My gay daughter and her partner

[RexRex]

I just read the article below which I thought was becoming more commonplace in India. The author is a former diplomat, appears on indian TV shows regularly and a BJP supporter. The piece is about how he was reacted to the shock news of his daughter telling her she is gay.

How would you react as a religious person if your child came to you and said he/she is gay ?

Would you disown them or accept them and their same-sex partner as part of family ?

 

[sweep_shot]

Islam, Christianity, and Judaism - all 3 are anti-homosexuality. Point blank. There is no ambiguity.

Therefore, as a Muslim man, if my child chooses to have a homosexual partner, I cannot accept it as per the rulings of my religion. May Allah (SWT) doesn't put me in that situation.

Regarding disownment, I need to confirm with preachers/imams/scholars whether it should be the right course of action.

 

[Major]

Interesting thread.

I as a Liberal always imagine if i have kids and they made such and such choices, would I be comfortable as a father or not.

Thus, homosexuality is something I cant really support, because if my children turn out to be homosexual, I wont be able to accept that initially.

However, I am open minded to the fact that what makes a a gender attracted towards the same gender and not the opposite.. ANd someone who goes through such a condition, what options does he have?

Like if as a male you dont get aroused by a female but do so by a male, than what? What is the solution to such a problem?

I think this discussion should be on the basis of rational and not religion. We dont use religion for other things so why use it here? If you go to the clubbing thread, i dont see posters refer their religion there even though what happens in clubs is not allowed in our religion. I think bringing religion here is hypocritical, and this requires a logical discussion

 

[Champ_Pal]

If someone is gay, there is nothing you can do to change their sexual orientation. You can forcefully marry a gay man but he cannot perform sex with his wife. Marrying a lesbian woman to a man means, she is raped every time she has sex with her husband.

Best is to let people live the way they want to live instead of ruining theirs and their spouses wife.

 

[Gilly]

Your religion governs how you live your life, you have no right to expect others to live by your religious beliefs. If your child is gay then that is between them and their god.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Islam, Christianity, and Judaism - all 3 are anti-homosexuality. Point blank. There is no ambiguity.

Therefore, as a Muslim man, if my child chooses to have a homosexual partner, I cannot accept it as per the rulings of my religion. May Allah (SWT) doesn't put me in that situation.

Regarding disownment, I need to confirm with preachers/imams/scholars whether it should be the right course of action.

If you cannot accept their sexual preference, you have no other option but to disown them. The daily friction between a believer and their gay child will be too much for both parties to handle.

 

[Technics 1210]

No one is born gay. There is no gay gene, no DNA sequence, and no genetic marker that even hints at the notion.

Nurture is the reason why anyone is gay and thus the father in the OP only has himself to blame.

Unfettered Freedom, lack of discipline, lack of morals - has a price.

 

[Champ_Pal]

No one is born gay. There is no gay gene, no DNA sequence, and no genetic marker that even hints at the notion.

Nurture is the reason why anyone is gay and thus the father in the OP only has himself to blame.

Unfettered Freedom, lack of discipline, lack of morals - has a price.

Unfettered freedom does not make someone gay. How do you preach someone to not be gay? Even if you tell them, how can change someone's desire?

 

[sweep_shot]

Unfettered Freedom, lack of discipline, lack of morals - has a price.

I agree.

These 3 factors are some of the top reasons why the world has become very messed up.

Freedom shouldn't be unlimited. Discipline and morality are irreplaceable.

 

[Gilly]

No one is born gay. There is no gay gene, no DNA sequence, and no genetic marker that even hints at the notion.

Nurture is the reason why anyone is gay and thus the father in the OP only has himself to blame.

Unfettered Freedom, lack of discipline, lack of morals - has a price.

No one is born religious. There is no religious gene, no DNA sequence, and no genetic marker that even hints at the notion. Religion is a human invention for the control of people and the community.

 

[Technics 1210]

No one is born religious. There is no religious gene, no DNA sequence, and no genetic marker that even hints at the notion. Religion is a human invention for the control of people and the community.

Correct, religion is a choice, just like being gay is, thus gays blaming nature is an invention - an excuse - of moral compensation.

Happy Easter.

 

[sweep_shot]

No one is born religious. There is no religious gene, no DNA sequence, and no genetic marker that even hints at the notion. Religion is a human invention for the control of people and the community.

Is control (provided it is not extreme) really that bad?

We are human beings. We need law and order; we need guidelines; we need control. We are not like other animals.

 

[Gilly]

Correct, religion is a choice, just like being gay is, thus gays blaming nature is an invention - an excuse - of moral compensation.

Happy Easter.

Logic then is if you discriminate against anyone for their choices on sexuality then it would be OK for others to discriminate against you for choosing to be religious.

Merry Christmas.

 

[Technics 1210]

Logic then is if you discriminate against anyone for their choices on sexuality then it would be OK for others to discriminate against you for choosing to be religious.

Merry Christmas.

Who is discriminating? Pointing out choices is not discrimination.

Cheer up.

 

[Tera Gawaandi]

What is here to discuss?

Just because desi cultures are not pro drag queen and other lgbtq etc stuff doesn’t mean they are intolerant to gay people. All Muslims and people of other faiths are asking liberals is to stay away from kids and do not go overboard with making everything gay be it tv, roads, marketing. Many gay people also support this and are frustrated that transgenders and people with mental disorders have hurt their cause. These lgbtq etc people come across as most intolerant now.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Correct, religion is a choice, just like being gay is, thus gays blaming nature is an invention - an excuse - of moral compensation.

Happy Easter.

Religion is not a choice if you believe in Islam. Everyone is a born Muslim. When Adam was made, he did not have a choice to be made Atheist.

 

[Champ_Pal]

What is here to discuss?

Just because desi cultures are not pro drag queen and other lgbtq etc stuff doesn’t mean they are intolerant to gay people. All Muslims and people of other faiths are asking liberals is to stay away from kids and do not go overboard with making everything gay be it tv, roads, marketing. Many gay people also support this and are frustrated that transgenders and people with mental disorders have hurt their cause. These lgbtq etc people come across as most intolerant now.

I believe Trans have hijacked the LGBT rights movement. Gays and Lesbians are for themselves. Trans encroaches into other gender and competes with them in sports and other competitions. A huge injustice to natural born women.

 

[Justcrazy]

If you cannot accept their sexual preference, you have no other option but to disown them. The daily friction between a believer and their gay child will be too much for both parties to handle.

What they are doing is sin , but one cannot disown there children for sins , except when they leave Islam.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

May Allah swt protect me and my children from such a scenario.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Religion is not a choice if you believe in Islam. Everyone is a born Muslim. When Adam was made, he did not have a choice to be made Atheist.

Are you a muslim?

 

[Champ_Pal]

Are you a muslim?

No.

 

[Ahmad-GERMANFC]

No one is born gay. There is no gay gene, no DNA sequence, and no genetic marker that even hints at the notion.

Nurture is the reason why anyone is gay and thus the father in the OP only has himself to blame.

Unfettered Freedom, lack of discipline, lack of morals - has a price.

Then how are children of some priests and imam also gay

 

[Stewie]

No one is born gay. There is no gay gene, no DNA sequence, and no genetic marker that even hints at the notion.

Nurture is the reason why anyone is gay and thus the father in the OP only has himself to blame.

Unfettered Freedom, lack of discipline, lack of morals - has a price.

So is there a straight gene?


Sexual orientation is not a choice. Various scientific studies have shown that.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

No.

Sounds like a choice then.

 

[IMMY69]

I would embrace my children and tell them that if they're happy then I'm happy.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

" My journey to acceptance has made me a better person and a better Hindu"

I can respect these words, this is how I always imagined Hinduism to be, always flexible, and inclusive. Bravo to the journalist for presenting such a view in India itself.

On a personal note I wouldn't accept it as it goes against my personal beliefs of how life should be lived. I wouldn't disown any kids of mine who took such a misguided path as they are yours whether you disown them or not. But I would probably advise them to live their lives out of sight out of mind.

 

[Major]

I would embrace my children and tell them that if they're happy then I'm happy.

wow man, didnt expect you to have this POV

Maybe i always saw you as a conservative poster.

So, for you, would it be a dilemma from a religious pov? What have decided that if such a situation comes, how would you yourself be at peace if you dont believe in such things?

Some people say that everyone is answerable for their own actions, do you believe in this?

 

[IMMY69]

wow man, didnt expect you to have this POV

Maybe i always saw you as a conservative poster.

So, for you, would it be a dilemma from a religious pov? What have decided that if such a situation comes, how would you yourself be at peace if you dont believe in such things?

Some people say that everyone is answerable for their own actions, do you believe in this?

I have my own set of beliefs and I live by them and yes everyone is answerable for their own actions.

The most important thing I live by is to be able to sleep at night with a clear conscience and this largely involves being as good a human being as you can be.

 

[Stewie]

I have my own set of beliefs and I live by them and yes everyone is answerable for their own actions.

The most important thing I live by is to be able to sleep at night with a clear conscience and this largely involves being as good a human being as you can be.

This is how it should be, BRAVO!

Even if you consider homosexuality a disease, will you abandon a family member who was .. say dying of cancer?

 

[SalimBhai]

Live and let live is my philosophy . I have a gay cousin,who is 42 years old. I knew he was gay when I was a teenager . Parents forced him to marry . After years of marriage , he came out. Divorced l. Now lives openly gay and his parents , x wife and children have accepted him who he is.

 

[Major]

I have my own set of beliefs and I live by them and yes everyone is answerable for their own actions.

The most important thing I live by is to be able to sleep at night with a clear conscience and this largely involves being as good a human being as you can be.

good to know man, i respect your beliefs.

i asked these questions cause of i have these conflicting thoughts

 

[SalimBhai]

Also it’s not that easy to give up on your kids. Look at the USA. I remember The Christian hatred for gays. Now the same people have accepted it if a family member is gay. We are in no position to judge.

 

[Stewie]

good to know man, i respect your beliefs.

i asked these questions cause of i have these conflicting thoughts

As do I, on such matters. Not sure if you are married and have kids, but when you do, this issue becomes a lot more of a beast.

I struggle with it everyday. Kids here in the US are taught tolerance and acceptance and when your kid comes to you and questions how to reconcile their religious beliefs with the teachings at school, it become very challenging.

 

[MenInG]

Problem with Asian parents is that they are more worried about what others will say than about the actual issue itself!

 

[Stewie]

Problem with Asian parents is that they are more worried about what others will say than about the actual issue itself!

+1

We label it as a "religious" issue but the truth is its more of a cultural and societal issue, and you are more worried about your perception.

 

[khanz141]

The problem is not loving/caring/attraction towards another person of same sex in any religion, it is when it becomes sexual and that is what's not allowed. Sexual relationship can only exist after marriage and marriage is between a man and woman. So you can either be in a religion or out of it, not pick and choose which parts of religion you want to abide by because it suite or doesn't suite your choices.

Then the question also becomes, why is it illegal to marry own brother, son, father, whatever? Argument can be that it's their choice as well right? Or law of attraction applies there as well. Science doesn't say anything about sexuality between two gay brothers, does it?

The fact is that the more you go down that slope, the more you tumble down the wrong path.

 

[SalimBhai]

The problem is not loving/caring/attraction towards another person of same sex in any religion, it is when it becomes sexual and that is what's not allowed. Sexual relationship can only exist after marriage and marriage is between a man and woman. So you can either be in a religion or out of it, not pick and choose which parts of religion you want to abide by because it suite or doesn't suite your choices.

Then the question also becomes, why is it illegal to marry own brother, son, father, whatever? Argument can be that it's their choice as well right? Or law of attraction applies there as well. Science doesn't say anything about sexuality between two gay brothers, does it?

The fact is that the more you go down that slope, the more you tumble down the wrong path.

Where do you know people where siblings want to marry each other .is that a big movement ? Islam allows cousin marriages, science shows you should not due to a greater chance of genetic defects .

 

[IMMY69]

The problem is not loving/caring/attraction towards another person of same sex in any religion, it is when it becomes sexual and that is what's not allowed. Sexual relationship can only exist after marriage and marriage is between a man and woman. So you can either be in a religion or out of it, not pick and choose which parts of religion you want to abide by because it suite or doesn't suite your choices.

Then the question also becomes, why is it illegal to marry own brother, son, father, whatever? Argument can be that it's their choice as well right? Or law of attraction applies there as well. Science doesn't say anything about sexuality between two gay brothers, does it?

The fact is that the more you go down that slope, the more you tumble down the wrong path.

Well there is an any easy answer to your question.
That is the minimum legal age of sexual relations.
In the UK it is 16. That takes care of your pedaphilia argument.

 

[IMMY69]

^^^
Regarding other acts, they fall under incest

 

[Abel Reames]

So you can either be in a religion or out of it, not pick and choose which parts of religion you want to abide by because it suite or doesn't suite your choices.

But people do pick and choose. Major sins on the same level as homosexuality include, drinking alcohol, taking and giving interest, backbiting, missing prayers and zina/fornication, most people don't treat these at the same level of homosexuality. Picking and choosing.

 

[KingKhanWC]

The chap in the OP is a Hindu as he states. Not sure what his issue was as I've read on here on various occasions, homosexuality is not an issue in Hinduism?

 

[KingKhanWC]

But people do pick and choose. Major sins on the same level as homosexuality include, drinking alcohol, taking and giving interest, backbiting, missing prayers and zina/fornication, most people don't treat these at the same level of homosexuality. Picking and choosing.

The bloke in the OP is not a Muslim but a Hindu.

But we know talking about Islam is more interesting to some.

There is no such thing as homosexuality in Islam. The act of having intimate relations with the same sex is a sin, the thought is not. If you do , you have committed a major sin but it doesn't take you out of the fold of Islam, you are still a Muslim.

The excuse some make is they are born this way, which cannot be proven. Some may be born with weird tendencies or which are against the faith but they still have a choice to act out these desires.

 

[khanz141]

Well there is an any easy answer to your question.
That is the minimum legal age of sexual relations.
In the UK it is 16. That takes care of your pedaphilia argument.

so it's ok after that age then? And why is incest not allowed between same sex? Can't an argument be made that it's a sexual orientation? And if two partners choose to, they should have the right to make that decision?

And the reason I am asking about same sex only is because that takes away the argument of genetic disorder in offspring that could come from incest between make and female.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The chap in the OP is a Hindu as he states. Not sure what his issue was as I've read on here on various occasions, homosexuality is not an issue in Hinduism?

It's because Islam is probably the last bastion standing against homosexuality, and there is no flexibility. Muslims just see it as wrong, whereas other religions and beliefs have accepted it as a way of life. Hence these issues always come back to what Islam or Muslims think because these people themselves maybe have some conflict of emotion about it so they are looking for other views.

 

[KingKhanWC]

It's because Islam is probably the last bastion standing against homosexuality, and there is no flexibility. Muslims just see it as wrong, whereas other religions and beliefs have accepted it as a way of life. Hence these issues always come back to what Islam or Muslims think because these people themselves maybe have some conflict of emotion about it so they are looking for other views.

Cant disagree.

I was appreciative of you starting how to become a Hindu thread but Im still confused as to what Hinduism actually believes. With Islam there arent many grey areas, perhaps the reason why its the fastest growing religion in terms of conversions.

 

[Abel Reames]

In Arab culture you are only gay if you are the receptive partner.

Anyone familiar with Mukhannath (مُخَنَّث; plural mukhannathun (مُخَنَّثون); "effeminate ones", "ones who resemble women") was a term used in Classical Arabic and Islamic literature to describe gender-variant people, and it has typically referred to effeminate men or people with ambiguous sexual characteristics, who appeared feminine and functioned sexually or socially in roles typically carried out by women.[1][2][3][4] Mukhannathun, especially those in the city of Medina, are mentioned throughout the ḥadīth literature and in the works of many early Arabic and Islamic writers. During the Rashidun era and first half of the Umayyad era, they were strongly associated with music and entertainment.[1] During the Abbasid caliphate, the word itself was used as a descriptor for men employed as dancers, musicians, and/or comedians.[5]

In later eras, the term mukhannath was associated with the receptive partner in gay sexual practices, an association that has persisted into the modern day.[6] Khanith is a vernacular Arabic term used in some parts of the Arabian Peninsula to denote the gender role ascribed to males and occasionally intersex people who function sexually, and in some ways socially, as women. The term is closely related to the word mukhannath.

Didn't know Islam had more than three genders.

 

[Stewie]

In Arab culture you are only gay if you are the receptive partner.

Anyone familiar with Mukhannath (مُخَنَّث; plural mukhannathun (مُخَنَّثون); "effeminate ones", "ones who resemble women") was a term used in Classical Arabic and Islamic literature to describe gender-variant people, and it has typically referred to effeminate men or people with ambiguous sexual characteristics, who appeared feminine and functioned sexually or socially in roles typically carried out by women.[1][2][3][4] Mukhannathun, especially those in the city of Medina, are mentioned throughout the ḥadīth literature and in the works of many early Arabic and Islamic writers. During the Rashidun era and first half of the Umayyad era, they were strongly associated with music and entertainment.[1] During the Abbasid caliphate, the word itself was used as a descriptor for men employed as dancers, musicians, and/or comedians.[5]

In later eras, the term mukhannath was associated with the receptive partner in gay sexual practices, an association that has persisted into the modern day.[6] Khanith is a vernacular Arabic term used in some parts of the Arabian Peninsula to denote the gender role ascribed to males and occasionally intersex people who function sexually, and in some ways socially, as women. The term is closely related to the word mukhannath.

Didn't know Islam had more than three genders.

You are confusing a religion with race/society. Islam may have originated in Arab lands, but those lands themselves were a bastion of pagan worshippers and all sorts of other cultural norms that you cannot associate with Islam, the faith.

 

[KingKhanWC]

In Arab culture you are only gay if you are the receptive partner.

Anyone familiar with Mukhannath (مُخَنَّث; plural mukhannathun (مُخَنَّثون); "effeminate ones", "ones who resemble women") was a term used in Classical Arabic and Islamic literature to describe gender-variant people, and it has typically referred to effeminate men or people with ambiguous sexual characteristics, who appeared feminine and functioned sexually or socially in roles typically carried out by women.[1][2][3][4] Mukhannathun, especially those in the city of Medina, are mentioned throughout the ḥadīth literature and in the works of many early Arabic and Islamic writers. During the Rashidun era and first half of the Umayyad era, they were strongly associated with music and entertainment.[1] During the Abbasid caliphate, the word itself was used as a descriptor for men employed as dancers, musicians, and/or comedians.[5]

In later eras, the term mukhannath was associated with the receptive partner in gay sexual practices, an association that has persisted into the modern day.[6] Khanith is a vernacular Arabic term used in some parts of the Arabian Peninsula to denote the gender role ascribed to males and occasionally intersex people who function sexually, and in some ways socially, as women. The term is closely related to the word mukhannath.

Didn't know Islam had more than three genders.

Arab culture is not Islam, only around 20% of the worlds Muslims are Arabs.

Here is the most accepted view in Islam.

Regarding the two biological sexes and genders

The Fiqh Council of North America, June 2022

All praise is due to Allah, and may peace and salutations be upon the Messenger ﷺ.

In light of the recent discussions regarding the topic of transgenderism, the Fiqh Council of North America has been asked by many people regarding Islam’s stance on this issue.

Regarding the two biological sexes and genders
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The Quran is explicit that mankind has been divinely created from a male and a female (for example: “O Mankind! We created you from a male and a female…” [Ḥujurāt: 13]). It also states that mankind is divided into the two sexes of male and female (such as: “…and from the two of them, He spread forth multitudes of men and women” [Nisāʿ: 1], and “And the male is not like the female…” [Āl ʿImrān: 36]). The two sexes are equally human and equally noble: there is no spiritual superiority of either gender over the other, and both have equal access to divine blessings, grace, forgiveness, and Paradise.

There are simply too many verses in the Quran that refer to the two sexes for us to deny a fundamental gender binary, and there is no reference whatsoever in the Quran to anything other than this. It is an undeniable reality that numerous Islamic legal and social rulings differ between males and females; these rulings are found in all legal textbooks and run from the beginning chapters of purification all the way to ending chapters of inheritance. Many aspects of our Islamic Sharīʿah are inherently gender based, and one finds different rulings for men and women in almost all chapters of fiqh.

The contemporary distinction between biological sex and psychological or cultural gender might have some elements of truth to it (for example, it is correct that some aspects of traditional gender roles are culture based). However, to claim that “gender” in its entirety is a cultural construct bearing no essential relationship to biological sex is simply incorrect. The very DNA of the male and the female is different. It is precisely because males and females are different—physically, physiologically, biologically, emotionally, and in so many other ways—that the Sharīʿah clearly delineated the broad outlines of responsibilities of each gender.

Therefore, the contemporary claim that gender is an imaginary or cultural human construct, with no necessary link to biological sex, is untenable in light of Scripture, the Sharīʿah, biology, common sense, and the cumulative history of mankind.

The details of gender roles and the different tasks assigned to each gender in the Sharīʿah cannot be delineated in this short fatwa, nor is this the purpose of the fatwa. Some of these differences in gender rulings are obligatory (wājib), others are encouraged (mustaḥabb), and yet others are merely permissible (mubāḥ). Some are Sharīʿah based and immutable, while others relate to cultural contingencies and may be negotiated on a case-by-case basis.

The point here is that it is undeniable that each of the two sexes has a primary role for which Allah created that gender; hence the role of the husband is complementary to that of the wife, and the role of the mother overlaps with, yet is distinct from, the role of the father. Therefore, there is such a thing as objective “masculinity” and “femininity,” and each has both biological and cultural manifestations. Hence, each gender is encouraged to conform to its roles, even as some aspects are negotiable in accordance with person, time, and/or place. Those born biological males are recognized as men, while those born biologically female are likewise recognized as women.

Therefore, those who wish to abide by the Sharīʿah must identify their gender with their biological sex (this includes the issue of personal pronouns) and live by the rulings associated with that gender.

https://muslimmatters.org/2022/06/21/fatwa-regarding-transgenderism/

 

[Abel Reames]

Arab culture is not Islam, only around 20% of the worlds Muslims are Arabs.

Here is the most accepted view in Islam.



https://muslimmatters.org/2022/06/21/fatwa-regarding-transgenderism/

Well there is a third gender in Islam. Intersex. Known in Arabic literature as khunsa. Someone should tell the good folks at muslimmatters.

Of course you can ignore them if you wanna push binary gender.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Well there is a third gender in Islam. Intersex. Known in Arabic literature as khunsa. Someone should tell the good folks at muslimmatters.

Of course you can ignore them if you wanna push binary gender.

Id rather take their view than yours.

 

[Stewie]

Well there is a third gender in Islam. Intersex. Known in Arabic literature as khunsa. Someone should tell the good folks at muslimmatters.

Of course you can ignore them if you wanna push binary gender.

Once again, I am not sure what you are trying to get at but third gender/intersex/transgender, etc are all "naturally occurring, medically and biologically proven" phenomenon (some may say conditions), and i dont see what do you exactly mean by "Islam has a third gender". Islam is a religion, not a region, not a race, not a culture, not a biological species, etc.

 

[Abel Reames]

Id rather take their view than yours.

Sure you would. It agrees with your whims and desires. Picking and choosing. But there is no denying the intersex, the khunsa exist. I will leave you to it.

 

[Stewie]

Once again, I am not sure what you are trying to get at but third gender/intersex/transgender, etc are all "naturally occurring, medically and biologically proven" phenomenon (some may say conditions), and i dont see what do you exactly mean by "Islam has a third gender". Islam is a religion, not a region, not a race, not a culture, not a biological species, etc.

It is also not a sexual orientation, any of these conditions should not be confused with homosexuality.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Sounds like a choice then.

But when you are born, you are a Muslim. That is Islamic point of view.

 

[Abel Reames]

Once again, I am not sure what you are trying to get at but third gender/intersex/transgender, etc are all "naturally occurring, medically and biologically proven" phenomenon (some may say conditions), and i dont see what do you exactly mean by "Islam has a third gender". Islam is a religion, not a region, not a race, not a culture, not a biological species, etc.

KKWC's link to muslimmatters deny the existence a third gender. By Islam has a third gender I mean in Islamic writings there is mention of at least four genders.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Arab culture is not Islam, only around 20% of the worlds Muslims are Arabs.

Here is the most accepted view in Islam.



https://muslimmatters.org/2022/06/21/fatwa-regarding-transgenderism/

Islam is Arab culture. You pray in Arabic, your names are Arabic. Even the language you use has tons of Arab words in it.

 

[Stewie]

KKWC's link to muslimmatters deny the existence a third gender. By Islam has a third gender I mean in Islamic writings there is mention of at least four genders.

there are tons of websites claiming to be authentic, you cannot trust them. This could be one of those.

 

[Champ_Pal]

KKWC's link to muslimmatters deny the existence a third gender. By Islam has a third gender I mean in Islamic writings there is mention of at least four genders.

https://quran.com/42/11?translations=102,101,22,20,95,85,84,19,18,17

Quran says all living things are made in pairs. So only 2 sexes exist.

 

[Stewie]

Islam is Arab culture. You pray in Arabic, your names are Arabic. Even the language you use has tons of Arab words in it.

Once again, what part of "religion and culture based on region/ethnicity are apples and oranges" dont people understand? Lots of Hindus in Nepal, Malaysia, Indonesia, are they all part of Indian culture? Thats called cultural misappropriation if you are claiming they are, you are trying to take credit of their culture just because they practice the same faith as you.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Once again, what part of "religion and culture based on region/ethnicity are apples and oranges" dont people understand? Lots of Hindus in Nepal, Malaysia, Indonesia, are they all part of Indian culture? Thats called cultural misappropriation if you are claiming they are, you are trying to take credit of their culture just because they practice the same faith as you.

If you follow the religion and culture of a particular land, then you are part of their culture. At least you are aping them.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Sure you would. It agrees with your whims and desires. Picking and choosing. But there is no denying the intersex, the khunsa exist. I will leave you to it.

Islam is Arab culture. You pray in Arabic, your names are Arabic. Even the language you use has tons of Arab words in it.

So now non-Muslims who are not fans of Islam(being kind) want to educate Muslims on their own faith.

Islam is clear as explained by the Fiqh council.

Only Arabic language not the culture. Pakistanis speak a lot of words which are similar, same in Hindi. Does this mean Islam is also Hindu/Indian culture? lol.

 

[Champ_Pal]

So now non-Muslims who are not fans of Islam(being kind) want to educate Muslims on their own faith.

Islam is clear as explained by the Fiqh council.

Only Arabic language not the culture. Pakistanis speak a lot of words which are similar, same in Hindi. Does this mean Islam is also Hindu/Indian culture? lol.

The words in Sanskrit are words from your original language. That makes you part of subcontinent Hindustan.

Arabic names that Muslims have around the world have existed well before Islam came into this world. The pilgrimage to Kabah and doing Tawaf around it, kissing the Hizr-e-aswad also existed before Islam. It is Nabatean Arab culture.

 

[KingKhanWC]

The words in Sanskrit are words from your original language. That makes you part of subcontinent Hindustan.

Arabic names that Muslims have around the world have existed well before Islam came into this world. The pilgrimage to Kabah and doing Tawaf around it, kissing the Hizr-e-aswad also existed before Islam. It is Nabatean Arab culture.

You are confusing yourself.

Pakistanis are part of the land area but have their own culture, they are not Hindu culture.

Kaaba was first made by the first human on Earth and later constructed by Abaraham (pbuh). There is no culture in Islam, its a way of life which actually negates most cultural practices.

 

[Stewie]

If you follow the religion and culture of a particular land, then you are part of their culture. At least you are aping them.

That might be true of Hinduism but it does not apply to Abrahamic faiths. Christianity originated in the middle east, Jesus was originally a Jew, does that mean all the Western World is aping middle eastern culture? Most WESTERN Countries practice christianity. How about Christians in the far east?

You seem to be extremely ill informed and poorly educated on these matters, no offense.

 

[Technics 1210]

You are confusing yourself.

Pakistanis are part of the land area but have their own culture, they are not Hindu culture.

Kaaba was first made by the first human on Earth and later constructed by Abaraham (pbuh). There is no culture in Islam, its a way of life which actually negates most cultural practices.

Culture and religion are clearly separate subjects, even though the Qur'an set to rectify the culture at the time. Most people fail to realise, for example, the practice of female babies being killed at birth/buried alive, BEFORE the revelation of the Qur'an. This is a clear distinction between what was culture, and what the Qur'an represents and set out to rectify.

However as we have seen, read, and heard, Hinduism is mainly a fusion of both culture and religion, so I can understand the frustration and lack of understanding from our Hindu friends, even though practices like Sati are ingrained within Hinduism.

 

[Stewie]

The bottom line is that Homosexuality remains a taboo subject. Hinduism can claim Homosexuality is permitted within the layers of Hindu doctrines, but if it were, it begs the question why a Hindu Father has to speak up about his daughter being gay, to the media.

I would be interested to know what the reaction of the OP would be on a pro Indian forum, because it is obvious Islam is yet again dragged into the conversation on a pro Pakistani forum despite the story in the OP is one of a Hindu father. It is after all an easy route out for those who oppose discipline and values - the smoke and mirrors game!

Another example of how religion (as faith) and culture (as societal norms) are two entirely separate things, becaue Hinduism may teach you all the flexibility and acceptance in the world but culturally, Indians/Hindus are still very much rigid in the terms of sexual orientation and the transgender issue. Most of them still view it as taboo, even if their religion teaches them to be receptive to such matters.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Culture and religion are clearly separate subjects, even though the Qur'an set to rectify the culture at the time. Most people fail to realise, for example, the practice of female babies being killed at birth/buried alive, BEFORE the revelation of the Qur'an. This is a clear distinction between what was culture, and what the Qur'an represents and set out to rectify.

However as we have seen, read, and heard, Hinduism is mainly a fusion of both culture and religion, so I can understand the frustration and lack of understanding from our Hindu friends, even though practices like Sati are ingrained within Hinduism.

Absolutely! Islam came to weed out the bad practices of culture esp tribalism.

Agree, in Hinduism it seems almost anything is acceptable. So not sure why this chap who says he's a Kashmiri Pandit would even address this issue?

 

[MenInG]

Keep some obvious anti-Islam agendas off this thread.

 

[Stewie]

Keep some obvious anti-Islam agendas off this thread.

It is not just anti Islam but I feel there is a clear anti Pakistan cultural theme here too. Maybe it’s borne of ignorance but you can clearly sense it.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Cant disagree.

I was appreciative of you starting how to become a Hindu thread but Im still confused as to what Hinduism actually believes. With Islam there arent many grey areas, perhaps the reason why its the fastest growing religion in terms of conversions.

It's worth bearing in mind what I said in the post you responded to:

It's because Islam is probably the last bastion standing against homosexuality, and there is no flexibility. Muslims just see it as wrong, whereas other religions and beliefs have accepted it as a way of life. Hence these issues always come back to what Islam or Muslims think because these people themselves maybe have some conflict of emotion about it so they are looking for other views.


As you can see in the subsequent replies since then, all non-Muslim posters are bringing this back to Islam even though the OP is a Hindu, and he did not specify he was looking only for an answer from Islam.

This tells us that these guys are either looking to bait Muslims, or perhaps feel some deep conflicts of emotion themselves about this topic. Perhaps they really are looking for a clear answer and need the answer that Islam provides?

 

[SalimBhai]

It's worth bearing in mind what I said in the post you responded to:

It's because Islam is probably the last bastion standing against homosexuality, and there is no flexibility. Muslims just see it as wrong, whereas other religions and beliefs have accepted it as a way of life. Hence these issues always come back to what Islam or Muslims think because these people themselves maybe have some conflict of emotion about it so they are looking for other views.


As you can see in the subsequent replies since then, all non-Muslim posters are bringing this back to Islam even though the OP is a Hindu, and he did not specify he was looking only for an answer from Islam.

This tells us that these guys are either looking to bait Muslims, or perhaps feel some deep conflicts of emotion themselves about this topic. Perhaps they really are looking for a clear answer and need the answer that Islam provides?

Or it could be that posters are defending being anti gay by using Islam. Saying Islam does not allow it so I will not allow it.

 

[KingKhanWC]

It's worth bearing in mind what I said in the post you responded to:

It's because Islam is probably the last bastion standing against homosexuality, and there is no flexibility. Muslims just see it as wrong, whereas other religions and beliefs have accepted it as a way of life. Hence these issues always come back to what Islam or Muslims think because these people themselves maybe have some conflict of emotion about it so they are looking for other views.


As you can see in the subsequent replies since then, all non-Muslim posters are bringing this back to Islam even though the OP is a Hindu, and he did not specify he was looking only for an answer from Islam.

This tells us that these guys are either looking to bait Muslims, or perhaps feel some deep conflicts of emotion themselves about this topic. Perhaps they really are looking for a clear answer and need the answer that Islam provides?

I think deep down it is this.

Islam is very clear on every subject, whether one agrees or not, the rulings are a not ambiguous.

Living in the UK, I work and interact with gay people, there is no issue. When it comes to your own children, it would be disappointing to the extent , I wouldnt be as close but would still ensure they are safe and have all they need.

 

[Stewie]

Or it could be that posters are defending being anti gay by using Islam. Saying Islam does not allow it so I will not allow it.

I don’t blame them because Islam does consider homosexuality haram. Does that mean Islam is anti gay? I mean it doesn’t say lynch and burn gays. But it acknowledges they engage in sinful activities.

Personally speaking, I believe sexual orientation is not a choice for all. It may be governed by certain biological factors but it’s usually out of the control of individuals. Those claiming here it’s all a matter of choice are wrong. It’s not.

 

[KingKhanWC]

There is no evidence anyone is born to only desire their own sex.

There is no evidence anyone is born to only desire eating chocolate cake.

Many if not most men who are 'gay' have been with females too.

 

[Abel Reames]

I don’t blame them because Islam does consider homosexuality haram.

Why don't the same people expend the same energy attacking other major sins like drinking alcohol, receiving or giving interest, backbiting, missing prayers and committing zina/fornication. If they were not hypocritical (picking and choosing) or homophobic they would be treat these as equally as sinful. But they don't.

 

[ElRaja]

tough choice, i dont understand it as ive never felt it, must be tough on someone, i don't think someone would willingly make that choice knowing how u are setting yourself up for a lot of hardships in life.

if it was my hypothetical kid, if im being totally honest it would pbly affect things, maybe its my own hypocrisy.

 

[Stewie]

There is no evidence anyone is born to only desire their own sex.

There is no evidence anyone is born to only desire eating chocolate cake.

Many if not most men who are 'gay' have been with females too.

So sexuality is fluid? You can picture yourself with a man?

I do not agree with any of that.

 

[Stewie]

Why don't the same people expend the same energy attacking other major sins like drinking alcohol, receiving or giving interest, backbiting, missing prayers and committing zina/fornication. If they were not hypocritical (picking and choosing) or homophobic they would be treat these as equally as sinful. But they don't.

That’s a very subjective statement, I don’t think you have any means to prove it. I have seen people flip their kid when they find out their kid was out drinking or with a girl/guy or missed their prayers… the reaction is equally severe as opposition to homosexuality.

 

[Champ_Pal]

That might be true of Hinduism but it does not apply to Abrahamic faiths. Christianity originated in the middle east, Jesus was originally a Jew, does that mean all the Western World is aping middle eastern culture? Most WESTERN Countries practice christianity. How about Christians in the far east?

You seem to be extremely ill informed and poorly educated on these matters, no offense.

Jesus was from the land of Israel. But what Christianity today is because of the Roman empire. It was Europeanized to the core. They made Jesus with blonde hair and blue eyes. So in effect, they were simply following the Roman culture which is European anyway. People also did not change their names to Jewish ones. The Jewish names that they have are fully Europeanized. They do not speak any Semitic language either or use words from Middle East.

No one apes and copies the Arabs as much as Muslims around the world. Half of Muslim countries around the world speak fully Arabic or their local language heavily mixed with Arabic. Native languages got decimated.

 

[Stewie]

Jesus was from the land of Israel. But what Christianity today is because of the Roman empire. It was Europeanized to the core. They made Jesus with blonde hair and blue eyes. So in effect, they were simply following the Roman culture which is European anyway. People also did not change their names to Jewish ones. The Jewish names that they have are fully Europeanized. They do not speak any Semitic language either or use words from Middle East.

No one apes and copies the Arabs as much as Muslims around the world. Half of Muslim countries around the world speak fully Arabic or their local language heavily mixed with Arabic. Native languages got decimated.

You do realize there was no Urdu or Hindi (which is a derivative of Urdu) before the conquerors from the west invaded India? With them they brought a mix of languages. Look up the origins of Urdu. It’s a Turkish word which means “lashkari zuban”. Basically the armies of these conquerors had people across the arab/Persian/turkic areas and their intermingling resulted in Urdu. Hindi is just a name for Urdu with more addition of Sanskrit words.

Your hatred of Muslims and Pakistanis seem to be seeping through in your statement but I hope you are following where I am getting at. The language even you speak or your countrymen speak has its basis in multiculturalism. Based on our leaning we added more Persian/Arabic words and you guys added Sanskrit.

But even if we put that aspect of our origins aside. What is so bad about following a particular language? The truth is if you understand the language of the original text of an old book, you will better understand the message. Muslims always lay emphasis on learning Arabic because our faith demands we pray in Arabic. I have heard European adherents of Hinduism chant “hari om” so what’s really bad about it?

The point you made about Catholicism, is exactly the point of Muslims. The message of Christ has been diluted, mutated, subverted due to so many impurities. Bible was not in English originally, I hope you know that. It was not even in Latin. It was in Aramaic. The message got lost through translation. We have managed to preserve it by sticking to the Arabic language.

I can go on and on and tear your post apart there is much to dissect there, I could have a field day.. unfortunately it’s nearly Iftar time.