Origins of Islam: Mecca vs Petra?

[miandadrules]

There is mounting archeological evidence that suggests that the traditional narrative of the origins of Islam has little to no factual evidence.

I’ve been following this since the late 90s but it has really ramped up over the last few years.

What I find intriguing is that Islamic world seems oblivious to these findings.

Do you, as Muslims, feel it is better to ignore or to propose an explanation?

 

[Tubs]

Interesting, do you have any sources at all? I know there was some controversy about a Syriac-Aramaic Quran and some inconsistencies with the Arabic one, but I believe it's against the academic consensus. Will be very interesting when textual criticism of the Quran becomes as big a field as it is for the Bible, we even had Yasir Qadhi himself say that the Quran can't be shown to be perfectly preserved.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

There were more than 100.000 prophets before the Last PBUH one.

That's a lot of lifetimes, generations, civilizations and forgotten ages.

The world is an ancient place. What we know last 20 thousand years of history is nothing.

 

[TSA321]

Just curious, what new evidence has been found in the last few years?

 

[Bewal Express]

There is mounting archeological evidence that suggests that the traditional narrative of the origins of Islam has little to no factual evidence.

I’ve been following this since the late 90s but it has really ramped up over the last few years.

What I find intriguing is that Islamic world seems oblivious to these findings.

Do you, as Muslims, feel it is better to ignore or to propose an explanation?

It seems that the likes of you and others are desperate to prove to yourself that you are right in being a Kaffir. The fact is that those of us who believe don't care for your personal anguish. Its your loss, not ours. Ultimately, it's matter of faith and my faith is strong and so is the faith of a billion others. We are not perfect and make mistakes. I feel blessed to be born as a Muslim, and may my last words on this journey( whenever it comes) be the Kalima

 

[Stewie]

Interesting to note that Islam being the youngest religion has probably the most well documented and academically accepted history.

For instance, Jewish scholars will probably debate you for months arguing Jesus did not exist and is a made up legend.
Same with other Prophets who have not much documented history. Other religions are also similar.

 

[Giannis]

A lot of "academia" is politically motivated. Islam literally has one of the best documented histories, there's no doubt that Islam originated in Makkah, the Prophet PBUH grave and the grave of all his close family and companions and all the holy sites of Islam are located in Makkah and Medina barring Al Aqsa. Even if Petra had a connection (which I doubt), it's all part of Arabia.

 

[Giannis]

It's funny OP is pushing his agenda without even supporting it with facts, I'm aware that people get paid to push agendas online, it's a sad life. Funnily enough, if you search about this topic the first thing on google is this link

https://muslimheritage.com/the-petra-fallacy/

It's from a Canadian anthropologist and he goes on to debunk the fallacy

 

[wajid]

There is mounting archeological evidence that suggests that the traditional narrative of the origins of Islam has little to no factual evidence.

I’ve been following this since the late 90s but it has really ramped up over the last few years.

What I find intriguing is that Islamic world seems oblivious to these findings.

Do you, as Muslims, feel it is better to ignore or to propose an explanation?

Do you care to elaborate?? What kind of archeological evidence??

 

[Bewal Express]

It's funny OP is pushing his agenda without even supporting it with facts, I'm aware that people get paid to push agendas online, it's a sad life. Funnily enough, if you search about this topic the first thing on google is this link

https://muslimheritage.com/the-petra-fallacy/

It's from a Canadian anthropologist and he goes on to debunk the fallacy

You often see these threads where these guys need therapy and affirmation on their flight from Islam. They are desperate for someone to tell them they are onto something.

 

[Tubs]

A lot of "academia" is politically motivated. Islam literally has one of the best documented histories, there's no doubt that Islam originated in Makkah, the Prophet PBUH grave and the grave of all his close family and companions and all the holy sites of Islam are located in Makkah and Medina barring Al Aqsa. Even if Petra had a connection (which I doubt), it's all part of Arabia.

You can't simultaneously say academia has an agenda and then appeal to it when it's convenient to you. The Far Right do the same thing by saying academia has an agenda.

 

[Technics 1210]

Someone educate the OP; Muslims used to pray towards Jerusalem before the Kaaba in Mecca.

Move on from this troll thread.

 

[wajid]

It's funny OP is pushing his agenda without even supporting it with facts, I'm aware that people get paid to push agendas online, it's a sad life. Funnily enough, if you search about this topic the first thing on google is this link

https://muslimheritage.com/the-petra-fallacy/

It's from a Canadian anthropologist and he goes on to debunk the fallacy

Very nice article. And really sad for those who has to resort to such nonsense. One more thing to note is that historically Muslims were aware that the direction to Qibla is approximate and not exact. This is reflected in legal or fiqh tradition which even in modern times gives big latitude in terms of determination of direction. So for example I read that 45 degrees both ways from the exact direction is fine!! From a place like US with huge distance, this will be a massive area.

 

[Technics 1210]

Of course, the Qur'an states Islam started with Adam (PBUH).

Atheism was, and remains, a bankrupt and ignorant ideology. These lot cannot even read the books right.

 

[Stewie]

There are some YouTube videos floating around made by the same expert. Or maybe it’s a different one?

Old news, don’t think any of the claims were proven... just sensationalism at best

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

No problem at all with it. Even the OP himself has said this is the traditional or narrative view which is being questioned, and those by definition can be questioned. But then so can every other narrative or "factual evidence".

 

[PetroDollars]

There has been documentries made recently, they take the research from oxford uni done under patricia crone during the 70s and 80s, which state the holy city wasnt mecca and was north of medina, it wasnt conclusive and couldve caused controversy so it wasnt made public and they didnt mention the actual city which some now speculate it to be petra.

 

[sindhiboy]

A guys called mufti abu layth has done a good video on this topic.

 

[LongHorn]

These are dangerous conspiracies to create doubt in minds of Muslims

In an effort to grant Israel full legitimacy over Al Aqsa there was a theory pushed by some Saudis last year that the "Aqsa" that Prophet pbuh went to Isra Miraj from is actually a place in Saudi near Taif (!). And not Aqsa in Quds, in other words, the Masjid Aqsa has nothing to do with Isra wal Miraj

 

[PetroDollars]

A guys called mufti abu layth has done a good video on this topic.

Is there any neutral unbiased sources?

 

[sweep_shot]

These are dangerous conspiracies to create doubt in minds of Muslims

In an effort to grant Israel full legitimacy over Al Aqsa there was a theory pushed by some Saudis last year that the "Aqsa" that Prophet pbuh went to Isra Miraj from is actually a place in Saudi near Taif (!). And not Aqsa in Quds, in other words, the Masjid Aqsa has nothing to do with Isra wal Miraj

I agree.

Muslims shouldn't fall for these theories.

 

[sweep_shot]

There is mounting archeological evidence that suggests that the traditional narrative of the origins of Islam has little to no factual evidence.

I’ve been following this since the late 90s but it has really ramped up over the last few years.

What I find intriguing is that Islamic world seems oblivious to these findings.

Do you, as Muslims, feel it is better to ignore or to propose an explanation?

As far as I am concerned, these are fake news. These are as credible as flat Earth theories.

 

[guna]

I believe it’s Petra or some place in northern Arabia. Definitely not Hijaj area.

Makkah was supposed to be the mother of all cities where business was great and thousands of caravans used to go everyday for business. Hijaj area has no water source except for zam zam which is a small well.

Hadith say that prophet used to walk on streets with olive trees. Hijaj area does not have any of it.

Petra was the center of Nabatian culture. It has Eve that Hadith describes about where Prophet used to live. All of the earlier mosques used to point to Petra too.

It was only during the time of Abdul Malik that the narrative was shifted. Abbasids made Hijaj as the center of Islam.

No wonder we do not find any Hadith or seerah of Prophet Muhammad from the 7th century. It was only in the late 8th century and the early ninth century that the current accepted Islamic narrative came into existence.

There is absolutely no evidence that any of the early 7th century history of standard Islamic narrative is true. There is no evidence of any Rashidun Caliphs either. Everything starts from 690 AD with Caliph Abdul Malik bin Marwan. The first time even Shahada was known was from Caliph Abdul Malik on his coins. His father caliph Marwan had coins with holy cross on it. Something is definitely not right.

 

[MenInG]

Is there any factual evidence to this?

 

[guna]

Is there any factual evidence to this?

You can watch Dan Gibson's video. Its on Youtube. The archeology points to the origin of Islam as Northern Arabia or Levant. Entire Nabatean culture was concentrated around Syria. Hijaj is just too barren to host any significant population of humans and animals.

 

[Stewie]

You can watch Dan Gibson's video. Its on Youtube. The archeology points to the origin of Islam as Northern Arabia or Levant. Entire Nabatean culture was concentrated around Syria. Hijaj is just too barren to host any significant population of humans and animals.

So why would someone go to such an extent to change the narrative? What did one hope to achieve from all this, make up Khulfa Rashidun, Hadith and Seerah?

It doesnt make any sense why would someone go to the extent to staging such an elaborate hoax!

 

[guna]

So why would someone go to such an extent to change the narrative? What did one hope to achieve from all this, make up Khulfa Rashidun, Hadith and Seerah?

It doesnt make any sense why would someone go to the extent to staging such an elaborate hoax!

Political move. The conflict between Umayyad and Abbasid transition. You can watch the video yourself.

There was no mention of Muslims or Prophet Muhammed prior to Caliph Abdel Malik. All of the previous Caliphs used coins with Byzantine cross or the Zoroastrian symbols on their coins.

The early history of Islam is pretty murky and unclear. When Arabs conquered Jerusalem, the conquerors were called Huggerines (progeny of Hagar) or Ismaelites (descendents of Ishmael). There was no mention of either Prophet Muhammed or Muslims or Islam according to the Jews and Christians of Jerusalem.

According to Dan Gibson, the first mosque to point towards the modern day Mecca was the Mosque built in Bahawalpur in Pakistan in early 700's. Think it is around 710 AD.

Everything is mentioned in Dan Gibson's documentary. More and more evidence is coming out. Also, the archeology around the present day Mecca yielded nothing. No monuments, no coins, no inscriptions, no pottery nothing was found by Archeologists to even think that there was once a bustling city in Mecca in the early 7th century.

 

[PetroDollars]

Is there any factual evidence to this?

Its not conclusive but yes there is alot of evidence which was backed by Oxford uni and SOAS.
The conclusion is all evidence about what happened 1500 years was destoryed and manipulated by the abbasids.

You can watch Dan Gibson's video. Its on Youtube. The archeology points to the origin of Islam as Northern Arabia or Levant. Entire Nabatean culture was concentrated around Syria. Hijaj is just too barren to host any significant population of humans and animals.

Dan Gobson is cashing in, the real research was done by patrica crone

 

[KingKhanWC]

I believe it’s Petra or some place in northern Arabia. Definitely not Hijaj area.

Makkah was supposed to be the mother of all cities where business was great and thousands of caravans used to go everyday for business. Hijaj area has no water source except for zam zam which is a small well.

Hadith say that prophet used to walk on streets with olive trees. Hijaj area does not have any of it.

Petra was the center of Nabatian culture. It has Eve that Hadith describes about where Prophet used to live. All of the earlier mosques used to point to Petra too.

It was only during the time of Abdul Malik that the narrative was shifted. Abbasids made Hijaj as the center of Islam.

No wonder we do not find any Hadith or seerah of Prophet Muhammad from the 7th century. It was only in the late 8th century and the early ninth century that the current accepted Islamic narrative came into existence.

There is absolutely no evidence that any of the early 7th century history of standard Islamic narrative is true. There is no evidence of any Rashidun Caliphs either. Everything starts from 690 AD with Caliph Abdul Malik bin Marwan. The first time even Shahada was known was from Caliph Abdul Malik on his coins. His father caliph Marwan had coins with holy cross on it. Something is definitely not right.

Prob the biggest claim made on this forum with no evidence from the OP. lol

Is this is the best we have lol.

1. Zam Zam is not a small well, to this day milllions of galoons are drunk. Its a real life miracle.

2. Athiests and non-Muslims may not realise but you always go to the Quran first. Try Surah 48:24, it mentions Mecca.

Crackpot theories shouldnt be entertained.

 

[Halaribo]

Patricia Crone??? Lol

Tom Holland made a bit of money off the back of her work, and that's it.

She doesn't present anything that is accepted by anyone and her whole approach to this type of academia was a failure and never accepted.

Her work can all be summised as alternate universe and what if fan fiction.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Its not conclusive but yes there is alot of evidence which was backed by Oxford uni and SOAS.
The conclusion is all evidence about what happened 1500 years was destoryed and manipulated by the abbasids.



Dan Gobson is cashing in, the real research was done by patrica crone

She has been proved to be fraud.

https://www.muslim-library.com/dl/books/English_A_Response_to_Patricia_Crones_Book_Meccan_Trade.pdf

 

[Giannis]

I believe it’s Petra or some place in northern Arabia. Definitely not Hijaj area.

Makkah was supposed to be the mother of all cities where business was great and thousands of caravans used to go everyday for business. Hijaj area has no water source except for zam zam which is a small well.

Hadith say that prophet used to walk on streets with olive trees. Hijaj area does not have any of it.

Petra was the center of Nabatian culture. It has Eve that Hadith describes about where Prophet used to live. All of the earlier mosques used to point to Petra too.

It was only during the time of Abdul Malik that the narrative was shifted. Abbasids made Hijaj as the center of Islam.

No wonder we do not find any Hadith or seerah of Prophet Muhammad from the 7th century. It was only in the late 8th century and the early ninth century that the current accepted Islamic narrative came into existence.

There is absolutely no evidence that any of the early 7th century history of standard Islamic narrative is true. There is no evidence of any Rashidun Caliphs either. Everything starts from 690 AD with Caliph Abdul Malik bin Marwan. The first time even Shahada was known was from Caliph Abdul Malik on his coins. His father caliph Marwan had coins with holy cross on it. Something is definitely not right.

It's Hejaz not hijaj" You gotta slip in the indian accent everywhere, even when you type lol

 

[GenericBrand]

Its an interesting 'what-if' scenario but Crone's works has been rejected by even non-Muslim scholars as well.

Heck she herself has criticized her own works.

 

[Tubs]

Prob the biggest claim made on this forum with no evidence from the OP. lol

Is this is the best we have lol.

1. Zam Zam is not a small well, to this day milllions of galoons are drunk. Its a real life miracle.

2. Athiests and non-Muslims may not realise but you always go to the Quran first. Try Surah 48:24, it mentions Mecca.

Crackpot theories shouldnt be entertained.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamzam_Well#Technical_information

Zam zam well is no miracle, it taps water from a valley (which is replenished by rain). I understand medieval Arabs without knowledge of hydrology/geology thinking it's a miracle, but there's no excuse for those with access to the internet.

 

[Stewie]

Political move. The conflict between Umayyad and Abbasid transition. You can watch the video yourself.

There was no mention of Muslims or Prophet Muhammed prior to Caliph Abdel Malik. All of the previous Caliphs used coins with Byzantine cross or the Zoroastrian symbols on their coins.

The early history of Islam is pretty murky and unclear. When Arabs conquered Jerusalem, the conquerors were called Huggerines (progeny of Hagar) or Ismaelites (descendents of Ishmael). There was no mention of either Prophet Muhammed or Muslims or Islam according to the Jews and Christians of Jerusalem.

According to Dan Gibson, the first mosque to point towards the modern day Mecca was the Mosque built in Bahawalpur in Pakistan in early 700's. Think it is around 710 AD.

Everything is mentioned in Dan Gibson's documentary. More and more evidence is coming out. Also, the archeology around the present day Mecca yielded nothing. No monuments, no coins, no inscriptions, no pottery nothing was found by Archeologists to even think that there was once a bustling city in Mecca in the early 7th century.

Its history, old news.. its not any murkier than any other type of history from that era or before. What do you know quite clearly about christianity then? explain that..

 

[KingKhanWC]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamzam_Well#Technical_information

Zam zam well is no miracle, it taps water from a valley (which is replenished by rain). I understand medieval Arabs without knowledge of hydrology/geology thinking it's a miracle, but there's no excuse for those with access to the internet.

lol. Which tap does it come out from?

You went to Mecca and drank it while pretending to be Muslim. You have no credibility.

 

[Tubs]

lol. Which tap does it come out from?

You went to Mecca and drank it while pretending to be Muslim. You have no credibility.

The well isn't an everlasting well that was spontaneously created like the myth says, that is my point. You can't refute the naturalistic explanation.

Actually, I never claimed to be one, there were no checks. I couldn't declare my atheism for my own safety, but you never mention that, do you? Regardless, I could have lied about being Muslim just to go to Mecca and mess about, that wouldn't make what I said false. But I wouldn't expect an anti-science, low IQ person like yourself to understand that.

 

[KingKhanWC]

The well isn't an everlasting well that was spontaneously created like the myth says, that is my point. You can't refute the naturalistic explanation.

Actually, I never claimed to be one, there were no checks. I couldn't declare my atheism for my own safety, but you never mention that, do you? Regardless, I could have lied about being Muslim just to go to Mecca and mess about, that wouldn't make what I said false. But I wouldn't expect an anti-science, low IQ person like yourself to understand that.

Explain the well in your own words, in detail. I can post many links too.

Your parents would take your life if you told them the truth? You took part in rituals such as praying, stoning the devil, sleeping in tents, circling the Kabba. Where you cursing the faith, your family or both while doing this?

 

[Stewie]

Political move. The conflict between Umayyad and Abbasid transition. You can watch the video yourself.

There was no mention of Muslims or Prophet Muhammed prior to Caliph Abdel Malik. All of the previous Caliphs used coins with Byzantine cross or the Zoroastrian symbols on their coins.

The early history of Islam is pretty murky and unclear. When Arabs conquered Jerusalem, the conquerors were called Huggerines (progeny of Hagar) or Ismaelites (descendents of Ishmael). There was no mention of either Prophet Muhammed or Muslims or Islam according to the Jews and Christians of Jerusalem.

According to Dan Gibson, the first mosque to point towards the modern day Mecca was the Mosque built in Bahawalpur in Pakistan in early 700's. Think it is around 710 AD.

Everything is mentioned in Dan Gibson's documentary. More and more evidence is coming out. Also, the archeology around the present day Mecca yielded nothing. No monuments, no coins, no inscriptions, no pottery nothing was found by Archeologists to even think that there was once a bustling city in Mecca in the early 7th century.

The Muslims were not much for monuments back then and even the graves of historic figures are lost in history for fear of people turning them into shrines. Graves/monuments/other stuff. They tore down all historic landmarks under the saudis as well.

I do not believe there is any heft to these claims and it all reads like a Qanon type conspiracy theory with some pseudo scholars having conducted inconclusive research .. this is exactly like Jewish religious scholars/historians claiming Jesus never existed. There is no historic proof ever of a person named Jesus living in Nazareth, they claim..

 

[Stewie]

Explain the well in your own words, in detail. I can post many links too.

Your parents would take your life if you told them the truth? You took part in rituals such as praying, stoning the devil, sleeping in tents, circling the Kabba. Where you cursing the faith, your family or both while doing this?

That’s ridiculous, Why would they kill someone for that? Kuch khuda ka khauf karo yaar, this is exactly the sort of extremist radical nonsense that’s ruining our reputation.

 

[Tubs]

Explain the well in your own words, in detail. I can post many links too.

Your parents would take your life if you told them the truth? You took part in rituals such as praying, stoning the devil, sleeping in tents, circling the Kabba. Where you cursing the faith, your family or both while doing this?

It's quite simple, it is known that the well gets its water from a valley, which wasn't known at the time. A rather simple naturalistic explanation, which can be verified, rather than the well spontaneously popping up because Ishmail (who's existence can't even be verified) was crying due to thirst. You can post links of uneducated, indoctrinated Muslims saying it's sky magic, but no evidence.

Nope, not take my life, but be disowned, among other things. I was about 15 at the time. Again, you don't say that's wrong, interesting. And I went to Umrah, not Hajj, so I didn't have to do everything which you said. Regardless, I could appreciate it from a historical point of view, but yes, I did think the rituals were pointless. I have no reason to curse what there's no evidence for, however.

 

[Stewie]

It's quite simple, it is known that the well gets its water from a valley, which wasn't known at the time. A rather simple naturalistic explanation, which can be verified, rather than the well spontaneously popping up because Ishmail (who's existence can't even be verified) was crying due to thirst. You can post links of uneducated, indoctrinated Muslims saying it's sky magic, but no evidence.

Nope, not take my life, but be disowned, among other things. I was about 15 at the time. Again, you don't say that's wrong, interesting. And I went to Umrah, not Hajj, so I didn't have to do everything which you said. Regardless, I could appreciate it from a historical point of view, but yes, I did think the rituals were pointless. I have no reason to curse what there's no evidence for, however.

There is no evidence of anything Biblical figures or Jewish or Hindu or whatever. So does that mean Adam and Eve are made up stories?

You sound like you want to drag the conversation to that area... iss terha to phir kissi bhi religion based personalities ka evidence nahi hai.

Either you are an atheist, in which case I would say this conversation is not appropriate or you are a history buff and want to tackle this conversation from a historical perspective. Decide which one are you.

For the latter, I would just say there is more evidence for the traditional narrative of Islamic history than you are being led to believe here.

 

[KingKhanWC]

It's quite simple, it is known that the well gets its water from a valley, which wasn't known at the time. A rather simple naturalistic explanation, which can be verified, rather than the well spontaneously popping up because Ishmail (who's existence can't even be verified) was crying due to thirst. You can post links of uneducated, indoctrinated Muslims saying it's sky magic, but no evidence.

Nope, not take my life, but be disowned, among other things. I was about 15 at the time. Again, you don't say that's wrong, interesting. And I went to Umrah, not Hajj, so I didn't have to do everything which you said. Regardless, I could appreciate it from a historical point of view, but yes, I did think the rituals were pointless. I have no reason to curse what there's no evidence for, however.

Muslims in general are much smarter than athiests and almost all the time smarter than Ex-Muslims. Give a timeline of how the well came into existance, how much water it gives and how this has changed over time.

Umrah also has many rituals. Aww you was a kids so thats ok breaking criminal laws and lying to family. At 15 most males have reached adulthood. Perhaps you can come clean with them now but you're still telling them fibs. Could you blame them for disowning someone who breaks laws and spends day after day abusing their faith? Im sure there are other issues you have which are being held back on here.

 

[Tubs]

There is no evidence of anything Biblical figures or Jewish or Hindu or whatever. So does that mean Adam and Eve are made up stories?

You sound like you want to drag the conversation to that area... iss terha to phir kissi bhi religion based personalities ka evidence nahi hai.

Either you are an atheist, in which case I would say this conversation is not appropriate or you are a history buff and want to tackle this conversation from a historical perspective. Decide which one are you.

For the latter, I would just say there is more evidence for the traditional narrative of Islamic history than you are being led to believe here.

I was responding to KKWC's claim that the zam zam well is a miracle, which it isn't.

And sure, there is a lot of evidence of Islamic history, I never disputed that, but there isn't evidence for anything supernatural. Also if you bring up Adam and Eve, you'll need evidence of them. They contradict scientific understanding, so you need some amazing evidence to justify their existence.

 

[KingKhanWC]

That’s ridiculous, Why would they kill someone for that? Kuch khuda ka khauf karo yaar, this is exactly the sort of extremist radical nonsense that’s ruining our reputation.

Poster mentioned his life would have been at risk. Im just wondering who from. I disagree with him, nobody was going to kill him. Please read the discussion bro.

 

[Tubs]

Muslims in general are much smarter than athiests and almost all the time smarter than Ex-Muslims. Give a timeline of how the well came into existance, how much water it gives and how this has changed over time.

Umrah also has many rituals. Aww you was a kids so thats ok breaking criminal laws and lying to family. At 15 most males have reached adulthood. Perhaps you can come clean with them now but you're still telling them fibs. Could you blame them for disowning someone who breaks laws and spends day after day abusing their faith? Im sure there are other issues you have which are being held back on here.

Well, here's a defeater to that argument. I am smarter than you, very much so. Such a childish point, not sure what you wanted to get from that. How the well came into existence? I have no clue. But I do know it gets its water source from a valley, that's all you need to know, really. There is no evidence that it formed spontaneously, you need to prove that as it's what your belief said.

Yes, it does. But not all of the ones you mentioned. Hahaha, you're blaming a kid for hiding their apostasy because they might get kicked out because they're 15. At 15 you can't get a job other than a paper round, how would I have afforded a place to stay? You truly are braindead. Sure, I could come clean now but there's no reason at the moment, might as well save them the heartache until it's really necessary. And I wouldn't disown my kid for disagreeing with my beliefs, the fact that you think it's justified says a lot about you. And as I said before, numerous non-Muslims visit Mecca and Madinah every year. Get used to it. The Saudis don't mind, they're getting more money.

I'm not sure what you mean by other issues being held back. I'm a pretty good son, always secretly pay for things so my parents won't have to without letting them know, pay into their mortgage without them knowing, all while having a measly PhD salary and paying rent for a place I haven't moved into yet due to lockdown. I just don't believe in the supernatural, which apparently makes me a bad person.

 

[PetroDollars]

Patricia Crone??? Lol

Tom Holland made a bit of money off the back of her work, and that's it.

She doesn't present anything that is accepted by anyone and her whole approach to this type of academia was a failure and never accepted.

Her work can all be summised as alternate universe and what if fan fiction.

She has been proved to be fraud.

https://www.muslim-library.com/dl/books/English_A_Response_to_Patricia_Crones_Book_Meccan_Trade.pdf

Its an interesting 'what-if' scenario but Crone's works has been rejected by even non-Muslim scholars as well.

Heck she herself has criticized her own works.

Which neutral unbiased sources are there against patricia crone? The one posted by kingkhan is just a case of confirmation bias of a frustrated mullah.

If patricia Crone is a fruad how does one end up as a professor in oxford, cambridge, SOAS and princeton,

That is 3 of the worlds leading educational institutes and the leading institute in middle east studies

 

[Stewie]

I was responding to KKWC's claim that the zam zam well is a miracle, which it isn't.

And sure, there is a lot of evidence of Islamic history, I never disputed that, but there isn't evidence for anything supernatural. Also if you bring up Adam and Eve, you'll need evidence of them. They contradict scientific understanding, so you need some amazing evidence to justify their existence.

Maybe I misread your comment in context of this topic. I was trying to address it from the angle.

I think this is just a conspiracy theory at best. You cannot find concrete evidence for a lot of religious movements in history. Islam is probably the more well documented one considering its age.

 

[guna]

The Muslims were not much for monuments back then and even the graves of historic figures are lost in history for fear of people turning them into shrines. Graves/monuments/other stuff. They tore down all historic landmarks under the saudis as well.

I do not believe there is any heft to these claims and it all reads like a Qanon type conspiracy theory with some pseudo scholars having conducted inconclusive research .. this is exactly like Jewish religious scholars/historians claiming Jesus never existed. There is no historic proof ever of a person named Jesus living in Nazareth, they claim..

Rock inscriptions were a major part of Nabatean culture. You can see Shahada on rocks all around Arabia after 8th century. Even if they tore down any buildings, there will still be evidence of bustling city in the ruins of Mecca even today. If you watch the documentary, it tells you that the Hijaj area was uninhabited before 7th century. I believe Abbasid Caliphs chose that location to build up their new story. Nobody knows anything about that place. So whatever the Caliphs and his religious advisors tells has to be accepted by people.

I do not believe it is a conspiracy theory. It is Archeology. Evidence does not lie.

This is not about the existence of Prophet Muhammed. It is about where Islam started. With time, more evidence will come out.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Which neutral unbiased sources are there against patricia crone? The one posted by kingkhan is just a case of confirmation bias of a frustrated mullah.

If patricia Crone is a fruad how does one end up as a professor in oxford, cambridge, SOAS and princeton,

That is 3 of the worlds leading educational institutes and the leading institute in middle east studies

There are many others who have been to Oxford or prestigious acadmies who laugh at this fraud of a woman.

Try reading the link I have posted, it simple and clear Crone is very wrong.

Are you an athiest or Hindu btw?

 

[GenericBrand]

Which neutral unbiased sources are there against patricia crone? The one posted by kingkhan is just a case of confirmation bias of a frustrated mullah.

If patricia Crone is a fruad how does one end up as a professor in oxford, cambridge, SOAS and princeton,

That is 3 of the worlds leading educational institutes and the leading institute in middle east studies

A quick wiki search would show the unanimous rejection of her thesis through her first book 'Hagarism'. Wouldn't call her a fraud, I don't know her credentials but that doesn't mean she can't be wrong or mistaken.

None of her critics were some mullah.

 

[PetroDollars]

There are many others who have been to Oxford or prestigious acadmies who laugh at this fraud of a woman.

Try reading the link I have posted, it simple and clear Crone is very wrong.

Are you an athiest or Hindu btw?

Can we have some names?
credible sources against her works

I dont need to read a link from an unknown person who has no credibility.

Im not an atheist/hindu you should know that

 

[PetroDollars]

A quick wiki search would show the unanimous rejection of her thesis through her first book 'Hagarism'. Wouldn't call her a fraud, I don't know her credentials but that doesn't mean she can't be wrong or mistaken.

None of her critics were some mullah.

Like above, i would like to know who these non muslims were, are there any names?

I understand even highly intelligent people can be wrong but calling someone who has been to 4 of the worlds leading education insititues as a fruad is just you showing your frustration and confirmation bias that your not ready accept what eve she says no matter how strong the proof is.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Can we have some names?
credible sources against her works

I dont need to read a link from an unknown person who has no credibility.

Im not an atheist/hindu you should know that

All I know is you support Utd, you cant surely be a Muslim if you believe this nonsense?

You know Crone personally? Its not who wrote the response, it's the response itself. Pick one refutation and prove it's not correct. Just one for now.

 

[GenericBrand]

Like above, i would like to know who these non muslims were, are there any names?

I understand even highly intelligent people can be wrong but calling someone who has been to 4 of the worlds leading education insititues as a fruad is just you showing your frustration and confirmation bias that your not ready accept what eve she says no matter how strong the proof is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagarism

Just scroll to the bottom.

You're barking up the wrong tree I never called her a fraud. Like I said it was an interesting theory that has been discussed before, but also doesn't have much weight.

 

[guna]

She has been proved to be fraud.

https://www.muslim-library.com/dl/books/English_A_Response_to_Patricia_Crones_Book_Meccan_Trade.pdf

Any neutral sources? This guy - Dr. Amaal Muhammad Al-Roubi is a Saudi history professor. Obviously paid by Saudi king to hold on to the existing narrative. He would be killed immediately if he agrees with Patricia Crone.

 

[PetroDollars]

All I know is you support Utd, you cant surely be a Muslim if you believe this nonsense?

You know Crone personally? Its not who wrote the response, it's the response itself. Pick one refutation and prove it's not correct. Just one for now.

I never said i believed her, i clearly said its not conclusive. However no one has given any intelligent attemots at refutting her.

calling her a fruad is just as ridiculus as LPs history in the EPL has been. Shes a highly inteligent and credible researcher,

You said people from Oxford have refuted her, so tell me who they were? here i quote you

There are many others who have been to Oxford or prestigious acadmies who laugh at this fraud of a woman.

 

[guna]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagarism

Just scroll to the bottom.

You're barking up the wrong tree I never called her a fraud. Like I said it was an interesting theory that has been discussed before, but also doesn't have much weight.

I read about Patricia Crone, but evidence of early Mosques between 630-700 AD all pointed towards Petra. Then the direction of Mosques started pointed towards present day Mecca in later Mosques.

 

[PetroDollars]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagarism

Just scroll to the bottom.

You're barking up the wrong tree I never called her a fraud. Like I said it was an interesting theory that has been discussed before, but also doesn't have much weight.

I was talking to KIngkhan who called her a fruad.

Those critics hardly give a througha analysis. They just say the same thing which patrica says herself, its not conclusive,

 

[KingKhanWC]

I never said i believed her, i clearly said its not conclusive. However no one has given any intelligent attemots at refutting her.

calling her a fruad is just as ridiculus as LPs history in the EPL has been. Shes a highly inteligent and credible researcher,

You said people from Oxford have refuted her, so tell me who they were? here i quote you

I said many others who have stuied at the same level or higher. She is highly educated but not highly intelligent, a fool actually to make these absurd claims. Lets leave who she is to one side, youve clearly read a large amount of her info to support her views. You are here and so am I.

Ill challenge you to a one to one debate on this. Please go ahead with your first argument and I will respond.

So you're a Muslim who believes this? What then do you make of the Quranic verse which clearly mentions Mecca?

 

[KingKhanWC]

Any neutral sources? This guy - Dr. Amaal Muhammad Al-Roubi is a Saudi history professor. Obviously paid by Saudi king to hold on to the existing narrative. He would be killed immediately if he agrees with Patricia Crone.

Ive already refuted your absurd claim. You mentioned hadiths but I went one better and showed you the Quran verse which mentions Mecca.

We dont need them, lets have a debate. What is your first and main argument on this topic? Use your own words.

I find it funny athiests and hindus thinking they know better than Muslims.

 

[PetroDollars]

I said many others who have stuied at the same level or higher. She is highly educated but not highly intelligent, a fool actually to make these absurd claims. Lets leave who she is to one side, youve clearly read a large amount of her info to support her views. You are here and so am I.

Ill challenge you to a one to one debate on this. Please go ahead with your first argument and I will respond.

So you're a Muslim who believes this? What then do you make of the Quranic verse which clearly mentions Mecca?

I already told you above i never said i belived it, all im telling you is her research has not been refutted, simple as that.

You said she was refutted by oxford scholars, so lets start with there names?

 

[KingKhanWC]

I already told you above i never said i belived it, all im telling you is her research has not been refutted, simple as that.

You said she was refutted by oxford scholars, so lets start with there names?

You miss the point. Any Muslim with any sort of intelligence can refute this woman. Go to Oxford speak to any Muslim studying theology.

Get on with it please. Name one point which hasnt been refuted?

 

[GenericBrand]

I read about Patricia Crone, but evidence of early Mosques between 630-700 AD all pointed towards Petra. Then the direction of Mosques started pointed towards present day Mecca in later Mosques.

David King has written an article on this, more so towards Dan Gibson's book in the early 90s on this same topic.

 

[guna]

David King has written an article on this, more so towards Dan Gibson's book in the early 90s on this same topic.

David King has never visited any Early Mosques in his life. He just accepted whatever the traditional narrative is. When Dan Gibson showed the evidence, King threw a hissy fit. Instead of providing counter evidence, King simply made allegations against Gibson and questioned his credentials.

 

[GenericBrand]

I was talking to KIngkhan who called her a fruad.

Those critics hardly give a througha analysis. They just say the same thing which patrica says herself, its not conclusive,

I don't understand, what is there to refute if the evidence and research itself isn't sound. In the end her thesis was not widely accepted.

 

[guna]

You miss the point. Any Muslim with any sort of intelligence can refute this woman. Go to Oxford speak to any Muslim studying theology.

Get on with it please. Name one point which hasnt been refuted?

Why only Muslim Students studying Theology? To get biased answers?

The question is, why would all Mosques prior to 700 AD point to Petra?

 

[PetroDollars]

You miss the point. Any Muslim with any sort of intelligence can refute this woman. Go to Oxford speak to any Muslim studying theology.

Get on with it please. Name one point which hasnt been refuted?

Thats not how things are proved in the real world, you need scholarly works for that and Your are just speculating on muslims in Oxford against her, whats the source?

My point was she is not a fraud no matter what you say.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Thats not how things are proved in the real world, you need scholarly works for that and Your are just speculating on muslims in Oxford against her, whats the source?

My point was she is not a fraud no matter what you say.

Ive posted one link, you rubbished it. Lets move on.

You are more than capable of debating unlike 'guna' who has already embarrased himeself on this.

Please name her strongest point in regards to this topic. Just one for now.

 

[Tubs]

Maybe I misread your comment in context of this topic. I was trying to address it from the angle.

I think this is just a conspiracy theory at best. You cannot find concrete evidence for a lot of religious movements in history. Islam is probably the more well documented one considering its age.

Agree with the bold statement, but none of the so called miracles can be substantiated. Many of the battles, for example, are well documented, yes.

What is a conspiracy theory? Me saying there is no evidence for Adam and Eve? Because there isn't, at least not in the Abrahamic sense. Perhaps you could make an argument for the 'Adam and Eve' of hominids, but that is very difficult to pinpoint.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Why only Muslim Students studying Theology? To get biased answers?

The question is, why would all Mosques prior to 700 AD point to Petra?

All Muslims were praying to towards Jerusalem. It was only until after the Kabba was cleansed of idols and Muslims took control, they then started to pray towards Mecca. These are the facts.

 

[guna]

All Muslims were praying to towards Jerusalem. It was only until after the Kabba was cleansed of idols and Muslims took control, they then started to pray towards Mecca. These are the facts.

Those are not facts. That is the traditional narrative which you are saying again. All of this traditional narrative came 200 years after Prophet's death.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Those are not facts. That is the traditional narrative which you are saying again. All of this traditional narrative came 200 years after Prophet's death.

The Glorious Quran was written down at the time of the Prophet(pbuh). It clearly mentions Mecca. So you're very wrong here.

Next?

 

[Stewie]

Agree with the bold statement, but none of the so called miracles can be substantiated. Many of the battles, for example, are well documented, yes.

What is a conspiracy theory? Me saying there is no evidence for Adam and Eve? Because there isn't, at least not in the Abrahamic sense. Perhaps you could make an argument for the 'Adam and Eve' of hominids, but that is very difficult to pinpoint.

“A miracle being substantiated” itself is a fallacy. If a miracle can be substantiated or logically explained, then it is no longer a miracle.

I am referring to the topic of this thread as the conspiracy theory (not any of the counter religious arguments, because well that’s a topic of another discussion and not this one)

We are focusing on whether this notion or theory of Islam’s history being questionable is accurate or within reason or not. Not anything else.
So to the main topic at hand, my thoughts are it’s a conspiracy theory. There is not much to it. Our history with the Holy Prophet, his migration, his struggles, the four rightly guided caliphs, and the struggles of his grandchildren at Kerbala etc, are all well documented and it’s absurd to suggest somehow this was all made up after Caliph Abdul Malik amongst other things.

 

[Stewie]

The Glorious Quran was written down at the time of the Prophet(pbuh). It clearly mentions Mecca. So you're very wrong here.

Next?

Perhaps this will help if you doubt it:

https://www.quora.com/Why-was-Mecca...portant-town?ch=10&share=895cad9a&srid=urICVs

 

[guna]

The Glorious Quran was written down at the time of the Prophet(pbuh). It clearly mentions Mecca. So you're very wrong here.

Next?

Quran mentions Bakkah. You can give the same name to a new place. Not too difficult if you are a Caliph.

Hijaj Makka does not make sense due to the fact that it does not fit the description in Hadees. There are no Olive trees growing in Hijaj area.

 

[Tubs]

“A miracle being substantiated” itself is a fallacy. If a miracle can be substantiated or logically explained, then it is no longer a miracle.

I am referring to the topic of this thread as the conspiracy theory (not any of the counter religious arguments, because well that’s a topic of another discussion and not this one)

We are focusing on whether this notion or theory of Islam’s history being questionable is accurate or within reason or not. Not anything else.
So to the main topic at hand, my thoughts are it’s a conspiracy theory. There is not much to it. Our history with the Holy Prophet, his migration, his struggles, the four rightly guided caliphs, and the struggles of his grandchildren at Kerbala etc, are all well documented and it’s absurd to suggest somehow this was all made up after Caliph Abdul Malik amongst other things.

So miracles are unfalsifiable? Then they can be discarded.

Saying that myths are erroneous isn't suggesting that the whole history of a religion is a conspiracy. We have good documentation of the caliphs, and many of the Islamic conquests, etc, but that speaks nothing to the historicity of the early prophets, for example. Also, while I think his historicity is unquestionable, the accuracy of many of the actions of Muhammad aren't well known.

 

[Stewie]

Quran mentions Bakkah. You can give the same name to a new place. Not too difficult if you are a Caliph.

Hijaj Makka does not make sense due to the fact that it does not fit the description in Hadees. There are no Olive trees growing in Hijaj area.

That right there is conspiracy theory premise, my friend. It’s well documented in history that Makkah’s ancient name was Bakkah. Which hadith do you refer to? Can you cite it?

 

[KingKhanWC]

Quran mentions Bakkah. You can give the same name to a new place. Not too difficult if you are a Caliph.

Hijaj Makka does not make sense due to the fact that it does not fit the description in Hadees. There are no Olive trees growing in Hijaj area.

All translations say Mecca.

David King has written a great article refuting the Petra claim. From Petra back to Makka. Some Muslims used astronomy or other similar knowledges for their mosques to point to Mecca, their aim was Mecca not Petra, this is the key. People can interpret these mosques facing Mecca, Petra or other towns. Some of these are directly facing towards Mecca. Read his article, you may learn something.

 

[Stewie]

So miracles are unfalsifiable? Then they can be discarded.

Saying that myths are erroneous isn't suggesting that the whole history of a religion is a conspiracy. We have good documentation of the caliphs, and many of the Islamic conquests, etc, but that speaks nothing to the historicity of the early prophets, for example. Also, while I think his historicity is unquestionable, the accuracy of many of the actions of Muhammad aren't well known.

Look I understand you point. But I feel that direction is completely tangent to the topic at hand. You want to get into the science and logic of things vs religion and I am not one to tell you whether you are right or wrong. You are entitled to your opinion.

I fail to see how that is related to this discussion.. you want to discuss the historical accuracy of any of the Holy Prophet’s miracles (by the way I can’t seem to recall too many), I suggest you open a different thread.