Islam/Hinduism/Sikhism- Which of these religion can easily assimilate with Western civilization?

[Major]

[MENTION=48620]Cpt. Rishwat[/MENTION] and [MENTION=29115]RexRex[/MENTION] were discussing in other thread where it was pointed out that Sikhs and Hindus can easily assimilate to western culture with reason being given that they probably look at western values as superior to their own.

While muslims dont assimilate that easily and could be the reason why Islamophobia exists?

Hinduphobia and Sikhophobia dont really exist, while Islamophobia does. Is the reason behind this that Muslims dont easily integrate in such society?


One thing is certain, Muslims dont identify Islam as religion but as a code of life, which can be cause of rift when integrating

 

[Technics 1210]

So easy.

Sikhism and Hinduism are not part of the Abrahamic lineage, whereas Islam is.

Since the West is controlled by the JC alliance, Islam will always be a target, especially given the Dome of the Rock. This is where the messiah will return, the bedrock of the JC alliance.

As such Islamic nations will be a target, by the JC, and Muslims will react over time, thus Islamopbobia will rise.

By the way, none of the Religions mentioned would assimilate in the West. Not a single one.

 

[sweep_shot]

Assimilating with western civilization. What do you mean?

There are many different cultures in the west. There are Mormons, Amish, and ultraorthodox Jews who live very differently than other westerners. There are Native Americans who live in their own ways. Muslims have their own ways.

There is no single way of living in the west. It has become a melting pot of different cultures.

 

[Ahmad-GERMANFC]

Every Hindu I’ve met also says Hinduism is not a religion but a code of life so your last paragraph itself is contradictory.

Anyways it depends what you mean by integration. I don’t see it as integration. What I see is being afraid to assert own identity. If you ask for nothing, keep your head down and generally have a timid midsdemeanor then no majority community will have any issue with you because you are not really ‘visible’ in day to day life and just live in the background. This is what Hindus do for example. And sure if you want to call it integration then good for you but that’s not what it is.

Adherents of Indian dharmic faiths like Hinduism or Jainism generally do not want to upset the apple cart and ask for representation in terms of places of worship or identity. If there’s anything they want which slightly will go against the majority’s wishes they will just let it go and keep their head down. On the other hand Muslims or even Jews in the past do not do it the same way. They will want to change the status quo and as citizens of a country they have the right to do so. And as a result there will be things said about them.

An example is from my secondary school in Germany. Probably the number of Indian origin Hindus was similar to the Muslims of Turkish and Arab descent. Our school had some event about all the main Muslim festivals but I only remember Diwali happening one year and that too at the end. But if your definition of integration is the Hindus not celebrating their festival or having any cultural event in school , then I definitely don’t want such integration.

Real integration would be where the majority population knows and respects your festival and vice versa. You hang out together and learn from each other. Integration wouldn’t be putting your head down and follow whatever the white man says but still have all your friends be Indians.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Muslims do integrate in western society for the most part. For assimilation, I guess Hinduism wins out.

 

[sweep_shot]

I believe Islam can assimilate with Christianity and Judaism better than Hinduism or Sikhism.

Christians, Jews, and Muslims lived side by side for hundreds of years in the Middle East before Israel happened.

The thing with modern day west is that it has become radically secular (no longer proper Christian states). Hindus and Sikhs don't seem very practicing; they are more like cultural Hindus and cultural Sikhs. So, they can gel well with secular west.

 

[Major]

Every Hindu I’ve met also says Hinduism is not a religion but a code of life so your last paragraph itself is contradictory.

Anyways it depends what you mean by integration. I don’t see it as integration. What I see is being afraid to assert own identity. If you ask for nothing, keep your head down and generally have a timid midsdemeanor then no majority community will have any issue with you because you are not really ‘visible’ in day to day life and just live in the background. This is what Hindus do for example. And sure if you want to call it integration then good for you but that’s not what it is.

Adherents of Indian dharmic faiths like Hinduism or Jainism generally do not want to upset the apple cart and ask for representation in terms of places of worship or identity. If there’s anything they want which slightly will go against the majority’s wishes they will just let it go and keep their head down. On the other hand Muslims or even Jews in the past do not do it the same way. They will want to change the status quo and as citizens of a country they have the right to do so. And as a result there will be things said about them.

An example is from my secondary school in Germany. Probably the number of Indian origin Hindus was similar to the Muslims of Turkish and Arab descent. Our school had some event about all the main Muslim festivals but I only remember Diwali happening one year and that too at the end. But if your definition of integration is the Hindus not celebrating their festival or having any cultural event in school , then I definitely don’t want such integration.

Real integration would be where the majority population knows and respects your festival and vice versa. You hang out together and learn from each other. Integration wouldn’t be putting your head down and follow whatever the white man says but still have all your friends be Indians.

You went on posting how people of hindu religion are basically yes man than talked about festivals.

In canada, where alot of hindis lived their festivals were celebrated at school, muslims festivals not so much in brampton. So thats that.

 

[Major]

I believe Islam can assimilate with Christianity and Judaism better than Hinduism or Sikhism.

Christians, Jews, and Muslims lived side by side for hundreds of years in the Middle East (before Israel happened).

The thing with modern day west is that it has become radically secular. Hindus and Sikhs don't seem very practicing; they are more like cultural Hindus and cultural Sikhs. So, they can gel well with secular west.

But with western fos and muslims respect for religious figures, than can they assimilate together?

 

[Major]

Assimilating with western civilization. What do you mean?

There are many different cultures in the west. There are Mormons, Amish, and ultraorthodox Jews who live very differently than other westerners. There are Native Americans who live in their own ways. Muslims have their own ways.

There is no single way of living in the west. It has become a melting pot of different cultures.

When you assume the behaviors and values of another group

 

[sweep_shot]

When you assume the behaviors and values of another group

When you mean assimilation, do you mean we copy exactly as them?

So, if westerners drink alcohol and sleep around with women, should Muslims do the same? That's not assimilation. That's subservience and even inferiority complex.

I believe as long as a citizen is law-abiding and productive, assimilation is not necessary. Even those who were born in the west have different ways of doing things (Mormons, Amish, ultraorthodox Jews, cultural Christians etc.).

 

[Major]

When you mean assimilation, do you mean we copy exactly as them?

So, if westerners drink alcohol and sleep around with women, should Muslims do the same? That's not assimilation. That's subservience and even inferiority complex.

I believe as long as a citizen is law-abiding and productive, assimilation is not necessary. Even those who were born in the west have different ways of doing things (Mormons, Amish, ultraorthodox Jews, cultural Christians etc.).

Alcahaol and sleeping around are western values?

Values as in equality, FOs, individualism

Im surprised that you living in canada believe that western values are basically sleeping around

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Alcahaol and sleeping around are western values?

Values as in equality, FOs, individualism

Im surprised that you living in canada believe that western values are basically sleeping around

Alcoholism and sleeping around are also part of western values. Not basic as you are implying but part of.

 

[sweep_shot]

Alcahaol and sleeping around are western values?

Values as in equality, FOs, individualism

Im surprised that you living in canada believe that western values are basically sleeping around

There's nothing wrong with individualism. That's compatible with Islam.

I myself love individualism as I am an introvert.

What's FO?

 

[moghul]

[MENTION=48620]Cpt. Rishwat[/MENTION] and [MENTION=29115]RexRex[/MENTION] were discussing in other thread where it was pointed out that Sikhs and Hindus can easily assimilate to western culture with reason being given that they probably look at western values as superior to their own.

While muslims dont assimilate that easily and could be the reason why Islamophobia exists?

Hinduphobia and Sikhophobia dont really exist, while Islamophobia does. Is the reason behind this that Muslims dont easily integrate in such society?


One thing is certain, Muslims dont identify Islam as religion but as a code of life, which can be cause of rift when integrating

good post , interesting topic .

 

[Ahmad-GERMANFC]

You went on posting how people of hindu religion are basically yes man than talked about festivals.

In canada, where alot of hindis lived their festivals were celebrated at school, muslims festivals not so much in brampton. So thats that.

Festivals is an example.

Places of worship is another. I’ve seen areas where Hindus far outnumber Muslims but the mosques far outnumber temples because Hindu community didn’t want to go through the whole county legislature and have a public debate where it could possibly be target

 

[Rana]

If followed truly to its core….

None of them.

 

[NishanKonar]

Depends on level of education and job employment

Any educated society will integrate much better with Western society. The reason Hindus / Sikhs integrate better with Western societies is their higher level of education. It enables them to get ebtter jobs and more easily accepted into white collar circles

Same reason US based Pakistanis are far better integrated than British Pakistanis. The average Pakistani American is better educated and more likely to be engineer / doctor lawyer unlike his British Pakistani counterpart who are less educated and more likely to be blue collar workers

 

[NishanKonar]

Every Hindu I’ve met also says Hinduism is not a religion but a code of life so your last paragraph itself is contradictory.

Anyways it depends what you mean by integration. I don’t see it as integration. What I see is being afraid to assert own identity. If you ask for nothing, keep your head down and generally have a timid midsdemeanor then no majority community will have any issue with you because you are not really ‘visible’ in day to day life and just live in the background. This is what Hindus do for example. And sure if you want to call it integration then good for you but that’s not what it is.

Adherents of Indian dharmic faiths like Hinduism or Jainism generally do not want to upset the apple cart and ask for representation in terms of places of worship or identity. If there’s anything they want which slightly will go against the majority’s wishes they will just let it go and keep their head down. On the other hand Muslims or even Jews in the past do not do it the same way. They will want to change the status quo and as citizens of a country they have the right to do so. And as a result there will be things said about them.

An example is from my secondary school in Germany. Probably the number of Indian origin Hindus was similar to the Muslims of Turkish and Arab descent. Our school had some event about all the main Muslim festivals but I only remember Diwali happening one year and that too at the end. But if your definition of integration is the Hindus not celebrating their festival or having any cultural event in school , then I definitely don’t want such integration.

Real integration would be where the majority population knows and respects your festival and vice versa. You hang out together and learn from each other. Integration wouldn’t be putting your head down and follow whatever the white man says but still have all your friends be Indians.

Most US cities now have big celebrations of Holi , DIwali , Dusshera. Most US university campuses have special events for the religious festivities. Most US politicians hold events on Holi & Diwali. There are Hindus temples in almost every US city. There are ISKCON centers all over USA. Even Hindu saints like Sri Sri Ravishankar and Sadhguru have large fan following in USA. Several prominent celebrities like Tom Brady / Julia Roberts openly worship Hindu idols. Yoga day is now a massive event in the USA. Visit New York or San Francisco on Yoga Day - u can see for urself . How much more representation do Hindus need ?

There is chap called Rishi Sunak - now fighting to be next British PM. He openly embraces his Hindu faith and took oath on Bhagvad Gita. Its the same with many US politicians like Tulsi Gabbard , Ro Khanna , Raja Krishnamoorthy among others.

I can understand the situation in Germany. There are barely any Hindus in Germany compared to the massive Turkish diaspora. Germany is not a country where u find many Indians. Only in recent times Indians have started moving to Germany. Give us 20 years = there will be significant Hindu diaspora in Germany and u will see Hindu festivities in German universities. Along with prominent Hindus in German govt and corporates

Give u an example - in my college UT Austin there re big events on Diwali and Holi as there are loads of Hinuds on campus but nothing much on EID or Muharram bcoz there are barely any Muslims on campus

 

[NishanKonar]

You went on posting how people of hindu religion are basically yes man than talked about festivals.

In canada, where alot of hindis lived their festivals were celebrated at school, muslims festivals not so much in brampton. So thats that.

This is so true. Its all about numbers

In Germany there are hardly any Hindus. How on earth will they organise big celebrations

I live in Austin nd hardly see anything on Moharram ( happened last week ) or EID bcoz there are fewer Muslims in this location. While Hindus host big celebrations on Navratri and Diwali and even for smaller events. Only last week there was a massive ISCKON event . The reason being Hindus have big numbers in Texas ( Austin / Houston / Dallas / San Antonio )

 

[NishanKonar]

Festivals is an example.

Places of worship is another. I’ve seen areas where Hindus far outnumber Muslims but the mosques far outnumber temples because Hindu community didn’t want to go through the whole county legislature and have a public debate where it could possibly be target

The reason is Hindus dont have concept of congregational prayer unlike Muslims. This is fundamental difference in style of worship between Hindus and Muslims

Most Hindu homes have a small temple inside their homes where we put our idols and worship every day. We don't need to go to temple every week. We can perform all our religious rituals and ceremonies inside our home. That's why building temples is not that big a priority for Hindus unlike Muslims

 

[GreenBee]

A Muslim's world usually revolves around religion creating more friction points with other cultures. Like someone mentioned, Sikhs and Hindus are barely practicing in their home country, so it's kind of hopeless to expect them making a big deal out of religion in the West.

 

[Tera Gawaandi]

Hindus and Sikhs you come across abroad are top of the cream. They are more educated, less patriotic etc. They are not true representation. You have to spend time in India to reach any conclusion.

Short answer is NO, these religions are not more likely to assimilate in comparison to Islam. Only time Muslims cross the line is when they do not tolerate infidels or try to convert others. They have all the right to feel superior, to believe their God is real God.

Sikhism even though is always grouped among Dharmic religions but it's actually a monotheistic faith. Sikh holy scripture clearly mandates to have faith in one Supreme God instead of 8.4 million deities. In this aspect, Sikhism is more closer to Abrahamic faiths.

 

[AamchiMumbaikar]

That is because we do not showcase religion much, you can call it inferiority complex/ bowing down/ not valuing your own culture but that's how we have always been, that is how I guess we survived the Mughal era, else whole country would have been Islamised long back.

 

[dildilpak]

The reason is Hindus dont have concept of congregational prayer unlike Muslims. This is fundamental difference in style of worship between Hindus and Muslims

Most Hindu homes have a small temple inside their homes where we put our idols and worship every day. We don't need to go to temple every week. We can perform all our religious rituals and ceremonies inside our home. That's why building temples is not that big a priority for Hindus unlike Muslims

I totally concur with this explanation- Hindus dont wear their religion on their sleeve unlike Muslims. For us, Islam is a way of life & inflexible unlike Hindus who i believe dont invoke their Gods in everything. From what i have seen, Hindus are more flexible as there is no code of conduct for their behaviour & there is nothing to hold them accountable. Plus, India itself is way more progressive than Pakistan - when i go to Mumbai or Bangalore on a business trip, it is not uncommon for co-workers (including women) to be in a pub or bar for after-work socializing like in NYC or London. So generally i find, Indians are way less religious & can adapt quickly to the West.

 

[Ahmad-GERMANFC]

That is because we do not showcase religion much, you can call it inferiority complex/ bowing down/ not valuing your own culture but that's how we have always been, that is how I guess we survived the Mughal era, else whole country would have been Islamised long back.

This is a good point. As I said you become target and more likely to be in the eyes of others if you showcase it

 

[NishanKonar]

I totally concur with this explanation- Hindus dont wear their religion on their sleeve unlike Muslims. For us, Islam is a way of life & inflexible unlike Hindus who i believe dont invoke their Gods in everything. From what i have seen, Hindus are more flexible as there is no code of conduct for their behaviour & there is nothing to hold them accountable. Plus, India itself is way more progressive than Pakistan - when i go to Mumbai or Bangalore on a business trip, it is not uncommon for co-workers (including women) to be in a pub or bar for after-work socializing like in NYC or London. So generally i find, Indians are way less religious & can adapt quickly to the West.

Hindus have concept of Karma. Basically Hindus believe that we get results based on our actions. So if I do something bad - I will face the consequences in this life. Even if I pray to God - it cannot help me. Which is why Hindus don't invoke God in everything bcoz we know it wont help. Therefore we focus more on our actions.

In contrast Muslims believe everything happens as per God's will. Thats why Mulsims always invoke God in everything. This why u guys say Inshallah , Mashallah for everything

 

[IndoorCricket]

Hinduism core ideology is not in God worship but rather Moksha or liberation. God (or rather Bhakti) is a path to achieve it. There are other ways to achieve it but Bhakti is the simplest way to do it. Thats why we have small mandirs in our house where our day starts with pooja. This is rather very different form core belief of Abrahamic religions and I think this belief plays is a role in assimilation

 

[Varun]

Speaking as a Hindu and a former NRI - we don't lump ourselves as Hindus too much. In fact, state borders play more of a role in defining communities - Tamilians/Bengalis/Mallus etc.

Muslims on the other hand seem more monolithic and the sense of identity transcends even national boundaries - you will see posters over here express strong opinions even if a Chechen guy causes a stir in Boston, USA.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Hindus and Sikhs you come across abroad are top of the cream. They are more educated, less patriotic etc. They are not true representation. You have to spend time in India to reach any conclusion.

Short answer is NO, these religions are not more likely to assimilate in comparison to Islam. Only time Muslims cross the line is when they do not tolerate infidels or try to convert others. They have all the right to feel superior, to believe their God is real God.

Sikhism even though is always grouped among Dharmic religions but it's actually a monotheistic faith. Sikh holy scripture clearly mandates to have faith in one Supreme God instead of 8.4 million deities. In this aspect, Sikhism is more closer to Abrahamic faiths.

I really don't even know what to say here. This is like watching Rangi Ram from It ain't half hot Mum fame. I can link an episode for those who aren't famiilar.

 

[cricketjoshila]

A Muslim's world usually revolves around religion creating more friction points with other cultures. Like someone mentioned, Sikhs and Hindus are barely practicing in their home country, so it's kind of hopeless to expect them making a big deal out of religion in the West.

Sikhs Hindus barely practising in their home country? Really?

 

[cricketjoshila]

Why should the college or office or institute celebrating Diwali or Holi matter?

I am a hindu, its my duty to celebrate my religious festival not the duty of the school or office or the govt.

Sometime back someone posted how muslims demand and get halal food in schools while vegetarian Indians brought home food. Is it the responsibility of the school to give me food as per my religion? No. When i was in school, the canteen didn't have onion garlic less food which i needed on Tuesdays so i brought my own food.

Demanding others or the govt to make concessions for my religion in a western country is not the indicator of how seriously one is following Hinduism.

 

[Varun]

Sikhs Hindus barely practising in their home country? Really?

Let's face it - compared to Muslims we do nothing.

 

[Sidilicious]

Every Hindu I’ve met also says Hinduism is not a religion but a code of life so your last paragraph itself is contradictory.

Anyways it depends what you mean by integration. I don’t see it as integration. What I see is being afraid to assert own identity. If you ask for nothing, keep your head down and generally have a timid midsdemeanor then no majority community will have any issue with you because you are not really ‘visible’ in day to day life and just live in the background. This is what Hindus do for example. And sure if you want to call it integration then good for you but that’s not what it is.

Adherents of Indian dharmic faiths like Hinduism or Jainism generally do not want to upset the apple cart and ask for representation in terms of places of worship or identity. If there’s anything they want which slightly will go against the majority’s wishes they will just let it go and keep their head down. On the other hand Muslims or even Jews in the past do not do it the same way. They will want to change the status quo and as citizens of a country they have the right to do so. And as a result there will be things said about them.

An example is from my secondary school in Germany. Probably the number of Indian origin Hindus was similar to the Muslims of Turkish and Arab descent. Our school had some event about all the main Muslim festivals but I only remember Diwali happening one year and that too at the end. But if your definition of integration is the Hindus not celebrating their festival or having any cultural event in school , then I definitely don’t want such integration.

Real integration would be where the majority population knows and respects your festival and vice versa. You hang out together and learn from each other. Integration wouldn’t be putting your head down and follow whatever the white man says but still have all your friends be Indians.

Absolute TOSH. The number of Indians in Germany, is no where compared to Turks in Germany. Its only in the last 5 years that the number of Indians has increased significantly and will become one of the major ethnic minorities in the next 10 years. This comparison will be valid in 10 years time, when the Indian population is as numerous as the Turkish population and have their 1st generation of Germans with Indian heritage. Currently, its mostly 1st gen off the boat Indians.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Let's face it - compared to Muslims we do nothing.

Why should we do what the muslims do? They are a different religion.

 

[Varun]

Why should we do what the muslims do? They are a different religion.

Re-read what I wrote.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Re-read what I wrote.

I read it. There is no comparison.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Hinduism core ideology is not in God worship but rather Moksha or liberation. God (or rather Bhakti) is a path to achieve it. There are other ways to achieve it but Bhakti is the simplest way to do it. Thats why we have small mandirs in our house where our day starts with pooja. This is rather very different form core belief of Abrahamic religions and I think this belief plays is a role in assimilation

I think the mandirs in the home might be true in India itself, not sure they survive beyond the first generation when Hindus settle abroad. I do like the core concept of Moksha, it stands up quite well intellectually, although again, not sure it translates that well into real life. Otherwise 75% of Indians wouldn't be cheering on a maniac like Modi.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Hinduism just needs to add Jesus as an avatar of Vishnu and its all Jingalala from there.

Polytheism always wins over monotheism when it comes to assimilating new culture.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Sikhs Hindus barely practising in their home country? Really?

There is some truth to what he is saying. Hindus and Sikhs do not come close to Muslims when it comes to practicing their religion. Majority of Hindus at least are very liberal and praying is not mandatory.

Me and my friends rarely ever went to Temples. In fact, I have not seen any of my friends in my home town even visit a temple once a year.

 

[sweep_shot]

There is some truth to what he is saying. Hindus and Sikhs do not come close to Muslims when it comes to practicing their religion. Majority of Hindus at least are very liberal and praying is not mandatory.

Me and my friends rarely ever went to Temples. In fact, I have not seen any of my friends in my home town even visit a temple once a year.

This seems true.

For example, I believe Sikhs are supposed to have daggers with them (Kirpan). But, how many Sikhs really do it?

 

[Champ_Pal]

This seems true.

For example, I believe Sikhs are supposed to have daggers with them (Kirpan). But, how many Sikhs really do it?

I cannot comment on Sikhs, but Hindus are Hindus just for namesakes. Majority of them.

 

[Major]

Do hindus view their religion as a code of life or just religion?

 

[JaDed]

None because West itself is not as religious anymore same with majority Hindus coming to the west.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Hinduism just needs to add Jesus as an avatar of Vishnu and its all Jingalala from there.

Polytheism always wins over monotheism when it comes to assimilating new culture.

Or being assimilated when outside of India.

 

[Local.Dada]

You saw guys like Moeen Ali and Rashid who grew up all their lives around western culture running like a grenade was opened during the WC final win when the champagne popped.


There was a thread on this forum which consists of predominantly Muslims in the west having doubts about applying hand sanitizer during the peak of Covid only becauseit has alcohol in it.

These kind of semantics are not lost on people.

I wouldn’t generalize all Muslims but Muslims do tend to get Uber religious especially in Europe,Uk and these days in Canada as well. Most have confused and muddled perspectives and are the benchmark for what is considered a typical foreign born confused desi.

It’s easy for some of the Mullahs in these mosques who are mostly imported from our very own Uttar Pradesh, Lahore/Karachi etc to weave their magic on this confused diaspora.

That’s my honest take. Not intended to hurt anyone. Respectful disagreements welcome.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

You saw guys like Moeen Ali and Rashid who grew up all their lives around western culture running like a grenade was opened during the WC final win when the champagne popped.


There was a thread on this forum which consists of predominantly Muslims in the west having doubts about applying hand sanitizer during the peak of Covid only becauseit has alcohol in it.

These kind of semantics are not lost on people.

I wouldnÂ’t generalize all Muslims but Muslims do tend to get Uber religious especially in Europe,Uk and these days in Canada as well. Most have confused and muddled perspectives and are the benchmark for what is considered a typical foreign born confused desi.

ItÂ’s easy for some of the Mullahs in these mosques who are mostly imported from our very own Uttar Pradesh, Lahore/Karachi etc to weave their magic on this confused diaspora.

ThatÂ’s my honest take. Not intended to hurt anyone. Respectful disagreements welcome.

Depends on your definition of confused I suppose. I would find it confusing being a Hindu telling my boy it's okay to be a girl even if he does have male genitalia. No offence intended, respectful disagreements welcome of course.

 

[Major]

You saw guys like Moeen Ali and Rashid who grew up all their lives around western culture running like a grenade was opened during the WC final win when the champagne popped.


There was a thread on this forum which consists of predominantly Muslims in the west having doubts about applying hand sanitizer during the peak of Covid only becauseit has alcohol in it.

These kind of semantics are not lost on people.

I wouldnÂ’t generalize all Muslims but Muslims do tend to get Uber religious especially in Europe,Uk and these days in Canada as well. Most have confused and muddled perspectives and are the benchmark for what is considered a typical foreign born confused desi.

ItÂ’s easy for some of the Mullahs in these mosques who are mostly imported from our very own Uttar Pradesh, Lahore/Karachi etc to weave their magic on this confused diaspora.

ThatÂ’s my honest take. Not intended to hurt anyone. Respectful disagreements welcome.

western values isnt just drinking alcahol or spraying alcahol.

When we discuss values, there is more to alcahol and sleeping around. These are not really values but vices that every society has.

Yes, when muslims act crazy on hand sanitizers that looks odd.

 

[Local.Dada]

western values isnt just drinking alcahol or spraying alcahol.

When we discuss values, there is more to alcahol and sleeping around. These are not really values but vices that every society has.

Yes, when muslims act crazy on hand sanitizers that looks odd.

I just gave that as an example.

Alcohol is prohibited or seen as a wrong in most Hindu households as well. I can speak for my community at least.

However not drinking is given as a moral or ethical value and not a religious one.

That’s the cultural difference I am pointing out.

Also it’s such a village idiot understanding that a white family will encourage their kids to get drunk or sleep around. Hollywood is not an example of how most white people behave.

You will be surprised how many white middle class households in USA have the same basic values that most desi parents have like paying for college, wedding etc. with or without imposing religious values on kids

 

[Champ_Pal]

Depends on your definition of confused I suppose. I would find it confusing being a Hindu telling my boy it's okay to be a girl even if he does have male genitalia. No offence intended, respectful disagreements welcome of course.

You have jumped into LGBTQ issue. What LocalDada was saying is, Muslims do tend to be in 2 minds when it comes to simple issues like Hand Sanitizer or popping a Champagne bottle during celebrations etc. I have seen examples of this at my work place also. They avoid Christmas parties even though they are secular and no Jesus prayers are involved. They also avoid office gatherings that involve families just because some may be drinking wine or beer.

 

[Local.Dada]

[MENTION=135038]Major[/MENTION] I think you lived in Canada right?

So in your interaction with western people (non-desi) folk are you telling me they don’t subscribe to the same core values like raising their kids right, giving them education etc ?

 

[AamchiMumbaikar]

Do hindus view their religion as a code of life or just religion?

Neither, many of us in current generation just follow things as we are born into it, we do not have deep understanding of religion neither have time/ passion to learn those ways.

I guess Muslims are the most passionate of all religious followers in this world, you will hardly find anyone who is an atheist/ non believer.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

You have jumped into LGBTQ issue. What LocalDada was saying is, Muslims do tend to be in 2 minds when it comes to simple issues like Hand Sanitizer or popping a Champagne bottle during celebrations etc. I have seen examples of this at my work place also. They avoid Christmas parties even though they are secular and no Jesus prayers are involved. They also avoid office gatherings that involve families just because some may be drinking wine or beer.

That's not strictly true, Muslims often go to Christmas parties even if they don't drink in order to fit in with team culture. Hand sanitiser stuff is just stupidity in my opinion, but it's not two minds. If Moeen Ali doesn't want to be sprayed with champagne that's his choice. I doubt his England team mates care as much about it as you guys. It's not a big deal.

 

[NishanKonar]

You saw guys like Moeen Ali and Rashid who grew up all their lives around western culture running like a grenade was opened during the WC final win when the champagne popped.


There was a thread on this forum which consists of predominantly Muslims in the west having doubts about applying hand sanitizer during the peak of Covid only becauseit has alcohol in it.

These kind of semantics are not lost on people.

I wouldnÂ’t generalize all Muslims but Muslims do tend to get Uber religious especially in Europe,Uk and these days in Canada as well. Most have confused and muddled perspectives and are the benchmark for what is considered a typical foreign born confused desi.

ItÂ’s easy for some of the Mullahs in these mosques who are mostly imported from our very own Uttar Pradesh, Lahore/Karachi etc to weave their magic on this confused diaspora.

ThatÂ’s my honest take. Not intended to hurt anyone. Respectful disagreements welcome.

British Pakistanis are by and large extremely conservative in nature. No wonder Moeen Ali and Ali Rashid behave like that. Its largeley bcoz British Paksitani community have low education and mostly blue collar workers who live in ghettos

Compared that to US PAkistani community. They are far more liberal and moderate. Bcoz they are better educated and more integrated with mainstream US culture

 

[NishanKonar]

Do hindus view their religion as a code of life or just religion?

Hindus believe in Karma. Basically our actions begets our future consequences. So we are free to do whatever we do in life but we have to face consequences for our actions later. This is core philosophy. Ultimately the goal if to get Moksha and liberation which we get basis our actions / deeds

This is different from Islam where most of ur actions are dictated by the Quran and Hadith

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

British Pakistanis are by and large extremely conservative in nature. No wonder Moeen Ali and Ali Rashid behave like that. Its largeley bcoz British Paksitani community have low education and mostly blue collar workers who live in ghettos

Compared that to US PAkistani community. They are far more liberal and moderate. Bcoz they are better educated and more integrated with mainstream US culture

We were having this conversation yesterday, British Pakistanis come from more blue collar background generally, although they don't live in ghettoes. British Indians are better educated but tend to be nerds who don't get out much so even their integration is limited.

 

[Local.Dada]

British Pakistanis are by and large extremely conservative in nature. No wonder Moeen Ali and Ali Rashid behave like that. Its largeley bcoz British Paksitani community have low education and mostly blue collar workers who live in ghettos

Compared that to US PAkistani community. They are far more liberal and moderate. Bcoz they are better educated and more integrated with mainstream US culture

True. Also I think British and Europe have more welfare schemes while in USA there is a limit on the unemployment benefits.

As I said most of the mullahs etc are imported from local Indian/Pakistani/ Bangladeshi mosques so they bring in those sensibilities to these places and it’s easy to manipulate an angry teenager who already faces some racial discrimination into hating everything about the west.

Govt Freebies + angry directionless teenager + a politically motivated preacher is a dangerous concoction.

 

[sweep_shot]

British Pakistanis are by and large extremely conservative in nature. No wonder Moeen Ali and Ali Rashid behave like that. Its largeley bcoz British Paksitani community have low education and mostly blue collar workers who live in ghettos

Compared that to US PAkistani community. They are far more liberal and moderate. Bcoz they are better educated and more integrated with mainstream US culture

I know many educated people who are devout Muslims.

Also, integrating with mainstream US culture is not really a badge of honor. I wouldn't want my daughter to sleep around like many "mainstream" US kids do. I am not married and I don't have a kid; it is just hypothetical.

As long as a citizen is law-abiding, paying taxes etc., I think hard assimilation is not necessary.

 

[Local.Dada]

I know many educated people who are devout Muslims.

Also, integrating with mainstream US culture is not really a badge of honor. I wouldn't want my daughter to sleep around like many "mainstream" US kids do. I am not married and I don't have a kid; it is just hypothetical.

As long as a citizen is law-abiding, paying taxes etc., I think hard assimilation is not necessary.

What is a “mainstream” US kid? )

 

[sweep_shot]

What is a “mainstream” US kid? )

Ask Nishan. He came up with "mainstream US culture". So, I was responding to him.

It is true though. Many American kids like to sleep around, drink alcohol, party etc. These are facts.

 

[Local.Dada]

Ask Nishan. He came up with "mainstream US culture". So, I was responding to him.

It is true though. Many American kids like to sleep around, drink alcohol, party etc. These are facts.

When you say American kids are you talking about white people, black, Hispanic, Asian, Native American. Who are you talking about?

If that’s the only thing American kids do all the time then why do you think America is a superpower?

So 2 conclusions

either sleeping around for youngsters is a solution to being a superpower and a developed country

Or

Maybe you are generalizing the same way when people say Muslims are radical and do terrorism.

Which one is it?

 

[Major]

I just gave that as an example.

Alcohol is prohibited or seen as a wrong in most Hindu households as well. I can speak for my community at least.

However not drinking is given as a moral or ethical value and not a religious one.

That’s the cultural difference I am pointing out.

Also it’s such a village idiot understanding that a white family will encourage their kids to get drunk or sleep around. Hollywood is not an example of how most white people behave.

You will be surprised how many white middle class households in USA have the same basic values that most desi parents have like paying for college, wedding etc. with or without imposing religious values on kids

As for drinking, yes western people do drink alcohol, but it isnt as if that if you dont drink alcohol you cant sit with us or be a part of our group. Being a non drinker you can still hangout with your mates and get coke or juice or whatever. There is this big misconception people have that if you dont drink you dont get to be part of that group.

As for the sleeping around part, you are getting it wrong man. You are giving the desi logic to sleeping around.

No family in the west encourages you to sleep around. You have to be a very dysfunctional one to promote such a thing. Its not like parents organize orgies for their children. Sleeping around takes places because in West, students and adults socialize amongst each other. There isnt that shame attach to socializing with the opposite gender. Than, parents dont give freedom to have sex, what they do is they give you freedom and not act controlling with whom you be friends with or go out.

Than what adds to the sleeping around part is that children start living alone as they cross 18, thus having freedom, a place of their own etc.

If you do not sleep around, that doesnt mean you are not assimilated with western society. Think about it, a guy who is a 30+ year old virgin, does that mean he has not assimilated into society? I think Russel Peters himself claims he lost his virgitiy at a very later age. Does that mean Russel or his family were not part of the Canadian society.

Russell tells that his father used to make sure to do barbeques and what not to assimilate with the Canadians. Now was Russel's father sleeping around even though he was married?

Sleeping around and drinking are not values and are just very two poor examples that people think that defines the West or whiteman

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Ask Nishan. He came up with "mainstream US culture". So, I was responding to him.

It is true though. Many American kids like to sleep around, drink alcohol, party etc. These are facts.

Of course they do, and why shouldn't they? It's their culture. I don't know why anyone would dispute it, it's not something to be ashamed of. Yes of course many Americans will refrain and disapprove of partying and drinking as well, but that doesn't mean the country as a whole disapproves of it. Plenty of British Pakistanis like to do it as well if we are being honest, probably more than British Indians - well the men at least.

 

[NishanKonar]

True. Also I think British and Europe have more welfare schemes while in USA there is a limit on the unemployment benefits.

As I said most of the mullahs etc are imported from local Indian/Pakistani/ Bangladeshi mosques so they bring in those sensibilities to these places and it’s easy to manipulate an angry teenager who already faces some racial discrimination into hating everything about the west.

Govt Freebies + angry directionless teenager + a politically motivated preacher is a dangerous concoction.

In UK these mullahs have better traction with the masses bcoz they average British Pakistan / Bangladeshi is less educated blue collar workers who grew up in ghettos in a backward bubble. Of course bcoz of social welfare schemes help lot of these folks don't even bother about getting better education and jobs bcoz there are good unemployment benefits ! No wonder they have so much time to spend on religious issues

In the US these rabble rouser mullas dont get much attention bcoz the average Pakistani / Bangladeshi diaspora guy here is more eductaed who wants a decent job and good life. There are certain pockets like Queens ( New York ) where u have ghetto mindset but thankfully vast majority are not like that .

USA does not have social welfare schemes - if u don't get good education and job , u will have tough life. That probably drives everyone to focus more on career rather than religion and other pursuits. A big difference between UK and USA !

 

[sweep_shot]

When you say American kids are you talking about white people, black, Hispanic, Asian, Native American. Who are you talking about?

If that’s the only thing American kids do all the time then why do you think America is a superpower?

So 2 conclusions

either sleeping around for youngsters is a solution to being a superpower and a developed country

Or

Maybe you are generalizing the same way when people say Muslims are radical and do terrorism.

Which one is it?

I didn't say American kids do those all the time. But, there is a significant percentage who do this. I grew up in Canada and I know what kids do here.

The questions you are asking have nothing to do with what I wrote.

Also, they are a declining superpower. Marxists are taking over America.

 

[Major]

[MENTION=135038]Major[/MENTION] I think you lived in Canada right?

So in your interaction with western people (non-desi) folk are you telling me they don’t subscribe to the same core values like raising their kids right, giving them education etc ?

they do.

I am not getting what you are trying to say? That values are the same no matter you are western or Muslim?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

In UK these mullahs have better traction with the masses bcoz they average British Pakistan / Bangladeshi is less educated blue collar workers who grew up in ghettos in a backward bubble. Of course bcoz of social welfare schemes help lot of these folks don't even bother about getting better education and jobs bcoz there are good unemployment benefits ! No wonder they have so much time to spend on religious issues

In the US these rabble rouser mullas dont get much attention bcoz the average Pakistani / Bangladeshi diaspora guy here is more eductaed who wants a decent job and good life. There are certain pockets like Queens ( New York ) where u have ghetto mindset but thankfully vast majority are not like that .

USA does not have social welfare schemes - if u don't get good education and job , u will have tough life. That probably drives everyone to focus more on career rather than religion and other pursuits. A big difference between UK and USA !

How would you know any of this? You seem to be passing off a lot of statements when I doubt you have any experience of life in Britain, or have any direct experience of Pakistani households.

 

[NishanKonar]

Ask Nishan. He came up with "mainstream US culture". So, I was responding to him.

It is true though. Many American kids like to sleep around, drink alcohol, party etc. These are facts.

The word " mainstream culture " is probably wrong usage of word

What I meant was in the US - Hindus / Sikhs / Muslims don't stick out of the crowd. U don't have that ghetto mindset. Most communities live alongside others. There is lot of social interaction between the communities. U talk to an average Hindu / SIkh / Muslim college kid - their aspirations and dreams are not very different from a local American kid

Unlike UK / France where u can see distinct ghetto environment for certain communities with little social interaction with other communities. U can see there is clear distance between them and the native community

 

[Local.Dada]

they do.

I am not getting what you are trying to say? That values are the same no matter you are western or Muslim?

I am saying core values are the same for everyone be it black, white or Indian.

I am against the argument that western values encourages sleeping around and drinking and it is the polar opposite of Islam or any other religion.

Only the cultural and ritual aspects differ.

I find the argument that so and so value raises good kids and the rest are filthy problematic.

If you are saying the same thing, we are on the same page.

 

[Rajdeep]

It really depends on what does assimilate with western culture means. I moved to the United Kingdom in 2012 and not for a moment tried to do anything different than what I was already doing back home. I was already going to pubs, enjoying nightlife, listening to Pitbull (LOL ) back then in India. So when I moved to London, I didn't had to do anything different or assimilate in anyway culturally. All of it came naturally.

Similarly things that I was not used to growing up with, I still don't do. Moving to west or mars makes zero difference. For example changing my eating habits. I still don't eat beef or pork and never would. Infact, I mostly like to eat Indian food even after spending over a decade here and have zero interest in trying typical English breakfast.

I also grew up with Indian accent and still maintains the same even though I know people who fakes their accent as soon as they land in Heathrow

Me moving to west has made zero difference to my personality as I was same a decade back as I am now. So this assimilation really depends on person to person.

 

[Major]

I am saying core values are the same for everyone be it black, white or Indian.

I am against the argument that western values encourages sleeping around and drinking and it is the polar opposite of Islam or any other religion.

Only the cultural and ritual aspects differ.

I find the argument that so and so value raises good kids and the rest are filthy problematic.

If you are saying the same thing, we are on the same page.

we were on the same page all along. My apologies

Yes, you are right. Its ridiculous how people living in west think that drinking and sleeping around are western values.

 

[Ahmad-GERMANFC]

Absolute TOSH. The number of Indians in Germany, is no where compared to Turks in Germany. Its only in the last 5 years that the number of Indians has increased significantly and will become one of the major ethnic minorities in the next 10 years. This comparison will be valid in 10 years time, when the Indian population is as numerous as the Turkish population and have their 1st generation of Germans with Indian heritage. Currently, its mostly 1st gen off the boat Indians.

Learn how to read. I’m talking about my school where there were a lot of fob Indians. Obv no overall comparison rn tho the Turks are usually concentrated in a few areas

 

[sweep_shot]

Its ridiculous how people living in west think that drinking and sleeping around are western values.

These are more common in west than in other parts of the world. That's what I was referring to.

So, yes. These are primarily western things.

I know people in east are starting to copy these but it originated from west.

 

[Major]

These are more common in west than in other parts of the world. That's what I was referring to.

So, yes. These are primarily western things.

I know people in east are starting to copy these but it originated from west.

how did sex out of wedlock originated in west? Youngsters in Pakistan sleep around with prostitutes especially the ones that cant get a girl. How are they copying sex out of wedlock?

These are not values. Stop trying to portray sex and alcahol as values

 

[sweep_shot]

how did sex out of wedlock originated in west? Youngsters in Pakistan sleep around with prostitutes especially the ones that cant get a girl. How are they copying sex out of wedlock?

These are not values. Stop trying to portray sex and alcahol as values

These are customs. Not values. You are right. I never called these values.

A few Pakistanis may do it but the culture of subcontinent/Pakistan overall is conservative.

On the other hand, culture of west is naturally secular (used to be Christian). So, these stuffs are more acceptable here.

 

[NishanKonar]

I am saying core values are the same for everyone be it black, white or Indian.

I am against the argument that western values encourages sleeping around and drinking and it is the polar opposite of Islam or any other religion.

Only the cultural and ritual aspects differ.

I find the argument that so and so value raises good kids and the rest are filthy problematic.

If you are saying the same thing, we are on the same page.

Its funny how many people think Western culture is only about alcohol and sleeping around

Imagine if Westerners say desi culture is all about misogyny and toxic patriarchy

 

[Local.Dada]

These are customs. Not values. You are right. I never called these values.

A few Pakistanis may do it but the culture of subcontinent/Pakistan overall is conservative.

On the other hand, culture of west is naturally secular (used to be Christian). So, these stuffs are more acceptable here.

These are not customs. It comes from freedom.

Firstly you said not all do it. Let’s build on that.

Are you telling me everyone who sleeps around gets AIDS and dies or are there some people who go on to be successful ?

Have you ever been compelled to participate in any of these activities?

Have you never seen a normal non-Islamic person also stay away from such things?

Not sure what your point is. If you have a problem there are plenty of countries that suit your lifestyle. Stop complaining about the values of a country which has given you a lot more freedom to talk and even give half-illiterate views on here. You are free to move back to conservative Bangladesh if this is a problem for you.

At this point all you are doing is demeaning rest of the people who don’t subscribe to your values with the most dumb and bigoted rhetoric.

 

[sweep_shot]

Not sure what your point is. If you have a problem there are plenty of countries that suit your lifestyle. Stop complaining about the values of a country which has given you a lot more freedom to talk and even give half-illiterate views on here. You are free to move back to conservative Bangladesh if this is a problem for you.

At this point all you are doing is demeaning rest of the people who don’t subscribe to your values with the most dumb and bigoted rhetoric.

It is not really complaining. It is just an observation.

My view is shared by many Canadian conservatives too. I am not alone in my view.

Why should I go back? It is not illegal to have a view.

Sleeping around may seem like freedom to you but it is something I find unnatural.

 

[Local.Dada]

Its funny how many people think Western culture is only about alcohol and sleeping around

Imagine if Westerners say desi culture is all about misogyny and toxic patriarchy

It’s funnier because this is coming from people who actually live there lol.

Imagine some foreigner living in India or Pakistan giving even a valid criticism about say a poor road with potholes or garbage on the streets and all hell will break lose.

 

[sweep_shot]

T

Not sure what your point is. If you have a problem there are plenty of countries that suit your lifestyle. Stop complaining about the values of a country which has given you a lot more freedom to talk and even give half-illiterate views on here. You are free to move back to conservative Bangladesh if this is a problem for you.

Also, LOL at an Indian asking me to go back. Who are you to tell me that? I am a citizen of Canada and you don't live here.

 

[NishanKonar]

These are not customs. It comes from freedom.

Firstly you said not all do it. Let’s build on that.

Are you telling me everyone who sleeps around gets AIDS and dies or are there some people who go on to be successful ?

Have you ever been compelled to participate in any of these activities?

Have you never seen a normal non-Islamic person also stay away from such things?

Not sure what your point is. If you have a problem there are plenty of countries that suit your lifestyle. Stop complaining about the values of a country which has given you a lot more freedom to talk and even give half-illiterate views on here. You are free to move back to conservative Bangladesh if this is a problem for you.

At this point all you are doing is demeaning rest of the people who don’t subscribe to your values with the most dumb and bigoted rhetoric.

This is key point

Western civilization gives an individual total freedom. It depends on how people use that freedom. There are fewer restrictions on anyone

Marisa Mayer used that freedom to become a tech CEO. Mia Khalifa used that freedom to become porn star. But the point is that level of freedom allows people to express themselves better - which is why the West is so advanced in every field like science , technology , space etc. The problem is many people will only see the Mia Khalifa and SUnny Leone - not the MArissa Mayers, MArie Curie, Meg Whitman , Susan Wojcicki , KImberly Bryant

Imagine if Marisa Mayer was born in Pakistan. Her chances of becoming an engineer ( or any profession) wud have been greatly reduced. Most likely she wud have got married to some cousin and produced 4-5 kids. Of course many Pakistanis will say that's exactly what women are meant to do

This is fundamental difference between Western and desi culture