Neutral sources dismiss Indian claims of shooting down Pakistan's F-16

[Manik Rao]

On February 27th amid heightening tensions between India and Pakistan in Kashmir, an Indian Air Force MiG-21 aircraft was shot down by Pakistan. In the ensuing war of words over the incidents, both sides made varying claims about the incident, with India saying they had downed a Pakistani aircraft, while Pakistan stated it had downed two Indian aircraft. India acknowledged the loss of one, while Pakistan denied any losses of aircraft.

Against this backdrop, when images of apparent aircraft wreckage started popping up on social media, different interpretations were offered on what the images actually show. This post focuses on claims that pictures released by Pakistan actually showed parts of an F-16, purportedly downed by India.

The two tweets below are examples of claims made regarding the aircraft pieces.

The tweets above claimed to show F-16 parts, so we’re focusing on these for the verification. First, comparing two of the images released by Pakistan, we can determine they are two different perspectives of the same aircraft part. The colored arrows point out details that can be used for matching, such as a service hatch and a bent metal pipe.

A YouTube video from the scene also presents a walkaround view of the same part, establishing the same. (1:56 onwards)

The imagery appears to show an exhaust consistent with an R-25 engine found on the MiG-21bis. Additional imagery from the scene helps us verify this is the tail section. For example, this image:

If we rotate the image 180 degrees and put it side-by-side with a MiG-21’s tail, we have a good match.

For completeness, we can also match the section with the box which was claimed to contain an F-16 serial to this same piece.

According to a MiG-21 service manual available through CIA’s archive, we can determine that this is the thermocouple service hatch. Another manual for the aircraft states that the thermocouple junction box is located in this part of the aircraft, so it’s possible that is the function of the numbered box.

In fact, if we take a closer look at the service hatch, we can see a “CU” format serial number on there, which is used on the upgrade Indian MiG-21bis aircraft.

So, taken together, this is all so say that the claim about the writing on the junction box proving this is be an F-16 part is not correct. This is in fact very much part of an Indian MiG-21.

But what about the other fragment that was matched to an F-16, suggesting it was part of the engine? We don’t have a good match to an F-16 there, either. On the left below, we see an F-16 GE F110 engine being removed from the aircraft. (U.S. Air Force photo) On the right, a close up of the fragment from Pakistan. Note the uniform rectangular distribution on the F-16 engine cover, while the piece in Pakistan in showing different patterns and thicknesses of supports on the piece, while also curving inward.

Here, YouTube gives us another interesting point of comparison. Reportedly, a MiG-21bis was shot down in Croatia in 1991, and the wreckage of the aircraft is on display at the “museum collection of the homeland war in Turanj“. The YouTube walkaround of this wreckage shows features which match better to a MiG-21 than an F-16.

In summary, there’s no compelling evidence offered as of yet that an F-16 would have been shot down, and all signs point to MiG-21 wreckage having been on display thus far.


https://www.bellingcat.com/news/rest-of-world/2019/03/02/falcon-vs-bison-verifying-a-mig-21-wreck/

 

[Muhammad10]

But Boom Boom Bumrah says it happened so it must be true.

 

[King-Misbah]

Indian lies exposed again! Indian army also suffered heavy casualities last night! We are not Iraq or Syria! Salute to Pakistani army!

 

[a_tahir]

Indian lies exposed again! Indian army also suffered heavy casualities last night! We are not Iraq or Syria! Salute to Pakistani army!

Thank God we have nuclear bombs or else we would have been at the same level as Syria or Iraq.

 

[Bewal Express]

If an F16 had been downed We can safely assume that no pics or vids would have been released by PK because it would have given Ind a propaganda victory. So in short Ind didnt shoot down any F16 and it got humiliated because it wants act as a bully

 

[Taaya]

I bet none of Modi's keyboard warriors will post here. Or they will say this guy is known to be anti-Indian or is a "nobody".

 

[King-Misbah]

If an F16 had been downed We can safely assume that no pics or vids would have been released by PK because it would have given Ind a propaganda victory. So in short Ind didnt shoot down any F16 and it got humiliated because it wants act as a bully

No F16 was even used; Indians lying as usual. Indians took a heavy beating and had to console their dumb bakhts.

 

[Bewal Express]

No F16 was even used; Indians lying as usual. Indians took a heavy beating and had to console their dumb bakhts.

Totally agree.

 

[Disk2050]

Falcon vs Bison: Verifying a MiG-21 Wreck

Falcon vs Bison: Verifying a MiG-21 Wreck
March 2, 2019
By Veli-Pekka Kivimäki
On February 27th amid heightening tensions between India and Pakistan in Kashmir, an Indian Air Force MiG-21 aircraft was shot down by Pakistan. In the ensuing war of words over the incidents, both sides made varying claims about the incident, with India saying they had downed a Pakistani aircraft, while Pakistan stated it had downed two Indian aircraft. India acknowledged the loss of one, while Pakistan denied any losses of aircraft.
Against this backdrop, when images of apparent aircraft wreckage started popping up on social media, different interpretations were offered on what the images actually show. This post focuses on claims that pictures released by Pakistan actually showed parts of an F-16, purportedly downed by India.
The two tweets below are examples of claims made regarding the aircraft pieces.

The tweets above claimed to show F-16 parts, so we’re focusing on these for the verification. First, comparing two of the images released by Pakistan, we can determine they are two different perspectives of the same aircraft part. The colored arrows point out details that can be used for matching, such as a service hatch and a bent metal pipe.

A YouTube video from the scene also presents a walkaround view of the same part, establishing the same. (1:56 onwards)
https://youtu.be/h7xcPfj3H94

The imagery*appears to show an exhaust consistent with an R-25 engine found on the MiG-21bis. Additional imagery from the scene helps us verify this is the tail section. For example, this image:

If we rotate the image 180 degrees and put it side-by-side with a MiG-21’s tail, we have a good match.

For completeness, we can also match the section with the box which was claimed to contain an F-16 serial to this same piece.
According to a MiG-21 service manual available through CIA’s archive, we can determine that this is the thermocouple service hatch. Another manual for the aircraft states that the thermocouple junction box is located in this part of the aircraft, so it’s possible that is the function of the numbered box.

In fact, if we take a closer look at the service hatch, we can see a “CU” format serial number on there, which is used on the upgrade Indian MiG-21bis aircraft.

So, taken together, this is all so say that the claim about the writing on the junction box proving this is be an F-16 part is not correct. This is in fact very much part of an Indian MiG-21.
But what about the other fragment that was matched to an F-16, suggesting it was part of the engine? We don’t have a good match to an F-16 there, either. On the left below, we see an F-16 GE F110 engine being removed from the aircraft. (U.S.*Air Force photo) On the right, a close up of the fragment from Pakistan. Note the uniform rectangular distribution on the F-16 engine cover, while the piece in Pakistan in showing different patterns and thicknesses of supports on the piece, while also curving inward.

Here, YouTube gives us another interesting point of comparison. Reportedly, a MiG-21bis was shot down in Croatia in 1991, and the wreckage of the aircraft is on display at the “museum collection of the homeland war in Turanj“. The YouTube walkaround of this wreckage shows features which match better to a MiG-21 than an F-16.

In summary, there’s no compelling evidence offered as of yet that an F-16 would have been shot down, and all signs point to MiG-21 wreckage having been on display thus far.

SOURCE: https://www.bellingcat.com/news/rest-of-world/2019/03/02/falcon-vs-bison-verifying-a-mig-21-wreck/

 

[sjahmed23]

No F16 was even used; Indians lying as usual. Indians took a heavy beating and had to console their dumb bakhts.

Indians keep parroting about F16 because they feel ashamed Pakistan is building and using its own aircraft JF-17 while them being a technology sooparpowah are still figuring things out with the help from Israelis and Americans. Imagine telling the junta, the country that is suppose to be isolated, terrorist breeding ground is now building its own fighter jets that can fly into our terroritory attack us and down two of our aircrafts in the process. I don't think junta will like that very much :/.

As ISPR said, "we will surprise you"

 

[Lonewarrior]

Air force monthley writes NO EVIDENCE OF f-16 shot down. (discussion of JF-17 kill)

As more details gradually emerge from the aftermath of yesterday’s aerial skirmishes over the disputed Kashmir region, it appears increasingly likely that a Pakistan Air Force (PAF) JF-17 Thunder fighter claimed the type’s first air-to-air kill against a manned opponent.

full article -

https://airforcesmonthly.keypublishing.com/2019/02/28/first-air-to-air-kill-for-jf-17/


Indians ...

 

[Bilal_103]

Where are all those Indian posters who were saying the f16 got shot down?

 

[PakLFC]

I have not read any foreign source who accepts the Indian view. Even the New York Times is saying there is no evidence of any Indian strikes. This from a people who Indian's like to quote repeatedly as being the divine truth tellers.

 

[gazza619]

The most embarrassing week in the history of India

 

[Strike!]

Asia Times: No proof India shot down Pakistan F-16

The clash between India and Pakistan involving their respective air forces last week has led to claims and counter-claims from the two South Asian rivals. While India claimed its air force entered Pakistan air space in the early hours of February 26, Pakistan claimed a similar air attack on Indian positions a day later.

However, one claim from India has taken a bizarre turn. In response to the Pakistan air raid in the morning on February 27, Indian fighter jets gave chase as part of the air defense measures. While the Pakistan jets turned back in a matter of seconds, an Indian MiG-21 gave chase and crossed into Pakistan’s air space. It was brought down by Pakistan’s air defense surface-to-air missiles and the pilot was captured.

However, Indian Air Force (IAF) officials were quick to claim that before being shot down, Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman managed to shoot down a Pakistani F-16. The IAF also put out a series of tweets claiming that an F-16 had been shot down.
Did India down an F-16?

However, by March 1, rumors started flying that Abhinandan had shot down a Pakistan Air Force (PAF) pilot named Shahaz-ud-Din, who was from 19 Squadron, also known as the sher-dils, or lion-hearted. On March 2, FirstPost, a well-known Indian news website, published a story written by consulting editor Praveen Swami, claiming: “The news that Shahaz-ud-Din’s plane was shot down was first reported by London-based lawyer Khalid Umar, who says he received it privately, from individuals related to the F-16 pilot’s family.”

Quoting Umar’s Facebook post, Swami also reported that the pilot had ejected “possibly in the Laam Valley” and had been mistaken for an Indian pilot by locals on the ground. They allegedly lynched him, and Swami wrote that “Shahaz-ud-Din, Umar has claimed, was hospitalized, but succumbed to his injuries.”

Swami also claimed that both the downed pilots, Varthaman and Shahaz-d-Din, were sons of Air Marshals in the IAF and PAF. “Shahaz-ud-Din’s father, Waseem-ud-Din, is also an Air Marshal of the Pakistan Air Force, who has flown F-16 and Mirages,” he wrote.

However, an investigation by Asia Times revealed that while Air Marshal Wasimuddin did serve in the PAF before retiring, he did not have a son named Shahaz-ud-Din.
Non-existent pilot

Air Marshal Wasimuddin has two sons, Aleem Uddin and Waqar Uddin. Waqar is studying in Warwickshire in the United Kingdom, while Aleem, who has studied at Royal Holloway, the University of London, works in the telecom sector.

“I have only two sons and neither of them has been a part of the PAF, nor has either ever flown a plane,” he said. “I have not considered any legal action [against the Indian media reports]. I actually laughed them off. My sons have been abroad for years. Unfortunately, they have been needlessly dragged into all this,” Wasimuddin said.

PAF officials confirmed that the retired air marshal had been asked to record a video as a rebuttal to claims in the India media. However, Wasimuddin said he wanted to avoid it because he did not want any undue attention on him or his family given the current crisis.

This raises a set of bigger questions.

If there is no “Wing Commander Shahaz-ud-Din” in the PAF, then who was piloting the F-16 that was allegedly shot down by the IAF? Or did the IAf really shoot down an F-16?

Air Commodore Kaiser Tufail is a former F-16 fighter pilot in the PAF and the author of Great Air Battles of Pakistan Air Force, a seminal book on its wartime history. He believes the Indian claim has no merit.

“It is relatively easy to provide incontrovertible evidence for such a kill by the IAF,” Tufail told Asia Times in several text messages in response to queries. “The MiG-21 pilot should have been in touch with his fighter controller on the ground. Also, the other Indian fighter aircraft engaging the PAF fighter jets would have been monitoring the situation. They would have the data that can prove if an F-16 was shot down. Why isn’t India releasing that data?”

“The trace of the ground and airborne radar scope is always recorded, and usually, all radars preserve this for up to 72 hours, before being overwritten,” he said. “These traces can easily provide the incoming aircraft. And the sudden disappearance of the blip from the (radar) scope of this incoming aircraft will imply a ‘kill.’ There couldn’t be better evidence than this.”

“The IAF can (also) provide audio recording(s) of the interception in which the (MiG-21) pilot must have transmitted to his flight controller. There would be ‘radar contact,’ ‘visual contact,’ target shot down.’ These recordings should be available with the ground radar as well as the airborne radar that was flying that day,” he added.
Indians lost face?

Asia Times spoke to multiple IAF fighter pilots both serving and retired to ascertain their version of events. Most agreed with Air Commodore Tufail’s analysis of the sequence of events.

“It is true that the MiG-21 pilot would have had made some recordings of the air engagement, both audio and video,” a former IAF fighter pilot said on condition of anonymity. “Right from the 1970s, MiG-21s had cameras in the gun and missile pods. Any launch is recorded and if there are any ‘kills’ it should have been recorded. This should also be available in the on-board avionics. But the Pakistanis have it now,” he said.

“However, even a radio transmission, as well as data from the Airborne Early Warning (AEW) that had taken off when the first PAF fighters were detected, should have some data, including the loss of a radar blip, if the MiG-21 had shot it down. Even Wing Commander Abhinandan’s radio transmissions should be available and we can check them to see if he did report a ‘kill’ before going down,” the Indian fighter pilot said.

Some IAF officials privately feel the loss of the MiG-21 was a major “loss of face.” Even though Wing Commander Abhinandan “displayed high professional acumen and took on an F-16 in his MiG-21, the fact that we lost it was very embarrassing a day after we took out a Jaish-e-Mohammed (JeM) terror camp deep inside Pakistan,” another senior IAF official told Asia Times.

Air Commodore Tufail also clarified that unlike past analogous radars, the present Synthetic Aperture Radars (SAR) were incapable of distinguishing between aircraft. A former IAF fighter pilot Asia Times spoke to confirmed this. “The SAR would not be in a position to tell whether it was an F-16 or not. But the other data would have definitely recorded an F-16 ‘kill’ by the MiG-21.”
Confusing statements

What added to the confusion was Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR) Director General Major General Asif Ghafoor’s press conference on Wednesday, where he mentioned that Pakistan had captured two Indian pilots. One was Wing Commander Varthaman and the other was taken to the Combined Military Hospital (CMH) after being severely injured.

That claim came after Ghafoor’s initial tweet suggested there were actually three Indian pilots on the Pakistani side of the Line of Control. This was also reported by prime minister Imran Khan in his address to the National Assembly.

Much later Ghafoor said only one pilot was in Pakistani custody. PAF officials told Asia Times they were planning a display of all their fighter jets for neutral observers as evidence that none of their aircraft had been taken down by the IAF.

According to a Pakistani official, on condition of anonymity, F-16s had indeed been used to strike targets inside Indian territory. “I don’t know why [Asif Ghafoor] said that. Perhaps it would’ve been better if an air force person was dealing with the briefing. Even if somebody had asked him [about the F-16s] during the presser it would’ve been best to say something open-ended and not something as categorical as what he said,” the official said.

Analysts think one of the reasons behind Ghafoor’s statement could be to address concerns by the American State Department over the use of US-made F-16 fighter jets.

While Indian officials have showcased parts of an AMRAAM missile as evidence that Pakistan did use an American-made F-16, PAF officials say that part of the missile being discovered was ‘conclusive evidence’ that the Pakistan jets were not shot down.

“AMRAAM only goes with the F-16, but what the Indians don’t seem to realize is how the AMRAAM got there. There’s a reason why no debris of the jet has been recovered and only the remains of the missile have been found,” said Air Commodore Kaiser Tufail, a former PAF F-16 fighter pilot.

An Indian Airforce officer stated, “When a missile hits a jet it breaks down into small pieces just like the aircraft it targets – it doesn’t vaporize. If it doesn’t hit the target, its rocket fuel finishes in 20-25 seconds, and it just falls down on the ground intact. So the fact that an AMRAAM piece was recovered proves that the F-16 did strike a target.”

Meanwhile, locals on the ground reiterated that no Pakistani pilot bailed out along with Wing Commander Varthaman. “Only the Indian pilot landed here, and while the locals initially did try to physically harm him, he was protected by Pakistan Army officials. There was no Pakistani pilot who parachuted along with him, let alone being killed by a mob,” Fiaz Mahmood, a local businessman in the Bhimber district of Pakistan-administered Kashmir, told Asia Times.

The episode has raised several questions about India’s deteriorating military capabilities due its faulty procurement policies and lack of political will. Last year India’s Vice-Chief of Army Staff told Parliament’s standing committee on defense that the Narendra Modi government’s financial squeeze had left the forces bereft of funds.

https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/03/article/no-proof-india-shot-down-pakistan-f-16/

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Interesting article.

It takes the claim made in some random FB post (reg Shahaz Ud Zin) seriously and debunks it to say there is no proof. That's like me taking all the fake news peddled on Twitter and then slamming PAF for that. That wouldn't make a lot of sense, would it?

Air Commodore Kaiser Tufail is a former F-16 fighter pilot in the PAF and the author of Great Air Battles of Pakistan Air Force, a seminal book on its wartime history. He believes the Indian claim has no merit.

“It is relatively easy to provide incontrovertible evidence for such a kill by the IAF,” Tufail told Asia Times in several text messages in response to queries. “The MiG-21 pilot should have been in touch with his fighter controller on the ground. Also, the other Indian fighter aircraft engaging the PAF fighter jets would have been monitoring the situation. They would have the data that can prove if an F-16 was shot down. Why isn’t India releasing that data?”

“The trace of the ground and airborne radar scope is always recorded, and usually, all radars preserve this for up to 72 hours, before being overwritten,” he said. “These traces can easily provide the incoming aircraft. And the sudden disappearance of the blip from the (radar) scope of this incoming aircraft will imply a ‘kill.’ There couldn’t be better evidence than this.”

“The IAF can (also) provide audio recording(s) of the interception in which the (MiG-21) pilot must have transmitted to his flight controller. There would be ‘radar contact,’ ‘visual contact,’ target shot down.’ These recordings should be available with the ground radar as well as the airborne radar that was flying that day,” he added.

Asia Times spoke to multiple IAF fighter pilots both serving and retired to ascertain their version of events. Most agreed with Air Commodore Tufail’s analysis of the sequence of events.

“It is true that the MiG-21 pilot would have had made some recordings of the air engagement, both audio and video,” a former IAF fighter pilot said on condition of anonymity. “Right from the 1970s, MiG-21s had cameras in the gun and missile pods. Any launch is recorded and if there are any ‘kills’ it should have been recorded. This should also be available in the on-board avionics. But the Pakistanis have it now,” he said.

“However, even a radio transmission, as well as data from the Airborne Early Warning (AEW) that had taken off when the first PAF fighters were detected, should have some data, including the loss of a radar blip, if the MiG-21 had shot it down. Even Wing Commander Abhinandan’s radio transmissions should be available and we can check them to see if he did report a ‘kill’ before going down,” the Indian fighter pilot said.

Some IAF officials privately feel the loss of the MiG-21 was a major “loss of face.” Even though Wing Commander Abhinandan “displayed high professional acumen and took on an F-16 in his MiG-21, the fact that we lost it was very embarrassing a day after we took out a Jaish-e-Mohammed (JeM) terror camp deep inside Pakistan,” another senior IAF official told Asia Times.

Air Commodore Tufail also clarified that unlike past analogous radars, the present Synthetic Aperture Radars (SAR) were incapable of distinguishing between aircraft. A former IAF fighter pilot Asia Times spoke to confirmed this. “The SAR would not be in a position to tell whether it was an F-16 or not. But the other data would have definitely recorded an F-16 ‘kill’ by the MiG-21.”

So IAF must release proof if they took down F-16.

I don't understand what the last para means tho.

This same author in the other article on the same website says:

According to the Pakistan military’s official spokesperson Major General Asif Ghafoor, two Indian jets had been shot down by Pakistan’s F-16 combat jets. However, Indian authorities said one of the aircraft was a helicopter and its crash was attributed to a “technical snag.” Two bodies were recovered from the crash site, one the pilot and the other a civilian, according to sources in India.

https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/02/a...rcraft-and-arrested-a-pilot-developing-story/

lolwhat

No such comments were made. Is the writer drunk?

Author also goes on to say

Earlier, three Pakistani F-16 jets entered Indian airspace over Indian-administered Kashmir across the Nowshera and Poonch sectors. The jets dropped bombs near an Indian Army post in Rajouri. Indian officials claim that IAF jets patrolling the area pushed the Pakistani aircraft back across the LoC.

Where is he getting this info? Again, who said that? What is the source? Is it "unnamed sources" or is he quoting official sources?

According to a Pakistani official, on condition of anonymity, F-16s had indeed been used to strike targets inside Indian territory. “I don’t know why [Asif Ghafoor] said that. Perhaps it would’ve been better if an air force person was dealing with the briefing. Even if somebody had asked him [about the F-16s] during the presser it would’ve been best to say something open-ended and not something as categorical as what he said,” the official said.

So they did use it.

That would explain why IAF wanted to parade the AMRAAM and raise the issue.

Looks so.

While Indian officials have showcased parts of an AMRAAM missile as evidence that Pakistan did use an American-made F-16, PAF officials say that part of the missile being discovered was ‘conclusive evidence’ that the Pakistan jets were not shot down.

“AMRAAM only goes with the F-16, but what the Indians don’t seem to realize is how the AMRAAM got there. There’s a reason why no debris of the jet has been recovered and only the remains of the missile have been found,” said Air Commodore Kaiser Tufail, a former PAF F-16 fighter pilot.

But many Pakistanis said it can also be used even with JF17.

Even Indian defense analyst said that.

So what does this say about the credibility of the PAF guy? If his credibility is in question, how can we take his other statements seriously?

An Indian Airforce officer stated, “When a missile hits a jet it breaks down into small pieces just like the aircraft it targets – it doesn’t vaporize. If it doesn’t hit the target, its rocket fuel finishes in 20-25 seconds, and it just falls down on the ground intact. So the fact that an AMRAAM piece was recovered proves that the F-16 did strike a target.”

Yeah...this is a thing. AMRAAM must have hit something.

Meanwhile, locals on the ground reiterated that no Pakistani pilot bailed out along with Wing Commander Varthaman. “Only the Indian pilot landed here, and while the locals initially did try to physically harm him, he was protected by Pakistan Army officials. There was no Pakistani pilot who parachuted along with him, let alone being killed by a mob,” Fiaz Mahmood, a local businessman in the Bhimber district of Pakistan-administered Kashmir, told Asia Times.

Raises the whole question as to why Pak claimed arresting 2 targets.

----

All in all, an article with tons of useful quotes (assuming they are true) but due to an amateurish presentatation and inconsistenties, it leaves us with more questions than answers.

 

[a_tahir]

Interesting article.

It takes the claim made in some random FB post (reg Shahaz Ud Zin) seriously and debunks it to say there is no proof. That's like me taking all the fake news peddled on Twitter and then slamming PAF for that. That wouldn't make a lot of sense, would it?





So IAF must release proof if they took down F-16.

I don't understand what the last para means tho.

This same author in the other article on the same website says:



https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/02/a...rcraft-and-arrested-a-pilot-developing-story/

lolwhat

No such comments were made. Is the writer drunk?

Author also goes on to say



Where is he getting this info? Again, who said that? What is the source? Is it "unnamed sources" or is he quoting official sources?



So they did use it.

That would explain why IAF wanted to parade the AMRAAM and raise the issue.

Looks so.



But many Pakistanis said it can also be used even with JF17.

Even Indian defense analyst said that.

So what does this say about the credibility of the PAF guy? If his credibility is in question, how can we take his other statements seriously?



Yeah...this is a thing. AMRAAM must have hit something.



Raises the whole question as to why Pak claimed arresting 2 targets.

----

All in all, an article with tons of useful quotes (assuming they are true) but due to an amateurish presentatation and inconsistenties, it leaves us with more questions than answers.

You're trynna save a dead fish.
Stop it now. Stop trying too hard.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

You're trynna save a dead fish.
Stop it now. Stop trying too hard.

No.

I will stop once I find the truth.

Whatever it is.

 

[a_tahir]

No.

I will stop once I find the truth.

Whatever it is.

Yeah but using Times Of India is not a good way of finding out the truth.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Yeah but using Times Of India is not a good way of finding out the truth.

Shows how much you have been following my posts.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Yeap we should also have a new thread to mirror this one: No-Proof-Pakistan-Shot-Down- Indian Sukhoi MKI

 

[MenInG]

United States (US) officials did a count of Islamabad's F-16 jets recently and found that none were missing, contradicting India's claims that it shot down a Pakistani fighter jet amid heightened tensions between both countries after the Pulwama attack, a Foreign Policy report quoting two senior US defence officials said on Friday.

Following the conflict between the two countries in February, India had claimed that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) had used the F-16 to target Indian military installations after crossing the Line of Control. As "proof", a piece of an apparent missile was shown, which Indian media said could only have been fired by an F-16.

It also claimed that before an Indian plane was shot down and its pilot captured by Pakistani forces, an Indian Air Force (IAF) MiG Bison had shot down a PAF F-16 aircraft. Pakistan had denied the Indian claims.

New Delhi had also insisted that Pakistan’s alleged use of F-16 against India meant that Islamabad stood in violation of a sales agreement with the US. The US State Department had refused to take a position on India's complaint against Pakistan over using F-16s in the air battle.

Read more: Foreign journalists find holes in Indian narrative on F-16 usage, Balakot strike

According to the report, one of the unnamed senior US defence officials "with direct knowledge of the count" had told Foreign Policy that Pakistan had invited the US to count its F-16 planes after the incident "as part of an end-user agreement signed when the foreign military sale was finalised", the report said.

Foreign Policy added that Washington generally requires countries it strikes such agreements with to allow US officials to inspect equipment on a regular basis and to ensure that it is accounted for and safe.

The official explained that some of the aircraft were not immediately available for inspection after the Pak-India back-and-forth, so it took US personnel a few weeks to account for all the jets.

Find out more: Villagers near Balakot say nobody killed or injured by Indian aircraft

An associate professor of political science at MIT, Vipin Narang, told FP that although the news likely won't affect Indian voters, it may affect Delhi's dealings with Pakistan in the future.

"As details come out, it looks worse and worse for the Indians," Narang said. "It looks increasingly like India failed to impose significant costs on Pakistan, but lost a plane and a helicopter of its own in the process."

https://www.dawn.com/news/1474086/a...-personnel-contradicting-indian-claims-report

 

[Abdullah719]

IAF Did Not Shoot Down Pak F-16 in Balakot Aftermath, Says US Scholar Christine Fair

Chandigarh: Minutes after retired Air Chief Marshal B.S. Dhanoa attacked the Pakistani claim that IAF bombers dropped their payloads in haste and missed their target on February 26 when they bombed a Jaish-e-Mohammed terror camp in Balakot, Christine Fair – an expert on South Asian political and military affairs – said the IAF story of the operation and its aftermath is based on ‘dubious’ claims.

Fair, a professor of security studies at Georgetown University who has spent many years researching in Pakistan, stirred up a heated debate at the Military Literature Festival in Chandigarh on Saturday when she went on to assert that she did not believe India shot down an F-16 fighter during the dogfight between Indian and Pakistani jets in the aftermath of the Indian airstrikes over Balakot.

“I say this clearly with 100% certitude that there was no F-16 struck down. I do not believe you did. I believe that my bonafides as a critic of Pakistan stand for itself,” she said before a stunned audience. But Fair added that she and many others in the Pentagon actually wished that the IAF had indeed shot down the F-16, because India had “a right to bomb Pakistan” in retaliation for the Pulwama attack.

She, however, questioned the IAF’s narrative about the incident, saying that it is not based on an empirical body of facts but dictated more by “things deployed by politicians to win elections…. The world outside of India does not see things the way they were said here today. Though, I wish they were true.”

Fair is the author of Fighting to the End: The Pakistan Army’s Way of War, a brutal critique of the Pakistan army that analyses why it is a destabilising force in world politics.

‘India has lost a lot of credibility’

Amidst some interruptions from the audience – comprising mostly retired and serving defence officers – Fair went on to allege that the video of the purported F-16 going down in Pakistani territory and Punjabi speaking villagers talking about a pilot having crashed there, shared extensively on social media, was “fake”. She maintained that “India has lost a lot of credibility in the ways that certain images have been deployed through social media that do not show what they show, with the level of certainty that is asserted.”

India awarded Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman a Vir Chakra for shooting down a Pakistani F-16, described by the IAF as an aircraft superior to the MIG21 Bison that Varthaman was flying. Fair, countered this by saying, “Avionics experts outside of India are unanimous in their opinion that this particular MIG Bison was superior on virtually every respect to that particular F-16 that Pakistan flies.” Cautioning India against persisting with this narrative, Fair said that it does not serve the country’s interests because “though a little Bison taking down the mighty Falcon might be good for political consumption but it also makes a case that your airforce does not need a more modern weapon system.”

Fair’s assertions now, are however a revision of her stand in March this year, when she held, “After various claims and counter-claims, it now seems clear that Pakistan shot down a MiG 21 and captured its pilot, Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman, who was returned after considerable delay on March 1st. India, in turn, shot down a Pakistani jet which crashed on Pakistan’s side of the LoC. The fate of that pilot is unclear: Indian sources claim he was lynched by Pakistanis who mistook him for an Indian pilot while Pakistani sources deny this claim without offering alternative explanations.”

But on Saturday, speaking in the presence of Dhanoa and two other senior IAF officers, Fair also questioned India’s claim of extensive damage to the terror camp at Balakot based on images from open sources, saying that from an international point of view, these have not been accepted. “They are refuted by many scholars who are actually India’s friends.”

She said the immediate analyses using satellite imagery done by independent experts “does not show the damage which we have been presented with”. The IAF has maintained that extensive damage to the buildings did not take place because it used guided Spice bombs that enter a structure through small openings and kill the occupants without destroying the buildings. Accusing India of ‘confirmation bias where it is presenting evidence that it wants to believe’, Fair said that the Spice weapons work in the intended manner when they are dropped on a “hardened structure like the Pentagon building” but while landing on a corrugated steel roof like the one at the Balakot terror camp, the structure would surely have been devastated.

‘IAF did not drop bombs hastily’

Earlier, former Air Chief Dhanoa, who is seen as the architect of the Balakot strikes, said during the same panel discussion that there was no reason for the IAF jets to drop their bombs hastily and miss the target when the nearest interceptor (aircraft) was 150 km away. The PAF had secured the Bahawalpur camp of the Jaish but there were no terminal defences at Balakot, which went to show that the PAF is not kept informed about the ISI’s terror operations, he said. Pakistan had vacated the forward terror bases in anticipation of retaliation after Pulwama, but the PAF did not anticipate the attack so deep into its territory and on Balakot.

Maintaining that details of the Balakot operation are still classified, Dhanoa added, “Operational capability involved in the Balakot attacks and our intelligence capability cannot be compromised just to win a perception battle in the media.”

He also disclosed the reason for the government’s bold decision to launch airstrikes in Pakistani territory was, “All the three services assured the government that should there be an escalation of the conflict, they are ready. This kind of limited period engagement suits the PAF as it cannot match a conventional response.”

But Fair said that the real worry about the lessons from Balakot, as she saw it, is that in any future conflict arising out of a terror attack, which she believed is sure to happen, the offer to off-ramp and de-escalate the conflict should be based on empirical verifiable facts and analyses and not on things we want to believe. She compared the IAF’s alleged misrepresentation of facts to Colin Powell showing photographs of aluminium tubes at the United Nations Security Council to tell the world that Iraq had a nuclear programme, when the USA was building a case for a war on Iraq in 2003. “He knew at the time that that’s not what the photos could show.”

https://thewire.in/security/christine-fair-iaf-balakot-pakistan-f16

 

[ahsan17]

Beating a dead horse IMO. Indians will continue to believe in F-16 being shot down and missiles striking the building, while rest of the world and the proof show something else. Funnily enough, these are the same people that ask for "neutral sources" and deny anything if west doesn't agree with it.

 

[Captain caveman]

It is absolutely true, india did shoot down a Pakistani F - 16.

India also shot down a UFO last week (lol)!

 

[MenInG]

WASHINGTON: The Modi government’s public mischaracterisation of the February 2019 Balakot air strike raises questions about India’s ability to deal with an exceptionally dangerous regional situation, warns a recently released research paper.

The paper — “Strategic Implications of India’s liberalism and Democratic Erosion” — argues that under the leadership of Prime Minister Narendra Modi, “India’s commitment to democracy is increasingly in doubt” and this “erosion is most obvious in the areas of tightened media controls, limits on civil society organisations, and reduced protections for minorities.”

The author, Daniel Markey, a Senior Adviser on South Asia at the United States of Peace, wrote this paper for the National Bureau of Asian Research, which is a non-profit think-tank based in Seattle and Washington DC.

The author believes that the evolving character of India’s domestic politics “is likely to influence its foreign policy aims and decision-making processes, hard-power capabilities, and the way India relates to other states, including the US”.


Mr Markey points out that the Balakot airstrike, subsequent skirmishes and India’s “debunked claims of a destroyed terrorist camp inside Pakistan and downing of a Pakistani F-16 jet, have already raised questions in the United States about New Delhi’s credibility and communications strategy during an exceptionally dangerous regional context”.

Although India still refuses to accept its failure in intimidating Pakistan, US scholars and defence experts only confirm the downing of an Indian aircraft whose pilot was captured and later returned to India at Wagah border.

The paper urges US policymakers to recognise that if India’s leaders “feel less constrained by a free press and domestic audience costs, they may be more willing to run risks for tactical and political advantage”.

The paper also reviews India’s anti-Muslim policies, noting that when India’s policies disadvantage Muslims or other minority groups, perceptions of India suffer and India’s neighbours stop viewing the country as a pluralistic democracy.

This, the author warns, will reduce India’s ability to contest for regional influence while China can continue to increase its influence, “afforded by sheer financial heft”, in South Asia.

The paper argues that India’s huge Muslim population could conceivably serve as a natural bridge-building opportunity for New Delhi to facilitate closer relations with Muslim-majority states around the world. But an increasingly majoritarian, Hindutva India is more likely to find itself at odds -- or at least struggling to manage relations — with the rest of the Muslim world.

“At the very least, India misses an opportunity to score diplomatic points against its regional adversary Pakistan, a state nominally created as a homeland for South Asia’s Muslims that would be denied that animating purpose if India proved itself equally welcoming,” the paper adds.

The paper also points out that in 2019, publicly reported policing costs in occupied Jammu and Kashmir doubled after the Modi government preemptively imposed a heavy security presence to detain activists and quell any violent protest against its decision to revoke the state’s special semi-autonomous constitutional status.

Noting that “large-scale demonstrations destroy lives and property, harming the economy and reducing state tax revenues”, the author points out that “New Delhi’s 2020 communal riots were the worst in decades and reportedly destroyed over $3 billion in property. Four months of state-imposed lockdown in Jammu and Kashmir cost an estimated $2bn in lost GDP.”

The paper also cites a March 2021 letter written by Senator Robert Menendez, chairman of the US Foreign Relations Committee, expressing similar concerns. A self-described supporter of close US-India ties, Senator Menendez wrote that the US-India “partnership is strongest when based on shared democratic values and the Indian government has been trending away from those values”.

Published in Dawn, January 29th, 2022

 

[MenInG]

The US State Department has approved the potential sale of F-16 aircraft sustainment and related equipment to Pakistan in a deal valued at up to $450 million, the Pentagon said on Wednesday.

The principal contractor will be Lockheed Martin Corp (LMT.N), the Pentagon said.

"The State Department has made a determination approving a possible foreign military sale to the government of Pakistan of F-16 Case for Sustainment and related equipment for an estimated cost of $450 million," the agency said in its statement issued on Wednesday

According to the agency, Pakistan has requested the US to consolidate prior F-16 sustainment and support cases to support the country’s F-16 fleet.

However, under the proposed deal, the US will not provide any new capabilities, weapons, or munitions.

“This proposed sale will support the foreign policy and national security objectives of the United States by allowing Pakistan to retain interoperability with the US and partner forces in ongoing counterterrorism efforts and in preparation for future contingency operations," the agency said, adding it will improve Pakistan’s ability to support counterterrorism operations through its robust air-to-ground capability.

The agency clarified that its proposed deal will also not alter the basic military balance in the region.

 

[Realromeo]

The US State Department has approved the potential sale of F-16 aircraft sustainment and related equipment to Pakistan in a deal valued at up to $450 million, the Pentagon said on Wednesday.

The principal contractor will be Lockheed Martin Corp (LMT.N), the Pentagon said.

"The State Department has made a determination approving a possible foreign military sale to the government of Pakistan of F-16 Case for Sustainment and related equipment for an estimated cost of $450 million," the agency said in its statement issued on Wednesday

According to the agency, Pakistan has requested the US to consolidate prior F-16 sustainment and support cases to support the country’s F-16 fleet.

However, under the proposed deal, the US will not provide any new capabilities, weapons, or munitions.

“This proposed sale will support the foreign policy and national security objectives of the United States by allowing Pakistan to retain interoperability with the US and partner forces in ongoing counterterrorism efforts and in preparation for future contingency operations," the agency said, adding it will improve Pakistan’s ability to support counterterrorism operations through its robust air-to-ground capability.

The agency clarified that its proposed deal will also not alter the basic military balance in the region.

How many air crafts ? Can F-16 compete with Rafael ?

 

[the Great Khan]

How many air crafts ? Can F-16 compete with Rafael ?

None. This is maintenance and possible life upgrades. It's just part of the contract or a consolidation of all the contracts..

With regards to the second part it all depends on the situation tactics and other equipment that can assist.

 

[daytrader]

India mum over US aid to upgrade Pakistan’s F-16s
India is quiet over the US agreeing to a $450 million fleet-sustainment aid package early this week for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) to upgrade three squadrons of its 65-odd F-16 Fighting Falcon fighters, for its counterterrorism capabilities

ISLAMABAD: India is quiet over the US agreeing to a $450 million fleet-sustainment aid package early this week for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) to upgrade three squadrons of its 65-odd F-16 Fighting Falcon fighters, for its counterterrorism capabilities.

No official reaction has come from New Delhi regarding the decision of the US, which is termed a close strategic ally of India. It is clear that the diplomatic skills and efforts of Chief of Army Staff (COAS) General Qamar Javed Bajwa paved the way for the development, as he had constructive discussion with US Secretary of Defense General Lloyd James Austin, a day earlier. It was officially stated that during the call, matters of mutual interest, regional stability as well as defence and security cooperation were discussed in their conversation.

The Indian Ministry of External Affairs (MEA) has neither confirmed nor denied whether New Delhi had indeed been informed by Washington of its intent to back the PAF’s F-16 retrofit by platform manufacturers Lockheed Martin, in a move that could potentially challenge the Indian Air Force (IAF)’s rapidly declining fighter squadron strength.

According to the Pentagon’s Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA), the projected F-16 upgrade includes enhancing the fighters’ engine, overall structure and electronic warfare (EW) capability. Additionally, the platforms’ targeting and EW pods, which not only conduct electronic reconnaissance, but also perform communication and radar jamming roles, and other diverse classified and unclassified on-board fighter software, too, would undergo an upgrade.

Notifying the US Congress of the assistance package to the PAF through the Foreign Military Sales route, the DSCA clarified that the $450 million aid for F-16s did not include providing the combat platforms with new capabilities, weapons or munitions. Instead, the assistance would “support the foreign policy and national security of the US by allowing Pakistan to retain interoperability with the US and partner (it) in ongoing counterterrorism efforts and in preparation for future contingency operations,” the DSCA stated.

Furthermore, the DSCA declared that Pakistan would have no difficulty in absorbing these F-16 ‘articles and services’ into its armed forces. It went on to state that all these improvements to the combat platform would, in no way, alter the regional military balance in South Asia, an assertion the US has been articulating throughout, whenever it had previously supplied materiel to Pakistan.

Indian military experts have pointed out that US President Joe Biden had disappointed Indian military officials at a juncture when New Delhi was deemed Washington’s close strategic ally and was in advanced negotiations with it to acquire military hardware.

The planned acquisition includes 30 armed MQ-9 Reaper or Predator-B unmanned aerial vehicles for around $3 billion, and possibly 26 Boeing F/A-18 E/F Block III Super Hornet dual-engine fighters, including eight dual-seat trainers for INS Vikrant, the Indian Navy’s newly-commissioned aircraft carrier, for an additional $6-8 billion. India had already acquired over $20 billion worth of US military equipment since 2001-02.

The News PK

 

[PakLFC]

The USA will always do what is right for them. Pak understands this where as India thinks the American's should be pro India. The Indian attitude here always baffles me leaving me scratching my head. The American's will continue to arm Pak especially after IK has been ousted as PM. I am sure that was part of the deal with Pak that get rid of IK and we will arm you to the teeth against India.

 

[MenInG]

US State Department spokesperson Ned Price said on Wednesday that Washington expected Islamabad to take “sustained action” against all terrorist groups and that a recently proposed $450 million military sale package for the maintenance of Pakistan’s F-16 fleet would help serve this purpose.

“Pakistan’s F-16 programme, it’s an important part of the broader US-Pakistan bilateral relationship, and this proposed sale will sustain Pakistan’s capability to meet current and future counterterrorism threats by maintaining the F-16 fleet,” Price said during a press briefing on Tuesday.

“This is a fleet that allows Pakistan to support counterterrorism operations, and we expect Pakistan will take sustained action against all terrorist groups,” he added.

Price made these remarks when asked to share some details about the proposed package, about which the US government has already notified Congress.


Reiterating that the Congress had been notified of the proposed sale, Price said: “Pakistan is an important partner in a number of regards, an important counterterrorism partner.

“And as part of our longstanding policy, we provide life cycle maintenance and sustainment packages for US-origin platforms.”

On Wednesday last week, an official statement by the US Defence Secu*rity Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification of this possible sale to Congress.

The agency clarified that “the proposed sale does not include any new capabilities, weapons, or munitions”.

The follow-on support for Pakistan’s F-16 fleet would include participation in F-16 Aircraft Structural Integrity Programme, Electronic Combat International Security Assistance Programme, International Engine Management Programme, Engine Component Improvement Programme, and other technical coordination groups.

The support would also include aircraft and engine hardware and software modifications and support; aircraft and engine spare repair/return parts; accessories and support equipment; classified and unclassified software and software support; publications, manuals, and technical documentation; precision measurement, calibration, lab equipment, and technical support services; studies and surveys; and other related elements of aircraft maintenance and programme support.

‘US remains concerned by significant restrictions on media outlets’
During Tuesday’s briefing, Price was also asked to comment on media freedom in Pakistan, particularly with regard to restrictions on ARY News in recent days and the arrest of the channel’s head of news, Ammad Yousuf.

Price responded by saying: “We continue to be concerned by significant restrictions on media outlets and civil society in Pakistan.

“I know that your outlet, ARY, has not been immune to this constricted space. We routinely raise our concerns about press freedom to all stakeholders around the world, including to our partners and our counterparts in Pakistan,” he said.

Price added that the US was concerned that media and content restrictions, as well as a lack of accountability for attacks against journalists, undermined the exercise of freedom of expression, peaceful assembly and association.

“A free press and informed citizenry, we believe, are key to democratic societies around the world, key to our democratic future. That applies equally to Pakistan as it does to other countries around the world”.

Flood relief assistance
When asked about assistance for flood relief, Price said the US was “deeply saddened” by the devastation and loss of life caused by “historic floods” in Pakistan.

“We stand with the people of Pakistan at this difficult time,” Price assured, as he went on to share the details of support provided by the US so far.

He said as of September 12, a total of nine US Central Command (Centcom) flights delivered more than half of the 630 metric tons of relief supplies from the United States Agency for International Development’s (USAID) Dubai warehouse.

In total, Centcom would airlift more than 41,000 kitchen sets, 1,500 rolls of plastic sheeting, tens of thousands of plastic tarps, 8,700 shelter fixing kits — all in support of USAID’s flood relief, he added.

Price further said that in this fiscal year alone, “we’ve provided more than $53 million in humanitarian assistance, including urgently needed support for food, nutrition, multipurpose cash, safe drinking water, nutrition, sanitation and hygiene, as well as shelter assistance” to Pakistan.

“We’re going to continue to work very closely with our Pakistani partners to continue to assess the damage that has been wrought by these floods, and we’ll continue to provide assistance to our partners in this time of need,” he expressed the resolve.

 

[Lonewarrior]

i dont get it, why super pawar indians are worried about some vintage f-16 upgrade, dont they have super french rafale to counter whole PAF ...... ?

 

[MenInG]

India is concerned about a US decision to provide a sustenance package for Pakistan's fleet of F-16 fighter aircraft, the Indian defence minister told his US counterpart on Wednesday.

The US-built aircraft are a critical part of the military arsenal of Pakistan, whose arch-rival India worries that the fleet could be used against it by its neighbour.

Last week, the US State Department approved the potential sale of sustainment and related equipment to Pakistan in a deal valued at up to $450 million, with the principal contractor being Lockheed Martin Corp (LMT.N).

"I conveyed India’s concern at the recent US decision to provide a sustenance package for Pakistan’s F-16 fleet," Indian Defence Minister Rajnath Singh wrote on Twitter following what he called a "warm and productive" telephone conversation with US Secretary of Defence Lloyd Austin.

Singh's ministry said the two also reviewed US-Indian defence cooperation and reiterated their commitment to further strengthen military-to-military ties.

Pakistan, which like India is nuclear-armed, has relied heavily on Chinese-made jets, but the F-16s remain the most effective and advanced in its fleet.

Express Tribune

 

[daytrader]

Pak F-16 Package Not "Message To India" Over Its Neutrality On Russia: US
India's defence ties with Russian goes back several decades. A large portion of Indian military hardware has been of Russian-origin

New Delhi: The Biden administration's green light for key spares for Pakistan's F-16 fighter jets "is not designed as a message to India", a top American defence official has said. The previous Trump administration had blocked the $450 million programme for maintenance of the F-16s, which Pakistan bought decades ago.
On a question by reporters whether the F-16 upgrade and talk on defence US-Pakistan defence cooperation was a message to India for its neutrality on Russia, Ely Ratner, Assistant Secretary of Defence (Indo-Pacific Security Affairs), said: "Okay, so, no, absolutely not. The action on F-16s is not designed as a message to India as it relates to its relationship with Russia. The decision inside the US government around the F-16 issue was made, predicated on US interests associated with our defence partnership with Pakistan, which is primarily focused on counterterrorism and nuclear security."

India's defence ties with Russian goes back several decades. A large portion of Indian military hardware has been of Russian-origin, though in recent years India has bought US equipment and aircraft.

In a phone call last week with US Defence Secretary Lloyd Austin, Defence Minister Rajnath Singh had also conveyed India's concerns over Washington's decision to provide sustenance package for Pakistan's F-16 fleet.

Asked about the concerns raised by Mr Singh, Ely Ratner said, "And as the secretary made clear to minister Singh during their call last week, this case did not include any upgrades or munitions. And to the first part of your question, it is one that we have been engaging on with our Indian counterparts, both in advance of the announcement, to preview it, and during my visit with Assistant Secretary Lu in Delhi as well."

"So we thought it was quite important to be as transparent as we could with Indian counterparts, both in advance and during that decision. And it provided a good opportunity to have a healthy exchange on both the US rationale for its limited security partnership with Pakistan, as well as a good opportunity to hear India's concerns about that," Ely Ratner said.

Lockheed Martin, which makes the F-16, on its website says the four-decade old fighter jet programme which continues to be upgraded has so far produced 4,500 F-16s for 25 countries. These jets have flown a combined sorties of over 13 million, Lockheed Martin says.

NDTV