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"No one knows the art of exploiting the new ball better than me" : Mohammad Asif

No. Check again. [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION]?

Rather then me prowling through his posts - why don't you step up and tell me what has Junaid said...

Eh, this is quite surreal. The court verdict explicitly states that Asif was less guilty than Butt, Majeed, and Amir, who bowled two no balls to Asif's one. Asif was also sentenced to the lowest fine among them.

:)) :)) what is surreal is that your go to argument is "Amir bowled two no balls & earned more money whilst Asif bowled one no ball & earned less money - therefore Asif isn't as big a spot fixer as Amir is". Talk about desperation :))

Oh are are we basing this on the sentence they got? In which case Amir got a shorter jail sentence the other 2 :13: Does that make the other two bigger sinners then Amir? Absolutely not!

The fact is that as far as the spot fixing scandal is concerned all three players are just as guilty as each other and deserved the punishment they got! Trying to defend one over the other because he "cheated less" or because he got a shorter jail sentence is fricking embarrassing.
 
Rather then me prowling through his posts - why don't you step up and tell me what has Junaid said...



:)) :)) what is surreal is that your go to argument is "Amir bowled two no balls & earned more money whilst Asif bowled one no ball & earned less money - therefore Asif isn't as big a spot fixer as Amir is". Talk about desperation :))

Oh are are we basing this on the sentence they got? In which case Amir got a shorter jail sentence the other 2 :13: Does that make the other two bigger sinners then Amir? Absolutely not!

The fact is that as far as the spot fixing scandal is concerned all three players are just as guilty as each other and deserved the punishment they got! Trying to defend one over the other because he "cheated less" or because he got a shorter jail sentence is fricking embarrassing.

Its much easier to argue against yourself than others, I'll grant you that.

Where did I say that Asif earned less money?

He earned no money.
 
To say whether they are true or not requires evidence, and for some there is such evidence, for others not.

What you *think* is not evidence.

I think ":))" is an indication of how comicalni think a lot of your arguments are :)

Ohhh Ok Donnie we are getting philosophical.

Let me as you then
:

Was Asif involved in Spot fixing?

Did he spot fox for the money?

Did he take performance enhancing drugs in 2006?

Did he get in a physical alteration with his Sam mates?

Did he get banned from the UAE for carrying suspect goods?

Did he get banned from the IPL for testing positive for steroids?

Those are pretty straight forward yes or no answers. Or do you think there is slot of ambiguity since Asif is being sabotaged against here?
 
[MENTION=3474]TalhaSyed[/MENTION]
I have written to the ICC for permission to upload their Determination which confirms that Asif was not paid or rewarded in any other way.

The original version was uploaded on the internet for 48 hours only, with a notice stating that reproduction would be Contempt of Court.

I don't want to relitigate the criminal trial, but it was a zoo. The two defendants who pleaded guilty compromised the defence of the two who did not, evidence from the prosecution appeared to imply the guilt of all four, and the black and white mainly female jury could not distinguish between Mohammad Amir (who pleaded guilty) and Mohammad Asif (who did not) or Mazhar Majeed (who pleaded guilty) and Mazhar Mahmood (who wasn't on trial and gave all the evidence).

The ICC Tribunal was three distinguished judges who found no evidence of Asif being paid or otherwise rewarded.

The criminal trial found him guilty of doing so in spite of being given no evidence of any such reward, and the journalists present generally believe that this was due to confusion between Amir (who had admitted it) and Asif.

The criminal appeal was even worse: an appellate judge read the court proceedings for one morning and took no evidence or submissions.

I believe what the ICC Tribunal found. Asif was guilty of bowling a no ball to order and was rightly banned for 5 years. But he did it due to endless pressure from his agent, which had a newspaper offering the agent £150,000 if he could make Amir and Asif fix. Amir did it for money. Asif refused and kept refusing but eventually gave in and did it for free because he thought by not taking any reward he couldn't be accused of taking bribes.

And that was the worst of the many mistakes in his life.
 
Rather then me prowling through his posts - why don't you step up and tell me what has Junaid said...



:)) :)) what is surreal is that your go to argument is "Amir bowled two no balls & earned more money whilst Asif bowled one no ball & earned less money - therefore Asif isn't as big a spot fixer as Amir is". Talk about desperation :))

Oh are are we basing this on the sentence they got? In which case Amir got a shorter jail sentence the other 2 :13: Does that make the other two bigger sinners then Amir? Absolutely not!

The fact is that as far as the spot fixing scandal is concerned all three players are just as guilty as each other and deserved the punishment they got! Trying to defend one over the other because he "cheated less" or because he got a shorter jail sentence is fricking embarrassing.

If you are not sure of what he wrote why did you so categorically claim that he had furnished no such evidence?
 
Its much easier to argue against yourself than others, I'll grant you that.

Where did I say that Asif earned less money?

He earned no money.

Oh yea - which reminds me - you never answered my question in post #137

So why did he bowl the no-ball?

Just for the fun of it? Because he thought it would be a good laugh?

Do you think Asif sold his country because Captain Butt asked him nicely? Or do you think he sold his country for a laugh?


Sure - no money was found on Asif - however you would be delusional to think he didn't do it for the money.

Here's what the court had to say to Asif:



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cr...ammad-Amir-jailed-judges-verdict-in-full.html
 
If you are not sure of what he wrote why did you so categorically claim that he had furnished no such evidence?

Ah it's ok man Junaid is here - I can discuss things directly with him now. You don't need to hide behind him saying "refer to Junaid's post" anymore. Run along :)
 
[MENTION=3474]TalhaSyed[/MENTION]
I have written to the ICC for permission to upload their Determination which confirms that Asif was not paid or rewarded in any other way.

The original version was uploaded on the internet for 48 hours only, with a notice stating that reproduction would be Contempt of Court.

I don't want to relitigate the criminal trial, but it was a zoo. The two defendants who pleaded guilty compromised the defence of the two who did not, evidence from the prosecution appeared to imply the guilt of all four, and the black and white mainly female jury could not distinguish between Mohammad Amir (who pleaded guilty) and Mohammad Asif (who did not) or Mazhar Majeed (who pleaded guilty) and Mazhar Mahmood (who wasn't on trial and gave all the evidence).

The ICC Tribunal was three distinguished judges who found no evidence of Asif being paid or otherwise rewarded.

The criminal trial found him guilty of doing so in spite of being given no evidence of any such reward, and the journalists present generally believe that this was due to confusion between Amir (who had admitted it) and Asif.

The criminal appeal was even worse: an appellate judge read the court proceedings for one morning and took no evidence or submissions.

I believe what the ICC Tribunal found. Asif was guilty of bowling a no ball to order and was rightly banned for 5 years. But he did it due to endless pressure from his agent, which had a newspaper offering the agent £150,000 if he could make Amir and Asif fix. Amir did it for money. Asif refused and kept refusing but eventually gave in and did it for free because he thought by not taking any reward he couldn't be accused of taking bribes.

And that was the worst of the many mistakes in his life.

Ah ok I get it.

Amir and Butt sold their country for money, meanwhile, Asif sold his country keep his agent happy?

And because it was a majority female jury & two guys named Mohammad - they got confused and the wrong Mohammad got sentenced?

Is that basically a summary of it?
 
[MENTION=3474]TalhaSyed[/MENTION] here are the answers to your questions.

Was Asif involved in Spot fixing?
No, but he bowled a no ball to order for the newspaper's fixer. It was a newspaper sting.

Did he spot fox for the money?
No. The ICC Tribunal makes this crystal clear.

Did he take performance enhancing drugs in 2006?
Yes, along with Shoaib Akhtar, but both were found NOT GUILTY.

Did he get in a physical alteration with his Sam mates?
Do you mean being hit with a bat by Shoaib Akhtar?

Did he get banned from the UAE for carrying suspect goods?
No. The charges were withdrawn so he was not convicted, and he is free to enter the UAE and already has done.

Did he get banned from the IPL for testing positive for steroids?
Yes. This is his only prior conviction, and he got the same 1 year ban as Shane Warne.[/QUOTE]
 
Can you please rephrase the first question please because in its current form it makes no sense :afaq Are you basically (again!) trying to say that Butt & Amir are more guilty then Asif but just in a round about way - yet (again!) still with no explanation or evidence?

I don't want Butt back in the team either since in my mind he also didn't show remorse and didn't apologies until he was told "if you don't apologies - you can't play cricket in Pakistan". However, at least he didn't go running his mouth, trash talking the current Pakistani openers.

Yes - due to the fact that Amir accepted his mistake early on, apologised early on, didn't drag the issue through court and took his punishment like a man rather than appeal against his punishment and try to plead innocent - I do have a soft spot for Amir. Compared to the other two, Amir showed a lot more remorse and dealt with matter much more maturely.

I know, I know "I don't buy into this lawyer BS...showing Amir as a kid BS... blah blah blah..." it doesn't matter if you buy into it or not - the facts are the facts.

PCB is finally showing some guts and giving Asif the treatment he deserves.

:)) :)) more desperation with pointless immature phrases, since you don't actually have a leg to stand on in defence of Asif. Please care to share any posts in which I have said that Shehzad should be in the team or praised his so-called 'talent'?

I guess not.

Just another desperate attempt by you to divert the subject to other players when the fact is that all your arguments regarding Asif are covered with flaws & bias since Asif is a talented bowler.

Again - you're stuck like a broken record

- You continue spewing BS about ISIS strategy. I point out your obvious desperation so you come back with "no - you're desperate" :facepalm: good come back mate

- I am taking things as you and Asif are presenting them. If you want what you are saying to be perceived differently then you should say it differently

- Again - how was Asif less guilty then Amir and Butt?

- Oh ok - so now not only is Asif not guilty of any of the sins he has committed, he is also not guilty of bashing potential team mates by claiming he's superior then all of them. Your posts just keep getting smarter and smarter

- Oh and I see you're sticking with the argument of "he was guilty, he was proven to be guilty, a lot of the time he even accepted being guilty - but he wasn't punished so he's not guilty....." Well his banishment from the team is his punishment and it's about time he got what he had coming.

All you're good for is making use of an ISIS strategy and spewing low grade garbage and insults after being exposed so resort to desperation, comeback blah blah you pointing bs like that out highlights your own desperation when unable to have a logical discussion or at least be consistent in your ideas :yk2 stop behaving like a child MATE :akhtar

Anyone with a brain knows that Butt and Amir guilt is greater then Asif, the evidence has supported this. He did not receive any payment. You're a hypocrite for having a soft spot for Amir because he just had a better lawyer then Asif, his guilt was greater; Amir did what we had to do in order to win sympathy and leniency. It doesn't make him an angel or better then Asif actually.
 
I think ":))" is an indication of how comicalni think a lot of your arguments are :)

Ohhh Ok Donnie we are getting philosophical.

Let me as you then
:



Did he spot fox for the money? No



All I have ever argued is that 1. his culpability in the spot fixing case was the least of all the defendants.
2. he could have made a plausible case for acting under duress, ie coercion.
 
[MENTION=3474]TalhaSyed[/MENTION]
I have written to the ICC for permission to upload their Determination which confirms that Asif was not paid or rewarded in any other way.

The original version was uploaded on the internet for 48 hours only, with a notice stating that reproduction would be Contempt of Court.

I don't want to relitigate the criminal trial, but it was a zoo. The two defendants who pleaded guilty compromised the defence of the two who did not, evidence from the prosecution appeared to imply the guilt of all four, and the black and white mainly female jury could not distinguish between Mohammad Amir (who pleaded guilty) and Mohammad Asif (who did not) or Mazhar Majeed (who pleaded guilty) and Mazhar Mahmood (who wasn't on trial and gave all the evidence).

The ICC Tribunal was three distinguished judges who found no evidence of Asif being paid or otherwise rewarded.

The criminal trial found him guilty of doing so in spite of being given no evidence of any such reward, and the journalists present generally believe that this was due to confusion between Amir (who had admitted it) and Asif.

The criminal appeal was even worse: an appellate judge read the court proceedings for one morning and took no evidence or submissions.

I believe what the ICC Tribunal found. Asif was guilty of bowling a no ball to order and was rightly banned for 5 years. But he did it due to endless pressure from his agent, which had a newspaper offering the agent £150,000 if he could make Amir and Asif fix. Amir did it for money. Asif refused and kept refusing but eventually gave in and did it for free because he thought by not taking any reward he couldn't be accused of taking bribes.

And that was the worst of the many mistakes in his life.

I thought you had a better legal mind than that Juniads, what I mean by that is if three men rob a bank but one decides not to take any money from the robbery is he still guilty of the crime?.
 
All you're good for is making use of an ISIS strategy and spewing low grade garbage and insults after being exposed so resort to desperation, comeback blah blah you pointing bs like that out highlights your own desperation when unable to have a logical discussion or at least be consistent in your ideas :yk2 stop behaving like a child MATE :akhtar

Anyone with a brain knows that Butt and Amir guilt is greater then Asif, the evidence has supported this. He did not receive any payment. You're a hypocrite for having a soft spot for Amir because he just had a better lawyer then Asif, his guilt was greater; Amir did what we had to do in order to win sympathy and leniency. It doesn't make him an angel or better then Asif actually.

Please show me where I insulted you or any other poster on this thread.

Please show me where you or anyone else "exposed me" on this thread

Please show me any facts to back anything you have to say because so far they have been severely lacking
 
Ah ok I get it.

Amir and Butt sold their country for money, meanwhile, Asif sold his country keep his agent happy?

And because it was a majority female jury & two guys named Mohammad - they got confused and the wrong Mohammad got sentenced?

Is that basically a summary of it?
Actually that's a pretty accurate summary.

Well done.

It doesn't make Asif innocent. He still bowled a no ball to order and was rightly banned for five years.

But the jury didn't even understand what a no ball was. Or the differences between two Mohammad's and two Mazhars.

Whereas the ICC Determination which banned them is a brilliantly written document by three very eminent judges without a jury.
 
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Ah it's ok man Junaid is here - I can discuss things directly with him now. You don't need to hide behind him saying "refer to Junaid's post" anymore. Run along :)

In other words you concede that you were lying when you wrote that he had posted no such evidence?
 
Please show me where I insulted you or any other poster on this thread.

Please show me where you or anyone else "exposed me" on this thread

Please show me any facts to back anything you have to say because so far they have been severely lacking

Yeah "run along now" was very classy.
 
[mention=3474]talhasyed[/mention] here are the answers to your questions.

Was asif involved in spot fixing?
No, but he bowled a no ball to order for the newspaper's fixer. It was a newspaper sting.

Did he spot fox for the money?
No. The icc tribunal makes this crystal clear.

Did he take performance enhancing drugs in 2006?
Yes, along with shoaib akhtar, but both were found not guilty.

Did he get in a physical alteration with his sam mates?
Do you mean being hit with a bat by shoaib akhtar?

Did he get banned from the uae for carrying suspect goods?
No. The charges were withdrawn so he was not convicted, and he is free to enter the uae and already has done.

Did he get banned from the ipl for testing positive for steroids?
Yes. This is his only prior conviction, and he got the same 1 year ban as shane warne.

Let's go through theses responses one by one.

1) He bowled a pre determined no ball - that is spot fixing. Therefore he was involved in spot fixing. Please do it try to cover it up or sugar coat it.

2) The ICC tribunal says they found no money on him. The jury said - and in my opinion what is the most logical explanation is:

30. Whilst no marked NOTW money was found in your possession, the jury have found that you conspired to accept money in the same way as your captain. You bowled a no ball in order to obtain payment and in order to assist others to cheat at gambling. If it was £10,000 for a no ball, you would have got a share of that sum, allowing for a cut for Salman Butt and Majeed. The sums of money of which others could have been defrauded, for the reasons I have already given cannot be accurately calculated.

Now if he hid it well enough for it not to be found or if he spent it before it could be found is a different story.

3) Asif and Akhtar were not found "not guilty", their bans were simply overturned by a spineless PCB much to the disman of WAPDA and the ICC. However, since it was the PCB who caught the two players the ICC couldn't do much. Again please do not try to sugar coat it

4) Yes the bat fight with Akhtar is exactly what I mean. But I guess over here we are assuming that Asif was standing in a corner quietly and Akhtar decided to hit him with a bat for the fun of it?

5) The charges were with regards to the UAE case were withdrawn due to "insignificance". The prosecutor, Mohammad Al Nuaimi, was quoted as saying, "It is definite that he committed the crime as he was caught red-handed ... however in certain cases and for a faster litigation process the Public Prosecution drops a case due to insignificance and deports the suspect."He was banned from entering UAE ever again." This ban was later overturned when the PCB appealed against it in 2011 since Pakistan was playing their home games in UAE, however Asif was banned from the UAE. Again please do it try to sugar coat it

6) I don't care about Shane Warne or what an Shane Warne got. The fact is once again Asif got banned. Please do not try to belittle the incident by making it sound like "other players have done it too"
 
Please show me where I insulted you or any other poster on this thread.

Please show me where you or anyone else "exposed me" on this thread

Please show me any facts to back anything you have to say because so far they have been severely lacking

#169 looks pretty squirm-worthy from you are encamped. if i may be permitted to hide behind [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION].

ill run along now.

lets not do this again some time.
 
Can we please all address each other courteously and respectfully in this thread?

I have no quibble with the people that I'm arguing with. They are rightly worried that Asif is a serial offender with both a cricket ban and a criminal conviction for the same offence.

And I half agree with [MENTION=3474]TalhaSyed[/MENTION].

Asif had a superb ICC Tribunal by eminent judges who understood cricket. It found that he bowled a no ball to order to try to stop endless pressure by his agent, who was going to earn £150,000 from the fix. But it also found that Asif refused to take money to do it. But he still bowled a no ball to order, and was rightly banned for five years.

But his criminal conviction for the same offence is arguably unsound and is being formally independently reviewed currently. There were major structural issues in jointly trying people who had pleaded guilty along with others who hadn't. The jury clearly struggled to understand cricket or the charges or even which Mohammad was which and which Mazhar was which.

And it ended up with one bizarre conviction, in which Asif was convicted of taking money for fixing even though the prosecution had not claimed that he did or provided evidence that he did. That is liking turning up to court for a traffic offence and leaving with a conviction for murdering somebody who isn't even dead. The chaos of the criminal trial led to a man being convicted of something without any evidence having been provided!

But that is the inherent danger of jury trials, especially in a field they do not understand, with defendants from an ethnic minority whose names are similar.
 
Actually that's a pretty accurate summary.

Well done.

It doesn't make Asif innocent. He still bowled a no ball to order and was rightly banned for five years.

But the jury didn't even understand what a no ball was. Or the differences between two Mohammad's and two Mazhars.

Whereas the ICC Determination which banned them is a brilliantly written document by three very eminent judges without a jury.

Through out this thread time and time again Shaz and NewYorker have said "refer to Junaid's post" & I was genuinely interested to hear what you had to say, since I was thinking it may be something which I hadn't thought of.

It's disappointing to see that all your defence for Asif boils down to is:

> They didn't find any money on Asif so he didn't take any money
> The jury was made of women who got easily confused

For me personally man that's not good enough.

I may be wrong - but that is not good enough to sway me.
 
#169 looks pretty squirm-worthy from you are encamped. if i may be permitted to hide behind [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION].

ill run along now.

lets not do this again some time.

Please refer to post #177

I apologise for telling you to run along. That was uncalled for :)
 
Can we please all address each other courteously and respectfully in this thread?
I have no quibble with the people that I'm arguing with. They are rightly worried that Asif is a serial offender with both a cricket ban and a criminal conviction for the same offence.

And I half agree with [MENTION=3474]TalhaSyed[/MENTION].

Asif had a superb ICC Tribunal by eminent judges who understood cricket. It found that he bowled a no ball to order to try to stop endless pressure by his agent, who was going to earn £150,000 from the fix. But it also found that Asif refused to take money to do it. But he still bowled a no ball to order, and was rightly banned for five years.

But his criminal conviction for the same offence is arguably unsound and is being formally independently reviewed currently. There were major structural issues in jointly trying people who had pleaded guilty along with others who hadn't. The jury clearly struggled to understand cricket or the charges or even which Mohammad was which and which Mazhar was which.

And it ended up with one bizarre conviction, in which Asif was convicted of taking money for fixing even though the prosecution had not claimed that he did or provided evidence that he did. That is liking turning up to court for a traffic offence and leaving with a conviction for murdering somebody who isn't even dead. The chaos of the criminal trial led to a man being convicted of something without any evidence having been provided!

But that is the inherent danger of jury trials, especially in a field they do not understand, with defendants from an ethnic minority whose names are similar.

Apologies if anything I said has come across as not being courteous.

It's just that I know some posters around her have to be dealt with in a certain way whilst others are very capable of having a civilised discussion.

I'm guessing in post #177 you'll see why I struggle to buy into this whole "Asif was punished due to the jury being confused" narrative
 
[MENTION=3474]TalhaSyed[/MENTION]
You can see from my replies that I agree with you on most of the substance.

But I accept the ICC's determination that in the 2010 spotfixing incidents Asif was guilty of less than Amir or Butt.

And I consider a fully-served ban to be just that.

You are right to be suspicious and vigilant.
 
Through out this thread time and time again Shaz and NewYorker have said "refer to Junaid's post" & I was genuinely interested to hear what you had to say, since I was thinking it may be something which I hadn't thought of.

It's disappointing to see that all your defence for Asif boils down to is:

> They didn't find any money on Asif so he didn't take any money
> The jury was made of women who got easily confused

For me personally man that's not good enough.

I may be wrong - but that is not good enough to sway me.
It's not just that they didn't find money on Asif.

He had no recent purchases and no recent wire transfers or bank deposits.

And his SMS traffic to Mazhar Majeed included several refusals to do the fix, several comments that he was not for sale and finally him saying something to the effect of "OK I will do one to shut you up but not for money and don't ever ask me again".

It all fits. And that is why I believe it. The alternative is that he is a Super Criminal, covering his tracks like an expert. But he clearly isn't - not taking payment isn't even a defence!
 
[MENTION=3474]TalhaSyed[/MENTION]
You can see from my replies that I agree with you on most of the substance.

But I accept the ICC's determination that in the 2010 spotfixing incidents Asif was guilty of less than Amir or Butt.

And I consider a fully-served ban to be just that.

You are right to be suspicious and vigilant.

Yup.

See this is where I stand with Asif.

I think Asif is a brilliant talent - so much so that I think he was a bigger loss then Amir following the 2010 spot fixing scandal.

However, due to his repeated issues and landing in hot water - the spot fixing scandal was kind of like the last straw for me and I lost all trust in the guy. For what so ever reason - he decided to bowl that no ball - whether it was for money or to please his agent. Either way in my eyes, and in my opinion, that showed how weak a character he is and how easy it is to sway him away from doing what's right for the team & instead doing what he thinks is best for him.

Now - with these comments in the media where he boasts about his superiority complex - this makes me even more vary & makes me think that his addition in the team could cause serious disruption.

HOWEVER - having said that! If at some stage Asif is picked for the Pakistani team, I think from a bowling talent point of view, it will be a big addition and boost to our team. I don't think he has done anything spectacular since his return, however, I think he definitely does have the talent to do something spectacular if he gets his act together.

Not only that - if he is to get selected for the team - I will gladly put aside my personal opinions about him and hope he succeeds and wish him all the best & back him 100%, just like I've always back every other player who has ever worn a Pakistani shirt.
 
It's not just that they didn't find money on Asif.

He had no recent purchases and no recent wire transfers or bank deposits.

And his SMS traffic to Mazhar Majeed included several refusals to do the fix, several comments that he was not for sale and finally him saying something to the effect of "OK I will do one to shut you up but not for money and don't ever ask me again".
It all fits. And that is why I believe it. The alternative is that he is a Super Criminal, covering his tracks like an expert. But he clearly isn't - not taking payment isn't even a defence!

Can you show and link to this at all, not a link where his lawyer claimed it but actual evidence. I know you believe it but where is there any evidence to back it up other than hearsay.
 
It's not just that they didn't find money on Asif.

He had no recent purchases and no recent wire transfers or bank deposits.

And his SMS traffic to Mazhar Majeed included several refusals to do the fix, several comments that he was not for sale and finally him saying something to the effect of "OK I will do one to shut you up but not for money and don't ever ask me again".

It all fits. And that is why I believe it. The alternative is that he is a Super Criminal, covering his tracks like an expert. But he clearly isn't - not taking payment isn't even a defence!

I think an alternative is that he blew the cash on something else before the authorities could get their hands on it. There's no real way to track cash payments being made & we do know that Amir and Butt were paid in cold hard cash.

However, everyone will surely have their own opinions regarding the issue, and whether it's coz of Asif's track record or due to the jury's conclusion - I struggle to believe that he didn't bowl that no ball for money. If, however, you believe differently - that's cool & that's your opinion and I respect that :)
 
Yup.

See this is where I stand with Asif.

I think Asif is a brilliant talent - so much so that I think he was a bigger loss then Amir following the 2010 spot fixing scandal.

However, due to his repeated issues and landing in hot water - the spot fixing scandal was kind of like the last straw for me and I lost all trust in the guy. For what so ever reason - he decided to bowl that no ball - whether it was for money or to please his agent. Either way in my eyes, and in my opinion, that showed how weak a character he is and how easy it is to sway him away from doing what's right for the team & instead doing what he thinks is best for him.

Now - with these comments in the media where he boasts about his superiority complex - this makes me even more vary & makes me think that his addition in the team could cause serious disruption.

HOWEVER - having said that! If at some stage Asif is picked for the Pakistani team, I think from a bowling talent point of view, it will be a big addition and boost to our team. I don't think he has done anything spectacular since his return, however, I think he definitely does have the talent to do something spectacular if he gets his act together.

Not only that - if he is to get selected for the team - I will gladly put aside my personal opinions about him and hope he succeeds and wish him all the best & back him 100%, just like I've always back every other player who has ever worn a Pakistani shirt.
I agree with virtually every word!

But I think that the fact that he is on an ICC suspended sentence until September 2017 gives Pakistan a brilliant insurance policy. He will be finished by the end of the 2019 World Test Championship anyway.

So just pick him now while the ICC carries the risk!
 
Can you show and link to this at all, not a link where his lawyer claimed it but actual evidence. I know you believe it but where is there any evidence to back it up other than hearsay.
I wish I could.

Until or unless the ICC allows republication of the February 2011 determination I cannot.

And worse, the previously published version contained redacted sections, so even at the time I saw reference to the exonerating SMS traffic followed by the finding that he took no money or other rewards.

But I have not ever seen the words listed above. They are my attempt to illustrate what the redacted traffic must have said.

I'm not going to sugarcoat or fabricate this.
 
I agree with virtually every word!

But I think that the fact that he is on an ICC suspended sentence until September 2017 gives Pakistan a brilliant insurance policy. He will be finished by the end of the 2019 World Test Championship anyway.

So just pick him now while the ICC carries the risk!

Yup that is true.

It may be worth the gamble.

However, I know this may sound melodramatic, I am just vary of giving Asif yet another chance to embarace Pakistan once again.

Anyway - time will tell what happens.

I'm signing off - nice chat bud & catch you around :)
 
I wish I could.

Until or unless the ICC allows republication of the February 2011 determination I cannot.

And worse, the previously published version contained redacted sections, so even at the time I saw reference to the exonerating SMS traffic followed by the finding that he took no money or other rewards.

But I have not ever seen the words listed above. They are my attempt to illustrate what the redacted traffic must have said.

I'm not going to sugarcoat or fabricate this.

Regardless of the fact there is no evidence of this it does not in any way exonerate or lessen his level of guilty.

If a person commits a crime for his benefit or the benefit of someone else makes no difference, Asif committed the crime so that Mazhar would benefit financially so what ever the SMS's provide Asif is guilty of committing the crime for payment, whether Mazhar or Asif got the money makes no difference.

Just because there is no record of him receiving any money makes no difference as I'm sure you know that.
 
Regardless of the fact there is no evidence of this it does not in any way exonerate or lessen his level of guilty.

If a person commits a crime for his benefit or the benefit of someone else makes no difference, Asif committed the crime so that Mazhar would benefit financially so what ever the SMS's provide Asif is guilty of committing the crime for payment, whether Mazhar or Asif got the money makes no difference.

Just because there is no record of him receiving any money makes no difference as I'm sure you know that.
Look, [MENTION=732]Gilly[/MENTION], you and I argue but deep down I often find your criticisms of me a wakeup call when I'm going over the top. New Zealand last year being a good example!

It's a drawback of my polemical style that I do go a bit over the top.

I find the Asif case really challenging, to be honest.

I think your comments about him doing the crime and being rightfully convicted to be something that I 100% support in terms of the ICC.

But I am very, very strongly convinced that his criminal conviction will be overturned, largely due to the Fake Sheikh's malpractice.

Back to Asif's case. I spend a lot of the year on the road in hotels. When the Police raided the rooms, they found that Salman Butt's room was a kind of Donald Trump Tacky Emporium of Bling, with a safe full of marked bank notes and tacky designer watches. But Asif had the room of a 55 year old grandpa. No evidence of any type of purchases or anything else. And the only link he had in London was Mazhar Majeed, and his house was raided too, with no sign of any separate money from Asif.

Lastly, I am going to really kill my own Asif argument here.

I think that you are all wrong to focus too much on the criminal and cricketing convictions and to ignore the other evidence that was captured on the same tape.

The tape contains a confession by Mazhar Majeed that he had been matchfixing Pakistan matches for over a year, specifically including the Sydney Test, and not using Amir, Asif or Butt to do so. It also contains a clear comment that there was either one or two other matchfixing cliques in the 2010 Pakistan dressing room.

This fits completely with what happened on the pitch. Mazhar Majeed specifically confessed to fixing the 2009-10 Sydney Test , but if you look at the first two Tests in Sri Lanka five months earlier the collapses which lost them are scarcely credible.

So we have a confession to prior fixing and three matches which are at best suspicious.

Asif was banned from the Sri Lanka games and clearly was not responsible for the Sydney defeat, not least because the self-confessed fixer explicitly says so. In fact, he took 6-41 in that match.

This is the problem. We can't accept the guilt of Amir, Asif and Butt from the NOTW video evidence but then disregard the rest of the video, which contains a confession by the fixer to actually fixing matches but not using those players.

Either the video is believable or it isn't.

I believe what I have always believed. Mazhar Majeed was telling the truth in the video - he was a matchfixer, but Amir, Asif and Butt were not the Pakistan players who had previously fixed for him. That's what the hidden video evidence recorded.

So yes, Amir, Asif and Butt did the crime and were correctly banned. But their crime was just a newspaper sting. The real Pakistan fixers have got away with it. And when you read the book "Bookie, Gambler, Fixer, Spy" and look at the relevant scorecards for the suspicious matches, I find that it just makes me want to vomit when it becomes obvious who the fixers were.
 
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Look, [MENTION=732]Gilly[/MENTION], you and I argue but deep down I often find your criticisms of me a wakeup call when I'm going over the top. New Zealand last year being a good example!

It's a drawback of my polemical style that I do go a bit over the top.

I find the Asif case really challenging, to be honest.

I think your comments about him doing the crime and being rightfully convicted to be something that I 100% support in terms of the ICC.

But I am very, very strongly convinced that his criminal conviction will be overturned, largely due to the Fake Sheikh's malpractice.

Back to Asif's case. I spend a lot of the year on the road in hotels. When the Police raided the rooms, they found that Salman Butt's room was a kind of Donald Trump Tacky Emporium of Bling, with a safe full of marked bank notes and tacky designer watches. But Asif had the room of a 55 year old grandpa. No evidence of any type of purchases or anything else. And the only link he had in London was Mazhar Majeed, and his house was raided too, with no sign of any separate money from Asif.

Lastly, I am going to really kill my own Asif argument here.

I think that you are all wrong to focus too much on the criminal and cricketing convictions and to ignore the other evidence that was captured on the same tape.

The tape contains a confession by Mazhar Majeed that he had been matchfixing Pakistan matches for over a year, specifically including the Sydney Test, and not using Amir, Asif or Butt to do so. It also contains a clear comment that there was either one or two other matchfixing cliques in the 2010 Pakistan dressing room.

This fits completely with what happened on the pitch. Mazhar Majeed specifically confessed to fixing the 2009-10 Sydney Test , but if you look at the first two Tests in Sri Lanka five months earlier the collapses which lost them are scarcely credible.

So we have a confession to prior fixing and three matches which are at best suspicious.

Asif was banned from the Sri Lanka games and clearly was not responsible for the Sydney defeat, not least because the self-confessed fixer explicitly says so. In fact, he took 6-41 in that match.

This is the problem. We can't accept the guilt of Amir, Asif and Butt from the NOTW video evidence but then disregard the rest of the video, which contains a confession by the fixer to actually fixing matches but not using those players.

Either the video is believable or it isn't.

I believe what I have always believed. Mazhar Majeed was telling the truth in the video - he was a matchfixer, but Amir, Asif and Butt were not the Pakistan players who had previously fixed for him. That's what the hidden video evidence recorded.

So yes, Amir, Asif and Butt did the crime and were correctly banned. But their crime was just a newspaper sting. The real Pakistan fixers have got away with it. And when you read the book "Bookie, Gambler, Fixer, Spy" and look at the relevant scorecards for the suspicious matches, I find that it just makes me want to vomit when it becomes obvious who the fixers were.

The problem you have is there is hard evidence to go with Mazhars video of Asif agreeing to bowl no balls, there is no evidence other than hearsay and/or circumstantial evidence of any other person fixing. Wahab cannot be convicted on Mazhars word only and without any other hard evidence the prosecution can do nothing. I would have thought you understood this.
 
Regardless of the fact there is no evidence of this it does not in any way exonerate or lessen his level of guilty.

If a person commits a crime for his benefit or the benefit of someone else makes no difference, Asif committed the crime so that Mazhar would benefit financially so what ever the SMS's provide Asif is guilty of committing the crime for payment, whether Mazhar or Asif got the money makes no difference.

Just because there is no record of him receiving any money makes no difference as I'm sure you know that.

Tulisa was acquitted of drug dealing and the case was thrown out. Fake Sheikh is being prosecuted for entrapment.

This is entrapment. Asif and others are not criminals. Fake Sheikh is.

Lets get the facts straight here.
 
Tulisa was acquitted of drug dealing and the case was thrown out. Fake Sheikh is being prosecuted for entrapment.

This is entrapment. Asif and others are not criminals. Fake Sheikh is.

Lets get the facts straight here.

The facts could not be clearer, Asif, Amir and Butt was charged, convicted and sentenced.
 
I wish I could.

Until or unless the ICC allows republication of the February 2011 determination I cannot.

How convenient.

I like how you throw around your idea that Asif was less guilty than Butt and Amir as if it was an accepted fact. And as if it was accepted that he received no money at all or was not promised any money. The fact is he was convicted of conspiracy to accept corrupt payments by a court of law.

I asked you for evidence in another thread, but you provided no verifiable evidence. Just your top secret sources that require you to contact the ICC. Give me a freakin break dude.

Now, I will tell you what I consider evidence - Butt got a 10 year ban, Asif got a 7 year ban and Amir got a 5 year ban. How that works out in your head to Asif being less guilty than Amir, or accepted as having done less, I have no idea.

And nowhere at the time did I read in any press coverage that Asif was considered less guilty that the other two or that he had less involvement in any way. In fact, he was the first one called after the fix was made if I recall correctly by Majeed.

Regardless, it is a silly argument. He's guilty and accepts his guilt. What you're trying to prove I have no idea.

Equating him to Warne is also completely daft.
 
Yup that is true.

It may be worth the gamble.

However, I know this may sound melodramatic, I am just vary of giving Asif yet another chance to embarace Pakistan once again.

Anyway - time will tell what happens.

I'm signing off - nice chat bud & catch you around :)
It's fine - we almost agree and both have good intentions!

You know what I've been afraid of?

I knew a week ago when Asif took that spell of 3-3 to get WAPDA to the Final that he was back to his old self as a player.

And when he bowled that wonder-spell on Day 1 of the QEA Final it just made me even more certain. There are various people in the other thread trying to deny it, but I knew it. (And yes, I know on a four day old pitch he will be less effective in the second innings).

But currently I check on Cricinfo every morning before I go to work to make sure that he hasn't failed a drugs test.

I don't think I trust him any more than the rest of you. The difference is that I see his ban as complete, and as such if he's bowling this well I think he should be in the team.
 
The problem you have is there is hard evidence to go with Mazhars video of Asif agreeing to bowl no balls, there is no evidence other than hearsay and/or circumstantial evidence of any other person fixing. Wahab cannot be convicted on Mazhars word only and without any other hard evidence the prosecution can do nothing. I would have thought you understood this.
Actually, it's not quite what you think.

There is no video of Asif agreeing to bowl the no-ball. There is only Mazhar Majeed telling The Fake Sheikh when they will be bowled and then them duly being bowled at that moment.

I do accept the video of Mazhar Majeed. But that also requires me to accept that he fixed the Sydney Test.

I don't want to put Wahab Riaz on trial. Just bear in mind that the NOTW published a photograph of him wearing Mazhar Majeed's beige jacket with a wad of 10,000 pounds in the pocket. It's elsewhere on the PakPassion website - I just googled "Wahab Riaz jacket money" and got sent straight to PakPassion.

This is not a black and white story, as much as people would like it to be. It goes through multiple tones of grey, from very, very light grey to extremely dark grey. As well as black and white!
 
Tulisa was acquitted of drug dealing and the case was thrown out. Fake Sheikh is being prosecuted for entrapment.

This is entrapment. Asif and others are not criminals. Fake Sheikh is.

Lets get the facts straight here.
Sorry, my friend, but I'm with [MENTION=732]Gilly[/MENTION] here.

The Fake Sheikh is not in jail for entrapment. In English law entrapment is fine and dandy.

He is in jail for falsifying the videos that he used in other News of the World stings, in order to pervert the course of justice.

Amir, Asif and Butt were entrapped, but that's legal in England and they should not have done what they did - not even Asif.

There are issues about the soundness of the criminal conviction, but not the cricketing one.

My issue is simply that now that their bans are over they should be free to play.

And more than that, Asif's offence and guilt was recorded by the ICC Tribunal as being less severe than Amir's, so I think it's unfair for Amir to be selected but not Asif given that their QEA stats in 2015-16 and 2016-17 respectively are almost identical.
 
My issue is simply that now that their bans are over they should be free to play.

And more than that, Asif's offence and guilt was recorded by the ICC Tribunal as being less severe than Amir's, so I think it's unfair for Amir to be selected but not Asif given that their QEA stats in 2015-16 and 2016-17 respectively are almost identical.

They are free to play as far as the ICC are concerned, if for any reason the PCB decide that they don't want to select Asif due to trust issues or any other reason then that is up to them. Similarly when CA banned Warne for one year he was still free to play as far as the ICC were concerned, he was not banned by the ICC it was CA that stopped him from playing.

According to the ICC they regarded Asif guilty just the same as Amir and Butt, you are guilty or not guilty there is nothing inbetween, but they regarded Asif worthy of a higher punishment than Asif by sentencing him to 5 years plus a 2 year probation period. Amir is completely free of his ban by the ICC but Asif is still under sentence even at this moment as he is still serving his probation.
 
The tape contains a confession by Mazhar Majeed that he had been matchfixing Pakistan matches for over a year, specifically including the Sydney Test, and not using Amir, Asif or Butt to do so. It also contains a clear comment that there was either one or two other matchfixing cliques in the 2010 Pakistan dressing room.
So yes, Amir, Asif and Butt did the crime and were correctly banned. But their crime was just a newspaper sting. The real Pakistan fixers have got away with it. And when you read the book "Bookie, Gambler, Fixer, Spy" and look at the relevant scorecards for the suspicious matches, I find that it just makes me want to vomit when it becomes obvious who the fixers were.

This is what worries me the most. I think Asif, Amir and Butt's crimes are petty compared to the match fixing mafia that goes to the upper echelons of the board.They're too well connected and experienced to be caught. One of those players is threatening the board in order to make a comeback to the team and nobody is pointing a finger at him because he got away with it despite making us lose a Test match. The real fixers were never caught for their crimes while Amir, Asif and Butt were given severe punishments.
 
Asif was actually a victim of Stockholm syndrome.

All around him there were mean people, who were forcing him to d0 stuff he really didn't want to do. Amir, Butt, Mazhar all of them were involved in a big conspiracy and finally Asif became sympathetic and decided to do it.



So going by this thread, Asif has turned from jailed convict into someone of a cult hero.

Someone who was repeatedly wronged, was pressurizes to bowl no-balls, and everyone around him was fixing while he was adamant that he wouldn't accept any money.

It's frighteningly hilarious how people can twist a convict into a hero, just by how they feel.
 
[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] and [MENTION=3474]TalhaSyed[/MENTION]
You are both brilliant posters in your different ways. You are smart guys and you both have a good sense of humour too.

I hate to tell you, but you actually agree on this issue. Even I agree - and I've spent hours arguing with [MENTION=3474]TalhaSyed[/MENTION] in this thread.

We all know that Mohammad Asif was a brilliant fast-medium bowler. I think the three of us even agree that it looks like he is back to his old self as a bowler.

And I think we all share another feature too - we all have a certain fear that he might still be his old self in other ways too.

We just agree to differ on whether Pakistan should pick him - and even then not by much, as [MENTION=3474]TalhaSyed[/MENTION] agrees that the best time is when he is on ICC probation and they carry the risk.

So I don't think we need to attack each other. Trolling is fun, but let's keep it friendly! :)

It's only a game. That's why the seriousness about meetings and acceptance and national humiliation means nothing to me - it's just grown men playing a game with a ball.
 
Why is there such a big discussion on this anyway,he has served his time irrespective of whether he believed he was guilty or not and now he has to be fast tracked in the team on the basis he already has intl experience and he has done pretty well in domestics.

Pakistan winning down under is what will be remembered 10 years later not whether Asif was allowed to play or not based on certain moral issues.
 
Please refer to post #177

I apologise for telling you to run along. That was uncalled for :)


Thank you, I appreciate it. There was a lot that was uncalled for.

I never claimed Asif had taken money but less than the other defendants.

My understanding was that he had taken no money.

So it was doubly surreal to read you heckling me on this point.

Why do you think that it is OK to just make up things about others?
 
Asif was actually a victim of Stockholm syndrome.

All around him there were mean people, who were forcing him to d0 stuff he really didn't want to do. Amir, Butt, Mazhar all of them were involved in a big conspiracy and finally Asif became sympathetic and decided to do it.



So going by this thread, Asif has turned from jailed convict into someone of a cult hero.

Someone who was repeatedly wronged, was pressurizes to bowl no-balls, and everyone around him was fixing while he was adamant that he wouldn't accept any money.

It's frighteningly hilarious how people can twist a convict into a hero, just by how they feel.

I think you have turned the debate into a caricature.

Where do you read the claim that he is a hero?

The claim is that his offence was lesser than that of the other defendants.

Because yes, the evidence that we have suggests he never accepted money.
Hence one could say he remained adamant, yes.
 
Why is there such a big discussion on this anyway,he has served his time irrespective of whether he believed he was guilty or not and now he has to be fast tracked in the team on the basis he already has intl experience and he has done pretty well in domestics.

Pakistan winning down under is what will be remembered 10 years later not whether Asif was allowed to play or not based on certain moral issues.

No because some people are sitting on 10 feet high horses and they shower with milk every day. They also seem to think that their word or opinion is somehow more important than the ICC ruling.


Asif is the best bowler in Pakistan whether in the team or out of it, but it is the mentality being displayed on this thread is the reason why he isn't with the side in Australia.
 
No because some people are sitting on 10 feet high horses and they shower with milk every day. They also seem to think that their word or opinion is somehow more important than the ICC ruling.


Asif is the best bowler in Pakistan whether in the team or out of it, but it is the mentality being displayed on this thread is the reason why he isn't with the side in Australia.

Bas karo yaar.

The mentality of most on this thread wants him to actually tour Australia.

The only reason he is not touring is because PCB doesn't wear its heart on its sleeve like most of Pakpassion.

If it were Pakpassion and a common vote to decide, give or take a few people (including me), most of the people are vociferously asking for his return.
 
Bas karo yaar.

The mentality of most on this thread wants him to actually tour Australia.

The only reason he is not touring is because PCB doesn't wear its heart on its sleeve like most of Pakpassion.

If it were Pakpassion and a common vote to decide, give or take a few people (including me), most of the people are vociferously asking for his return.

Lol app tou rehne hi dein. In this very thread you named a whole bunch of legends and asked if Asif measures upto them, and obviously he doesn't therefore he shouldn't be in the side.


Asif's competition isn't the legends of yesteryears, it is the military medium, pie-chuckers that are currently bowling for us. Asif is head and shoulders above them. That is obvious to anyone who doesn't have his head stuck under the sand of 'perceived morality'.
 
Lol app tou rehne hi dein. In this very thread you named a whole bunch of legends and asked if Asif measures upto them, and obviously he doesn't therefore he shouldn't be in the side.


Asif's competition isn't the legends of yesteryears, it is the military medium, pie-chuckers that are currently bowling for us. Asif is head and shoulders above them. That is obvious to anyone who doesn't have his head stuck under the sand of 'perceived morality'.

not at all- morality and past have nothing to do with it

If you look at performance alone, Sohail Khan, Imran Khan, Rahat Ali have been doing what Asif is currently doing on the domestic circuit, for years

what makes Asif's 6 months of good performance domestically, better than Sohail / Rahat / Imran's years of domestic dominance?
 
Thank you, I appreciate it. There was a lot that was uncalled for.

I never claimed Asif had taken money but less than the other defendants.

My understanding was that he had taken no money.

So it was doubly surreal to read you heckling me on this point.

Why do you think that it is OK to just make up things about others?

Please point out where I have said that you think he took money? :)
 
well well well.

i suppose today, barely being fit enough to bowl and shockingly the best bowler in the world against laft hander sin particular being able to do jack "on the best pitch against the best team" (as if they didnt play in the rest of the tournament) suddenly doesnt count?

abject failure, and utterly unproven.

images.jpeg


Because it's complete nonsense.

It fails to recognise that the Final is between the best teams with the best batsmen on a better five day pitch.

And it seeks to use twisted statistics to mislead us into ignoring what we saw with our own eyes.

nonsense? twisted statistics? you mean like making a comparison with an average from six years ago as if thats relevant anywhere? or claiming that one innings 'statistics' is enough to have proven a talent? the hypocrisy and blatant disingenuous untruth in these posts in shameless.
 
Please point out where I have said that you think he took money? :)

Post # 161

what is surreal is that your go to argument is "Amir bowled two no balls & earned more money whilst Asif bowled one no ball & earned less money - therefore Asif isn't as big a spot fixer as Amir is".

not my argument at all.
 
well well well.

i suppose today, barely being fit enough to bowl and shockingly the best bowler in the world against laft hander sin particular being able to do jack "on the best pitch against the best team" (as if they didnt play in the rest of the tournament) suddenly doesnt count?

abject failure, and utterly unproven.

View attachment 70960




nonsense? twisted statistics? you mean like making a comparison with an average from six years ago as if thats relevant anywhere? or claiming that one innings 'statistics' is enough to have proven a talent? the hypocrisy and blatant disingenuous untruth in these posts in shameless.

Egg on your face when you realize is upset stomach was a ploy to keep ppl from finding out that he was interviewing for an Australian visa. #junaidsfacts
 
Egg on your face when you realize is upset stomach was a ploy to keep ppl from finding out that he was interviewing for an Australian visa. #junaidsfacts

Lmao for a second I thought you are posting it for real

Thankfully read the hashtag
 
well well well.

i suppose today, barely being fit enough to bowl and shockingly the best bowler in the world against laft hander sin particular being able to do jack "on the best pitch against the best team" (as if they didnt play in the rest of the tournament) suddenly doesnt count?

abject failure, and utterly unproven.

View attachment 70960




nonsense? twisted statistics? you mean like making a comparison with an average from six years ago as if thats relevant anywhere? or claiming that one innings 'statistics' is enough to have proven a talent? the hypocrisy and blatant disingenuous untruth in these posts in shameless.
There's so many holes in Junaids argument that I'm conflicted what to think. It's just mind boggling the theories he peddles in all seriousness.Does he wilfully ignore them and bury his head in the sand or is he that fair into the depths of delusion!
 
No because some people are sitting on 10 feet high horses and they shower with milk every day. They also seem to think that their word or opinion is somehow more important than the ICC ruling.


Asif is the best bowler in Pakistan whether in the team or out of it, but it is the mentality being displayed on this thread is the reason why he isn't with the side in Australia.

The thing is there is nothing to suggest he will have a major impact there

He had a good season performance wise but missed a bunch of matches due to poor fitness

Was having fitness issues today as well

And in the first innings his team had HBL on the ropes at 21/6 and somehow he let it slip big time and they put up 200+ more runs. Really how is that defensible?!

And what's really is stuff of legends is that his good performances (not great) which have several holes if you look at them closely have been taken in the Pakistani domestic cricket season where cheetahs like Hammad Azam average in the teens. And even more so legendary is the fact that this season in particular the top 25 or so cricketers in the country were not even playing in the domestic season thus diluting the quality of cricket massively 16-17 players from the national team were away and then the next top 10-15 players were away on BPL for large chunks of the season. So Asif's flawed record was accumulated in these conditions

From a cricketing side the case for Asif is ok at best. And some here would make you believe as if he has run through every line up and averages 10 along with being far and away the highest wicket taker
 
The thing is there is nothing to suggest he will have a major impact there

He had a good season performance wise but missed a bunch of matches due to poor fitness

Was having fitness issues today as well

And in the first innings his team had HBL on the ropes at 21/6 and somehow he let it slip big time and they put up 200+ more runs. Really how is that defensible?!

And what's really is stuff of legends is that his good performances (not great) which have several holes if you look at them closely have been taken in the Pakistani domestic cricket season where cheetahs like Hammad Azam average in the teens. And even more so legendary is the fact that this season in particular the top 25 or so cricketers in the country were not even playing in the domestic season thus diluting the quality of cricket massively 16-17 players from the national team were away and then the next top 10-15 players were away on BPL for large chunks of the season. So Asif's flawed record was accumulated in these conditions

From a cricketing side the case for Asif is ok at best. And some here would make you believe as if he has run through every line up and averages 10 along with being far and away the highest wicket taker

hence Pakistan made the right decision not picking him for Aussie tour. Next thing we know that we will ask Wasim and Waqar to come back and help the team .
 
The guy has food poisoning or upset stomach and people are saying :

1. Asif is exposed.

2. He has only taken wickets with new ball.

3. He has only taken wickets on first day of matches.

4. He is 36 his time is over.

5. He is bowling 120 kph.

6. His stats are inferior than 8 world beaters future ATG's

7. Lol some people were saying He should have been in Australia.




SubhaanAllah.


Maa Sadaay Maa Waari


Maasoom Qoum.
 
There's so many holes in Junaids argument that I'm conflicted what to think. It's just mind boggling the theories he peddles in all seriousness.Does he wilfully ignore them and bury his head in the sand or is he that fair into the depths of delusion!

i have no idea. and in fairness everyone has the right to express their opinion. the only reason ive been moved to post on it at all is because its ridiculously ubiquitous - its just unabashed and desperately illogical well expressed rubbish that is unrelentingly rammed in everyones face in all manner of threads, without mercy. there are of course the following, inevitable corresponding meek, quiet and buried u-turns, but that doesnt balance it out. its sad to see weaker minds bending in this torrent of repeated and repeated and repeated illogical speculative nonsense.
 
Post # 161

what is surreal is that your go to argument is "Amir bowled two no balls & earned more money whilst Asif bowled one no ball & earned less money - therefore Asif isn't as big a spot fixer as Amir is".

not my argument at all.

Ah yes sorry - because you kept saying "refer to Junaid's post" it's difficult to find out what YOUR argument actually is.

Junaid's argument is that Amir & Butt sold their country for money whilst Asif sold his country to keep his agent happy (post #174). I'm guessing that's your go to argument too?
 
[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] and [MENTION=3474]TalhaSyed[/MENTION]
You are both brilliant posters in your different ways. You are smart guys and you both have a good sense of humour too.

I hate to tell you, but you actually agree on this issue. Even I agree - and I've spent hours arguing with [MENTION=3474]TalhaSyed[/MENTION] in this thread.

We all know that Mohammad Asif was a brilliant fast-medium bowler. I think the three of us even agree that it looks like he is back to his old self as a bowler.

And I think we all share another feature too - we all have a certain fear that he might still be his old self in other ways too.

We just agree to differ on whether Pakistan should pick him - and even then not by much, as [MENTION=3474]TalhaSyed[/MENTION] agrees that the best time is when he is on ICC probation and they carry the risk.

So I don't think we need to attack each other. Trolling is fun, but let's keep it friendly! :)

It's only a game. That's why the seriousness about meetings and acceptance and national humiliation means nothing to me - it's just grown men playing a game with a ball.

Absolutely agree that it is just a game and we should keep things limited to friendly banter :)

Back to the discussion at hand. Yes I do agree with majority of what you said there. IF PCB are planning on being Asif back (and that is a big IF) - now is the time to do it.

One point which we should (and I think we we have) agreed to disagree on - is Asif's role in the spot fixing saga. I think Asif (like the other two) was also in it for the money & is just as guilty as the other two - however, you think otherwise.

As for Asif being bang to his old self - honestly man - that's one thing in your post which I will have to disagree with. Personally I don't see anything to suggest that he is back to being as good as he was in 2010, however, what I will say is that I think he does have the potential to get there if he gets his act together.
 
Asif is down with food poisoning and haters are out in full swing. Take it that even a half fit Asif is better than trundlers like rahat, sohail and imran. Half of Asif's overs in this domestic season were maiden. Wapda made it to the final primarily because of him. Not playing Asif is our loss not his.
 
Asif is down with food poisoning and haters are out in full swing. Take it that even a half fit Asif is better than trundlers like rahat, sohail and imran. Half of Asif's overs in this domestic season were maiden. Wapda made it to the final primarily because of him. Not playing Asif is our loss not his.
Evident through his wickets on flat pitches...
 
Absolutely agree that it is just a game and we should keep things limited to friendly banter :)

Back to the discussion at hand. Yes I do agree with majority of what you said there. IF PCB are planning on being Asif back (and that is a big IF) - now is the time to do it.

One point which we should (and I think we we have) agreed to disagree on - is Asif's role in the spot fixing saga. I think Asif (like the other two) was also in it for the money & is just as guilty as the other two - however, you think otherwise.

As for Asif being bang to his old self - honestly man - that's one thing in your post which I will have to disagree with. Personally I don't see anything to suggest that he is back to being as good as he was in 2010, however, what I will say is that I think he does have the potential to get there if he gets his act together.
Again, I agree with almost everything you've written.

The thing is, do you remember a few days ago I gave [MENTION=732]Gilly[/MENTION] an attack of apoplexy by comparing his style with Josh Hazlewood?

I think that Asif - the old Asif - was always a brilliant tall medium-fast line-and-length bowler who nibbled the ball a tiny bit each way off the seam and in the air.

But that means that his style is most effective in Australia, England, New Zealand, South Africa and Sri Lanka.

That's why his lifetime QEA figures are worse than his 2016-17 QEA figures. And it's why I wouldn't even select him in the UAE.

Different bowlers have different strengths and weaknesses and styles. Some are great in a variety of conditions while some are brilliant in some conditions and not in others.

The sniping at Asif for his second innings performance in the QEA Final has left me baffled. I wrote a couple of days ago that in Pakistan I wouldn't expect much of him once the pitch flattens out and the grass dies. At least outside Asia he still gets bounce at that point in the game, but in Asia he gets nothing. Just like Josh Hazlewood would on this pitch.
 
It's not just that they didn't find money on Asif.

He had no recent purchases and no recent wire transfers or bank deposits.

And his SMS traffic to Mazhar Majeed included several refusals to do the fix, several comments that he was not for sale and finally him saying something to the effect of "OK I will do one to shut you up but not for money and don't ever ask me again".

It all fits. And that is why I believe it. The alternative is that he is a Super Criminal, covering his tracks like an expert. But he clearly isn't - not taking payment isn't even a defence!

But I think it came out in the trial that there was another person who acted as an intermediary on Asifs behalf and Asif was regularly in touch during the couple of days in question. It was one of these 30 second phone calls that got Asif. The intermediary was a suspicious character and under the radar.

Anyway there's a lot wrong with the trial. At first the judge had asked for a unanimous verdict from jury. When they couldn't deliver this for a day he finally accepted a majority verdict. Meaning not everybody was 100% convinced of the evidence nor of the prosecutors case. In fact given that mazhar majeed has turned out to be done for entrapment it is entirely credible that there were flaws in the case but the lawyers of the trio were just unable to expose the newspaper sting properly.
 
Ah yes sorry - because you kept saying "refer to Junaid's post" it's difficult to find out what YOUR argument actually is.

Junaid's argument is that Amir & Butt sold their country for money whilst Asif sold his country to keep his agent happy (post #174). I'm guessing that's your go to argument too?

My first post to this thread# 134 contains the line Asif 'refused to take any money.'

I couldn't have been clearer or more upfront with what I was arguing.

I politely submit that it was easier for you to argue with a strawman of your own design.

Why can't you just calm down and stop the heckling?

To your question, in so far as he did not take money, Asif couldn't be said to have sold anything.
 
Things have changed a lot in last 5-6 years, the best example is Amir. Asif is a good bowler but it won't be easy for him at an International level. He should rather let his bowling and performance speak rather than self-proclaiming.
 
But I think it came out in the trial that there was another person who acted as an intermediary on Asifs behalf and Asif was regularly in touch during the couple of days in question. It was one of these 30 second phone calls that got Asif. The intermediary was a suspicious character and under the radar.

Anyway there's a lot wrong with the trial. At first the judge had asked for a unanimous verdict from jury. When they couldn't deliver this for a day he finally accepted a majority verdict. Meaning not everybody was 100% convinced of the evidence nor of the prosecutors case. In fact given that mazhar majeed has turned out to be done for entrapment it is entirely credible that there were flaws in the case but the lawyers of the trio were just unable to expose the newspaper sting properly.

The trial really embarrasses me as a Briton, just as the fixing embarrasses so many Pakistanis.

I've done jury duty and I've given evidence in court a lot of times as an expert (!) witness.

And from this I know that most of the time the jury members are lost, don't really understand what is going on and often lose track of who is who.

In this trial:

Mohammad Asif had pleaded Not Guilty.
Mohammad Amir had pleaded Guilty but the prosecutors weren't allowed to say so, which confused a jury which saw only one Mohammad sitting in front of it - the other one.
Mazhar Majeed had pleaded Guilty, but the prosecutors weren't allowed to say so.
Mazhar Mahmood was the main witness for the prosecution (and is now in jail!)
Salman Butt had pleaded Not Guilty.

We are all Pakistan cricket fans, and what I've written is already confusing to us. Imagine what it was like to a jury in which only 1 or at most 2 of the 12 understood cricket.

The prosecution lead barrister then put forward the evidence for the fix, with repeated mention to the Two Mohammad A's.

But the jury hadn't been told that the reason why there was only one Mohammad A sitting in the dock was because another Mohammad A had pleaded Guilty! So it is easy to impute that when they were shown Mohammad Amir's two giant no-balls and the marked newspaper cash from his hotel safe that they associated this with Mohammad Asif - the only Mohammad A sitting in the dock before them.

Two men, both tall, both Pakistani, both relatively young, both with identical first names and almost identical surnames right down to the first letter and the length of the name!

Remember this: the Prosecution at the Criminal Trial provided NO EVIDENCE that Asif was paid or otherwise rewarded for the no-ball. Yet still the jury convicted him of it! (And the ICC Trial had had to acquit him of that charge because there was no evidence).

I know that Asif was Guilty of bowling a no-ball to order, and I don't dispute that for a second.

But even aside from the fact that the whole case was built upon the Fake Sheikh's evidence, the extraordinary thing is that on one charge Asif was found guilty of something that the prosecution hadn't even provided evidence of him doing!

So it seems obvious to me that the factors I listed above caused this.
 
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We are all Pakistan cricket fans, and what I've written is already confusing to us. Imagine what it was like to a jury in which only 1 or at most 2 of the 12 understood cricket.

Now I'm not going to say you made this up to suit your theories but could you direct me to a link where this information was taken.
 
The guy has food poisoning or upset stomach and people are saying :

1. Asif is exposed.

2. He has only taken wickets with new ball.

3. He has only taken wickets on first day of matches.

4. He is 36 his time is over.

5. He is bowling 120 kph.

6. His stats are inferior than 8 world beaters future ATG's

7. Lol some people were saying He should have been in Australia.




SubhaanAllah.


Maa Sadaay Maa Waari


Maasoom Qoum.

How do you know about food poisoning?? - Was that in news or inside story??

Kismat itni bhiee Kharab na ho banday key 🤦🏻*♂️
 
The trial really embarrasses me as a Briton, just as the fixing embarrasses so many Pakistanis.

I've done jury duty and I've given evidence in court a lot of times as an expert (!) witness.

And from this I know that most of the time the jury members are lost, don't really understand what is going on and often lose track of who is who.

In this trial:

Mohammad Asif had pleaded Not Guilty.
Mohammad Amir had pleaded Guilty but the prosecutors weren't allowed to say so, which confused a jury which saw only one Mohammad sitting in front of it - the other one.
Mazhar Majeed had pleaded Guilty, but the prosecutors weren't allowed to say so.
Mazhar Mahmood was the main witness for the prosecution (and is now in jail!)
Salman Butt had pleaded Not Guilty.

We are all Pakistan cricket fans, and what I've written is already confusing to us. Imagine what it was like to a jury in which only 1 or at most 2 of the 12 understood cricket.

The prosecution lead barrister then put forward the evidence for the fix, with repeated mention to the Two Mohammad A's.

But the jury hadn't been told that the reason why there was only one Mohammad A sitting in the dock was because another Mohammad A had pleaded Guilty! So it is easy to impute that when they were shown Mohammad Amir's two giant no-balls and the marked newspaper cash from his hotel safe that they associated this with Mohammad Asif - the only Mohammad A sitting in the dock before them.

Two men, both tall, both Pakistani, both relatively young, both with identical first names and almost identical surnames right down to the first letter and the length of the name!

Remember this: the Prosecution at the Criminal Trial provided NO EVIDENCE that Asif was paid or otherwise rewarded for the no-ball. Yet still the jury convicted him of it! (And the ICC Trial had had to acquit him of that charge because there was no evidence).

I know that Asif was Guilty of bowling a no-ball to order, and I don't dispute that for a second.

But even aside from the fact that the whole case was built upon the Fake Sheikh's evidence, the extraordinary thing is that on one charge Asif was found guilty of something that the prosecution hadn't even provided evidence of him doing!

So it seems obvious to me that the factors I listed above caused this.

With all your expert (!) witness experience and you still don't know how Asif was guilty. Are you pulling my leg here.
 
With all your expert (!) witness experience and you still don't know how Asif was guilty. Are you pulling my leg here.

No, I accept his guilt on the other charge.

Asif was obviously Guilty of the charge of "Conspiracy to Cheat".

But he was equally obviously Not Guilty on the second charge of "Conspiracy to Accept Corrupt Payments".

No evidence was put before the court to support the second charge. It was ludicrous.

No video evidence, no marked notes, no bank deposits, no recent purchases, no incriminating SMS or telephone traffic.
 
Now I'm not going to say you made this up to suit your theories but could you direct me to a link where this information was taken.
I'm English!

The game of cricket - like rugby union - is now basically alien to everyone who did not attend a Private Boys' School.

The chances of getting even three jurors who understood cricket are similar to the chances of snow stopping play at the Gabba tomorrow.
 
But he was equally obviously Not Guilty on the second charge of "Conspiracy to Accept Corrupt Payments".

.

So with all your expert witness experience you cannot see how the jury came to the conclusion that Asif conspired with Mazhar to bowl no balls for financial gain. You are honestly telling me that.
 
I'm English!

The game of cricket - like rugby union - is now basically alien to everyone who did not attend a Private Boys' School.

The chances of getting even three jurors who understood cricket are similar to the chances of snow stopping play at the Gabba tomorrow.

So it was something just made up by you and there is nothing at all to it except that's what you think.
 
I'm English!

The game of cricket - like rugby union - is now basically alien to everyone who did not attend a Private Boys' School.

The chances of getting even three jurors who understood cricket are similar to the chances of snow stopping play at the Gabba tomorrow.

wow, you're unbelievable really.
Your posts never seize to amaze me. How do you formulate these theories and the psychobabble?
Your misapprehensions are palpable.
 
Well, neither him nor Irfan are going to be playing this series so it's time to move on.
 
So with all your expert witness experience you cannot see how the jury came to the conclusion that Asif conspired with Mazhar to bowl no balls for financial gain. You are honestly telling me that.
A jury is given clear instructions as to how to arrive at a verdict.

They cannot use conjecture. They can't sat "Amir admits that he was paid so Asif must have been too, why else would he do it?" That's explicitly prohibited.

They have to arrive only at a guilty verdict if it is supported by evidence. So it was incumbent upon them to have seen proof that Asif was paid, or other wise rewarded, or at the very least that he agreed to be.

And that proof doesn't exist. The ICC Tribunal considered the same evidence and confirmed that there is no such proof.
 
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