Kapil Dev: "Yes, India are chokers, there is no denying it!"

[Ab Fan]

https://www.hindustantimes.com/cric...a-s-t20-world-cup-defeat-101668157462953.html

When it comes to expressing his emotions or thoughts, Kapil Dev is as raw as they come. Known for his blunt and to-the-point assessment, Kapil's statements have in the past created ripples, be it his message for Arjun Tendulkar comparing him to father Sachin, or comments on Virat Kohli when he was out of form.

The former captain has been vocal with his opinions throughout the T20 World Cup, and India's ouster from the tournament after a humiliating 10-wicket defeat has triggered Kapil to an extent that he labelled Team India with the dreaded 'C' word. Given India's track record in ICC tournaments in the last nine years, Kapil said that while this team has brought plenty of laurels to the country by winning some major series, the fact that it always stumbles in ICC tournaments is extremely alarming and concerning

See, now that the match is over, it is unfair that we should come down this hard on the Indian team. Yes, they did not play well and criticism is justified. But as far as today's match, all we can say is that England read the pitch better and played better cricket. I will not dwell into the details and won't go all out in bashing them because these are the same players who have gotten us a lot of respect in the past but yes, they are chokers. There is no denying it - after coming so close, they choke. I get it but I would still say that the team needs to look ahead. It's time for the youngster players to come forward and take charge," Kapil said on ABP News.

 

[Suleiman]

I wouldn’t stay chokers, they just have a bunch of out of form players. Their entire batting line up is carried by 3 guys. SKY, Kohli and Pandya. Left a bunch of genuine pacemen at home for whatever reason.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

As I posted in the other thread.

I think Gawaskar really nailed it.

He said, in IPL you play in small boundaries with all the focus on sixes AND pace bowling job done by foreign players.
So Indians have outsourced the pace bowling in IPL's smaller grounds.

And as a result, India doesn't produce good wicket taking pace bowlers - AND India f@arts out when the sample IPL batsmen are made to play in larger boundary grounds.

 

[jnaveen1980]

India has beaten the same ENglish side a lot of times. Chasing/defending. But on a flat pitch with small ground dimensions in some areas if you let them chase a modest target they are going to put you away 10 out of 10 times. May not be 10 wicket win all the time. It will be a loss neverthless. If you ask England to chase 168 against on the same ground they will do it again. India didn't have the personnel to contain them there. Only way they could have won is by letting them set the target. England bowling was by far the worst India faced in this contest excluding associates. Even bangladesh bowling was better than this. It is a joke Stokes opening the bowling and getting away with cheap overs.

 

[Kianig89]

The self loathing in full flow by Kapil, to decide what is choking BcCI should arrange a Mandela Cup with SA to get a taste of choking, cjokers got outplayed by Buttlers

 

[Local.Dada]

As I posted in the other thread.

India beat Aus in Aus in T20 and test series last time and the odi series was a close 2-1. On previous tour won odi series there as well.

Won odi and t20 series in other SENA countries as well.

Surreal that regular posters on the forum are going into so many theories lol.

It’s a tournament and you have to get the job done but just FYI defending champs Aus are out, Pak all credit to them for making it but would have been eliminated if not for a freak win by Ned and lost to Zim. The other finalist England lost to Ireland.

Yes the loss hurts but there is no rocket science here. T20 is a lottery format and the wc makes it even more lottery. Good teams have marginal difference to pick among themselves so some teams lose out.

There isn’t anything else more than that.

 

[gazza619]

We need to find a word which is worse than chokers.

 

[MenInG]

Seems a lot of kneejerk stuff at the moment.

 

[Saj]

Chokers?

But we are led to believe that the IPL prepares these guys for the big matches and makes them mentally tough and unbreakable?

 

[jnaveen1980]

Seems a lot of kneejerk stuff at the moment.

True. They just got outplayed by a better side. It is not like UAE beating India. They lost to tournament favorites. Everyone knew this was a terrible squad from the outset. I don't know what the big deal here is. Chin up and move on.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Seems a lot of kneejerk stuff at the moment.

It was the manner of the defeat I think. A loss to England is no great shame, but they got absolutely thrashed. It wasn't even a contest, and that would be hard to take for a nation which has prided itself as top dogs very publicly.

 

[Local.Dada]

Chokers?

But we are led to believe that the IPL prepares these guys for the big matches and makes them mentally tough and unbreakable?

That doesn’t translate to being invincible and can’t be defeated. Also foreign players play in the IPL too not just Indians and in many cases rookie foreign cricketers as well.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

Seems a lot of kneejerk stuff at the moment.

And all this is happening when we don't care about International cricket. Imagine the reactions when we start caring about these tournaments.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

India beat Aus in Aus in T20 and test series last time and the odi series was a close 2-1. On previous tour won odi series there as well.

Won odi and t20 series in other SENA countries as well.

Surreal that regular posters on the forum are going into so many theories lol.

It’s a tournament and you have to get the job done but just FYI defending champs Aus are out, Pak all credit to them for making it but would have been eliminated if not for a freak win by Ned and lost to Zim. The other finalist England lost to Ireland.

Yes the loss hurts but there is no rocket science here. T20 is a lottery format and the wc makes it even more lottery. Good teams have marginal difference to pick among themselves so some teams lose out.

There isn’t anything else more than that.

Dude, your IPL Indian bowlers were not able to take a wicket in 170 runs.
This is not bad luck or a mishap or a bad day.

 

[jnaveen1980]

It was the manner of the defeat I think. A loss to England is no great shame, but they got absolutely thrashed. It wasn't even a contest, and that would be hard to take for a nation which has prided itself as top dogs very publicly.

India has chased down 200 against Engladn with one wicket down as well. In T20 when you defend a modest total you are going to bowl full length with a bit more attacking field. So it is not that hard to register a massive win. India beat the mighty England by 10 wickets early this year. It can happen with English side.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...gland-vs-india-1st-odi-1276907/full-scorecard

 

[Ab Fan]

Rohit Sharma and KL Rahul both are chokers.

Rohit has played 8 T20I tournaments and about 6 of them as opener but has zero tournament where he has dominated.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Rohit Sharma and KL Rahul both are chokers.

Rohit has played 8 T20I tournaments and about 6 of them as opener but has zero tournament where he has dominated.

Honestly against this attack if Rohit can't score a 40 ball 100 he is not going to make any runs. This was halwa attack from England. That was the sad part. India ended up with paltry 168.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Rohit Sharma and KL Rahul both are chokers.

Rohit has played 8 T20I tournaments and about 6 of them as opener but has zero tournament where he has dominated.

Having said taht it is not surprising. Rohit played exactly like this entire IPL. Absolutely no touch, form. Struggled almost against every domestic bowler. KL rahul same way entire ipl consistently scored at a strike rate of under 100 first 6 overs. Every single match in the IPL. But these guys are part of BCCI contract. So they will play regardless of whether someone is better or not. They doll out 7 crores to these guys every year.

 

[TheSultan]

I can’t argue with India’s greatest ever cricketer

 

[Ab Fan]

Having said taht it is not surprising. Rohit played exactly like this entire IPL. Absolutely no touch, form. Struggled almost against every domestic bowler. KL rahul same way entire ipl consistently scored at a strike rate of under 100 first 6 overs. Every single match in the IPL. But these guys are part of BCCI contract. So they will play regardless of whether someone is better or not. They doll out 7 crores to these guys every year.

Rohit has learnt the ODI batting rate and he has gotten used to with that which means he need more than a few overs to get himself in before he moves to fifth and sixth gear. It hasn't worked for him in WT20Is in his entire career. In the earlier part of his career, he played 1-2 good knocks but in last 2-3 tournaments,did nothing vs good teams.

They need to play overseas leagues, that's when they will go out of their comfort zone and look to play impact knocks as competition for overseas spot would be higher in any league and stat padding wont work. In IPL, they can produce a 200 run tournament over 15 games or score 300 runs at 120 odd strike rates and still no one can drop them.

 

[JaDed]

Seems a lot of kneejerk stuff at the moment.

We deserve it right now, if not there won't be any changes.

 

[Suleiman]

Honestly against this attack if Rohit can't score a 40 ball 100 he is not going to make any runs. This was halwa attack from England. That was the sad part. India ended up with paltry 168.

Watched Rohit’s innings. He was trying his hardest to hit out but there were many plays and misses. Looked like Babar’s innings Vs Bangladesh. No timing whatsoever.

Hopefully just out of touch.

 

[JaDed]

Watched Rohit’s innings. He was trying his hardest to hit out but there were many plays and misses. Looked like Babar’s innings Vs Bangladesh. No timing whatsoever.

Hopefully just out of touch.

Then he should accept that, instead he put the bowlers under the bus, every single time a captain's playing ability is finished in SC, he tries to put the players down.

Just for his postmatch remarks he should stripped of his captaincy after that knock.

 

[cricketjoshila]

We deserve it right now, if not there won't be any changes.

Has one person criticized the selection committee? If not, what changes are we expecting?

We have had absolute clowns at the selection committee since last 2-3 terms.

Roger Binny selecting his son for the Indian team.

The less said about the joke of a committe that MSK prasad led, the better.

Now this committee.

It seems since Mohinder Amarnath was sacked for demanding the sacking of Dhoni in 2012, selectors are now afraid to take hard decisions because the selectors are all "light weight".

 

[Mamoon]

Yeah Kapil, unfortunately the current lot don’t have the same luck that you needed to fluke the 1983 World Cup final against that West Indies team.

They played you on your home turf only a few months later and utterly destroyed you in both Tests and ODIs.

It was an opportunity for you to show the world that your team did not fluke two games West Indies in the 1983 World Cup and were good enough to compete with them, but unfortunately your boys choked….or perhaps were made to choke.

Pathetic statements by a former captain.

 

[JaDed]

Has one person criticized the selection committee? If not, what changes are we expecting?

We have had absolute clowns at the selection committee since last 2-3 terms.

Roger Binny selecting his son for the Indian team.

The less said about the joke of a committe that MSK prasad led, the better.

Now this committee.

It seems since Mohinder Amarnath was sacked for demanding the sacking of Dhoni in 2012, selectors are now afraid to take hard decisions because the selectors are all "light weight".

Changes are meant to be across Indian team coach, management, coaching absolutely everyone.

 

[JaDed]

Yeah Kapil, unfortunately the current lot don’t have the same luck that you needed to fluke the 1983 World Cup final against that West Indies team.

They played you on your home turf only a few months later and utterly destroyed you in both Tests and ODIs.

It was an opportunity for you to show the world that your team did not fluke two games West Indies in the 1983 World Cup and were good enough to compete with them, but unfortunately your boys choked….or perhaps were made to choke.

Pathetic statements by a former captain.

How does one Fluke two games in the same tournament against the might WI(even Viv has acknowledged how India had self belief), also India won the 1985 Championship again to prove we were the best ODI side for those 2-3 years.

 

[pakistani pride]

I wouldn’t stay chokers, they just have a bunch of out of form players. Their entire batting line up is carried by 3 guys. SKY, Kohli and Pandya. Left a bunch of genuine pacemen at home for whatever reason.

And they chocke when it matters.
Mr 360 all the hype.

 

[Savak]

Billion Dollar industry producing chokers.

 

[Hextro]

India didn't choke against England, they were simply outplayed. You can only choke if you lose after coming close to victory. At no point was India close to victory against England. There wasn't a massive play by England where for example India lost 3 or 4 wickets in the first 2 overs or something, which means that India was allowed to salvage the match and make it competitive but England proved that they are the better team in all three facets of the game in T20s. There is no universe where choking causes a side to lose by 10 wickets.

It's like saying Afghanistan choked against England in the world cup when in reality England is just simply better. England is the best T20 team in the world. They beat India with their B team in a world cup semi-final, if that Isn't a show of dominance then I don't know what is.

The only thing that can stop a full-strength England is a bowling lineup that can force them to their backfoot. Early wickets and constant pressure on the field mixed with aggressive captaincy. India's bowlers went into a shell and started bowling defensive lines after England's openers started their assault, I don't blame them but they should know by now that nowadays a batsman can hit any line or length, so bowling wide outside off or length isn't going to stop them from attacking in fact it will only give the batsman more confidence.

I feel like I've seen the type of performance India gave against England many times from them in recent memory. They've had this type of performance in the World Test Championship, against Pakistan in last year's world cup, in the champions trophy final, against New Zealand in last year's world cup, against England in the deciding test match, and again yesterday against England. The commonality between all these performances is that India's bowling failed them. It's almost as if you can feel their bowling giving up after they don't get a wicket in the first 3 overs.

These bowlers were never going to win India anything because they lack pace and aggression. Bringing back someone like Bumrah won't make a difference because he is from the same mold as the rest of them. In fact, Ashdeep is a much better T20 bowler than Bumrah and India got lucky that Bumrah got injured. Sure Ashdeep lacks aggression and will but unlike Bumrah he has the ability to take wickets at any stage of the innings, so in a sense, Bumrah getting injured was a blessing in disguise for India. India probably wouldn't have made it to the semi-final if Bumrah was playing.

So all in all, if Ind wants to change its fortunes all it has to do is find new bowlers, sounds easy enough for the most "talented" cricket nation in the world. Also, they need to replace Rohit and Rahul before the next T20 world cup, both these guys are past their sell date and they look like they want to be dropped.

 

[Mamoon]

How does one Fluke two games in the same tournament against the might WI(even Viv has acknowledged how India had self belief), also India won the 1985 Championship again to prove we were the best ODI side for those 2-3 years.

How does the best ODI side lose a home series 5-0?

India 1983-1985 was a cup team at best. An inferior team can win a tournament or two but they cannot beat a superior team over a long series.

Tournaments are nothing but a string of one-off showdowns. A lot of it is dictated by what happens on that given day.

People can talk about how important winning tournaments are etc., but the real litmus test of the relative strength of two sides is a long series.

When you play the same team over and over again that is where you can truly gauge their relative strength and weakness.

For example, Pakistan can beat England in the one-final on Sunday, but they will lose a 7 match series to England 99% of the time simply because England is a better side and will win more matches over a big sample.

 

[JaDed]

How does the best ODI side lose a home series 5-0?

India 1983-1985 was a cup team at best. An inferior team can win a tournament or two but they cannot beat a superior team over a long series.

Tournaments are nothing but a string of one-off showdowns. A lot of it is dictated by what happens on that given day.

People can talk about how important winning tournaments are etc., but the real litmus test of the relative strength of two sides is a long series.

When you play the same team over and over again that is where you can truly gauge their relative strength and weakness.

For example, Pakistan can beat England in the one-final on Sunday, but they will lose a 7 match series to England 99% of the time simply because England is a better side and will win more matches over a big sample.

That's how it's across sports from the world except 3(baseball,ice hockey,basketball) from USA. If consistency is what matters then there is a format for that in cricket, its called test series.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Rohit Sharma and KL Rahul both are chokers.

Rohit has played 8 T20I tournaments and about 6 of them as opener but has zero tournament where he has dominated.

Agreed. Rohit disappears in ICC tournaments. Especially in Semis and Finals. KL has always been a mental midget. He bats like a 5 year old girl who is about to cry when the pressure is on.

 

[Mamoon]

That's how it's across sports from the world except 3(baseball,ice hockey,basketball) from USA. If consistency is what matters then there is a format for that in cricket, it’s called test series.

Consistency is the only measure of how good a team is or how good a player is. Even an 18 handicap golfer can shoot par on a given day, but he will never be able to shoot par over 5 consecutive rounds.

If you want to look at the best teams in cricket, don’t look at the trophies. Look at their W/L ratios over a large sample.

This is why league format is superior than cup format. You need to be a lot better to win the league format regardless of what the sport is.

 

[RexRex]

I suspect Rohit Sharma might have played with fear and maybe thought his career was on the line if he failed in this semifinal. He is what 37 ? I don't see him changing before the 2023 ODI WC and he's woefully unfit, hope he's given the push by bcci.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I know Indian fans love their 1983 team. But the idea that, that World Cup win was anything more than a fluke is utterly ludicrous. The gulf between that West Indies side and that India side was night and day. One side had fierce fast-bowlers that struck fear into the hearts of batsmen, and batsmen like Greendige, Haynes and Richards who put bowlers to the sword for fun, while the other team had gentle medium pacers that even tailenders wouldn't be scared of.

1983 was a great underdog story for India. But let's not act like they were anywhere close to that West Indies in any department. It was one of the great upsets in World Cup cricket and arguably the greatest fluke victory of all-time, precisely because India looked like absolute minnows infront of that West Indies team.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Watched Rohit’s innings. He was trying his hardest to hit out but there were many plays and misses. Looked like Babar’s innings Vs Bangladesh. No timing whatsoever.

Hopefully just out of touch.

Anyone who followed IPL 2022 are very much familiar with that

 

[RexRex]

1983 was a great underdog story for India. But let's not act like they were anywhere close to that West Indies in any department. It was one of the great upsets in World Cup cricket and arguably the greatest fluke victory of all-time, precisely because India looked like absolute minnows infront of that West Indies team.

Sure the West Indies were superior team in every aspect but they choked in the final. It means nothing to say India fluked it. The WC has always been about the knockout pressure.

 

[JaDed]

I know Indian fans love their 1983 team. But the idea that, that World Cup win was anything more than a fluke is utterly ludicrous. The gulf between that West Indies side and that India side was night and day. One side had fierce fast-bowlers that struck fear into the hearts of batsmen, and batsmen like Greendige, Haynes and Richards who put bowlers to the sword for fun, while the other team had gentle medium pacers that even tailenders wouldn't be scared of.

1983 was a great underdog story for India. But let's not act like they were anywhere close to that West Indies in any department. It was one of the great upsets in World Cup cricket and arguably the greatest fluke victory of all-time, precisely because India looked like absolute minnows infront of that West Indies team.

Out of 3 games in that tournament against Windies, we won 2 including the final. Check the format of that tournament it was hard to fluke it, it required consistency. We beat Aus once, Windies twice (including final), Eng in the semis.

We also then went on to win the 1985 WCC with a very similar team, how is that a fluke?We fluked two games against Windies and other teams?

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Sure the West Indies were superior team in every aspect but they choked in the final. It means nothing to say they fluked it.

Just because something hurts your feelings doesn't mean it isn't true. Also don't see how both things can't be true. Windies had a bad day and choked, but it was still a fluke victory for India, who would have gotten smashed by the very same team on most days.

 

[Xoib]

Consistency is the only measure of how good a team is or how good a player is. Even an 18 handicap golfer can shoot par on a given day, but he will never be able to shoot par over 5 consecutive rounds.

If you want to look at the best teams in cricket, don’t look at the trophies. Look at their W/L ratios over a large sample.

This is why league format is superior than cup format. You need to be a lot better to win the league format regardless of what the sport is.

Sports is at the end of the day about winning the important silverware this is what get the eyes of the cauals. Its the one which puts food on the tableb for the oraganizers, players, coaches etc. Rest is all snobbery for the nerds to make themselves feel superior.

I would like Pakistan to be like peak Australia but if we cant be then its better to be a great tournamnent team then be a bilateral bully like South Africa.

 

[emranabbas]

They are not chokers they a rubbish

 

[jnaveen1980]

Just because something hurts your feelings doesn't mean it isn't true. Also don't see how both things can't be true. Windies had a bad day and choked, but it was still a fluke victory for India, who would have gotten smashed by the very same team on most days.

Not really India beat West Indies 3 out of 4 straight encounters. One in West Indies. 2 in the world cup.

 

[RexRex]

Just because something hurts your feelings doesn't mean it isn't true. Also don't see how both things can't be true. Windies had a bad day and choked, but it was still a fluke victory for India, who would have gotten smashed by the very same team on most days.

My feelings aren't hurt. You're projecting your own emotional fragility wrt a ball game onto me. I was just making an argument.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Out of 3 games in that tournament against Windies, we won 2 including the final. Check the format of that tournament it was hard to fluke it, it required consistency. We beat Aus once, Windies twice (including final), Eng in the semis.

We also then went on to win the 1985 WCC with a very similar team, how is that a fluke?We fluked two games against Windies and other teams?

India won two close games against the West Indies and beat a very mediocre Australian side in another. They also received an absolute hammering from that same mediocre Australian side by 150+ runs (IIRC)...a match in which the 'black sheep' of the Chappell brethren Trevor Chappell scored a ton. They were also hammered by West Indies in the other group game.

India punched above their weight in that tournament, and perhaps the conditions ended up suiting their pack of medium pacers, but like I said, it's laughable to even compare that West Indies side to that Indian side. India played some good cricket on the day and managed to cause an upset, but on most days that West Indies side would have smashed that Indian side into oblivion with considerable ease.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Changes are meant to be across Indian team coach, management, coaching absolutely everyone.

The dinner is on me, if that happens.

 

[CricketingMinds]

Unfair on the Indian cricketers. They work hard, play hard. Wins and losses are part of the game. It is unfortunate that India has come so close to winning the following ICC trophies but haven't gotten there for some odd reason.

2014 - T20 World Cup Finalist
2015 - ODI World Cup Semi-Finalist
2016 - T20 World Cup Semi-Finalist
2017 - Champions Trophy Finalist
2019 - ODI World Cup Semi-Finalist
2021 - World Test Championship Finalist
2022 - T20 World Cup Semi-Finalist

7 tournaments:
- 3 Runners up (2014, 2017 & 2021 WTC)
- 4 Semi-Finals (2015, 2016, 2019 and 2022)

That is pretty remarkable high performance IMO

Is there any other team who has reached the Finals/SFs as consistently? I don't think so.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

My feelings aren't hurt. You're projecting your own emotional fragility wrt a ball game onto me. I was just making an argument.

I reckon you displayed your lack of knowledge about the history of the game when you said that it meant nothing to say India fluked it. Because that is what accurately depicts the gulf that existed between that Indian side and that West Indies side at the time.

There have been a number of upsets throughout World Cup history. But nothing comes close to that one because of how good that West Indies side led by Clive Lloyd was and how mediocre that Indian side was. And yet it was India who not only won, but won on the day that it mattered most.

 

[JaDed]

India won two close games against the West Indies and beat a very mediocre Australian side in another. They also received an absolute hammering from that same mediocre Australian side by 150+ runs (IIRC)...a match in which the 'black sheep' of the Chappell brethren Trevor Chappell scored a ton. They were also hammered by West Indies in the other group game.

India punched above their weight in that tournament, and perhaps the conditions ended up suiting their pack of medium pacers, but like I said, it's laughable to even compare that West Indies side to that Indian side. India played some good cricket on the day and managed to cause an upset, but on most days that West Indies side would have smashed that Indian side into oblivion with considerable ease.

That's strange logic to judge, even if we beat a team 2-1 in a tournament, we fluked it? Conditions suited it etc etc? I'm not saying Windies wasn't stronger overall but calling it a fluke to win it 2-1 is basically going across sports and awarding the win to most consistent team.

Are you suggesting we go on to make cricket as league format and who tops the table wins the championship?

 

[RexRex]

I reckon you displayed your lack of knowledge about the history of the game when you said that it meant nothing to say India fluked it. Because that is what accurately depicts the gulf that existed between that Indian side and that West Indies side at the time.

There have been a number of upsets throughout World Cup history. But nothing comes close to that one because of how good that West Indies side led by Clive Lloyd was and how mediocre that Indian side was. And yet it was India who not only won, but won on the day that it mattered most.

I was being more philosophical here. The question ultimately comes down to - should we take that victory seriously or not ? Why should a fluke be celebrated ? Should anyone ultimately get satisfaction from a fluke event ? Because ultimately it wasn't a triumph of skill but pure chance.

 

[Caved12]

Yeah Kapil, unfortunately the current lot don’t have the same luck that you needed to fluke the 1983 World Cup final against that West Indies team.

They played you on your home turf only a few months later and utterly destroyed you in both Tests and ODIs.

It was an opportunity for you to show the world that your team did not fluke two games West Indies in the 1983 World Cup and were good enough to compete with them, but unfortunately your boys choked….or perhaps were made to choke.

Pathetic statements by a former captain.

Kapil wants his team to win the world cup and is not as blind as you are. I know you are upset because India lost yesterday but going around and calling every win a fluke is a bit too much. I know you were not around at the time when the 1983 world cup was played, so you must have read all this in a book. Did the book also mention that 1983 win was a fluke?
Nothing but pathetic posts by you in every thread of this forum in the past few days

 

[Saj]

Kapil is a winner, a leader, a man who played fearless cricket. It must break his heart to see some of the current fake superstars performing so poorly.

 

[Corridor of Uncertainty]

Kapil has courage to say things which sadly the other Indian pundits do not possess.

I don’t agree with the choking though personality. But at least he has the guts.

 

[Nasty Naz]

Man some of the overreactions you see sometimes is mind-boggling. There can only be ONE, and I repeat, ONE winner. Reaching the semi's and losing to a better team with the greatest batting lineup cricket has ever seen isn't a shame. T20 is also an extremely fickle format that often gets overlooked in talks where literally anything can happen and anyone can win on a given day.

 

[Stewie]

Consistency is the only measure of how good a team is or how good a player is. Even an 18 handicap golfer can shoot par on a given day, but he will never be able to shoot par over 5 consecutive rounds.

If you want to look at the best teams in cricket, don’t look at the trophies. Look at their W/L ratios over a large sample.

This is why league format is superior than cup format. You need to be a lot better to win the league format regardless of what the sport is.

Indians though like to label such lengthy bilateral series as meaningless and only give weight to ICC events which is why some Pakistanis are loving it right now rubbing their face in this humiliation.

P.S Pakistan played a 7 match series against England just before the world cup and lost 3 to 4. I think we competed very well against them.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Man some of the overreactions you see sometimes is mind-boggling. There can only be ONE, and I repeat, ONE winner. Reaching the semi's and losing to a better team with the greatest batting lineup cricket has ever seen isn't a shame. T20 is also an extremely fickle format that often gets overlooked in talks where literally anything can happen and anyone can win on a given day.

Even including this match England's overall team strike rate is well below par in this world T20. It was a case of India gifting them a win on a platter by not assessing the conditions very well while batting.

 

[Stewie]

Even including this match England's overall team strike rate is well below par in this world T20. It was a case of India gifting them a win on a platter by not assessing the conditions very well while batting.

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Cricket is such a funny game. I know they were all praises for England in one of the games where they played very conservatively and scored 150 or so because the pitch was slow and they won the game. They won the game because it was "their" assessment of the pitch, and they were backed by bowlers who bowled according to their assessment of the wicket.

But there is no real yardstick here now, is there? We are all saying they assessed it wrong, but what if their assessment was correct and either the opposition batted extremely well or the bowling bowled like crap.

There are a number of possibilities. Let us not just say they assessed the conditions incorrectly.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Cricket is such a funny game. I know they were all praises for England in one of the games where they played very conservatively and scored 150 or so because the pitch was slow and they won the game. They won the game because it was "their" assessment of the pitch, and they were backed by bowlers who bowled according to their assessment of the wicket.

But there is no real yardstick here now, is there? We are all saying they assessed it wrong, but what if their assessment was correct and either the opposition batted extremely well or the bowling bowled like crap.

There are a number of possibilities. Let us not just say they assessed the conditions incorrectly.

By 15th over when Pandya started striking the ball at will it was clearly proven India got everything wrong. Come on you can't say Livingstone should get away with 3 overs 21 runs on that turf or even Adil Rashid 4 overs 20 runs.

 

[Farabi]

India beat Aus in Aus in T20 and test series last time and the odi series was a close 2-1. On previous tour won odi series there as well.

Won odi and t20 series in other SENA countries as well.

Surreal that regular posters on the forum are going into so many theories lol.

It’s a tournament and you have to get the job done but just FYI defending champs Aus are out, Pak all credit to them for making it but would have been eliminated if not for a freak win by Ned and lost to Zim. The other finalist England lost to Ireland.

Yes the loss hurts but there is no rocket science here. T20 is a lottery format and the wc makes it even more lottery. Good teams have marginal difference to pick among themselves so some teams lose out.

There isn’t anything else more than that.

If T20 is a "lottery" format, then why haven't Zim and Ned making the semis?
Why are 4 of the top 5 ICC ranked teams in the semis?

Upsets have happened in ODI WCs as well and I saw once Kenya made an ODI WC semi final.

What I see is that T20I the margins are smaller but the better team does win more consistently.

 

[heddie19]

I wouldn’t stay chokers, they just have a bunch of out of form players. Their entire batting line up is carried by 3 guys. SKY, Kohli and Pandya. Left a bunch of genuine pacemen at home for whatever reason.

3 Guys are more than enough for a 20 over match

 

[jnaveen1980]

If T20 is a "lottery" format, then why haven't Zim and Ned making the semis?
Why are 4 of the top 5 ICC ranked teams in the semis?

Upsets have happened in ODI WCs as well and I saw once Kenya made an ODI WC semi final.

What I see is that T20I the margins are smaller but the better team does win more consistently.

In 2021 Australia was absolutely canned by England. Why didn't England win?

 

[Kriketer]

It's getting worse with Indian fans and their excuse mill it seems. Now T20 is just a luck based format? You are there to win the tournament, its as simple as that. You chest beat about IPL and Indian team hence you need to prove it on the ground but you choke when it matters.

You tend to make the semis with ease because you play well in group especially against minnows where you annihilate them, but the moment when there's a big do or die game, you end up choking and head back home empty handed. Choker tag is absolutely justifiable, that's what you are. Stop crying over it and work on your end games and mental build up to win big tournaments. India can never be a team like West Indies and Australia who dominated for decades through and through, Indian pretend they are as good but they end up falling flat hence they get all the criticism.

 

[Stewie]

By 15th over when Pandya started striking the ball at will it was clearly proven India got everything wrong. Come on you can't say Livingstone should get away with 3 overs 21 runs on that turf or even Adil Rashid 4 overs 20 runs.

Well if thats the case then we can always say Babar and Rizwan got it all wrong ALL THE TIME 24/7/365. Maybe its not their assessment but limitation? Maybe its the plan, in fact? Could be a number of things. You simply cannot plonk your foot down and say "they really did not read tht right"

I think its a pointless debate. There are too many factors involved. Which is why I said cricket is a funny game. When Afridi used to whack every ball and get out for 20 in 12 balls, it was called stupid. Now its called BazBall. I mean ***!

LOL, such is cricket. An inswinging yorker at the death that takes the stump out is brilliant but if the batsman plays a scoop for six, its called "misdirected", or "radar was off" did you ever notice that. The experts are also funny, the commentators more so.

The beauty of cricket is uncertainty, yes there is skill, yes there is other stuff but a lot depends on conditions, what side of the bed the players woke up on, the toss, whether the player got some the night before or had a bad fight with the missus, these all things somehow come into play.

Oh.. let's not forget the umpires either, after that noball Kohli was awarded upon whining. They ALL MATTER!

 

[Mobashir]

Consistency is the only measure of how good a team is or how good a player is. Even an 18 handicap golfer can shoot par on a given day, but he will never be able to shoot par over 5 consecutive rounds.

If you want to look at the best teams in cricket, don’t look at the trophies. Look at their W/L ratios over a large sample.

This is why league format is superior than cup format. You need to be a lot better to win the league format regardless of what the sport is.

So the same guy who told everyone that only world cups performances matter is now telling that JAMODI'S are more important? This is how you called the bilateral series?

India is a poor team and they proved it match after match in the world cup and Asia cup and also the 2021 world cup.

In this world cup the only match they played well was against Zimbabwe, so they proved they are better than Zimbabwe.
They fluked a last ball win against Pakistan in the last three overs. They fluked a last ball win against Bangladesh thanks to rain.
They were logically hammered by SA and England.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Well if thats the case then we can always say Babar and Rizwan got it all wrong ALL THE TIME 24/7/365. Maybe its not their assessment but limitation? Maybe its the plan, in fact? Could be a number of things. You simply cannot plonk your foot down and say "they really did not read tht right"

I think its a pointless debate. There are too many factors involved. Which is why I said cricket is a funny game. When Afridi used to whack every ball and get out for 20 in 12 balls, it was called stupid. Now its called BazBall. I mean ***!

LOL, such is cricket. An inswinging yorker at the death that takes the stump out is brilliant but if the batsman plays a scoop for six, its called "misdirected", or "radar was off" did you ever notice that. The experts are also funny, the commentators more so.

The beauty of cricket is uncertainty, yes there is skill, yes there is other stuff but a lot depends on conditions, what side of the bed the players woke up on, the toss, whether the player got some the night before or had a bad fight with the missus, these all things somehow come into play.

Oh.. let's not forget the umpires either, after that noball Kohli was awarded upon whining. They ALL MATTER!

Going to ignore all the philosophical things in that post. It is pretty much everyone's consensus India delayed the acceleration overs. I say they delayed 15 overs late meaning they should have started attacking from the first over. It was that kind of a surface. yes. India just targeted the par score of 168. 200 plus was there for the taking. India missed out by delaying. I have watched so many India/England encounters over the years. Since Pandemic India has dominated England both in ODI and T20s until this match.

 

[Ab Fan]

India didn't choke against England, they were simply outplayed. You can only choke if you lose after coming close to victory. At no point was India close to victory against England. There wasn't a massive play by England where for example India lost 3 or 4 wickets in the first 2 overs or something, which means that India was allowed to salvage the match and make it competitive but England proved that they are the better team in all three facets of the game in T20s. There is no universe where choking causes a side to lose by 10 wickets.

It's like saying Afghanistan choked against England in the world cup when in reality England is just simply better. England is the best T20 team in the world. They beat India with their B team in a world cup semi-final, if that Isn't a show of dominance then I don't know what is.

The only thing that can stop a full-strength England is a bowling lineup that can force them to their backfoot. Early wickets and constant pressure on the field mixed with aggressive captaincy. India's bowlers went into a shell and started bowling defensive lines after England's openers started their assault, I don't blame them but they should know by now that nowadays a batsman can hit any line or length, so bowling wide outside off or length isn't going to stop them from attacking in fact it will only give the batsman more confidence.

I feel like I've seen the type of performance India gave against England many times from them in recent memory. They've had this type of performance in the World Test Championship, against Pakistan in last year's world cup, in the champions trophy final, against New Zealand in last year's world cup, against England in the deciding test match, and again yesterday against England. The commonality between all these performances is that India's bowling failed them. It's almost as if you can feel their bowling giving up after they don't get a wicket in the first 3 overs.

These bowlers were never going to win India anything because they lack pace and aggression. Bringing back someone like Bumrah won't make a difference because he is from the same mold as the rest of them. In fact, Ashdeep is a much better T20 bowler than Bumrah and India got lucky that Bumrah got injured. Sure Ashdeep lacks aggression and will but unlike Bumrah he has the ability to take wickets at any stage of the innings, so in a sense, Bumrah getting injured was a blessing in disguise for India. India probably wouldn't have made it to the semi-final if Bumrah was playing.

So all in all, if Ind wants to change its fortunes all it has to do is find new bowlers, sounds easy enough for the most "talented" cricket nation in the world. Also, they need to replace Rohit and Rahul before the next T20 world cup, both these guys are past their sell date and they look like they want to be dropped.

Arshdeep's spot was not in question with Bumrah playing or not playing.

It was Shami who was brought instead of Bumrah at the last moment to replace him. Or else, the bowling would have been Bhuvi, Arshdeep and Bumrah.

 

[PakLFC]

It is the Indian media that make their team to be super hero's. Other then Kohli the rest are so average to say the least. The captain is overweight looking disinterested and the bowling as always is mediocre. Dravid seems more interested to staring at his laptop when his bowlers are being slaughtered. When you make average players millionaires in IPL then expect the national team to be full of mediocrity.

 

[Ab Fan]

It is the Indian media that make their team to be super hero's. Other then Kohli the rest are so average to say the least. The captain is overweight looking disinterested and the bowling as always is mediocre. Dravid seems more interested to staring at his laptop when his bowlers are being slaughtered. When you make average players millionaires in IPL then expect the national team to be full of mediocrity.

Yes, the captain doesn't look like an international sportsperson with his fat belly and no athleticism.

 

[PakLFC]

The EPL is the best Football league in the world yet the English national side is so average. It is the same with the Indian Cricket side that despite being the wealthiest board and with the IPL and all their national side is no good.

 

[Muhammad Saad]

It was just a terrific day for England just like Babar and Rizwan had a great day when chasing 200 against England recently, you can't call the other team poor if they are outclassed by other team , it's cricket , these things happened , I would say Indian team are still definitely in the Top 3 worldcricket and if they play against 7 match series they will end up losing 3/4 which is again not bad.

 

[ask_analyse_act]

Dude, your IPL Indian bowlers were not able to take a wicket in 170 runs.
This is not bad luck or a mishap or a bad day.

Also in the 152-0 last year

 

[Suleiman]

Gotta say.. team was on the right track fast bowling wise under Kohli + Shastri.

Shouldn’t have removed Kohli from captaincy if they were just gonna use another guy in his mid 30s.

Should’ve given captaincy to someone younger if they were gonna replace Kohli. Like Pandya.

 

[ask_analyse_act]

India didn't choke against England, they were simply outplayed. You can only choke if you lose after coming close to victory. At no point was India close to victory against England. There wasn't a massive play by England where for example India lost 3 or 4 wickets in the first 2 overs or something, which means that India was allowed to salvage the match and make it competitive but England proved that they are the better team in all three facets of the game in T20s. There is no universe where choking causes a side to lose by 10 wickets.

It's like saying Afghanistan choked against England in the world cup when in reality England is just simply better. England is the best T20 team in the world. They beat India with their B team in a world cup semi-final, if that Isn't a show of dominance then I don't know what is.

The only thing that can stop a full-strength England is a bowling lineup that can force them to their backfoot. Early wickets and constant pressure on the field mixed with aggressive captaincy. India's bowlers went into a shell and started bowling defensive lines after England's openers started their assault, I don't blame them but they should know by now that nowadays a batsman can hit any line or length, so bowling wide outside off or length isn't going to stop them from attacking in fact it will only give the batsman more confidence.

I feel like I've seen the type of performance India gave against England many times from them in recent memory. They've had this type of performance in the World Test Championship, against Pakistan in last year's world cup, in the champions trophy final, against New Zealand in last year's world cup, against England in the deciding test match, and again yesterday against England. The commonality between all these performances is that India's bowling failed them. It's almost as if you can feel their bowling giving up after they don't get a wicket in the first 3 overs.

These bowlers were never going to win India anything because they lack pace and aggression. Bringing back someone like Bumrah won't make a difference because he is from the same mold as the rest of them. In fact, Ashdeep is a much better T20 bowler than Bumrah and India got lucky that Bumrah got injured. Sure Ashdeep lacks aggression and will but unlike Bumrah he has the ability to take wickets at any stage of the innings, so in a sense, Bumrah getting injured was a blessing in disguise for India. India probably wouldn't have made it to the semi-final if Bumrah was playing.

So all in all, if Ind wants to change its fortunes all it has to do is find new bowlers, sounds easy enough for the most "talented" cricket nation in the world. Also, they need to replace Rohit and Rahul before the next T20 world cup, both these guys are past their sell date and they look like they want to be dropped.

Get rid of both Rahuls , the opener and the coach...

Rahul Dravid at the best be batting coach.. He is the reason who was stubborn to keep Rahul playing despite failures and keep Pant out...

Rohit another arrogant old man, should be back home asap.. Kohli being 34 still has the hunger to go for runs..

They should hire someone like McCullum or Gibbs as coach instead of meek Dravid, who carried all the oldies, the avg age of the side is 30+

Sanju Samson who was worried for not getting selected can now have a big laugh at the team lol...

 

[ask_analyse_act]

Gotta say.. team was on the right track fast bowling wise under Kohli + Shastri.

Shouldn’t have removed Kohli from captaincy if they were just gonna use another guy in his mid 30s.

Should’ve given captaincy to someone younger if they were gonna replace Kohli. Like Pandya.

Exactly after Kohli was gone as all format captain, every single series have a new captain...

They had Rohit, Dhawan, Pandya, Pant , KL Rahul, Bumrah as captains across all formats. Thats is like 6 captains in 1 year, should be a new record.

 

[happydavy]

Get rid of both Rahuls , the opener and the coach...

Rahul Dravid at the best be batting coach.. He is the reason who was stubborn to keep Rahul playing despite failures and keep Pant out...

Rohit another arrogant old man, should be back home asap.. Kohli being 34 still has the hunger to go for runs..

They should hire someone like McCullum or Gibbs as coach instead of meek Dravid, who carried all the oldies, the avg age of the side is 30+

Sanju Samson who was worried for not getting selected can now have a big laugh at the team lol...

Not just playing Rahul and keeping Pant out, he persisted with Ashwin and Axar in some strange make-believe combination, that playing 2 ordinary spinners and 2 ordinary tailenders will combine to make one 1 full allrounder. I posted many times on this forum that Ashwin has taken 30 odd wickets combined in last 3 IPLs from 45 matches. How much worse does one have to perform in domestic cricket to be not considered for international cricket? The guy played the last world cup and this one, and forget taking wickets he doesn't even bother the opposition players.

 

[Hextro]

Arshdeep's spot was not in question with Bumrah playing or not playing.

It was Shami who was brought instead of Bumrah at the last moment to replace him. Or else, the bowling would have been Bhuvi, Arshdeep and Bumrah.

Arshdeep replaced Bumrah in the Asia Cup squad which was announced before the World Cup squad. Arshdeep was brought in to fill Bumrah's role.

 

[Ab Fan]

Arshdeep replaced Bumrah in the Asia Cup squad which was announced before the World Cup squad. Arshdeep was brought in to fill Bumrah's role.

Nope. It was Shami who replaced Bumrah in World Cup at the last moment due to lack of experience noted in the bowling attack. In Asia Cup, it was Avesh who replaced Bumrah.

Arshdeep debuted in England T20 series already and then played 5 T20 match series vs Windies where he was awarded the player of series. Asia Cup came after that.

http://www.howstat.com/cricket/statistics/Series/SeriesStats_T20.asp?SeriesCode=0416

 

[Hextro]

Nope. It was Shami who replaced Bumrah in World Cup at the last moment due to lack of experience noted in the bowling attack. In Asia Cup, it was Avesh who replaced Bumrah.

Arshdeep debuted in England T20 series already and then played 5 T20 match series vs Windies where he was awarded the player of series. Asia Cup came after that.

http://www.howstat.com/cricket/statistics/Series/SeriesStats_T20.asp?SeriesCode=0416

Avesh only played the first 2 matches in the Asia Cup and he was replaced by spinners in the remaining matches. Unless you believe that Bumrah fulfills the role of a spinner and would be replaced by one after 2 matches, Arshdeep is the one that replaced him. Never mind the fact that Arshdeep bowls at the same stage of the innings as Bumrah. The only difference might be that Arsh bowls two overs in the powerplay whereas Bumrah normally only bowls one.

 

[CrIc_Mystique]

India beat Aus in Aus in T20 and test series last time and the odi series was a close 2-1. On previous tour won odi series there as well.

Won odi and t20 series in other SENA countries as well.

Surreal that regular posters on the forum are going into so many theories lol.

It’s a tournament and you have to get the job done but just FYI defending champs Aus are out, Pak all credit to them for making it but would have been eliminated if not for a freak win by Ned and lost to Zim. The other finalist England lost to Ireland.

Yes the loss hurts but there is no rocket science here. T20 is a lottery format and the wc makes it even more lottery. Good teams have marginal difference to pick among themselves so some teams lose out.

There isn’t anything else more than that.

Fantastic analysis! however fact also is we missed jazzboom and jads. Ravi bish noi and samson shoud've been there.
We shall regroup and get back on the horse soon !

 

[Ab Fan]

Avesh only played the first 2 matches in the Asia Cup and he was replaced by spinners in the remaining matches. Unless you believe that Bumrah fulfills the role of a spinner and would be replaced by one after 2 matches, Arshdeep is the one that replaced him. Never mind the fact that Arshdeep bowls at the same stage of the innings as Bumrah. The only difference might be that Arsh bowls two overs in the powerplay whereas Bumrah normally only bowls one.

Avesh was replaced by spinner because the UAE conditions forced them to go with extra spin option and Avesh was not performing well with bowl too.

That has got nothing to do with Bumrah. Had Bumrah been fit, the World T20 bowling attack would have been Bhuvi, Arshdeep and Bumrah. Arshdeep already had merit his spot by player of series award vs Windies and then good performance following that.

The fact that you are debating inspite of giving evidences to you tells us that you are basically showing your low IQ mentality which to be honest is expected from the nationality you belong to.