Pakistan versus India: The Battle of Emerging Pacers

[Kingpin786]

everyone in india clamored for shami over chahal. We don't need chahal for that game. shami bhuvi and bumrah should have played.
Point is it wasn't India's best team vs n.z and it wasn't even a odi game lmao.

chahal was the best bowler in nz seines from india

 

[ManFan]

yea you can't juxtapose the combination of a pre prime fab 4 from the indian batting unit into the 90s era and claim that wasim would have got the better of them. Wasim nor waqar never faced the prime versions of India's fab 4.

waqar has always been a dud in australia. He is useless in those conditons. I can't rate a guy who doesnt perform against the best team. He had a 4 year prime where he dominated weak batsmen. Not to mention he failed against india. Don't think he would ever had success vs india in Asian conditions. I rate shoaib above him because he has the x factor ability to run through sides.

So I can’t compare a pre-prime Fab-4 (which is not completely true because Sachin was in his prime and Laxman would go on to perform well in Australia during the same year) but you can compare a post-prime Waqar? And you ignore everything I mentioned about a decade of no-Indian tours between his debut and his second tour?

I can’t spell it out for you any clearer.

 

[ManFan]

Thread is about emerging bowlers and people here discussing Waqar, Asif , Shami and Ishant...

Anyways..if you compare both the current test bowling attacks, I think India are comfortably infront in terms of both experience and skillset. Odis , it could go either ways. T20s doesn't matter.

But once you bring in the word "emerging" , I think it becomes quite subjective. If we are talking about bowlers who're either on the fringes of the national team or are very new to int'l cricket, I think Pakistan are comfortably ahead. But if you talk about potential future int'l bowlers toiling in the domestics, then it could again go either way.

So, for now I think Pakistan is slightly ahead in emerging fast bowling resources.

Not slightly, we have four bowlers who can bowl 90+ MPH in the setup right now.

India has a few who can do the same but the way their system works, they struggle to do so in the international arena.

Their current bowlers have been excellent though but are on their way out.

 

[tyron_woodley]

chahal was the best bowler in nz seines from india

that pitch for semis was not conducive for spin bowling. I don't care about his bilateral performances. Shami also destroyed them in2018 bilaterals which india won 4-1

 

[tyron_woodley]

So I can’t compare a pre-prime Fab-4 (which is not completely true because Sachin was in his prime and Laxman would go on to perform well in Australia during the same year) but you can compare a post-prime Waqar? And you ignore everything I mentioned about a decade of no-Indian tours between his debut and his second tour?

I can’t spell it out for you any clearer.

laxman was definitely pre prime. prime laxman was post 2004 to 2009.

tenda is hard to say. tenda is overrated by nostalgic idiots anyway. tenda was at his peak post 04 as well to be fair.

wasim I agree is an ATG. waqar just fed off him.When he faced better teams in difficult so within a he failed.

 

[Pakhs]

waqar averages 40 plus vs india and australia. That too a weak 90s india. He struggled to make an impact vs the best teams.

India was a minor team during the 90s so performance against them should not count anyway specially for a subcontinent player as they dont have to test themselves in Asian conditions. Every players will have a team he wouldnt perform against just like Sachin who has poor stats against Pakistan one of the better teams during his peak era.

 

[Kingpin786]

that pitch for semis was not conducive for spin bowling. I don't care about his bilateral performances. Shami also destroyed them in2018 bilaterals which india won 4-1

Then how jaspritbumrah got outbowled by two spinners santner 2for 34 and jadeja 1for 34

 

[DRsohail]

Waqar is a test legend. In ODIs, he is a lot overrated. His ER is very high for his own era.

However, all the three bowlers are certainly better than anyone Pakistan produced in last 20 years.

He was a genuine wicket taker in odi and attacking bowler who can go for runs. 13 5 wickets haul and many 4 wickets. Does not need your approval for that.0

 

[Ab Fan]

He was a genuine wicket taker in odi and attacking bowler who can go for runs. 13 5 wickets haul and many 4 wickets. Does not need your approval for that.0

Approval for what?

 

[Darkness]

Lmao now this is shamelessly defending your own reasoning.... I was going through this thread and you literally said that waqar was the sole reason for losing a match yet your not accepting the fact bumrah is a yesterday's kid who lost 2 crucial matches in tournaments in such short career span and hasn't played many matches to be considered better than waqar LOL

 

[Ab Fan]

Lmao now this is shamelessly defending your own reasoning.... I was going through this thread and you literally said that waqar was the sole reason for losing a match yet your not accepting the fact bumrah is a yesterday's kid who lost 2 crucial matches in tournaments in such short career span and hasn't played many matches to be considered better than waqar LOL

Plz quote whoever you respond.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Then how jaspritbumrah got outbowled by two spinners santner 2for 34 and jadeja 1for 34

You don't understand. Bunrah does a containment job because people are afraid to play shots vs him. Look at his performance vs a rampant English side when india lost. Bumrah was the best bowler for india. His death bowling was insane.

 

[tyron_woodley]

India was a minor team during the 90s so performance against them should not count anyway specially for a subcontinent player as they dont have to test themselves in Asian conditions. Every players will have a team he wouldnt perform against just like Sachin who has poor stats against Pakistan one of the better teams during his peak era.

india was strong at home. nighty Aussies got a phainta there in 97 98.

 

[Kingpin786]

You don't understand. Bunrah does a containment job because people are afraid to play shots vs him. Look at his performance vs a rampant English side when india lost. Bumrah was the best bowler for india. His death bowling was insane.

if a bowler on friendly pitches perform contain job then then it means bowler is mediocre if mat henry or boult had done containment instead of picking wickets they would have lost match

 

[Pakhs]

india was strong at home. nighty Aussies got a phainta there in 97 98.

if a bowler on friendly pitches perform contain job then then it means bowler is mediocre if mat henry or boult had done containment instead of picking wickets they would have lost match

India was strong at home but not for Pakistan as they play in similar conditions. Pakistan beat India in India a few times in the 90 and even recently in 20s with much worst side and the obviously they stopped playing. So Waqar did not really have to prove himself against Indians as they were the minor team.

Bumrah is getting found out for sure - He is containing because he is struggling to take as many wickets. What is going to be interesting is how he adapts to this as all bowlers have to adapt if they are going to have long successful careers.

 

[tyron_woodley]

India was strong at home but not for Pakistan as they play in similar conditions. Pakistan beat India in India a few times in the 90 and even recently in 20s with much worst side and the obviously they stopped playing. So Waqar did not really have to prove himself against Indians as they were the minor team.

Bumrah is getting found out for sure - He is containing because he is struggling to take as many wickets. What is going to be interesting is how he adapts to this as all bowlers have to adapt if they are going to have long successful careers.

waqar had to prove himself vs india because india in Asian conditions are still powerful. Always was. You won 2 tests or 3 at best in 90s. india winning one.

It was pretty close vs a weak indian team.

Waqar was trash vs australia the best team. So yes it does matter. You got to have a complete record to be an ATG. Waqar lacked that. I cannot put him above even shoaib who has a better record vs top teams actually. waqar feasted on poor batsmen from a weak era in early 90s. Many people feel he was already past his prime 4 years into his career. He had a major injury which dint help obviously but he was getting figured out prior to getting seriously injured.

Pakistan never won a test series in india in 2000 era. india won a series in pakistan though.

 

[Pakhs]

waqar had to prove himself vs india because india in Asian conditions are still powerful. Always was. You won 2 tests or 3 at best in 90s. india winning one.

It was pretty close vs a weak indian team.

Waqar was trash vs australia the best team. So yes it does matter. You got to have a complete record to be an ATG. Waqar lacked that. I cannot put him above even shoaib who has a better record vs top teams actually. waqar feasted on poor batsmen from a weak era in early 90s. Many people feel he was already past his prime 4 years into his career. He had a major injury which dint help obviously but he was getting figured out prior to getting seriously injured.

Pakistan never won a test series in india in 2000 era. india won a series in pakistan though.

Waqar has got 370 wickets at second best strike or even best over a long career that proves everything. Only team he has a bad record is Australia as India he hardly played and didnt matter - Pakistan won more game than they lost during Waqar career span.

Waqar is definitely above shoaib as he was successful longer where shoaib career span was very small and was injured a lot. Shoaib should have reduced his speed like lee gradually over the course of his career to extend his career but he was obsessed with speed and still bowled at over 90mph even in his last few games.

By you logic Sachin is not a great as he had poor stats against Pakistan despite playing on roads against them and also feasted on Pakistan poor bowling line-up during transition phase when the greats retired. Actually all 3 Wasim - Waqar - Shoaib got the better of Sachin at their peak and Sachin only started playing better against them during twilight of their careers.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Waqar has got 370 wickets at second best strike or even best over a long career that proves everything. Only team he has a bad record is Australia as India he hardly played and didnt matter - Pakistan won more game than they lost during Waqar career span.

Waqar is definitely above shoaib as he was successful longer where shoaib career span was very small and was injured a lot. Shoaib should have reduced his speed like lee gradually over the course of his career to extend his career but he was obsessed with speed and still bowled at over 90mph even in his last few games.

By you logic Sachin is not a great as he had poor stats against Pakistan despite playing on roads against them and also feasted on Pakistan poor bowling line-up during transition phase when the greats retired. Actually all 3 Wasim - Waqar - Shoaib got the better of Sachin at their peak and Sachin only started playing better against them during twilight of their careers.

sachin isn't. he really isn't lol. Only nostalgic idiots rate sachin. He is overrated. He never performs in a winning cause particularly in test matches away from home.

In his so called illustrious career he barely had a handful of match winning innings away from home. Laxman and dravid were the real heroes. Sachin only performed against Australia. You got to have a complete record to be a true Legned.

 

[MenInG]

Shaheen Shah Afridi to me is a bowler who will stand head and shoulders above his counterparts in India.

 

[Pakhs]

sachin isn't. he really isn't lol. Only nostalgic idiots rate sachin. He is overrated. He never performs in a winning cause particularly in test matches away from home.

In his so called illustrious career he barely had a handful of match winning innings away from home. Laxman and dravid were the real heroes. Sachin only performed against Australia. You got to have a complete record to be a true Legned.

Man you must be very young - Shami is not a great in anyone opinion. He is just a good bowler like many other at any given time in international cricket.

 

[Junaids]

Is Nagorkoti the guy who is The Indian Musa Khan?

Quick, but short and useless.

 

[JattMaula]

Is Nagorkoti the guy who is The Indian Musa Khan?

Quick, but short and useless.

Unlike our neighbors, We don't have many real quicks so even short one is important for us.

 

[Varun]

Unlike our neighbors, We don't have many real quicks so even short one is important for us.

Who are the 'real' quicks that Pakistan have?

Don't be misled by all the hyping they do about 16 and 17-year olds just because they produced 2 good pacers back in the 1980s and are hoping for history to repeat year after year.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Who are the 'real' quicks that Pakistan have?

Don't be misled by all the hyping they do about 16 and 17-year olds just because they produced 2 good pacers back in the 1980s and are hoping for history to repeat year after year.

india have several fast young pacers. India's main bowlers are just too good. Csnt be displaced.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

Who are the 'real' quicks that Pakistan have?

Don't be misled by all the hyping they do about 16 and 17-year olds just because they produced 2 good pacers back in the 1980s and are hoping for history to repeat year after year.

Didn’t many of you say the same about Shaheen versus Nagarkoti in 2018? Now look where they both are

 

[Mirpur express]

Who are the 'real' quicks that Pakistan have?

Don't be misled by all the hyping they do about 16 and 17-year olds just because they produced 2 good pacers back in the 1980s and are hoping for history to repeat year after year.

Shaheen, Nassem , Hassnain , Rauf.. that’s enough for now

 

[Mamoon]

Didn’t many of you say the same about Shaheen versus Nagarkoti in 2018? Now look where they both are

Shaheen might or might not be better than Nagarkoti, but you cannot judge their progress in this manner.

It is always harder for young players to break into a settled, top team like India compared to a nonsense team like Pakistan.

If Shaheen had to compete with Bumrah, Shami, Ishant, Bhuvneshwar etc. who have been phenomenal as a unit for years now, he wouldn’t get a sniff in the Indian side.

Take a look at Haider Ali and Jaiswal. The latter looked vastly superior in the U-19 World Cup, but while Haider is already looking set to become a regular in LOIs, Jaiswal will have to wait for a long time because he has Kohli, Rohit, Dhawan, Rahul, Shaw and Gill ahead of him.

The likes of Shaheen, Naseem, Haider, Shadab etc. wouldn’t have been anywhere near the Indian team at this point if they were Indian.

 

[Mamoon]

Shaheen, Nassem , Hassnain , Rauf.. that’s enough for now

None of these bowlers would be anywhere near the Indian team because India has established, quality bowlers.

It is much, much easier for a young player to break into the Pakistan side than the Indian one. It is always easier to get into a poor, unsettled team.

Leave it to Pakistani fans to do their bhangra without context.

 

[DRsohail]

Shaheen might or might not be better than Nagarkoti, but you cannot judge their progress in this manner.

It is always harder for young players to break into a settled, top team like India compared to a nonsense team like Pakistan.

If Shaheen had to compete with Bumrah, Shami, Ishant, Bhuvneshwar etc. who have been phenomenal as a unit for years now, he wouldn’t get a sniff in the Indian side.

Take a look at Haider Ali and Jaiswal. The latter looked vastly superior in the U-19 World Cup, but while Haider is already looking set to become a regular in LOIs, Jaiswal will have to wait for a long time because he has Kohli, Rohit, Dhawan, Rahul, Shaw and Gill ahead of him.

The likes of Shaheen, Naseem, Haider, Shadab etc. wouldn’t have been anywhere near the Indian team at this point if they were Indian.

Shaheen is definitely itely better than Nagarkoti.

 

[Ellipsism]

None of these bowlers would be anywhere near the Indian team because India has established, quality bowlers.

It is much, much easier for a young player to break into the Pakistan side than the Indian one. It is always easier to get into a poor, unsettled team.

Leave it to Pakistani fans to do their bhangra without context.

Bit of a stretch that when they've had trash like Siraj, Thakur and Chahar play in recent times.

 

[Varun]

Shaheen, Nassem , Hassnain , Rauf.. that’s enough for now

All PSL wonders plus a handful of international games. The most experienced among them is Shaheen and even he has played just 11 tests and 19 ODIs.

The last Pakistani fast bowler to take 200 test wickets was Waqar Younis. I'm trying to search who the last Pakistani pacer to play 50 tests was - it isn't Asif, Amir, Gul etc.

Basically it's a constant set of recycled "17"-year olds who fade away before they're "22". I'm not getting onto this hype train any longer.

 

[shamaan]

Shaheen might or might not be better than Nagarkoti, but you cannot judge their progress in this manner.

It is always harder for young players to break into a settled, top team like India compared to a nonsense team like Pakistan.

If Shaheen had to compete with Bumrah, Shami, Ishant, Bhuvneshwar etc. who have been phenomenal as a unit for years now, he wouldn’t get a sniff in the Indian side.

Take a look at Haider Ali and Jaiswal. The latter looked vastly superior in the U-19 World Cup, but while Haider is already looking set to become a regular in LOIs, Jaiswal will have to wait for a long time because he has Kohli, Rohit, Dhawan, Rahul, Shaw and Gill ahead of him.

The likes of Shaheen, Naseem, Haider, Shadab etc. wouldn’t have been anywhere near the Indian team at this point if they were Indian.

Matches: 9, Wickets: 18, Average: 20.61, Economy: 4.41 bumra in world cup.

Matches: 5, Wickets: 16, Average: 14.62, Economy: 4.9 shaheen in world cup

 

[Titan24]

All PSL wonders plus a handful of international games. The most experienced among them is Shaheen and even he has played just 11 tests and 19 ODIs.

The last Pakistani fast bowler to take 200 test wickets was Waqar Younis. I'm trying to search who the last Pakistani pacer to play 50 tests was - it isn't Asif, Amir, Gul etc.

Basically it's a constant set of recycled "17"-year olds who fade away before they're "22". I'm not getting onto this hype train any longer.

How is this related to the real quick pacers in Pak question asked by you in this already derailed thread? This thread is for “20” year old Nagarkoti. There are many threads already regarding Pak pacers and you can create a new one as well and views can be shared there regarding why last gen Pak pacers couldnt get to 200 wickets. Answer is pretty straightforward however, no point in further derailing the thread and potentially having posts deleted.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Didn’t many of you say the same about Shaheen versus Nagarkoti in 2018? Now look where they both are

Will Shaheen replace Bumrah Shami or Ishant in tests?

Just because pakistan's situation is desperate and they need to throw in 19-20 year olds, doesn't mean India will too.

You atleast need a few full seasons of domestic cricket and perform to get into the Indian team.

Even the legendary Tendulkar was asked to complete season of domestic to get into the Indian team.

So dont compare that since Shaheen plays in the national team, he is better than Nagarkoti.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Matches: 9, Wickets: 18, Average: 20.61, Economy: 4.41 bumra in world cup.

Matches: 5, Wickets: 16, Average: 14.62, Economy: 4.9 shaheen in world cup

Cricket doesn't start and end with the WC.

Why not compare their test stats?

 

[cricketjoshila]

Is this the guy who is The Indian Musa Khan?

Quick, but short and useless.

How is this related to the real quick pacers in Pak question asked by you in this already derailed thread? This thread is for “20” year old Nagarkoti. There are many threads already regarding Pak pacers and you can create a new one as well and views can be shared there regarding why last gen Pak pacers couldnt get to 200 wickets. Answer is pretty straightforward however, no point in further derailing the thread and potentially having posts deleted.

Ask that question to [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] . Who brought a comparison of pakistanis into this thread.

And whats the striaght forward answer?

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

Cricket doesn't start and end with the WC.

Why not compare their test stats?

Is that true for our head to head record against Pakistan also?

 

[shamaan]

Cricket doesn't start and end with the WC.

Why not compare their test stats?

Even abbas has similar average to bumra in tests lol

Even thou bumra is supposedly an indian all time great

 

[cricketjoshila]

Even abbas has similar average to bumra in tests lol

Even thou bumra is supposedly an indian all time great

What were Abbas's stats in SA and Aus?

Bumrah hasn't even played a minnow yet.

Bumrah isnt a ATG. Though he has shown the potential to be one.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Pakistan hasnt had a fast bowler with 200 test wickets since Waqar made his debut 3 decades back and then they show arrogance.

No wonder pakistan cricket has had its struggles, they simply refuse to believe they have a problem.

 

[Bleedgreen4ever]

Pakistan hasnt had a fast bowler with 200 test wickets since Waqar made his debut 3 decades back and then they show arrogance.

No wonder pakistan cricket has had its struggles, they simply refuse to believe they have a problem.

It's because Amir and Asif got banned.
Akhtar had injury issues.
But going by pure talent and average, Pakistani fast bowlers are miles ahead of their Indian counterparts and the reason is genetics.. Indians don't have an athletic body like Pakistanis do. Hence a population of 1 billion could only produce 2-3 great fast bowlers.

 

[cricketjoshila]

It's because Amir and Asif got banned.
Akhtar had injury issues.
But going by pure talent and average, Pakistani fast bowlers are miles ahead of their Indian counterparts and the reason is genetics.. Indians don't have an athletic body like Pakistanis do. Hence a population of 1 billion could only produce 2-3 great fast bowlers.

Amir is unbanned. What has he done in tests?

So genetics didnt help Akhtar stay fit?

I wonder why genetics dont help pakistanis in olympics or cwg or asian games where they regularly perform below indians in sports like boxing wrestling weightlifting etc.

 

[Titan24]

Ask that question to [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] . Who brought a comparison of pakistanis into this thread.

And whats the striaght forward answer?

The poster I quoted was asking about "real quick pacers" when someone mentioned the names (Speeds are available on the threads and in highlights to refer to) he completely changed the stance and asked a question that which Pakistan pacer was last to take 200 wickets.

Its pretty evident why no Pakistani pacer in the last decade or so was able to take 200 wickets. Firstly, take out two best pacers of any nation from their cricketing decade, their second string would struggle to create impact and take too many wickets in limited tests let alone in UAE. Pakistan lost two of their best pacers of the time in Asif and Amir in 2010 itself. Asking Amir is now available, what has he done is an ignorant view of looking at things. Take 5 years out of any athlete in their 20s when he cant even play at club level is one of its kind of a setback. If anyone was expecting Rahat Ali, Mohammad Irfan (With that fitness and age), Bilawal Bhatt, Imran Khani etc to take 200 test wickets while playing home tests in UAE, he really needs to get better understanding of cricket.

There was obvious lack of quality in pace bowling in last decade from and as I said take two of the best under 27 bowlers out of any team at the start of the decade they will struggle more often than not. Bench strength was Pak wasnt great and injuries to decent pacers like Junaid Khan and Umer Gul also didnt help much otherwise especially Gul had an outside chance of achieving that. Sohail Khan was another pacer who was pretty skillful but struggled with fitness and couldnt get selected at the right time. There are countless examples of 2nd tier pacers from each country which faded away.

Current gen of Pak pacers is inexperienced but anyone with even slight understanding of cricket can tell the difference between the raw quality.

200 test wickets is a big milestone and you need certain level of longevity and obviously quality to achieve that. Other than Asif and Amir the quality wasnt great and if there were few bowlers with decent quality they didnt have enough longevity. Further as mentioned playing limited number of tests and in conditions like UAE which were spin friendly also didnt help much.

Also have read the word "hyped" a lot here, only pacers hyped in cricket community of Pakistan in last decade were Amir, Asif, Shaheen, Naseem. It doesn’t mean other cant develop but its based upon the raw ingredients.

 

[shamaan]

What were Abbas's stats in SA and Aus?

Bumrah hasn't even played a minnow yet.

Bumrah isnt a ATG. Though he has shown the potential to be one.

Abbas has average of 16 against Australia and 21 against england am sure these 2 teams are not minnows

Never said he is ATG or isnt ATG

 

[shamaan]

Cricket doesn't start and end with the WC.

Why not compare their test stats?

But I fought hes world class in all three formats how is he getting out bowled by a 19 year old

 

[Mesozoic]

But I fought hes world class in all three formats how is he getting out bowled by a 19 year old

Outbowled ?

Failed against Australia. (2/70)
Did nothing special against South Africa. (1/54)
Didn't even play the tough games against England and India.

Remove his stats against Bangladesh and Afghanistan and his stats look ordinary. You can't just say he outbowled Bumrah who bowled key spells throughout the tournament.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

It's a fact that we have got few decent fast bowlers after a long long time but that doesn't mean we should show our arrogance and teach Pakistan about fast bowling lol. Pakistan will never be short of express pacers.

Shaheen is 20 something and has played 11 tests with an average of 31 whereas Bumrah is 26 and has only played 14 tests with an average of 20. Bumrah is better at the moment but chances of Bumrah finishing his career early are pretty high. He is an injury prone bowler and in the next 6-7 months he is going to play IPL twice.

 

[tyron_woodley]

It's a fact that we have got few decent fast bowlers after a long long time but that doesn't mean we should show our arrogance and teach Pakistan about fast bowling lol. Pakistan will never be short of express pacers.

Shaheen is 20 something and has played 11 tests with an average of 31 whereas Bumrah is 26 and has only played 14 tests with an average of 20. Bumrah is better at the moment but chances of Bumrah finishing his career early are pretty high. He is an injury prone bowler and in the next 6-7 months he is going to play IPL twice.

bumrah is a once in a generation bowler and if he reaches 50 tests he will end up being greater than imran and wasim.

 

[shamaan]

Outbowled ?

Failed against Australia. (2/70)
Did nothing special against South Africa. (1/54)
Didn't even play the tough games against England and India.

Remove his stats against Bangladesh and Afghanistan and his stats look ordinary. You can't just say he outbowled Bumrah who bowled key spells throughout the tournament.

Remove bumra stats against Bangladesh and sri lanka and bis stats even look more ordinary

Key spells against average teams like Bangladesh?

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

bumrah is a once in a generation bowler and if he reaches 50 tests he will end up being greater than imran and wasim.

Are you sure that he will end up being greater than imran and wasim after just 50 tests?

Wasim Akram

Tests : Played 104 Wkts 414 Avg 23.62
ODIs : Played 356 Wkts 502 Avg 23.53

Imran Khan

Tests : Played 88 Wkts 362 Avg 22.81
ODIs : Played 175 Wkts 182 Avg 26.62

 

[tyron_woodley]

Are you sure that he will end up being greater than imran and wasim after just 50 tests?

Wasim Akram

Tests : Played 104 Wkts 414 Avg 23.62
ODIs : Played 356 Wkts 502 Avg 23.53

Imran Khan

Tests : Played 88 Wkts 362 Avg 22.81
ODIs : Played 175 Wkts 182 Avg 26.62

50 tests. 200 odi
150 t20.

you have to be a 3 format player to be a true Great now. bumrah will go down as the best ever or he may break his back again and never be the same.

 

[ManFan]

bumrah is a once in a generation bowler and if he reaches 50 tests he will end up being greater than imran and wasim.

Laughable suggestion, really. Never in a million years.

Bumrah is not even the undisputed best of his own era.

 

[cricketjoshila]

bumrah is a once in a generation bowler and if he reaches 50 tests he will end up being greater than imran and wasim.

No way. Bumrah needs 70 to 80 tests to be considered an ATG and he needs to maintain his present stats.

 

[Titan24]

50 tests. 200 odi
150 t20.

you have to be a 3 format player to be a true Great now. bumrah will go down as the best ever or he may break his back again and never be the same.

An impressive bowler but, irrespective of the era T20 can’t define anyone’s cricketing legacy in my opinion. Ordinary stats of some players like Stokes in T20 international doesnt effect their reputation and impressive stats of someone like Malan doesnt take make to be Fab 4.

If he remains fit because I have always mentioned that can be his biggest weakness with his action then he can be pretty good, not sure about being an ATG. To be an ATG you need certain level of longevity as well otherwise Shane Bond with 87 test wickets @ 22 and 140 odd ODI wickets at 20 would be making a claim too.

 

[Mesozoic]

Remove bumra stats against Bangladesh and sri lanka and bis stats even look more ordinary

Key spells against average teams like Bangladesh?

Bumrah's record barring games against Bangladesh and Sri Lanka....

10 wickets @23

Shaheen's record barring games against Bangladesh and Afghanistan...

6 wickets @26

Okay now tell me. How did Shaheen outbowl Bumrah?

 

[BakuGM]

bumrah is a once in a generation bowler and if he reaches 50 tests he will end up being greater than imran and wasim.

OK I just hope the poster is trying to be sarcastic as no sane person, except highly delusional one's, will agree to this. Ask any respectable cricket analyst and they will tell you Bumrah is not in Wasim and Imran category, period. This is not to say Bumrah is not good rather he is quite good but not on the level of Imran, Wasim, Roberts, Marshall and Lillee.....

 

[shamaan]

Bumrah's record barring games against Bangladesh and Sri Lanka....

10 wickets @23

Shaheen's record barring games against Bangladesh and Afghanistan...

6 wickets @26

Okay now tell me. How did Shaheen outbowl Bumrah?

So afganistan isnt a minnow lol

 

[Bewal Express]

bumrah is a once in a generation bowler and if he reaches 50 tests he will end up being greater than imran and wasim.

He is an excellent bowler but you are way over egging the pudding. It will be interesting if gets his zip back because in the NZ series- although still good, he had lost his edge on very green wickets.

 

[hitthestump]

Pakistan hasnt had a fast bowler with 200 test wickets since Waqar made his debut 3 decades back and then they show arrogance.

No wonder pakistan cricket has had its struggles, they simply refuse to believe they have a problem.

The truest post in the thread. It's cringeworthy to see posters desperately cling on to past laurels while we ever increasingly fall behind the leading pack by ignoring the present.

One of the main issues is that any time a Pakistani clocks 150km/h nothing else seems to matter. The hype brigade begins and that bowler is automatically considered to have 'world class potential'.

I'm amazed by the amount of bowlers that approach has exposed and yet we still aren't learning anything from it.

 

[Rayyman]

All of these guys are under 22

Left-Arm Swing
Shaheen Shah Afridi (Average: ~142, Max: 148 kph), Height: 6'6
Akif Javed (Average: ~136, Max 143 kph), Height: 6'3

Pace
Naseem Shah (Average: ~145, Max: 151 kph), Height: 5'9
Mohammad Hasnain (Average: ~144, Max: 155 kph), Height: 6'1

Seam
Sameen Gul (Average: ~137, Max: 144 kph), Height: 6'2
Mohammad Musa (Average: ~141, Max: 147 kph), Height: 57
Arshad Iqbal (Average: ~135, Max: 141 kph), Height: 6'4
Mohammad Ilyas (Average: ~133, Max: 142 kph), Height: 5'8

So Pakistan has all the bases covered when it comes to young pacers.

 

[Rayyman]

Mohammad Amir Khan is a good young pacer. Can hit 145/146 kph at 19 years old.

 

[Local.Dada]

Pakistan bowling bench and talent reminds me of India of the mid 2000Â’s to 2010 time frame.

I know some Pakistani fans are going to lose their head over this statement so let me try to articulate

About the beginning of 2000s onwards India started getting a pool of very talented bowlers like Irfan,Balaji, Sreeshanth,RP,Munaf,Ishant etc all in and around the same time. This was due to a strong ground level process and talent management system that was created.

These guys would burst on to the scene win us some memorable games/ series and tournaments and then get injured and start declining rapidly and fade away.

We didn’t have a process in place as to how to manage them, handle them, rehabilitate and train them because we didn't have such a pool of fast bowlers before.

Eventually by the beginning of 2010, along with the talent spotting, we started focusing on a good management system to help them fix their flaws, improve their fitness,diet etc. to match international athletic standards. Prime example being Ishant and Umesh who never had fitness issues but had a lot of technical flaws. On the other hand guys like Bumrah and Shami who were not good athletes but had great skills were helped with their fitness and training .

Even a guy like Bhuvi got his pace to 140+ from 130.

I am seeing the same trend in Pakistan these days like I saw in India in the mid 2000’s .

No question about talent here but how many guys have maintained the momentum.

Amir well is a different case altogether but even with him he didnÂ’t look 1/2 the bowler he was before his ban.

If PCB was planning to get him back then did they put any checks in place to monitor his fitness and other technical stuff?

Hassan Ali looked like a genuine talent but where is he? Not just injury but he looked bang average after the initial purple patch was done.

Why doesn't Shinwari play more games?

Wahab Riaz has been backed as much as Ishant has for India. Talented but inconsistent but look how Ishant has turned it around.

Where is Junaid Khan?

There are so many other Pakistani bowlers in recent times I don’t even remember some of their names. Some looked like Indian trundlers from the 90s and some that had promise are no where to be seen.

You guys have a fast bowling culture and your heroes and icons are ATG fast bowlers, so you will never have a dearth of Raw talent but whats the point?

People say Hassan won Pakistan the CT or some other guy something else so what? so did Sreeshanth and RP who not only won us a WT20 but Sreeshanth won us not 1 but 2 tests in SA and RP helped us win a series in England .

I donÂ’t want to get into who was faster, who was talented debate but simple, you can have a Tendulkar and Akram in a poor system and still manage to screw it up or you can have a Kohli , Jadeja or Ishant of 2009-2010 and then turn them into what they have become today in 2020.

Thats not just an important criteria but the entire platform on which talent is judged.

 

[Usman Chadda]

Pakistan bowling bench and talent reminds me of India of the mid 2000Â’s to 2010 time frame.

I know some Pakistani fans are going to lose their head over this statement so let me try to articulate

About the beginning of 2000s onwards India started getting a pool of very talented bowlers like Irfan,Balaji, Sreeshanth,RP,Munaf,Ishant etc all in and around the same time. This was due to a strong ground level process and talent management system that was created.

These guys would burst on to the scene win us some memorable games/ series and tournaments and then get injured and start declining rapidly and fade away.

We didn’t have a process in place as to how to manage them, handle them, rehabilitate and train them because we didn't have such a pool of fast bowlers before.

Eventually by the beginning of 2010, along with the talent spotting, we started focusing on a good management system to help them fix their flaws, improve their fitness,diet etc. to match international athletic standards. Prime example being Ishant and Umesh who never had fitness issues but had a lot of technical flaws. On the other hand guys like Bumrah and Shami who were not good athletes but had great skills were helped with their fitness and training .

Even a guy like Bhuvi got his pace to 140+ from 130.

I am seeing the same trend in Pakistan these days like I saw in India in the mid 2000’s .

No question about talent here but how many guys have maintained the momentum.

Amir well is a different case altogether but even with him he didnÂ’t look 1/2 the bowler he was before his ban.

If PCB was planning to get him back then did they put any checks in place to monitor his fitness and other technical stuff?

Hassan Ali looked like a genuine talent but where is he? Not just injury but he looked bang average after the initial purple patch was done.

Why doesn't Shinwari play more games?

Wahab Riaz has been backed as much as Ishant has for India. Talented but inconsistent but look how Ishant has turned it around.

Where is Junaid Khan?

There are so many other Pakistani bowlers in recent times I don’t even remember some of their names. Some looked like Indian trundlers from the 90s and some that had promise are no where to be seen.

You guys have a fast bowling culture and your heroes and icons are ATG fast bowlers, so you will never have a dearth of Raw talent but whats the point?

People say Hassan won Pakistan the CT or some other guy something else so what? so did Sreeshanth and RP who not only won us a WT20 but Sreeshanth won us not 1 but 2 tests in SA and RP helped us win a series in England .

I donÂ’t want to get into who was faster, who was talented debate but simple, you can have a Tendulkar and Akram in a poor system and still manage to screw it up or you can have a Kohli , Jadeja or Ishant of 2009-2010 and then turn them into what they have become today in 2020.

Thats not just an important criteria but the entire platform on which talent is judged.

Well, we have gone in with two teenage young pacers and had England's first XI on the ropes in the first Test until that inexperience cost us dearly. It doesn't take much to figure out Shaheen and Naseem are good bowlers, who will only become better as they play.

Pace department is fine, our bowlers need longevity. Playing in the UAE decimated our pace bowling, when the likes of Ajmal, Yasir, Rehman and Hafeez were more important to the team.

 

[Bigboii]

Well, we have gone in with two teenage young pacers and had England's first XI on the ropes in the first Test until that inexperience cost us dearly. It doesn't take much to figure out Shaheen and Naseem are good bowlers, who will only become better as they play.

Pace department is fine, our bowlers need longevity. Playing in the UAE decimated our pace bowling, when the likes of Ajmal, Yasir, Rehman and Hafeez were more important to the team.

but his point was that we'll eventually lose them or they'll run out of their purple patch
because they are not properly taken care of

 

[Local.Dada]

Well, we have gone in with two teenage young pacers and had England's first XI on the ropes in the first Test until that inexperience cost us dearly. It doesn't take much to figure out Shaheen and Naseem are good bowlers, who will only become better as they play.

Pace department is fine, our bowlers need longevity. Playing in the UAE decimated our pace bowling, when the likes of Ajmal, Yasir, Rehman and Hafeez were more important to the team.

Of course they are talented, who denies that but the question you should be asking is when you have such a legacy and bench strength how did it come down to playing 2 teenagers with 0 experience in crucial tours like Aus and Eng?

It’s different if they are tested out against Bangla and SL at home and given experience.

That was the point I was making. You can blame Misbah,Arthur or Sarfaraz, Azhar all you want, they can’t sit and monitor every player.