Joe Root versus Hashim Amla in the Test format

[Buffet]

I literally fell off my chair reading some of the claims made in Root vs Ponting thread. He is better than Kallis. He is the best test batsman to tour India. He is the best test batsman after Steven Smith in the last 20 years and what not.

Let's leave the bottom 4 teams aside and let's leave the home games for a minute.

Hashim Amla: [ in Ind/Aus/Eng ]

54 innings - Avg 56 and 9 tons. Every 6 innings Amla scored a ton.


Joe Root: [in Ind/Aus/SA ]

72 innings - Avg 42 and 4 tons. Every 18 innings Root scored a ton.


Amla is light years ahead than Root in performing in den of strong home teams. There is no comparison.


----------------------

Now let's look at peformance in Eng/SA for both since it's home grounds for both.


Amla in Eng:

20 innings in Eng - Avg 60 and 3 tons. Every 6-7 innings Amla scored a ton.


Root in Eng:

137 innings in Eng - Avg 54 and 21 tons. Every 6-7 innings Root scored a ton.


Both have scored big at same frequency in Eng and have good average.



---------------------

Amla in SA:

117 innings - Avg 46 and 16 tons. Every 7 innings Amla scored a ton.


Root in SA:

15 innings - Avg 50 and 1 ton. Every 15 innings Root scored a ton.


Both have good average but Amla has scored tons more frequently.


----------------------------------


It's clear that when it comes to tough runs, Amala is far ahead of Root. Even in Eng, Root is not able to outperfrom Amla. I could have picked Kallis or Graeme Smith to make the same point but let's stick to Amla because I have not seen many players playing spin better than him.


I am familiar with Root's volume of runs, but is there any strong argument to rate Root above Amla or Graeme Smith in the test format based on actual performance? I won't go to Kallis here. It's another case of Anderson getting pushed as some top tier bowler due to volume.


Think another way, based on actual performances if you have to pick one batsman out of Root and Amla for world XI spot in the last 25 years, who will you pick? For me it's not even close, Amla was just better.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

This seems like a thread that opened because of Root vs Sachin.

 

[sweep_shot]

Both are wonderful batters and ATGs.

I have to say Root is slightly better.

 

[Buffet]

This seems like a thread that opened because of Root vs Sachin.

Nope, Root is clearly not in that league. Let's try to see where he lands when compared to some others. Does he belong in top tier or just below that tier. I rate him just below top tier.

 

[sweep_shot]

Nope, Root is clearly not in that league. Let's try to see where he lands when compared to some others. Does he belong in top tier or just below that tier. I rate him just below top tier.

LOL. Root will possibly surpass statpadder Tendulkar in a few years.

 

[Buffet]

Both are wonderful batters and ATGs.

I have to say Root is slightly better.

Don't say, present some arguments.

I may be wrong and it good things to be proven wrong because that way we all learn something.

I have watched both, I will never pick Root.

 

[mominsaigol]

Root wins, nuff said.

Also Indians, can you stop getting senti because some pakistani's decided to play your game and troll you lot?

Relax, Sachin as a batter is superior to root, crossing runs doesn't equate to being better, magar sabar karo aur chill karo.

Drama queens

 

[Varun]

LOL. Root will possibly surpass statpadder Tendulkar in a few years.

Can't score runs in Australia.

Also being English, he will probably average less than 50.

 

[sweep_shot]

Don't say, present some arguments.

I may be wrong and it good things to be proven wrong because that way we all learn something.

I have watched both, I will never pick Root.

Root has more centuries, more runs, and a higher average.

 

[Buffet]

Root has more centuries, more runs, and a higher average.

All are statspadding. Any other arguments?

 

[Buffet]

Root wins, nuff said.

Also Indians, can you stop getting senti because some pakistani's decided to play your game and troll you lot?

Relax, Sachin as a batter is superior to root, crossing runs doesn't equate to being better, magar sabar karo aur chill karo.

Drama queens

You probably don't know me due to being a new poster so let's keep this Indian, Senti stuff aside.

Have you watched Amla bat in the test format? Can you present some strong arguments for Root being a better test bat?

 

[sweep_shot]

All are statspadding. Any other arguments?

I already told you why I thought Root was better than Amla.

Root has more Test centuries than Amla.
Root has more Test runs than Amla.
Root averages 5 points higher than Amla.

Objectively speaking, Root is better.

 

[mominsaigol]

You probably don't know me due to being a new poster so let's keep this Indian, Senti stuff aside.

Have you watched Amla bat in the test format? Can you present some strong arguments for Root being a better test bat?

I am not referring to you, sorry if it came off that way.

You're one of the few posters I respect. The people who read my posts will know who I'm talking to.

 

[Buffet]

I already told you why I thought Root was better than Amla.

Root has more Test centuries than Amla.
Root has more Test runs than Amla.
Root averages 5 points higher than Amla.

Objectively speaking, Root is better.

No one is qustioning volume. Anderson has most wickets among pacers, Root will land up in top 2-3 runs among batsmen, that's gioven. most runs, most tons, most wickets ...

Question is about quality and frequencies of tough runs.


Very few rate Jayawardene very high in the test format despite having 34 tons, around 12K runs and high average. Before some one with comprehension issue jumps at me, I rate Root higher than Jayawardene.

 

[Buffet]

I am not referring to you, sorry if it came off that way.

You're one of the few posters I respect. The people who read my posts will know who I'm talking to.

No issues. I am from a very mixed family(citizenship wide) but let's not get into that.

 

[aboveandbeyond]

Amla for me is better. His pedigree against quality sides was brilliant.

Take nothing away from Joe Root. Quality bat. But He has really milked the poor teams

 

[Technics 1210]

Who gets to decide what are tough runs or not? Arm chair Google critics? Indian fans? Move over.

Root has achieved way more than Amla, Runs, Trophies, Milestones etc.

Pathetic attempt to undermine Root.

 

[Buffet]

Who gets to decide what are tough runs or not?

Runs scored by visiting teams per wicket,

 

[Technics 1210]

So just another pigeon holed filter.

 

[Buffet]

So just another pigeon holed filter.

The 4 hardest place to score for visitors by a large sample size looks a pigeon holed filter to you?

You asked for tough runs, that's a definition of tough runs.

 

[Technics 1210]

The 4 hardest place to score for visitors by a large sample size looks a pigeon holed filter to you?

You asked for tough runs, that's a definition of tough runs.

Yes it is a pigeon hole. You take this 1 filter and try to undermine Root.

Carry on.

 

[Buffet]

Yes it is a pigeon hole. You take this 1 filter and try to undermine Root.

Carry on.

No one is undermining Root, but to be rated among the top tiers, you got to stand out among your peers in tough tours.

Last 25 years, Just from SA - Amala, Smith, Kallis etc have scored heavily in tough tours.

Volume of wickets argumets was used by many for Anderson when comparison with Steyn despite having a huge gap between two bowlers. Let's not do the same with Root. Yes, I am aware of some performacnes by Anderson when playing away and some performances by Root when playing away, but both fall short in tough tours when compared to many other batsmen/bolwers of same generation.

 

[Ab Fan]

Runs on flat decks away from home is not necessarily better than runs at home in tough batting conditions.

Reason why Amla and Smith have more away runs in wins is because it coincided with the peak of Steyn, Kallis and AB de Villiers also. In reality, AB de Villiers is arguably better test batsmen than both, being a better batsman on tough wickets and vs pace and bounce in addition to keeping at peak of his career. Amla just produced a standout knock on a flat pitch at right time and he had right support in all facets ensuring his runs contribute to wins.

Root has a double ton in match winning cause in India and a series winning performance in South Africa and Sri Lanka and New Zealand along with winning series with standout performances at home vs Australia and India which Amla and Smith both have failed to do. The only SA batsman to do well at home vs Australia is AB de Villiers and only in 2018, they managed to beat Australia at home. The series have always been competitive and bowling friendly pitches.

Overall, Root > Kallis > ABD> Smith > Amla.

Kallis the batter is considered only.

 

[viveks]

No one is undermining Root, but to be rated among the top tiers, you got to stand out among your peers in tough tours.

Last 25 years, Just from SA - Amala, Smith, Kallis etc have scored heavily in tough tours.

Volume of wickets argumets was used by many for Anderson when comparison with Steyn despite having a huge gap between two bowlers. Let's not do the same with Root. Yes, I am aware of some performacnes by Anderson when playing away and some performances by Root when playing away, but both fall short in tough tours when compared to many other batsmen/bolwers of same generation.

I guess the question is what do you consider same generation? In the filter you're using Amla played 6/9 full series between 2008-2012, and in the other 3 between 2015-17 he performed poorly in 2 of them because they were low scoring series. Like I said in the other thread if look at 2013-2023, only Kohli and Smith are comparable to Root, but maybe that's too small of a period for you?

IMO, Root's generation is Smith, Kohli, Pujara, Rahane, Warner, Labuschagne, Williamson etc. And Aside from Kohli and Smith he outperforms all of them, and if we don't use the "Ton" metric(which IMO is arbitrary) then Root is equivalent to Kohli. That is to say that he is the top 2 bats of his generation

 

[Buffet]

Reason why Amla and Smith have more away runs in wins is because it coincided with the peak of Steyn, Kallis and AB de Villiers also.

I did not anywhere talked about run or tons in wins. Just simple how often you scored big in tough tours.

Root is far behind Amala.

Let's not mix it with wins beucase SA had a far better bowling side for away conditions. Let's stick to simply performance by batsmen which in their control.

 

[Buffet]

I guess the question is what do you consider same generation? In the filter you're using Amla played 6/9 full series between 2008-2012, and in the other 3 between 2015-17 he performed poorly in 2 of them because they were low scoring series. Like I said in the other thread if look at 2013-2023, only Kohli and Smith are comparable to Root, but maybe that's too small of a period for you?

IMO, Root's generation is Smith, Kohli, Pujara, Rahane, Warner, Labuschagne, Williamson etc. And Aside from Kohli and Smith he outperforms all of them, and if we don't use the "Ton" metric(which IMO is arbitrary) then Root is equivalent to Kohli. That is to say that he is the top 2 bats of his generation

Good point about generation in precise sense. I was using 20 years period with many overlapping careers.

Let's say that Amla, who retired in 2019, was in totally different generation. Can you present arguments for rating Root higher than Amla?

 

[Ab Fan]

I did not anywhere talked about run or tons in wins. Just simple how often you scored big in tough tours.

Root is far behind Amala.

Let's not mix it with wins beucase SA had a far better bowling side for away conditions. Let's stick to simply performance by batsmen which in their control.

It is still not the deciding factor. You put Ponting in place of Root and compare him vs Amla. You will find such differences there also. Performance away from home vs decent to good teams aren’t supposed to be taken for granted and neither should the home performance vs top teams.

 

[Buffet]

It is still not the deciding factor. You put Ponting in place of Root and compare him vs Amla. You will find such differences there also. Performance away from home vs decent to good teams aren’t supposed to be taken for granted and neither should the home performance vs top teams.

Performance vs good teams at home is much more easy than performance vs top team in their den.

Just look at Eng bowlers in the last 30-35 years. Many English bowlers avearged below 30 with a decent sample size at home against Ind/SA/Aus but not a single bowler have averaged below 30 agasint SA/Aus/Ind when playing away. Same is true for batting, 3-4 English batsmen have average of 50 plus at home with 1K plus runs against SA,Aus,Ind but the highest away averaging batsman in Aus/Ind/SA is Cook with 46.

I am surely not taking it for granted because playing well consistently against good teams away is the toughest job for any player. That's the reason I highlighted it. Not saying that it's the only factor, but it's really a big factor in how players have been rated historically.

 

[sweep_shot]

No one is undermining Root, but to be rated among the top tiers, you got to stand out among your peers in tough tours.

Last 25 years, Just from SA - Amala, Smith, Kallis etc have scored heavily in tough tours.

Volume of wickets argumets was used by many for Anderson when comparison with Steyn despite having a huge gap between two bowlers. Let's not do the same with Root. Yes, I am aware of some performacnes by Anderson when playing away and some performances by Root when playing away, but both fall short in tough tours when compared to many other batsmen/bolwers of same generation.

You have a fascination for away tours. That is not the only factor to decide someone's greatness.

You have to look at all aspects (longevity, home series, away series, average, number of centuries etc.).

 

[JaDed]

You have a fascination for away tours. That is not the only factor to decide someone's greatness.

You have to look at all aspects (longevity, home series, away series, average, number of centuries etc.).

When has home series started mattering? Is it since Joe Root?

 

[sweep_shot]

When has home series started mattering? Is it since Joe Root?

Home series is one aspect and it should matter to assess a player's greatness.

 

[Buffet]

You have a fascination for away tours. That is not the only factor to decide someone's greatness.

You have to look at all aspects (longevity, home series, away series, average, number of centuries etc.).

Not only factor but the biggest factor for greatness.

Let's take an exmaple of Anderson.

700 test wickets ( Highest wickets for pacer)
32 5-fers ( Second highest 5-fers for pacer )
24 5-fers at home ( Highest 5-fers at home among all pacers, second highest is only 17 )
Very good career average of 26
Longevity - 20 plus years - Unmatched


You would think that with all this Anderosn would be rated at least among the top 3-5 pacers. And yet, he won't find a place among top tier of bowlers because the same bowler had,

Avearge of 33 with only 3 5-fers in Aus/Ind/SA

It's the biggest factor for greatness and Anderson lacks only this factor. Ambrose, Wasim, McGrath, Marshall, Hadlee etc are rated high due to turning it on in tough tours. Greatness is always turning it on on tough tours in test cricket. No one gets rated as top tier with all other stuff you are listing if they can't go big on tough tours.

 

[sweep_shot]

Not only factor but the biggest factor for greatness.

Let's take an exmaple of Anderson.

700 test wickets ( Highest wickets for pacer)
32 5-fers ( Second highest 5-fers for pacer )
24 5-fers at home ( Highest 5-fers at home among all pacers, second highest is only 17 )
Very good career average of 26
Longevity - 20 plus years - Unmatched


You would think that with all this Anderosn would be rated at least among the top 3-5 pacers. And yet, he won't find a place among top tier of bowlers because the same bowler had,

Avearge of 33 with only 3 5-fers in Aus/Ind/SA

It's the biggest factor for greatness and Anderson lacks only this factor. Ambrose, Wasim, McGrath, Marshall, Hadlee etc are rated high due to turning it on in tough tours. Greatness is always turning it on on tough tours in test cricket. No one gets rated as top tier with all other stuff you are listing if they can't go big on tough tours.

Disagree. That's your opinion.

All factors are to be considered. Not just how one did in tough away tours.

 

[Buffet]

Disagree. That's your opinion.

All factors are to be considered. Not just how one did in tough away tours.

Why Anderson is not rated as top tier despite doing everything you listed and only missing piece is not able to do well on tough away tours?

It's the biggest factor for greatness. Well, lets agree to disagree.

 

[HARKS]

Why Anderson is not rated as top tier despite doing everything you listed and only missing piece is not able to do well on tough away tours?

It's the biggest factor for greatness. Well, lets agree to disagree.

@Buffet ,many people here doesn't care about your Fair arguments bcz they really don't care about Root being best batsmen, all they care about is discredit Sachin as he is indian and try to Soothe their ego. Their teams Sucks now in all formats and their Trump card batsmen and bowlers also sucks big time so they venting their frustration on indian. Already about 3 - 4 threads been open and trolling ongoing ,don't waste ur time arguing with him.

 

[HARKS]

@Buffet , in Another thread 1 troller is arguing in mcgrath vs Bumrah is not great bowler bcz he doesn't bowl to great batsmens like in 90s but aruging Root is better batsmen than Sachin . See the stupid contradiction they also can see this but argue for sake of trolling so just mute and go away from thread

 

[SportsWarrior]

Root is better test batsman. He hardly has any major technical issues and can play well in most countries. He has not done as well against India in India or Australia in Australia, but still respectable averages especially in india. Both India and Australia have been better teams while he is at his peak, so that is understandable. He is the best test batter of this generation

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

The following aptly represent the RooT issues of present.
1. Root has hit a higher gear for the last few years elevating his status as smith, kohli and Williamson faded.
2. The hype masters english media.
3. Root closing on Sachin's record
4. Pakistanis adopting Root as their own as their proxy in trolling sensitive Indians like they use Aussie records against india often.

Root has performed better than what many analysts expected ever of him. Cynics can point to fall of test cricket outside big 3 and too much test cricket played by England. One thing is for sure, if Root fails to break Sachin's record nobody except the English media will remember him by 2030.
But it's fun to see groups trying to elevate him to GOAT status or conversely undermine his record for their own trolling attempt.

I dont know what the future holds but I am sure that Certain posters with their magic touch might surely derail Root's chance at all time record.

 

[BouncerGuy]

Lots of Joe root threads are being made now. Comparing him with every batter is the mission here??

What next??? JOE root vs AB DE VILLIERS???

 

[Romali_rotti]

To be fair if Joe Root surpasses SRT, he must be considered one of the greatest of all time, regardless of him milking easy runs on flat decks...

 

[Ab Fan]

Why Anderson is not rated as top tier despite doing everything you listed and only missing piece is not able to do well on tough away tours?

It's the biggest factor for greatness. Well, let’s agree to disagree.

Anderson averages 34 in Australia and South Africa and 30 in India.

Root averages 45+ in South Africa and India.

Anderson career average is 26.5 while for Root, it is 51. Once it goes below 50, he will be rated lesser.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Anderson averages 34 in Australia and South Africa and 30 in India.

Root averages 45+ in South Africa and India.

Anderson career average is 26.5 while for Root, it is 51. Once it goes below 50, he will be rated lesser.

You didn't get the point here, he is comparing tough runs away from home, present an argument that negates this otherwise he is right, as of now you are beating around the bush.

On topic, Root is not even amongst top 15 batsman of all tiem

 

[Ab Fan]

You didn't get the point here, he is comparing tough runs away from home, present an argument that negates this otherwise he is right, as of now you are beating around the bush.

On topic, Root is not even amongst top 15 batsman of all tiem

Away from home, the toughest runs in this era is the runs scored in India. Williamson has failed in India but Root's average is 45 in India.

Now in India since 2015, of all overseas batsman, only Smith and Kohli have achieved success hitting three tons each and one in match winning cause. On tough pitch, Root has a hundred in Ranchi while Smith had one in Pune.

Additionally, the other top nations away from home vs Australia, England, New Zealand and South Africa during this time.

In Wanderers 2016, Root has a match winning hundred which was a tough pitch to bat on. Broad ran through SA lineup in that test in 2nd inning.

In New Zealand, Root averages 52 with scores of 226 and 153.

In England, he hit 7 tons vs India who are top bowling attacks and average 75 at home vs India. 2015 Ashes, he was the standout performer and player of series, scoring tough runs in touch conditions unlike Smith who got missing in that series except when he got flat decks in Lords and the dead rubber one.

Top 15 of all-time is a debatable argument. I surely would have him in top 20, but not sure about top 15. It's a long history so hard to say.

 

[mominsaigol]

If root passes Tendulkar in runs then he passes Tendulkar in runs plain and simple. Indians news to accept this fact that's it.

No ifs, and or buts.

Similarly if Root averages the same as Tendulkar but has more centuries in lesser amounts of games by comparison, then his rate of scoring is higher them Tendulkar plain and simple.

I don't mind debating intellectual people including intellectual Indians on the forumn but moron Indians who troll and go on to defend Sachin are not worth anyone's time.

This is a nation that got aggressive with icc and tried to defend a ball tamperer but when smith and warmer did the same thing these hypocrites justified it even though their case is exactly the same.

If they can defend Tendulkar for ball tampering then it's clear proof that they defend him on everything and overhype him.

The debate will always be about quality of bowlers faced, quality of pitches played on and opposition strength per era to decide the debate. In which case Sachin is superior since he faced harder bowlers on harder pitches. He didn't get the luxury of pakiatani phattas and horrible bowlers.


But none of this changes the fact that root has the same avg, and scored more centuries in a shorter period of time then Sachin, It's just root can't play 200 test games .

The gap isn't as high as people believe. People think Sachin is invincible and massively above everyone bit that isn't true.

Various eras and periods have shown players superior to him in certain no of years. What Sachin outlasted them on is the No of centuries scored and the fact that he never lost form.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

Lots of Joe root threads are being made now. Comparing him with every batter is the mission here??

What next??? JOE root vs AB DE VILLIERS???

Waiting for joe root vs afridi and Joe root vs muralitharan threads too.

 

[Ab Fan]

If root passes Tendulkar in runs then he passes Tendulkar in runs plain and simple. Indians news to accept this fact that's it.

No ifs, and or buts.

Similarly if Root averages the same as Tendulkar but has more centuries in lesser amounts of games by comparison, then his rate of scoring is higher them Tendulkar plain and simple.

I don't mind debating intellectual people including intellectual Indians on the forumn but moron Indians who troll and go on to defend Sachin are not worth anyone's time.

This is a nation that got aggressive with icc and tried to defend a ball tamperer but when smith and warmer did the same thing these hypocrites justified it even though their case is exactly the same.

If they can defend Tendulkar for ball tampering then it's clear proof that they defend him on everything and overhype him.

The debate will always be about quality of bowlers faced, quality of pitches played on and opposition strength per era to decide the debate. In which case Sachin is superior since he faced harder bowlers on harder pitches. He didn't get the luxury of pakiatani phattas and horrible bowlers.


But none of this changes the fact that root has the same avg, and scored more centuries in a shorter period of time then Sachin, It's just root can't play 200 test games .

The gap isn't as high as people believe. People think Sachin is invincible and massively above everyone bit that isn't true.

Various eras and periods have shown players superior to him in certain no of years. What Sachin outlasted them on is the No of centuries scored and the fact that he never lost form.

That's a false statement. Root's average after scoring a double ton is 51 now which is still lesser than Sachin's career average of 53.78.

Root averages lesser than Sachin, it is better to educate yourself rather than just blatantly trolling which Pakistani posters seems to have mastered these days due to regular shocks they are possibly getting in form of home test humiliations vs Bangladesh or whichever team is touring Pakistan these days and pouncing on them with innings defeat.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

That's a false statement. Root's average after scoring a double ton is 51 now which is still lesser than Sachin's career average of 53.78.

Root averages lesser than Sachin, it is better to educate yourself rather than just blatantly trolling which Pakistani posters seems to have mastered these days due to regular shocks they are possibly getting in form of home test humiliations vs Bangladesh or whichever team is touring Pakistan these days and pouncing on them with innings defeat.

Root is one of rare pakistani players who can be compared to sachin for last two decades bhai. People can be sensitive about their home heroes.

 

[Technics 1210]

That's a false statement. Root's average after scoring a double ton is 51 now which is still lesser than Sachin's career average of 53.78.

Root averages lesser than Sachin, it is better to educate yourself rather than just blatantly trolling which Pakistani posters seems to have mastered these days due to regular shocks they are possibly getting in form of home test humiliations vs Bangladesh or whichever team is touring Pakistan these days and pouncing on them with innings defeat.

Regular shocks in non-seqiutar. Cannot be a shock if it's regular. We are immune to such embarrassing losses now. Just like India are immune to losing ICC finals.

 

[BouncerGuy]

Stay on topic guys. No personal remarks or trolling.

 

[Ab Fan]

Regular shocks in non-seqiutar. Cannot be a shock if it's regular. We are immune to such embarrassing losses now. Just like India are immune to losing ICC finals.

We all know who the Sachinistas are, so stop pretending to be neutral, quit creating threads like this, and fess up, you don't want Root to break the leading Test run record.

I could care least if Root breaks Tendulkar record or not but it seems like the only reason Pakistani fans are watching cricket today is to hope that Root will break SRT record. Even if he breaks the record, both will still be remembered as among the best players of all time and their legacy will remain intact but the one permanent thing that is happening these days is Pakistan diminishing as a cricket nation so much so that you could pretty much expect other teams to stop touring Pakistan, they have gone this bad and stopped so low in Test cricket, there is nothing more humiliating than getting whitewashed at home vs Bangladesh of all nations. It is embarrassment of the highest order and I feel embarrassed to say so about an Asian cricket nation.

 

[Technics 1210]

I could care least if Root breaks Tendulkar record or not but it seems like the only reason Pakistani fans are watching cricket today is to hope that Root will break SRT record.

Yup, you do care.

Why do you care who what why Pakistan fans watch Root? In your analytical mind did you ever stop to consider you are on a UK forum so chances are even the Pakistan fans here are England fans too? I mean you're Indian but an AB fan!

You care if Root breaks Tendulkar's record, otherwise you wouldn't have mentioned Pakistan's embarrassing losses.

Have a great weekend.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Away from home, the toughest runs in this era is the runs scored in India. Williamson has failed in India but Root's average is 45 in India.

Now in India since 2015, of all overseas batsman, only Smith and Kohli have achieved success hitting three tons each and one in match winning cause. On tough pitch, Root has a hundred in Ranchi while Smith had one in Pune.

Additionally, the other top nations away from home vs Australia, England, New Zealand and South Africa during this time.

In Wanderers 2016, Root has a match winning hundred which was a tough pitch to bat on. Broad ran through SA lineup in that test in 2nd inning.

In New Zealand, Root averages 52 with scores of 226 and 153.

In England, he hit 7 tons vs India who are top bowling attacks and average 75 at home vs India. 2015 Ashes, he was the standout performer and player of series, scoring tough runs in touch conditions unlike Smith who got missing in that series except when he got flat decks in Lords and the dead rubber one.

Top 15 of all-time is a debatable argument. I surely would have him in top 20, but not sure about top 15. It's a long history so hard to say.

Why does he have only 6 hundreds in these countries if he has done so well?

A top batsman is defined by his ability to go big against top opposition, also you have presented so many positives but then why does he average 41 against top teams in their own den.

I have watched Root in India, the problem is he has done well exactly when a flat pitch is served, as soon as there is spin and zip in the surface he has heen horrible, the comparison with Smith makes no sense, Smiths 2016 series is Goated, Root has no such claims.

If you look at last two series in India, my assertion holds true.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Yup, you do care.

Why do you care who what why Pakistan fans watch Root? In your analytical mind did you ever stop to consider you are on a UK forum so chances are even the Pakistan fans here are England fans too? I mean you're Indian but an AB fan!

You care if Root breaks Tendulkar's record, otherwise you wouldn't have mentioned Pakistan's embarrassing losses.

Have a great weekend.

First let him break the record man, he is nowhere bear right now, he has turned 34 and has around 3 years more, very tough to get there.

Quite sure he wouldn’t reach there.

 

[Ab Fan]

Why does he have only 6 hundreds in these countries if he has done so well?

A top batsman is defined by his ability to go big against top opposition, also you have presented so many positives but then why does he average 41 against top teams in their own den.

I have watched Root in India, the problem is he has done well exactly when a flat pitch is served, as soon as there is spin and zip in the surface he has heen horrible, the comparison with Smith makes no sense, Smiths 2016 series is Goated, Root has no such claims.

If you look at last two series in India, my assertion holds true.

What about Ranchi test?

6 tons vs top nations away from home is not bad.

 

[Ab Fan]

Yup, you do care.

Why do you care who what why Pakistan fans watch Root? In your analytical mind did you ever stop to consider you are on a UK forum so chances are even the Pakistan fans here are England fans too? I mean you're Indian but an AB fan!

You care if Root breaks Tendulkar's record, otherwise you wouldn't have mentioned Pakistan's embarrassing losses.

Have a great weekend.

Nope, why would I care? Does it hurt Imran fans when they are told Kapil has more wickets than him or Wasim or Waqar?

You have put an illusion that Root breaking Tendulkar record is the only reason left for you to watch cricket and hence just trying to force your case on Indian fans over here by pitting Root above Tendulkar without any logical reasoning and just baseless futuristic predictions.

 

[Mamoon]

An overall average 46 and less than 10k runs completely disqualifies Amla from the list of Test greats.

This is comparison is disrespectful to Root.

 

[Mamoon]

Great number 3/4/5 in Test cricket average 50+.

Using arbitrary, subjective filters like “tough runs” etc. is just convenient deflection from the fact that Amla only averages 46.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Interesting comparison.

Amla could have been amongst the goats but he really regressed in his last few years.

In contrast Root with his lack of centuries could have been regarded as an Amla level player but he seems to have flicked a switch in the last few years and has an impressive conversion ratio for centuries.

What Root has lacked are big daddy hundreds. Amla has these and I think that's what actually inflates his averages in some countries in the OP. His 311* and I think he has a big double in India too probably take his average up a few nothches.

Now you can't really hold this against a player but I think its important to consider this alongside his overall career average.

 

[HARKS]

An overall average 46 and less than 10k runs completely disqualifies Amla from the list of Test greats.

This is comparison is disrespectful to Root.

Every player regress at end including your current favourite root, all great players at peak average more than 55+ more than what Root average now at his peak ,his average will also slide at end to 45+ then u speak who is disrespectful to who ,Actually no need to wait for long ,once Ashes starts in Australia we know where Root will stand.

 

[HARKS]

Actually Everybody is making a Mistake comparing a player when in peak to a player who finished his carrier, same thing happened to Tendulkar vs pointing/ Cook/ Amla/ and now Root

 

[Buffet]

In contrast Root with his lack of centuries could have been regarded as an Amla level player but he seems to have flicked a switch in the last few years and has an impressive conversion ratio for centuries.

What Root has lacked are big daddy hundreds. Amla has these and I think that's what actually inflates his averages in some countries in the OP. His 311* and I think he has a big double in India too probably take his average up a few nothches.

Good point about Amla having those daddy hundreds reflecting in average. I agree that averages shouldn't be taken in isolation, but Amla was far ahead in scoring tons. Frequency of tons reflect at what rate you stepped up in tough tours.

Amla scored ton every 6 innings and Root scored tons every 18 innings. That is a massive gap in going big frequency in tough tours. We can ignore the average for the reasons you pointed out. Average depends on plenty of things but your team can't really be in a good situation if the best batsman from you team score ton every 18 attempts.


Flicking the switch in conversion rate is again not showing up in Ind/SA/Aus in the last 5 years for him.

Root in SA/Ind/Aus last 5 years : 35 innings - avg 39 - 2 tons - 7 half tons

Root in WI/Pak/SL/NZ last 5 years: 23 innigns - avg 75 - 7 tons - 3 half tons [ unrleal conversion ]

Root in Home last 5 years: Avg 61 - 51 innings - avg 61 - 10 tons - 9 half tons [ fantstic conversion ]

Yes, his conversion rate , average, frequncy of tons have been out of the word in recent years at home or in easier place to tour. But during the same phase his performance ( avg + conversion rate + frequency of tons) has remained the same in toughest 3 places to tour for any batsman.

Conversaion rate switch has happened but with some limitations and that's the exact limitation I was pointing out in this thread. Let's see how well he does in Aus next time. He is a fantastic batsman to watch and hoping that he plays for at least 3-4 more years.

 

[Buffet]

Flicking the switch in conversion rate is again not showing up in Ind/SA/Aus in the last 5 years for him.

Root in SA/Ind/Aus last 5 years : 35 innings - avg 39 - 2 tons - 7 half tons

Root in WI/Pak/SL/NZ last 5 years: 23 innigns - avg 75 - 7 tons - 3 half tons [ unrleal conversion ]

Root in Home last 5 years: 51 innings - avg 61 - 10 tons - 9 half tons [ fantstic conversion ]

If we ignore Root in SA/Ind/Aus then Root's peak in the last 5 years is higher than Ponting's peak. Look at avearge in WI/Pak/SL/NZ and look at his home average. He really stepped up and scored 17-18 tons in the last 5 years.

 

[W63L35]

Runs scored by visiting teams per wicket,

View attachment 146765

Splitting your team stats into individual stats in the top 4 host countries that you circled....

Same time frame... min runs: 1500

 

[James]

What Root has lacked are big daddy hundreds.

I wouldn’t agree with this.
He has 6 double tons (including 4 in the subcontinent) and has twice passed 250.
Also 5 scores above 180.
4 other scores above 150.
Root’s 15 highest Test scores:

180 v Australia (H)
200* v Sri Lanka (H)
154* v India (H)
182* v West Indies (A)
254 v Pakistan (H)
190 v South Africa (H)
226 v New Zealand (A)
228 v Sri Lanka (A)
186 v Sri Lanka (A)
218 v India (A)
180* v India (H)
153* v West Indies (A)
176 v New Zealand (H)
153* v New Zealand (A)
262 v Pakistan (A)

Root is a class above Amla in almost every respect. Just three departments won by Amla currently:
- A century in Australia
- A triple hundred
- Superior facial hair

 

[sweep_shot]

I think this thread was made for Tendulkar. Nothing to do wtih Amla. LOL.

Anyway, Root is looking good to surpass Tendulkar. I think Root can finish his career as the 2nd best batter of all time (only after Bradman).

 

[Buffet]

Splitting your team stats into individual stats in the top 4 host countries that you circled....

Same time frame... min runs: 1500

View attachment 146777

Yah, Look at some other batsmen you highlighted. YK, Shiv, Moyo all have more tons despite playing only 20-25 tests.

Before someone makes an argument that Moyo, Shiv, YK played a bit earlier then look at Kane. Played at the same time, Kane has always been noted for his weakness in tough tours and frankly not rated high and yet he has the same number of tons as Root despite playing only 26 tests.

I don't think it needs era or peer comparison. If you are going to score only 4 tons in 72 innings despite crossing fifty 21 times then you have an issue in going big.

 

[Mamoon]

Every player regress at end including your current favourite root, all great players at peak average more than 55+ more than what Root average now at his peak ,his average will also slide at end to 45+ then u speak who is disrespectful to who ,Actually no need to wait for long ,once Ashes starts in Australia we know where Root will stand.

If Root ends his career with a <50 average, you can compare him to Amla. For now, there is no logic in comparing him to someone who not only failed to average 50 but also failed to score 10k runs.

Amla is simply not a great Test batsman. He is just a very good one. Root has entered the ATG conversation in Test cricket.

 

[Ab Fan]

If we ignore Root in SA/Ind/Aus then Root's peak in the last 5 years is higher than Ponting's peak. Look at avearge in WI/Pak/SL/NZ and look at his home average. He really stepped up and scored 17-18 tons in the last 5 years.

Include NZ as well for Root, they were top team in his era especially at home.

 

[Ab Fan]

All this proves one thing-

How much overrated is Ponting the test batsman, the guy averages low in top nations away from home in era of flat decks.

 

[sweep_shot]

Include NZ as well for Root, they were top team in his era especially at home.

Yes. @Buffet has a habit of omitting NZ. I don't know why he does that.

Stats can be manipulated to come up with many faulty conclusions.

 

[W63L35]

Yah, Look at some other batsmen you highlighted. YK, Shiv, Moyo all have more tons despite playing only 20-25 tests.

Before someone makes an argument that Moyo, Shiv, YK played a bit earlier then look at Kane. Played at the same time, Kane has always been noted for his weakness in tough tours and frankly not rated high and yet he has the same number of tons as Root despite playing only 26 tests.

I don't think it needs era or peer comparison. If you are going to score only 4 tons in 72 innings despite crossing fifty 21 times then you have an issue in going big.

If I restrict the from 1/1/2004 (date you picked) and 12/31/2017 (YK's last test year) .... and by lowering the minimum runs from 1500 to 1000....

A few interesting names appear in the list...at very interesting places in the ranking. Biggest shock is Dravid.

 

[Ab Fan]

Yes. @Buffet has a habit of omitting NZ. I don't know why he does that.

Stats can be manipulated to come up with many faulty conclusions.

I don’t want to undermine Root’s performance with bat. He has performed at home and away everywhere and the only blemish is his performance in Australia. That cannot be denied but otherwise, he has all boxes ticked.

 

[Buffet]

Include NZ as well for Root, they were top team in his era especially at home.

There are only 8 test teams who play test at any serious level. I picked 4 top test teams in that period who are actually competieve against each other. You want to add NZ as 5th option leaving only SL,WI,Pak?

No, NZ has not been in the same class as Aus, SA, Ind, Eng by a very long margin even during Root's career.

Let's take Top 5 sides against each other and see where NZ ends up in cherrypicked period where NZ is supposed to be a top team.

W/L ratio over all: NZ has around half W/L compared to worst team among Aus, SA, INd and Eng during Root's career.




Now before some one says what about home,

W/L at home: W/L of 1.1 even at home.




NZ has been clearly not in the same class as Aus, SA, Ind and Eng. That's the top 4 sides who have been competetive against each other as well.

What next, why not SL or Pakistan? You got to have cut off somewhere and top 4 is plenty when we only have 8 serious test playing nation. Root has been lacking big time in scoring tons in toughest tours.

 

[Buffet]

If I restrict the from 1/1/2004 (date you picked) and 12/31/2017 (YK's last test year) .... and by lowering the minimum runs from 1500 to 1000....

I just picked 2004 due to Amla debuting in 2004 and Root is still playing. 2004- till now to include entire career of Root and Amla.

 

[Ab Fan]

There are only 8 test teams who play test at any serious level. I picked 4 top test teams in that period who are actually competieve against each other. You want to add NZ as 5th option leaving only SL,WI,Pak?

No, NZ has not been in the same class as Aus, SA, Ind, Eng by a very long margin even during Root's career.

Let's take Top 5 sides against each other and see where NZ ends up in cherrypicked period where NZ is supposed to be a top team.

W/L ratio over all: NZ has around half W/L compared to worst team among Aus, SA, INd and Eng during Root's career.

View attachment 146779


Now before some one says what about home,

W/L at home: W/L of 1.1 even at home.

View attachment 146780


NZ has been clearly not in the same class as Aus, SA, Ind and Eng. That's the top 4 sides who have been competetive against each other as well.

What next, why not SL or Pakistan? You got to have cut off somewhere and top 4 is plenty when we only have 8 serious test playing nation. Root has been lacking big time in scoring tons in toughest tours.

Team records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Ind, Aus, NZ top 3. Top 5 are far ahead of rest.

 

[anikrc1]

The problem is you can't just assume the bowling strength of the teamd you picked up remained same throughout. For ecample in the 2 mega succesdful tour Amla had in Australia the first tour the bowlers were Johnson, lee boulinger and hauritz and siddle. No where close to the big 3 plus lyon line up that root faced. Second one was slightly better with the introduction of pattinson amd lyon. As soon as haxelowood starc Cummins and lyon statrted playing together Amla's record was modest against Australia both home and away. Same with India in the late 2000s flat pitches and weak linr ups Amla msde merry. Zaheer anf Harbhajan were the only two good bowlers. As soon as Ashwin Jadeja combo started playing together Amla's record was modest. Roots runs and centuries in India came against much tougher bowling line ups than that of Amla.

 

[sweep_shot]

The problem is you can't just assume the bowling strength of the teamd you picked up remained same throughout. For ecample in the 2 mega succesdful tour Amla had in Australia the first tour the bowlers were Johnson, lee boulinger and hauritz and siddle. No where close to the big 3 plus lyon line up that root faced. Second one was slightly better with the introduction of pattinson amd lyon. As soon as haxelowood starc Cummins and lyon statrted playing together Amla's record was modest against Australia both home and away. Same with India in the late 2000s flat pitches and weak linr ups Amla msde merry. Zaheer anf Harbhajan were the only two good bowlers. As soon as Ashwin Jadeja combo started playing together Amla's record was modest. Roots runs and centuries in India came against much tougher bowling line ups than that of Amla.

Very good point.

This is why these stats don't give us a full picture. In cricket, stats are not everything.

 

[Protea Fan]

Amla is not better than smith or de villiers then how can he outclass root who's far superior than the latters?

People cherry pick odd stats to prove their points which is part of such forums but my kind suggestion is that dont fell into this

 

[anikrc1]

All of these is not to Say that Amla was not a great batsman. In the 2008-2013 period I rate him the best in the world even in front of Sangakara. But that's also the period with the lowest standard of boeling in my time of watchimg cricket. The only great boeling linr up was Amla's own. Pakistan and Srinlanka was the only two country with a better bowling line up than Root's time. Indian nez zealnad west Indies Australia have much better bowling linr up in the 2016- upto noe period. Thr england Amla faced and the South Africa root faced have comparable bowling line ups.

 

[Buffet]

The problem is you can't just assume the bowling strength of the teamd you picked up remained same throughout. For ecample in the 2 mega succesdful tour Amla had in Australia the first tour the bowlers were Johnson, lee boulinger and hauritz and siddle. No where close to the big 3 plus lyon line up that root faced. Second one was slightly better with the introduction of pattinson amd lyon. As soon as haxelowood starc Cummins and lyon statrted playing together Amla's record was modest against Australia both home and away. Same with India in the late 2000s flat pitches and weak linr ups Amla msde merry. Zaheer anf Harbhajan were the only two good bowlers. As soon as Ashwin Jadeja combo started playing together Amla's record was modest. Roots runs and centuries in India came against much tougher bowling line ups than that of Amla.

That's a good point.

We can't really then compare across periods because all teams don't have the same bowling unit all the time.

So let's see for periods when Root played, All these bowlers averaged below 25 at home. All touring sides had to face them more or less.

Eng - Anderson, Broad
Ind - Ashwin, Jadeja , Bumrah, Shami
SA - Steyn, Vern, Rabada
Aus - Cummins, Starc, Hazlewood, Johnson

Southee, Wagner, Boult etc all averged higher than 25 at home after 2012, so including them means we are going too far down in quality. Even after including NZ, he just has 6 tons in around 90 innings combined so let's not get side tracked.

Since we can't compare players who played even 5-7 years before due to bowling not remaining the same, we can compare him with others who played during his career.

Root has highest number of innings(72) and yet he has just 4 tons.







Where is those great touring series for Root where he scored heavily?

Kohli had 4 tons in Aus in one series.
Warner had 3 tons in SA in one series.
Smith has 3 tons in India in one series.
Pujara has 3 tons in Aus in one series.
Smith had 3 tons on Eng in one series.
Daryl Mitchell had 3 tons in ENg in one series.
Kohli had a great series in Eng after his struggle and I think 2 tons.

Listing them is not for proving that all these batsmen were greater than Root, but simply to show that bowling was good but not so good that no one was able to score consistently big. I see lots of posters using bowling quality being high as reason for Root not able to score big in series, but you can't really be top tier without scoring big in tough tours few times.

I am not even expecting dominating performacne in tough away series but just have decent frequency to score tons in tough away series. Show that you can score big runs with some frequency.