No question of removing Tipu Sultan’s portrait from Delhi Assembly: Speaker

[CricketCartoons]

Honestly I feel that this new found love for Marathas is simply unfounded insecurity. Indians evolved from primitive warfare thousands of years ago, Hindus brought the world meditation and vegetarian concepts while we British were still living in caves and scarfing boiled mutton with cabbage mulch.

Instead of taking pride in their evolved and genteel teachings, now Indians try to attach themselves to some reimagined idyllic times of warfare with swords and elephants. I feel this is British soft power eroding Indians self identity with big budget tv series like Game of Thrones.

I am fine with marathi people glorifying the maratha kingdom. Problem is when beghairat hindus glorify marathas as hindu warriors. Marathas were not fighting for hindus. The mountain rat shivaji wanted to become a subject of aurangzeb and got insulted only when aurangzeb asked him to stand in the second row. marathas used to attack mughals and hindu kingdoms as well. There is a bengali song which moms used to sing to their kids..that the marathas have looted whatever was left. The glorification of mararthas as hindu warriors is a bollywood creation helped by hindus who will cling to anything to fill their barren cupboard of manly leaders.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Interesting. There is a new found zeal visible in Hindus of Modi's India. Do you think they have what it takes to remove this daagh of beghairaty and stand as an honourable nation ?

We certainly can if we go back to our roots and the philosophy of mooh mein raam raam, baghal mein churi. but some hindus are ashamed to say raam, and in their baghal carry the spittoon of their oppressors.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Not victors but martyrs.

Insecurity and false sense of superiority complex go hand in hand, I see Insecurity helping many Indians work harder and I see superiority complex doing the opposite.

The only positive aspect of Superiority complex is ability to question and take risks but overall it's detrimental in my opinion.

I don't think insecurity is necessarily a bad thing if it helps improving the general population to work harder, baseless brainwashing and rewriting history though are foolish which is what is happening here.

So to sum up your thoughts on this, insecurity is generally a good thing, except when it leads to brainwashing and rewriting history?

 

[JaDed]

So to sum up your thoughts on this, insecurity is generally a good thing, except when it leads to brainwashing and rewriting history?

It can be a good thing. Not everyone is born in a first world country .

 

[Zaz]

Tipus Legacy has lasted over 200 years Its gonna take more than a few bhakhts to erase this magnificent mans name and great deeds

One of the true subcontinental greats

 

[Slog]

So the order has been reversed.

 

[gani999]

The new found love for Marathas obviously has to do with insecurities esp since the recent anti Mughal turn and classifying them as ‘foreigners’ means there aren’t any major modern (post 1500 AD) great ‘Indian’ empires to big up. So they are left with bigging up the Marathas who on a relative scale to Mughals are an insignificant regional players I I was watching some trailer on a move where some hindu kingdom (maybe Maratha only) attacks the Mughals and the trailer says “surgical strike against the Mughals” ). And then there’s some new movie on panipat where the Marathas got their behinds whooped but the trailer made it seem like they were victors in some way.

Well, post AD 1600 the Marathas did control most of India, and it was the the Mughals who were regional players. So I don't see why some Indians should not be proud of them?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url...ved=0CAIQjRxqFwoTCMi9i-Pd9-oCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAX

And then there was also Maharaja Ranjit Singh's Sikh Empire who even the Afghans and the British could not topple as long as he was alive.

There's more to India's history than the Mughals.

 

[Slog]

Well, post AD 1600 the Marathas did control most of India, and it was the the Mughals who were regional players. So I don't see why some Indians should not be proud of them?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url...ved=0CAIQjRxqFwoTCMi9i-Pd9-oCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAX

And then there was also Maharaja Ranjit Singh's Sikh Empire who even the Afghans and the British could not topple as long as he was alive.

There's more to India's history than the Mughals.

Compared to Mughals, Marathas are largely an insignificant player in India history and their peak lasted barely a few years. Mughal decline started after 1700AD

They allied with the British to win battles against Tipu sultan for eg. How is that heroic lol

Sikh empire was great but obv modi bhakts also won’t accept them wholeheartedly since they were clearly. Sikh

 

[Abdullah719]

After furore over dropping Tipu Sultan from textbooks, Karnataka govt puts decision on hold

Bengaluru: The Karnataka government has been forced to put its decision to drop chapters related to controversial 18th century Mysore ruler Tipu Sultan on hold, after a major outcry over why important personalities related to the region’s history were dropped.

The Department of Public Instruction had decided to remove Tipu Sultan and his father Hyder Ali from the Class 7 textbooks as part of its move to reduce the syllabus by 30 per cent for the Covid-hit academic year 2020-21, which has been brought down to 120 working days according to education department officials.

Other important parts of the curriculum for classes 6-10 that have been removed include entire lessons on the teachings of Jesus Christ and Prophet Muhammad, chapters on the history of the Mughals and the Rajputs, and on the drafting committee of the Constitution and salient features of the Constitution.

However, after the furore, a note was put up on the Karnataka Textbook Society’s website, which read: “Content reduction link for 1-10 classes has been temporarily withdrawn.”

KTS director Madegowda told ThePrint: “Education minister Suresh Kumar has asked us to put this decision in abeyance. We will update the new version in a few days.”

Madegowda acknowledged the furore, saying: “Don’t read too much into this. Tipu Sultan is being taught in Class 6 and 10. So why is there such a hue and cry?”

Spoiler

Controversy over Tipu Sultan
Tipu Sultan has become a controversial figure in Karnataka, with one section calling him “a patriot who fought against the British for India’s independence”, and another, especially the Right wing, labelling him a ‘tyrant’ responsible for the massacre of several thousand Hindus.

In 2015, when the Siddaramaiah-led Congress was in power in Karnataka, it took the controversial decision to celebrate Tipu Sultan’s birth anniversary as an annual government event. However, this was met with stiff resistance from Right-wing groups, and as soon as B.S. Yediyurappa’s BJP government assumed power in 2019, one of its first decisions was to put a stop to this annual celebration.

In February this year, Education Minister Suresh Kumar had told this reporter that the government would not drop Tipu Sultan from the textbooks, adding that a committee had been set up to study the pros and cons of the issue as it needed more deliberation.

While the committee had suggested that the chapters be retained, they were dropped as part of the truncated syllabus. BJP sources told ThePrint that there was a growing demand among several leaders to drop lessons related to Tipu Sultan.

However, Tipu’s descendant, Sahebzada Mansoor Ali, told ThePrint that the decision was unacceptable. “Whether they accept Tipu Sultan or Hyder Ali or the Constitution, they are all part of history which cannot be changed,” Ali said.

“If care is not taken to ensure this syllabus change, then perhaps we will not be able to produce teachers like the late A.P.J. Abdul Kalam, whose teachings have inspired many and ignited young minds. The central government must act now because states are adopting policies that encourage religious hatred,” he added.

https://theprint.in/india/education...-karnataka-govt-puts-decision-on-hold/470832/

 

[pillionrider]

I'd like to believe that Pakistani Muslim pride in the Mughals to the point of confidently suggesting they are all that mattered in India, is based on ignorance. And I mean that in a polite way. Being ignorant isn't wrong because it can be changed.

The India of today includes the South you know and the Mughals hardly had a role here. We had the Rashtrakutas, Chalukyas, Cholas, Pandyas, Vijayanagar Empire, Bijapur Sultanate, Hoysalas and of course, Mysore and Tipu at various times before and after the Mughals, who barely made an entry here. They were all culturally and artistically rich and some of their works which still stand today are a marvel, if you only tried to open your minds beyond the Mughals

 

[gani999]

Compared to Mughals, Marathas are largely an insignificant player in India history and their peak lasted barely a few years. Mughal decline started after 1700AD

They allied with the British to win battles against Tipu sultan for eg. How is that heroic lol

Sikh empire was great but obv modi bhakts also won’t accept them wholeheartedly since they were clearly. Sikh

Maharaja Ranjit Singh's empire was a tenth of what the Marathas had under their sway, and lasted all of 50 years. I find it puzzling that you call them 'great' and yet don't think the Marathas deserve the same.

When the Marathas were at their peak, there were many players trying to control India, mostly the Europeans. Still they held sway over most of India for nearly 95 years, towering over the Rajputs, the Nizam and the vassals of the by then broken Mughal empire. They deserve credit for that.

The Mughals had the entire country to themselves for more than 200 years and yet squandered the opportunity to build a truly lasting empire. They ceased to be great after Akbar's death.

By the time Tipu Sultan came around, the French and British were well entrenched in India. The British managed to pull both the Nizam of Hyderabad and the Marathas into the alliance and shortchanged both of them at the end.

 

[Slog]

Maharaja Ranjit Singh's empire was a tenth of what the Marathas had under their sway, and lasted all of 50 years. I find it puzzling that you call them 'great' and yet don't think the Marathas deserve the same.

When the Marathas were at their peak, there were many players trying to control India, mostly the Europeans. Still they held sway over most of India for nearly 95 years, towering over the Rajputs, the Nizam and the vassals of the by then broken Mughal empire. They deserve credit for that.

The Mughals had the entire country to themselves for more than 200 years and yet squandered the opportunity to build a truly lasting empire. They ceased to be great after Akbar's death.

By the time Tipu Sultan came around, the French and British were well entrenched in India. The British managed to pull both the Nizam of Hyderabad and the Marathas into the alliance and shortchanged both of them at the end.

Lmao at not being great after Akbar.

It was great even after him under Jahangir, Shah Jahan and Aurangzeb. In fact under Aurangzeb they were at their zenith in terms of control of land

 

[Slog]

Lmao at not being great after Akbar.

It was great even after him under Jahangir, Shah Jahan and Aurangzeb. In fact under Aurangzeb they were at their zenith in terms of control of land

The Mughals has the entire subcontinent for over 200 years due to their strength not due to charity lol. You’re making it seem like there weren’t any attempts to defeat them. They also kept Europeans at bay for a large part of it who had designs to gain control

And no Marathas did not hold away for over 95 years. Their peak was 1750s and they lost control over the next few decades. In fact their empire officially ended before even the hapless Mughals of the 1800s

 

[Slog]

Just to clarify. I’m not even attacking Marathas or downplaying that they were important

I just find it hilarious to see bhakts praising them to the heavens and making the Marathas seem as the GOAT subcontinent empire in order to be able to put down the Mughals who they have turned against spectacularly in recent years

So pointing out this hypocrisy and development is pretty funny

 

[King_Kohli]

I'd like to believe that Pakistani Muslim pride in the Mughals to the point of confidently suggesting they are all that mattered in India, is based on ignorance. And I mean that in a polite way. Being ignorant isn't wrong because it can be changed.

The India of today includes the South you know and the Mughals hardly had a role here. We had the Rashtrakutas, Chalukyas, Cholas, Pandyas, Vijayanagar Empire, Bijapur Sultanate, Hoysalas and of course, Mysore and Tipu at various times before and after the Mughals, who barely made an entry here. They were all culturally and artistically rich and some of their works which still stand today are a marvel, if you only tried to open your minds beyond the Mughals

Yes
I am a south Indian.
People here dont know much about Mughals history and they dont even care.
As you mentioned above Chalukyas, Cholas, Pandyas, Vijayanagar were great Empire.

Mughuls and Nizam's are crap, not worthy to mention even in school syllabus.

I like only one Mughal king Babar.

 

[gani999]

Lmao at not being great after Akbar.

It was great even after him under Jahangir, Shah Jahan and Aurangzeb. In fact under Aurangzeb they were at their zenith in terms of control of land

Those three were the absolute disasters of the Mughal empire. Jahangir was mostly drunk and hardly ruled. His wife Noor Jehan was the unofficial ruler of the Mughal Empire. Shah Jehan did build some good monuments but his reign too was marked by endless raids by the Rajputs who he had a hard time controlling. And Aurangazeb controlling the most land? That's nonsense. Aurangazeb actually brought down the Mughal Empire by waging endless wars in the Deccan, emptying his royal treasury in the process. Most of his so-called conquests declared independence the moment he turned his back.
The three worthies you have named were in fact, the very nemesis of the Mughal Empire.

And the Mughals keeping away the Europeans? LOl at that. The first British who came as traders to Jehangir's court in 1613 had established huge fortifications on all of India's coasts by the end of Aurangzeb's rule in the 1690s. So much for keeping the Europeans out.

Coming back to the Marathas, nobody claimed that they were a great empire. But they did control most of India at a time when the Europeans, Mughals and everyone else were battling it out.

I'm somewhat sure Pakistan's history books paint the Mughals as the best thing that happened to the world, and everyone else as less than worthy. I would urge you to read the accounts of unbiased Western scholars to get a correct picture. The Mughal Throne by Abraham Eraly is a particularly good one.

 

[Slog]

Those three were the absolute disasters of the Mughal empire. Jahangir was mostly drunk and hardly ruled. His wife Noor Jehan was the unofficial ruler of the Mughal Empire. Shah Jehan did build some good monuments but his reign too was marked by endless raids by the Rajputs who he had a hard time controlling. And Aurangazeb controlling the most land? That's nonsense. Aurangazeb actually brought down the Mughal Empire by waging endless wars in the Deccan, emptying his royal treasury in the process. Most of his so-called conquests declared independence the moment he turned his back.
The three worthies you have named were in fact, the very nemesis of the Mughal Empire.

And the Mughals keeping away the Europeans? LOl at that. The first British who came as traders to Jehangir's court in 1613 had established huge fortifications on all of India's coasts by the end of Aurangzeb's rule in the 1690s. So much for keeping the Europeans out.

Coming back to the Marathas, nobody claimed that they were a great empire. But they did control most of India at a time when the Europeans, Mughals and everyone else were battling it out.

I'm somewhat sure Pakistan's history books paint the Mughals as the best thing that happened to the world, and everyone else as less than worthy. I would urge you to read the accounts of unbiased Western scholars to get a correct picture. The Mughal Throne by Abraham Eraly is a particularly good one.

I didn’t do the Pakistan schooling system on this

And I’ve read significantly about Mughals and Marathas. Also it’s historical fact not an argument that under Aurangzeb Mughals controlled most land of subcontinent. It’s not an opinion.

Mughals are an important historical power of the region which any one with a passing interest in history knows about whereas Marathas are virtually unknown outisde of subcontinent. They started out as a vassal of the Mughals empire. There’s no comparison in their influence and importance is what I’m saying. India even today is recognised most by a Mughal monument

 

[KB]

Mughals are an important historical power of the region which any one with a passing interest in history knows about

Indeed. Liked or not the Mughal Empire was significant.

It was the most powerful and unified empire before British rule in the Subcontinent. It established structures of centralised governance that would shape foundations of British rule. It provided a template in organising villages, districts and provinces. It was also a rich empire that attracted trade and connected India to the wider world. The aura and residual prestige of Mughal power would persist even as it fragmented with regional successor states drawing on Mughal ideas of kingship. Even the British adapted themselves to some of the trappings of Mughal courtly practice, holding durbars, bestowing robes of honour and writing Persian letters on paper that were sprinkled with gold dust. Today, Mughal architecture - forts, mosques, tombs - are visible reminders of the empire. We note finally that some of the Muslim descendants of the Mughal service elite would come to play a key role in the origins of Muslim political separatism in the nineteenth century.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I'd like to believe that Pakistani Muslim pride in the Mughals to the point of confidently suggesting they are all that mattered in India, is based on ignorance. And I mean that in a polite way. Being ignorant isn't wrong because it can be changed.

The India of today includes the South you know and the Mughals hardly had a role here. We had the Rashtrakutas, Chalukyas, Cholas, Pandyas, Vijayanagar Empire, Bijapur Sultanate, Hoysalas and of course, Mysore and Tipu at various times before and after the Mughals, who barely made an entry here. They were all culturally and artistically rich and some of their works which still stand today are a marvel, if you only tried to open your minds beyond the Mughals

Pakistanis aren't alone in being ignorant of South Indians, the most famous recent one in the west was probably Apu from the Simpsons. I would actually like to learn more about South Indian history, maybe we should have a thread about it?

 

[pillionrider]

Yes
I am a south Indian.
People here dont know much about Mughals history and they dont even care.
As you mentioned above Chalukyas, Cholas, Pandyas, Vijayanagar were great Empire.

We learn about the Mughals mostly in text books here, rather than culturally. There were big Muslim empires as I mentioned earlier like the Sultanates. But their artistic or cultural contribution wasn't as spectacular as some of the Mughal creations in the North

Mughuls and Nizam's are crap, not worthy to mention even in school syllabus.

I like only one Mughal king Babar.

Is that some kind of ironic joke that slipped by me?

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Those three were the absolute disasters of the Mughal empire. Jahangir was mostly drunk and hardly ruled. His wife Noor Jehan was the unofficial ruler of the Mughal Empire. Shah Jehan did build some good monuments but his reign too was marked by endless raids by the Rajputs who he had a hard time controlling. And Aurangazeb controlling the most land? That's nonsense. Aurangazeb actually brought down the Mughal Empire by waging endless wars in the Deccan, emptying his royal treasury in the process. Most of his so-called conquests declared independence the moment he turned his back.
The three worthies you have named were in fact, the very nemesis of the Mughal Empire.

And the Mughals keeping away the Europeans? LOl at that. The first British who came as traders to Jehangir's court in 1613 had established huge fortifications on all of India's coasts by the end of Aurangzeb's rule in the 1690s. So much for keeping the Europeans out.

Coming back to the Marathas, nobody claimed that they were a great empire. But they did control most of India at a time when the Europeans, Mughals and everyone else were battling it out.

I'm somewhat sure Pakistan's history books paint the Mughals as the best thing that happened to the world, and everyone else as less than worthy. I would urge you to read the accounts of unbiased Western scholars to get a correct picture. The Mughal Throne by Abraham Eraly is a particularly good one.

I will check out the book you have recommended.

However i would like to point out the reason that Mughals are so popular in Pakistan. The Muslim culture of North India and Pakistan, from clothing, language, cuisine, architecture, music, etc was influenced by the various Muslim dynasties, and as the Mughals are the most famous one, they simply get all the credit. These dynasties incorporated their Persian culture, with the local Indian culture, so maybe if Pakistan did a better job in also promoting the elements of their culture that came from the subcontinent, then maybe the Mughals would not be as hated in India by some people. Not saying you are one of them.

 

[pillionrider]

Pakistanis aren't alone in being ignorant of South Indians, the most famous recent one in the west was probably Apu from the Simpsons. I would actually like to learn more about South Indian history, maybe we should have a thread about it?

I don't share your fandom for the show and never got into it. But have seen enough episodes to know this character. Is he supposed to be South Indian. Or does he have some opinions on South Indians. If it's the former, lol, that's not how South Indians speak. That accent seems more like a Gujarati Patel. An NRI Patel, more likely.

In the South, we have thick distinguishable accents by state. Tamilians have their own, Mallus theirs, and in Karnataka there is a specific Bangalorean accent. Andhra folk have their own I guess, but it's not that specific at least while talking about it. Maybe because they talk back to you in Telugu at the first given opportunity

For Bangalorean accents, look up Danish Sait. He does a great job on the accents here. He is Muslim. Just threw that in there, cuz I know it will appeal to the hardcore Pakistani beneath your British armour

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

I'd like to believe that Pakistani Muslim pride in the Mughals to the point of confidently suggesting they are all that mattered in India, is based on ignorance. And I mean that in a polite way. Being ignorant isn't wrong because it can be changed.

The India of today includes the South you know and the Mughals hardly had a role here. We had the Rashtrakutas, Chalukyas, Cholas, Pandyas, Vijayanagar Empire, Bijapur Sultanate, Hoysalas and of course, Mysore and Tipu at various times before and after the Mughals, who barely made an entry here. They were all culturally and artistically rich and some of their works which still stand today are a marvel, if you only tried to open your minds beyond the Mughals

yes because Pakistan can be considered part of North India historically. Most Pakistanis have very little knowledge about South India and for the most part they have no interest in learning anything about South India either. Only exception is Tipu Sultan, and i am sure you can guess the reason why Pakistanis might care for him.

We do have some people from South India who came to Karachi during partition, but they are not that large in numbers, so besides from their food, we dont know that much about their culture, as they have assimilated into the rest of the population.

With that said i have met alot of South Indians here in the US, and I feel most of them are smarter than the average North Indian and Pakistani. And it does not seem surprising that South India is economically better than North India. So i am all for having more South Indian influence in Pakistan. Maybe have some movies/ tv shows dubbed in Urdu. Teaching South Indian history would also not be a bad idea.

 

[Mesozoic]

Tipu sultan should get as much love in India as Maharaja Ranjith Singh gets in Pakistan.

 

[CricketCartoons]

[/B]

I will check out the book you have recommended.

However i would like to point out the reason that Mughals are so popular in Pakistan. The Muslim culture of North India and Pakistan, from clothing, language, cuisine, architecture, music, etc was influenced by the various Muslim dynasties, and as the Mughals are the most famous one, they simply get all the credit. These dynasties incorporated their Persian culture, with the local Indian culture, so maybe if Pakistan did a better job in also promoting the elements of their culture that came from the subcontinent, then maybe the Mughals would not be as hated in India by some people. Not saying you are one of them.

The main reason mughals are popular in pakistan is because they were muslims. everything else is tertiary. and this is how it should be. One should look for pride and inspiration in their own religion and should promote and propagate it for future generations. This is where we hindus fall behind, as we don't have heroes in our religion, and have to do with meek weak and spineless ones like gandhi or borrow muslim ones who let hindus be, like akbar. hopefully the current hindu leaders will fill our barren cupboard.

 

[pillionrider]

yes because Pakistan can be considered part of North India historically. Most Pakistanis have very little knowledge about South India and for the most part they have no interest in learning anything about South India either. Only exception is Tipu Sultan, and i am sure you can guess the reason why Pakistanis might care for him.

We do have some people from South India who came to Karachi during partition, but they are not that large in numbers, so besides from their food, we dont know that much about their culture, as they have assimilated into the rest of the population.

Yeah. Though I don't think Pakistanis should have to learn anything about South India just for the sake of being balanced. But if they're interested in culture, history or art, it would be a good idea to look at the South just to expand on their existing knowledge of the Mughals in these spheres.

With that said i have met alot of South Indians here in the US, and I feel most of them are smarter than the average North Indian and Pakistani. And it does not seem surprising that South India is economically better than North India. So i am all for having more South Indian influence in Pakistan. Maybe have some movies/ tv shows dubbed in Urdu. Teaching South Indian history would also not be a bad idea.

Some time back I'd have wholeheartedly agreed with you. But it's not necessarily true. South Indians tend to focus on education and academics. They also tended to read and watch things more broadly. Which can make them easier to get along with or have a conversation that doesn't involve Bollwyood and money But I wouldn't claim that the South is more intelligent or anything

 

[CricketCartoons]

Some time back I'd have wholeheartedly agreed with you. But it's not necessarily true. South Indians tend to focus on education and academics. They also tended to read and watch things more broadly. Which can make them easier to get along with or have a conversation that doesn't involve Bollwyood and money But I wouldn't claim that the South is more intelligent or anything

Tam Brams are the most intelligent community in india.

 

[pillionrider]

Tam Brams are the most intelligent community in india.

Iyengars would be severely offended that you blanket lumped them with Iyers

 

[pillionrider]

Most Pakistanis have very little knowledge about South India and for the most part they have no interest in learning anything about South India either. Only exception is Tipu Sultan, and i am sure you can guess the reason why Pakistanis might care for him.

Actually Pakistanis from a religious history pov should probably have a look at the Muslims of the southern state of Kerala. There's a good chance the Kerala Muslims predate any group in Pakistan as followers of Islam.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I don't share your fandom for the show and never got into it. But have seen enough episodes to know this character. Is he supposed to be South Indian. Or does he have some opinions on South Indians. If it's the former, lol, that's not how South Indians speak. That accent seems more like a Gujarati Patel. An NRI Patel, more likely.

In the South, we have thick distinguishable accents by state. Tamilians have their own, Mallus theirs, and in Karnataka there is a specific Bangalorean accent. Andhra folk have their own I guess, but it's not that specific at least while talking about it. Maybe because they talk back to you in Telugu at the first given opportunity

For Bangalorean accents, look up Danish Sait. He does a great job on the accents here. He is Muslim. Just threw that in there, cuz I know it will appeal to the hardcore Pakistani beneath your British armour

Definitely seems like there is much scope for more exploration of south Indian culture, and maybe state by state. But what has intrigued me recently apart from your posts regarding the Mughals, has been Indian PP champion joshila bhai's claims that his ancestors fought against invaders whereas others succumbed to their might/charms. When I probed as to why his ancestors fought while others around them didn't, he disappeared as I expected, but would certainly make for an interesting and informative change from the usual fare on these boards.

 

[KB]

Actually Pakistanis from a religious history pov should probably have a look at the Muslims of the southern state of Kerala. There's a good chance the Kerala Muslims predate any group in Pakistan as followers of Islam.

I am certainly not an expert on the Muslims of Kerala but from what I have across their history is indeed fascinating.

First we note, as indicated above, that the Muslims of this region formed one of the earliest Islamic communities in South Asia. Trade had brought Arabs to the southern coasts and Muslim communities were established by the early eighth century. 


Second, in contrast to northern India, where Perso-Islamic culture was dominant among the elites, in Kerala it was Arab-Islamic culture. The Muslims of Kerala looked more to the Indian ocean than Central Asia, used Arabic rather than Persian, and preferred Shafi’i jurisprudence over Hanafi law. As historian Roland Miller wrote:

“Without dismissing the Mappila love for Malayalam, their mother tongue, their regard for Arabic is a kind of wonder. Arguably, very few Muslim societies outside of the Arab world can match the Mappila experience with Arabic. The stature it holds has great emotional, linguistic, religious, and educational implications.”

Thirdly, some developed a tradition of holy war and martyrdom climaxing in the rebellion of 1921-22. This has been ably documented by Stephen Dale in his book Islamic Society on the South Asian Frontier.

Fourthly, there is a remarkable degree of religious organisation within Mappila society. Roland Miller has noted that there are many madrassas, religious teachers and an abundance of mosques which point to “the element of “Godwardness” at the core of Mappila culture.”

 

[CricketCartoons]

I am certainly not an expert on the Muslims of Kerala but from what I have across their history is indeed fascinating.

First we note, as indicated above, that the Muslims of this region formed one of the earliest Islamic communities in South Asia. Trade had brought Arabs to the southern coasts and Muslim communities were established by the early eighth century. 


Second, in contrast to northern India, where Perso-Islamic culture was dominant among the elites, in Kerala it was Arab-Islamic culture. The Muslims of Kerala looked more to the Indian ocean than Central Asia, used Arabic rather than Persian, and preferred Shafi’i jurisprudence over Hanafi law. As historian Roland Miller wrote:

“Without dismissing the Mappila love for Malayalam, their mother tongue, their regard for Arabic is a kind of wonder. Arguably, very few Muslim societies outside of the Arab world can match the Mappila experience with Arabic. The stature it holds has great emotional, linguistic, religious, and educational implications.”

Thirdly, some developed a tradition of holy war and martyrdom climaxing in the rebellion of 1921-22. This has been ably documented by Stephen Dale in his book Islamic Society on the South Asian Frontier.

Fourthly, there is a remarkable degree of religious organisation within Mappila society. Roland Miller has noted that there are many madrassas, religious teachers and an abundance of mosques which point to “the element of “Godwardness” at the core of Mappila culture.”

This is just my (weak) opinion without any research. Wherever Islam was spread by contact with traders, the local muslim names reflected their local culture. Like south east asia and malabar coast in india. Otherwise the converted muslims took on purely arabic names. What do you think about it?

 

[KB]

This is just my (weak) opinion without any research. Wherever Islam was spread by contact with traders, the local muslim names reflected their local culture. Like south east asia and malabar coast in india. Otherwise the converted muslims took on purely arabic names. What do you think about it?

This is an intriguing thought. But I think across South Asia - whether we take the Indus heartlands, the Bengal frontier or the Malabar coast - a Muslim identity emerges in interaction with local culture. This is not something that remains static but is always evolving.

In this context, contrary to popular perceptions, conversion is better understood as a long drawn out process rather than an event. As Rafiuddin Ahmed has shown, it was as late as the nineteenth century in Bengal that many Muslims ceased to invoke the name of God as ‘Sri Sri Iswar’ and adopted Muslim surnames. On the other side of the Subcontinent, Richard Eaton has indicated that in Pakpattan, “it was as early as the fifteenth century, [that] Muslim names began to appear among Jat tribes associated with Baba Farid’s shrine, but they did not become dominant among those tribes until the early eighteenth, indicating a very slow and apparently unconscious process of Islamization.”

 

[Slog]

Tipu sultan should get as much love in India as Maharaja Ranjith Singh gets in Pakistan.

Tbf I think he gets veneration in Punjab Pakistan for sure. His tomb (samdhi) gets visitors and there are streets named after him and even a statue was erected. And this despite him being anti Muslim and turning Badshahi mosque into a stable so that clearly fits definition of a bigoted act. But I found out about that from Indians taking pride on that act on an Internet forum rather than any pakiStani history book or discourse

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

This is just my (weak) opinion without any research. Wherever Islam was spread by contact with traders, the local muslim names reflected their local culture. Like south east asia and malabar coast in india. Otherwise the converted muslims took on purely arabic names. What do you think about it?

Are you talking about first names or surnames?

For first names, Muslims like most other people, give them based on their religious and cultural language.

So in subcontinent Muslims have names in Arabic and Persian. In Indonesia they have names based on Arabic and Sanskrit. In Turkey based on Arabic and Turkish.

Similar to how Europeans have names based on Biblical figures (Hebrew) and their local languages.

If you are talking about surnames, there is no shortage of people who have local surnames. I mean there are Muslims with the surnames of "Rajput", and "Pandit". So many different surnames of various Jatt, Rajput, etc clans.

In subcontinent Persian was the language of the elite, so it should be no surprise the rest of the Muslim population gave names from that language as well.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

This is an intriguing thought. But I think across South Asia - whether we take the Indus heartlands, the Bengal frontier or the Malabar coast - a Muslim identity emerges in interaction with local culture. This is not something that remains static but is always evolving.

In this context, contrary to popular perceptions, conversion is better understood as a long drawn out process rather than an event. As Rafiuddin Ahmed has shown, it was as late as the nineteenth century in Bengal that many Muslims ceased to invoke the name of God as ‘Sri Sri Iswar’ and adopted Muslim surnames. On the other side of the Subcontinent, Richard Eaton has indicated that in Pakpattan, “it was as early as the fifteenth century, [that] Muslim names began to appear among Jat tribes associated with Baba Farid’s shrine, but they did not become dominant among those tribes until the early eighteenth, indicating a very slow and apparently unconscious process of Islamization.”

I had never heard of that. But it makes sense, same with Persians used "'Khuda" for God, it makes sense for Muslims to have used "Sri Sri Iswar". It also makes sense for them to eventually transition to using Khuda, as Persian was the language of the elite.

 

[King_Kohli]

yes because Pakistan can be considered part of North India historically. Most Pakistanis have very little knowledge about South India and for the most part they have no interest in learning anything about South India either. Only exception is Tipu Sultan, and i am sure you can guess the reason why Pakistanis might care for him.

We do have some people from South India who came to Karachi during partition, but they are not that large in numbers, so besides from their food, we dont know that much about their culture, as they have assimilated into the rest of the population.

With that said i have met a lot of South Indians here in the US, and I feel most of them are smarter than the average North Indian and Pakistani. And it does not seem surprising that South India is economically better than North India. So i am all for having more South Indian influence in Pakistan. Maybe have some movies/ tv shows dubbed in Urdu. Teaching South Indian history would also not be a bad idea.

You will find more South Indians than North Indians in US.
Particularly from Andhra, Tamilnadu and Karnataka, they have many associations in USA.

Punjabi's prefer Canada
Kerala people prefer UAE/Saudi
North Indians/ Gujarati's prefer UK

I am not sure about your smarter logic on what basis

 

[King_Kohli]

Some time back I'd have wholeheartedly agreed with you. But it's not necessarily true. South Indians tend to focus on education and academics. They also tended to read and watch things more broadly. Which can make them easier to get along with or have a conversation that doesn't involve Bollwyood and money But I wouldn't claim that the South is more intelligent or anything

Yes, Bollywood is not big thing for South Indians.
North Indians are very much interested, my North Indian colleagues always talk about Bollywood gossips.

Myself I cant speak and understand Hindi, I rarely watch Bollywood movies.
PK was the last movie I watched

I prefer South Indian movies Mallu, Telugu, Tamil and Kannada.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

You will find more South Indians than North Indians in US.
Particularly from Andhra, Tamilnadu and Karnataka, they have many associations in USA.

Punjabi's prefer Canada
Kerala people prefer UAE/Saudi
North Indians/ Gujarati's prefer UK

I am not sure about your smarter logic on what basis

There are plenty of Gujartis and Punjabi's in the US as well. South Indians seem to do better academically. Alot of Gujarati's, Punjabi's i know just go into business, like running convenience stores, to fast food restaurants to hotels. Nothing wrong with that, and in fact you can make good money doing so. Even more than the professional white collar jobs.

South Indians are more into the white collar professions, i have not seen many doing the above mentioned business. Also almost every spelling bee in the US is won by a South Indian.

I feel it takes more brain power to do something like a PHD in Quantum physics, than running a business.

Its just by personal anecdotal experience from my interactions with various Indian communities here in the US. I could be wrong.

 

[King_Kohli]

There are plenty of Gujartis and Punjabi's in the US as well. South Indians seem to do better academically. Alot of Gujarati's, Punjabi's i know just go into business, like running convenience stores, to fast food restaurants to hotels. Nothing wrong with that, and in fact you can make good money doing so. Even more than the professional white collar jobs.

South Indians are more into the white collar professions, i have not seen many doing the above mentioned business. Also almost every spelling bee in the US is won by a South Indian.

I feel it takes more brain power to do something like a PHD in Quantum physics, than running a business.

Its just by personal anecdotal experience from my interactions with various Indian communities here in the US. I could be wrong.

Your observations are pretty right .
North Indians are very good at business, Gujaraitis , Punjabi's and Marwadi's penetrated every where in India and outside. A majority have many businesses and they want their children to take over their business.

South Indian parents are little crazy, very strict with their kids about their studies and take active interest in their academic performances.
Some students constantly traumatized by their parents, you have betrayed me, you haven't kept your promise, you have ashamed me, how will I stand in front of relatives blah blah blah.

South Indians are obsessed with academics and Jobs, very few people prefer business.

 

[Slog]

There are plenty of Gujartis and Punjabi's in the US as well. South Indians seem to do better academically. Alot of Gujarati's, Punjabi's i know just go into business, like running convenience stores, to fast food restaurants to hotels. Nothing wrong with that, and in fact you can make good money doing so. Even more than the professional white collar jobs.

South Indians are more into the white collar professions, i have not seen many doing the above mentioned business. Also almost every spelling bee in the US is won by a South Indian.

I feel it takes more brain power to do something like a PHD in Quantum physics, than running a business.

Its just by personal anecdotal experience from my interactions with various Indian communities here in the US. I could be wrong.

Your observations are pretty right .
North Indians are very good at business, Gujaraitis , Punjabi's and Marwadi's penetrated every where in India and outside. A majority have many businesses and they want their children to take over their business.

South Indian parents are little crazy, very strict with their kids about their studies and take active interest in their academic performances.
Some students constantly traumatized by their parents, you have betrayed me, you haven't kept your promise, you have ashamed me, how will I stand in front of relatives blah blah blah.

South Indians are obsessed with academics and Jobs, very few people prefer business.

I had very hit uakmal) thread about South India few years ago.

these posts belong there

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?222553-South-India

 

[JaDed]

Tipu sultan should get as much love in India as Maharaja Ranjith Singh gets in Pakistan.

I always knew BJP supporters looked upto Pakistan to make their decisions, thanks for confirming the same.

 

[Mesozoic]

I always knew BJP supporters looked upto Pakistan to make their decisions, thanks for confirming the same.

I'm not a BJP supporter nor I'm "looking upto Pakistan" for anything.

We are on a Pakistani site/forum so there's nothing wrong in refering to corresponding figures for context.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Tipu sultan should get as much love in India as Maharaja Ranjith Singh gets in Pakistan.

https://www.dawn.com/news/1491672

statue of ranjeet singh in lahore. so can we expect one of tipu sultan in mysore?

 

[gani999]

https://www.dawn.com/news/1491672

statue of ranjeet singh in lahore. so can we expect one of tipu sultan in mysore?

There are, both in Mysore and Bangalore.

 

[King_Kohli]

https://www.dawn.com/news/1491672

statue of ranjeet singh in lahore. so can we expect one of tipu sultan in mysore?

There are so many statues of Tipu

 

[Greenstorm]

Long time back, I read a book on Tipu and if I remember right he even had Hindu commanders in his army which was surprising for me.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

There are, both in Mysore and Bangalore.

There are so many statues of Tipu

Ok. Did not know that.

 

[gani999]

Long time back, I read a book on Tipu and if I remember right he even had Hindu commanders in his army which was surprising for me.

One of Tipu's most trusted ministers, who was also a commander in his army, was a Hindu, Purnaiya Krishnacharya. This man also served under Tipu's father, Hyder Ali. It is said that after Hyder Ali's death, Purnaiya played a key role in installing Tipu as the successor. There were allegedly, many of Hyder's relatives who had their eyes on the throne and wanted Tipu out of the way.

After Tipu's death, Purnaiya also went on to serve the British and the Hindu Wodeyar family, who they had installed as the rulers of Mysore.

 

[pillionrider]

statue of ranjeet singh in lahore. so can we expect one of tipu sultan in mysore?

As others have pointed out, there are plenty. A little before this Corona thing I was aimlessly driving a little outside the city and came across a Tipu fort that isn't famous at all but had an Archaeological board stamped outside it. Thing is, structures and statues of Tipu and lots of other Muslim kings have been protected and even venerated over the years.

Hindu-Muslim divides were always there even before the BJP. A small part of what is happening now in India is a reaction to the past over-glorification of people who were guilty of crimes against the majority Hindu population.

Pakistanis might get excited now under Imran Khan as they take strides, but truth is, India has been far ahead. And so, when we start to behave bigoted now, the contrast becomes more stark in comparison to our past.

There was a Rafale-is-coming type frenzy years back, when erstwhile billionaire Vijay Mallya bought Tipu's sword in an auction. The sword allegedly has some lines inscribed on it that aren't exactly pleasant to a non-Muslim. And yet, the whole state of Karnataka was in celebration for weeks. It's a different matter that the sword went missing years later, after Mallya felt it was bringing him bad luck

Long time back, I read a book on Tipu and if I remember right he even had Hindu commanders in his army which was surprising for me.

Tipu had Hindu astrologers for whom he constructed temples in Srirangapatna

One of my Dad's friends still owns lands that were donated to his ancestral family by Tipu. The family were traditionally Ayurveda practitioners.

So Tipu wasn't all, destroy-Hindus. You could argue that his benevolence was mostly towards useful Hindus. But [MENTION=136588]CricketCartoons[/MENTION] would be better placed to talk more on that