Islam/Hinduism/Sikhism- Which of these religion can easily assimilate with Western civilization?

[NishanKonar]

It’s funnier because this is coming from people who actually live there lol.

Imagine some foreigner living in India or Pakistan giving even a valid criticism about say a poor road with potholes or garbage on the streets and all hell will break lose.

This is the tragedy with most desis who go to the West to make money

They never understand its that Western values that allowed these countries to be so rich in the first place. Unless you learn and adopt best practices of the West - our home countries will always be poor and under-developed. This applies to all desis - India / Pakistan / Bangladesh

If US and Canada had the same cultural values as desi - these countries wud be as dirt poor and under developed as subcontinent !

I often see desis cribbing about Western feminism. Well one reason for West's prosperity is they allow women to study and work. There fore they make full use of their labour force potential. While in subcontinent 75-80% of of women do not work. That's a huge waste of human resource and labor productivity which has negative impact on our economies

 

[Local.Dada]

Also, LOL at an Indian asking me to go back. Who are you to tell me that? I am a citizen of Canada and you don't live here.

I gave you a suggestion because since you seem to hate everything about the culture surrounding you and didn’t even make an attempt to understand it.

I live in the USA and all when I see a brainwashed half-wit giving generalized opinion on fellow
Americans, I get concerned and only gave you an advice.

Continue living in Canada and hating everything around you. I am sure that is healthy for everyone involved lol. Not my problem.

 

[Technics 1210]

Time for a wake up call.

Western core values are based on Christianity.

Everything else in the West is culture combined with liberalism gone mad.

 

[sweep_shot]

Time for a wake up call.

Western core values are based on Christianity.

Everything else in the West is culture combined with liberalism gone mad.

Secularism and Marxism is truly a dangerous combination. We are now seeing this in west (particularly in United States).

We are seeing what happens when you do not call out narratives of gender studies and social studies pupils.

 

[KingKhanWC]

[MENTION=48620]Cpt. Rishwat[/MENTION] and [MENTION=29115]RexRex[/MENTION] were discussing in other thread where it was pointed out that Sikhs and Hindus can easily assimilate to western culture with reason being given that they probably look at western values as superior to their own.

While muslims dont assimilate that easily and could be the reason why Islamophobia exists?

Hinduphobia and Sikhophobia dont really exist, while Islamophobia does. Is the reason behind this that Muslims dont easily integrate in such society?


One thing is certain, Muslims dont identify Islam as religion but as a code of life, which can be cause of rift when integrating

What do you mean by assimilate? Please define this first.

 

[cricketjoshila]

There is some truth to what he is saying. Hindus and Sikhs do not come close to Muslims when it comes to practicing their religion. Majority of Hindus at least are very liberal and praying is not mandatory.

Me and my friends rarely ever went to Temples. In fact, I have not seen any of my friends in my home town even visit a temple once a year.

Visiting temples is not mandatory in hinduism.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

What do you mean by assimilate? Please define this first.

I always assume this means ease off and do non-Muslim stuff. What else could it mean? Otherwise we all join in other facets of life, we go to football games, watch the same shows, most of us will have some non-Muslim friends as well. I think maybe he is assuming we are living like it was Pakistan.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Visiting temples is not mandatory in hinduism.

Exactly. There is no compulsion in Hinduism. You do it at your own will. No one will judge you based on your attire and whether you put a Tilak or not. That is the freedom I like. The same with Christianity in the West. No one forces you or judges you if you do not go to Church or pray daily.

 

[Major]

What do you mean by assimilate? Please define this first.

Cultural Assimilation: Cultural assimilation is the process in which a minority group or culture comes to resemble a society's majority group or assume the values, behaviors, and beliefs of another group whether fully or partially.

From Britanica.com:
in anthropology and sociology, the process whereby individuals or groups of differing ethnic heritage are absorbed into the dominant culture of a society. The process of assimilating involves taking on the traits of the dominant culture to such a degree that the assimilating group becomes socially indistinguishable from other members of the society. As such, assimilation is the most extreme form of acculturation. Although assimilation may be compelled through force or undertaken voluntarily, it is rare for a minority group to replace its previous cultural practices completely; religion, food preferences, proxemics (e.g., the physical distance between people in a given social situation), and aesthetics are among the characteristics that tend to be most resistant to change. Assimilation does not denote “racial” or biological fusion, though such fusion may occur.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Cultural Assimilation: Cultural assimilation is the process in which a minority group or culture comes to resemble a society's majority group or assume the values, behaviors, and beliefs of another group whether fully or partially.

From Britanica.com:
in anthropology and sociology, the process whereby individuals or groups of differing ethnic heritage are absorbed into the dominant culture of a society. The process of assimilating involves taking on the traits of the dominant culture to such a degree that the assimilating group becomes socially indistinguishable from other members of the society. As such, assimilation is the most extreme form of acculturation. Although assimilation may be compelled through force or undertaken voluntarily, it is rare for a minority group to replace its previous cultural practices completely; religion, food preferences, proxemics (e.g., the physical distance between people in a given social situation), and aesthetics are among the characteristics that tend to be most resistant to change. Assimilation does not denote “racial” or biological fusion, though such fusion may occur.

You want Muslims to abandon their own beliefs and replace them with secular atheist beliefs? lol

As you're not from the UK or the west, you probably dont realise how it works here.

As long as you dont break the law, you are FREE to live how you wish. This term assimilation was conjured by racists to attack minorities.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

You want Muslims to abandon their own beliefs and replace them with secular atheist beliefs? lol

As you're not from the UK or the west, you probably dont realise how it works here.

As long as you dont break the law, you are FREE to live how you wish. This term assimilation was conjured by racists to attack minorities.

Indians are good at assimilation, that's why the locals like them better. They love assimilating them.

 

[Major]

You want Muslims to abandon their own beliefs and replace them with secular atheist beliefs? lol

As you're not from the UK or the west, you probably dont realise how it works here.

As long as you dont break the law, you are FREE to live how you wish. This term assimilation was conjured by racists to attack minorities.

assimilation is a term that is used in sociology and anthropology which is why i even gave you the defination of theirs too.

 

[MenInG]

Having lived in the UK for a number of years, I have never felt the need to assimilate, nor has anyone ever asked me to do that.

Assimilation does not mean having a few drinks in the pub, to me it means not making others uncomfortable in your presence.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I always assume this means ease off and do non-Muslim stuff. What else could it mean? Otherwise we all join in other facets of life, we go to football games, watch the same shows, most of us will have some non-Muslim friends as well. I think maybe he is assuming we are living like it was Pakistan.

Major has confirmed to assimilate you have to abandon you belief and accept beliefs of others. Sounds more like an Uncle Tom or being a slave.

assimilation is a term that is used in sociology and anthropology which is why i even gave you the defination of theirs too.

Its all rubbish. No Muslim will abandon his/her belief and accept others if they oppose each other.

You may and Sikhs/Hindus may but its not required, its not normal to to do and its certainly not a person with faith would do.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Having lived in the UK for a number of years, I have never felt the need to assimilate, nor has anyone ever asked me to do that.

Assimilation does not mean having a few drinks in the pub, to me it means not making others uncomfortable in your presence.

The term is never used in the UK but your experiences are real, as most of us have felt since being here as a child.

For me Muslims are already taught about being part of the community in their faith. We must accept the law of the land and we should always try to forge relationships with people who have a different culture.

Most imporantly all people should try to be part of the society ie, in helping the society improve. Which is why there are many Muslims as MPs, Sports stars, Mayors, Judges, Commissioners, TV presenters, Radio Presenters, Movie stars etc.

I would go further and say Muslims have the tools to live with others more than other faiths.

 

[Technics 1210]

The question is, why does one from Islam/Hinduism/Sikhism need to assimilate in the West, when the West promotes freedom, acceptance, diversity, tolerance, and equality? Or are these so called Western values lies?

The reason anyone would want to assimilate is to be accepted within society.

I see Hindus make the most amount of effort to be accepted in the West, and I am speaking from the point of view of being born in London. Hindus generally do not protest in the West safeguarding their values or beliefs (they will in India), but not in the West, why? What is the reason behind this? Well my opinion is Hinduism (actually known as Brahmism), is not a consistent belief structure. Some say beef is permissible, some say it is not. Some say Hindu gods are idols, some say they are avatars. Some say castes are integral, some say they are not.

Point being, consistent religions have no need to assimilate, but religions or belief structures that are inconsistent feel the need to assimilate because they are chasing the one thing other religions have, an identity.

Oh, and if anyone who thinks Hinduism assimilate better than other religions, you only had to look at how Hindus proved they were different to the West, when Modi arrived on Western shores.

Assimilation is all about gaining an identity.

 

[KingKhanWC]

The question is, why does one from Islam/Hinduism/Sikhism need to assimilate in the West, when the West promotes freedom, acceptance, diversity, tolerance, and equality? Or are these so called Western values lies?

The reason anyone would want to assimilate is to be accepted within society.

I see Hindus make the most amount of effort to be accepted in the West, and I am speaking from the point of view of being born in London. Hindus generally do not protest in the West safeguarding their values or beliefs (they will in India), but not in the West, why? What is the reason behind this? Well my opinion is Hinduism (actually known as Brahmism), is not a consistent belief structure. Some say beef is permissible, some say it is not. Some say Hindu gods are idols, some say they are avatars. Some say castes are integral, some say they are not.

Point being, consistent religions have no need to assimilate, but religions or belief structures that are inconsistent feel the need to assimilate because they are chasing the one thing other religions have, an identity.

Oh, and if anyone who thinks Hinduism assimilate better than other religions, you only had to look at how Hindus proved they were different to the West, when Modi arrived on Western shores.

Assimilation is all about gaining an identity.

Great point.

You hear rants from secularists or liberals demanding people should be free to live or play out their lives as they wish.... but the same fools then want others to abandon their lifestyle and merge with theirs.

Its a new type of liberal racism, sounds like an oxymoron but modern liberalism is just that.

 

[PakLFC]

I fel it will be Hinduism. This is because the Hindu's are not strict in their beliefs instead they accept everything and anything. From the loftiest philosophy to the lowest that makes no sense everything makes sense to the Hindu's. From the liberal minded ones to the Aghori they are not fussed about it at all. In Islam and Sikhism their are long beards, turbans, the three K's in Sikhism, hijab and such things that openly result in discrimination.

 

[Robert]

Secularism and Marxism is truly a dangerous combination. We are now seeing this in west (particularly in United States).

We are seeing what happens when you do not call out narratives of gender studies and social studies pupils.

Dangerous to whom? “Narratives of gender studies” are a result, a reaction, not a cause.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Assimilating doesn't mean going to the bar and having drinks like MIG said above.

However assimilating is learning to accept freedom of speech and tolerance, for example you don't cut off someone's head/hand or threaten their life because he/she spoke about your religious figure.

We all come from different cultures and beliefs and we can all live without violence or threats despite our thoughts, opinions and beliefs in the West, that is assimilating imo.

 

[Robert]

Assimilating doesn't mean going to the bar and having drinks like MIG said above.

However assimilating is learning to accept freedom of speech and tolerance, for example you don't cut off someone's head/hand or threaten their life because he/she spoke about your religious figure.

We all come from different cultures and beliefs and we can all live without violence or threats despite our thoughts, opinions and beliefs in the West, that is assimilating imo.

If I moved to Spain I wouldn't convert to Catholicism or attend bullfights.

I would learn the language and make Spanish friends, rather than stay in some Anglo-Saxon expat compound. That would be assimilation enough for me.

Spanish culture and British culture are still broadly similar of course.

I wouldn't move to Saudi Arabia because things are just too different there. I might go for a year to work, stay in the foreign nationals compound, and on the street dress conservatively and not look at women for fear of offending the local culture.

 

[Romali_rotti]

If I moved to Spain I wouldn't convert to Catholicism or attend bullfights.

I would learn the language and make Spanish friends, rather than stay in some Anglo-Saxon expat compound. That would be assimilation enough for me.

Spanish culture and British culture are still broadly similar of course.

I wouldn't move to Saudi Arabia because things are just too different there. I might go for a year to work, stay in the foreign nationals compound, and on the street dress conservatively and not look at women for fear of offending the local culture.

Fair points, where do you feel Muslims are going wrong as far as assimilating in the West go?

Personally I feel the American muslims be it Pakistanis, Indians or Bangladeshi's don't have as much problems assimilating like the ones in Europe especially in the UK.

What in the UK is causing the struggle to assimilate ?

I mean look at the younger generation who are born and brought up in the UK. One young chap earlier made a post which indicates that Hindus/Sikhs were sell outs hence they assimilate in the West unlike ppl of Islamic background. Just the fact he made such a statement just shows the backward mentality, fair enough if he was a fresh of boat from Pakistan. Assimilating doesn't mean getting drunk or going clubbing etc, a person can be just as much Muslim and assimilate with the land he is living in..

 

[Champ_Pal]

If the culture of the new country is too different to yours and you are not willing to change a bit to adapt, then its better to not move to the new country.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Fair points, where do you feel Muslims are going wrong as far as assimilating in the West go?

Personally I feel the American muslims be it Pakistanis, Indians or Bangladeshi's don't have as much problems assimilating like the ones in Europe especially in the UK.

You are the one making these assertions, why don't you tell us where Muslims are going wrong in being assimilated?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

If the culture of the new country is too different to yours and you are not willing to change a bit to adapt, then its better to not move to the new country.

Just about everybody who moves to a new country changes to adapt. It's a very lazy statement which seems to have been made without much thought, and a shedload of prejudice.

 

[the Great Khan]

To answer the question above the answer is Islam.
Now why is have I answered it this way? Well it depends what the individual (who we know has dubious views at the best of times) means by assimilation. If by assimilation you mean adopting every value be it good or bad then i don't anyone wants to fully assimilate. If it means abandoning your religion and culture then none would be the answer. But if you mean integrating to the point where the majority feel perfectly comfortable then it is Islam by a country mile.

And I shall explain. You see Islam shares more with Christians and Jews then it does with the other two and vice versa. When explained most Christians and Jews understand what Islam is and get the basics. (I'm excluding ignorant people who nothing about either). Christian and Jewish values around family rule of law intellectual discovery, belief in one God etc are universal for all three. The issue ultimately comes down to race poverty and class..white Muslims are way more accepted than brown ones. I know this for a fact because I have experience. A white English Muslim may face some issues if they fornexample decide not go around in full jilbab etc but if they dress modestly in an "English acceptable" way then they face less resistance.

But these are anecdotal to an extent. But let's take the other two. Hinduism. The culture is very very strong. To break free of that means to abandon Hinduism altogether. So basically just become an atheist secularist like atheist white people and you will be tolerated (but not liked as your likely to be brown). But Hindus i have found tend to assimilate less or should i say integrate the least. Now I'm not talking about the odd family here and there. I live in one of the largest Indian hindu diaspora communities outside of India. Nearly 200k Indians with a massive Hindu majority. And I can say with surety they do not integrate as well as we think and forget assimilation. The caste system, cultural norms, nationalism these are just some of the issues..try dating a Hindu girl or boy. My current manager is or was a Hindu. She married her Pakistani Muslim boyfriend. She converted to Islam but to this day has told her parents it was just to sign the papers when she actually wants to learn more and is much more inclined. I asked her why she didn't tell her parents. She said because it would be the end. Now it would probably happen the other way around too but I surmise that it is easier for a Muslim to marry a Christian than a Hindu.

Coming onto Sikhs. In essence Sikhs are a minority world religion but have the same issues as hindus and are more visible. I have never met a Sikh who has assimilated. Never. Yeah they may be secular but you can't take out the culture.. and I've met tons of them. They are too proud of fheir culture and religion and would not give it up.

Muslims on the other hand can integrate far better and can still remain Muslims. The flexibility Islam offers is unmatched by the other two. A good example.ia the Arab American Muslim.community who up until 911 were classed as white. Just my two cents.

 

[SpiritOf1903]

The question should be 'Which cultures has Western society accepted?'.

Nothing wrong with Islam but there's a huge stigma through a millennium of turmoil that's created a siege mentality and suspicion that's breeding the other

 

[the Great Khan]

Assimilating doesn't mean going to the bar and having drinks like MIG said above.

However assimilating is learning to accept freedom of speech and tolerance, for example you don't cut off someone's head/hand or threaten their life because he/she spoke about your religious figure.

We all come from different cultures and beliefs and we can all live without violence or threats despite our thoughts, opinions and beliefs in the West, that is assimilating imo.

That's called integrating

 

[SpiritOf1903]

That's called integrating

You integrate kitchen appliances. It's about tolerance

 

[Bewal Express]

For me it's the Hindus. They have little or no love for their religion or language and will do whatever the locals do. I have never seen a group so desperate to get away from themselves. The Sikhs find it difficult because they do stand out and have had to stop wearing the turban to fit in. We as Muslims have the most difficulty because we don't drink, club or buy into the anything goes culture. I think the most important thing is the shared values of tolerance, respecting differences and following the law.

 

[SpiritOf1903]

For me it's the Hindus. They have little or no love for their religion or language and will do whatever the locals do. I have never seen a group so desperate to get away from themselves. The Sikhs find it difficult because they do stand out and have had to stop wearing the turban to fit in. We as Muslims have the most difficulty because we don't drink, club or buy into the anything goes culture. I think the most important thing is the shared values of tolerance, respecting differences and following the law.

What?!. Most bar owners are sikh and they frequent bard and nightclubs either with turbans or their bangles.

Hindus that practice their religion are very serious and follow it to their book.

Hinduphobia ought to stop!

 

[cricketjoshila]

For me it's the Hindus. They have little or no love for their religion or language and will do whatever the locals do. I have never seen a group so desperate to get away from themselves. The Sikhs find it difficult because they do stand out and have had to stop wearing the turban to fit in. We as Muslims have the most difficulty because we don't drink, club or buy into the anything goes culture. I think the most important thing is the shared values of tolerance, respecting differences and following the law.

What do you know about Hinduism to make this comment?

Just because hindus are more comfortable living in a foreign culture compared to muslims doesn't mean they have no love for their own religion culture and language.

Just that they usually don't expect others to make concessions for their religious needs.

 

[sweep_shot]

What do you know about Hinduism to make this comment?

Just because hindus are more comfortable living in a foreign culture compared to muslims doesn't mean they have no love for their own religion culture and language.

Just that they usually don't expect others to make concessions for their religious needs.

So, do you speak for all Hindus? LOL.

Vast majority of the Hindus I have seen in Canada are non-practicing.

 

[Bewal Express]

What do you know about Hinduism to make this comment?

Just because hindus are more comfortable living in a foreign culture compared to muslims doesn't mean they have no love for their own religion culture and language.

Just that they usually don't expect others to make concessions for their religious needs.

Not Hinduism, Hindus I have met. I have never met any people so hating of themselves,the only others that come close is Iranians.

 

[Bewal Express]

What?!. Most bar owners are sikh and they frequent bard and nightclubs either with turbans or their bangles.

Hindus that practice their religion are very serious and follow it to their book.

Hinduphobia ought to stop!

I am not denying that there will be Hindus that are very serious but here in the UK, they are just desperate to get away from their culture and language. The language bit isn't even controversial, just look at your celebrities and their desperation to speak in English when you own language has been around for longer

 

[Bewal Express]

What?!. Most bar owners are sikh and they frequent bard and nightclubs either with turbans or their bangles.

Hindus that practice their religion are very serious and follow it to their book.

Hinduphobia ought to stop!

Some Sikhs are heavy drinkers but you can't integrate as well if you have a turban on. Maybe it's the reason so many young Sikhs are ditching the Turban, it's far less frequent than when I was growing up.

 

[Major]

For me it's the Hindus. They have little or no love for their religion or language and will do whatever the locals do. I have never seen a group so desperate to get away from themselves. The Sikhs find it difficult because they do stand out and have had to stop wearing the turban to fit in. We as Muslims have the most difficulty because we don't drink, club or buy into the anything goes culture. I think the most important thing is the shared values of tolerance, respecting differences and following the law.

You cant judge sikhs based on their turban, thats abit offensive.

Firstly, i noticed more turban sikhs in Canada than in India and I am not even exaggerating. Also, I haven't seen anyone more proud of their culture than the the sikhs. Even if they are 3rd or 4th generation, the women wear their punjabi dresses and the children speak their punjabi language.

As for the ones that wear turban, they proudly wear the turban on western clothing and dont find it embarrassing.

As for the ones that do take of the turban, its not because they are embarrassed but because you have to take special care of the long hair. It needs to be cleaned regularly and be kept in a bun. The reason they wear a turban is to hide the hair under the cloth, if there is no hair than they wont wear turban.

Sikhs take soo much pride that they have even made a special request in the army that they should be allowed to wear their turban.

 

[SpiritOf1903]

Some Sikhs are heavy drinkers but you can't integrate as well if you have a turban on. Maybe it's the reason so many young Sikhs are ditching the Turban, it's far less frequent than when I was growing up.

You sure this isn't selective judgement?. Because it's more prevalent than ever and in woke society, used as a bargaining chip.

It's Muslims that through a multitude of reasons, some self-inflicted, others not that has created a stigma.

If you knew the history of sikhism I'm not sure you'd be such a blase cheerleader while admonishing an ancient religion in Hinduism.

 

[NishanKonar]

You sure this isn't selective judgement?. Because it's more prevalent than ever and in woke society, used as a bargaining chip.

It's Muslims that through a multitude of reasons, some self-inflicted, others not that has created a stigma.

If you knew the history of sikhism I'm not sure you'd be such a blase cheerleader while admonishing an ancient religion in Hinduism.

Appreciate this comment. Wish more Pakistanis look at Hinduism with more open mind instead of their jaundiced outlook . That wud help foster better community relations

 

[Bewal Express]

You cant judge sikhs based on their turban, thats abit offensive.

Firstly, i noticed more turban sikhs in Canada than in India and I am not even exaggerating. Also, I haven't seen anyone more proud of their culture than the the sikhs. Even if they are 3rd or 4th generation, the women wear their punjabi dresses and the children speak their punjabi language.

As for the ones that wear turban, they proudly wear the turban on western clothing and dont find it embarrassing.

As for the ones that do take of the turban, its not because they are embarrassed but because you have to take special care of the long hair. It needs to be cleaned regularly and be kept in a bun. The reason they wear a turban is to hide the hair under the cloth, if there is no hair than they wont wear turban.

Sikhs take soo much pride that they have even made a special request in the army that they should be allowed to wear their turban.

As far as I know the turban is at the heart of the Sikh identity so if you don't wear it then you have compromised. Whether the ones that don't wear the turban are good or bad is not for me to judge.
All I can tell you is that the numbers wearing the turban is lower than when I grew up. That isn't a scientific survey but that is an anecdotal observation.

 

[Major]

As far as I know the turban is at the heart of the Sikh identity so if you don't wear it then you have compromised. Whether the ones that don't wear the turban are good or bad is not for me to judge.
All I can tell you is that the numbers wearing the turban is lower than when I grew up. That isn't a scientific survey but that is an anecdotal observation.

but your talking from UK's observation, while my observation of Brampton differ. In Canada I think they are assimilated quite better. No idea in UK however

 

[Bewal Express]

You sure this isn't selective judgement?. Because it's more prevalent than ever and in woke society, used as a bargaining chip.

It's Muslims that through a multitude of reasons, some self-inflicted, others not that has created a stigma.

If you knew the history of sikhism I'm not sure you'd be such a blase cheerleader while admonishing an ancient religion in Hinduism.

As a proud Muslim i see more than ever a real desire to show our Muslim identity. Its a real source of pride that no matter how others want to portray us, we are proud of our identity.

 

[Bewal Express]

but your talking from UK's observation, while my observation of Brampton differ. In Canada I think they are assimilated quite better. No idea in UK however

The Sikhs are integrated much more than us. Any community that can eat and drink what the locals will always fit in quicker. It was an observation about the decline in wearing Turbans that is the interesting part.

 

[cricketjoshila]

So, do you speak for all Hindus? LOL.

Vast majority of the Hindus I have seen in Canada are non-practicing.

What is a practising and what is a non practising hindu?

 

[cricketjoshila]

Like I said before - most overseas Pakistanis have extreme inferiority complex due to Hindus - due to their rising stature and success in the West - compared to the extreme backwardness and negative stereotypes of their own community.

So they try to cope by saying Hindu success is bcoz they dont value their own culture while Muslims are backward and laggards bcoz they care more about their religion. Funny excuse but what else do you expect from losers !

Basically this.

Also they have little idea about Hinduism and hindus.

Someone said most hindus are non practising. Now what the hell is a practising hindu and what the hell is a non practising hindu?

 

[Bewal Express]

Basically this.

Also they have little idea about Hinduism and hindus.

Someone said most hindus are non practising. Now what the hell is a practising hindu and what the hell is a non practising hindu?

I am a bit confused. If you can't distinguish between practicing and non practicing then should the term Hinduism exist. Let me give you a simple example, a practicing Muslim prays 5 times a day( or has the niyaat to do so), fasts in the Month of Ramadan and gives Zakat. Now there will most of us that will try to do all these things but may miss bits. On the other hand, if you have no intention or don't do any of these then you are non practicing. Are you saying in Hinduism anything goes

 

[sweep_shot]

I am a bit confused. If you can't distinguish between practicing and non practicing then should the term Hinduism exist. Let me give you a simple example, a practicing Muslim prays 5 times a day( or has the niyaat to do so), fasts in the Month of Ramadan and gives Zakat. Now there will most of us that will try to do all these things but may miss bits. On the other hand, if you have no intention or don't do any of these then you are non practicing. Are you saying in Hinduism anything goes

Right. Well said.

It seems like everything is permissible for them (except for beef maybe).

 

[SalimBhai]

Alcoholism and sleeping around are also part of western values. Not basic as you are implying but part of.

People/Cultures all over the world produce and consume alcohol. Everyone sleeps around. Its just more open in the west. Go to Bahrain nd you will see all the frustrated saudis sleeping around with prostitutes. Go to Thailand you will see desks all over in the right light district. Hell Pakistan has a thriving red light district.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Right. Well said.

It seems like everything is permissible for them (except for beef maybe).

They cannot define Hinduism because it is not an Ism to begin with.

What you call Hinduism today is a marriage between Vedic Culture and the native culture of Mainland India. Hinduism of today is a mix of various local beliefs which have been Sanskritized around 8th and 9th centuries.

India is an agrarian economy and a cow/bull is a very important animal to them. Hence it is given a special status of Mother. It feeds you as an infant and also ploughs the land and feeds us when we are past the infant stage.

 

[SalimBhai]

When you mean assimilation, do you mean we copy exactly as them?

So, if westerners drink alcohol and sleep around with women, should Muslims do the same? That's not assimilation. That's subservience and even inferiority complex.

I believe as long as a citizen is law-abiding and productive, assimilation is not necessary. Even those who were born in the west have different ways of doing things (Mormons, Amish, ultraorthodox Jews, cultural Christians etc.).

In my 35 years of living in the USA nobody has forced a drink on me, Maybe other than last year of high school. If you don't assimilate you develop other issues. You and your views for a person living in the west are not normal.

 

[the Great Khan]

I have ti disagree with the Hindus assimilating part. I haven't seen it. They may put on an air of "hey we are like you" but I know them very well here. I have sat with them are with them travelled with them and done business with them. In 30 plus years I have.seen secular ones and non. And none have given up their culture..

Sikhs are the same..they may change their names to fit in but when it really comes down to it they stick to their culture. Indeed culture is stronger than their religion though..inmho..

 

[the Great Khan]

9n the contrary I have seen them increasingly assert their culture..e.g.diwali days at work etc..

 

[Romali_rotti]

9n the contrary I have seen them increasingly assert their culture..e.g.diwali days at work etc..

Hi TGK,

I have to disagree, celebrating Diwali or sharing sweets with a colleague or friend is not assertion. Assertion is more along the lines of things like wanting to introduce Sharia Law, Threatening ppl's lives because they spoke about the prophet as it is Blasphemy etc.

Hindus/Sikhs assimilate and practice their beliefs successfully in the west as they do not show the fanatical behavior which certain Muslims are prone to..

 

[MenInG]

Hi TGK,

I have to disagree, celebrating Diwali or sharing sweets with a colleague or friend is not assertion. Assertion is more along the lines of things like wanting to introduce Sharia Law, Threatening ppl's lives because they spoke about the prophet as it is Blasphemy etc.

Hindus/Sikhs assimilate and practice their beliefs successfully in the west as they do not show the fanatical behavior which certain Muslims are prone to..

How about simply obeying the laws of the land, whilst expressing your religious sentiments as you want?

 

[Romali_rotti]

How about simply obeying the laws of the land, whilst expressing your religious sentiments as you want?

What you stated is the ideal solution.


However, unfortunately there would be a section of muslims that would disregard the law of the land, when it comes to certain issues.

 

[MenInG]

What you stated is the ideal solution.


However, unfortunately there would be a section of muslims that would disregard the law of the land, when it comes to certain issues.

As would Hispanics/Indians/Native Americans etc - you cannot pin this on Muslims

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

People/Cultures all over the world produce and consume alcohol. Everyone sleeps around. Its just more open in the west. Go to Bahrain nd you will see all the frustrated saudis sleeping around with prostitutes. Go to Thailand you will see desks all over in the right light district. Hell Pakistan has a thriving red light district.

I said values, not that only western people do it. Western culture accepts alcohol consumption and sleeping around as part of their individual rights and they are not seen as bad for society. In Islamic culture both are. I'm not saying western culture is wrong either, I am just pointing out the difference.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I have ti disagree with the Hindus assimilating part. I haven't seen it. They may put on an air of "hey we are like you" but I know them very well here. I have sat with them are with them travelled with them and done business with them. In 30 plus years I have.seen secular ones and non. And none have given up their culture..

Sikhs are the same..they may change their names to fit in but when it really comes down to it they stick to their culture. Indeed culture is stronger than their religion though..inmho..

How many Hindu girls did you get to meet? Just asking because I knew quite a few and they tended to marry out, and even in British society, just take a look at all the more famous ones. Most of them don't seem to think it's progress to marry within their own 'successful' community.

 

[Robert]

Fair points, where do you feel Muslims are going wrong as far as assimilating in the West go?

What in the UK is causing the struggle to assimilate ?

I would say >99% of Muslims assimilate.

Where I would argue a very few fail to assimilate is by elevating Islam above British culture, rather than accepting that Islam is part of an evolving British culture.

Then there are the vanishingly small number of terrorist murderers. But they are all either dead or in Category-A jails now. If the so-called conveyer belt theory of radicalisation had any validity, the conveyer has stopped.

 

[Romali_rotti]

As would Hispanics/Indians/Native Americans etc - you cannot pin this on Muslims

Ofcourse and apologies if it sounded like I was saying that Hindu's & Sikhs are not involved in crimes.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Where I would argue a very few fail to assimilate is by elevating Islam above British culture, rather than accepting that Islam is part of an evolving British culture.

.

Elevating your beliefs above the culture of the land is not the issue imo, me and my sister were raised in the US and my parents felt the Indian values were better than the American ones.

However they assimilated by interacting with their American friends, celebrated Christmas, Thanksgiving and other holidays etc with their friends and were very hospitable and understanding towards them.

Not once did a religious conversation come up, were my parents would tell their friends about their religion or way of life was better and they need to become a Hindu. Even at times when their odd Christian friends would try to do the 'Abhrahamic' thing and try to convert them, they would politely say it is not for them and wish them well.

You can have your beliefs, however the lack of tolerance and acceptance is what causes the backward mentality.

 

[Thulsa]

Elevating your beliefs above the culture of the land is not the issue imo, me and my sister were raised in the US and my parents felt the Indian values were better than the American ones.

However they assimilated by interacting with their American friends, celebrated Christmas, Thanksgiving and other holidays etc with their friends and were very hospitable and understanding towards them.

Not once did a religious conversation come up, were my parents would tell their friends about their religion or way of life was better and they need to become a Hindu. Even at times when their odd Christian friends would try to do the 'Abhrahamic' thing and try to convert them, they would politely say it is not for them and wish them well.

You can have your beliefs, however the lack of tolerance and acceptance is what causes the backward mentality.

I would add education disparity - since 3 ‘types’ are called out in this thread, there is a gulf in literacy and education levels which is reflected in various societal barometers like income, corporate progression etc between people who identify as Hindus and Sikh’s versus Muslims.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Elevating your beliefs above the culture of the land is not the issue imo, me and my sister were raised in the US and my parents felt the Indian values were better than the American ones.

However they assimilated by interacting with their American friends, celebrated Christmas, Thanksgiving and other holidays etc with their friends and were very hospitable and understanding towards them.

Not once did a religious conversation come up, were my parents would tell their friends about their religion or way of life was better and they need to become a Hindu. Even at times when their odd Christian friends would try to do the 'Abhrahamic' thing and try to convert them, they would politely say it is not for them and wish them well.

You can have your beliefs, however the lack of tolerance and acceptance is what causes the backward mentality.

What makes you think Muslims go telling their British friends and associates about their religion? It's usually the whites who will ask about it in my experience. Why do you do this? What day is your version of Christmas, etc. The vast majority of Muslims abroad have little interest in converting anyone, although there are definitely fundamentalists who believe it's their duty, just like the there are Jehovah's Witnesses who are the same.

Do you have much interraction with Muslims at all, or do you just get your impressions online?

 

[Bewal Express]

I am not sure where this debate is going but from my experience the Hindu community has most lost its identity and language because they don't see any of the values that are worth teaching to their children.

 

[Thulsa]

I am not sure where this debate is going but from my experience the Hindu community has most lost its identity and language because they don't see any of the values that are worth teaching to their children.

I find that comment quite offensive. In my experience I find that Hindu’s etc are proud of their heritage and do observe it in their life but, and this is key, are able to strike that balance between the two more.

And again, in my view it comes down to education.

 

[cricketjoshila]

I am a bit confused. If you can't distinguish between practicing and non practicing then should the term Hinduism exist. Let me give you a simple example, a practicing Muslim prays 5 times a day( or has the niyaat to do so), fasts in the Month of Ramadan and gives Zakat. Now there will most of us that will try to do all these things but may miss bits. On the other hand, if you have no intention or don't do any of these then you are non practicing. Are you saying in Hinduism anything goes

As i said, we are not muslims and hence don't have these kinds of rules.

The only compulsory thing is to have belief and faith in the sanatan dharma.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Right. Well said.

It seems like everything is permissible for them (except for beef maybe).

Again. You are judging another religion through your own. If i start judging Islam from a hindu point of view then it will appear strange to me too.

 

[Bewal Express]

As i said, we are not muslims and hence don't have these kinds of rules.

The only compulsory thing is to have belief and faith in the sanatan dharma.

Which means what exactly. A religion has rules and if you adhere to them you are basically practicing and if you don't, you aren't.

 

[cricketjoshila]

I am not sure where this debate is going but from my experience the Hindu community has most lost its identity and language because they don't see any of the values that are worth teaching to their children.

Because you know zilch. Not that i am shocked at this post coming from you.

 

[Bewal Express]

I find that comment quite offensive. In my experience I find that Hindu’s etc are proud of their heritage and do observe it in their life but, and this is key, are able to strike that balance between the two more.

And again, in my view it comes down to education.

Not from experience. The ones I see are just desperate to be like the locals mark 2.0
If a set off peoples sees themselves as inferior in their practice and language then it's not my fault. What I am saying is anecdotal and may not be true on the bigger scale

 

[cricketjoshila]

Which means what exactly. A religion has rules and if you adhere to them you are basically practicing and if you don't, you aren't.

This is not a qualification test that you do XYZ and you qualify if you don't then you are disqualified.

All that is needed is to have faith in the sanatan dharma either Sagun or Nirgun. Ofcourse Sagun worship is further divided in many other aspects like Vaishnav, Shaiva, Shakta etc etc, with their separate rituals.

If as a vaishnavite i believe and have faith in Mahavishnu as the ultimate power. That faith is enough for me to be a vaishnavite hindu.

 

[Bewal Express]

Because you know zilch. Not that i am shocked at this post coming from you.

It's not my fault that your own people don't see any value in your beliefs, whatever they maybe. Ask them not me.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I find that comment quite offensive. In my experience I find that Hindu’s etc are proud of their heritage and do observe it in their life but, and this is key, are able to strike that balance between the two more.

And again, in my view it comes down to education.

You only find it offensive because some part of it must strike a chord somewhere. If Hindus were so intelligent and confident in their own beliefs, why would they care what people from "inferior gene pool" would think?

Also when you talk of inferior/superior gene pools, you might want to consider there is more than just intellect to consider. You could have a four foot skinny genius at one side, and a six foot athlete on the other. Which one is inferior or superior? Would depend on where you stand on what matters.

 

[Champ_Pal]

I would say >99% of Muslims assimilate.

Where I would argue a very few fail to assimilate is by elevating Islam above British culture, rather than accepting that Islam is part of an evolving British culture.

Then there are the vanishingly small number of terrorist murderers. But they are all either dead or in Category-A jails now. If the so-called conveyer belt theory of radicalisation had any validity, the conveyer has stopped.

Just about every Muslim will put Islam above British culture. From my experience on listening to some scholars, Islam does not evolve with culture.

 

[Champ_Pal]

We are proud to be Muslims and happy to hold onto our religion and heritage. Better that than sell yourself in pursuit of money. I suppose when you have nothing to hang onto than that's what you do, you look for people that are superior to you and you ape them.

So you think people like me are sellouts. Quite a statement.

Just to let you know, our ideas evolve with time and everyone has to do that. Otherwise, we will be left biting the dust.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Just about every Muslim will put Islam above British culture. From my experience on listening to some scholars, Islam does not evolve with culture.

Then quite obviously there isn't much of a clash between Islam and British culture, otherwise they couldn't live in Britain. That is going by your own logic.

 

[JaDed]

I am not sure where this debate is going but from my experience the Hindu community has most lost its identity and language because they don't see any of the values that are worth teaching to their children.

What was the language of Hindus?

 

[Champ_Pal]

Then quite obviously there isn't much of a clash between Islam and British culture, otherwise they couldn't live in Britain. That is going by your own logic.

Ask your dear friend KKWC.

Putting religion over British culture is what creates clashes, friction and confusion for young Muslims.

For every Muslim, Islam is more important than any man made culture.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Ask your dear friend KKWC.

Putting religion over British culture is what creates clashes, friction and confusion for young Muslims.

For every Muslim, Islam is more important than any man made culture.

But I just told you, according to your own logic, there is obviously not much of a clash between Islam and British culture otherwise Muslims couldn't stay in Britain. You did say - and I quote - Just about every Muslim will put Islam above British culture

So where is the clash then? Can you give me an example of British culture which a Muslim cannot live with?

 

[Champ_Pal]

But I just told you, according to your own logic, there is obviously not much of a clash between Islam and British culture otherwise Muslims couldn't stay in Britain. You did say - and I quote - Just about every Muslim will put Islam above British culture

So where is the clash then? Can you give me an example of British culture which a Muslim cannot live with?

What? Living in Britain does not mean there is no problem with Muslims putting Islam above British culture and law. You know the truth, but just playing dodo to troll.