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New York Times: After India Loses Dogfight to Pakistan, Questions Arise About Its ‘Vintage’ Military

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https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/03/world/asia/india-military-united-states-china.html

NEW DELHI — It was an inauspicious moment for a military the United States is banking on to help keep an expanding China in check.

An Indian Air Force pilot found himself in a dogfight last week with a warplane from the Pakistani Air Force, and ended up a prisoner behind enemy lines for a brief time.

The pilot made it home in one piece, however bruised and shaken, but the plane, an aging Soviet-era MiG-21, was less lucky.

The aerial clash, the first by the South Asian rivals in nearly five decades, was a rare test for the Indian military — and it left observers a bit dumbfounded. While the challenges faced by the India’s armed forces are no secret, its loss of a plane last week to a country whose military is about half the size and receives a quarter of the funding was still telling.

If intense warfare broke out tomorrow, India could supply its troops with only 10 days of ammunition, according to government estimates. And 68 percent of the army’s equipment is so old, it is officially considered “vintage.”

“Our troops lack modern equipment, but they have to conduct 21st-century military operations,” said Gaurav Gogoi, a lawmaker and member of the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defense.

American officials tasked with strengthening the alliance talk about their mission with frustration: a swollen bureaucracy makes arms sales and joint training exercises cumbersome; Indian forces are vastly underfunded; and the country’s navy, army and air force tend to compete rather than work together.

Whatever the problems, the United States is determined to make the country a key ally in the coming years to hedge against China’s growing regional ambition.

Last year, when Defense Secretary Jim Mattis announced that the Pentagon was renaming its Pacific Command — to Indo-Pacific — he emphasized India’s importance in a shifting world order.

“It is our primary combatant command,” said Mr. Mattis, who left the Pentagon at the end of the year. “It’s standing watch and intimately engaged with over half of the earth’s surface and its diverse populations, from Hollywood to Bollywood.”

The American military began prioritizing its alliance with India as its close relationship with Pakistan soured over the last two decades. United States officials are concerned that Pakistan is not doing enough to fight terrorism, a charge the country denies.

In just a decade, United States arms sales to India have gone from nearly zero to $15 billion. But Pakistan can still draw on a powerful American-supplied arsenal.

Indian officials say Pakistan used one of its F-16 fighter jets to down its MiG-21 last week. Islamabad rejected the claim, but on Sunday the American Embassy in Islamabad said the United States was looking into the report. The offensive use of an F-16 warplane against its neighbor might have been a violation of the sales agreement.

“We are aware of these reports and are seeking more information,” the embassy said in a statement. “We take all allegations of misuse of defense articles very seriously.”

However troubled its military, India holds an obvious strategic appeal to the United States by virtue of both its location and its size.

India will soon become the world’s most populous country, on track to surpass China by 2024. It shares a long border with southern and western China and controls important territorial waters Beijing needs for its maritime trade routes.

All that can help the United States try to box in its rival.

“India’s sheer demographics, its long-term military potential, its geographic expanse — it makes India worth waiting for,” said Jeff Smith, a research fellow for South Asia at the Heritage Foundation in Washington and the author of “Cold Peace: China-India Rivalry in the 21st Century.”

“As China rises and the United States fights to keep its dominance, it will need a swing state to tip the balance of power in the 21st century,” Mr. Smith said. “And that swing state is India. The United States knows this and is willing to be patient.”

For India’s military, funding remains the biggest challenge.

In 2018, India announced a military budget of some $45 billion. By comparison, China’s military budget that year was $175 billion. Last month, Delhi announced another $45 billion budget.

It is not just a question of how much India spends on its military, but how it spends it.

The majority of the money goes to salaries for its 1.2 million active duty troops, as well as pensions. Only $14 billion will be used to buy new hardware.

“At a time when modern armies are investing hugely on upgrading their intelligence and technical capabilities, we need to be doing the same,” said Mr. Gogoi, the Parliament member.

Unlike China, where an authoritarian government is free to set military policy as it wishes, India is a democracy, with all the messiness that can entail.

Cutting troop levels so that the military can spend the money on buying modern equipment is not so simple. India’s military has long been a source of jobs for a country struggling with chronic underemployment. That is likely to be a big issue in elections scheduled for later this spring.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi won elections in 2014 promising to reform the economy and provide the one million jobs needed each month to satisfy its growing work force. But with elections around the corner, Mr. Modi has shelved promises of economic reform and embraced the usual populist measures.

“The thrust of this government is to focus more on economic development, which has to precede military strength,” said Amit Cowshish, a former defense ministry financial adviser for military acquisitions. “That was what China did — they focused on developing their economy and then focused on acquiring their current military stature. The difference is that China started 20 or 30 years ahead of us in terms of economic liberalization.”

Government officials in New Delhi say they are struggling to improve the lives of their citizens in the most basic of ways — dealing with high illiteracy rates and poor sanitation infrastructure, as just two examples — making it hard to funnel more money toward the military at a time when China is making incursions into India’s backyard by land and sea.

China has significantly outpaced its rival, creating a robust and taxable middle class. China’s economic boom has allowed it to invest aggressively in buying top military hardware and producing it at home.

As the world’s conflicts are increasingly fought with state-of-the-art weaponry rather than the large invading armies of the past, India is falling behind. Despite being the fifth-largest military spender, only about a quarter of its military budget this year will purchase new equipment.

Although the purchase of military hardware is a slow-moving process in most countries, in India it moves even more sluggishly amid a swollen bureaucracy.

There are also concerns about corruption.

Mr. Modi is currently being grilled by the opposition over a murky $8.9 billion deal to buy 36 Rafale fighter planes from France. His political opponents have cast the agreement as corrupt in an effort to discredit him ahead of elections.

The purchase will help India replace its aging fleet of MiG-21s and other jets. And on Saturday, the prime minister tried to turn the tables on the opposition, saying India would have fared better in its skirmish with Pakistan last week if it had had the Rafale jets.

“The country has felt the shortage of Rafale,” Mr. Modi said.
 
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Most worrying aspect in this article is that it says India is set to be the most populous nation in the world by 2024.... what is war mongerer chai wala Modi doing about that? Shouldn't he focus his energies more on fixing this issue rather than picking fights with Pak and getting a bloody nose.
 
Most worrying aspect in this article is that it says India is set to be the most populous nation in the world by 2024.... what is war mongerer chai wala Modi doing about that? Shouldn't he focus his energies more on fixing this issue rather than picking fights with Pak and getting a bloody nose.

He has made Indians believe that altering the course of rivers is more important than feeding the poor.
 
For a moment when I read the title it said NY Times I thought the article was legit. Then I saw the Author's name and realised the POWER of the UMMAH... :P lol..
 
For a moment when I read the title it said NY Times I thought the article was legit. Then I saw the Author's name and realised the POWER of the UMMAH... :P lol..

Yes because Published pieces in THE NY TIMES are written, edited, reviewed and made live to an audience in isolation :14: :14: :14:........... :facepalm:
 
Yes because Published pieces in THE NY TIMES are written, edited, reviewed and made live to an audience in isolation :14: :14: :14:........... :facepalm:

Yeahh Nahh,, sorry cant take the article seriously lol.... You can though if it makes you feel better... :)
 
Yeahh Nahh,, sorry cant take the article seriously lol.... You can though if it makes you feel better... :)

I never defended the credibility of the article, I just pointed out the idiocy of your claim that this was published to appease our part of the Ummah since the editor has a muslim name. The credibility of the article can only be questions based on the methods used in fact finding from the research personnel of NY Times and in specific the people who researched for this particular story.

If you have any quantifiable evidence which negates the fact-finding tool used to conjure this piece then only can we actually question the credibility while being credible ourselves. However, I am not surprised by how you approached the thread because, lets be honest here, fact finding is an alien concept on your side of the border I guess......
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">I thought I knew trolling and then ... there was India twitter. Good grief, even the jihadis of the Middle East were not this relentless when us reporters exposed ISIS atrocities.</p>— Maria Abi-Habib (@Abihabib) <a href="https://twitter.com/Abihabib/status/1102431045159407617?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 4, 2019</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>


:))
 
I never defended the credibility of the article, I just pointed out the idiocy of your claim that this was published to appease our part of the Ummah since the editor has a muslim name. The credibility of the article can only be questions based on the methods used in fact finding from the research personnel of NY Times and in specific the people who researched for this particular story.

If you have any quantifiable evidence which negates the fact-finding tool used to conjure this piece then only can we actually question the credibility while being credible ourselves. However, I am not surprised by how you approached the thread because, lets be honest here, fact finding is an alien concept on your side of the border I guess......

“Our troops lack modern equipment, but they have to conduct 21st-century military operations,” said Gaurav Gogoi, a lawmaker and member of the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defense.

Gaurav bhai, another well-known member of the 'Ummah' :13:
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">I thought I knew trolling and then ... there was India twitter. Good grief, even the jihadis of the Middle East were not this relentless when us reporters exposed ISIS atrocities.</p>— Maria Abi-Habib (@Abihabib) <a href="https://twitter.com/Abihabib/status/1102431045159407617?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 4, 2019</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>


:))

Think shes talking about the likes of Mr. Roti and Joshila. :yk
 
“Our troops lack modern equipment, but they have to conduct 21st-century military operations,” said Gaurav Gogoi, a lawmaker and member of the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defense.

Gaurav bhai, another well-known member of the 'Ummah' :13:

I guess he's also a deep state recruit directly handled by Major Adnan Sami........
 
This reminds me of the business strategy

1. Create an issue out of thin air (a flawed popula rhetoric)
2. Fan the issue and create a lot of propaganda about an arbitrary problem that doesn't really exist
3. Propose a solution of the issue that's totally beneficial to you
4. Fan the solution and make it sound credible and worth investing in
5. Sell your solution at a very high price
6. Buy and island and party while the consumers struggle to meet your price
7. Rinse.
8. Repeat
 
Ill be honest. The NYT is a horrible newspaper especially when it comes to news about Pakistan. Its analysis of South asian geopolitics is as poor as most western publications.

This article is no different. "Vintage?" does the author realise that 75% of India's military capability is directed towards Pakistan and as we saw in the Balakot episode we werent facing any vintage weaponry. If his idea of Vintage is the SU30 MKI , upgraded mirage 2000's and MI17V5 EW helicopters then perhaps he needs to do some research. The MIG21 has isreali avionics installed on it and is highly manuevarable. A recent quote from the squadron leader who shot down the MIG says "I thought he would give me a hard time like our F7PGs as CCC but he was in my sights within 6 seconds" this has more to do with the skill of the pilot/ war environment than the equipment.

Do you think the Pakistan armed forces see's Indias forces as vintage? hardly..

This is just another signal that the US will now look to further modernise the Indian armed forces and try to hinder our progress and detterrence..

They may have 200 MIG's but they wont be sending all of them at us for goodness sake..we were facing their best..not some ghuda garis!!
 
India got whooped in this conflict.

In air combat, diplomacy, tv and social media pretty much everywhere.

I personally made piece with this sad fact and moved on. I feel secure and peaceful now.

Those who still live in denial are only making life more difficult for themselves and coming across as sour grapes.

If you love to celebrate victories you should also be willing to accept failures.

Given the numerical and economic superiority over Pakistan, even a stalemate is an embarrassment for India and we are talking about a beat down here in broad daylight.

They downed our planes. They captured our guy, kept him as a trophy and pulled off a diplomatic masterstroke by releasing him safe embarrassing us further in front of the world.

At the end of this conflict, the world looks at India as a mad country with no grace. On the other hand, Pakistan's stature as a military power and responsible nation has been elevated.

No matter what Imran says, he is the biggest contender for noble peace prize.

India should be ashamed of the state of leadership and armed forces in their country. Serious questions need to be asked from IAF and GOI both of whom should be held seriously responsible for the facade.
 
They downed our planes. They captured our guy, kept him as a trophy and pulled off a diplomatic masterstroke by releasing him safe embarrassing us further in front of the world.

They down our planes:

No, correction they downed a MIG 21 Bison, if you can show proof they downed the Sukhoi, show it.

They Captured our guy:

They did..
 
They down our planes:

No, correction they downed a MIG 21 Bison, if you can show proof they downed the Sukhoi, show it.

They Captured our guy:

They did..

For a country that boasted of its military might to now be arguing against the international narrative going entirely against them, that alone is embarrassment.

For all that we were told about Indian superiority, Pakistan should have been made to run to UN for ceasefire. Instead here we are now, having put the white flags up after negotiating release of one soldier.

Our PM literally admitting defeat by saying things would have been different if we had Rafale jets. What an absolute idiot. If he cannot say something smart, can he not simply shut up for a while?

As a tax payers, we have full right to question GOI, IAF for their shambolic performance.
 
For a country that boasted of its military might to now be arguing against the international narrative going entirely against them, that alone is embarrassment.

It was a major embarrassment and arrogance by the Indians to send out the Bisons, they totally underestimated the Pakistanis and were found out... MIG 21s should be in a museum not a battle field.

For all that we were told about Indian superiority, Pakistan should have been made to run to UN for ceasefire. Instead here we are now, having put the white flags up after negotiating release of one soldier.

Indians are superior in military, you would be a fool to think otherwise. Even Pakistanis would agree even though their emotions may not allow it at the time. The release of Abhinandhan was done because the Indians were getting ready to retaliate. Think about it, the entire Pakistani airport was shut down, there was complete black outs in their cities, they knew an Indian retaliation was coming and it would have been horrific. Imran played the one card he had which was Abhinandhan and saved the day....


Our PM literally admitting defeat by saying things would have been different if we had Rafale jets. What an absolute idiot. If he cannot say something smart, can he not simply shut up for a while?

Rafale was more of a political statement, there has been plenty of controversy surrounding it raised by Congress with a bofors like scam which was one of the reasons for the delay in acquiring them.. However agreed,, a statement like that at that time was stupid...

As a tax payers, we have full right to question GOI, IAF for their shambolic performance.

Performance issue was due to an ancient piece of military hardware that should have been retired 20 years ago..

Bold..
 
India got whooped in this conflict.

In air combat, diplomacy, tv and social media pretty much everywhere.

I personally made piece with this sad fact and moved on. I feel secure and peaceful now.

Those who still live in denial are only making life more difficult for themselves and coming across as sour grapes.

If you love to celebrate victories you should also be willing to accept failures.

Given the numerical and economic superiority over Pakistan, even a stalemate is an embarrassment for India and we are talking about a beat down here in broad daylight.

They downed our planes. They captured our guy, kept him as a trophy and pulled off a diplomatic masterstroke by releasing him safe embarrassing us further in front of the world.

At the end of this conflict, the world looks at India as a mad country with no grace. On the other hand, Pakistan's stature as a military power and responsible nation has been elevated.

No matter what Imran says, he is the biggest contender for noble peace prize.

India should be ashamed of the state of leadership and armed forces in their country. Serious questions need to be asked from IAF and GOI both of whom should be held seriously responsible for the facade.

Summarized well. It has been a PR disaster for India as well from start to finish. I heard there have been protests in Assam against the army today.
 
I am still confused where is India's $50 billion defense budget going to?
 
In 2018, India announced a military budget of some $45 billion. By comparison, China’s military budget that year was $175 billion. Last month, Delhi announced another $45 billion budget.

It is not just a question of how much India spends on its military, but how it spends it.

The majority of the money goes to salaries for its 1.2 million active duty troops, as well as pensions. Only $14 billion will be used to buy new hardware.


...


From the article.
 
Lol these indians who are commenting on the article have no sharam. The world does not take India seriously as a military power, they are just nice to you because they wanna sell you stuff lol.
 
An opinion from an NYT writer means that the whole world agrees?

What kind of people are you? Were you not wetting yourself with glee that "international community supports India's stance against Pakistan"

Now when the same people write articles which show India in a bad light, all you can come up with is "An opinion from an NYT writer means that the whole world agrees?"

Next time when you post international opinion or verdicts - do remember this statement of yours.
 
What kind of people are you? Were you not wetting yourself with glee that "international community supports India's stance against Pakistan"

Now when the same people write articles which show India in a bad light, all you can come up with is "An opinion from an NYT writer means that the whole world agrees?"

Next time when you post international opinion or verdicts - do remember this statement of yours.

Support from the international community refers to statements from other countries. Surely you understand why a statement from the white house, the secratary of state, Australian minister for foreign affairs, etc matters a lot more than a a random NYT writer.
 
:))

India deserves this humiliation.

Worst planning.

Worst communication.

Horrible media.

What was wrong with the planning and communication? It was a covert counterterrorism operation, not a movie or a public spectacle. The military is not obligated to give out all the details to the public.
 
Support from the international community refers to statements from other countries. Surely you understand why a statement from the white house, the secratary of state, Australian minister for foreign affairs, etc matters a lot more than a a random NYT writer.

No they absolutely don't. On scrutiny, these countries statements reek of hypocrisy and therefore the World actually laughs at them. No doubt they are the bullies of the World but it does not mean that they are respected.

America's war on Iraq while at the same time supporting a dictatorship in Saudia Arabia exposes it as a country which is only looking to protect its interest and doesn't really give a damn about what is right and wrong.

BTW, CIA recently categorised RSS, VHP, Bajrang Dal as militant outfits, has India taken action against them? are its leaders arrested? have these militant groups stopped operating within India?
 
Absolutely pathetic by US to fuel an arms race by beefing up India against China, which in turn forces Pakistan to spend to maintain minimum deterrence.


US is the biggest war mongering country in the world. Their economy only runs if there are wars going on in the world. I hope some new leadership emerges in India that sees through this and instead directs some or most of the $45 billion they spend on arms towards social development.
 
For a moment when I read the title it said NY Times I thought the article was legit. Then I saw the Author's name and realised the POWER of the UMMAH... :P lol..

She is a French Canadian Journalist from Canada. Her last name is either due to step father or out of wedding lock I can't quite remember. She is the Asian expert. She is usually right and we are still sending flying tractors to fight that are falling down from the sky during fight or not.
 
Ill be honest. The NYT is a horrible newspaper especially when it comes to news about Pakistan. Its analysis of South asian geopolitics is as poor as most western publications.

This article is no different. "Vintage?" does the author realise that 75% of India's military capability is directed towards Pakistan and as we saw in the Balakot episode we werent facing any vintage weaponry. If his idea of Vintage is the SU30 MKI , upgraded mirage 2000's and MI17V5 EW helicopters then perhaps he needs to do some research. The MIG21 has isreali avionics installed on it and is highly manuevarable. A recent quote from the squadron leader who shot down the MIG says "I thought he would give me a hard time like our F7PGs as CCC but he was in my sights within 6 seconds" this has more to do with the skill of the pilot/ war environment than the equipment.

Do you think the Pakistan armed forces see's Indias forces as vintage? hardly..

This is just another signal that the US will now look to further modernise the Indian armed forces and try to hinder our progress and detterrence..

They may have 200 MIG's but they wont be sending all of them at us for goodness sake..we were facing their best..not some ghuda garis!!

agree. looks like a planted story to get India to spend more money on buying military stuff which will help West arms dealers. would not be surprised that there are Indians also in this plan to make money on commission.
 
What was wrong with the planning and communication? It was a covert counterterrorism operation, not a movie or a public spectacle. The military is not obligated to give out all the details to the public.

I don't even know where to begin with such a question.

To keep it short....

1. You either release proof or clearly state when you are going to release it.

2. If you are not going to release it, that's upto you. Same way, don't blame people if they get frustrated watching the whole world mock us in this saga. Especially after a painful incident like Pulwama.

3. My beef is with govt as opposed to military. The flip-flops are embarassing.

4. Military says we will let govt decide. Another guy from govt says goal of this operation was to show our capability to strike. Not Kill. Now Amit Shah says 250 killed.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/ami...ver-250-killed-no-official-figure-yet-2002182

Do you see how RIDICULOUS this looks even excluding the absolute beizatti we are having with western media pieces calling it an embarassing episode for us?

I would be THRILLED to see proof of terrorists being killed. But where is it?

The truth is that....this is a PERCEPTION battle. The reason why no one raised a voice against India when we invaded their airspace was because of PERCEPTION.

Even the primary goal of invading Pak airspace was to show them we are not afraid of taking action. Again perception battle.

And that is a battle we lost.

And we haven't even proved we won the counter-terrorism battle.

Don't even get me started on Mig 21. I am absolutely livid by how we give our pilots substandard jets which in turn cause massive national embarassment. We were expecting their attack and still used Mig 21. And then Modi is busy with his political Rafale comments.

Absolute circus this has been.

What was needed was a cold, calculative, well planned and coordinated approach for everything. What we got was a mess.

No wonder the world is sniggering.
 
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^Had we clearly stated we set out to achieve xyz but instead abc happened, it would have been very forthcoming even if we didn't achieve much in terms of kill.

With proper jets to intercept Pak fighters the whole PR game would have shifted.

---
 
O yaar stop the dick measuring contests..


While we do it, innocent kashmiris on both sides are dying.. its high time both india and pakistan come to the table and settle this once and for all. Nahi to ye drama baazi chalti rahey gi.. we won this time, india may get the upper hand the next time.. there is just no end to it... apas mein lar lar ker mar jao. Its effing ridiculous that the two supposedly educated and nuclearized nations of the world are still fighting.. this honestly should have been settled long time ago and by now we should have been on friendly terms.. there is nothing to gain from this bitter rivarly.. the whole region and the world, in fact, is worst off with us fighting.
 
Seriously, Indian public must come and stop this WAR. Modi is more worried about Pakistan existence then worrying about Indian common people problems. India need more hospitals, More Homes, commiting suicide ratios is unbelievably high in India, instead pulling the nation out of Poverty, money is being wasted on buying arms, and spreading hate amongst communities in india is highest at the moment, more than it was during 2002 gujrat riots in india. Modi is someone need to be thrown away from power in India, he hasn’t done anything significant for Indian janta in his 4 yrs term apart from hate spread and making hindu hates muslims in india more than ever, Atal Bahari Vajpyee was a good man, last and most accomplished leader of BJP.
 
In 2018, India announced a military budget of some $45 billion. By comparison, China’s military budget that year was $175 billion. Last month, Delhi announced another $45 billion budget.

It is not just a question of how much India spends on its military, but how it spends it.

The majority of the money goes to salaries for its 1.2 million active duty troops, as well as pensions. Only $14 billion will be used to buy new hardware.


...


From the article.

Then there is a guy on PP who tell us every day that Pakistan military spend so much on itself.

45 billion is a lot of money being wasted on something that could be solved with dialogues, Amazing how stupid human being can be when it comes to defend his ego.
 
:))

India deserves this humiliation.

Worst planning.

Worst communication.

Horrible media.

Not sure this is a "humiliation". A 1960's era plane shot down doesn't amount to much.


[MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION]

probably got in on the act too :uakmal

Thanks for bringing this thread to my attention :))

A bit of a blunder by India, choosing the wrong means of engaging Pakistan. The three decent weapons Pakistan has are F-16s, missiles and nukes. Its weakness are its land forces (no modern tanks) and its Navy. India should have engaged the Pakistani Army (a land attack) or the Pakistani Navy, rather than the F-16s if it felt it had to retaliate for Pulwama.

Anyway, you should ask why the Indian pilot was released when the hostilities are still going on, and there has been no ceasefire. Releasing POWs while the war is still on is completely unheard of. It is as if Pakistan is desperately trying to avoid an escalation. The option of whether to continue or not still lies with India though.

Anyway, there are no victors in a war. A dead enemy soldier is no compensation for a son lost. So let's hope all killings stop.
 
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Not sure this is a "humiliation". A 1960's era plane shot down doesn't amount to much.




Thanks for bringing this thread to my attention :))

A bit of a blunder by India, choosing the wrong means of engaging Pakistan. The three decent weapons Pakistan has are F-16s, missiles and nukes. Its weakness are its land forces (no modern tanks) and its Navy. India should have engaged the Pakistani Army (a land attack) or the Pakistani Navy, rather than the F-16s if it felt it had to retaliate for Pulwama.

Anyway, you should ask why the Indian pilot was released when the hostilities are still going on, and there has been no ceasefire. Releasing POWs while the war is still on is completely unheard of. It is as if Pakistan is desperately trying to avoid an escalation. The option of whether to continue or not still lies with India though.

Anyway, there are no victors in a war. A dead enemy soldier is no compensation for a son lost. So let's hope all killings stop.
Thats a typical jala kata response. You yourself say there ahould be no more killing but pakistan released the pilot, its not because they sincerely want no more war and killings, its because they are “desperate” to not eacalate.

Like i said.. upper uoper se sab peace ki baatein kartey hein lekan wang measuring contest se koi baaz nahi ata! Some of our people are like kids at school trying to act like their favorite WWE stars!
 
Thats a typical jala kata response. You yourself say there ahould be no more killing but pakistan released the pilot, its not because they sincerely want no more war and killings, its because they are “desperate” to not eacalate.

Like i said.. upper uoper se sab peace ki baatein kartey hein lekan wang measuring contest se koi baaz nahi ata! Some of our people are like kids at school trying to act like their favorite WWE stars!

If the goal is the least amount of killings, then behavior guided by "incentive compatibility" requires responding to attacks. If there was no response to Pulwama, then there would be many more Pulwamas. So responding to the Pulwama attack with a war is not inconsistent with a desire for the least amount of killings (or peace).
 
If the goal is the least amount of killings, then behavior guided by "incentive compatibility" requires responding to attacks. If there was no response to Pulwama, then there would be many more Pulwamas. So responding to the Pulwama attack with a war is not inconsistent with a desire for peace.
Well since you want to go down that road, perhaps your focus should be more internally fixing the situation in kashmir first before you start conducting so called surgical strikes at your neighbors. The pulwama affair was a failure of your local intelligence and response and then in your government’s khisyanapun, you start killing and raping your own people.

you cant claim your government is absolutely clean in all this. They have made missteps after missteps and now end up with egg in your face. Its time to learn your lesson and get your priorities right.
 
If the goal is the least amount of killings, then behavior guided by "incentive compatibility" requires responding to attacks. If there was no response to Pulwama, then there would be many more Pulwamas. So responding to the Pulwama attack with a war is not inconsistent with a desire for the least amount of killings (or peace).

Currently there is a stand off between Indian military and freedom fighters.

Seen plenty of video where Indian soldiers were crying.

If anyone believe for a second that freedom struggle in Kashmir would stop just because India had managed to kill unarmed trees and sand across the LoC then that person is a fool.

Pakistan will do whatever it takes for the optics but it will not stop supporting freedom fighter unless there is a solution.

And, no!, India can't afford a full fledged war with Pakistan.
 
There should be no killing.. there is no way you can justify “least amount of killing” absolutely rubbish notion!
 
There should be no killing.. there is no way you can justify “least amount of killing” absolutely rubbish notion!

You think that 1,000 dead is the same at 10,000 dead? In WWII, the number of people who died was 60,000,000. If the Allies had attacked Germany in 1935, no more than 60,000 would have died.
 
You think that 1,000 dead is the same at 10,000 dead? In WWII, the number of people who died was 60,000,000. If the Allies had attacked Germany in 1935, no more than 60,000 would have died.

O bhai killing can never be justified. We still curse the nazis. Dont be like nazis.. either side. We can settlemthis through dialogue. Aap killing kabhi justify nahi ker saktey.
 
I see there are still some deluded individuals who believe that they can have hegemony over Pakistan and come out winner if there was a war between two countries.

India is not capable of destroying Pakistan without the destruction of itself.
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Credible sources in Pakistani govt. confirm that Israelis were present in Rajasthan, as part of an Indian plan, on 27th Feb, to launch missile attacks against Pakistan. Pakistani Army & Intelligence alerted Govt. & Indians were warned of bigger response; Indians then called off</p>— Moeed Pirzada (@MoeedNj) <a href="https://twitter.com/MoeedNj/status/1102558903869542401?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 4, 2019</a></blockquote>
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This guy is one of the most credible journalist in Pakistan, if he says so I can accept with a great degree of confidence.



We need to deploy back channels and let Israel know what we feel about this. I so wish we had an aircraft carrier which we could go and station outside puny little Israel in times like these. Make Holocaust 2.0 come true.
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Credible sources in Pakistani govt. confirm that Israelis were present in Rajasthan, as part of an Indian plan, on 27th Feb, to launch missile attacks against Pakistan. Pakistani Army & Intelligence alerted Govt. & Indians were warned of bigger response; Indians then called off</p>— Moeed Pirzada (@MoeedNj) <a href="https://twitter.com/MoeedNj/status/1102558903869542401?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 4, 2019</a></blockquote>
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This guy is one of the most credible journalist in Pakistan, if he says so I can accept with a great degree of confidence.



We need to deploy back channels and let Israel know what we feel about this. I so wish we had an aircraft carrier which we could go and station outside puny little Israel in times like these. Make Holocaust 2.0 come true.

I think its nonsense. Its embarrassing we have stooped to the depths of Indian media. Iran is also making threats, I mean its not like Iran and Israel would team up.

Israel is too busy killing people with plastic toys in Gaza right now nor has it provoked us. I think our media couldn't resist the ultimate glorification of how we bought down the enemy who collaborated with the 'Jews'.

It is also time to make headway with Israel, the Arabs are warming up to them. From military tech to equipment know-how, it can only benefit us. If we are waiting for Palestine issue to be solved we will be waiting a long time.
 
I think its nonsense. Its embarrassing we have stooped to the depths of Indian media. Iran is also making threats, I mean its not like Iran and Israel would team up.

Israel is too busy killing people with plastic toys in Gaza right now nor has it provoked us. I think our media couldn't resist the ultimate glorification of how we bought down the enemy who collaborated with the 'Jews'.

It is also time to make headway with Israel, the Arabs are warming up to them. From military tech to equipment know-how, it can only benefit us. If we are waiting for Palestine issue to be solved we will be waiting a long time.

Different news channels were reporting the same thing today. I won't put it beyond Israel and even USA, they have tried this tactic before.

Pakistan and Israel can never have cordial relationship. Both are antithesis of each other.
 
Different news channels were reporting the same thing today. I won't put it beyond Israel and even USA, they have tried this tactic before.

Pakistan and Israel can never have cordial relationship. Both are antithesis of each other.

Different channels reporting the same thing doesn't mean much. Otherwise the garbage coming out of the Indian media and their hundred channels would be true?

Its a lie, nothing else, based on absolutely zero proof.
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The nation salutes also the other Pak Air Force superstar, Wing Commander Nauman Ali Khan who destroyed the other Indian Air Force MIG that crashed on Indian side.⚡⚡������<br><br>PAF fighter pilots are world-best and rightly renowned globally since long.✌��<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/PakHonorsHasanSiddiqui?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#PakHonorsHasanSiddiqui</a> <a href="https://t.co/JTXEE1Q6Yw">pic.twitter.com/JTXEE1Q6Yw</a></p>— Zartaj Gul Wazir (@zartajgulwazir) <a href="https://twitter.com/zartajgulwazir/status/1102615019727011841?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 4, 2019</a></blockquote>
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Correction: He shot down an SU-30, not MIG.</p>— Zartaj Gul Wazir (@zartajgulwazir) <a href="https://twitter.com/zartajgulwazir/status/1102619851846238214?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 4, 2019</a></blockquote>
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Ok now a sitting minister is talking about, surely she has access to more intel than you and me.
 
agree. looks like a planted story to get India to spend more money on buying military stuff which will help West arms dealers. would not be surprised that there are Indians also in this plan to make money on commission.

Cynical but lends credence. US want to first sell F-16s rebranded as F-21s and then maybe F-35s in the next 10-15 eyars (when it is halfway done its lifespan). Also to muscle French out of any further militray contracts.
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Credible sources in Pakistani govt. confirm that Israelis were present in Rajasthan, as part of an Indian plan, on 27th Feb, to launch missile attacks against Pakistan. Pakistani Army & Intelligence alerted Govt. & Indians were warned of bigger response; Indians then called off</p>— Moeed Pirzada (@MoeedNj) <a href="https://twitter.com/MoeedNj/status/1102558903869542401?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 4, 2019</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>




This guy is one of the most credible journalist in Pakistan, if he says so I can accept with a great degree of confidence.



We need to deploy back channels and let Israel know what we feel about this. I so wish we had an aircraft carrier which we could go and station outside puny little Israel in times like these. Make Holocaust 2.0 come true.

he is credible but this time it looks like rubbish,
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The nation salutes also the other Pak Air Force superstar, Wing Commander Nauman Ali Khan who destroyed the other Indian Air Force MIG that crashed on Indian side.⚡⚡������<br><br>PAF fighter pilots are world-best and rightly renowned globally since long.✌��<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/PakHonorsHasanSiddiqui?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#PakHonorsHasanSiddiqui</a> <a href="https://t.co/JTXEE1Q6Yw">pic.twitter.com/JTXEE1Q6Yw</a></p>— Zartaj Gul Wazir (@zartajgulwazir) <a href="https://twitter.com/zartajgulwazir/status/1102615019727011841?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 4, 2019</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>




<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Correction: He shot down an SU-30, not MIG.</p>— Zartaj Gul Wazir (@zartajgulwazir) <a href="https://twitter.com/zartajgulwazir/status/1102619851846238214?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 4, 2019</a></blockquote>
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Ok now a sitting minister is talking about, surely she has access to more intel than you and me.

and somehow, the captured pilot abhinand is in a documentry about su 30 mki made by indians here is a link.

 
For a country that boasted of its military might to now be arguing against the international narrative going entirely against them, that alone is embarrassment.

For all that we were told about Indian superiority, Pakistan should have been made to run to UN for ceasefire. Instead here we are now, having put the white flags up after negotiating release of one soldier.

Our PM literally admitting defeat by saying things would have been different if we had Rafale jets. What an absolute idiot. If he cannot say something smart, can he not simply shut up for a while?

As a tax payers, we have full right to question GOI, IAF for their shambolic performance.

I heard that the Indian Air Force chief has been let go because of this debacle.
 
I think its nonsense. Its embarrassing we have stooped to the depths of Indian media. Iran is also making threats, I mean its not like Iran and Israel would team up.

Israel is too busy killing people with plastic toys in Gaza right now nor has it provoked us. I think our media couldn't resist the ultimate glorification of how we bought down the enemy who collaborated with the 'Jews'.

It is also time to make headway with Israel, the Arabs are warming up to them. From military tech to equipment know-how, it can only benefit us. If we are waiting for Palestine issue to be solved we will be waiting a long time.

Iran-Contra
 
I heard that the Indian Air Force chief has been let go because of this debacle.

----

As per IAF norms, a member of the force retires at three ages – 58, 60 or 62. The rule says that when an officer turns 58 or 60 and is not able to get a higher rank by the end of the month of his birthday, the officer will retire. According to 7th Pay Commission News, an Air Marshal retires at the age of 60, following the aforementioned rule.

Air Marshal Hari Kumar turned 60 years old in February, and as per the rule, he retired on 28 February, which was his due date of retirement.

-----

https://www.thequint.com/news/webqoof/air-marshal-hari-kumar-retired-not-sacked-fake-news-fact-check
 
Not sure this is a "humiliation". A 1960's era plane shot down doesn't amount to much.




Thanks for bringing this thread to my attention :))

A bit of a blunder by India, choosing the wrong means of engaging Pakistan. The three decent weapons Pakistan has are F-16s, missiles and nukes. Its weakness are its land forces (no modern tanks) and its Navy. India should have engaged the Pakistani Army (a land attack) or the Pakistani Navy, rather than the F-16s if it felt it had to retaliate for Pulwama.

Anyway, you should ask why the Indian pilot was released when the hostilities are still going on, and there has been no ceasefire. Releasing POWs while the war is still on is completely unheard of. It is as if Pakistan is desperately trying to avoid an escalation. The option of whether to continue or not still lies with India though.

Anyway, there are no victors in a war. A dead enemy soldier is no compensation for a son lost. So let's hope all killings stop.


#1. We chose to send flying tractors to attack Pakistan and got whooped.
#2. Us having superior tanks is pretty much useless since the terrain is not suitable for tanks. Tanks will give away position of our soldiers, most of the scrimmishes in LOC is hidden and just blind firing. Tanks are bad idea here.
#3 Indian soldiers are familiar with Indian side of LOC and vice versa for both. As soon as the other crosses into the other's area it is a death zone.
#4 We do have better NAVY, but naval ships are large and they move slow. Can be easily sunk from far. A War ship is not a smart idea here.

You clearly don't know what you are talking about. I suggest you don't mention "would have, could have, should have" with war strategies.

Not sure why you believe Pak is being desperate, it is modiji who is desperate to show he is a tough man with election coming up and few beaten he received in last few bi-elections. Imran doesn't give a ****, he is a sane politician, doesn't seem corrupt, he was the biggest celebrity in Pakistan, he could have been something else if he wanted to and chose to be a Pakistani politician. He ousted two major political families. On the other hand, Modi is a typical politician. Anymore escalation is pretty stupid. Move on. More people don't need to die here. The problem is in Kashmir, not Pakistan.
 
If the goal is the least amount of killings, then behavior guided by "incentive compatibility" requires responding to attacks. If there was no response to Pulwama, then there would be many more Pulwamas. So responding to the Pulwama attack with a war is not inconsistent with a desire for the least amount of killings (or peace).

If your logic was true there would be no Pulwana after the fictitious 2016 surgical strikes
 
#2. Us having superior tanks is pretty much useless since the terrain is not suitable for tanks. Tanks will give away position of our soldiers, most of the scrimmishes in LOC is hidden and just blind firing. Tanks are bad idea here.

You have no imagination. There is enough terrain suitable for tanks, not necessarily in Kashmir, there is also Punjab.

#3 Indian soldiers are familiar with Indian side of LOC and vice versa for both. As soon as the other crosses into the other's area it is a death zone.

Following your logic, I suppose we should never have gone into Bangladesh in 1971.

#4 We do have better NAVY, but naval ships are large and they move slow. Can be easily sunk from far. A War ship is not a smart idea here.

Again a total absence of imagination.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Trident_(1971)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Python

You clearly don't know what you are talking about. I suggest you don't mention "would have, could have, should have" with war strategies.

Yeah, whatever. Waste of time engaging someone like you, no more replies from me, bye.
 
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If your logic was true there would be no Pulwana after the fictitious 2016 surgical strikes

I did not say once was enough. Anyway, this is rather simple logic, nothing to be argued about. If there is no threat of retaliation, then the attacks will increase.
 
and somehow, the captured pilot abhinand is in a documentry about su 30 mki made by indians here is a link.


Not sure if we can extrapolate much from this. There is also a PAF advert doing the rounds where Hassan Siddiqui is (supposedly) getting into an F-16.

There are some reports that Hassan and Abhinandan are trained to fly the F-16 and the SU-30 respectively, but were assigned the JF-17 and MiG-21 lately. Not sure if there are any legs to this though.

Nevertheless, if Abhinandan was actually flying the SU-30 on the day we downed him, we would have a bigger deal out of it and the wreckage of his plane would have been shown on tv.

No ones knows the truth, but for now, the most credible story seems to be that Hassan (JF-17) shot down Abhinandan (MiG-21).

As far as the SU-30 that we supposedly shot down, there is definitely some mystery there.

For starters, it took PAF/our media a good week to spill out WC Nauman Ali Khan’s name, and he has not received the nationwide recognition that Hassan Siddiqui has enjoyed, even though, his achievement is more significant (if we go by the SU-30 claim).

India’s claim of downing an F-16 needs to be taken with a barrel of salt, but our claim of downing an SU-30 also needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. There are plenty of gaps in the story.
 
I am still confused where is India's $50 billion defense budget going to?

a Lot of it goes to salaries, pensions, and upkeep of old equipment the NYT article talks about that.
 
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