Pakistan pacers need to learn the art of seam movement

[RidiculousMan]

Gone are the days when Mohammad Asif used to seam the ball in or out at will. Whole world was at awe of it. But it looks like Pakistan are still in that honeymoon phase.

Almost all Test playing teams have caught up with this art. Hazelwood, Cummins, Shami, Bumrah, Siraj, Southee are a few names who do it regularly and willingly. Even Taskin Ahmed today in the 2nd Test has shown the seam control. Setting up the batter.

Naseem Shah does get exaggerated seam movement but he doesn't quite have the control over it yet.

Only Pakistani bowler in recent times I have seen do this is Khurram Shehzad. He showed control of the slight seam movement he was getting in Australia. Where set up batters like Steve Smith. Khurram is still new to international arena though.

Pakistani pacers need to learn this art. Not to just bowl with upright seam and hope it moves one or the other. But having immaculate control over it to know if this ball will seam in or out. If they continue to remain in the honeymoon phase of the magician Asif was and how no bowler can do what he can. Then Pakistan have not even begin the step 1. Which is to acknowledge that this art can be learned.

 

[FearlessRoar]

Mohammad Asif, he was saying something interesting on the podcast. When you're taking your run-up to deliver the ball, if you have doubt that the ball won't swing, there's a 99% chance that it won't swing. The point is, it's all about the mind. You need to use your mind and believe in order to master the art of swing and seam.

 

[RidiculousMan]

I can only think of Khurram Shahzad who does move the ball off the pitch with seam. Unfortunately he's injured right now.

Do we have more bowlers like him in domestic?

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Asif used to wobble the ball . It's still dependent on conditions.

He never seamed the ball on flat wickets

 

[Abid Z]

Asif could not do anything with the ball when it was 30 overs old with a flat seam. He was strictly a new ball bowler. Pak need new ball bowlers, old ball tight bowlers that can just bowl into the channel and reverse swing, Pak need a good spinner at the other end that can dry up runs and exploit the rough.

Come to think of it Pak need a completely new attack.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Asif was an average bowler. His lasting legacy is being that bloke who took performance enhancing steroids to deliver 120 kph pies. Having bowling idols as poor as Asif is the reason why Pakistan is a minnow cricket nation today and Pakistanis are generally not allowed to participate in serious cricketing discussions or not taken seriously if they somehow get past the barriers.

 

[RidiculousMan]

Mohammad Abbas was doing little movement in and out consistently and troubled South African batters massively

 

[ataullah]

Asif was an average bowler. His lasting legacy is being that bloke who took performance enhancing steroids to deliver 120 kph pies. Having bowling idols as poor as Asif is the reason why Pakistan is a minnow cricket nation today and Pakistanis are generally not allowed to participate in serious cricketing discussions or not taken seriously if they somehow get past the barriers.

Average bowlers don't have ATG'S like Tendulkar on their knees. Anderson learnt the wobble seam from Asif.

 

[Prince of Pakistan]

We need to first get rid of this obsession with 150 +kph bowlers. Reward bowlers who do well consistently in domestic and not bowlers who just bowl fast for the sake of selecting 'fast' fast bowlers.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Asif used to wobble the ball . It's still dependent on conditions.

He never seamed the ball on flat wickets

Asif started bowling the wobble seam more towards the end of his career, particularly the 2010 England series. You should watch his spell against Sri Lanka in Galle, it was a classical display of seam bowling. In general he was incredible in that series on flatter, more spin-friendly wickets. There are plenty of great spells he bowled where it was all about the length and the seam movement. Above all, his brain and skills were on another level. And as someone who saw that firsthand, no one can convince me otherwise.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Amazed to see the disrespect around Asif. The guy had incredible skills and brains. He would have eaten some of today's batters for lunch. The greatest tragedy in Pakistan cricket. No match lost can ever compare to the loss of this guy.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Asif started bowling the wobble seam more towards the end of his career, particularly the 2010 England series. You should watch his spell against Sri Lanka in Galle, it was a classical display of seam bowling. In general he was incredible in that series on flatter, more spin-friendly wickets. There are plenty of great spells he bowled where it was all about the length and the seam movement. Above all, his brain and skills were on another level. And as someone who saw that firsthand, no one can convince me otherwise.

Kandy was a swing and seam pitch . By some measures, it was probably the most seamer friendly venue in world cricket

And Asif was wobbling the ball even back in 2006.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Abbas is a good flag-bearer for seam-bowling but he doesn't exactly have a long career ahead of him. On some level I blame us and our obsession with pace. Abbas's treatment says alot about how we treat and perceive bowlers who don't clock 140+.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Kandy was a swing and seam pitch . By some measures, it was probably the most seamer friendly venue in world cricket

And Asif was wobbling the ball even back in 2006.

Point is that Asif was a far more versatile bowler than you are making him out to be. He didn't rely on the wobble seam specifically. And there are plenty of examples of when he delivered on flatter, less bowling friendly pitches like the 2006 Karachi Test.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Point is that Asif was a far more versatile bowler than you are making him out to be. He didn't rely on the wobble seam specifically. And there are plenty of examples of when he delivered on flatter, less bowling friendly pitches like the 2006 Karachi Test.

I did not say that all. He was a very good wobble seam bowler and a very accurate one at that.

He averages 42 in Pakistan and 35 in Australia though

He was certainly more dependent on conditions because of his lack of pace.

 

[Xoib]

We need to first get rid of this obsession with 150 +kph bowlers. Reward bowlers who do well consistently in domestic and not bowlers who just bowl fast for the sake of selecting 'fast' fast bowlers.

Your attack need to have variety I believe every attack should have an enforcer who can push the batsman back with consistent 140 plus heavy ball rest of the bowlers could be in 120’s and and 130’s

 

[Kianig89]

A proper bowler has all the tricks in his armoury to use when req. Being a proper bowler requires fitness, thinking mind and ability to use the ball.

Some proper bowlers

Pat Cummins
Dale Steyn
Stuart Broad
Kemal Roach

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I did not say that all. He was a very good wobble seam bowler and a very accurate one at that.

He averages 42 in Pakistan and 35 in Australia though

He was certainly more dependent on conditions because of his lack of pace.

He averaged 28 in Australia in the 2009-10 Test series, and was the biggest reason why Pakistan even came close to beating Australia at Sydney, until ofcourse Akmal threw it all away. You should watch his spell at the SCG on the first day where he picked up a 6-fer and Pakistan cleaned up Australia for 128. Some of the wickets he took were unplayable deliveries, the one to Clarke particularly stands out. It was an absolutely outstanding display of seam-bowling. He played one test match in Australia the 2004/05 series but he had just started playing around that point so its unfair to lump that with the rest of his performances in Australia.

In Pakistan, he played four tests and doesn't have a great record but again, his performance against India in the Karachi test still stands out all these years later. I also feel that his record in four test matches in Pakistan is not enough to say that he was "not great on flat pitches." The sample size of countries is not large enough to make that judgment.

 

[aboveandbeyond]

Another glaring issue with Pakistan seamers I've noticed is they havent mastered control of the ball. They are to much on both sides of the wicket, and without that, whatever skill set you have, it's pretty much irrelevant.

 

[aboveandbeyond]

Amazed to see the disrespect around Asif. The guy had incredible skills and brains. He would have eaten some of today's batters for lunch. The greatest tragedy in Pakistan cricket. No match lost can ever compare to the loss of this guy.

KP, Amla sti have nightmares thinking about him.

Also his wobble seam delivery which Broad and Anderson picked up on, vastly improved their out put on flat wickets.

I agree, he had a genius skill set.

 

[Farabi]

I did not say that all. He was a very good wobble seam bowler and a very accurate one at that.

He averages 42 in Pakistan and 35 in Australia though

He was certainly more dependent on conditions because of his lack of pace.

If Indian bowlers bowled on Pakistani pitches, they would all average 30+.
There’s nothing for anyone. Indian batters like Gangully, Sehwag, Tendulkar have remarked multiple times their love for Pakistani pitches. As they say, the biggest “paata” pitches in the world (Paata is Indian word for flat pitches apparently).

 

[Farabi]

We need to first get rid of this obsession with 150 +kph bowlers. Reward bowlers who do well consistently in domestic and not bowlers who just bowl fast for the sake of selecting 'fast' fast bowlers.

Happy to be your buddy as shining light in ending endless confusion in Pakistani minds about what’s wrong and becoming a broken record here about rewarding domestic performers.

Pakistani bowlers do not need to re-learn anything.

We just need to reward domestic performers who take heaps of wickets.
And end our pace fetish: baby sitting the next “pace sensation” and developing them from age of 18 with Pakistan team because “pace is pace Yaar”. Foolish drama rinses and repeats.

Here are some high skilled bowlers that we missed:
1. You give example of Khurram Shahzad. He is a domestic performer with 175 FC wickets.
2. Mir Hamza moves it both ways and also has reverse swing. With control. 6’2 so gets a bit of bounce. 600 FC wickets. How many tests has he played? Why?
3. Mohammad Abbas high skilled bowler wasted.
4. Sadaf Hussain was another one who was mercilessly wasted.

 

[cricketjoshila]

If pakistanis are obsessed with Asif as the seam bowler then i have nothing to say. He was a good bowler not a genius or ATG level bowler.

The greatest mover of the ball, both in the air and off the pitch, with new or old ball is Wasim Akram. No one even comes close. There is a reason why most batters of 90s say Wasim was the most difficult bowler to face.


His diabetes and "other activities" took a toll on his bowling.

He and Imran Khan should be the heroes of upcoming Pakistani bowlers. Not Asif.

Asif is massively overrated on PP. Just like Amir was when he was banned.

Some of his performances are hyped up.

His Karachi test performance...Its on the same wicket Irfan Pathan took a hattrick in the first over. A pitch conducive to fast bowling.

His Sydney test performance...It was a wet pitch, Mohammad Sami of all people had destroyed the top 3 of Australia.

People interested in the scrambled seam ball should watch Shaun Pollock's bowling.

Glenn McGrath was also a brilliant seam bowler.

I still don't understand, a country that has produced Wasim Waqar Imran has to hype up Asif.

 

[aboveandbeyond]

If pakistanis are obsessed with Asif as the seam bowler then i have nothing to say. He was a good bowler not a genius or ATG level bowler.

The greatest mover of the ball, both in the air and off the pitch, with new or old ball is Wasim Akram. No one even comes close. There is a reason why most batters of 90s say Wasim was the most difficult bowler to face.


His diabetes and "other activities" took a toll on his bowling.

He and Imran Khan should be the heroes of upcoming Pakistani bowlers. Not Asif.

Asif is massively overrated on PP. Just like Amir was when he was banned.

Some of his performances are hyped up.

His Karachi test performance...Its on the same wicket Irfan Pathan took a hattrick in the first over. A pitch conducive to fast bowling.

His Sydney test performance...It was a wet pitch, Mohammad Sami of all people had destroyed the top 3 of Australia.

People interested in the scrambled seam ball should watch Shaun Pollock's bowling.

Glenn McGrath was also a brilliant seam bowler.

I still don't understand, a country that has produced Wasim Waqar Imran has to hype up Asif.

I think no one's putting him in the wasim or imrans bracket, however he had excellent skill set as medium fast seamer.

 

[cricketjoshila]

I think no one's putting him in the wasim or imrans bracket, however he had excellent skill set as medium fast seamer.

If you really want pakistani bowlers to follow seam bowling, there are bowlers like Wasim or Pollock or McGrath who should be their ideal not pitch dependent Asif.

If pitch was helping, Angus Fraser ran through sides.

What magic the Sultan created with the ball....

 

[moghul]

I can only think of Khurram Shahzad who does move the ball off the pitch with seam. Unfortunately he's injured right now.

Do we have more bowlers like him in domestic?

And he is a trundler.

 

[BouncerGuy]

Abbas is a good exponent of seam bowling. He can move the ball off the pitch. Khurram is also a good addition, but he needs to stay fit for that.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

If Indian bowlers bowled on Pakistani pitches, they would all average 30+.
There’s nothing for anyone. Indian batters like Gangully, Sehwag, Tendulkar have remarked multiple times their love for Pakistani pitches. As they say, the biggest “paata” pitches in the world (Paata is Indian word for flat pitches apparently).

Indian bowlers have nothing to do with this. For what it's worth , Irfan Pathan has an average similar to Asif in Pakistani conditions.

That , of course, doesn't mean that Asif and Pathan were on the same level as bowlers.

 

[Farabi]

Indian bowlers have nothing to do with this. For what it's worth , Irfan Pathan has an average similar to Asif in Pakistani conditions.

That , of course, doesn't mean that Asif and Pathan were on the same level as bowlers.

You have to read the thread to understand the full context of how that comparison came about.
Peak Irfan Pathan 2004-2006 time period was a phenomenal bowler. Nothing to sniff at.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

You have to read the thread to understand the full context of how that comparison came about.
Peak Irfan Pathan 2004-2006 time period was a phenomenal bowler. Nothing to sniff at.

And he was a conditions dependent bowler who needed swing and seam to be effective even at his peak.

 

[Farabi]

And he was a conditions dependent bowler who needed swing and seam to be effective even at his peak.

The 2004/5 ODI series was a high scoring affair and I doubt India would have won that series without Irfan Pathan’s contributions. The test series were run fests but he was still OK.

The definition of a a good bowler is someone who can leverage favorable conditions though

 

[Nikhil_cric]

The 2004/5 ODI series was a high scoring affair and I doubt India would have won that series without Irfan Pathan’s contributions. The test series were run fests but he was still OK.

The definition of a a good bowler is someone who can leverage favorable conditions though

We are talking only about Tests . I was talking about the truly elite bowlers like Steyn and Cummins. I don't think Asif was ever in that league is the only point I was making.

 

[Xoib]

And he was a conditions dependent bowler who needed swing and seam to be effective even at his peak.

Asif pre wrist injury and first ban wqs phenomenal and bowled spells where he hit 140 often . Asif 09-10 after returning from first ban is overrated he rarely crossed 130 and completely dependent on conditions and was no better then Abbas

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Asif pre wrist injury and first ban wqs phenomenal and bowled spells where he hit 140 often . Asif 09-10 after returning from first ban is overrated he rarely crossed 130 and completely dependent on conditions and was no better then Abbas

Yeah this I can agree with . He was quicker in his first run in the Test side. He had that extra bit of pace and I vaguely remember him clocking up to 142 kph..

In his last season in England, he was actually very impressive. Got outbowled by Aamir and the English trio in some of the most bowling friendly conditions I have ever seen. Heck , even Shane Watson was bowling jaffas left , right and centre.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

We need to first get rid of this obsession with 150 +kph bowlers. Reward bowlers who do well consistently in domestic and not bowlers who just bowl fast for the sake of selecting 'fast' fast bowlers.

How many 150kph+ bowlers even are there in Pakistan? Most seem to be around the 130-140kph like just about every other cricket playing country.

What I have noticed is that a big proportion of Pakistan pacers tend to favour an open chested action which produces predominantly inswing. I don't know if this is because the new ball doesn't last long in domestic cricket so everyone favours an action which works better once the ball is old.

 

[FearlessRoar]

How many 150kph+ bowlers even are there in Pakistan? Most seem to be around the 130-140kph like just about every other cricket playing country.

What I have noticed is that a big proportion of Pakistan pacers tend to favour an open chested action which produces predominantly inswing. I don't know if this is because the new ball doesn't last long in domestic cricket so everyone favours an action which works better once the ball is old.

What obsession? In this cricketing world, we hardly have any pace bowlers who can bowl 150+ consistently.

I almost forgot what it was like to see batters dancing when a bowler bowls over 150 or 155 plus.

 

[Flat_Track_Bully]

What obsession? In this cricketing world, we hardly have any pace bowlers who can bowl 150+ consistently.

I almost forgot what it was like to see batters dancing when a bowler bowls over 150 or 155 plus.

135k+ and 6'2+ should be the bare minimum. If you can't find these pacers then play spinners. I never want to see short pacers or dibbly dobblers.

 

[Farabi]

135k+ and 6'2+ should be the bare minimum. If you can't find these pacers then play spinners. I never want to see short pacers or dibbly dobblers.

The criteria is simple: wickets! Lots of wickets in domestic. It doesn’t matter whether you’re short, tall, quick, or slow. If you cannot even take domestic wickets at a sub 25 average, then you should have no business at international level.

Everything else is fluff - a bunch of myths and opinions. There are many successful pacers shorter and slower than that. There are many failures who are quicker and taller than that.

 

[Farabi]

What obsession? In this cricketing world, we hardly have any pace bowlers who can bowl 150+ consistently.

I almost forgot what it was like to see batters dancing when a bowler bowls over 150 or 155 plus.

I’m not interested in watching batters “dance” at the crease. If you’re looking for entertainment like that, there are other channels for it.

What I want to see is wickets and our team winning matches. Historically, 150+ kph pacers haven’t been the most effective in Test cricket.

The most successful pacers have been those operating in the 125-135 kph range, capable of bowling consistently in the channel and using smart variations to trouble batters.

I want to see the most skillful bowlers play who can bowl with control and movement.

 

[Farabi]

How many 150kph+ bowlers even are there in Pakistan? Most seem to be around the 130-140kph like just about every other cricket playing country.

What I have noticed is that a big proportion of Pakistan pacers tend to favour an open chested action which produces predominantly inswing. I don't know if this is because the new ball doesn't last long in domestic cricket so everyone favours an action which works better once the ball is old.

There are no 150kph+ pacers anywhere in the world playing for any team.

The best attack right now is Australia’s and average pace by Aus in BGT is 133.

 

[Flat_Track_Bully]

The criteria is simple: wickets! Lots of wickets in domestic. It doesn’t matter whether you’re short, tall, quick, or slow. If you cannot even take domestic wickets at a sub 25 average, then you should have no business at international level.

Everything else is fluff - a bunch of myths and opinions. There are many successful pacers shorter and slower than that. There are many failures who are quicker and taller than that.

To consistently win in SENA you need tall pacers and a bowling unit which has a minimum of 2 pacers who can bowl above 140k. A 3rd pacer can be slower at 135k sure but no compromises on height.

Our goal is to conquer SENA.

 

[Farabi]

To consistently win in SENA you need tall pacers and a bowling unit which has a minimum of 2 pacers who can bowl above 140k. A 3rd pacer can be slower at 135k sure but no compromises on height.

Our goal is to conquer SENA.

You’re just literally making things out of thin air. Where is the data or analysis that shows that?

 

[Flat_Track_Bully]

You’re just literally making things out of thin air. Where is the data or analysis that shows that?

Why are horse jockeys short? Why are formula 1 drivers short? It's for a reason right?

In order to trouble an international grade batter and make full use of a SENA pitch you need height and pace above 135k.

And Pakistani domestics doesn't mean a damn thing, once Umar Amin paid for a days worth of full tosses. You find out the worth of a player through A team matches.

 

[Farabi]

Why are horse jockeys short? Why are formula 1 drivers short? It's for a reason right?

In order to trouble an international grade batter and make full use of a SENA pitch you need height and pace above 135k.

And Pakistani domestics doesn't mean a damn thing, once Umar Amin paid for a days worth of full tosses. You find out the worth of a player through A team matches.

How tall is Bumrah?

 

[Flat_Track_Bully]

How tall is Bumrah?

He is a chucker.

A better example would be Steyn or Malcolm Marshall who were both under 6ft but exceptional. If you find such exceptional bowlers then let me know Until then lets go with the tried and trusted template shall we.

 

[Farabi]

I’m Why are horse jockeys short? Why are formula 1 drivers short? It's for a reason right?

In order to trouble an international grade batter and make full use of a SENA pitch you need height and pace above 135k.

And Pakistani domestics doesn't mean a damn thing, once Umar Amin paid for a days worth of full tosses. You find out the worth of a player through A team matches.

Also, Pakistani domestic may not mean a damn thing to you. But it’s the ONLY thing that means anything to me when it comes to Pakistani selections.

Saud Shakeel, Kamran Ghulam, Sajid Khan, Nauman Ali, Saim Ayub, Mohd Abbas, Rizwan, Babar, basically this entire team didn’t drop in the team from Parachutes. They are domestic performers!

 

[Farabi]

He is a chucker.

A better example would be Steyn or Malcolm Marshall who were both under 6ft but exceptional. If you find such exceptional bowlers then let me know Until then lets go with the tried and trusted template shall we.

The “tried and tested” template for success is giving opportunities to domestic performers. Everything else is just noise from a society fixated on myths and opinion-based theories without substance or data-driven analysis.

As for Bumrah, labeling him a “chucker” without any evidence is baseless. There’s no point debating further. Believe what you want; I rest my case.

 

[BouncerGuy]

Thread is not about Bumrah so do not derail the thread.

 

[FearlessRoar]

I’m not interested in watching batters “dance” at the crease. If you’re looking for entertainment like that, there are other channels for it.

What I want to see is wickets and our team winning matches. Historically, 150+ kph pacers haven’t been the most effective in Test cricket.

The most successful pacers have been those operating in the 125-135 kph range, capable of bowling consistently in the channel and using smart variations to trouble batters.

I want to see the most skillful bowlers play who can bowl with control and movement.

The landscape of cricket has changed, now both skill and pace matter. Bowling at 130+ kph is ok, but anything less than that? Come on bro that’s just old fashioned cricket.

 

[Farabi]

The landscape of cricket has changed, now both skill and pace matter. Bowling at 130+ kph is ok, but anything less than that? Come on bro that’s just old fashioned cricket.

Nothing has changed in the landscape.

Pacers needing line, length, and variation with pace as an added weapon are like expert archers.

An archer’s success depends on accuracy (line and length) and knowing when to adjust their shot for distance or wind (variation). The speed at which the arrow flies (pace) is important, but it’s useless without precision and adaptability.

Similarly, bowlers who rely on raw pace without control are like archers who fire arrows blindly—exciting to watch but rarely hitting the target. Bowlers like Dale Steyn and Malcolm Marshall were great because they were precision archers, with pace enhancing their deadly accuracy.

We should prioritize precision and variation, with pace as added bonus, not the other way round.