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Osama Bin Laden is DEAD

In International politics, most countries will look at their self-interests and in doing so, would not mind transgressing justice/fair values.

We have to ask ourselves some of the questions, that even after so many decades, why a big chunk of our population is not able to afford quality education that can sustain them with honourable jobs? why we are not able to provide sufficient employment opportunities? why are we lagging in scientific advancements (has any of us won Nobel prize in physics/chemistry/medicine)? why are we relying on foreign powers for our defence requirements? why our best talent is going abroad? why most of our people would rather settle for greener pastures abroad but not at home? why our supposedly premier educational institutes not able to come up with worthwhile discoveries like MIT, Cambridge or Stanford?

People of sub-continent, need to look at themselves and come with solutions, just blaming other nations(in some cases which rightly have to) itself, would not serve any solution.

I have raised this earlier and would again now:

1. How Japan, Germany rose to the top after being in ruins after the second world war?

They must have done something right, which is strengthening their educational systems, infrastructure, judicial systems and general governance. The development in these nations did not happen with a magic wand but through people's co-operation.

Just take a look at some of the pictures and reports on how people of Japan coped with tsunami and earthquake disasters which struck recently. There would have been full scale pandemonium at our places, if that occurred. They maintained queues while making calls during that situation, wherein we cannot maintain a simple queue while stepping into a bus at happier and normal times. These skills have to be acquired, which would be inculcated if we have proper education and upbringing.

Only through proper education of the masses, strict implementation of constitutional laws for prohibiting corruption, democracy, transparency in administration, eliminating radical/militant/extremist elements from the society, we can dream of achieving inclusive social justice, otherwise ONLY few people at the top will be served and majority will be crushed under the burden of difficulties.

We need to come out of our shells and stop blaming outside forces for our misery. Just blaming will not serve any purpose but us doing the action.

Not sure, but still hope, I would live to see, sub-continent nations regarded as developed and advanced countries and no longer mentioned as third-world countries, who rely on foreign aid for survival.

Thanks.
Excellent post.

It is often mentioned what the root causes of society's' ills are,people prefer to blame outside forces.But it is illiteracy and lawlessness that has caused great damage to Pakistan.

64 years and we still have not begun nation building.

Instead of strengthening our weaponry and military equipment,we should be seeking to strengthen our own institutions and invest in a education system where people learn morals and ethics,and to differentiate right from wrong from an early age.

Pakistan spends a meagre percentage of GDP on education.

And we ask what is wrong with our society. The intelligentsia in Pakistan are largely ignored or ostracised,a society of guns and influence has long replaced a society of education.
 
I read somewhere that Pakistan believed that it was an accomplice of Umar Patek related to the Bali Bombing of 2002,not Osama Bin Laden.So they gave the go-ahead.

That could be plausible but that is not what either side has presented as a story...

We are supposed to believe Pakistan didnt know anything...
 
Lols at indians who found american gov't truthful and credible...

Obama admin has already rather embarrassignly changed the story twice...

No.1 - "Bin Laden, according to a briefing on Monday, used his wife as a human shield and she was killed. By Tuesday, the White House reversed that: she had not been used as a human shield and she was not dead."

No.2 - "The other point of discrepancy was the initial briefings that stated Bin Laden resisted and was killed in a "firefight", which suggests he had been armed. The White House insisted he had resisted, without saying how, but said he had no gun."



http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...nts?intcmp=239
 
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/0...-laden-compund-in-custody-being-interrogated/

[Updated at 1:27 p.m. ET] President Barack Obama does not plan to release photos of Osama bin Laden to prove his death, CBS News said on Twitter on Wednesday. Obama made the comment to "60 Minutes," the network said.

The plot has....thickened.

I can believe not wanting to inflame public opinion and what not, but I think with all the mystery surrounding the issue it would probably do more good then bad. People got over seeing Saddam's head pop off, they can get over this... surely?
 
Conspiracy nutters will always cry foul. He is dead no point in US claiming he is if he is still walking around.
There is no plot. We as people love to believe the conspiracy bull because I guess it absolves us of all blame.
 
Conspiracy nutters will always cry foul. He is dead no point in US claiming he is if he is still walking around.
There is no plot. We as people love to believe the conspiracy bull because I guess it absolves us of all blame.

The question is not whether he is dead or alive...the real problem for Obama is that OBL wasn't armed, in fact didn't have any weapons around, and according his daughter, they killed him after capturing him alive...
 
www.counterpunch.com


Cross and Double Cross With Gitmo Files
US Knew Where Osama Was Since 2005

By ISRAEL SHAMIR

The unredacted Guantanamo files show clearly that the trail to Abbottabad was known to the US intelligence services at least since 2005, when al-Libi, another Abbottabad dweller, was captured.
Timing is everything. The US President announced killing of Osama bin Laden just as Wikileaks completed its publication of Guantanamo files. Was it coincidence? If not, what was the connection?

An answer to this question is directly connected with the cross and double cross accusations exchanged in the murky world where the intelligence services meet mainstream media.

Publication of the US secret papers, the Guantanamo Files, was done almost simultaneously by two competing media groups.

One was the Wikileaks of Julian Assange and their partners The Washington Post, The Daily Telegraph, the French Le Monde.


Another one was The New York Times, The Guardian, the Israeli Haaretz.
The Guardian said of the files: “They were obtained by the New York Times, who shared them with the Guardian, which is publishing extracts today, having redacted information which might identify informants. The New York Times says the files were made available to it not by Wikileaks, but "by another source on the condition of anonymity".

Ha'aretz made more of it: “A few media outlets, including The New York Times, the Guardian and Haaretz, obtained the documents from an independent source without the help of WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange, who is under house arrest in Britain awaiting his appeal not to be extradited to Sweden, where he faces charges of rape and sexual assault.” The Guardian’s David Leigh twitted “double-crossing Assange!”

Now we’ll give you the story behind the story: who crossed and double crossed whom, which information was redacted and how did it lead to OBL?

In the beginning, the source was one; allegedly Private First Class Manning or whoever it was who got it and transferred to the Wikileaks of Julian Assange. The entire file is still far from being published – a big part of it was encrypted and uploaded as Julian Assange’s Insurance file. Assange published two tranches of that: the War Diary: Afghanistan War Logs and War Diary: Iraq War Logs. He prepared publication of the third tranche: a huge collection of the State Department cables (Cablegate: 250,000 US Embassy Diplomatic Cables) in the Guardian.

At that point, the data river forked. The treasure trove was copied by a Wikileaks German employee,Daniel Domscheit-Berg, who went AWOL after this profitable appropriation. Domscheit-Bergmade a deal with David Leigh of the Guardian; Leigh used it to cross Assange. He cold-shouldered Assange, declared the deal ‘void’, and used the data to promote his career and to make friends with Bill Keller, editor of the NY Times They published the cables after redacting them, or should we say “censoring” – removeing everything the secret services demanded to remove. We wrote about it at length here in CounterPunch.

Julian Assange succeeded in regaining some lost ground: he established new partnerships, with the Daily Telegraph and others. The cables were being published all the time. And then Assange learned that the Guardian and the New York Times planned to publish the Guantanamo files. There was no time to lose: in a few days, the Wikileaks team prepared the files and began to upload. So did the competitors, possessing the Domscheit-Berg appropriated copy. This was the double-cross per Leigh.

The Guardian and the New York Times have a big and skilful staff, a lot of research, rich archives. But they decided to play ball with the secret services of their countries, redacting information which might identify informants. What a hutzpah! Sometimes, the identity of “informants” is more important than the information.

For instance in the file of Adil Hadi al Jaz’iri Leigh and Keller removed the name of the informant



To their misfortune and to our advantage, at this time the Wikileaks and the Guardian/NY Times were not a loving couple but two competing enterprises. And the Wikileaks published this file in full, warts and all.
Here is the name in full:



Abu Zubaydah the informer was the subject of intensive research, available here that makes clear: this unfortunate man was tortured by the CIA, with permission of US medics and Bush administration, to the point of the total collapse of his personality. He was one of the High Value Detainees; all of them suffered tortures beyond our ability to comprehend. Information they provided was not only unacceptable in court, it was of nil value because they said everything their tormentors wanted in order to gain a moment of peace.

Andy Worthington wrote: Since then, more and more compelling evidence has emerged to demonstrate that Abu Zubaydah was indeed nothing more than a “safehouse keeper” with mental health problems, who “claimed to know more about al-Qaeda and its inner workings than he really did”… “The United States would torture a mentally disturbed man and then leap, screaming, at every word he uttered.” Further confirmation was also provided that his torture yielded no significant information and led only to vast amounts of the intelligence agencies’ time being wasted on false leads. A year ago, summing up the results of Zubaydah’s torture, a former intelligence official stated, bluntly, “We spent millions of dollars chasing false alarms.”

Removal of his name by the Leigh-Keller gang was not “caring about informers”, it was caring about the torturers.

However the most important redactions by Leigh and Keller were directly dictated by the US intelligence services. The name of Nashwan Abd Al Razzaq Abd Al Baqi, or by another name, Abd al Hadi al Iraqi or by his number IZ-10026 was edited away from the file of Abu al-Libi (US9LY-010017DP) and elsewhere. This file is available in a redacted version of the Guardian and in the uncut version of Wikileaks. Comparison shows to what extent all the traces of al Iraqi were removed. It was not connected to “caring about informers”, for al Libi was dead, having allegedly committed suicide in a Libyan jail just before the arrival of the US Ambassador in Tripoli. The file of al Iraqi is missing in all databases; he was captured in 2005 and kept in various secret prisons, until transferred to Guantanamo where he is detained now.Careful reading of the file shows that al-Libi was connected with al Iraqi since October 2002. In 2003, OBL stated al Libi would be the official messenger between OBL and others in Pakistan. In mid-2003, al Libi moved his family to Abbottabad, Pakistan and worked between Abbottabad and Peshawar. He maintained contact with al Iraqi.

And we know that OBL was found and killed in Abbottabad – just as this publication hit the pages of the newspapers. So the trail to Abbottabad was known to the American services at least since 2005, when al-Libi, another Abbottabad dweller, was captured.

What we do not know is the nature of the contacts between the US authorities and OBL. What we do know is that David Leigh and Bill Keller tried to hid it from their readers. Their redacting of the Guantanamo files, like their redacting of the Cablegate, had nothing to do with “saving informers”.

David Leigh claimed that Assange "double-crossed" the paper by distributing the Gitmo files to various "right-wing" news organisations, meaning the conservative Daily Telegraph. This is rich. “Left” and “right” has very little meaning nowadays, after Blair and Clinton. What is important is the position on wars and overseas interventions, susceptibility to Secret Service meddling, subservience to the priorities of the state.

In France, right-wing Marina Le Pen stands against foreign interventions in Libya and Cote d’Ivoire, against payments to bankers, against the President, while left-wing Henri Bernard Levi supports wars and interventions, loves bankers, is a friend of the President “right-wing” Sarkozy.

In England, the Guardian is the leading newspaper for calls to war. Libya, Syria – the Guardian wants them bombed. Afghanistan, Serbia, Iraq, - the Guardian wanted them to be invaded. It is just the package is different: instead of right-wing jingoism, the Guardian served the neo-colonialist adventurism under delicate sauce of humanitarian intervention. The Guardian leads on hypocrisy. The Guardian is not the newspaper of the left; it is the problem of the left. The case of Guantanamo files proves that the Guardian redacted the most vital information as told by the CIA.

And Osama? What about Osama bin Laden? Now we know that the US knew of his whereabouts; they knew of the trail, they asked Leigh and Keller to remove relevant references. Why didn’t they capture him or kill him earlier?

OBL’s organisation did what the US authorities wanted to be done. They fought the Russians and ruined Afghanistan. They conspired and fought against Hezbollah, slaughtered Shias in Iraq, undermined Qaddafi, hated Hamas and Iran. They supported ethnic cleansing of ‘infidels’ in Chechnya and in the Balkans. They never ever attacked Israel: they preserved their vigor for Sayyed Nasrallah. Like a dreadful beast nurtured in the CIA secret labs, only once they reportedly rebelled against their merciless creator - on 9/11. Osama was greater than, but similar to such American friends as Jonas Savimbi of Angola or Shamil Basayev of Chechnya, and hopefully after his death his organization will vanish like Unita and Basayev did.

The Guantanamo files reveal utter wretchedness of Osama’s unlucky followers. With exception of a few dozen close associates, the rest of the prisoners made a wrong choice ever listening to him. They (especially foreigners) were idealists, who wanted to establish the Kingdom of God upon the earth; they were encouraged by the US to flock to Afghanistan to fight the Commies. The majority of them never even had a chance to hold the gun. They, the foreigners in Afghanistan and Pakistan were sold for bounty to the Americans as fast as possible. They paid for this by years of torture. And now they are about to learn that their supreme chief was safeguarded by the same Americans who tortured them!

But in the mind of the Muslim masses OBL will be remembered (justly or not) as the architect of the only successful response of the oppressed to the Empire on its own soil. And that ensured him greatness of his own and a place in history.

Israel Shamir can be reached at adam@israelshamir.net

World copyright CounterPunch
 
It says a lot about society when we stop questioning extra-judicial killings. Americans have the death penalty and who knows what kind of intelligence they could've received from Bin Laden? If he is the mastermind they claim him to be couldn't he have known about future attacks and the whereabouts of other wanted men such as Mullah Omar and Zawarihi?

The 'nutters' aren't focusing on the fact that he may be alive but I don't think it's wrong for anyone to question the inconsistencies and numerous changes that have occurred in the official story. Within the first hour of the news CNN claimed an ISI official was present during the operation itself.
 
The question is not whether he is dead or alive...the real problem for Obama is that OBL wasn't armed, in fact didn't have any weapons around, and according his daughter, they killed him after capturing him alive...

If you actually read the news you will realize that they have maintained from the beginning that the plan was to kill. They never intended to capture him that's what they have said.
Secondly do you think the news that's coming to you is beamed directly into your head from the aliens or the source of the news is the same US apparatus that is in the know ? You think these guys are idiots and will change their story so the key board warriors online can cry conspiracy ? You think if they didn't want this to become news you would have even heard about it ?
You think that if there was this massive conspiracy they would leave everyone in the house alive so they can tell the world the "real" story.
 
It says a lot about society when we stop questioning extra-judicial killings. Americans have the death penalty and who knows what kind of intelligence they could've received from Bin Laden? If he is the mastermind they claim him to be couldn't he have known about future attacks and the whereabouts of other wanted men such as Mullah Omar and Zawarihi?

The 'nutters' aren't focusing on the fact that he may be alive but I don't think it's wrong for anyone to question the inconsistencies and numerous changes that have occurred in the official story. Within the first hour of the news CNN claimed an ISI official was present during the operation itself.

Oh bahi use common sense. This wasn't an orderly shopping trip to the mall. This is an operation launched to kill a man in a foreign land. Only limited amount of people actually know exactly what happened. Rest of them know bits and come on T.V to enjoy their 15 minutes of fame. There is no one major event in the world where there is a consensus on every single thing that happened.

This whole hoopla of him being dead and not dead and how is not important. because it will always be open to interpretation and hearsay and bullsh*t. The question is why ? How was this guy in Abbotabad, Pakistan. What the hell was ISI doing ? Why did we let so many of our people die and couldnt even stop him from living on our land, in a house that an avg pakistani cant even afford ?
 
So Obama has decided not to release photos of Bin Laden's body.

Makes you wonder.
 
So Obama has decided not to release photos of Bin Laden's body.

Makes you wonder.

Why does not the Obama administration give the world something, they are actually encouraging conspiracy theories. Burial at sea, refusal to release photos or any evidence, which is completely opposite in what they did for Saddam and his sons.

Let the stories start coming through like, this is USA's exit strategy from Afghanistan or they thought they had OBL but got the wrong man, so now refuse to accept it.

Seriously release something and end it
 
After Saddam's execution we were told no footage existed, then a mobile video was leaked,who's to say it won't happen this time ?
 
all major pakistani newspapers confirm what US is saying anyway: from Jang:

ISI officer breaks the ice on OBL saga

SLAMABAD: An officer of Pakistan’s intelligence agency has said that the presence of Osama bin Laden (OBL) in a compound in Abbottabad and ISI’s lack of knowledge on this is embarrassing, Geo News reported.

Talking to media men here, an ISI official said a 12-year daughter of OBL is under custody of Pakistani government. She saw US troops shoot her father to death, he said.

He said there were 17 or 18 people present in compound at the time of US raid.

He said, “But that a US chopper crashed amid operation, so US marine commandos would have taken all people back to America.”

Pakistan's main intelligence agency, the ISI, has said it is embarrassed by its failures on al-Qaeda leader Osama Bin Laden.

An ISI official told the BBC the compound in Abbottabad where Bin Laden was killed by US forces on Sunday had been raided several years ago.

But the compound "was not on our radar" since then, the official said.

The government of Pakistan has categorically denied any knowledge of the raid before it took place.

No base within Pakistan was used by US forces, the ministry of foreign affairs said in a statement.

It went on: "US helicopters entered Pakistani airspace making use of blind spots in the radar coverage due to hilly terrain."

However, the ministry defended the ISI, saying: "As far as the target compound is concerned, ISI had been sharing information with CIA and other friendly intelligence agencies since 2009."

The ISI official gave new details of the raid, saying Bin Laden's young daughter had said she saw her father shot.

He told the BBC's Owen Bennett-Jones in Islamabad that the compound in Abbottabad, just 100km (62 miles) from the capital, was raided when under construction in 2003.

It was believed an al-Qaeda operative, Abu Faraj al-Libi, was there.

But since then, "the compound was not on our radar, it is an embarrassment for the ISI", the official said. "We're good, but we're not God."

He added: "This one failure should not make us look totally incompetent. Look at our track record. For the last 10 years, we have captured Taliban and al-Qaeda in their hundreds - more than any other countries put together."

The ISI official also gave new or differing accounts of some of the events of Sunday's raid. They included:

There were 17-18 people in the compound at the time of the attack.

The Americans took away one person still alive, possibly a Bin Laden son.

Those who survived the attack included a wife, a daughter and eight to nine other children, not apparently Bin Laden's; all had their hands tied by the Americans.

The surviving Yemeni wife said they had moved to the compound a few months ago Bin Laden's daughter, aged 12 or 13, saw her father shot.

The official said it was thought the Americans wanted to take away the surviving women and children but had to abandon the plan when one of the helicopters malfunctioned.

The helicopter was destroyed by the Special Forces unit.

The US has not commented on anyone it captured or had planned to capture, other than saying it had taken Bin Laden's body.

The ISI official said the organisation had recovered some documents from the compound.

The CIA is already said to be going through a large number of hard drives and storage devices seized in the raid. (AGENCIES)

http://thenews.jang.com.pk/NewsDetail.aspx?ID=15118

So people who don't wana believe anything US says, open your eyes. Just 1 article from Jan confirms all possible conspiracy theories created by many pp'ers.

if not satisfied, please read:

http://www.dawn.com/2011/05/04/daughter-saw-bin-laden-killed-pakistani-official.html

http://www.dawn.com/2011/05/04/osama’s-death-is-part-of-pakistan’s-war-against-terrorism-malik.html

http://tribune.com.pk/story/161452/abbottabad-raid-pakistan-upset-about-being-kept-in-the-dark/

if people are still not convinced, nothing can. time to move on...
 
all major pakistani newspapers confirm what US is saying anyway: from Jang:

ISI officer breaks the ice on OBL saga

SLAMABAD: An officer of Pakistan’s intelligence agency has said that the presence of Osama bin Laden (OBL) in a compound in Abbottabad and ISI’s lack of knowledge on this is embarrassing, Geo News reported.

Talking to media men here, an ISI official said a 12-year daughter of OBL is under custody of Pakistani government. She saw US troops shoot her father to death, he said.

He said there were 17 or 18 people present in compound at the time of US raid.

He said, “But that a US chopper crashed amid operation, so US marine commandos would have taken all people back to America.”

Pakistan's main intelligence agency, the ISI, has said it is embarrassed by its failures on al-Qaeda leader Osama Bin Laden.

An ISI official told the BBC the compound in Abbottabad where Bin Laden was killed by US forces on Sunday had been raided several years ago.

But the compound "was not on our radar" since then, the official said.

The government of Pakistan has categorically denied any knowledge of the raid before it took place.

No base within Pakistan was used by US forces, the ministry of foreign affairs said in a statement.

It went on: "US helicopters entered Pakistani airspace making use of blind spots in the radar coverage due to hilly terrain."

However, the ministry defended the ISI, saying: "As far as the target compound is concerned, ISI had been sharing information with CIA and other friendly intelligence agencies since 2009."

The ISI official gave new details of the raid, saying Bin Laden's young daughter had said she saw her father shot.

He told the BBC's Owen Bennett-Jones in Islamabad that the compound in Abbottabad, just 100km (62 miles) from the capital, was raided when under construction in 2003.

It was believed an al-Qaeda operative, Abu Faraj al-Libi, was there.

But since then, "the compound was not on our radar, it is an embarrassment for the ISI", the official said. "We're good, but we're not God."

He added: "This one failure should not make us look totally incompetent. Look at our track record. For the last 10 years, we have captured Taliban and al-Qaeda in their hundreds - more than any other countries put together."

The ISI official also gave new or differing accounts of some of the events of Sunday's raid. They included:

There were 17-18 people in the compound at the time of the attack.

The Americans took away one person still alive, possibly a Bin Laden son.

Those who survived the attack included a wife, a daughter and eight to nine other children, not apparently Bin Laden's; all had their hands tied by the Americans.

The surviving Yemeni wife said they had moved to the compound a few months ago Bin Laden's daughter, aged 12 or 13, saw her father shot.

The official said it was thought the Americans wanted to take away the surviving women and children but had to abandon the plan when one of the helicopters malfunctioned.

The helicopter was destroyed by the Special Forces unit.

The US has not commented on anyone it captured or had planned to capture, other than saying it had taken Bin Laden's body.

The ISI official said the organisation had recovered some documents from the compound.

The CIA is already said to be going through a large number of hard drives and storage devices seized in the raid. (AGENCIES)

http://thenews.jang.com.pk/NewsDetail.aspx?ID=15118

So people who don't wana believe anything US says, open your eyes. Just 1 article from Jan confirms all possible conspiracy theories created by many pp'ers.

if not satisfied, please read:

http://www.dawn.com/2011/05/04/daughter-saw-bin-laden-killed-pakistani-official.html

http://www.dawn.com/2011/05/04/osama’s-death-is-part-of-pakistan’s-war-against-terrorism-malik.html

http://tribune.com.pk/story/161452/abbottabad-raid-pakistan-upset-about-being-kept-in-the-dark/

if people are still not convinced, nothing can. time to move on...

no . Nothing will convince them, For some ppl everything is a conspiracy by the West and they will keep their heads buried in the sand
 
Why does not the Obama administration give the world something, they are actually encouraging conspiracy theories. Burial at sea, refusal to release photos or any evidence, which is completely opposite in what they did for Saddam and his sons.

Let the stories start coming through like, this is USA's exit strategy from Afghanistan or they thought they had OBL but got the wrong man, so now refuse to accept it.

Seriously release something and end it
My feeling is that they WANT the conspiracy theories to be there. Why? I am not sure.
 
Do you mean the same wife who also said he was captured alive then killed by the Americans?

So who should I believe the wife or Americans? :)



:afridi

doesnt matter.. both say he was killed in abbotabad on sunday.
thats what matters.
yoi're denying that the whole thing actually happened
 
doesnt matter.. both say he was killed in abbotabad on sunday.
thats what matters.
yoi're denying that the whole thing actually happened

Of course it matters because one of them is lying. If you believe the wife then you also believe US is lying.

Forget the wife. I simply asked you why I should believe America?
 
No amount of evidence that the US provides will convince the conspiracy theorists. Are you kidding? There are people who believe that 9/11 was an inside job and the US knocked down the twin towers. :)

I believe we have already seen 3 or 4 fake osama pictures floating around the net. Whatever the US shows will be analyzed to death and proven by consipiracy theorists as fake. Infact, that is precisely the reason most people want the US to release the pictures so they can start trying to come up with reasons why it is fake.

Based on statements by some in the US administration it seems like they will infact release the pictures at some point, but I hope they don't. Infact, I hope they leave everyone who are desparate to hang on to any theories hanging forever cuz you know the day those pics are released there are going to be a bunch of people out there claiming how fake it is.

Bottom line, the US is claiming they killed him and you don't see any AL QAEDA websites showing any live videos of Bin Laden to prove he is still alive. If someone is going to step up to the plate and say the US is wrong then you prove it. How do you know he is alive? Back it up with evidence.

Bottom line, you have no idea about who would carry the burden of proof. The USA claims he is dead so has to prove it. If I claim I have an MBA do I have to prove it or do you have to disprove it? :misbah
 
I am glad he was shot dead. Much better than dealing with the circus that would have been his trial if he were brought to the US. KSM's trial has already become a joke here. Perfectly fine with me that he was dumped in the ocean too. Good riddance.

Again highlights your stupidity. If he was killed when unarmed and not posing any threat to these superstar SEALS, one asks the question why was he in fact killed, and not even given the opportunity for a fair trial?
 
Again highlights your stupidity. If he was killed when unarmed and not posing any threat to these superstar SEALS, one asks the question why was he in fact killed, and not even given the opportunity for a fair trial?

They are coming out with all kinds of nonsense now.

Commandos told to kill Osama bin Laden because of fears he was wearing suicide vest

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...use-of-fears-he-was-wearing-suicide-vest.html

I'm not an expert on suicide vests but surely by firing at one it could go off?
 
No base within Pakistan was used by US forces, the ministry of foreign affairs said in a statement.

It went on: "US helicopters entered Pakistani airspace making use of blind spots in the radar coverage due to hilly terrain."

utter crap..sorry but thats a physical impossibility..they had to refuel or they wouldnt have been able to head back..hence the PA and ISI knew!
 
Of course it matters because one of them is lying. If you believe the wife then you also believe US is lying.

Forget the wife. I simply asked you why I should believe America?

and why should i believe that its a conspiracy?
 
This is the funniest article on OBL's 'death' from the daily trash. :))

High-strength marijuana plants have been found just yards from the luxury home of slain terror chief Osama Bin Laden.

Hundreds of the exotic green flower have flourished for a number of years on the border of the war lord's secret compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan.

Despite being a short walk from a military training academy dubbed 'Pakistan's Sandhurst', the illegal crop had remained undiscovered.

But hundreds of officials have descended on the busy town this week after Bin Laden was blasted in the brain by U.S. Navy Seals.

An American reporter noticed the pungent line of plants growing in the dry fields surrounding the five-metre high concrete walls.

CNN's Nic Robertson showed to the camera the marijuana hidden alongside other crops including cabbages and potatoes.

The discovery raised the possibility that Bin Laden may have been a regular smoker of the 'weed' strain of the plant.

Bin Laden had in recent years suffered from kidney problems which may have been eased by taking marijuana for its medicinal properties.

The searing heat in the northwestern region of the country would provide ideal conditions for the plant to grow.

Pakistan makes around $4billion a year from drug trafficking - though opium is more popular than cannabis.

article-1383255-0BE538AD00000578-655_306x316.jpg


article-1383255-0BE538C000000578-563_306x316.jpg

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ana-grew-near-luxury-compound-Abbottabad.html


Looks more like cabbage to me. :asif
 
Further unsubstantiated character assassination from the Daily Star lol...

OSAMA bin Laden spent his last six years as high as a kite, it was revealed last night.

Every day the laid-back terror mastermind breathed in cannabis growing all around his “Good Life” mansion.

And he is rumoured to have enjoyed the occasional roll-up or two.

Lol and wow he even bought Pepsi...

The grocery basket included extensive supplies of Pepsi and Coke - U.S. brands that have become the face of western commercialism that Bin Laden claimed to despise.
 
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No evidence(at the moment).

Now answer my question.

because his wife and child have said that he was killed.
Fact is he was KILLED!.
They only differ on how he was killed.

Im concerned abt him being killed not how.

ISI and Pak Govt also accepts.

And you just cant create such drama.
 
First picture is of the correct plant but could be taken from anywhere.

The cabbage pics were taken by CNN not me.

What is considered marijuana grows wild in a lot of areas in Pakistan. I have some near my house in the village too.

khudaa ki kasam!

i saw that whole report. the main point of the report was not maurijuana it was the compound!
they clearly shoiwed it with nic robertson in front of it and examining it! :facepalm:
there are somethings you cannot deny lol

as for the last part.. whats that got to do here.. and NO it does not grow a lot in every area of Pakistan. Ive lived in Pak all my life and have gone around the country inc abbotabad so dont say that a person who lives in UK knows more than me
 
People under the age of 12 should probably not be posting in this thread.

I think one regular poster in this thread probably comes under that age limit (PakPrince)

Also howzzatt, it is an impossibility that the USA helicopters took off from Afghanistan and used these sort of super helicopter pilots who knew exactly when to take certain turns to avoid this radar which has "blindspots". Also (this has been discussed already), it's not like Abbottabad is 20 mins from the border or something, how could three helicopters have travelled from Afghan to Abbottabad without anybody realising at all? It's as close to impossible as something can get ... this 'statement' by this ISI 'official' is likely due to public policy reasoning.
 
khudaa ki kasam!

i saw that whole report. the main point of the report was not maurijuana it was the compound!
they clearly shoiwed it with nic robertson in front of it and examining it! :facepalm:
there are somethings you cannot deny lol

as for the last part.. whats that got to do here.. and NO it does not grow a lot in every area of Pakistan. Ive lived in Pak all my life and have gone around the country inc abbotabad so dont say that a person who lives in UK knows more than me

Forget the report, I'm not disupting it but merely saying the CNN mugs have pictured cabbage as marijuana. lol

I've never wrote in every area, check my post. Come to my village and you will see plenty around. Legalise it don't criticise it. :amir

ive lived in Pakistan and seen weed growing on the roadside..that is not marijuana!

Agreed, the weak stuff.
 
ive lived in Pakistan and seen weed growing on the roadside..that is not marijuana!

lol so true, we were so surprised when we first saw it outside our place in Pakistan .... but then it's everywhere ... literally.
 
I think one regular poster in this thread probably comes under that age limit (PakPrince)
.

:)))
Look whose talking

I think you are the one whose mentally 12 yrs old and believes in such conspiracy theries wherever you hear them.
 
in any case, the maurijuana is not the point of discussion..

its that bin laden is dead and he was found in my country living freely
 
The proper name for the wild weed plant which grows in Pakistan is Cannabis ruderalis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_ruderalis

thing is...
there are proper fields of cabbage and other vegetables. all in line.. and properly grown with specific spacing between them.
and then there is this plant which is also grown in line.
Wouldnt the farmer or whoever grw the other vegetable cut them off if they were 'wild.'

and again this is not the important paert of the issue. Newspapers need a story so they focussed on it

also tell me why did you conveniently ignore the first photo in the report when you made that post with nic robertson in front of cabbages when quite clearly there was this plant too? seems like you need to make everything a conspiracy
 
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Apparently the Pakistani authorities have custody of OBL's wife and children. It will be interesting to see if these persons are handed to the Americans, detained and if so on what charges by the Pakistanis.

If ever released they could make millions writing a book :)
 
thing is...
there are proper fields of cabbage and other vegetables. all in line.. and properly grown with specific spacing between them.
and then there is this plant which is also grown in line.
Wouldnt the farmer or whoever grw the other vegetable cut them off if they were 'wild.'

and again this is not the important paert of the issue. Newspapers need a story so they focussed on it

also tell me why did you conveniently ignore the first photo in the report when you made that post with nic robertson in front of cabbages when quite clearly there was this plant too? seems like you need to make everything a conspiracy

Of course the farmers would cut it out that's why you don't see any growing in between the cabbage.

As I've said the first photo could have been taken from anywhere. That type of Cannabis doesn't grow wild in Pakistan.

Another reason to ask this question again.

Why should I believe America?
 
:)))
Look whose talking

I think you are the one whose mentally 12 yrs old and believes in such conspiracy theries wherever you hear them.

If your brain was developed properly you would've perhaps had the ability to read and/or comprehend what I've posted in this thread. I have not disputed he is dead. What is in dipute, with reason too, is when Osama was killed, and why he was killed. So long as they don't provide images or video of Osama's death and burial, conspiracy theories regarding his death will continue to grow.
 
Of course the farmers would cut it out that's why you don't see any growing in between the cabbage.

As I've said the first photo could have been taken from anywhere. That type of Cannabis doesn't grow wild in Pakistan.

Another reason to ask this question again.

Why should I believe America?

abay bhai it was a live video report by nic robertson and the camera moved from this plant to the cabbages in one go.

Ridiculous the levels people go to believe what they want
 
If your brain was developed properly you would've perhaps had the ability to read and/or comprehend what I've posted in this thread. I have not disputed he is dead. What is in dipute, with reason too, is when Osama was killed, and why he was killed. So long as they don't provide images or video of Osama's death and burial, conspiracy theories regarding his death will continue to grow.

If you had the ability to read and were not wallowing in your own miserable life you would have had the common sense to understand that people can have their own views.

But unfortuately you have a mental problem and thus cannot comprehend that and make comments without fully reading what is going on.

Secondly I dont really care what you believe or not.
 
abay bhai it was a live video report by nic robertson and the camera moved from this plant to the cabbages in one go.

Ridiculous the levels people go to believe what they want

Chaloo I take your word for it because I haven't seen this report but it's not an important point.

Now will you answer my question? Since you keep harping on about people falling for conspiracy theories tell my why I should believe America?
 
If you had the ability to read and were not wallowing in your own miserable life you would have had the common sense to understand that people can have their own views.

But unfortuately you have a mental problem and thus cannot comprehend that and make comments without fully reading what is going on.

Secondly I dont really care what you believe or not.
I'm not a fan of conspiracy theories but in the case of the USA's foreign policies there have been so many discrepancies and at such regular intervals that it's not exactly unreasonable to question them.

Fwiw, I don't think OBL's alive--in fact I was pretty sure he died some years ago, either that or he was shot 3 days ago. But it's not unreasonable to question the official story when they can't make up their mind whether or not he was armed, or whether or not he was shielding himself with a woman, or whatever.
 
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Chaloo I take your word for it because I haven't seen this report but it's not an important point.

Now will you answer my question? Since you keep harping on about people falling for conspiracy theories tell my why I should believe America?

Its your choice lol.
I dont believe America on everything but when there is no other credible information then Ill believe what makes most sense.

His wife and child are under custody and have given a statement. The only differnece in opinion is that one says he was unarmed and US says he used his wife as a shield. Did they just make up the story? Did his immediate family appear out of nowhere?

Pakistan Govt and ISI say that this happened and it was their filure. Do you think the Army and ISI will accept sth so embarassing for them so readily. Gorget the govt theyll do anything for $$$ but not ISI.

The people who lived around the compound also mention how there was no interaction with the ppl in the compound and how they never saw them. Kids were paid money twice the amt whenever they wantedt heir ball back No one was allowed inside the house.

And the structure of the building. High walls, barbed wires etc makes it sure that no ordinary person was there.

Evidence of a fight in the room.

These all point to me that there is truth in the story. And makes more sense to me than some random theory which sayst that nothing happened and all of it was a farce
 
I'm not a fan of conspiracy theories but in the case of the USA's foreign policies there have been so many discrepancies and at such regular intervals that it's not exactly unreasonable to question them.

Fwiw, I don't think OBL's alive--in fact I was pretty sure he died some years ago, either that or he was shot 3 days ago. But it's not unreasonable to question the official story when they can't make up their mind whether or not he was armed, or whether or not he was shielding himself with a woman, or whatever.

you quoted the wrong post
 
If you had the ability to read and were not wallowing in your own miserable life you would have had the common sense to understand that people can have their own views.

But unfortuately you have a mental problem and thus cannot comprehend that and make comments without fully reading what is going on.

Secondly I dont really care what you believe or not.

Then why have you posted useless trash throughout this thread ridiculing anyone who believes something that you don't? Blinding hypocrisy.
 
Then why have you posted useless trash throughout this thread ridiculing anyone who believes something that you don't? Blinding hypocrisy.

ive given reason why i dont believe these.

on the other hand the best the conspiracy theory believers come up with is why should they believe america

difference

and somethings just dont make sense.
People here just believe that everything is a big conspiracy against Muslims and Pakistanis.

The trio were framed
9/11 was inside job
among a long list
 
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Its your choice lol.

Thanks, I can sleep at night now.

His wife and child are under custody and have given a statement. The only differnece in opinion is that one says he was unarmed and US says he used his wife as a shield. Did they just make up the story? Did his immediate family appear out of nowhere?

Mere bhai at least keep up with the revelations. US said he was armed then later changed their story saying he wasn't. US said he held his wife as a human sheild and later said he didn't. US are saying they killed him because he was resisting and another US source because he may have had a suicide vest. His wife is saying they arrested him alive and then killed him.

Pakistan Govt and ISI say that this happened and it was their filure. Do you think the Army and ISI will accept sth so embarassing for them so readily. Gorget the govt theyll do anything for $$$ but not ISI.

It's not in the intrerests of the ISI to expose the US, that would be idiotic at this stage. ISI are thought to be helping the resistance in Afghanistan so want US gone from there. They know if OBL is considered dead the American public want their troops back home. If the government has made a deal ISI can't do much about it.

The people who lived around the compound also mention how there was no interaction with the ppl in the compound and how they never saw them. Kids were paid money twice the amt whenever they wantedt heir ball back No one was allowed inside the house.

And the structure of the building. High walls, barbed wires etc makes it sure that no ordinary person was there.

The structure of the compound doesn't prove anything and there are many other reports of residents claiming this is all BS. You are mentioning the witness account of a child.lol

Evidence of a fight in the room.

These all point to me that there is truth in the story. And makes more sense to me than some random theory which sayst that nothing happened and all of it was a farce

Just because there was a fire fight doesn't mean it was OBL in there.

The official story doesn't make sense this is the problem.

If it makes sense to you then as you said it's your choice. lol
 
Again displaying inability to comprehend basic reasoning. No need to continue discussion.
 
Nice ad hominem brah!

Maybe if you read the thread (ability to do so already questioned) and understand basic logic you may see why everything the USA says is not being accepted at face value. Don't reply to this. Just read the thread.
 
Thanks, I can sleep at night now.

Good

Mere bhai at least keep up with the revelations. US said he was armed then later changed their story saying he wasn't. US said he held his wife as a human sheild and later said he didn't. US are saying they killed him because he was resisting and another US source because he may have had a suicide vest. His wife is saying they arrested him alive and then killed him.

But the fact of the matter is that they killed him in that compound on that day. That is what you are denying and that is what everyone agrees with. Or are you saying that the wife just appeared out of nowhere

It's not in the intrerests of the ISI to expose the US, that would be idiotic at this stage. ISI are thought to be helping the resistance in Afghanistan so want US gone from there. They know if OBL is considered dead the American public want their troops back home. If the government has made a deal ISI can't do much about it.

So you know the ISI secrets and say that it is acc to ISI plan. But no one else has figured that out. If you can do that sitting in UK the ISI needs you ASAP. Thing is ISI and Army will never accept this blot on their name unless sth really happened

The structure of the compound doesn't prove anything and there are many other reports of residents claiming this is all BS. You are mentioning the witness account of a child.lol

I did not report the account of a child. This was just one of the accounts and was given as an example by an adult. And please point me to sources saying this is all BS. All the neighbours have ppointed out to the wierd behaviour of the ppl in the compound

Just because there was a fire fight doesn't mean it was OBL in there.
so American copters came all the way from Afghanistan to take part in an imaginary fight against imaginary people. Isnt it strange no one has come out in favour of the people killed in the compound. If it wasnt OBL and some Pakistani ppl then there would have been relatives coming out and stuff like that.
The official story doesn't make sense this is the problem.

If it makes sense to you then as you said it's your choice. lol

the reply
 
But the fact of the matter is that they killed him in that compound on that day

It's not a fact, it's the word of the yanks.

I have to go now so I will respond tomorrow.
 
Approval rating for Obama have gone up from 46% to 57% with these events....
This is by far the defining moment of his presidency...

Their legal argument is interesting...

A state that is engaged in an armed conflict or in legitimate self-defence is not required to provide targets with legal process before the state may use lethal force.

"The principles of distinction and proportionality that the US applies are …implemented rigorously throughout the planning and execution of lethal operations to ensure that such operations are conducted in accordance with all applicable law."

He added: "Some have argued that our targeting practices violate domestic law, in particular, the longstanding domestic ban on assassinations.

"But under domestic law, the use of lawful weapons systems – consistent with the applicable laws of war – for precision targeting of specific high-level belligerent leaders when acting in self-defence or during an armed conflict is not unlawful, and hence does not constitute 'assassination'."

"The assassination prohibition also does not apply to killings in self-defence.

Ok so thats the argument for killing him...its self defence apparently...they were in imminent danger and was not just a vengeful assassination...

Seems they also have a justification for killing him while he is unarmed...

Defending the killing of what the White House has acknowledged was an unarmed bin Laden, Holder said he was a legitimate military target and had made no attempt to surrender to the American forces who stormed his fortified compound near Islamabad and shot him in the head.

"It was justified as an act of national self-defence," Holder told the Senate Judiciary Committee, citing bin Laden's admission of being involved in the September 11, 2001, attacks in the United States that killed nearly 3,000 people.

It was lawful to target bin Laden because he was the enemy commander in the field and the operation was conducted in a way that was consistent with U.S. laws and values, he said, adding that it was a "kill or capture mission."

"If he had surrendered, attempted to surrender, I think we should obviously have accepted that, but there was no indication that he wanted to do that and therefore his killing was appropriate," he said.


So basically we are to believe that this unarmed man refused to surrender and therefore was shot in the head...many on TV have stated the preference of a dead Osama saying that a trial could lead to problems...so essentially no accountability for this either because its good hes dead lol...

Seems you can justify anything these days...

Generally I would presume violating a nations sovereignty would violate international law...but Ban Ki Moon essentially is on the ends justify the means end of the argument...

"The death of Osama bin Laden … is a watershed moment in our common global fight against terrorism," Ban said. "Personally, I am very much relieved by the news that justice has been done."

Essentially seems that law is made as we go along and applied only when dealing with nations the US doesn't like...

Wonder how many other nations would get away with such disgraceful justifications...

Its deeply concerning that there has been very little condemnation on the means applied...seems we're getting used to the fact that Americans have always been above the law that we recognise the futility in accounting them...
 
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It's not a fact, it's the word of the yanks.

I have to go now so I will respond tomorrow.

When his own daughter according to Pakistani sources claims that her father was killed on that particular day and place then why your not accepting it ?

Are you saying that Pakistani Army and ISI are bunch of loser's that first let USA to come into Pakistan and fake the death of Osama and then support their theory ?
regardless of that they killed or they didn't killed Osama in Pakistan, US Amry entered Pakistani Soil without any permission , now that is huge shame
 
When his own daughter according to Pakistani sources claims that her father was killed on that particular day and place then why your not accepting it ?

Are you saying that Pakistani Army and ISI are bunch of loser's that first let USA to come into Pakistan and fake the death of Osama and then support their theory ?
regardless of that they killed or they didn't killed Osama in Pakistan, US Amry entered Pakistani Soil without any permission , now that is huge shame

Whats the source of His Daughter telling that her father was killed that Day ,i havent seen any yet
 
I just want to know how long he's been living there, how often he left the compound, and what connection Arshad and Tariq Khan have to Al Qaeda, etc.

I personally don't believe that the Pakistani government nor the ISI didn't know about this operation.
 
Great post shaykh1985. Probs my favourite poster atm.
 
Interestingly I am still Wating for Mr Zardari to annouce this to the Public that " Whats Wrong with admiting US as your Father"

Baap ko Baap na manien to aur kya kerain
 
Bottom line, you have no idea about who would carry the burden of proof. The USA claims he is dead so has to prove it. If I claim I have an MBA do I have to prove it or do you have to disprove it? :misbah

Why can't it work the other way? We haven't seen any recent video of Obama walking around alive. Do you have any? If so, show it. Like I said, the US says he is dead and I believe the US. If you have any other info that leads you to believe Osama is alive then produce it.
 
Again highlights your stupidity. If he was killed when unarmed and not posing any threat to these superstar SEALS, one asks the question why was he in fact killed, and not even given the opportunity for a fair trial?

Really? Now are you sympathazing with OBL that he didn't get a fair trial. The fact that you cannot respond to someone's post without name calling says a lot about your maturity level.
 
Someone hasn't taken a course in logical reasoning and has no idea how to properly debate. I wonder if this person knows about other mistakes and no go areas when one is debating, like a straw man argument and the numerous fallacies one can commit?
 
Really? Now are you sympathazing with OBL that he didn't get a fair trial. The fact that you cannot respond to someone's post without name calling says a lot about your maturity level.
How is asking for a fair trial for OBL any form of sympathy? If anything it should be an open-shut case: OBL=bad man, lock him up/execute him

The worst criminals have trials for war crimes, don't they? Fair trials is something that should be offered to everybody, from the nicest old lady to the filthiest axe murderer.
 
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