Mohammad Shami, Jasprit Bumrah, Ishant Sharma and Bhuvneshwar Kumar vs Pakistan seamers in Tests

[jnaveen1980]

Is that why in Australia his return was 1-168?

If i cherry pick i can pick hole in every goddamn bowler ever played.

 

[babajee]

If i cherry pick i can pick hole in every goddamn bowler ever played.

The point is - he’s been lucky to play on the pitches he has played on which has given him ATG stats.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Bhuvi has come a long way. He is not the same bowler we saw him couple of years back. He has added pace , more guile to his bowling. He is still not at the level of Zaheer's peak. But he is getting there slowly.

 

[jnaveen1980]

The point is - he’s been lucky to play on the pitches he has played on which has given him ATG stats.

Anywhere he fails is not a helpful pitch. Anywhere he gets wickets is a helpful pitch. If that is how we are going to judge him conclusion will be awfully wrong. Because it is not the fact .

 

[Sam99]

Anywhere he fails is not a helpful pitch. Anywhere he gets wickets is a helpful pitch. If that is how we are going to judge him conclusion will be awfully wrong. Because it is not the fact .

Read my recent post on last page i explained every tour in detail (of new bhuvi which has changed for pace, seam & swing)

 

[jnaveen1980]

Read my recent post on last page i explained every tour in detail (of new bhuvi which has changed for pace, seam & swing)

You have just put out bunch of scorecard where Bhuvi got wickets. They don't automatically mean they are helpful. It is not his problem he was dropped from 2nd test. It was a dumb decision by Kohli. You cannot say he would not have taken wickets there.

 

[Sam99]

You have just put out bunch of scorecard where Bhuvi got wickets. They don't automatically mean they are helpful. It is not his problem he was dropped from 2nd test. It was a dumb decision by Kohli. You cannot say he would not have taken wickets there.

Well everything i have told is what i have seen and i can prove it. You will say ah he got 1 wicket but pitch was still helpful and ah he got 5 fer and pitch was not that helpful. I have seen all pitch reports, Each session by session and when bhuvi picked wicket and how he got them. Fact is he is Condition Bowler or a New ball bowler on flat roads.

 

[Sam99]

You have just put out bunch of scorecard where Bhuvi got wickets. They don't automatically mean they are helpful. It is not his problem he was dropped from 2nd test. It was a dumb decision by Kohli. You cannot say he would not have taken wickets there.

And it's just a joke that he can bowl 145kph in test cricket. Go and watch all replays and you will find out that his avg pace is around 132kph and his odd ball might have reached 145kph which your TV Providers shows to you in loop just pitching bowl on different spots.

 

[jnaveen1980]

And it's just a joke that he can bowl 145kph in test cricket. Go and watch all replays and you will find out that his avg pace is around 132kph and his odd ball might have reached 145kph which your TV Providers shows to you in loop just pitching bowl on different spots.

But during 2nd & 3rd test he had to skip the tour due to his personal reason (marriage) and as we all know both tracks were pretty batting friendly track and i have no doubt bhuvi would have been dropped for those matches.

Arbitrary comments like this what makes me question your logic. You blindly says he would have failed in all the tests he missed out. How do you know?

 

[Sam99]

But during 2nd & 3rd test he had to skip the tour due to his personal reason (marriage) and as we all know both tracks were pretty batting friendly track and i have no doubt bhuvi would have been dropped for those matches.

Arbitrary comments like this what makes me question your logic. You blindly says he would have failed in all the tests he missed out. How do you know?

He has played some random matches (as force change) and didn't look threatening as he is on flat roads.Be that Aus tour or Match vs England after shami's injury or bangladesh or australia.

If he is getting dropped by team management & selectors & even captain that means even they doubt on his ability on batting pitches.

 

[jnaveen1980]

He has played some random matches (as force change) and didn't look threatening as he is on flat roads.Be that Aus tour or Match vs England after shami's injury or bangladesh or australia.

If he is getting dropped by team management & selectors & even captain that means even they doubt on his ability on batting pitches.

Aw If you are going to judge player based on Kohli's brain freezes then Rohit is a freaking legendary batsman in SA conditions compared to Rahane. By the end of the third test if was consensus even among SA commies it was preposterous to leave Kumar out. Indian pitches cannot both be Ashwin friendly and Bhuvsneswar friendly. Pick one or the other.

 

[Sam99]

Aw If you are going to judge player based on Kohli's brain freezes then Rohit is a freaking legendary batsman in SA conditions compared to Rahane. By the end of the third test if was consensus even among SA commies it was preposterous to leave Kumar out. Indian pitches cannot both be Ashwin friendly and Bhuvsneswar friendly. Pick one or the other.

Why are you considering just this one series? He gets dropped every time he has no help from pitch. It's just like playing ashwin only on indian pitches and bragging him for being better than warne & murli (cause stats say so!).

 

[jnaveen1980]

Why are you considering just this one series? He gets dropped every time he has no help from pitch. It's just like playing ashwin only on indian pitches and bragging him for being better than warne & murli (cause stats say so!).

Not true. You suggest as if Kohli and Co are some masterful tacticians. They are anything but that. His dropping of pujara, KL Rahul, Shami, Umesh, Bhvui everything is arbitrary.

 

[cricketjoshila]

People still saying Amir is as good as or better than Shami?

 

[Sam99]

Not true. You suggest as if Kohli and Co are some masterful tacticians. They are anything but that. His dropping of pujara, KL Rahul, Shami, Umesh, Bhvui everything is arbitrary.

Well they are watching him from closer than we ever can. Pujara & Rahul were dropped for one or two matches. Bhuvi keeps getting dropped when he has no help and umesh plays for him. When pitch has help umesh or ishant sits out and bhuvi comes back and he really impress us all!

All my point is we can't consider comparing bhuvi with any bowler because he has bowled mostly in suitable conditions. You can compare Shami, Umesh, Ishant with Pak bowlers. Yes they are not effective as bhuvi on green pitches but they are surely alot better in every conditions. Bhuvi as package > Shami or Bumrah or Ishant or Umesh. As a bowler his stats doesn't tell everything. Bhuvi is basically our overseas Ashwin.

 

[Suleiman]

1) Amir = Shami.
2) Hasan > Bumrah
3) Riaz > Ishant
4) Junaid = Kumar (primarily because Khan hasn't played tests in a while).

of course

 

[barah_admi]

BHaijaan, go check Amir's speeds in tests. Even in ODI's he struggles to bowl quick. And skills above Shami? Which world are you living in? Plz go check Amir's avg and Shami's and go and check Shami's stats for the last 2 yrs and Amir's and then figure out yourself who is better. If you have some analytical skills, ie. If not, you are excused!

What are you talking about? First you lied that Amir couldnt hit 135, yet he has just shown he can hit 140-147 multiple times. Then you tried to accuse me of lying and didnt even read my post, now you're saying he didn't hit those speeds. I will be forced to put you on ignore if you lie a 4th time.

 

[New Yorker]

Shami >> amir (only delusional fans can deny that)
Bhuvi >> junaid
Bumrah = hasan
Ishant > riaz

Don't disagree with your argument, generally speaking, but the Pakistan pace attack, in its last incarnation, was amir, abbas, and hasan. junaid is not first choice, nor thankfully, is riaz.

amir i think it is clear, is not better than bhuvi or shami or even bumrah. hasan has more upside, and is younger. i don't know where to place him yet, but i think bumrah will be a better test pacer in the long run.

which leaves us with abbas. now, some curious stats

abbas averages 21 in 5 Tests, on very flat wickets; 21 also happens to be his FC average

shami averages 28 Tests, and 27 in FC,

bhuvi 26 in Tests and 26 in FC.

bumrah averages 25 in Tests and 25 in FC

i won't get into ishant, because however useful he may be, his stats are awful

bhuvi does not have a single 10 fer in 70 something FC games; this to me is telling. another bowler like that was rahat ali

shami has 2 10 fers in 50 something games.

abbas has 7 10 fers in some 70 FC games.

my prediction is that abbas will soon be recognized as the best test pacer from this entire bunch, with bumrah and hasan providing the main competition...

 

[Rightarmfast]

What are you talking about? First you lied that Amir couldnt hit 135, yet he has just shown he can hit 140-147 multiple times. Then you tried to accuse me of lying and didnt even read my post, now you're saying he didn't hit those speeds. I will be forced to put you on ignore if you lie a 4th time.

Are you so daft or just plain liar? Where has he hit 140+ in tests in the last 2 yrs? You may put me in ignore list because you just talk out of your hat and I am catching you each time and you are left with no answer because you are a liar!

 

[Abdullah719]

Are you so daft or just plain liar? Where has he hit 140+ in tests in the last 2 yrs? You may put me in ignore list because you just talk out of your hat and I am catching you each time and you are left with no answer because you are a liar!

Literally in almost every Test he's played.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...ss=1;template=results;type=bowling;view=match

Feel free to check speeds on Hawkeye. 87 MPH = 140 KPH

Here are some samples from Tests vs England and West Indies:

 

[Buffet]

Amir's average speed I can find in Cricinfo

2017 against SL in 1st inning 1st test - 130 KPH
2017 against SL in 2nd inning 1st test - 133 KPH

2017 against WI in WI in 3rd test , 2nd inning - 133 KPH
2017 against WI in WI in 3rd test , 1st inning - 131 KPH

2017 against WI in WI in 2nd test , 2nd inning - 131 KPH
2017 against WI in WI in 2nd test , 1st inning - 133 KPH

2017 against WI in WI in 1st test , 2nd inning - 133 KPH
2017 against WI in WI in 1st test , 1st inning - 133 KPH

2016 in Eng 4th test first inning - 135 KPH
2016 in Eng 4th test second inng - 134 KPH

2016 in Eng 3rd test first inning - 137 KPH
2016 in Eng 3rd test second inng - 134 KPH

2016 in Eng 2nd test first inning - not showing up
2016 in Eng 2nd test second inng - 132 KPH

2016 in Eng 1st test first inning - 136 KPH
2016 in Eng 1st test second inng - 137 KPH

I didn't bother to list WI series in UAE because it's also in 130-134 KPH range and no one bowls too fast in UAE anyway. Series in Aus and NZ doesn't have the data.

 

[Rightarmfast]

Literally in almost every Test he's played.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...ss=1;template=results;type=bowling;view=match

Feel free to check speeds on Hawkeye. 87 MPH = 140 KPH

Here are some samples from Tests vs England and West Indies:

View attachment 78547

View attachment 78548

View attachment 78549

View attachment 78550

View attachment 78551

View attachment 78552

View attachment 78553

Please check the conversation I was having. The stats you have given dates back 2 yrs ago. Please check recent speeds! I believe [MENTION=97523]Buffet[/MENTION] has provided the recent speeds of Amir.

 

[Buffet]

I don't know about you guys, but an average speed of 135 in test match is pretty good.

Only genuine fast bowlers maintain 140+ avg speed in test match and some time even they drop pace. But only genuine pace bowlers have stamina to maintain 140+ avg speed.

 

[Buffet]

Please check the conversation I was having. The stats you have given dates back 2 yrs ago. Please check recent speeds! I believe [MENTION=97523]Buffet[/MENTION] has provided the recent speeds of Amir.

I listed average speed and I think you guys are talking about the highest speed which could be one ball here and there. Two totally different thing.

 

[Abdullah719]

Please check the conversation I was having. The stats you have given dates back 2 yrs ago. Please check recent speeds! I believe [MENTION=97523]Buffet[/MENTION] has provided the recent speeds of Amir.

This is what you wrote:

Where has he hit 140+ in tests in the last 2 yrs?

Hit 140+ means top speed, not average speed which is what [MENTION=97523]Buffet[/MENTION] is referring to. He's bowled plenty of deliveries above 140 KPH though not very consistently. I think his pace was also good on the tour of Australia though the speeds aren't available via Hawkeye.

Last 2 years = Since Feb 1st, 2016. Unless 2 years means something else.

Tests against England = Jul/Aug 2016
Tests against WI = Oct 2016 and Apr/May 2017

 

[leatherface58]

I don't know about you guys, but an average speed of 135 in test match is pretty good.

Only genuine fast bowlers maintain 140+ avg speed in test match and some time even they drop pace. But only genuine pace bowlers have stamina to maintain 140+ avg speed.

No man he has to bowl over 150 for true pace like Akhtar. Never mind the fact that Akhtar regularly broke down, had discipline issues and finished his career underachieving to a large extent but hey he had pace so who cares about results?

 

[OmaIR1]

India > Pakistan in all departments.

 

[Rightarmfast]

What are you talking about? First you lied that Amir couldnt hit 135, yet he has just shown he can hit 140-147 multiple times. Then you tried to accuse me of lying and didnt even read my post, now you're saying he didn't hit those speeds. I will be forced to put you on ignore if you lie a 4th time.

Are you really so daft? Has he hit those speeds last year? Or do you live in the past?

 

[Abdullah719]

Are you really so daft? Has he hit those speeds last year? Or do you live in the past?

Versus West Indies, April/May 2017.

 

[barah_admi]

Versus West Indies, April/May 2017.

View attachment 78561

View attachment 78562

So I was right, his peak was 89mph, which is something achieved before (in England 2016) and has achieved again in NZ (147 is 89 right?)

Anyway, like I said, I don't lie

Thanks for the proof

 

[Abdullah719]

So I was right, his peak was 89mph, which is something achieved before (in England 2016) and has achieved again in NZ (147 is 89 right?)

Anyway, like I said, I don't lie

Thanks for the proof

147 is 91.3 mph.

He usually does bowl faster in the shorter-formats but he also bowls at good pace at times in Tests. I remember him clocking 140+ many times in Australia and he bowled pretty well in the first Test there.

 

[rudra]

Indian pacers much ahead of pakistani counterparts now. Gap is gonna further in future

 

[giri26]

Amir is a strange case. His pace increase/decreases depending on the match situation. If Pakistan put up good totals, he does extremely well, his pace is up and he looks threatening. But when Pakistan bowl first or are defending a low total, he looks lost, his pace is down and bowls defensive lines. You should be able to give 100% every time you bowl for the country, no matter what the situation is. This is one of the reasons I don't rate Amir.

 

[wrongun]

I'd have to put India's pace attack ahead right now.
Buvhi is a very skilled operator in suitable conditions (which he will find in SA, NZ, Eng & even occasionally in Oz) & given that he operates on skill & intelligence & hasn't fallen away but slowly improved himself I wouldn't write him off as an all surface bowler or even bowling allrounder just yet.

Shami was consistently good for a couple of years. A reliable seamer who is a real threat when in rhythm.

Bumrah surprised me. His action seems limiting at test level, but he exploited the kind of conditions he might find on 4th/5th days anywhere quite well. I also initially though Ntini's wide angle & release would hold him back too so Bumrah might surprise me too.

Poor old Ishant is a steady stock bowler these days but frustrates because with the wild hair, the height, the inswing & (at least in early days) the pace; we all thought he could be a genuine strike bowler.

For Pakistan; Amir has been disappointing in Tests; Hasan hasn't yet been as effective in this format; Abbas is promising, nothing more and everyone else I've seen might as well not turn up. Junaid never seems to play, if I was Pakistan I'd start blooding those u19 bowlers. If you are good enough, you are old enough.

 

[barah_admi]

147 is 91.3 mph.

He usually does bowl faster in the shorter-formats but he also bowls at good pace at times in Tests. I remember him clocking 140+ many times in Australia and he bowled pretty well in the first Test there.

Exactly. I think that is the way with most fast bowlers, they can clock faster speeds in the shorter formats but Amir is no slouch in tests either. I've seen him hit 88mph in 2nd spells in the UAE, so he has good fitness too.

 

[AssassinatedDevil]

Amir is a strange case. His pace increase/decreases depending on the match situation. If Pakistan put up good totals, he does extremely well, his pace is up and he looks threatening. But when Pakistan bowl first or are defending a low total, he looks lost, his pace is down and bowls defensive lines. You should be able to give 100% every time you bowl for the country, no matter what the situation is. This is one of the reasons I don't rate Amir.

I feel he has an elitist attitude due to this exact same reason. He only steps up when the stakes are insanely high and there is something special about the occasion. Elitist might not be the right word but he needs to learn to put his 100 % in every game. He's occupying 1 bowling spot unnecessarily otherwise.

 

[Bilal7]

Ishant > Riaz
Kumar > Junaid
Shami > Amir (as of right now)

Ishant is not better than Riaz. The guy is a laughing stock and despite having played a large number of tests still hasn't learned how to lead an attack. Riaz may be inaccurate in the shorter formats but he's quality in tests with his pace and reverse-swing. He played a crucial role in winning us the home test series against England recently. However, if you're solely going by current form then yes, Shami and Kumar can be considered better than Amir and Junaid. The former is still transitioning back into international cricket and Junaid hasn't been given a chance to play test cricket in some time.

 

[Bilal7]

Amir is a strange case. His pace increase/decreases depending on the match situation. If Pakistan put up good totals, he does extremely well, his pace is up and he looks threatening. But when Pakistan bowl first or are defending a low total, he looks lost, his pace is down and bowls defensive lines. You should be able to give 100% every time you bowl for the country, no matter what the situation is. This is one of the reasons I don't rate Amir.

Well, it makes perfect sense if you think about it. When he has runs to play with, he can go full tilt and thus look more motivated. However, if the batsmen have failed, he has to bowl defensively and cut down on his pace which can be demotivating for a fast, aggressive bowler like him.

 

[AssassinatedDevil]

Well, it makes perfect sense if you think about it. When he has runs to play with, he can go full tilt and thus look more motivated. However, if the batsmen have failed, he has to bowl defensively and cut down on his pace which can be demotivating for a fast, aggressive bowler like him.

That makes sense but more is expected from him. He has been able to take quick wickets and show his class in the past when not many runs were put up by the batsmen, so hopefully he starts replicating it more often.