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Joe Biden: massacres of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire constituted genocide (#24)

Bhaijaan

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A Turkish F-16 fighter has shot down an Armenian Air Force Su-25, Yerevan has announced. It comes three days after a military conflict between Armenia and neighboring Azerbaijan broke out over the disputed Nagorno-Karabakh region.

Officials in Yerevan said the incident took place in Armenian airspace and that the pilot of the Su-25 pilot was killed.

The attack comes hours after Ankara said that it would help Azerbaijan repel “Armenian aggression,” offering both diplomatic and military assistance. Armenia said earlier that it was prepared to use Russian-made Iskander ballistic missiles in the disputed Nagorno-Karabakh region if Turkey deploys its American-built F-16 fighter jets in support of the Azeri offensive.

https://www.rt.com/news/502044-turkey-nagorno-karabakh-armenia-jet/
 
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Boy these Sukhois have really taken a beating from the F-16s in the last couple of years.


India - Armenia bhai bhai
 
Ok so have cleaned up thread. Lets stick to the topic and any claims etc - back up with links etc.
 
https://greekcitytimes.com/2020/09/30/turkish-warplane-shoots-down-armenian-jet/

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Armenian?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Armenian</a> Su-25 was shot down by a <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Turkish?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Turkish</a> F-16 that took off from the Ganja airbase in Azerbaijan. <a href="https://twitter.com/ArmeniaMODTeam?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@ArmeniaMODTeam</a></p>— Government of Armenia (@armgov) <a href="https://twitter.com/armgov/status/1310948115818704896?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 29, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Turkey has got intself involved, if Russia backs of now, Turkey will become the numero uno in the region.
 
OPs link is from Russia Today - Russia is Armenia's biggest ally and the tweets posted are from the Armenian government. Turkey itself denies it they shot down anything.
 
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Armenian?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Armenian</a> Su-25 was shot down by a <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Turkish?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Turkish</a> F-16 that took off from the Ganja airbase in Azerbaijan. <a href="https://twitter.com/ArmeniaMODTeam?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@ArmeniaMODTeam</a></p>— Government of Armenia (@armgov) <a href="https://twitter.com/armgov/status/1310948115818704896?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 29, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Lol if someone reads the comments under this tweet, they would think the war is between Azerbaijan and India not Armenia.

This is cringe worthy tbh.
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Armenian?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Armenian</a> Su-25 was shot down by a <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Turkish?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Turkish</a> F-16 that took off from the Ganja airbase in Azerbaijan. <a href="https://twitter.com/ArmeniaMODTeam?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@ArmeniaMODTeam</a></p>— Government of Armenia (@armgov) <a href="https://twitter.com/armgov/status/1310948115818704896?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 29, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Lol if someone reads the comments under this tweet, they would think the war is between Azerbaijan and India not Armenia.

This is cringe worthy tbh.

Just shows you the hatred of Indians for anything muslims. They are a lot of times part of anti-muslim groups on social media (and might be in real life as well but thats another discussion) and they attack in an organised manner.

Indians are the biggest organized group of Islamophobes in the world right now. And this should be accepted and highlighted by all people including Indians who are truly secular.
 
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Just shows you the hatred of Indians for anything muslims. They are a lot of times part of anti-muslim groups on social media (and might be in real life as well but thats another discussion) and they attack in an organised manner.

Indians are the biggest organized group of Islamophobes in the world right now. And this should be accepted and highlighted by all people including Indians who are truly secular.

Funny thing is we had some Indian posters here claiming that India is some sort of safe haven for Shia Muslims and their only problem is "Sunni extremists" lol.

Azerbaijan is 85% Shia but yet that doesn't stop Indians on social media from calling for it's destruction. I hope this makes people realize that an average Islamaphobe doesn't care about the sect, they hate all Muslims equally.
 
Are the Armenians getting their political propaganda from India? Next they will be doing a digital strike. :modi
 
Funny thing is we had some Indian posters here claiming that India is some sort of safe haven for Shia Muslims and their only problem is "Sunni extremists" lol.

Azerbaijan is 85% Shia but yet that doesn't stop Indians on social media from calling for it's destruction. I hope this makes people realize that an average Islamaphobe doesn't care about the sect, they hate all Muslims equally.
Azerbaijan i guess is a secular country. Dont know why the Muslim hatred
 
Are the Armenians getting their political propaganda from India? Next they will be doing a digital strike. :modi

Oh no, they atleast acknowledged their plane going down. The Indians would refuse it even now, thank goodness for the video of their pilot sipping dhoodh pati
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Armenian?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Armenian</a> Su-25 was shot down by a <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Turkish?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Turkish</a> F-16 that took off from the Ganja airbase in Azerbaijan. <a href="https://twitter.com/ArmeniaMODTeam?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@ArmeniaMODTeam</a></p>— Government of Armenia (@armgov) <a href="https://twitter.com/armgov/status/1310948115818704896?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 29, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Lol if someone reads the comments under this tweet, they would think the war is between Azerbaijan and India not Armenia.

This is cringe worthy tbh.

:91: :91: :91:

Gotta laugh at our keyboard warriors par excellence.

Anyway, these two are action countries - Armenia and Azerbaijan. Not the noise types like India and Pakistan.

May the casualties be down to the bare minimum, if at all.
 
International politics is muddy and hard to understand. Turkey supports Iran when it comes to Saudi Arabia, but the same Iran is supposedly supporting Armenia. Turkey and Israel are almost poles apart and chief enemies yet Azerbaijan is a major trade partner of Israel and also uses Israeli tech. Hindustan/Israel are literally the second most annoying partnership after the Pak/China dynamics yet they find each other in opposite sides in a raging conflict (not talking about government stance in this case).

This F16 shooting down a Russian plane could also be a ploy to get Russia active in the war if it already isn't active - a false flag operation from the playbook of our neighbours. I honestly think now that breaking of the USSR has given rise to even more anarchy in the region and nothing else. Just a few decades all of these were just states controlled by the greater Russian state but now they just engage in wars and the economic situation hasn't really improved of any of the state despite having abundant natural resources.

Nation states are truly confusing, the world should now shift to ideological empires where people thinking and believing the same should just group together despite their physical distances.
 
Nation states are truly confusing, the world should now shift to ideological empires where people thinking and believing the same should just group together despite their physical distances.

"Nation states" are also "ideological empires". You just have to understand that the ideology is for the power elite to keep the nations at war so that they can justify their domestic dominance. As their goal is to retain power, they often end up in seemingly contradictory wars as you point out.
 
International politics is muddy and hard to understand. Turkey supports Iran when it comes to Saudi Arabia, but the same Iran is supposedly supporting Armenia. Turkey and Israel are almost poles apart and chief enemies yet Azerbaijan is a major trade partner of Israel and also uses Israeli tech. Hindustan/Israel are literally the second most annoying partnership after the Pak/China dynamics yet they find each other in opposite sides in a raging conflict (not talking about government stance in this case).

This F16 shooting down a Russian plane could also be a ploy to get Russia active in the war if it already isn't active - a false flag operation from the playbook of our neighbours. I honestly think now that breaking of the USSR has given rise to even more anarchy in the region and nothing else. Just a few decades all of these were just states controlled by the greater Russian state but now they just engage in wars and the economic situation hasn't really improved of any of the state despite having abundant natural resources.

Nation states are truly confusing, the world should now shift to ideological empires where people thinking and believing the same should just group together despite their physical distances.

Ideological empires won't and don't work now. Example is Bangladesh and Pakistan or the numerous failed Pan Arab-Muslim states in the 60s. Nations now are built on ethnicity. Even if you made a state on ideology it would fail. A nation like Saudi Arabia practices religion vastly different to that of Pakistan, despite our adoption and love of Wahabism. You can't get ten people in a room to agree on what Sharia is never mind billions. The same for Christianity btw.
 
Ideological empires won't and don't work now. Example is Bangladesh and Pakistan or the numerous failed Pan Arab-Muslim states in the 60s. Nations now are built on ethnicity. Even if you made a state on ideology it would fail. A nation like Saudi Arabia practices religion vastly different to that of Pakistan, despite our adoption and love of Wahabism. You can't get ten people in a room to agree on what Sharia is never mind billions. The same for Christianity btw.

Ideology isn't necessarily about religion, it could be anything. It could be far-left, liberal, spaghetti monster chutulu controlling the world, etc.

Ethnicity doesn't work because that's a gross generalization of people, based on how they look and their place of birth. It's akin to saying that all Punjabi people will always think and believe in the same thing and there's no room for any divergent opinion.

Pakistan hasn't failed yet, and if there isn't much success it's due to the fact that the basic ideology of the founders was never really practiced. Israel is a shining example of an ideological country doing great.
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">So TV9 Bharatvarsh airs 'ARMA3’ video game clip as Armenia shooting down Azerbaijani MiG-25 with an “exclusive” watermark on the clip. <br>( It was first pointed out by <a href="https://twitter.com/livefist?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@livefist</a> ) <a href="https://t.co/eVULE0Qldu">pic.twitter.com/eVULE0Qldu</a></p>— Mohammed Zubair (@zoo_bear) <a href="https://twitter.com/zoo_bear/status/1314540557620846593?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 9, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/biden-says-1915-massacres-armenians-constitute-genocide-2021-04-24/

U.S. President Joe Biden on Saturday said the 1915 massacres of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire constituted genocide, a historic declaration that infuriated Turkey and is set to further strain already frayed ties between the two NATO allies.

The largely symbolic move, breaking away from decades of carefully calibrated language from the White House, will likely to be celebrated by the Armenian diaspora in the United States, but comes at a time when Ankara and Washington have deep policy disagreements over a host of issues.

Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu said Turkey "entirely rejects" the U.S. decision which he said was based "solely on populism".

"We have nothing to learn from anybody on our own past. Political opportunism is the greatest betrayal to peace and justice," Cavusoglu said on Twitter.

In his statement, Biden said the American people honor "all those Armenians who perished in the genocide that began 106 years ago today."

"Over the decades Armenian immigrants have enriched the United States in countless ways, but they have never forgotten the tragic history ... We honor their story. We see that pain. We affirm the history. We do this not to cast blame but to ensure that what happened is never repeated," Biden said.

In comments that sought to soften the blow, a senior administration official told reporters that Washington encouraged Armenia and Turkey to pursue reconciliation and continues to view Ankara as a critical NATO ally. read more

For decades, measures recognizing the Armenian genocide stalled in the U.S. Congress and U.S. presidents have refrained from calling it that, stymied by concerns about relations with Turkey and intense lobbying by Ankara.

Turkey accepts that many Armenians living in the Ottoman Empire were killed in clashes with Ottoman forces during World War One, but contests the figures and denies the killings were systematically orchestrated and constitute a genocide.

Ties between Ankara and Washington have been strained over issues ranging from Turkey's purchase of Russian S-400 defense systems - over which it was the target of U.S. sanctions - to policy differences in Syria, human rights and legal matters.

Biden’s declaration follows a non-binding resolution by the U.S. Senate adopted unanimously in 2019 recognizing the killings as genocide.
 


For anyone who does not know before the Armenian genocide, there was a genocide of Muslims in the Balkans. These were not settlers, these were locals who had converted to Islam during Ottoman rule. No in the West talks about this, so at least the Muslims should know.

According to historian Justin McCarthy, between the years 1821–1922, from the beginning of the Greek War of Independence to the end of the Ottoman Empire, five million Muslims were driven from their lands and another five and a half million died, some of them killed in wars, others perishing as refugees from starvation or disease.[1]

Total Muslim deaths and refugees during these centuries are estimated to be several millions.[95] It is estimated that during the last decade of the Ottoman Empire (1912–1922) when the Balkan wars, World War I and war of Independence took place, close to 4 million Muslims, civilian and military, died in the area of modern Turkey.[96]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims_during_Ottoman_contraction#Death_toll
 
For anyone who does not know before the Armenian genocide, there was a genocide of Muslims in the Balkans. These were not settlers, these were locals who had converted to Islam during Ottoman rule. No in the West talks about this, so at least the Muslims should know.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims_during_Ottoman_contraction#Death_toll

That’s astounding. There are big gaps in my understanding of European history, particularly south-east Europe.

The process of Balkanisation - splintering of nations and moving national boundaries - has caused immense harm.

Another great post from [MENTION=148149]Gharib Aadmi[/MENTION].
 
Wasn't Armenian genocide just similar to trail of tears against NA? Ie forced death March to drive people put of thier lands

The Trail of Tears didn’t lead into a desert. There were still animals to hunt and rivers to drink from. It killed around 10,000 people. The Armenian Genocide drove a million human souls into unsurvivable conditions.
 
Ideology isn't necessarily about religion, it could be anything. It could be far-left, liberal, spaghetti monster chutulu controlling the world, etc.

Ethnicity doesn't work because that's a gross generalization of people, based on how they look and their place of birth. It's akin to saying that all Punjabi people will always think and believe in the same thing and there's no room for any divergent opinion.

Pakistan hasn't failed yet, and if there isn't much success it's due to the fact that the basic ideology of the founders was never really practiced. Israel is a shining example of an ideological country doing great.

Liberalism never killed anyone. It sets people free from tyranny because it makes people more important than ideas.

Totalitarianism of left and right is what kills because it makes ideas more important than people.
 
While we are at it maybe Biden should recognize the following genocide as well:
1) Genocide of Congo locals by Belgium
2) genocide of Algerians by French (they still keep the heads of the dead in louvre)
3) Genocide of Sikhs and other locals in the sub-continent by the British
4) Genocide of native Americans by British (now American) colonies.
5) Genocide of the locals in Latin America and fall of Aztecs by Spain.
6) Genocide of Incans by Spain

There are many more, too much to count, in which US and their direct allies were involved. No word from the police nation of the world. Biden is just a military dictator the way he acts.
 
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/turkey-says-it-will-respond-time-outrageous-us-genocide-statement-2021-04-25/

U.S. President Joe Biden's declaration that massacres of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire constituted genocide is "simply outrageous" and Turkey will respond over coming months, Turkey's presidential spokesman said on Sunday.

Biden broke on Saturday with decades of carefully calibrated White House comments over the 1915 killings, delighting Armenia and its diaspora but further straining ties between Washington and Ankara, both members of the NATO military alliance.

"There will be a reaction of different forms and kinds and degrees in coming days and months," Ibrahim Kalin, President Tayyip Erdogan's spokesman and adviser, told Reuters in an interview.

Kalin did not specify whether Ankara would restrict U.S. access to the Incirlik air base in southern Turkey, which has been used to support the international coalition fighting Islamic State in Syria and Iraq, among measures it may take.

After other Turkish officials swiftly condemned Biden's statement on Saturday, Erdogan would address the issue after a cabinet meeting on Monday, Kalin said. "At a time and place that we consider to be appropriate, we will continue to respond to this very unfortunate, unfair statement," he said.

Turkey accepts that many Armenians living in the Ottoman Empire were killed in clashes with Ottoman forces in World War One, but denies the killings were systematically orchestrated and constitute genocide.

For decades, measures recognising the Armenian genocide stalled in the U.S. Congress and most U.S. presidents have refrained from calling it that, held back by concerns about straining relations with Turkey.

But those relations are already troubled. Washington imposed sanctions on Turkey over its purchase of Russian air defences, while Ankara has been angered that the United States has armed Kurdish YPG fighters in Syria and not extradited a U.S.-based cleric Turkey accuses of orchestrating a 2016 coup attempt.

Navigating those disputes will now be even harder, Kalin said. "Everything that we conduct with the United States will be under the spell of this very unfortunate statement," he said.

Kalin said Turkey's parliament is expected to make a statement this week. Analysts say lawmakers may hit back rhetorically against Biden by classifying the treatment of Native Americans by European settlers as genocide.

As well as limiting access to Incirlik, Turkey also has options to reduce military coordination with the United States in northern Syria and Iraq or scale down diplomatic efforts to support Afghan peace talks, said Ozgur Unluhisarcikli, director of the German Marshall Fund research group in Ankara.

In reality, though, Erdogan's options are limited as he is already battling one of the highest rates of daily COVID-19 cases globally and has seen the lira currency fall close to all-time lows against the dollar last week.

"This is a difficult period for Turkey and it's not a time when Turkey wants to pick a fight with anyone, let alone the United States," Unluhisarcikli said.

Kalin said U.S. officials had told Turkey the declaration would not provide any legal basis for potential reparation claims.

Nevertheless, Erdogan told the U.S. president when they spoke by phone on Friday, their first conversation since Biden took office three months ago, that it would be a "colossal mistake" to go ahead with his statement.

"To reduce all that to one word and try to implicate that Turks were involved, our Ottoman ancestors were involved in genocidal acts, is simply outrageous," Kalin said.

"It's not supported by historical fact".
 
Armenian dospora in US is pretty strong

Domestic politics

Cause in the US we were taught of this event as a genocide US only showed that careful attitude at the international level not in the US
Now it's changing
 
While we are at it maybe Biden should recognize the following genocide as well:
1) Genocide of Congo locals by Belgium
2) genocide of Algerians by French (they still keep the heads of the dead in louvre)
3) Genocide of Sikhs and other locals in the sub-continent by the British
4) Genocide of native Americans by British (now American) colonies.
5) Genocide of the locals in Latin America and fall of Aztecs by Spain.
6) Genocide of Incans by Spain

There are many more, too much to count, in which US and their direct allies were involved. No word from the police nation of the world. Biden is just a military dictator the way he acts.

We could list many more.

Genocide of the Native Indians continued with Yanks. They even inacted a law to kill buffalos to help with taking out the natives.

The Yanks have no leg to stand on when telling others they commited genocide. It would be like Cobra lecturing a grass snake.
 
While we are at it maybe Biden should recognize the following genocide as well:
1) Genocide of Congo locals by Belgium
2) genocide of Algerians by French (they still keep the heads of the dead in louvre)
3) Genocide of Sikhs and other locals in the sub-continent by the British
4) Genocide of native Americans by British (now American) colonies.
5) Genocide of the locals in Latin America and fall of Aztecs by Spain.
6) Genocide of Incans by Spain

There are many more, too much to count, in which US and their direct allies were involved. No word from the police nation of the world. Biden is just a military dictator the way he acts.

So because several bad things happened, it is wrong to commemorate one of them?

There are around a million Armenian-Americans. Many of note in the scientific, business and entertainment communities. Biden is recalling their history on the international day of mourning for that genocide.
 
We could list many more.

Genocide of the Native Indians continued with Yanks. They even inacted a law to kill buffalos to help with taking out the natives.

The Yanks have no leg to stand on when telling others they commited genocide. It would be like Cobra lecturing a grass snake.

He is comforting a million of his own people, not “telling others”.
 
So because several bad things happened, it is wrong to commemorate one of them?

There are around a million Armenian-Americans. Many of note in the scientific, business and entertainment communities. Biden is recalling their history on the international day of mourning for that genocide.

Million Armenians ? You were there to count million?
You talk about million, i am talking about BILLIONS being murdered by British, spanish and Americans. If Biden wants to recognize Armenian genocide, that’s fair enough, it is indeed loss of human lives which is a big set back for humanity. I am merely pointing out the double standard of the west where they declare genocide for things that serves their geopolitical interest.

If we are fair, we would be banning British, Spanish, and Americans and making them pay for the centuries of genocides over 7 continents. Don’t you think it is time to recognize the Sikh and Sub-continental genocide by the British? Don’t you think Americans should be held accountable for 98% reduction in Native American population? Don’t you think that Spanish should be held accountable for the genocide of two great pan American empires, Inca, Mayan and Aztecs. Also don’t you think Algerians are human beings, who suffered in millions at the hands of French, remains of whom are still being displayed and studied upon at louvre.

I am asking a fair question.
 
Million Armenians ? You were there to count million?
You talk about million, i am talking about BILLIONS being murdered by British, spanish and Americans. If Biden wants to recognize Armenian genocide, that’s fair enough, it is indeed loss of human lives which is a big set back for humanity. I am merely pointing out the double standard of the west where they declare genocide for things that serves their geopolitical interest.

If we are fair, we would be banning British, Spanish, and Americans and making them pay for the centuries of genocides over 7 continents. Don’t you think it is time to recognize the Sikh and Sub-continental genocide by the British? Don’t you think Americans should be held accountable for 98% reduction in Native American population? Don’t you think that Spanish should be held accountable for the genocide of two great pan American empires, Inca, Mayan and Aztecs. Also don’t you think Algerians are human beings, who suffered in millions at the hands of French, remains of whom are still being displayed and studied upon at louvre.

I am asking a fair question.

No, you’re not, in this context. You’re generalising. Biden mentioned Armenian Genocide Day to comfort the one million living Armenian-Americans. He spoke out of love and respect. The Armenian-Americans have lobbied for the recognition of this terrible event for decades.

Both wings of Congress acknowledged the Genocide in 2019, against resistance from Trump.
 
No, you’re not, in this context. You’re generalising. Biden mentioned Armenian Genocide Day to comfort the one million living Armenian-Americans. He spoke out of love and respect. The Armenian-Americans have lobbied for the recognition of this terrible event for decades.

Both wings of Congress acknowledged the Genocide in 2019, against resistance from Trump.

Well, not really generalizing (and also good job in completely ignoring my topic on not recognizing other genocides, which US was part of).
The only reason why Armenian genocide is being recognized is because it serves US's purpose and interest with like minded allies and put their rival nations in context. Similarly, how US doesn't care about Muslims anywhere except Uighur, because it puts China in bad limelight. My friend, that is the only reason for this recognition. If it was Assyrians or Muslims of the Levant, trust me US would not even touch this issue.

Also you didn't answer how come US can't recognize mass genocide by French, Spanish, Americans, British? Is it because they're likeminded ally nations and morality is thrown out of the window?
 
Well, not really generalizing (and also good job in completely ignoring my topic on not recognizing other genocides, which US was part of).
The only reason why Armenian genocide is being recognized is because it serves US's purpose and interest with like minded allies and put their rival nations in context. Similarly, how US doesn't care about Muslims anywhere except Uighur, because it puts China in bad limelight. My friend, that is the only reason for this recognition. If it was Assyrians or Muslims of the Levant, trust me US would not even touch this issue.

Also you didn't answer how come US can't recognize mass genocide by French, Spanish, Americans, British? Is it because they're likeminded ally nations and morality is thrown out of the window?

Hardly, since Turkey is a NATO ally and key to preventing overspill from the Syrian Civil War into Europe. Erdogan was incensed by Biden, as his nation refuses to recognise the genocide on its soil.
 
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https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/vexed-vulnerable-erdogan-avoids-escalating-genocide-dispute-with-biden-2021-04-29/

Despite its fury with the United States for calling the Ottoman massacre of Armenians a genocide, Turkey is for now avoiding a showdown which could hurt its fragile economy and scupper hopes of better ties with U.S.-allied Arab states.

President Tayyip Erdogan angrily condemned Joe Biden's characterisation of the killings a century ago, saying the U.S. president should "look in the mirror" and examine the fate of Native Americans wiped out by settlers who founded his country.

But the usually combative Turkish leader, who has often used foreign disputes to rally domestic support, is more focused on reviving a battered economy which is key to his longterm re-election prospects.

In a largely restrained response, he has taken no concrete retaliatory steps, and addressed the issue just once since Biden's historic declaration on Saturday.

In the same televised speech in which he lashed out at Biden's "baseless, unjust and untrue remarks", Erdogan stressed that the two leaders could forge a new start when they meet in June for the first time since Biden took office.

That softer tone reflects the delicate path Erdogan is treading between fury over the genocide designation and fear of the damage which could be done by a deeper rift with Washington.

It is also consistent with Turkey's broader goal since late last year of mending frayed ties with Western and Arab states, after years of military interventions and assertive foreign policy which increased Ankara's hard power but left it largely isolated in the east Mediterranean and Middle East.

Relations with Washington were already strained by Turkey's purchase of Russian air defences and U.S. support for Syrian Kurdish fighters Ankara says are inextricably linked to militants waging a decades old insurgency in Turkey.

In contrast to his predecessor Donald Trump, who spoke to Erdogan regularly and was largely sympathetic to the Turkish president, Biden has kept his distance and his administration has criticised Ankara's human rights record.

Three months after taking office, Biden had not spoken to Erdogan until last Friday, when he called the Turkish leader to give him advance notice of his genocide declaration.

"Certainly it was not something pleasant," a senior Turkish official with knowledge of the call told Reuters. "Doing this in his first year was a stance that put relations in jeopardy".

At the same time, the official said the phone call "laid the foundations" for the two NATO partners to cooperate in future. "Developments will show how relations will evolve, but it still appears that it can be overcome."

Two other officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, also said Turkey would seek to avoid escalating the dispute with Washington - at least for now. Erdogan's spokesman and national security adviser, Ibrahim Kalin, told Reuters the day after Biden's announcement that Turkey would respond in various ways in the coming months. After 18 years in power, support for Erdogan's Islamist-rooted AK Party has eroded as Turkey's once vibrant economic growth has stalled and it grapples with the COVID-19 pandemic.

Facing elections in 2023, the centenary of the modern Turkish state, Erdogan's chances of heading into a third decade in office rest on his ability to revive the country's fortunes.

Opposition parties say the government mismanaged COVID-19 and erred in selling off $128 billion in foreign currency to stem losses in the lira.

Biden's statement showed Erdogan was too weak to give the U.S. president the response he deserved, said Meral Aksener, head of the centrist nationalist Iyi Party, mocking what she said was Erdogan's uncharacteristic deference.

"The world leader who takes pride in shunning those who upset him has become a very polite, very cute, little darling Mr Erdogan," she said in a speech to party members on Wednesday.

But with the lira not far off a record low against the dollar and COVID-19 rates still perilously high, officials say Erdogan's priority is to avoid further harm.

Ankara is trying to rebuild bridges with the European Union, as well as U.S. allies including Egypt and Saudi Arabia.

"We will act within the framework of the economic conditions during the pandemic and the approach the president signalled to in November about opting for better ties with the European Union, Gulf nations or other problematic regions," a senior security official said.

He said Turkey's policy would be one of 'wait-and-see', until the presidents meet in June.

Sinan Ulgen, head of the Istanbul-based Centre for Economics and Foreign Policy Studies think tank, said those talks would be crucial to shaping Turkey's relationship with Biden.

"The fact that the reaction has been muted until now does not mean it will remain as such in the future," he said.

Nevertheless, the measured response suggested Ankara was avoiding a "conflict-prone foreign policy" which has hurt the economy by putting off foreign investors.

"It's the beginning of a sea change," he said. "It remains to be seen whether this will be sustainable and constitute the main thrust of Turkish foreign policy in the years to come."
 
Have the Zionists made any noise/complaints yet? After all their exclusive claim of genocide in the West has all but ended.
 
Well, not really generalizing (and also good job in completely ignoring my topic on not recognizing other genocides, which US was part of).
The only reason why Armenian genocide is being recognized is because it serves US's purpose and interest with like minded allies and put their rival nations in context. Similarly, how US doesn't care about Muslims anywhere except Uighur, because it puts China in bad limelight. My friend, that is the only reason for this recognition. If it was Assyrians or Muslims of the Levant, trust me US would not even touch this issue.

Also you didn't answer how come US can't recognize mass genocide by French, Spanish, Americans, British? Is it because they're likeminded ally nations and morality is thrown out of the window?

Now the title of the thread has been changed by the mods I suppose I should answer.

I assume the reasons are that

- Algerian-Americans have not lobbied Congress;

- ditto Congolese Americans;

- the British government has never committed a genocide as per the UN definition. There was a series of Victorian-era famines but were due to crop failures and incompetence rather than a deliberate extermination policy. The Blair Government apologised for the Irish Famine as part of the GFA negotiations;

- the Incans are all dead and there is no-one to speak for them.
 
Now the title of the thread has been changed by the mods I suppose I should answer.

I assume the reasons are that

- Algerian-Americans have not lobbied Congress;

- ditto Congolese Americans;

- the British government has never committed a genocide as per the UN definition. There was a series of Victorian-era famines but were due to crop failures and incompetence rather than a deliberate extermination policy. The Blair Government apologised for the Irish Famine as part of the GFA negotiations;

- the Incans are all dead and there is no-one to speak for them.

UN definition was codified in 1948 after WW2, and after the British Empire all but ended. A convenient line in the sand.

The British empire murdered people deliberately. This is a documented fact. An empire doesn't expand through accidental killings.
 
UN definition was codified in 1948 after WW2, and after the British Empire all but ended. A convenient line in the sand.

The British empire murdered people deliberately. This is a documented fact. An empire doesn't expand through accidental killings.

The Empire continued into the early sixties.

The term genocide was coined by a Polish lawyer in 1944 to describe the Holocaust and certain other events such as the Armenian Genocide which had inspired Hitler.

The Genocide Code is one of the pillars of the international liberal rules-based order which brought peace and stability to Europe after centuries of war - with the UN, ICC, Council of Europe, GATT, and EEC/EU precursor treaties.
 
The Empire continued into the early sixties.

The term genocide was coined by a Polish lawyer in 1944 to describe the Holocaust and certain other events such as the Armenian Genocide which had inspired Hitler.

The Genocide Code is one of the pillars of the international liberal rules-based order which brought peace and stability to Europe after centuries of war - with the UN, ICC, Council of Europe, GATT, and EEC/EU precursor treaties.

Well according to the genocide code, right now we have Palestinian genocide by Isreal.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ethnic_Cleansing_of_Palestine

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2339254
 
Now the title of the thread has been changed by the mods I suppose I should answer.

I assume the reasons are that

- Algerian-Americans have not lobbied Congress;

- ditto Congolese Americans;

- the British government has never committed a genocide as per the UN definition. There was a series of Victorian-era famines but were due to crop failures and incompetence rather than a deliberate extermination policy. The Blair Government apologised for the Irish Famine as part of the GFA negotiations;

- the Incans are all dead and there is no-one to speak for them.

Well here is the thing Robert. If it is not in the UN, it is not considered. Why? UN was formed after majority of the genocides I have mentioned. British committed it in the sub-continent (feel free to ask anyone from India, Pakistan, BD or Burma about it). Till this date, the British govt and royals have taken no responsibility. This is just one of the massacre or genocide I am highlighting. British have committed this all over the world.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-war-concentration-camp-mau-mau-a6821756.html

The Algerian govt have indeed lobbied against it but it brought no fruit. The million skulls are still saved in the French Museum, a so called trophy of the genocide they committed.

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/africa/no-french-apology-to-algerians-since-independence/2208732

I suppose Incans, Mayans, Aztecs are no longer there but their decedents are alive and well, cross bred multiple times. But that doesn't change the fact that the spanish committed a mass scale genocide in the middle of the last Millennium. 45% of Peru are direct descendants of the Incans. Guess who rules over them till this date? Descendants of the genocidal Spanish criminals.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Inca
Similarly quite a few of Mayan descendants live in Guatemala, and Aztec descendants live in Mexico.
That doesn't remove or change history, even if UN was made after. The fact is, Spanish committed a mass genocide never before seen by mankind, and it is not even acknowledged till this date. But lets give Biden benefit of doubt on that because it doesn't meet his national security agenda when it comes to them.

Also you forget to mention Native Americans in Canada and US (Especially in US). Canadian govt has repeatedly apologized over it. American govt still consider native as slaves. No apology, nothing. Oh and UN doesn't even acknowledge it, so who cares, right?

My point is, that genocide is labelled by Biden, west and ally govt only when it serves their nationalistic purpose. Otherwise it doesn't. I am pretty sure I am missing so many more Genocides in my list.
 
The Empire continued into the early sixties.

The term genocide was coined by a Polish lawyer in 1944 to describe the Holocaust and certain other events such as the Armenian Genocide which had inspired Hitler.

The Genocide Code is one of the pillars of the international liberal rules-based order which brought peace and stability to Europe after centuries of war - with the UN, ICC, Council of Europe, GATT, and EEC/EU precursor treaties.


The 'international liberal rules-based order' was created, designed and applied by the West, in order to promote and propagate its interests - imposing its imperial and hegemonic ambitions upon the rest of the world. In this 'order' we are led to believe the West is a benign force, employing its wealth and power to further the cause of humanity.

The 'peace and stability (in) Europe' only applies to Western Europe, not to Central and Eastern Europe, both of which having been devastated by Western-inspired, NATO - of which Turkey is an integral part - wars that led to the destruction and dismantlement of Yugoslavia and, to a lesser extent, Ukraine. NATO seeks to expand its sphere of influence to former Soviet bloc nations, such as the Czech Republic and Slovakia. This encroachment towards the borders of Russia is designed to contain and encircle it.

The West has engaged in a perpetual war agenda that has resulted in millions dead, maimed, displaced - entire nations reduced to rubble. The US dropped 26,171 bombs upon Iraq, Syria, Pakistan, Somalia, Afghanistan, Libya in 2016. Some might think that, in itself, amounts to genocide, war crimes or both. I suggest that Joe Biden - a war criminal who supported the attack upon Iraq, was part of war criminal Obama's regime that destroyed Libya and launched its regime-change operation against Syria - is not in a position to pontificate upon the wrongdoings of the Ottoman Empire, is absolutely devoid of all moral authority, as is the US Establishment. It is clear that the declaration by Joe Biden about Armenia is political in nature and has zero to do with justice.

If the US or Biden regime give two hoots about human rights, let them declare the inhumane war upon Yemen a genocide - which it is - and the ongoing oppression, ethnic cleansing of Palestinians a genocide - which it is - or the Indian military occupation of Kashmir close to genocide - which it could be characterized as. The fact that the US is very closely allied to the war criminal Saudi regime, Netanyahu's government and Narendra Modi indicates that self-interest and politics determine its decision-making and domestic/foreign policy, and not any humanitarian concerns. In other word, the US is extremely selective when expressing outrage over human rights violations.

When individuals, communities and countries speak about Justice, they must begin with themselves FIRST, acknowledge their own wrongdoing and make amends. To do otherwise is to distract from one's own injustices, by diverting attention towards the injustices perpetrated by others. It's nothing but projection.
 
Well here is the thing Robert. If it is not in the UN, it is not considered. Why? UN was formed after majority of the genocides I have mentioned. British committed it in the sub-continent (feel free to ask anyone from India, Pakistan, BD or Burma about it). Till this date, the British govt and royals have taken no responsibility. This is just one of the massacre or genocide I am highlighting. British have committed this all over the world.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-war-concentration-camp-mau-mau-a6821756.html

The Algerian govt have indeed lobbied against it but it brought no fruit. The million skulls are still saved in the French Museum, a so called trophy of the genocide they committed.

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/africa/no-french-apology-to-algerians-since-independence/2208732

I suppose Incans, Mayans, Aztecs are no longer there but their decedents are alive and well, cross bred multiple times. But that doesn't change the fact that the spanish committed a mass scale genocide in the middle of the last Millennium. 45% of Peru are direct descendants of the Incans. Guess who rules over them till this date? Descendants of the genocidal Spanish criminals.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Inca
Similarly quite a few of Mayan descendants live in Guatemala, and Aztec descendants live in Mexico.
That doesn't remove or change history, even if UN was made after. The fact is, Spanish committed a mass genocide never before seen by mankind, and it is not even acknowledged till this date. But lets give Biden benefit of doubt on that because it doesn't meet his national security agenda when it comes to them.

Also you forget to mention Native Americans in Canada and US (Especially in US). Canadian govt has repeatedly apologized over it. American govt still consider native as slaves. No apology, nothing. Oh and UN doesn't even acknowledge it, so who cares, right?

My point is, that genocide is labelled by Biden, west and ally govt only when it serves their nationalistic purpose. Otherwise it doesn't. I am pretty sure I am missing so many more Genocides in my list.

None of those British atrocities count as an actual genocide. No attempt to annihilate a people. The famines were caused by incompetence rather than malice. However, Blair apologised to the Irish for the Famine as part of the GFA negotiations.

Obama apologised to the Cherokee for the Trail of Tears in 2009.

https://edition.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/11/15/langguth.trail.of.tears/index.html

And as I pointed out, by naming the Armenian Genocide, Biden has alienated a NATO ally. So nationalistic purpose is served. Quite the reverse.

So this is more nuanced than you suggest.
 
None of those British atrocities count as an actual genocide. No attempt to annihilate a people. The famines were caused by incompetence rather than malice. However, Blair apologised to the Irish for the Famine as part of the GFA negotiations.

Obama apologised to the Cherokee for the Trail of Tears in 2009.

https://edition.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/11/15/langguth.trail.of.tears/index.html

And as I pointed out, by naming the Armenian Genocide, Biden has alienated a NATO ally. So nationalistic purpose is served. Quite the reverse.

So this is more nuanced than you suggest.

Are we serious here? Those who define genocide declared that there was no genocide in India or anywhere else. Ofcourse they're going to say that.

Obama signed the apology without any announcement or formal press conference. Looks more like a formality than apology. Doesnt change the fact that millions of native died and till this day being persecuted and opposed. The US govt doesn't give a damn about it, but yes, lets officialize the apology, lol. Get real Robert! Put yourself in their shoes. There is a massive taint on the western countries with their genocidal history. Not defining it as genocide doesn't change the fact that it actually was.
 
Are we serious here? Those who define genocide declared that there was no genocide in India or anywhere else. Ofcourse they're going to say that.

Obama signed the apology without any announcement or formal press conference. Looks more like a formality than apology. Doesnt change the fact that millions of native died and till this day being persecuted and opposed. The US govt doesn't give a damn about it, but yes, lets officialize the apology, lol. Get real Robert! Put yourself in their shoes. There is a massive taint on the western countries with their genocidal history. Not defining it as genocide doesn't change the fact that it actually was.

Genocide was defined by a Polish lawyer named Raphael Lemkin. The Genocide Convention was signed by all fifty members of the General Assembly when it came into force in 1951, including India.

My ancestors on one side were victims of what might be described as a genocide perpetrated by William the Conqueror, and victims on the other side of the Irish Famine. My wife’s ancestors were victims of the Atlantic passage and slavery. Real enough?
 
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He is comforting a million of his own people, not “telling others”.

Come on Robert, we both know any official recognition is also a message for Turkey.

Nato means nothing to the Yanks and my point still stands, the US is the last nation to accuse others of any genocide or mass murder, they are the Gold medalists for decades running.
 
Come on Robert, we both know any official recognition is also a message for Turkey.

Nato means nothing to the Yanks and my point still stands, the US is the last nation to accuse others of any genocide or mass murder, they are the Gold medalists for decades running.

It's political in nature, and has nothing to do with concern for Armenians.

There is an anti-Turkey agenda, and this is evident from the way Turkey is covered by Western corporate media. It probably has a great deal to do with Erdogan's opening up of the Haggia Sophia Mosque to Muslim worshippers, the fact that he is viewed as an 'Islamist,' his incursion into Syria and battle against terrorist Kurds, the PKK - Kurds, like the Uighur Muslims of China, are the 'chosen ones' that are funded, supported and aided by the US/West. So on many fronts, Turkey has become a target, and could become next in line for a regime change operation, after Iran.

Has the US acknowledged the assassination of Turkish diplomats by Armenian terrorist groups? No, because that would run counter to its pro-Armenia narrative.
 
It's political in nature, and has nothing to do with concern for Armenians.

There is an anti-Turkey agenda, and this is evident from the way Turkey is covered by Western corporate media. It probably has a great deal to do with Erdogan's opening up of the Haggia Sophia Mosque to Muslim worshippers, the fact that he is viewed as an 'Islamist,' his incursion into Syria and battle against terrorist Kurds, the PKK - Kurds, like the Uighur Muslims of China, are the 'chosen ones' that are funded, supported and aided by the US/West. So on many fronts, Turkey has become a target, and could become next in line for a regime change operation, after Iran.

Has the US acknowledged the assassination of Turkish diplomats by Armenian terrorist groups? No, because that would run counter to its pro-Armenia narrative.

But it's all kushti, Turkey is in NATO, and the West has been waiting for an attack from Russia for over 5 decades. When the time comes, Turkey will be pushed into the spot light.

These topi bazi drama folk who cry for equality and justice are oblivious to the hypocrisy their governments practice.

Case in point, there is one definition of genocide for the west, and another for the east.
 
Genocide was defined by a Polish lawyer named Raphael Lemkin. The Genocide Convention was signed by all fifty members of the General Assembly when it came into force in 1951, including India.

My ancestors on one side were victims of what might be described as a genocide perpetrated by William the Conqueror, and victims on the other side of the Irish Famine. My wife’s ancestors were victims of the Atlantic passage and slavery. Real enough?

My ancestors also suffered at the hands of the British, not to mention the partition which displaced and killed millions. Is this not real enough you think?
 
It's political in nature, and has nothing to do with concern for Armenians.

There is an anti-Turkey agenda, and this is evident from the way Turkey is covered by Western corporate media. It probably has a great deal to do with Erdogan's opening up of the Haggia Sophia Mosque to Muslim worshippers, the fact that he is viewed as an 'Islamist,' his incursion into Syria and battle against terrorist Kurds, the PKK - Kurds, like the Uighur Muslims of China, are the 'chosen ones' that are funded, supported and aided by the US/West. So on many fronts, Turkey has become a target, and could become next in line for a regime change operation, after Iran.

Has the US acknowledged the assassination of Turkish diplomats by Armenian terrorist groups? No, because that would run counter to its pro-Armenia narrative.

I agree.

Im not sure if you will but imo it's just an extension of the war on terror, which in reality to some extent has been a war on Islam and Muslim nations.

I think with Turkey, they have tried the military coup route which failed. The western regimes really hate Erdogan because his policies in favour of Islam amongst wanting to be stronger power in the region.
 
Come on Robert, we both know any official recognition is also a message for Turkey.

Nato means nothing to the Yanks and my point still stands, the US is the last nation to accuse others of any genocide or mass murder, they are the Gold medalists for decades running.

“NATO means nothing to the Yanks.” Even though they spent $Trillions fortifying Europe. Even though Turkey has the largest NATO army after USA and is key to the Alliance’s MidEast strategy.

Why shouldn’t they acknowledge the Armenian Genocide? It’s part of the family history of a million Americans.
 
It's political in nature, and has nothing to do with concern for Armenians.

There is an anti-Turkey agenda, and this is evident from the way Turkey is covered by Western corporate media. It probably has a great deal to do with Erdogan's opening up of the Haggia Sophia Mosque to Muslim worshippers, the fact that he is viewed as an 'Islamist,' his incursion into Syria and battle against terrorist Kurds, the PKK - Kurds, like the Uighur Muslims of China, are the 'chosen ones' that are funded, supported and aided by the US/West. So on many fronts, Turkey has become a target, and could become next in line for a regime change operation, after Iran.

Has the US acknowledged the assassination of Turkish diplomats by Armenian terrorist groups? No, because that would run counter to its pro-Armenia narrative.

Turkey opposes Kurds in their own country while arming Kurds in Syria.

Poor old Kurds really should have been given a homeland when Britain and France busted up the remains of the Ottoman Empire.
 
“NATO means nothing to the Yanks.” Even though they spent $Trillions fortifying Europe. Even though Turkey has the largest NATO army after USA and is key to the Alliance’s MidEast strategy.

Why shouldn’t they acknowledge the Armenian Genocide? It’s part of the family history of a million Americans.

They spend millions to further their imperialism not because they care.

An honourable people would firstly acknowledge their own wrongs first? Or is the US allowed to shed blood?
 
We should add Bosnia too the list too.

Good old Europeans love a war, and stood back while genocide was carried out on Muslims in Europe.

Their excuse for not intervening was that Yugoslavia was not a member of the EU.

The West doesn't hold the rights to the definition of genocide.
 
I agree.

Im not sure if you will but imo it's just an extension of the war on terror, which in reality to some extent has been a war on Islam and Muslim nations.

I think with Turkey, they have tried the military coup route which failed. The western regimes really hate Erdogan because his policies in favour of Islam amongst wanting to be stronger power in the region.

Turkey is being used by the West. Member of NATO, member of Customs Union, but not a member of EU.

The West hate Erogan because he doesn't tow the Western line.
 
Glad to see the usual culprits are mad here. :)

Definitely was a genocide, as was the Bosnian, Native American atrocities.
 
They spend millions to further their imperialism not because they care.

An honourable people would firstly acknowledge their own wrongs first? Or is the US allowed to shed blood?

$Trillions, and hundreds of thousands of their lives, to defend European liberty and democracy. They saved Western Europe from Nazi and Soviet totalitarianism. I from am very glad that they did, and continue to do so. Right now, Putin would be nibbling off the fledgling democracies of the Baltic without their might in support.

Sometimes their leaders are misguided and make terrible mistakes. When they do that, I criticise them. The War on Terror / regime change was such a mistake. But they have stopped doing that. They started to slide towards fascism with Trump but have corrected that error in electing the fundamentally decent Biden.

No country is perfect. Every country has committed atrocity. The Muslim world has committed plenty, though not recently as their once-dominant culture fell centuries ago.

In the end you have to pick a side, and I’m on the side of the USA, because USA is on mine.
 
We should add Bosnia too the list too.

Good old Europeans love a war, and stood back while genocide was carried out on Muslims in Europe.

Their excuse for not intervening was that Yugoslavia was not a member of the EU.

The West doesn't hold the rights to the definition of genocide.

Stopped the genocide of Muslims in Bosnia, and prosecuted the war criminals.

Now all those former Yugoslavia states are in the EU and developing their economies and institutions.
 
Simply not true. Soviets helped win WW1 and WW2, and it was the Soviets who helped defeat the Nazis. This is a documented fact.

The subsequent cold war was just an excuse for the Western imperialism, pure propaganda that continues till today.
 
Stopped the genocide of Muslims in Bosnia, and prosecuted the war criminals.

Now all those former Yugoslavia states are in the EU and developing their economies and institutions.

Bit too late after Muslims were mass murdered while neighbouring European countries did nothing but watch genocide being carried out on their door step.
 
$Trillions, and hundreds of thousands of their lives, to defend European liberty and democracy. They saved Western Europe from Nazi and Soviet totalitarianism. I from am very glad that they did, and continue to do so. Right now, Putin would be nibbling off the fledgling democracies of the Baltic without their might in support.

Sometimes their leaders are misguided and make terrible mistakes. When they do that, I criticise them. The War on Terror / regime change was such a mistake. But they have stopped doing that. They started to slide towards fascism with Trump but have corrected that error in electing the fundamentally decent Biden.

No country is perfect. Every country has committed atrocity. The Muslim world has committed plenty, though not recently as their once-dominant culture fell centuries ago.

In the end you have to pick a side, and I’m on the side of the USA, because USA is on mine.

You are right no country is perfect, and the war on terror was a mistake, but what about Iraq 2003? Your criticism of Bush and Blair stops at - it was a mistake.

Should Bush and Blair be tried for war crimes considering the war was illegal and based on fabricated evidence?

Calling out a mistake is not criticism.
 
Simply not true. Soviets helped win WW1 and WW2, and it was the Soviets who helped defeat the Nazis. This is a documented fact.

The subsequent cold war was just an excuse for the Western imperialism, pure propaganda that continues till today.

The Soviets, or more correctly the Bolsheviks gave up on WW1 in 1917, resulting in a flood of German soldiers arriving at the Western front and nearly winning the war for the Central Powers.

Without the US/British/Empire advance across Western Europe the Soviets would certainly have taken more territory, certainly all Germany, possibly even advancing to the Atlantic, and Europe would have been under Soviet totalitarianism. USA’s men and machines saved Western Europe from that awful fate and I am glad they did.

The Soviets put up the Iron Curtain across Eastern Europe and started the Cold War, not the West. Soviet imperialism then spread across the world - down into South East Asia, Africa, Cuba.

As I have stated here before.
 
The Soviets, or more correctly the Bolsheviks gave up on WW1 in 1917, resulting in a flood of German soldiers arriving at the Western front and nearly winning the war for the Central Powers.

Without the US/British/Empire advance across Western Europe the Soviets would certainly have taken more territory, certainly all Germany, possibly even advancing to the Atlantic, and Europe would have been under Soviet totalitarianism. USA’s men and machines saved Western Europe from that awful fate and I am glad they did.

The Soviets put up the Iron Curtain across Eastern Europe and started the Cold War, not the West. Soviet imperialism then spread across the world - down into South East Asia, Africa, Cuba.

As I have stated here before.

Doesn't change the fact Soviets helped defeat the Nazis.

Soviets didn't start the cold war, it was America when they parked their nukes in Turkey, and Soviets responded by transporting nukes to Cuba. The rest is history.
 
It was a genocide.

And it's also translated as "How dare you buy a Russian defence system and go off-script in Syria"
 
Doesn't change the fact Soviets helped defeat the Nazis.

Soviets didn't start the cold war, it was America when they parked their nukes in Turkey, and Soviets responded by transporting nukes to Cuba. The rest is history.

Of course the Soviets started the Cold War, by putting the Iron Curtain up in 1945 so that the people of their newly-conquered territories (DDR, Poland, Romania, Czechoslovakia) could not see Western freedoms.

The Jupiter MRBM deployment to Italy and Turkey was sixteen years later.
 
You are right no country is perfect, and the war on terror was a mistake, but what about Iraq 2003? Your criticism of Bush and Blair stops at - it was a mistake.

Should Bush and Blair be tried for war crimes considering the war was illegal and based on fabricated evidence?

Calling out a mistake is not criticism.

USA does not recognise the ICC so Bush will never be arrested.

Blair’s culpability is open to debate. He has wiggle room in the wording of UNSCR 1441. His lawyers could argue that Saddam did not comply with 1441 so military action was legal. For this reason I don’t think the ICC will ever issue a warrant.
 
USA does not recognise the ICC so Bush will never be arrested.

Blair’s culpability is open to debate. He has wiggle room in the wording of UNSCR 1441. His lawyers could argue that Saddam did not comply with 1441 so military action was legal. For this reason I don’t think the ICC will ever issue a warrant.

I'm asking you, your personal opinion, whether B&B should be tried. What do you think?
 
Of course the Soviets started the Cold War, by putting the Iron Curtain up in 1945 so that the people of their newly-conquered territories (DDR, Poland, Romania, Czechoslovakia) could not see Western freedoms.

The Jupiter MRBM deployment to Italy and Turkey was sixteen years later.

The date the Cold War started is a retrospective date. What were the newspaper headlines then? Cold war begins?

There is no logical reason why a wall signals the start of a new war. If walls are an indication of war, then the Berlin wall is also an indication of war, yes?

Still, an iron curtain didn’t warrant US nuclear weapons in Turkey. I bet you believe the Cuban missile crisis was also Soviet’s fault, when it was a simple response to American bully boy aggression tactics.

Russia today has every reason to defend itself given the history of the West, and against NATO, and Western aggression. Freedom you speak of is a joke considering what Isreal has been up to since 1947. Not to mention the number of wars waged by the West post WW2 which dwarf Soviet/Russian aggression.

History is written by the winners as they say, your version of the cold war is the version propagated by the West. After all, the West needed a new bogeyman to instil fear and control over Western society, and an excuse to drop more bombs - and my word, it is still working today.
 
The date the Cold War started is a retrospective date. What were the newspaper headlines then? Cold war begins?

There is no logical reason why a wall signals the start of a new war. If walls are an indication of war, then the Berlin wall is also an indication of war, yes?

Still, an iron curtain didn’t warrant US nuclear weapons in Turkey. I bet you believe the Cuban missile crisis was also Soviet’s fault, when it was a simple response to American bully boy aggression tactics.

Russia today has every reason to defend itself given the history of the West, and against NATO, and Western aggression. Freedom you speak of is a joke considering what Isreal has been up to since 1947. Not to mention the number of wars waged by the West post WW2 which dwarf Soviet/Russian aggression.

History is written by the winners as they say, your version of the cold war is the version propagated by the West. After all, the West needed a new bogeyman to instil fear and control over Western society, and an excuse to drop more bombs - and my word, it is still working today.

Don't the great powers of the West do all this to maintain our way of life? Do you really think we could live the lifestyle we do without someone else being on the wrong side of it? If the east becomes rich, would that not mean we would become poorer? I am assuming there must be a bit of that behind the war drums beating over rising China.
 
Blair, Bush (Jnr/Snr), and Obama are terrorists, and the only difference is, they wear a suit when ordering the death of innocent people in the name of their ideology, Democracy.

This is precisely why outside the West, many felt USA deserved 9/11, a taste of their own medicine.

More so, Americans started to believe this too, including Bobby Fischer - with whom many Americans agreed.
 
Don't the great powers of the West do all this to maintain our way of life? Do you really think we could live the lifestyle we do without someone else being on the wrong side of it? If the east becomes rich, would that not mean we would become poorer? I am assuming there must be a bit of that behind the war drums beating over rising China.

War is business, and society can only be controlled through fear, and control of society means votes.

Russia, China, North Korea, Iran - all bogeymen. Not a single one of these nations has waged war or dropped a bomb on Amreekan/British soil - not one - yet we are told they are the aggressors.

The East is already rich, richer than bankrupt UK, EU, and indebted USA. The West are losing power by the minute and their only response now (instead of dropping bombs) is to fight via the economy. Sanctions, USD manipulation, Swift system - all of this is an alternative to dropping bombs.

When the West claim we are living in the longest period of peace, it’s horseshit. Peace for whom? Middle East? Africa? South America? East? - no, only the West.

West cry about Russia using chemical weapons, but it is the West who manufacture chemical weapons, andnthen sell them across the globe! Same with guns, bombs, fighter jets, the list goes on.

War is business, and the only reason the West despises Communism, is because communism opposes capitalism - absolutely nothing to do with freedom, all to do with control, and how does Western capitalism control society? Debt.
 
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