him.

I don't understand your conclusions.

Yasir Shah is a very fine leg-spinner, but one whom we have recently seen three times as inept on green or grassy surfaces.

In contrast, while Pakistan lacks a superstar pace bowler they actually have a very efficient fast-medium bowling unit

It strikes me that the selectors just need to assess each pitch before each match, and if it's clear that it's like Old Trafford / Edgbaston / Christchurch they just need to leave Yasir Shah out of the starting eleven.

 

[Hamza_]

Should drop Yasir.

 

[Mamoon]

I don't understand your conclusions.

Yasir Shah is a very fine leg-spinner, but one whom we have recently seen three times as inept on green or grassy surfaces.

In contrast, while Pakistan lacks a superstar pace bowler they actually have a very efficient fast-medium bowling unit

It strikes me that the selectors just need to assess each pitch before each match, and if it's clear that it's like Old Trafford / Edgbaston / Christchurch they just need to leave Yasir Shah out of the starting eleven.

I'm not sure about the efficiency of the fast-medium bowling unit. I just saw them get emphatically out-bowled on a green pitch.

I will not call them 'efficient', but they are useful only when the ball starts to reverse and when the ball does not reverse and Yasir is stifled, we take the beating of our lives. It happened at Old Trafford as well.

Yasir's performance, albeit poor, was inconsequential in this match. A fourth seamer wouldn't have made any difference to the result.

Pakistan badly needs bowlers who can swing the new ball and doesn't waste it time and time again.

 

[Mamoon]

Should drop Yasir.

If he is dropped, he will be replaced by another bowler who can't move the ball an inch unless there is reverse-swing. It will not help.

 

[Pantani]

I think the main concern here is economy. If there's nothing there for the spinner, then what you expect from him is to do a job for you, hold up an end, keep it tight and rotate the quicks from the other end. Is Yasir capable of doing that job, or is he like a traditional legspinner who bowls pressure-releasing boundary balls?

Even on a greentop it's worth picking a spinner because it might just spin later on. But what is crucial is that even though he may not be in the game as a wicket taker on days 1, 2 and 3, the spinner can play a solid defensive role. If he can't and if there's nobody else who fits the bill then going in with four fast bowlers should be seriously considered.

 

[Pantani]

^ I already established that they are very good spinners.That is high enough praise for me.

They are the two best spinners around but they are not ATG material like Warne and Muralitharan (let's ignore chucking for now).

Some people treat them like royalty, but both have been exposed outside their comfort zone.

I understand your point regarding batsmen and pacers, but I don't think that I am over-criticizing Yasir and Ashwin.

All I am saying is that they are not as good as their fans think.

Good post. I don't think they're any better than Swann - Herath - Ajmal were a few years ago, and cricket fans recognised they were a cut below Warne and Murali, perhaps because the ATG spinners were still fresh in our memory.

 

[Hasan123]

He shouldn't be dropped

 

[Rayyman]

He shouldn't be dropped

Yup. Hamilton usually spins. Narine took a 6-fer last time. Abdur Rehman won MOM in our last game over there. Ian Smith said that it would spin on Day 4 and 5.

 

[Jan Sher]

Yes both.

Lol, Hammad Azam is better, has height advantage, he would have destroyed NZ on this green track.

 

[Jan Sher]

You don't drop your best bowler, come what may, such cold tactics won't help.

He wasn't tested enough in the firs Test. He bowled 4 in one innings and 10 in the other, so not a huge sample to judge him.

As far as his past performances are concerned, Lords Test against England didn't offer him any help in the first innings, yet he got a five wicket haul.

I wouldn't even think about dropping him, as a Test match pitch can change anytime, or you can't rule out the possibility of him clicking.

So, my answer to your question is YES!

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Lol, Hammad Azam is better, has height advantage, he would have destroyed NZ on this green track.

Sorry, I do not agree 112-125kph.

 

[Jan Sher]

Sorry, I do not agree 112-125kph.

de Grandhomme bowled in the same range, yet he got wickets, just because the conditions suited his style of bowling. Hammad Azam is also a seam bowler, check his FC bowling average, he is way better than de Grandhomme, he would have been more deadly than de Grandhomme on this green track.

 

[Hasan123]

Yup. Hamilton usually spins. Narine took a 6-fer last time. Abdur Rehman won MOM in our last game over there. Ian Smith said that it would spin on Day 4 and 5.

If we score runs it brings Yasir more into the game.

 

[ShoonyaSifar]

Funny OP.

Spinner fails in a 2 day test match on a seaming pitch, blame the leggie who bowled a total of 11 overs!

BTW OP didn't you say on day 2 that pitch had flattened out after 50 overs of Pakistan innings? Must have been a huge LOL moment for you when Azhar Ali called it the most seam friendly pitch he's played on.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

No need to drop him even if he doesn't get many wickets. He should play all the matches away from home.

 

[Ellipsism]

He got a 5fer in his last game. He was dropped because it was a green pitch. Hamilton is usually green for the first couple days before it goes flat for the last three. His batting is usually better than Rahat's as well.

All NZ pitches are green for the first couple of days.

 

[Ellipsism]

de Grandhomme bowled in the same range, yet he got wickets, just because the conditions suited his style of bowling. Hammad Azam is also a seam bowler, check his FC bowling average, he is way better than de Grandhomme, he would have been more deadly than de Grandhomme on this green track.

If you understood Pakistan cricket then you would know that statistics are nothing more than an illusion.

 

[Waqarkhan]

They shouldn't have played yasir shah on this type of wicket in a 4 day game i think it was a mistake

 

[Abid Z]

With respect, my point is that on green tracks maybe you either don't pick a spinner, or you select him for his batting.

I'd guess that Mohammad Nawaz or even Zafar Gohar might have scored 40 more runs in this match from Number 8.

You pick your best bowlers. Period. Yasir is by far Pakistans main, dare I say only weapon and Australia are probably right now the worst of the top teams against spin. Yasir should be selected regardless of Brisbane being a fast green wicket.

However, the reason for warne/McGill being more effective in Australia than qadir/Mushy is because of warnes relentless accuracy on leg stump with a good flipper and the pressure created from the other end. This is where the game will be lost for Pakistan I think I.e the lack of a tall and accurate seamer that can tie up an end.

 

[Junaids]

Funny OP.

Spinner fails in a 2 day test match on a seaming pitch, blame the leggie who bowled a total of 11 overs!

BTW OP didn't you say on day 2 that pitch had flattened out after 50 overs of Pakistan innings? Must have been a huge LOL moment for you when Azhar Ali called it the most seam friendly pitch he's played on.

I wrote in the pre-match thread that now that the Test was reduced to 4 days there was no point selecting Yasir Shah, because he'd barely get a bowl.

I was right.

I lived in NZ for 4 years. Late summer pitches can and do take spin, in February and March.

Spring pitches are soft and greenish. They don't spin, and spinners become a waste of a position.

 

[Jan Sher]

If you understood Pakistan cricket then you would know that statistics are nothing more than an illusion.

No, statistics are not an illusion, it is a standard for selection.

 

[Junaids]

Thank goodness they learned from Yasir's difficulty at Old Trafford, Edgbaston and Christchurch.