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Nawaz Sharif's GT Road March

Bewal Express said:
So the doubling the external debt is not big issue because these wonderful democrats did it, it wont be long before you say that corruption and money laundering isnt a big issue.
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The debt in and off itself would not have been an issue had it been invested in remunerative enterprises. The fact that they stole and misused it is but it still doesn't hold a candle to the long term damage the China FTA did. No one's innocent here, some are just more guilty. We seem unable to agree on who is which.
 
Eagle_Eye said:
No. The only piece I asked for were the academic papers you had read. And you are not forthcoming, even to the point that you cannot remember who wrote them. Which I find hard to believe considering how they would have validated your views.
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Again, I don't keep records and bookmarks of everything I read considering how much of it there is. That's neither here nor there though. I do recall recommending a book from Ayesha Siddiqa called Military Inc that detailed much of what you seek but unfortunately, her opposition to the military means she's an 'Indian agent' and therefore jot credible enough for your highness' liking. That seems to be the theme with you. Ask for evidence, when presented with it, dismiss it because you don't like the source. You seemed to have similar issues with Arundhati Roy, the last person who can be accused of being pro India or anti Pakistan.
 
WebGuru said:
Jehlum main dinner or nashta nae tha inka? :13:
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Never been more proud of my home city. It's still a PMLN stronghold, and there's a permanent stench of them in those quarters, aside from that strange permanent stench of Jhelum which takes about 6 weeks to get used to, but finally I can see light at the end of the tunnel.
 
Asim_khan said:
Never been more proud of my home city. It's still a PMLN stronghold, and there's a permanent stench of them in those quarters, aside from that strange permanent stench of Jhelum which takes about 6 weeks to get used to, but finally I can see light at the end of the tunnel.
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can it be change till next election??
 
DW44 said:
What neo liberal press, Pakistani media is overwhelmingly right leaning and the biggest media outlet, Bol, is essentially an extension of the army's public relations arm. That woman who's supposedly being championed by the supposed neo liberal press is public enemy number one in Pakistan and has been for decades. This is a country where photographs of her with Bal Thakray from a UN mandated fact finding mission on religious freedom in India were presented as proof that the two were in cahoots. The other gentleman you refer to is also similarly reviled and whatever his political associations may be, his views on the military are spot on.
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Despite being popularly reviled, they're championed in the neo liberal press, who at the same time also champion an ex PM, who in your own words, is beyond filth. They both defend this same bufoon. So despite all this hate, they've both made great careers for themselves, and one of them has even made billions at the expense of the tax payer. Being reviled by the majority of the country seems to do wonders for peoples careers and bank balances. And as for her visits to Bal Thackery and Modi, she seemed to be enjoying herself massively, and playing her part, fair dos' to her, she looked more into it than most the girls I know in Southall and Leicester.



Since you're googling, please also google Saleem Shehzad, Waqar Goraya and Salman Haider too. Apparently every Pakistani opposed to the army's criminal activities is in some way connected to India or is a blasphemer.
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Now, this is worth googling, however the last 2 are released, and the first one there is allegations only. But strengthens your case a little more than a 24 year old lady being paid 20lakh indian rupees to defend and champion an Indian crossing the Afghan border into Pakistan.
 
DRsohail said:
can it be change till next election??
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The smell or the peoples love for PMNL? The smell, no chance. PMNL, I live in hope, but honestly the people are so jaahil, I have relatives who've fainted due to the intense heat/load shedding, who refuse to blame the PMLN for it, and the less said about the state of the roads the better. Mohabbut andhi hoti hai.
 
Asim_khan said:
Never been more proud of my home city. It's still a PMLN stronghold, and there's a permanent stench of them in those quarters, aside from that strange permanent stench of Jhelum which takes about 6 weeks to get used to, but finally I can see light at the end of the tunnel.
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I personally think Jehlum and Attock from north Punjab are those most sayasi tor per thande cities people do come out to vote there but they are not that much interested in jalsas and rallies :yk
 
I just heard there is a notification that drone camera coverage is going banned from tomorrow? I guess drone cams really exposed their rally :))
 
DW44 said:
The debt in and off itself would not have been an issue had it been invested in remunerative enterprises. The fact that they stole and misused it is but it still doesn't hold a candle to the long term damage the China FTA did. No one's innocent here, some are just more guilty. We seem unable to agree on who is which.
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So $50bn by politicians is worse than the Chinese deal. Can you give stats as to the effects of the Chinese deal, and dont you think that would have come irrespective of who was in power.
 
lol these guys are pendus, they always end up exposing themselves cause of their stupidity
 
Asim_khan said:
The smell or the peoples love for PMNL? The smell, no chance. PMNL, I live in hope, but honestly the people are so jaahil, I have relatives who've fainted due to the intense heat/load shedding, who refuse to blame the PMLN for it, and the less said about the state of the roads the better. Mohabbut andhi hoti hai.
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Fawad Ch on PTI ticket managed around 75,000 votes on a NA seat in by election last year in Jehlum and the ruling party PMLN with all the machinery and resources got 82,000 votes. So there is hope in at least 1 out of 2 MNA seats of Jehlum.
 
WebGuru said:
I just heard there is a notification that drone camera coverage is going banned from tomorrow? I guess drone cams really exposed their rally :))
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They are still in pindi and verdict is out that this show is flop...
:)

There is live stream by geo, does not seem like a flop show...
Last thing we should trust is the media...they show what they prefer.
 
Black Zero said:
They are still in pindi and verdict is out that this show is flop...
:)

There is live stream by geo, does not seem like a flop show...
Last thing we should trust is the media...they show what they prefer.
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Sentence in red answers the sentence in blue. You are welcome.
 
Apart from Geo news, every channel reporter on target of Pml N supporters. Latest report Pml N supporters pelted stones on Samaa news reporter. Height attrocity.
 
Black Zero said:
They are still in pindi and verdict is out that this show is flop...
:)

There is live stream by geo, does not seem like a flop show...
Last thing we should trust is the media...they show what they prefer.
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Ruling Punjab from 9 years,
Federal Govt from 4 years,
Heading the local govt in Rawalpindi and Islamabad,
Got 4 MNAs and several MPAs and multiple Senators in Rawalpindi,
10 out of 14 MNA from this region (North Punjab),
All the govt resources in hand,
and this is all you got to show on first day of the rally?

As i said earlier they should start it from Gujranwala they stand a far better chance there...You will see the difference when they reach Gujranwala.
 
coooolali said:
Apart from Geo news, every channel reporter on target of Pml N supporters. Latest report Pml N supporters pelted stones on Samaa news reporter. Height attrocity.
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Samaa, ARY, 92News, 24News and BOL all were attacked by PMLN supporters today. PTI is always blamed for attacks on Geo during dherna day but today nobody is talking about how almost every majory channel was attacked by PMLN goons.
 
Syed1 said:
Sentence in red answers the sentence in blue. You are welcome.
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Of course geo is the main culprit and the trend setter...
I recall, when media house would set the deadline for zardari government.
And how they ridicule IK's valid stance against rigging.

On a long term, you cannot fix one wrong with another.
 
BOL news reporter Safdar Klasra attacked by Noonie goons and his only sin was he was making a video of an ambulance stuck in the traffic.

DGyttg6XgAAqgs3.jpg:small
 
Why Ch Nisar wasn't there today? or he is waiting in Rawat with another rally :13:
 
WebGuru said:
Ruling Punjab from 9 years,
Federal Govt from 4 years,
Heading the local govt in Rawalpindi and Islamabad,
Got 4 MNAs and several MPAs and multiple Senators in Rawalpindi,
10 out of 14 MNA from this region (North Punjab),
All the govt resources in hand,
and this is all you got to show on first day of the rally?

As i said earlier they should start it from Gujranwala they stand a far better chance there...You will see the difference when they reach Gujranwala.
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NS is planning to follow IK's strategy as NS will visit all over Punjab. This would not hurt PMLN and will surely secure few thousand votes for pmln in every constituency.

This DQ could be the best thing happened to this dynasty during last 8 years.
 
In this political show let's not forget the sacrifice of Major Ali Salman & 3 other jawans. They embraced Shahadat fighting terrorism today in DIR.

DGyE_IOW0AAtJvo.jpg:small
 
Black Zero said:
NS is planning to follow IK's strategy as NS will visit all over Punjab. This would not hurt PMLN and will surely secure few thousand votes for pmln in every constituency.

This DQ could be the best thing happened to this dynasty during last 8 years.
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NS need practice he is away from street politics from a long time let's see if he got the energy of IK to hold jalsas and rallies every other week.
 
Bewal Express said:
This guy sacrificed nothing, its NS thats sacrificed everything.
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He was also probably in on the deep state sazish against the supreme leader, clean as a whistle Nawaz Sharif.


#DesiLiberalLogic




Jokes apart,

inna lillahi wa inna illahi raj'ioon
May Allah grant this gentleman the highest standard in Jana'ah

I hope all these desi liberal show as many cajunas as these army jawans and put money where their mouth is rather than hiding behind a keyboard.
 
Bewal Express said:
So $50bn by politicians is worse than the Chinese deal. Can you give stats as to the effects of the Chinese deal, and dont you think that would have come irrespective of who was in power.
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No, the Chinese deal is worse. You need at least some understanding of development economics to understand why though. Basically, poor countries develop through industrialization. With the exception of Hong Kong, which is a special case in too many ways to list, no country has achieved development through a different path, it has always been variations of the same formula. That formula requires that during the early stages of industrialization, local manufacturers be heavily protected despite the inefficiencies such a move would inevitably create (something China still does, Korea and Taiwan did before them, the Japanese before that, the Americans in the late 1800s and the Brits who started it all in the 1600s). When you sign a free trade agreement with a country that has such a massive comparative advantage over you in manufacturing at such an early stage of your development, before the industrialization process has even started, you're essentially shutting off the only avenue through which you can really develop so yes, in the long run, $50 billion is chump change compared to the damage the China FTA did. It basically took away our ability to develop a manufacturing sector and that's pretty much the only known path to economic development with an actual track record as opposed to just theory.
 
^To add to that, as far as the question of whether or not it would have passed regardless is concerned, it's possible but unlikely. Civilians are subject to pressures that dictators aren't and if a civilian tried to sign such an agreement, given the protectionist sentiment that already exists in Pakistan, they could have ended up getting skewered by the business community, the industrialists in particular. Someone like Musharraf doesn't have to worry about that. This is one of those cases where corruption, in the form of crony capitalism, would have actually helped us out in the long run.
 
Mian sahab ne aaj raat GT road waale 100 MNAs ki achi class leni he.
 
WebGuru said:
Samaa, ARY, 92News, 24News and BOL all were attacked by PMLN supporters today. PTI is always blamed for attacks on Geo during dherna day but today nobody is talking about how almost every majory channel was attacked by PMLN goons.
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Jamhooriyat pasand Pml N had been truly exposed and established themselves as Danda Baaradarr Party.
 
coooolali said:
Jamhooriyat pasand Pml N had been truly exposed and established themselves as Danda Baaradarr Party.
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We all know their history it's just that they hide under this masoomyat wala mask.
 
First time in the history of politics a sitting government organizing a protest on state expense and yet to decide who the protest is against :13:

army? sc? opposition?
 
Syed1 said:
It is all just sazish by big bad army.
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A PMLN leader from Punjab claimed today they are being stopped from joining the rally :D someone should ask him who is ruling Punjab and Pakistan?
 
[MENTION=138254]Syed1[/MENTION] [MENTION=27412]coooolali[/MENTION] halal dance?

DGzlB00XcAE7Ud0.jpg:small
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="ur" dir="rtl">ممتاز قادری کےجنازےکی تصویریں شیئر کرنےوالےن لیگیوں کا کہنا ہے..."جنازه جنازه ہوتاممتاز قادری کا ہو یا نوازشریف کا"</p>— Aamir Liaquat Husain (@AamirLiaquat) <a href="https://twitter.com/AamirLiaquat/status/895298605195591680">August 9, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
Asim_khan said:
The smell or the peoples love for PMNL? The smell, no chance. PMNL, I live in hope, but honestly the people are so jaahil, I have relatives who've fainted due to the intense heat/load shedding, who refuse to blame the PMLN for it, and the less said about the state of the roads the better. Mohabbut andhi hoti hai.
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then i can safely say tht we kpk people are more democratic....
 
WebGuru said:
Amir Liaqat and his shirts these days :))

DGzjV3TXgAAwsh6.jpg:large
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He absolutely kills it with these t-shirts, if I wasn't in danger of getting attacked by noora goons, I'd have this and the what the font one &#55357;&#56834;
 
Pomi Butt, deputy mayor of Gujranwala, has wads of money thrown at PMLN supporters.

<blockquote class="twitter-video" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/GTRoadRAlly?src=hash">#GTRoadRAlly</a>: <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/PomiButt?src=hash">#PomiButt</a>, deputy mayor of <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Gujranwala?src=hash">#Gujranwala</a>, has wads of money thrown at his supporters. <a href="https://t.co/EV7jmN8cZQ">pic.twitter.com/EV7jmN8cZQ</a></p>— SAMAA TV (@SAMAATV) <a href="https://twitter.com/SAMAATV/status/895348786846994442">August 9, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
Asim_khan said:
He absolutely kills it with these t-shirts, if I wasn't in danger of getting attacked by noora goons, I'd have this and the what the font one ��
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Try wearing it in some PTI constituency :yk
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The disarray in the PML-N is plain to see. Four more ministers to be inducted whilst the party mobilises street power on GT Road. Ugh.</p>— Mosharraf Zaidi (@mosharrafzaidi) <a href="https://twitter.com/mosharrafzaidi/status/895352758601224193">August 9, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
WebGuru said:
Pomi Butt, deputy mayor of Gujranwala, has wads of money thrown at PMLN supporters.

<blockquote class="twitter-video" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/GTRoadRAlly?src=hash">#GTRoadRAlly</a>: <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/PomiButt?src=hash">#PomiButt</a>, deputy mayor of <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Gujranwala?src=hash">#Gujranwala</a>, has wads of money thrown at his supporters. <a href="https://t.co/EV7jmN8cZQ">pic.twitter.com/EV7jmN8cZQ</a></p>— SAMAA TV (@SAMAATV) <a href="https://twitter.com/SAMAATV/status/895348786846994442">August 9, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
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That's the saddest thing I've seen since I saw a man shovel up his dogs mess. Treating their followers like strippers
 
WebGuru said:
[MENTION=138254]Syed1[/MENTION] [MENTION=27412]coooolali[/MENTION] halal dance?

DGzlB00XcAE7Ud0.jpg:small
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Lol. Pml N has lost completely. Probably she is trying to say tumkay lagana just like Talal did in rally :)))
 
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DW44 said:
No, the Chinese deal is worse. You need at least some understanding of development economics to understand why though. Basically, poor countries develop through industrialization. With the exception of Hong Kong, which is a special case in too many ways to list, no country has achieved development through a different path, it has always been variations of the same formula. That formula requires that during the early stages of industrialization, local manufacturers be heavily protected despite the inefficiencies such a move would inevitably create (something China still does, Korea and Taiwan did before them, the Japanese before that, the Americans in the late 1800s and the Brits who started it all in the 1600s). When you sign a free trade agreement with a country that has such a massive comparative advantage over you in manufacturing at such an early stage of your development, before the industrialization process has even started, you're essentially shutting off the only avenue through which you can really develop so yes, in the long run, $50 billion is chump change compared to the damage the China FTA did. It basically took away our ability to develop a manufacturing sector and that's pretty much the only known path to economic development with an actual track record as opposed to just theory.
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I didnt ask for a lecture in economics from you, i asked you to give some concrete facts about your assertion that Industry has been hurt. Please provide facts and figures and also you didnt answer my question as to whether like CPEC, this would have been done by whoever was in power.
 
DW44 said:
They are relative to the military. Between them and the military, you know just as well as I do which way the balance of power is skewed and to what extent. That's not to say they're good people in their own rights, they're still essentially crooks but my point is that so are the military and bigger ones at that. If they weren't, they'd have spent the money as you suggested but then the military has ruled us for far longer, did they spend that way? There's a reason the military is the largest corporate entity in the country.



They're up there but not the biggest. For a country at our level of development, the economy is the biggest issue and industrialization should be priority number one. During the copy paste growth stage, which is where it starts and which we're yet to enter, you spend the bare minimum on education while devoting every resource to expanding industrial capacity and setting up supporting infrastructure. Anyway, I digress but my point is that spending money on education will bring about very little visible improvement without first developing the relevant economic sectors. Education only starts becoming a factor when you enter the next phase of development, innovation led growth which we're light years away from. Even the likes of Turkey and Malaysia aren't there yet.

For us specifically, there are other issues that take precedence, security and terrorism chief among them, and on that front the military has a pretty chequered record with the exception of action against TTP who've only part of the problem.
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My point was that the civilians should be focused on education and health. They have billions to spend on both, the army is not stopping them spending money announced in our budget on health and education. They don't spend any because they loot it.

Terrorism is now more or less under control, or atleast not at the destructive level it was but that's another issue. What I am saying is despite the military controlling most policies the civilians have done absolutely nothing in the policies they CAN control. And for a third-world nation education and health care is right up there.
 
Pakpak said:
My point was that the civilians should be focused on education and health. They have billions to spend on both, the army is not stopping them spending money announced in our budget on health and education. They don't spend any because they loot it.

Terrorism is now more or less under control, or atleast not at the destructive level it was but that's another issue. What I am saying is despite the military controlling most policies the civilians have done absolutely nothing in the policies they CAN control. And for a third-world nation education and health care is right up there.
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But its the armies fault that NS and AZ and their ilk steal from the people they are elected to represent. Its the armies fault that the hospitals they build are so bad that they have to run to London to get checked even for minor ailments, its the armies fault that NS and most senior politicians became marketing directors for companies in Dubai.
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">U can spend your whole life in the container but Nawaz Sharif will NOT resign.</p>— Maryam Nawaz Sharif (@MaryamNSharif) <a href="https://twitter.com/MaryamNSharif/status/502126132179656704">August 20, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

The shoe is on the other foot...
 
Bewal Express said:
I didnt ask for a lecture in economics from you, i asked you to give some concrete facts about your assertion that Industry has been hurt. Please provide facts and figures and also you didnt answer my question as to whether like CPEC, this would have been done by whoever was in power.
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I don't buy his logic that army is the real culprit for Pakistan's mess. Because in the first place it is the incompetency of politicians which brings army to the fore.
But he is right about protectionism, nascent economies need protectionist policies ; which means higher tariffs and trade barriers to help local industry grow against an already advanced industry. Although this theory still holds but it has lost some of its importance, particularly in the last couple of decades because economic growth in countries like India, Vietnam, Brazil and even China owes a lot to FDI. Because Chinese technology itself is not yet that efficient i don't believe it has impacted over economy that much so far but it will have consequences in the near future as the chasm between two economies widens.
 
Bewal Express said:
I didnt ask for a lecture in economics from you, i asked you to give some concrete facts about your assertion that Industry has been hurt. Please provide facts and figures and also you didnt answer my question as to whether like CPEC, this would have been done by whoever was in power.
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Yes, well the lecture is relevant to the discussion and without at least understanding the basics and the implications various government actions have for long and short term economic prospects, why are you even having this debate? Here's some good starting points, I'm sure you can look up more since it's all in the public domain:

https://www.dawn.com/news/1309548
https://www.dawn.com/news/1173993
http://herald.dawn.com/news/1153217
https://tribune.com.pk/story/1073930/more-protection-chinese-imports-hurt-pakistans-men-of-steel/
https://www.dawn.com/news/1340443
https://tribune.com.pk/story/1237534/cpec-project-nascent-industries-afraid-big-chinese-firms/
 
it is a huge rally but the media is not covering it

pro pti agenda
 
Pakpak said:
My point was that the civilians should be focused on education and health. They have billions to spend on both, the army is not stopping them spending money announced in our budget on health and education. They don't spend any because they loot it.

Terrorism is now more or less under control, or atleast not at the destructive level it was but that's another issue. What I am saying is despite the military controlling most policies the civilians have done absolutely nothing in the policies they CAN control. And for a third-world nation education and health care is right up there.
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They should be but their corruption or incompetence does not justify the military's actions. There are ways to hold them accountable without involving the military and those ways have clearly had success. Can the military be held similarly accountable for their misdeeds? Can Musharraf be held accountable the way Nawaz was? That's the difference between the two. If one mucks around, there is now precedent for their being repercussions to that. The military still gets to run around completely free from any fear of consequences to any illegal or unethical activites they may commit. A lot of their worst crimes also get to fly under the radar due to media censorship so unlike, say, Nawaz or Zardari, we're not even sure of the full extent of their illegal activities. Can you honestly say they can be held accountable for that? For starters, lets go with the DHA Islamabad land grab issue. How many people here even know about it?

I wouldn't say terrorism is under control but yes, it's much better now and that's because only two groups, TTP and LeJ, accounted for the vast majority of terrorist attacks in Pakistan since 9/11. The military rightly gets credit for pretty much taking out one of those groups but does it similarly get held accountable for supporting the other one?

My point isn't that civilians are inherently better people, it's that we have means to deal with them which we don't with the military which is why they get away with so much more.
 
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Leo23 said:
it is a huge rally but the media is not covering it

pro pti agenda
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Okay, people were getting bored with consistency in these threads.

Why would so many channels support PTI at the expense of PML N who dole out a lot of money in the shape of advertisements, Tax waivers, favors and lifafas?
 
Syed1 said:
He was also probably in on the deep state sazish against the supreme leader, clean as a whistle Nawaz Sharif.


#DesiLiberalLogic




Jokes apart,

inna lillahi wa inna illahi raj'ioon
May Allah grant this gentleman the highest standard in Jana'ah

I hope all these desi liberal show as many cajunas as these army jawans and put money where their mouth is rather than hiding behind a keyboard.
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In our attempt to score points, lets also not forget the thousands, particularly Hazaras in Quetta, who have been killed by Lashkar e Jhangvi and since not forgetting stuff seems to be the theme, lets also not forget who props Lashkar e Jhangvi up. Their lives were not less valuable than any jawan's and just because they're protecting us against one evil doesn't absolve them of responsibility for unleashing a similar evil on us because this one helps them out in one of their many wars and proxy wars.
 
waqar goraya said:
Okay, people were getting bored with consistency in these threads.

Why would so many channels support PTI at the expense of PML N who dole out a lot of money in the shape of advertisements, Tax waivers, favors and lifafas?
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establishment controls the media and they are with imran now
 
DW44 said:
They should be but their corruption or incompetence does not justify the military's actions. There are ways to hold them accountable without involving the military and those ways have clearly had success. Can the military be held similarly accountable for their misdeeds? Can Musharraf be held accountable the way Nawaz was? That's the difference between the two. If one mucks around, there is now precedent for their being repercussions to that. The military still gets to run around completely free from any fear of consequences to any illegal or unethical activites they may commit. A lot of their worst crimes also get to fly under the radar due to media censorship so unlike, say, Nawaz or Zardari, we're not even sure of the full extent of their illegal activities. Can you honestly say they can be held accountable for that? For starters, lets go with the DHA Islamabad land grab issue. How many people here even know about it?

I wouldn't say terrorism is under control but yes, it's much better now and that's because only two groups, TTP and LeJ, accounted for the vast majority of terrorist attacks in Pakistan since 9/11. The military rightly gets credit for pretty much taking out one of those groups but does it similarly get held accountable for supporting the other one?

My point isn't that civilians are inherently better people, it's that we have means to deal with them which we don't with the military which is why they get away with so much more.
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I am not disputing anything you're saying, infact I make the same points everytime as well. What I am saying is DESPITE all the inadequacies of the military our people could be TEN times better if the civilians decided to even put 10% more work. If they did that then everyone would be well fed and reasonably educated to care about the military's shadowy role in our country's policies.

Right now all people want is good education and good health care for them and their children. Neither of which they are getting.
 
DW44 said:
Yes, well the lecture is relevant to the discussion and without at least understanding the basics and the implications various government actions have for long and short term economic prospects, why are you even having this debate? Here's some good starting points, I'm sure you can look up more since it's all in the public domain:

https://www.dawn.com/news/1309548
https://www.dawn.com/news/1173993
http://herald.dawn.com/news/1153217
https://tribune.com.pk/story/1073930/more-protection-chinese-imports-hurt-pakistans-men-of-steel/
https://www.dawn.com/news/1340443
https://tribune.com.pk/story/1237534/cpec-project-nascent-industries-afraid-big-chinese-firms/
Click to expand...

Tile industry is also facing competition from Iran, where energy is cheap. High cost of production is also a major factor for economic woes. Lack of research is another, we have not even upgraded our seeds since decades. FTA with China has just started to impact negatively but don't over blow it. Industry also requires innovation and technology which we don't have and for that we do need quality education. Even if higher education is not accessible to a vast segment of population but it should be of high quality to promote innovation and research which are hallmark of technology.
Don't trivialize corruption either, as i get the idea that you think of policies as the be all and end all of progress. Governance has a major role to play and transparency ; which means minimum of corruption is the linchpin of governance.
 
Pakpak said:
I am not disputing anything you're saying, infact I make the same points everytime as well. What I am saying is DESPITE all the inadequacies of the military our people could be TEN times better if the civilians decided to even put 10% more work. If they did that then everyone would be well fed and reasonably educated to care about the military's shadowy role in our country's policies.

Right now all people want is good education and good health care for them and their children. Neither of which they are getting.
Click to expand...
The deficiencies of our many civilian governments are not in debate. On that I don't see why there's this constant back and forth since I'm in agreement with most of what's been said here. That said, I'd like a system where the military's power is greatly reduced and the civilians actually have all the powers vested in them by the constitution as opposed to the army's leftovers they have now. In such a system, if they mess up, they can be dealt with and at least we know they're the ones responsible.

In our current smoke and mirrors setup, it's hard to even tell who's calling the shots on what issue and is therefore responsible on that front. Security is one example of that. You'll see the army get credit for any success there and the civilians get blame for any failure but it's clear that only one party is calling the shots. This hypocrisy is what irks me and it has been demonstrated many times by several people posting here. By all means skewer the civilians if they mess up because you can but for those saying they'd take the army over civilians, *** don't shoot yourself in the foot because the army comes with the same baggage as the civilians, be it corruption, nepotism or bad management of the economy (on this front they're actually worse than the civilians and this, to me, is the most important issue) but you don't have the same options for dealing with them that you do with the civvies.

One thing I'd like to add is that the military still indirectly plays at least some role in our poor education and healthcare systems. These things are massive money sinks and they often get first dibs on national budgets in most countries but Pakistan's defense budget can not be debated in parliament and it accounts for a significant enough chunk of overall spending to negatively impact other important sectors. That's not to say that whatever the civvies can spend is spent well but there's more than one aspect to consider on this issue.
 
Our foreign minister sharing the pics of mumtaz qadri's funeral and tell us that this is nawaz rally :))
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="ur" dir="rtl">نواز شریف جمھوریت کا پیامبر GTروڈ کی طرف رواں دواں ۔۔اھل راولپنڈی نے پیار کی نئی تاریخ رقم کر دی <a href="https://t.co/yT5YG3U54X">pic.twitter.com/yT5YG3U54X</a></p>— Khawaja M. Asif (@KhawajaMAsif) <a href="https://twitter.com/KhawajaMAsif/status/895387119040032769">August 9, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
waqar goraya said:
Tile industry is also facing competition from Iran, where energy is cheap. High cost of production is also a major factor for economic woes. Lack of research is another, we have not even upgraded our seeds since decades. FTA with China has just started to impact negatively but don't over blow it. Industry also requires innovation and technology which we don't have and for that we do need quality education. Even if higher education is not accessible to a vast segment of population but it should be of high quality to promote innovation and research which are hallmark of technology.
Don't trivialize corruption either, as i get the idea that you think of policies as the be all and end all of progress. Governance has a major role to play and transparency ; which means minimum of corruption is the linchpin of governance.
Click to expand...
We also have a preferential trade agreement with Iran. A country like Pakistan simply shouldn't be signing PTAs or FTAs at this point, period. We're not really at a point where lack of research starts becoming a factor, that comes much later in the cycle. We haven't even fully entered the copy paste growth stage where you mass produce cheap, low tech goods that don't require much innovation like textiles, toys, steel and the like. Innovation is a luxury you can't afford to throw good money at so early in the development cycle. You do that once your labor driven industrialization drives wages up to the point where you can't compete in basic industries on cost which is when you reach a per capita GDP of around $7000-8000 for a country of Pakistan's size. That's also when you have just barely enough resources to set up a very rudimentary innovation focused education system.

FTA with China has been the single greatest factor alongside the energy crisis in our alarmingly fast industrialization. The numbers line up too perfectly and this isn't the first time such a thing has happened so it's not a case of "maybe it could be something else, lets investigate". It's a cause-effect relationship that has been established centuries ago and it manifested in Pakistan exactly as smarter policy makers before us have foreseen and avoided, or in some cases stumbled into.

No one's trivializing corruption. If anything, most people are blowing it's impact out of proportion. Policy completely overshadows corruption in terms of priority for a country scraping the proverbial bottom of the economic barrel. The reason is simple. You can grow despite corruption but you can't really deal with corruption without developing your economy to a reasonable stand that we're nowhere near right now. Recent history is replete with examples of countries developing despite staggering levels of corruption. I can't think of a single country that made any meaningful efforts, much less progress, against corruption without first developing an economy stable enough to sustain institutions needed to deal with corruption.

Just out of curiosity, can you identify the country and it's level of development at the time described here, from the following description:

The country’s trade policy has literally been the most protectionist in the world for the last few decades, with an average industrial tariff rate at 40–55 per cent. The majority of the population cannot vote, and vote-buying and electoral fraud are widespread. Corruption is rampant, with political parties selling government jobs to their financial backers. The country has never recruited a single civil servant through an open, competitive process. Its public finances are precarious, with records of government loan defaults that worry foreign investors. Despite this, it discriminates heavily against foreign investors. Especially in the banking sector, foreigners are prohibited from becoming directors while foreign shareholders cannot even exercise their
voting rights unless they are resident in the country. It does not have a competition law, permitting cartels and other forms of monopoly to grow unchecked. Its protection of intellectual property rights is patchy, particularly marred by its refusal to protect foreigners’ copyrights.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
WebGuru said:
Our foreign minister sharing the pics of mumtaz qadri's funeral and tell us that this is nawaz rally :))
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="ur" dir="rtl">نواز شریف جمھوریت کا پیامبر GTروڈ کی طرف رواں دواں ۔۔اھل راولپنڈی نے پیار کی نئی تاریخ رقم کر دی <a href="https://t.co/yT5YG3U54X">pic.twitter.com/yT5YG3U54X</a></p>— Khawaja M. Asif (@KhawajaMAsif) <a href="https://twitter.com/KhawajaMAsif/status/895387119040032769">August 9, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
Click to expand...

Someone's just told me the deputy speaker of the parliament is at the rally and he's threatened to kill Imran Khan if he turns up ? If so, it just goes to prove that they're purposefully trying to agitate to the point Army may feel the need to step in to stop a civil war breaking out.
 
Asim_khan said:
Someone's just told me the deputy speaker of the parliament is at the rally and he's threatened to kill Imran Khan if he turns up ? If so, it just goes to prove that they're purposefully trying to agitate to the point Army may feel the need to step in to stop a civil war breaking out.
Click to expand...

I also heard that he used words like "thok do". Nooras showing their true face
 
DW44 said:
Yes, well the lecture is relevant to the discussion and without at least understanding the basics and the implications various government actions have for long and short term economic prospects, why are you even having this debate? Here's some good starting points, I'm sure you can look up more since it's all in the public domain:

https://www.dawn.com/news/1309548
https://www.dawn.com/news/1173993
http://herald.dawn.com/news/1153217
https://tribune.com.pk/story/1073930/more-protection-chinese-imports-hurt-pakistans-men-of-steel/
https://www.dawn.com/news/1340443
https://tribune.com.pk/story/1237534/cpec-project-nascent-industries-afraid-big-chinese-firms/
Click to expand...

I dont think the deal is as bad you make out, the main problem is that in the main our businessman havent taken advantage of the availing opportunities but i take your point but still you conveniently ignored my question again about whether the deal would have been done under both civilian or millitary rule? Your original point was that only the millitary rule could have led to the FTA.
 
DW44 said:
We also have a preferential trade agreement with Iran. A country like Pakistan simply shouldn't be signing PTAs or FTAs at this point, period. We're not really at a point where lack of research starts becoming a factor, that comes much later in the cycle. We haven't even fully entered the copy paste growth stage where you mass produce cheap, low tech goods that don't require much innovation like textiles, toys, steel and the like. Innovation is a luxury you can't afford to throw good money at so early in the development cycle. You do that once your labor driven industrialization drives wages up to the point where you can't compete in basic industries on cost which is when you reach a per capita GDP of around $7000-8000 for a country of Pakistan's size. That's also when you have just barely enough resources to set up a very rudimentary innovation focused education system.

FTA with China has been the single greatest factor alongside the energy crisis in our alarmingly fast industrialization. The numbers line up too perfectly and this isn't the first time such a thing has happened so it's not a case of "maybe it could be something else, lets investigate". It's a cause-effect relationship that has been established centuries ago and it manifested in Pakistan exactly as smarter policy makers before us have foreseen and avoided, or in some cases stumbled into.

No one's trivializing corruption. If anything, most people are blowing it's impact out of proportion. Policy completely overshadows corruption in terms of priority for a country scraping the proverbial bottom of the economic barrel. The reason is simple. You can grow despite corruption but you can't really deal with corruption without developing your economy to a reasonable stand that we're nowhere near right now. Recent history is replete with examples of countries developing despite staggering levels of corruption. I can't think of a single country that made any meaningful efforts, much less progress, against corruption without first developing an economy stable enough to sustain institutions needed to deal with corruption.

Just out of curiosity, can you identify the country and it's level of development at the time described here, from the following description:
Click to expand...

Economists themselves hardly agree on anything. But to my understanding, the progress in the past two decades owes a lot to FDI , where foreigners already at an advanced stage invest and produce in a cheap raw-material and labor set up.

I still differ with you on the China FTA. When was the FTA signed actually? And how much better was Pakistan's growth rate prior to FTA with China?

Corruption to the extent that it leaves our energy very costly, it deprives country of basic infrastructure has its consequences.
I don't know what country you are talking about but i don't think any of these countries like Malaysia, Indonesia, Vietnam, Turkey or any other were having governance levels of Pakistan when they made growth.
I think of this process as more uniform and simultaneous in the current age. Countries like Vietnam and Malaysia have transformed within years than decades.
Tell me more about the country and then we will proceed further.
 
[MENTION=26195]DW44[/MENTION], Investors are also reluctant to invest in industry because of high cost of production and in-security . Don't you think governance takes the blame here? Even our rice and cotton exports are decreasing because old seeds have become virus prone, don't you think we can afford even this level of research? Even India has introduced far better varieties of seeds.
 
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