"MS Dhoni is still a very integral part of this (ODI) team" : Virat Kohli

[MP2011]

Yeah.

All this rubbish of not blooding a new WK at 11th hour is part of cunning plan hatched by team management under the aegis of Dhoni.

If Dhoni had best interests of Indian cricket at his heart, he'd have made way for someone else just like Tendulkar did who hardly played any ODIs after WC'11 and retired at least 2 years ahead of WC '15, something which Dhoni is totally incapable of.

 

[Balthazar]

If I have to rank T20 teams,

1. India / England
2. England / India
3. Pakistan / SA
4. SA / Pakistan
5. NZ / Aus / WI
6. Aus / WI / NZ
7. WI / NZ / Aus

There's not much gap between these teams. Anyone can win depending on where they are playing. But India can definitely beat Pakistan in UAE as they are simply a better team on slow wickets.

 

[RyanRyan10]

I think the problem for dhoni is that average is going down

His strike rate is more worrying than the average

He kills the momentum with his slow batting

 

[RyanRyan10]

Nobody said Pant will fail in tests. Some said that he will struggle against the moving ball and they were right. That century in the last test was an excellent innings. But let's not forget that it was preceded by 5 innings where he scored only 48 runs.

I have no doubt about Pant's batting talent. He has all the shots a batsman can want and he can hit sixes at will. That's a sure shot recipe for success for a modern day batsman. But I do have my doubts over his game. He is a one-gear player. And I don't see him filling in the role that Dhoni can. If Pant was a part-time bowler instead of a keeper, I would have him in my XI over Kedar in a heartbeat. Because he can play that role and his game is naturally suited to it. But what he can't do is take the game deep when the team is 5 down for 160. He can do that once in a while he plays that freak innings with a 150+ SR. But he can't do it often enough. Not at this point. Not for such a critical event like the WC.

-> says Pant should not be in the XI in place of Dhoni because he hasn't got a good record in List A cricket
-> wants to include Pant (if he was a part timer)in place of Jadhav who has done much better than Dhoni as a batsman in recent times

 

[WengerOut]

-> says Pant should not be in the XI in place of Dhoni because he hasn't got a good record in List A cricket
-> wants to include Pant (if he was a part timer)in place of Jadhav who has done much better than Dhoni as a batsman in recent times

Wait, there are more

1. Dhoni outshined Pant in 2 matches where they played together

2. He admitted Dhoni is no more a finisher, then later he said Dhoni can still hit sixes at will.

3. He admitted Pant is better in T20s and later said Dhoni had more impact in last IPL. Pant was mediocre as he couldn't help DD. Maybe Pant dint bowl and took wickets.



There are many and he is going in circles.

 

[the_outsider]

Wait, there are more

1. Dhoni outshined Pant in 2 matches where they played together

2. He admitted Dhoni is no more a finisher, then later he said Dhoni can still hit sixes at will.

3. He admitted Pant is better in T20s and later said Dhoni had more impact in last IPL. Pant was mediocre as he couldn't help DD. Maybe Pant dint bowl and took wickets.



There are many and he is going in circles.

You need to sort your understanding out.

1. You're the one who is using the insane logic of comparing Dhoni's and Pant's 2 innings when they played together. Which is absolutely ridiculous considering Dhoni has played 300 matches.

2. I said Dhoni is no more the finisher he was . Doesn't mean that he isn't a finisher anymore.

3. Pant is definitely a better T20 player at this point than Dhoni. But that doesn't change the fact that he failed to win his team as many matches as Dhoni did in IPL 2018.

For example, would you say Kohli is a better T20 player than Dhoni? Yes, right? But then look back and see how many matches Kohli won for RCB last season and look at how many times he has managed to take his team to the final. Kohli and Pant are currently both better T20 batsmen than Dhoni. But Dhoni has still outperformed them in IPL 2018. If you can't understand the distinction there, I can't help you.

 

[the_outsider]

-> says Pant should not be in the XI in place of Dhoni because he hasn't got a good record in List A cricket
-> wants to include Pant (if he was a part timer)in place of Jadhav who has done much better than Dhoni as a batsman in recent times

Because Pant can do what Kedar is doing. And he might do it at an even better SR. But he can't perform the role that Dhoni has been given - that of an anchor if the top order fails. Because he hasn't developed his game that way yet. Pant plays in pretty much 1 gear. If you had followed him in domestics, you would have known that too.

 

[the_outsider]

??? Millenials are 30 years old on average. The older millenials are 36-37. You must be thinking of Gen Z. I am pretty sure you're a millenial yourself.

Yes. My bad. Gen Z. Thanks.

 

[the_outsider]

If logic can't win you, then throw tantrums and question people about their age or whether or not they treated Sachin as God. Neither of which has any remote relevance to the discussion in hand. It's hard to argue with conformists who don't have mind of their own but are conditioned by what media tells them.

You must be joking.

All media houses are pouncing on Dhoni and asking for his retirement. Many fans, such as yourself are clamouring for his head.

If I were impressionable, I would be in your camp - asking for Dhoni to retire.

But I know that Dhoni wouldn't be playing the WC unless he genuinely felt that he can contribute to a WC win. I have seen that man do some truly UNBELIEVABLE things on the cricket field. So if he has faith in himself, I have faith in him too. Because he has earned it.

You can think whatever you want. My opinion isn't changing. And neither is the team's. So good luck to you on your noble quest on deciding when a legend should retire.

 

[the_outsider]

Don't you know KL Rahul > Kohli > Sachin?

You just know that so many of these "fans" are just products of the IPL. It's that typical T20 mindset. "Perform today or retire tomorrow.".

Thank God their bosses at work aren't allowed to think this way. Otherwise most of them would be sitting at home in the middle of a weekday right now.

 

[Ab Fan]

I am sorry to say but Dhoni is no more a finisher at all today, let alone being not a finisher he was at his peak.

If he comes to bat at 210-3 after 35 overs, he will take away the life from the platform laid by top order and India will end under 320.

If he comes to bat when his team needs quick runs and chase totals in second innings, he can't do that as well. This is something he was great at in past as he knew how to control the game and when its time to accelerate but now he is past his peak and he doesn't have in him to do that.

His IPL performance in 2018 was a fluke as it can be visible by his performance in international game after that and although it will be great if he can fluke it again in World Cup 2019 but chances of fluking a WC is very minimal as compared to other ICC tournaments.

At 6, Pant is currently a better option than Dhoni at batting except that when India are 40-4 and then Dhoni can come in and play his usual 70 ball 40 in supporting role if someone else plays a better inning and that would help India reach a decent score but in such situations, Pant might get out cheaply, leading to more problems for the other batsmen who is there on the other end.

<B>Overall, to conclude my point, Dhoni should have left the scenes and retire in 2017 only or even before, allowing India to try some new wicketkeepers who would have developed before World Cup and would be ready to take a more broader role in 2019 WC. Now that it is not going to happen, play Dhoni at 5 in World Cup and just hope he flukes a couple of big matches when mattered, something which he was excellent at in his peak days and also doesn't cost India any match by scoring a 35 ball 30 when India are 220/3 after 35 overs in first inning</B>

 

[the_outsider]

I am sorry to say but Dhoni is no more a finisher at all today, let alone being not a finisher he was at his peak.

If he comes to bat at 210-3 after 35 overs, he will take away the life from the platform laid by top order and India will end under 320.

If he comes to bat when his team needs quick runs and chase totals in second innings, he can't do that as well. This is something he was great at in past as he knew how to control the game and when its time to accelerate but now he is past his peak and he doesn't have in him to do that.

His IPL performance in 2018 was a fluke as it can be visible by his performance in international game after that and although it will be great if he can fluke it again in World Cup 2019 but chances of fluking a WC is very minimal as compared to other ICC tournaments.

At 6, Pant is currently a better option than Dhoni at batting except that when India are 40-4 and then Dhoni can come in and play his usual 70 ball 40 in supporting role if someone else plays a better inning and that would help India reach a decent score but in such situations, Pant might get out cheaply, leading to more problems for the other batsmen who is there on the other end.

<B>Overall, to conclude my point, Dhoni should have left the scenes and retire in 2017 only or even before, allowing India to try some new wicketkeepers who would have developed before World Cup and would be ready to take a more broader role in 2019 WC. Now that it is not going to happen, play Dhoni at 5 in World Cup and just hope he flukes a couple of big matches when mattered, something which he was excellent at in his peak days and also doesn't cost India any match by scoring a 35 ball 30 when India are 220/3 after 35 overs in first inning</B>

I agree with you on the fact that the team management didn't leave enough chances for Pant to develop his game for a couple of years. They made the same mistake with the backup pacers too. That's a genuine mistake they made.

But I disagree with you that Dhoni is no more a finisher. In the twilight of one's career, there are bound to be a few rough patches here and there. When Dhoni wasn't performing well in 2016, every one was saying the same thing - "Dhoni is not a finisher he is just finished" and "Time for Dhoni to retire."

Then in 2017:

1. Scored 65 when the team was bowled out for 112 by SL. When nobody above him managed to even get to double figures. We lost that match anyway but without Dhoni we would have been bundled out under 50 by SL.

2. Then in the T20s in that tour, he scored 83 runs at a SR of 157. But of course "Dhoni can't bat at 100+ SR anymore"

3. Then, against Australia he scored 79 at a SR of 90 when the team was tottering at 80 for 5 down. Got the team total up to 281.

4. In the SL tour he saved the team from a humiliating defeat when the team was 130/7 chasing 230. Scored a steady 45 and saw the team through. (Pant can score a 10 ball 25 but can he score a 65 ball 45 and see the team home from 130/7? I haven't seen anything of that sort so far.)

5. In the very next match, after scoring 45 at a 65 SR, he went on to score 67 with a SR of 79. And once again, he stayed till the end and saw the team through.

6. Again in the very next match, he scored 49* at a 120 SR to help India put up 375. But of course "Dhoni is no longer a finisher."

7. In CT17, apart from the final, Dhoni got to bat once and he made 63 runs at a SR of 122

8. In WI, he scored a run-a-ball 78* to help put up 250+ score when the team was 100/3 with Dhawan, Kohli and Yuvi all back in the hut.

9. But of course, people will only remember the next match where his 54 of 114 wasn't enough to see the team through.


They will pick out this innings and that innings in the 2nd ODI in England and say "Dhoni can no longer hit. He can only strike at 65 now."

Dhoni ended 2017 with almost 800 runs at an avg of 60 and SR of 88. But he is "no longer a finisher."

Let's also look at the 2018 SA tour where he scored:

42* of 43 balls
52* of 28 balls

And maintained a SR of 160 in the T20s - the highest for any Indian in that series.



Dhoni's 2018 hasn't been good. That's quite obvious. At 37, you will find yourself in the middle of a rough patch once in a while. I heard the same things in 2016 - an almost believed it. Then in 2017 and 2018 (up to the IPL) he showed me how wrong I was in buying into this toxic, uneducated, nonsense created by the "fans" and media.

 

[Ab Fan]

I agree with you on the fact that the team management didn't leave enough chances for Pant to develop his game for a couple of years. They made the same mistake with the backup pacers too. That's a genuine mistake they made.

But I disagree with you that Dhoni is no more a finisher. In the twilight of one's career, there are bound to be a few rough patches here and there. When Dhoni wasn't performing well in 2016, every one was saying the same thing - "Dhoni is not a finisher he is just finished" and "Time for Dhoni to retire."

Then in 2017:

1. Scored 65 when the team was bowled out for 112 by SL. When nobody above him managed to even get to double figures. We lost that match anyway but without Dhoni we would have been bundled out under 50 by SL.

2. Then in the T20s in that tour, he scored 83 runs at a SR of 157. But of course "Dhoni can't bat at 100+ SR anymore"

3. Then, against Australia he scored 79 at a SR of 90 when the team was tottering at 80 for 5 down. Got the team total up to 281.

4. In the SL tour he saved the team from a humiliating defeat when the team was 130/7 chasing 230. Scored a steady 45 and saw the team through. (Pant can score a 10 ball 25 but can he score a 65 ball 45 and see the team home from 130/7? I haven't seen anything of that sort so far.)

5. In the very next match, after scoring 45 at a 65 SR, he went on to score 67 with a SR of 79. And once again, he stayed till the end and saw the team through.

6. Again in the very next match, he scored 49* at a 120 SR to help India put up 375. But of course "Dhoni is no longer a finisher."

7. In CT17, apart from the final, Dhoni got to bat once and he made 63 runs at a SR of 122

8. In WI, he scored a run-a-ball 78* to help put up 250+ score when the team was 100/3 with Dhawan, Kohli and Yuvi all back in the hut.

9. But of course, people will only remember the next match where his 54 of 114 wasn't enough to see the team through.


They will pick out this innings and that innings in the 2nd ODI in England and say "Dhoni can no longer hit. He can only strike at 65 now."

Dhoni ended 2017 with almost 800 runs at an avg of 60 and SR of 88. But he is "no longer a finisher."

Let's also look at the 2018 SA tour where he scored:

42* of 43 balls
52* of 28 balls

And maintained a SR of 160 in the T20s - the highest for any Indian in that series.



Dhoni's 2018 hasn't been good. That's quite obvious. At 37, you will find yourself in the middle of a rough patch once in a while. I heard the same things in 2016 - an almost believed it. Then in 2017 and 2018 (up to the IPL) he showed me how wrong I was in buying into this toxic, uneducated, nonsense created by the "fans" and media.

I am surprised after watching Dhoni play match-losing knocks one after another, you are here debating if Dhoni is still a good finisher?? The answer is no, he is not even a good finisher. Let me come to all your innings: -

1) A good inning, saving team from embarrassment but in terms of context of the game, it was mostly hopeless zero pressure runs which opposition won't care at all.

2) Didn't remember the T20 match.

3) As I said in my post, he is good in playing supporting role when team is reeling at 50-4 and someone else is playing a better and more aggressive knock. Pandya was the one who made sure Dhoni could tuk-tuk and take his time from one end. He scored more runs than Dhoni and at better SR.

4) Pant has played 2 ODIs in his career. We can't expect him to debut with an audacious awe-inspiring 148* in first odi and follow it with a high pressure 83*(116) guiding his team to victory in a difficult run-chase. This is why I said he should have been there in the XI two years ago and given time to develop himself. You become a star after you play some games for the team, you don't become a star and then debut in the international cricket.

5) 49* at SR of 120,lol, taking his team to 375,even more lol. So, that means in a situation where he should have hit at 200 SR, he hits a 49* off 42 balls. Surely would have got a couple of big hits in final over to make stats look good against a legendary SL side.

6) Another support knock, platform laid, didn't even batted that aggressive.

As much as you say, fact is amidst several of his match-losing knocks, he plays a couple of good knocks(not even great) against Sl and WI in suporting role when the platform was laid, explains us the mediocrity he has possessed in last 1-1.5 years and btw before that, he had a good 1 year but he has been done as a batsmen way back since 2015 only. He averages 45 in 2015 and 27 in 2016 which you seem to ignore and averages don't explain how mediocre he has been over last 4 years.

 

[Ab Fan]

Missed no. 5 and referred no. 6 and 7 as no. 5 and 6 by fault. Coming to no.5, again, it took him Bhuvi on other end to play a more aggressive knock and change the game at a higher SR and he scored more runs than MS as well .

Clearly as I said, he is good in controlling the game in supporting role when his team is reeling and there is no scoreboard pressure and someone else is playing a better knock from other end. This is a job which Rayudu or even Rahane could do. So, Dhoni's batting is mostly insignificant and it is only his wicket-keeping and his experience that will count in the WC but I believe if Indian management were more cautious and Dhoni was less selfish, the whole planning and setup should have been done after 2015 WC only.

However, it was a harder thing as Dhoni is a big name and as long as he doesn't want, team management or captain can't do anything for that. So, at the end, India had to accept MSD at 5 and make changes according to that, which is what they are doing and it is to be seen if these biasedness will cost India in WC or not.

 

[the_outsider]

I am surprised after watching Dhoni play match-losing knocks one after another, you are here debating if Dhoni is still a good finisher?? The answer is no, he is not even a good finisher. Let me come to all your innings: -

1) A good inning, saving team from embarrassment but in terms of context of the game, it was mostly hopeless zero pressure runs which opposition won't care at all.

2) Didn't remember the T20 match.

3) As I said in my post, he is good in playing supporting role when team is reeling at 50-4 and someone else is playing a better and more aggressive knock. Pandya was the one who made sure Dhoni could tuk-tuk and take his time from one end. He scored more runs than Dhoni and at better SR.

4) Pant has played 2 ODIs in his career. We can't expect him to debut with an audacious awe-inspiring 148* in first odi and follow it with a high pressure 83*(116) guiding his team to victory in a difficult run-chase. This is why I said he should have been there in the XI two years ago and given time to develop himself. You become a star after you play some games for the team, you don't become a star and then debut in the international cricket.

5) 49* at SR of 120,lol, taking his team to 375,even more lol. So, that means in a situation where he should have hit at 200 SR, he hits a 49* off 42 balls. Surely would have got a couple of big hits in final over to make stats look good against a legendary SL side.

6) Another support knock, platform laid, didn't even batted that aggressive.

As much as you say, fact is amidst several of his match-losing knocks, he plays a couple of good knocks(not even great) against Sl and WI in suporting role when the platform was laid, explains us the mediocrity he has possessed in last 1-1.5 years and btw before that, he had a good 1 year but he has been done as a batsmen way back since 2015 only. He averages 45 in 2015 and 27 in 2016 which you seem to ignore and averages don't explain how mediocre he has been over last 4 years.

First time I'm seeing a batsman being criticized for having a 45 avg over a year. LOL

I guess rules are different for Dhoni where 45 avg is poor but Pant with a List A avg of 29 is the second coming of Jesus Christ and savior of Indian cricket.

The rest of all you post is gibberish, to be honest. And I expected better from a seasoned poster like you.

You're criticising Dhoni for having a SR of 118 in his 49* while everyone apart from Kohli (SR of 131) had SR of 119 or under in that match. Even Rohit, after opening the batting scoring a century managed a SR of 116. Manish Pandey, who batted just above Dhoni also had a SR of 119 but shame on Dhoni for not being able to strike at 300

If you had genuine arguments against Dhoni's finishing ability, you would have brought it. But you haven't because there aren't any.

Dhoni is no longer the finisher he was in 2012. That is normal and people need to wrap their heads around it. If they can't accept the natural way of life, then it's their problem and their lack of common sense. But to say that Dhoni is no longer capable of finishing innings is an outright lie, as I have already shown.

 

[the_outsider]

Missed no. 5 and referred no. 6 and 7 as no. 5 and 6 by fault. Coming to no.5, again, it took him Bhuvi on other end to play a more aggressive knock and change the game at a higher SR and he scored more runs than MS as well .

Clearly as I said, he is good in controlling the game in supporting role when his team is reeling and there is no scoreboard pressure and someone else is playing a better knock from other end. This is a job which Rayudu or even Rahane could do. So, Dhoni's batting is mostly insignificant and it is only his wicket-keeping and his experience that will count in the WC but I believe if Indian management were more cautious and Dhoni was less selfish, the whole planning and setup should have been done after 2015 WC only.

However, it was a harder thing as Dhoni is a big name and as long as he doesn't want, team management or captain can't do anything for that. So, at the end, India had to accept MSD at 5 and make changes according to that, which is what they are doing and it is to be seen if these biasedness will cost India in WC or not.

Seriously man, you're having an off day as a poster.

What does that even mean? Something even Rahane or Rayadu can do?

If Rahane or Rayadu were 80% of the keeper that Dhoni is then it would have made sense.

Your argument is that:

"this all-arounder's (Dhoni) batting contribution is the same as this pure batsman's is (Rayudu/Rahane). So what's so special about him?"

Do you see how ridiculous that sounds? I can't even...

 

[RyanRyan10]

Because Pant can do what Kedar is doing. And he might do it at an even better SR. But he can't perform the role that Dhoni has been given - that of an anchor if the top order fails. Because he hasn't developed his game that way yet. Pant plays in pretty much 1 gear. If you had followed him in domestics, you would have known that too.

U have said in some of posts that Pant isn't even ready for international cricket for 50 overs and now all of a sudden he becomes better than Jadhav who is actually rated by you

And stop being a judge
You are not the only one who follows doemstic cricket

 

[Ab Fan]

First time I'm seeing a batsman being criticized for having a 45 avg over a year. LOL

I guess rules are different for Dhoni where 45 avg is poor but Pant with a List A avg of 29 is the second coming of Jesus Christ and savior of Indian cricket.

The rest of all you post is gibberish, to be honest. And I expected better from a seasoned poster like you.

You're criticising Dhoni for having a SR of 118 in his 49* while everyone apart from Kohli (SR of 131) had SR of 119 or under in that match. Even Rohit, after opening the batting scoring a century managed a SR of 116. Manish Pandey, who batted just above Dhoni also had a SR of 119 but shame on Dhoni for not being able to strike at 300

If you had genuine arguments against Dhoni's finishing ability, you would have brought it. But you haven't because there aren't any.

Dhoni is no longer the finisher he was in 2012. That is normal and people need to wrap their heads around it. If they can't accept the natural way of life, then it's their problem and their lack of common sense. But to say that Dhoni is no longer capable of finishing innings is an outright lie, as I have already shown.

I am not criticising Dhoni for that inning but I am debating that there was nothing special about that inning and any young player like Rayudu or Rahane can play it, while Dhoni would play match-losing knocks along with that as well.

As for the 45 avg that year, well, my friend, I followed Dhoni's batting very well that year and those stats are as misleading as it gets. 45 doesn't explain how poor he was that year. Just go and look all his innings-by-innings performance that year and context of the game as well. It will explain it all. No matter how much you defend, there are several Dhoni's inning which numerically look good but they don't explain how hopeless those runs were.

It is something which posters on PP have watched regularly, criticised regularly but nothing changes. He scores a 40 ball 40 when he should have scored a 40 ball 60 and then hits a couple of boundaries and ends up with 50*(42), making it look like a fantastic inning but those numbers don't explain whole thing.

 

[Ab Fan]

Seriously man, you're having an off day as a poster.

What does that even mean? Something even Rahane or Rayadu can do?

If Rahane or Rayadu were 80% of the keeper that Dhoni is then it would have made sense.

Your argument is that:

<B>"this all-arounder's (Dhoni) batting contribution is the same as this pure batsman's is (Rayudu/Rahane). So what's so special about him?"</B>
Do you see how ridiculous that sounds? I can't even...

This is not my argument. This is a very poor understanding from your end. My argument is that the only thing Dhoni does with bat is something which Rahane and Rayudu can do and on a consistent basis unlike Dhoni who plays match-losing knocks continuously as well and Rayudu has improved his aggressive game off-late as well. These two bat at 4 and will be required to play longer innings, control the game while when Dhoni comes to bat, its about getting some quick runs which he hasn't.

 

[WengerOut]

You need to sort your understanding out.

1. You're the one who is using the insane logic of comparing Dhoni's and Pant's 2 innings when they played together. Which is absolutely ridiculous considering Dhoni has played 300 matches.

2. I said Dhoni is no more the finisher he was . Doesn't mean that he isn't a finisher anymore.

3. Pant is definitely a better T20 player at this point than Dhoni. But that doesn't change the fact that he failed to win his team as many matches as Dhoni did in IPL 2018.

For example, would you say Kohli is a better T20 player than Dhoni? Yes, right? But then look back and see how many matches Kohli won for RCB last season and look at how many times he has managed to take his team to the final. Kohli and Pant are currently both better T20 batsmen than Dhoni. But Dhoni has still outperformed them in IPL 2018. If you can't understand the distinction there, I can't help you.

Oh bhai, again you're making no sense


1) We are comparing current situation not historical. Dhoni might have found the solution to global warming earlier, but that is not the point now. We are comparing current Dhoni and his ODI rivals. His rival was given just 2 matches in which he outdid Dhoni. Why are you bringing his 300 ODIs again and again. That is past. Currently he is a burden.

2) You clearly said he can hit sixes at will also. Clearly a contradiction there. And no, I have not seen Dhoni the finisher lately.

3) Absolute rubbish if a batsmans impact is measured in team success. It is a team game for heaven's sake. You are conveniently ignoring the Ponting - Tendulkar analogy. IPL 2018, CSK won the tournament, but Dhoni was not man of the tournament. Because he was not the best player. Salah was the player of the season last Epl. But Liverpool did not win the season. A batsman can only perform on his own. Rest is upto the quality of the team. Just ridiculous your "impact" logic, which is very convenient and intangible. In fact - rubbish.

 

[the_outsider]

It is something which posters on PP have watched regularly, criticised regularly but nothing changes. He scores a 40 ball 40 when he should have scored a 40 ball 60 and then hits a couple of boundaries and ends up with 50*(42), making it look like a fantastic inning but those numbers don't explain whole thing.

That is how Dhoni has played for years now. Not just post 2015. Even his iconic WC final innings was built on that same template.

Dhoni had stopped playing his slam-bang brand of cricket by 2008, maybe 2009. Since then, this is the template he has followed - of taking the game deep. And with that approach he has come out on the right side of things more often than not. But suddenly people seem to have a problem with it.

And like I said, he scored a 28-ball 52* in SA just this year. So to say that Dhoni can now only play the anchor role is also a misrepresentation.

 

[Ab Fan]

To conclude as posters seems to be going in circle and instead of understanding things, rather mixing it up, the only role which Dhoni is capable with bat is controlling the game at one end in supporting cause when there is no quick run scoring pressure. However,this is the role which a good no. 4 can play and at 6, you need a guy like Pant who is more of a Raina like player in my eyes.

So, Dhoni's batting is mostly insignificant here.

That's all from here.

 

[WengerOut]

To conclude as posters seems to be going in circle and instead of understanding things, rather mixing it up, the only role which Dhoni is capable with bat is controlling the game at one end in supporting cause when there is no quick run scoring pressure. However,this is the role which a good no. 4 can play and at 6, you need a guy like Pant who is more of a Raina like player in my eyes.

So, Dhoni's batting is mostly insignificant here.

That's all from here.

Man, this circling thing has been going on for long. Rather, goal post shifting to be exact. Impact, tactics, finisher, blah blah blah

 

[the_outsider]

U have said in some of posts that Pant isn't even ready for international cricket for 50 overs and now all of a sudden he becomes better than Jadhav who is actually rated by you

And stop being a judge
You are not the only one who follows doemstic cricket

Yes I rate Kedar a lot. A lot more than many here on PP do.

That's why I said that if Pant can bowl part-time like him and can perform with the bat (which I think he can at no 6) then I would like to have had him in Kedar's place.

You're not understanding where I am coming from. I am looking at roles that the individuals can play - because that's how a team's template is build - based on roles.

The number Kedar/Hardik come in at, most of the times they have to play a T20 type of role. Which I know Pant is capable of doing. Even better than Kedar.

But Dhoni performs 2 different roles. He has to be the anchor at times and a slogged if he comes in after the 42nd over.

If I'm playing with Pant, Kedar and Hardik, then I have 3 power hitters but nobody who can hold on end of the team is 120/5 after 25 overs. If Pant was versatile enough to play both roles, he could have been in the team (even though his keeping is mediocre). But if the team is 5 down after 25 overs and Pant comes in to bat - I would be worried. Because on some odd day he will smash a 60 ball 100 to recover the team. But most of the times, he won't be able to do that. He will lose his wicket quickly which will put even more pressure on Kedar and Hardik which means that even those 2 won't be able to play attacking cricket.

A big part of why Kedar & Hardik can play aggressively is because of the assurance that Dhoni is there on the other end and so even if they get out, someone will be there to bat with the tail.

We are not the English ODI team. We don't have hitters down till 11. Our batting ends at no 7, basically. This Indian team needs a lower order batsman who can stick around so that the team can play out as many balls as possible in the allotted 50 overs.

 

[Ab Fan]

That is how Dhoni has played for years now. Not just post 2015. Even his iconic WC final innings was built on that same template.

Dhoni had stopped playing his slam-bang brand of cricket by 2008, maybe 2009. Since then, this is the template he has followed - of taking the game deep. And with that approach he has come out on the right side of things more often than not. But suddenly people seem to have a problem with it.

And like I said, he scored a 28-ball 52* in SA just this year. So to say that Dhoni can now only play the anchor role is also a misrepresentation.

In second inning of the game, he knew how to pace his game, control the game and when to accelerate and finish off games. This is something he has lost.

In first inning of the game, since 2008-09 only, he lost that slam-bang bread but there was Yuvraj and Raina who would do it for India and hide it for Dhoni. In second inning though, Dhoni was absolutely phenomenal. No one matched him there and that is what made him a great finisher.

 

[RyanRyan10]

Man, this circling thing has been going on for long. Rather, goal post shifting to be exact. Impact, tactics, finisher, blah blah blah

And also "Anchor's Role","balance"

He is One who says not to mix the formats but now he is bringing t20is to defend the odi performance of Dhoni

 

[the_outsider]

To conclude as posters seems to be going in circle and instead of understanding things, rather mixing it up, the only role which Dhoni is capable with bat is controlling the game at one end in supporting cause when there is no quick run scoring pressure. However,this is the role which a good no. 4 can play and at 6, you need a guy like Pant who is more of a Raina like player in my eyes.

So, Dhoni's batting is mostly insignificant here.

That's all from here.

We have been playing with a number 4 all this time too, right? Why did we need Dhoni then?

You are one who is going in circles. You're saying "oh a no 4 can do this job". Well tough luck. Because Dhoni plays that innings when the no 4 gets out. So what no 4 you are talking about idk.

We already have a player like Raina in the team. His name is Kedar Jadhav.

What we don't have is a lower order anchor when the top 4 are back in the hut before the 30th over. If you think Pant is the guy for that role, then so be it. I don't buy it.

PS: once again you're ignoring that 52 of 170 SR knock in SA. probably because it doesn't support your idea of "Dhoni is only good at playing support role".

 

[Rahul1]

You must be joking.

All media houses are pouncing on Dhoni and asking for his retirement. Many fans, such as yourself are clamouring for his head.

If I were impressionable, I would be in your camp - asking for Dhoni to retire.

But I know that Dhoni wouldn't be playing the WC unless he genuinely felt that he can contribute to a WC win. I have seen that man do some truly UNBELIEVABLE things on the cricket field. So if he has faith in himself, I have faith in him too. Because he has earned it.

You can think whatever you want. My opinion isn't changing. And neither is the team's. So good luck to you on your noble quest on deciding when a legend should retire.

If grandpa actually cared about Indian team he would have retired after 2015 world cup.

 

[WengerOut]

We have been playing with a number 4 all this time too, right? Why did we need Dhoni then?

You are one who is going in circles. You're saying "oh a no 4 can do this job". Well tough luck. Because Dhoni plays that innings when the no 4 gets out. So what no 4 you are talking about idk.

We already have a player like Raina in the team. His name is Kedar Jadhav.

What we don't have is a lower order anchor when the top 4 are back in the hut before the 30th over. If you think Pant is the guy for that role, then so be it. I don't buy it.

PS: once again you're ignoring that 52 of 170 SR knock in SA. probably because it doesn't support your idea of "Dhoni is only good at playing support role".

Manish Pandey scored in that match, right?? So Manish is also a finisher, let's select him as well.

 

[WengerOut]

If grandpa actually cared about Indian team he would have retired after 2015 world cup.

Worse, he was clinging onto T20 team. Serving the nation. Ha. Ha. Haaa

 

[the_outsider]

If grandpa actually cared about Indian team he would have retired after 2015 world cup.

Is that what you're going with, then? That Dhoni doesn't care about Indian cricket?

The man who didn't go back home to see the birth of his first born because a according to him he was on "national duty" doesn't care about Indian cricket?

Have some shame, sir.

 

[the_outsider]

Manish Pandey scored in that match, right?? So Manish is also a finisher, let's select him as well.

I am a BIG fan of Manish Pandey. I would have been incredibly happy if he was our no 4 right now. So yeah, if Rayadu doesn't continue his form, let's.

Let's select him. Nothing would make me happier.

 

[WengerOut]

Is that what you're going with, then? That Dhoni doesn't care about Indian cricket?

The man who didn't go back home to see the birth of his first born because a according to him he was on "national duty" doesn't care about Indian cricket?

Have some shame, sir.

Thala fan spotted

 

[WengerOut]

I am a BIG fan of Manish Pandey. I would have been incredibly happy if he was our no 4 right now. So yeah, if Rayadu doesn't continue his form, let's.

Let's select him. Nothing would make me happier.

Nice way to dodge the question. Big salute sir.

 

[RyanRyan10]

Yes I rate Kedar a lot. A lot more than many here on PP do.

That's why I said that if Pant can bowl part-time like him and can perform with the bat (which I think he can at no 6) then I would like to have had him in Kedar's place.

You're not understanding where I am coming from. I am looking at roles that the individuals can play - because that's how a team's template is build - based on roles.

The number Kedar/Hardik come in at, most of the times they have to play a T20 type of role. Which I know Pant is capable of doing. Even better than Kedar.

But Dhoni performs 2 different roles. He has to be the anchor at times and a slogged if he comes in after the 42nd over.

If I'm playing with Pant, Kedar and Hardik, then I have 3 power hitters but nobody who can hold on end of the team is 120/5 after 25 overs. If Pant was versatile enough to play both roles, he could have been in the team (even though his keeping is mediocre). But if the team is 5 down after 25 overs and Pant comes in to bat - I would be worried. Because on some odd day he will smash a 60 ball 100 to recover the team. But most of the times, he won't be able to do that. He will lose his wicket quickly which will put even more pressure on Kedar and Hardik which means that even those 2 won't be able to play attacking cricket.

A big part of why Kedar & Hardik can play aggressively is because of the assurance that Dhoni is there on the other end and so even if they get out, someone will be there to bat with the tail.

We are not the English ODI team. We don't have hitters down till 11. Our batting ends at no 7, basically. This Indian team needs a lower order batsman who can stick around so that the team can play out as many balls as possible in the allotted 50 overs.

At present an "anchor" can't afford to score at a SR of 80 at which MSD has been operating for past 3 years that too coming at no.5 or no.6
He is just too slow as per today's odi cricket


And don't u think Kedar can play anchor role without killing the momentum if given proper chances as he has got a great list A record and u are a big fan of domestic stats

 

[the_outsider]

Nice way to dodge the question. Big salute sir.

You asked me if we should select Manish Pandey and I gave you a straight answer.

Unless your question had some sort of hidden agenda I don't see how I dogded anything.

 

[Rahul1]

Is that what you're going with, then? That Dhoni doesn't care about Indian cricket?

The man who didn't go back home to see the birth of his first born because a according to him he was on "national duty" doesn't care about Indian cricket?

Have some shame, sir.

Stop giving me lectures man. Your support for sheer mediocrity is well known here and there is no need fir you to show a holier than thou attitude.

 

[WengerOut]

You asked me if we should select Manish Pandey and I gave you a straight answer.

Unless your question had some sort of hidden agenda I don't see how I dogded anything.

You know it and I know that you know it.

 

[the_outsider]

You know it and I know that you know it.

I honestly don't. Why don't you say what you want to say?

 

[the_outsider]

Stop giving me lectures man. Your support for sheer mediocrity is well known here and there is no need fir you to show a holier than thou attitude.

People calling legends "grandpa" don't get to lecture others on their attitude.

You reap what you sow.

 

[the_outsider]

At present an "anchor" can't afford to score at a SR of 80 at which MSD has been operating for past 3 years that too coming at no.5 or no.6
He is just too slow as per today's odi cricket


And don't u think Kedar can play anchor role without killing the momentum if given proper chances as he has got a great list A record and u are a big fan of domestic stats

Kedar has been playing regularly for the last 2 years whenever he is fit. Who is not giving him "proper chances"?

 

[WengerOut]

I honestly don't. Why don't you say what you want to say?

Leave it man. Already feels like Groundhog Day.

 

[the_outsider]

Leave it man. Already feels like Groundhog Day.

Ah! At least we got a pop reference out of it.

What a debate! Time well spent.

 

[RyanRyan10]

Kedar has been playing regularly for the last 2 years whenever he is fit. Who is not giving him "proper chances"?

Proper chances as "anchor" and not just as a finisher
most of the times he comes to bat after 40 overs or doesn't get to bat at all

My point is he won't score slowly like Dhoni if given the opportunity to play the anchor's role Dhoni is being expected to play

 

[the_outsider]

Proper chances as "anchor" and not just as a finisher
most of the times he comes to bat after 40 overs or doesn't get to bat at all

My point is he won't score slowly like Dhoni if given the opportunity to play the anchor's role Dhoni is being expected to play

Kedar has been promoted ahead of Dhoni several times, actually.

I do think that he can play the anchor role better than Hardik or Pant. But if Kedar was good enough to take over Dhoni's role by now then we wouldn't have needed Dhoni's services in the last 2 years, would we? But we still needed him throughout 2017 and even in the Asia Cup final in 2018. So I would have to say, going by evidence that Kedar hasn't been able to take over Dhoni's role yet.

People are underestimating Dhoni and his contribution to this team. Doesn't surprise me though. The same thing happened with Sachin so I suppose it can happen with anybody.

 

[Rahul1]

Leave it man. Already feels like Groundhog Day.

Your avtar is the perfect response to the_outaider's posts.

 

[happydavy]

Dhoni fans' initial arguments in this thread were that he's the best keeper so he should plau, he can still bat and that he's the only player in the world cup who knows how to win the world cup. When those arguments were shred to pieces with evidences and data, then started the emotional drama that Dhoni knows when to retire and that he has sacrificed so much for the nation. This is what happens when people grow up watching and believing media rather than use common sense. Dhoni was living a life and doing a job that anyone in cricket would love to do. He was making millions for doing his job, so anyone who thinks that's some sacrifice, probably needs to watch less of Bollywood movies. I am sure same posters also believe that Dhoni was crying after 2015 WC loss to Australia.

Dhoni was done in 2015 WC itself when he couldn't hit on decent pace, since then it's been a downward journey. I was at Sydney watching that painful Dhoni's inning and while I am sure Dhoni fans would say he scored a 40ish or something, most people in the crowd were crticising Dhoni for making a joke of semi final like event, moment Kohli and Sharma got out. There was no fight from Dhoni to win the match.

 

[RyanRyan10]

Kedar has been promoted ahead of Dhoni several times, actually.

I do think that he can play the anchor role better than Hardik or Pant. But if Kedar was good enough to take over Dhoni's role by now then we wouldn't have needed Dhoni's services in the last 2 years, would we? But we still needed him throughout 2017 and even in the Asia Cup final in 2018. So I would have to say, going by evidence that Kedar hasn't been able to take over Dhoni's role yet.

People are underestimating Dhoni and his contribution to this team. Doesn't surprise me though. The same thing happened with Sachin so I suppose it can happen with anybody.

No one is "underestimating" Dhoni
He has been losing us more matches than he has been winning us which can be clearly seen
Even stats prove that unless you filter them

 

[Realromeo]

World cup is all about experience. Without Dhoni, there is no experience after no.3. Also, Dhoni is a great tactician in tournaments. Kohli needs him more than Dhoni needs team India spot. He's achieved everything as a captain in LOI cricket. As a player he exceeded everybody's expectations long time ago and has some of the best clutch innings in history of LOI cricket. As a fan of Dhoni, I hope he wcores a few runs before his final swansong.

Actually Dhoni is not a great tactician, he is good, but not great he gets the lime light because of our media and its just a hype.

 

[Realromeo]

Kohli is a wuss, Dhoni is gonna cost us a world cup, in English condition with his reflexes slowed down, Dhoni is going to embarrass us.

 

[Realromeo]

Dhoni fans' initial arguments in this thread were that he's the best keeper so he should plau, he can still bat and that he's the only player in the world cup who knows how to win the world cup. When those arguments were shred to pieces with evidences and data, then started the emotional drama that Dhoni knows when to retire and that he has sacrificed so much for the nation. This is what happens when people grow up watching and believing media rather than use common sense. Dhoni was living a life and doing a job that anyone in cricket would love to do. He was making millions for doing his job, so anyone who thinks that's some sacrifice, probably needs to watch less of Bollywood movies. I am sure same posters also believe that Dhoni was crying after 2015 WC loss to Australia.

Dhoni was done in 2015 WC itself when he couldn't hit on decent pace, since then it's been a downward journey. I was at Sydney watching that painful Dhoni's inning and while I am sure Dhoni fans would say he scored a 40ish or something, most people in the crowd were crticising Dhoni for making a joke of semi final like event, moment Kohli and Sharma got out. There was no fight from Dhoni to win the match.

His abilities are extremely overhyped, thanks to him bullying our trundlers in flat and spin bowling conditions in IPL. His tactics aren't great either they are just advertised well enough. If he was truly a tactician, he would have found ways to score good runs.

 

[Hasan123]

Dhoni is past his best but he will until the WC. This topic doesn't need to be debated every time India play a LO game lol.

 

[rhony]

Actually Dhoni is not a great tactician, he is good, but not great he gets the lime light because of our media and its just a hype.

He is eons better than Kohli in strategizing. Dhoni is guiding the spinners and India relies on the wrist spinners for middle overs wickets, which has been the key to their success after CT. He is a much better keeper than Pant against spinners.

Now talking about his possible replacements, DK can bat just a bit better than Dhoni now and can keep on par with MS but can't assist Kohli with tactics. But DK has failed to claim a spot just based on his batting.

Pant is not a very good keeper and forget being a tactician, he seems to have some mental problems of his own. Despite his test exploits, in the limited opportunities he got in LOIs, he's desperate to hoick every ball into Oblivion and doesn't evoke any confidence. He to me was the big reason for India losing the recent ODI vs WI. Those cross batted shots on every alternate ball is not how you play when you are chasing in this Indian team that chooses to chase more often than not.

India hopes Dhoni can guide the middle order with a timely 30 to 40 runs at the required SR as he did in the Asia cup final. They hope he can tonk a few if required in the last few overs. Nobody is assuming that Dhoni will be the chasing master he once was. He has a new role and there is no alternative for that role until the world cup. Dhoni led successful campaigns in world events and India always seemed like a well oiled machine under him. Kohli is not going to lose that 7 months before a world cup.

 

[RyanRyan10]

He is eons better than Kohli in strategizing. Dhoni is guiding the spinners and India relies on the wrist spinners for middle overs wickets, which has been the key to their success after CT. He is a much better keeper than Pant against spinners.

Now talking about his possible replacements, DK can bat just a bit better than Dhoni now and can keep on par with MS but can't assist Kohli with tactics. But DK has failed to claim a spot just based on his batting.

Pant is not a very good keeper and forget being a tactician, he seems to have some mental problems of his own. Despite his test exploits, in the limited opportunities he got in LOIs, he's desperate to hoick every ball into Oblivion and doesn't evoke any confidence. He to me was the big reason for India losing the recent ODI vs WI. Those cross batted shots on every alternate ball is not how you play when you are chasing in this Indian team that chooses to chase more often than not.

India hopes Dhoni can guide the middle order with a timely 30 to 40 runs at the required SR as he did in the Asia cup final. They hope he can tonk a few if required in the last few overs. Nobody is assuming that Dhoni will be the chasing master he once was. He has a new role and there is no alternative for that role until the world cup. Dhoni led successful campaigns in world events and India always seemed like a well oiled machine under him. Kohli is not going to lose that 7 months before a world cup.

Dhoni can become India's coach and assist Kohli with his tips
After all our current coach in getting paid for doing nothing

 

[happydavy]

Dhoni can become India's coach and assist Kohli with his tips
After all our current coach in getting paid for doing nothing

Hehe yeah that way Dhoni's patriotism to help the country win will come to fore..and Shastri sir is not a coach, he's the Chief Happiness Officer for the team

 

[rhony]

Dhoni can become India's coach and assist Kohli with his tips
After all our current coach in getting paid for doing nothing

And Pant can hack a six and get back to pavilion?

 

[Ab Fan]

We have been playing with a number 4 all this time too, right? Why did we need Dhoni then?

You are one who is going in circles. You're saying "oh a no 4 can do this job". <B>Well tough luck. Because Dhoni plays that innings when the no 4 gets out. So what no 4 you are talking about idk.</B>

We already have a player like Raina in the team. His name is Kedar Jadhav.

What we don't have is a lower order anchor when the top 4 are back in the hut before the 30th over. If you think Pant is the guy for that role, then so be it. I don't buy it.

PS: once again you're ignoring that 52 of 170 SR knock in SA. probably because it doesn't support your idea of "Dhoni is only good at playing support role".

Dhoni doesn't play any great inning. The only thing he does over a course of 10 matches is a couple of occasions when he scores a 70 odd of 60 balls in supporting role after the platform is laid and one occasion when he scores a useless 60 when team loses early wickets up the order. Rest of the seven occasions he would fail or play match-losing knocks.

This is why India shouldn't keep any hope from Dhoni because he is guaranteed to fail seven out of 10 occasions. One random T20 knock (the one you mentioned) after continuous criticism of not scoring fast for 20-30 matches doesn't change the general consensus that he lacks the ability of scoring runs at a good pace.

As for a no. 4, it is team management fault and they have messed up with that position by trying different players every now and then. If India would have dropped MSD 2 years ago, this problem would have been solved till now because there have been several instances when Dhoni kills the momentum of the game and create pressure on the other end which lead to the other batsmen throwing his wicket as he is in two minds- either to save his place in the XI or score quick-fire runs.

Now, there is nothing India can do about and have to remain in the mediocrity of Rayudu, Dhoni and Jadhav in the middle order. Of late, Rayudu and Jadhav have done well but I am not much confident how they will do when playing against better sides in World Cup. I don't want this inclusion of Pant now as there is not enough he could give to Indian team in such short amount of time.

 

[Ab Fan]

But Pant could have been of more utility had Dhoni retired 2 years ago and if that would have happened, then by now India would have solved their no. 4 problem as well.

 

[RyanRyan10]

And Pant can hack a six and get back to pavilion?

u said that DK can bat better than Dhoni & keeping is par with him
Only thing that makes Dhoni better is that he can assist Kohli with his tips
So I suggested Dhoni to become a coach and assist Kohli with his valuable tips
We can get 2 benefits
1.a better player in the XI
2.a coach who actually does something,the current coach is getting paid for being a cheerleader

 

[Saurav]

We have been playing with a number 4 all this time too, right? Why did we need Dhoni then?

You are one who is going in circles. You're saying "oh a no 4 can do this job". Well tough luck. Because Dhoni plays that innings when the no 4 gets out. So what no 4 you are talking about idk.

We already have a player like Raina in the team. His name is Kedar Jadhav.

What we don't have is a lower order anchor when the top 4 are back in the hut before the 30th over. If you think Pant is the guy for that role, then so be it. I don't buy it.

PS: once again you're ignoring that 52 of 170 SR knock in SA. probably because it doesn't support your idea of "Dhoni is only good at playing support role".

Jadhav is that guy isnt it.He has shown the maturity to play according to the situation without getting bogged down. Dhoni's SR is way too low for the position he bats,even if ignore the averages

 

[the_outsider]

Dhoni doesn't play any great inning. The only thing he does over a course of 10 matches is a couple of occasions when he scores a 70 odd of 60 balls in supporting role after the platform is laid and one occasion when he scores a useless 60 when team loses early wickets up the order. Rest of the seven occasions he would fail or play match-losing knocks.

This is why India shouldn't keep any hope from Dhoni because he is guaranteed to fail seven out of 10 occasions. One random T20 knock (the one you mentioned) after continuous criticism of not scoring fast for 20-30 matches doesn't change the general consensus that he lacks the ability of scoring runs at a good pace.

As for a no. 4, it is team management fault and they have messed up with that position by trying different players every now and then. If India would have dropped MSD 2 years ago, this problem would have been solved till now because there have been several instances when Dhoni kills the momentum of the game and create pressure on the other end which lead to the other batsmen throwing his wicket as he is in two minds- either to save his place in the XI or score quick-fire runs.

Now, there is nothing India can do about and have to remain in the mediocrity of Rayudu, Dhoni and Jadhav in the middle order. Of late, Rayudu and Jadhav have done well but I am not much confident how they will do when playing against better sides in World Cup. I don't want this inclusion of Pant now as there is not enough he could give to Indian team in such short amount of time.

India did try Pant in 2016 as well as 2017 in T20s. He was a total dud there.

And Pant of 2018 isn't good enough to be an international level keeper what makes you think Pant of 2016 was.

Back in 2016 Pant was very much a shot-a-ball T20 hack. As he showed, he wasn't even up to the standards of international T20, let alone international 50 overs cricket. In fact, he wasn't even good in the IPL until this year.

I won't discuss the first half of your post because clearly we don't see eye to eye there. I have given some instances of Dhoni's knocks over the last few months but that's all I can do.

 

[the_outsider]

To make Dhoni into the villain, people are bending over backwards to make Pant sound like he's Adam Gilchrist.

Pant is very talented. But let's not get carried away. In white ball cricket, across levels, the only real achievement Pant has had is IPL 2018.

Pant is no Prithvi Shaw or Gill. Yet, people seem to be putting them in the same category. Fact of the matter is that there are 3-4 players as good as Pant in the CPL and BBL. He may (and should) improve his game over the years but right now he's only one step better than a T20 slogger.

 

[WengerOut]

To make Dhoni into the villain, people are bending over backwards to make Pant sound like he's Adam Gilchrist.

Pant is very talented. But let's not get carried away. In white ball cricket, across levels, the only real achievement Pant has had is IPL 2018.

Pant is no Prithvi Shaw or Gill. Yet, people seem to be putting them in the same category. Fact of the matter is that there are 3-4 players as good as Pant in the CPL and BBL. He may (and should) improve his game over the years but right now he's only one step better than a T20 slogger.

Nobody said Pant is gilchrist. But he won't become even a poor man's gilly unless given chances. You yourself debated about giving Shardul chances. What about Pant here? To justify Dhoni s inclusion, you are making all sorts of excuses. Just read your own posts. By your own admission, DK got booted out unfairly, same with Manish Pandey, Yuvraj etc. Why discriminate Pant, then?? He has been only given 2 ODIs and maybe a couple more T20s. Is that enough? Like I said, he has performed better than Dhoni and Kohli in their first 2 matches. Before you pounce on me, NO, I am not comparing just the start of their careers not them as a whole. What he will end up, nobody knows. It is a fact that Dhoni is a very mediocre batsman now against half decent bowling.

 

[Saurav]

He is eons better than Kohli in strategizing. Dhoni is guiding the spinners and India relies on the wrist spinners for middle overs wickets, which has been the key to their success after CT. He is a much better keeper than Pant against spinners.

Now talking about his possible replacements, DK can bat just a bit better than Dhoni now and can keep on par with MS but can't assist Kohli with tactics. But DK has failed to claim a spot just based on his batting.

Pant is not a very good keeper and forget being a tactician, he seems to have some mental problems of his own. Despite his test exploits, in the limited opportunities he got in LOIs, he's desperate to hoick every ball into Oblivion and doesn't evoke any confidence. He to me was the big reason for India losing the recent ODI vs WI. Those cross batted shots on every alternate ball is not how you play when you are chasing in this Indian team that chooses to chase more often than not.

India hopes Dhoni can guide the middle order with a timely 30 to 40 runs at the required SR as he did in the Asia cup final. They hope he can tonk a few if required in the last few overs. Nobody is assuming that Dhoni will be the chasing master he once was. He has a new role and there is no alternative for that role until the world cup. Dhoni led successful campaigns in world events and India always seemed like a well oiled machine under him. Kohli is not going to lose that 7 months before a world cup.

36 at a 53 SR? Not every time we'll be chasing 220?We need someone can play atleast near run a ball by rotating strike at that position.

 

[Saurav]

To make Dhoni into the villain, people are bending over backwards to make Pant sound like he's Adam Gilchrist.

Pant is very talented. But let's not get carried away. In white ball cricket, across levels, the only real achievement Pant has had is IPL 2018.

Pant is no Prithvi Shaw or Gill. Yet, people seem to be putting them in the same category. Fact of the matter is that there are 3-4 players as good as Pant in the CPL and BBL. He may (and should) improve his game over the years but right now he's only one step better than a T20 slogger.

He was first noticed in U19 WC.Also has done well in SMA trophy

T20 sloggers don't get overseas test tons .Dhoni never did,which shows how tough it is

 

[the_outsider]

He was first noticed in U19 WC.Also has done well in SMA trophy

T20 sloggers don't get overseas test tons .Dhoni never did,which shows how tough it is

Tell that to Maxwell who got his maiden test ton in India.

 

[WengerOut]

Tell that to Maxwell who got his maiden test ton in India.

Maxwell is a better batsman than Dhoni. He is not a slogger.

 

[the_outsider]

Nobody said Pant is gilchrist. But he won't become even a poor man's gilly unless given chances. You yourself debated about giving Shardul chances. What about Pant here? To justify Dhoni s inclusion, you are making all sorts of excuses. Just read your own posts. By your own admission, DK got booted out unfairly, same with Manish Pandey, Yuvraj etc. Why discriminate Pant, then?? He has been only given 2 ODIs and maybe a couple more T20s. Is that enough? Like I said, he has performed better than Dhoni and Kohli in their first 2 matches. Before you pounce on me, NO, I am not comparing just the start of their careers not them as a whole. What he will end up, nobody knows. It is a fact that Dhoni is a very mediocre batsman now against half decent bowling.

If I'm not wrong, apart from me, every single person on this forum was strongly against Thakur being in the squad.

But now, when it comes to Pant you all have taken a complete u-turn.

I do think Pant should be given more chances now for the simple reason that we have to take a backup to the WC.

And it's not like Pant wasn't given chances earlier. He was debuted in 2016. And now he is a permanent part of the T20Is so he is being given chances.

But to say that he hasn't been given enough chances is an unfair judgement because before IPL 2018, Pant had not done anything in white ball cricket to deserve a chance in the team anyway. And last but not the least, even today Pant is not a good enough international keeper. You can imagine what he was in 2016.

 

[Saurav]

Tell that to Maxwell who got his maiden test ton in India.

You mean a guy who averages 41 in Australian FC?

 

[the_outsider]

Maxwell is a better batsman than Dhoni. He is not a slogger.

Now you're just grovelling. And frankly, I'm no longer interested in this debate if you're going to pull rubbish like "Maxwell is a better bat than Dhoni."

If that's your understanding of cricket then I'm wasting my time. Later.

 

[the_outsider]

You mean a guy who averages 41 in Australian FC?

Yes. The very same. If you are convinced that Maxwell is anything more than a slogger then you and I have very different understanding of cricket.

 

[WengerOut]

If I'm not wrong, apart from me, every single person on this forum was strongly against Thakur being in the squad.

But now, when it comes to Pant you all have taken a complete u-turn.

I do think Pant should be given more chances now for the simple reason that we have to take a backup to the WC.

And it's not like Pant wasn't given chances earlier. He was debuted in 2016. And now he is a permanent part of the T20Is so he is being given chances.

But to say that he hasn't been given enough chances is an unfair judgement because before IPL 2018, Pant had not done anything in white ball cricket to deserve a chance in the team anyway. And last but not the least, even today Pant is not a good enough international keeper. You can imagine what he was in 2016.

Dude, you are en expert at goalpost shifting. I was arguing by your own Shardul theory just to make you understand. Does not change the fact that he is mediocre trundlers.

For Pant, I want them to give him chances now. I am not talking about before 2018.

PS: Pant debuted against England in 2017.

 

[WengerOut]

Now you're just grovelling. And frankly, I'm no longer interested in this debate if you're going to pull rubbish like "Maxwell is a better bat than Dhoni."

If that's your understanding of cricket then I'm wasting my time. Later.

The guy is in Aus ODI team and has a good record in FC. So, yeah he is a better batsman. Whether he has performed consistently is another matter. We were talking about scoring ton abroad which clearly is a matter of skill. Thereby i am saying skill wise he is better.

 

[the_outsider]

The guy is in Aus ODI team and has a good record in FC. So, yeah he is a better batsman. Whether he has performed consistently is another matter. We were talking about scoring ton abroad which clearly is a matter of skill. Thereby i am saying skill wise he is better.

Then you shouldn't have any problem with Rohit Sharma being in the test team. He is also in the ODI team and has a FC avg of 53.

Yet I know that you are a vocal critic of Rohit being in the test team.

So who's shifting goalposts now? Different rules for different players, right? Basically whatever it takes to pull Dhoni down.

PS: Dhoni has 7 scores of 76 or above in SENA. 13 scores of 50 or more. But I'm sure Maxwell with his solitary century in tests is miles better than Dhoni. After all, we all know that it's that last 10 runs from 90 to a 100 which is the true test of greatness. Even if it happens just once in a player's career. Hats off to your effort in trying to tread over Dhoni.

Glen Maxwell is a better batsman than Dhoni. Fantastic.

PPS: I am done with this conversation for now. I don't see any point in debating with someone who is so desperate that he will say Maxwell is better than Dhoni. You have lost all credibility with that.

 

[WengerOut]

Then you shouldn't have any problem with Rohit Sharma being in the test team. He is also in the ODI team and has a FC avg of 53.

Yet I know that you are a vocal critic of Rohit being in the test team.

So who's shifting goalposts now? Different rules for different players, right? Basically whatever it takes to pull Dhoni down.

PS: Dhoni has 7 scores of 76 or above in SENA. 13 scores of 50 or more. But I'm sure Maxwell with his solitary century in tests is miles better than Dhoni. After all, we all know that it's that last 10 runs from 90 to a 100 which is the true test of greatness. Even if it happens just once in a player's career. Hats off to your effort in trying to tread over Dhoni.

Glen Maxwell is a better batsman than Dhoni. Fantastic.

PPS: I am done with this conversation for now. I don't see any point in debating with someone who is so desperate that he will say Maxwell is better than Dhoni. You have lost all credibility with that.

Pulling out stats of a finished career guy against a career that never took off. Wow. You know it clearly it is a discussion of skill which is the basis of scoring abroad. I dint say Maxwell has performed better than Dhoni. I said skill wise, he is better. And Rohit Sharma is better too. But being batter than Dhoni does not mean much. So i don't want Rohit in the team. Somehow you want to drive the narrative to Dhoni against the world.

 

[Ab Fan]

Such terrible Indian team management. Dropped KL after giving meagre 3 matches at 4 in ODI cricket??

 

[happydavy]

Never thought I would say this, but considering how ineffective Dhoni as a batsman has become (and only getting worse), I would take Karthik over Dhoni, in case selectors are worried about Pant's lack of experience, in the WC squad.

Karthik has been an exceptionally lucky cricketer to play so much of international cricket without much performance, but in today's time, he's a better batsman than Dhoni.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

Such terrible Indian team management. Dropped KL after giving meagre 3 matches at 4 in ODI cricket??

Rightly so.

 

[Ab Fan]

Rightly so.

Thanks. It is so absurd that team management drops such a guy with great potential after giving him only 3 chances at 4.

Nice to see someone showing some brain on PP. Appreciate it from my end.

 

[the_outsider]

Thanks. It is so absurd that team management drops such a guy with great potential after giving him only 3 chances at 4.

Nice to see someone showing some brain on PP. Appreciate it from my end.

I don't think BVB is agreeing with you. He is not a fan of KL Rahul.