Pakistanis far more politically advanced over Westerners

[KingKhanWC]

Pakistanis in Pakistan chose Imran Khan as Leader. This was a tough long road which wasnt easy removing corrupt politicians who used vote rigging amongst other criminal activities to keep power.

From my exprerience(last 12 months) 8/10 Paksitanis will discuss politics in a smart, knowledgable manner. 2/10 British citizens will do the same, the rest a clueless and only follow what is fed to them from their media.

Pakistan PM - Imran Khan

British PM will be Boris Johnson, a clown.

US President, Trump - King of clowns.

Why are more educated westerners so backward when it comes to politics?

 

[PakLFC]

This is coz Pak is a complete mess and in heavy debt. In such circumstances people will naturally take more interest in politics as compared to the west where things are comfortable.

 

[KingKhanWC]

This is coz Pak is a complete mess and in heavy debt. In such circumstances people will naturally take more interest in politics as compared to the west where things are comfortable.

Pakistan has been in this situation for a while now and even before IK Pakistanis would talk of poltics in a more knowledgable manner.

In the UK the average Joe doesn't even know who the leader of the opposition is and what Brexit even means!

A large minority aren't living in good conditions in the UK after years of austerity by the government for the rich.

 

[PakLFC]

Pakistan has been in this situation for a while now and even before IK Pakistanis would talk of poltics in a more knowledgable manner.

In the UK the average Joe doesn't even know who the leader of the opposition is and what Brexit even means!

A large minority aren't living in good conditions in the UK after years of austerity by the government for the rich.

I wasn't interested in Pak politics at all then it suddenly hit me some years back coz things are and were bad. The uneducated anywhere have always been ignorant of such things no matter where they are.

 

[Angrez Pakistani]

That's just conjecture.

 

[Zhasan]

Pakistanis in Pakistan chose Imran Khan as Leader. This was a tough long road which wasnt easy removing corrupt politicians who used vote rigging amongst other criminal activities to keep power.

From my exprerience(last 12 months) 8/10 Paksitanis will discuss politics in a smart, knowledgable manner. 2/10 British citizens will do the same, the rest a clueless and only follow what is fed to them from their media.

Pakistan PM - Imran Khan

British PM will be Boris Johnson, a clown.

US President, Trump - King of clowns.

Why are more educated westerners so backward when it comes to politics?

In US' case, I can say it's due not to democracy or the popularity of Trump that he was elected, in fact it was the subversion of democracy, the preservation of white supremacy and their minority position through such undemocratic measures and tacits as electoral college, unequal distribution of Senate seats and most of all gerry mendering (which incidentally US Supreme Court just held up yesterday in a landmark ruling) that has made sure a 30% electorate consisting of uneducated underclass whites and rich white elites can continue to rule the country for decades to come.

US Supreme court has a majority of right wing republicans, who are on the younger side of things. They will be around for decades thereby preserving the minority white republican dictatorship in US for decades to come...

 

[Zhasan]

And I don't blame republicans for this fiascos in US, the blame solely lies with spineless corporatist democrats, read repubican light like Obama...

For what was stake and how thoroughly the opportunity was squandered to tap into the discontent of the middle america by offering them the reform that would have close the income gap, relieved underwater housing and student debt and insourcing of manufacturing jobs, a diamterically opposite approach to taken by the Obama in order payback his backers on Wall Street...

Hillary, aka Obama's third term and W. Bush's fifth, lost the election due to the voters in blue state impacted by the aforementioned economic turmoil. Many of these voted twice of Obama, but in the last election, in a state like Michigan with a rich history of labor and democratic support, which Hillary only lost by 16 thousand votes, 96 thousand left the Presidential vote blank and voted for neither Trump nor Hillary...

US political system is thoroughly corrupt. In the last 40 years, since the Reagan revolution, it is on par with a third world country...

 

[Angrez Pakistani]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="ur" dir="rtl">قومی اسمبلی میں بجٹ منظوری کے دوران مناظر <a href="https://t.co/3mI2XXFtZX">pic.twitter.com/3mI2XXFtZX</a></p>— Arshad Waheed Ch (@arshad_Geo) <a href="https://twitter.com/arshad_Geo/status/1144583475040804864?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 28, 2019</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>


Very 'politically advanced'!!

 

[mustang]

In US' case, I can say it's due not to democracy or the popularity of Trump that he was elected, in fact it was the subversion of democracy, the preservation of white supremacy and their minority position through such undemocratic measures and tacits as electoral college, unequal distribution of Senate seats and most of all gerry mendering (which incidentally US Supreme Court just held up yesterday in a landmark ruling) that has made sure a 30% electorate consisting of uneducated underclass whites and rich white elites can continue to rule the country for decades to come.

US Supreme court has a majority of right wing republicans, who are on the younger side of things. They will be around for decades thereby preserving the minority white republican dictatorship in US for decades to come...

Well said! It is surprising that some outsiders make comments about intricacies of political system (with supposed extrapolations of people's caliber as a result) with very little knowledge of how the system here works.

 

[mustang]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="ur" dir="rtl">قومی اسمبلی میں بجٹ منظوری کے دوران مناظر <a href="https://t.co/3mI2XXFtZX">pic.twitter.com/3mI2XXFtZX</a></p>— Arshad Waheed Ch (@arshad_Geo) <a href="https://twitter.com/arshad_Geo/status/1144583475040804864?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 28, 2019</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Very 'politically advanced'!!

Is this the parliament in Pakistan? To be fair OP's assessment still stands because the points raised were about how individual citizens are more aware and not as much about elected officials being clowns.

 

[KingKhanWC]

In US' case, I can say it's due not to democracy or the popularity of Trump that he was elected, in fact it was the subversion of democracy, the preservation of white supremacy and their minority position through such undemocratic measures and tacits as electoral college, unequal distribution of Senate seats and most of all gerry mendering (which incidentally US Supreme Court just held up yesterday in a landmark ruling) that has made sure a 30% electorate consisting of uneducated underclass whites and rich white elites can continue to rule the country for decades to come.

US Supreme court has a majority of right wing republicans, who are on the younger side of things. They will be around for decades thereby preserving the minority white republican dictatorship in US for decades to come...

Interesting, so are you suggesting American democray is flawed?

 

[Angrez Pakistani]

Is this the parliament in Pakistan? To be fair OP's assessment still stands because the points raised were about how individual citizens are more aware and not as much about elected officials being clowns.

People elected these clowns as THEIR representatives which obviously negate OP's point of view that people in Pakistan are somehow more politically aware than people in other established democracies.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Is this the parliament in Pakistan? To be fair OP's assessment still stands because the points raised were about how individual citizens are more aware and not as much about elected officials being clowns.

Yes. Most nations have a large number of politicians who are clowns.

If you were to stop 10 Americans in the street(random people), how many would be poltically aware?

 

[ElRaja]

Pakistanis in Pakistan chose Imran Khan as Leader. This was a tough long road which wasnt easy removing corrupt politicians who used vote rigging amongst other criminal activities to keep power.

From my exprerience(last 12 months) 8/10 Paksitanis will discuss politics in a smart, knowledgable manner. 2/10 British citizens will do the same, the rest a clueless and only follow what is fed to them from their media.

Pakistan PM - Imran Khan

British PM will be Boris Johnson, a clown.

US President, Trump - King of clowns.

Why are more educated westerners so backward when it comes to politics?

that is primarily explained due to apathy, regardless of whoever leads the us or the uk living standards are unlikely to change much and the dearth of actual leaders has disenfranchised a generation, imo, from mainstream politics.

also you will get a warped picture if you are talking about brit paks, that is a diff kettle of fish, brit paks tend to be way more politically opinionated than joe average, maybe its a result of the post 9/11 blues that expedited the process of disenfranchisement among brit paks.

also you have to remember pak yoyo'd between bhuttos and sharifs for decades, so if the leader at the helm is a representation of the political awareness of the people pak was starting from a very very low starting point.

 

[KingKhanWC]

People elected these clowns as THEIR representatives which obviously negate OP's point of view that people in Pakistan are somehow more politically aware than other established democracies.

Corruption, vote rigging, triablism and lack of other options rather than not known anything about politics. Again most people in the UK have no clue what Brexit is, who the opposition is and even how their parliament works!

Do you believe westerners are more knowledgable compared to Pakistanis?

 

[Angrez Pakistani]

Corruption, vote rigging, triablism and lack of other options rather than not known anything about politics. Again most people in the UK have no clue what Brexit is, who the opposition is and even how their parliament works!

Do you believe westerners are more knowledgable compared to Pakistanis?

Yes.

 

[mustang]

Interesting, so are you suggesting American democray is flawed?

No democracy is perfect, only a question of the extent of imperfection. I do believe you are digressing from your own original post though. This thread is not about perfection (or lack of) of specific democracies.

 

[mustang]

Yes. Most nations have a large number of politicians who are clowns.

If you were to stop 10 Americans in the street(random people), how many would be poltically aware?

I would contend if you apply the same standards then higher percentage of people will pass the awareness test in western countries compared to Pakistan simply due to higher levels of education and literacy. If you compare an individual being aware by reading and educating herself/himself Vs an individual becoming aware more by hearsay then obviously hearsay will count lower from among a statistically larger sample set.

 

[KingKhanWC]

No democracy is perfect, only a question of the extent of imperfection. I do believe you are digressing from your own original post though. This thread is not about perfection (or lack of) of specific democracies.

It's ok to expand if related because it reveals issues which many cause a lack of understanding of politics.

What is your definition of democracy?

Yes.

 

[ElRaja]

Interesting, so are you suggesting American democray is flawed?

the us isnt a democracy, its a republic with varying degrees of representation. not a bad system, but highly subverted by third party interests.

 

[KingKhanWC]

the us isnt a democracy, its a republic with varying degrees of representation. not a bad system, but highly subverted by third party interests.

This is the thing, how many Americans acutally know this? I would put a lot of money on betting Trump the President himself is clueless of his own system works but the people elect him. lol

 

[mustang]

This is the thing, how many Americans acutally know this? I would put a lot of money on betting Trump the President himself is clueless of his own system works but the people elect him. lol

This is a half baked conclusion/inference. If you have already made up a conclusion in your mind and want to keep defending it no matter what you would find ways to justify that conclusion.

Trump is an idiot and he was elected by a combination of 2 things - people who are bigger idiots, people who are smarter but felt there was no better choice (vote for an idiot or a dynastic crook out of touch with the masses aka Hillary). This lack of choice made even the politically astute centrist people go Republican especially after 8 years of Democrat rule (anti-incumbent wave). So your statement of Trump getting elected is a testament of lack of knowledge among American voters is either myopic without actual knowledge or a deliberate mis-statement to suit your agenda (Pakistan people are the among the most politically astute).

To stick with the topic, I am pasting what I typed above which seems to be ignored among the noise ....

I would contend if you apply the same standards then higher percentage of people will pass the awareness test in western countries compared to Pakistan simply due to higher levels of education and literacy. If you compare an individual being aware by reading and educating herself/himself Vs an individual becoming aware more by hearsay then obviously hearsay will count lower from among a statistically larger sample set.

Pick a random 1000 people from Pakistan or the US/UK/EU ... how many people here will bet their next paycheck that the 1000 people from Pakistan are more politically astute?

 

[dhump]

The only thing is that Pakistanis are selecting clowns for ages and it is continuing Zardari and co clowns, Nawaz and co clowns and now Imran and co also clowns.

On the flip side, these western nations have an excellent political history, which is evident by their success.

Last but not least most of the Pakistanis are chatty, and they have plenty of time, so it is not something special that they talk about politics the whole day.

 

[KingKhanWC]

This is a half baked conclusion/inference. If you have already made up a conclusion in your mind and want to keep defending it no matter what you would find ways to justify that conclusion.

Trump is an idiot and he was elected by a combination of 2 things - people who are bigger idiots, people who are smarter but felt there was no better choice (vote for an idiot or a dynastic crook out of touch with the masses aka Hillary). This lack of choice made even the politically astute centrist people go Republican especially after 8 years of Democrat rule (anti-incumbent wave). So your statement of Trump getting elected is a testament of lack of knowledge among American voters is either myopic without actual knowledge or a deliberate mis-statement to suit your agenda (Pakistan people are the among the most politically astute).

To stick with the topic, I am pasting what I typed above which seems to be ignored among the noise ....

I would contend if you apply the same standards then higher percentage of people will pass the awareness test in western countries compared to Pakistan simply due to higher levels of education and literacy. If you compare an individual being aware by reading and educating herself/himself Vs an individual becoming aware more by hearsay then obviously hearsay will count lower from among a statistically larger sample set.

Pick a random 1000 people from Pakistan or the US/UK/EU ... how many people here will bet their next paycheck that the 1000 people from Pakistan are more politically astute?

Trump is not an idiot? Have you read his tweets and listened to his statements over recent years? Please dont make me list them. So you're suggesting people in US voted for Trump because they wanted a change from the democrats. This shows a massive flaw in the system, choosing a poor candidate because the other was poorer in their view. Also both parties have similar foriegn policies and not much different domestic policies when actually put into practice, so what is the point of voting.

I was in Pakistan last summer and spoke to at least 50 people from villages and cities regarding politics because it was the main discussion at the time. Almost all were able to discuss the elections with good details. In the UK I must have spoken to over hundred, only a handful knew anything about politics. So im basing this on my personal opinion. If others have had a different experience it would be nice t oread, this was the purpose of thread not to suggest im right.

 

[Angrez Pakistani]

Pakistanis' understanding of politics is overrated. There is a marked difference between political advancement and political awareness. Besides, what political awareness are we concerned with? For instance, Blasphemy is a political issue and a constant source of our embarrassment at most international forums. The rights of LGBTQ community aren't even discussed in most circles. Plight of minorities is often relativised by what's happening in other countries around us. Than we have people who treat honour killings as a badge of honour.

So there is clear distinction between political awareness and political advancement. Hurling abuse at each other, being at each others throats for petty tribalistic instincts, guided by the truck ki batti of the day, is not political awareness.

 

[mustang]

Trump is not an idiot? Have you read his tweets and listened to his statements over recent years? Please dont make me list them. So you're suggesting people in US voted for Trump because they wanted a change from the democrats. This shows a massive flaw in the system, choosing a poor candidate because the other was poorer in their view. Also both parties have similar foriegn policies and not much different domestic policies when actually put into practice, so what is the point of voting.

I was in Pakistan last summer and spoke to at least 50 people from villages and cities regarding politics because it was the main discussion at the time. Almost all were able to discuss the elections with good details. In the UK I must have spoken to over hundred, only a handful knew anything about politics. So im basing this on my personal opinion. If others have had a different experience it would be nice t oread, this was the purpose of thread not to suggest im right.

Scroll up and see my post above yours where I also say Trump is an idiot. I am basically agreeing with your opinion on Trump. No system is perfect so in 2 party systems over time we may get stuck with 2 bad choices. But the system can lend to correct itself.

In multi-party systems usually there is a cluster-fudge with no clear policy and patchy coalitions with no decision making strength. If you go back to the days of Bhutto-Nawaz times in Pakistan, it is a very similar situation of being caught between a rock and a hard place. Neither was a good choice and people only vote for the anti-incumbent hoping for a change. I would say Indians now are stuck in similar situation - a right wing religious choice or a corrupt dynastic prince.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Scroll up and see my post above yours where I also say Trump is an idiot. I am basically agreeing with your opinion on Trump. No system is perfect so in 2 party systems over time we may get stuck with 2 bad choices. But the system can lend to correct itself.

In multi-party systems usually there is a cluster-fudge with no clear policy and patchy coalitions with no decision making strength. If you go back to the days of Bhutto-Nawaz times in Pakistan, it is a very similar situation of being caught between a rock and a hard place. Neither was a good choice and people only vote for the anti-incumbent hoping for a change. I would say Indians now are stuck in similar situation - a right wing religious choice or a corrupt dynastic prince.

Not all Indians feel they are stuck. Some Indian posters who are liberal, westerners but are still supporting Modi because they feel is he a good PM and ignore his right wing religious extermism.

Pakistanis I feel have advanced their knowledge of politics in recent years. Yes many were simply following triablism, voting for the person their parents voted for etc. But now its diffrerent, even in the same families some are voting for other parties esp the youth for PTI when their parents may be still into the tribal thinking. Perhaps it's the youth of Pakistan who are now more aware.

 

[Mamoon]

In USA and UK, the military doesn’t rig the elections to install a puppet President/PM so that they can run the show from the backdrop.

Imran was not chosen by the people. He was handpicked by the military to do their bidding.
Pakistan is not politically advanced by any means. Far from it.

 

[Angrez Pakistani]

In USA and UK, the military doesn’t rig the elections to install a puppet President/PM so that they can run the show from the backdrop.

Imran was not chosen by the people. He was handpicked by the military to do their bidding.
Pakistan is not politically advanced by any means. Far from it.

In US journalists don't often ask the people in power how they are going to pay for endless wars, but they do so on the issue of spending money on public. In other words, military industrial complex doesn't feel the need to rig the elections when the system is already designed to benefit them.

 

[KingKhanWC]

In USA and UK, the military doesn’t rig the elections to install a puppet President/PM so that they can run the show from the backdrop.

Imran was not chosen by the people. He was handpicked by the military to do their bidding.
Pakistan is not politically advanced by any means. Far from it.

The only rigging im aware of is over the years votes rigged by the corrupt Sharif and Zardari.

In the UK and US, politicians are given donations by various companies or organistions. They then do their bidding when in government, this isnt democracy. It may not be the military helping them to power but groups.

 

[mustang]

Not all Indians feel they are stuck. Some Indian posters who are liberal, westerners but are still supporting Modi because they feel is he a good PM and ignore his right wing religious extermism.

Pakistanis I feel have advanced their knowledge of politics in recent years. Yes many were simply following triablism, voting for the person their parents voted for etc. But now its diffrerent, even in the same families some are voting for other parties esp the youth for PTI when their parents may be still into the tribal thinking. Perhaps it's the youth of Pakistan who are now more aware.

Same as not all Pakistanis thinking Nawaz/Bhutto are corrupt in spite of their education. Even educated Pakistanis supporting Zia or a local mullah ... I'm sure we can find these as well. Same as not all educated/aware Americans thinking Trump is an idiot. Same in UK, EU, AU ... Obviously not everyone will think the same way. But saying everyone in a certain group is "evil" because not all educated people in that group are going against bad leadership is incomplete analysis.

Your point on advanced knowledge among Pakistanis - I think everyone in this forum (including the Indians harboring pessimism towards Pakistan) will want that to be true since it benefits not just Pakistan but neighbors as well in the long run. How much of your observed data points are actually a function of increased awareness vs a hope and fascination towards Imran who is seen as "finally someone not from the usual corrupt political mafia". Second point is, if people do see Imran as a political messiah then how sustainable is the system (is he free or actually controlled by the military as other Pakistanis here point out)? If he is not truly free, then any fledgling hope induced awareness that people have in Pakistan now will be snuffed out in a few years and they will go back to apathetic hopelessness (which is sad of course).

 

[world cup captain]

In US' case, I can say it's due not to democracy or the popularity of Trump that he was elected, in fact it was the subversion of democracy, the preservation of white supremacy and their minority position through such undemocratic measures and tacits as electoral college, unequal distribution of Senate seats and most of all gerry mendering (which incidentally US Supreme Court just held up yesterday in a landmark ruling) that has made sure a 30% electorate consisting of uneducated underclass whites and rich white elites can continue to rule the country for decades to come.

US Supreme court has a majority of right wing republicans, who are on the younger side of things. They will be around for decades thereby preserving the minority white republican dictatorship in US for decades to come...

Ah yes, bringing over the victim mentality from Pakistan over to the US now. The liberal agenda in the US today is purely "give me free stuff now" which completely takes away one's control over their life. Never understood why anyone would voutch for the left in the US in this day and age.

 

[mustang]

The only rigging im aware of is over the years votes rigged by the corrupt Sharif and Zardari.

In the UK and US, politicians are given donations by various companies or organistions. They then do their bidding when in government, this isnt democracy. It may not be the military helping them to power but groups.

Now this is a good point. Even as ex military, I'm sick of entities like NRA having so much political clout. That being said, you have to understand day to day differences between high level politics and grassroot levels. In western countries there is a very good level of transparency in the grass root political and government office levels. I know when I vote for a local city official that I can see them, talk to them and they will make time for me. So when I vote I understand what they stand for in pressing local issues and I make my choice. This is true for city officials, mayors, and sometimes even local congressmen. Only at senator level or beyond they become "inaccessible" and get more into higher/national impact level policy making. This level of transparency is lacking in most non-western countries.

Remember - being an informed voter is not just about 20,000 feet presidential/prime minister level policies. Easy for most people to have opinions on pie in the sky high level policies. It is actually more about being an informed voter on local ground level issues at a city/county/state level, and how those translate to national level. How many people in Pakistan are aware at this level with detailed opinions?

 

[KingKhanWC]

Same as not all Pakistanis thinking Nawaz/Bhutto are corrupt in spite of their education. Even educated Pakistanis supporting Zia or a local mullah ... I'm sure we can find these as well. Same as not all educated/aware Americans thinking Trump is an idiot. Same in UK, EU, AU ... Obviously not everyone will think the same way. But saying everyone in a certain group is "evil" because not all educated people in that group are going against bad leadership is incomplete analysis.

Your point on advanced knowledge among Pakistanis - I think everyone in this forum (including the Indians harboring pessimism towards Pakistan) will want that to be true since it benefits not just Pakistan but neighbors as well in the long run. How much of your observed data points are actually a function of increased awareness vs a hope and fascination towards Imran who is seen as "finally someone not from the usual corrupt political mafia". Second point is, if people do see Imran as a political messiah then how sustainable is the system (is he free or actually controlled by the military as other Pakistanis here point out)? If he is not truly free, then any fledgling hope induced awareness that people have in Pakistan now will be snuffed out in a few years and they will go back to apathetic hopelessness (which is sad of course).

The educated Pakistanis who support the likes of Zardari or Sharif dont do it because they think they are competant or good for the nation but because they rely on this corrupt system to feed their own bellies. We have even had posters on here who have openly admitted their families have benefited from corruption and it then becomes obvious why they support such people. If there was 0 benefits from corruption and the history was different, even those would vote for someone who beneifts the country. You cant compare both nations in this regard.

Imran is far bigger than the military in terms of support. He holds the advantage over them because after the coup by Mushy, the army cant ever do the same esp against a man like Imran who has mass support from all areas of the country. Imran recognises the military is important as it defends the land and so do most Pakistanis.

Donald Trump is an embarrasment to USA, Imran Khan is the pride of Pakistan. This simple statement shows you one set of people have elected a leader which gets shown respect while another a leader who is laughed at by every nation on the planet.

 

[mustang]

The educated Pakistanis who support the likes of Zardari or Sharif dont do it because they think they are competant or good for the nation but because they rely on this corrupt system to feed their own bellies. We have even had posters on here who have openly admitted their families have benefited from corruption and it then becomes obvious why they support such people. If there was 0 benefits from corruption and the history was different, even those would vote for someone who beneifts the country. You cant compare both nations in this regard.

Imran is far bigger than the military in terms of support. He holds the advantage over them because after the coup by Mushy, the army cant ever do the same esp against a man like Imran who has mass support from all areas of the country. Imran recognises the military is important as it defends the land and so do most Pakistanis.

Donald Trump is an embarrasment to USA, Imran Khan is the pride of Pakistan. This simple statement shows you one set of people have elected a leader which gets shown respect while another a leader who is laughed at by every nation on the planet.

This is a surface level statement without in depth analysis to be honest.

Educated people supporting Nawaz/Bhutto/Others ... your assertion is that they are only supporting due to personal gains. So all Pakistanis supporting "bad guys" are only doing it for personal gains and not due to malice inside themselves whereas all educated Indians supporting the "bad guys" are doing it because they have malice inside - is this your logical conclusion? Clearly you can also see this cannot be statistically accurate across a large population set? If my stated inference of yours in blue is accurate, do a lot of Pakistanis think of Indians or Americans this way? Do Pakistani posters here in PP also hold this opinion of all Indians? Very curious now.

 

[James]

It’s a good point really, the UK and the US are two of the most advanced and aspirational nations in the world, and yet soon enough they will be respectively ruled by Laurel & Hardy.

I am not sure how it works in Pakistan - but I suppose with 50 US states all creating their own laws, and with a strong system of devolution in the UK which starts with individual countries and then goes all the way down to city councils (and sometimes even town halls and parishes), whoever sits in the White House or in 10 Downing Street will only matter to an extent - and it actually has no bearing at all on many locally important issues to culturally diverse populations.

 

[Robert]

I think you may be experiencing confirmation bias [MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION]. You probably only know intelligent educated Pakistanis and are comparing them with a mass of uneducated Westerners.

Populism is the problem. The growth of TV ‘reality’ shows has been incredibly corrosive to politics in the USA because it has allowed a clown with no political experience or ability to become POTUS purely through brand recognition.

On a similar theme, how many Pakistanis voted for Imran because he won the World Cup?

Social media is also to blame, for a reduction in our collective ability to think critically. The number of people who seem to think that austerity measures had something to do with the Grenfell fire disaster staggers me. Memes propagate across social media and emotion takes the place of thought.

We should start teaching citizenship at school. Basic politics, philosophy and economics to arm our children against the lies of the populists.

 

[Zhasan]

Interesting, so are you suggesting American democray is flawed?

To call it corrupt would be an under statement. Harvard did a long term study, in which they found that for any legislation to pass, the number one factor in its success was the amount of money backing it, generally speaking there are always exceptions like everything else in life. Specifically they found that any bill that was backed by the special interest, i.e. lobbies/corporations/money no matter how unpopular had a 90% chance of approval whereas any bill that had wider cross public support only had a 10% chance of getting approved. And then you have the supreme court to uphold those highly unpopular laws and strike down anything that has made it past the first filter and goes against the white monied interest.

Citizens United was another highly undemocratic decision that US supreme ruled on, declaring corporations to be the same as people and allowing them to make unlimited contributions, read bribes to politicians, thereby dismantling the foundation of democracy in US.

 

[Markhor]

Think [MENTION=149123]Zhasan[/MENTION] has summarised the state of US politics extremely well.

What it does it say about the state of your democracy when the Electoral College overturns the will of people in two elections, when government healthcare programmes which every developed country has is compared to communism, when legislators don't lift a finger when schoolchildren are massacred time and again by military style assault weapons, and when minorities are disenfranchised on a mass scale thanks to decades of gerrymandering and voter suppression ?

In the UK, we are sadly increasingly taking cue from US style showbiz politics as exemplified by the buffoon that'll be the next PM. The understanding of the European Union amongst the common man is akin to a second grader. People aren't even aware of the basic issues around Brexit such as the Irish border, the Single Market and Customs Union let alone tell you anything about it.

In Pakistan politics does seem like more of a dinnertable topic but the discourse in this post-Bhutto/Zia generation usually becomes toxic on issues relating to religion. Namely minorities rights, Ahmedi rights, blasphemy law and womens rights which have steadily degraded.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I think you may be experiencing confirmation bias [MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION]. You probably only know intelligent educated Pakistanis and are comparing them with a mass of uneducated Westerners.

Populism is the problem. The growth of TV ‘reality’ shows has been incredibly corrosive to politics in the USA because it has allowed a clown with no political experience or ability to become POTUS purely through brand recognition.

On a similar theme, how many Pakistanis voted for Imran because he won the World Cup?

Social media is also to blame, for a reduction in our collective ability to think critically. The number of people who seem to think that austerity measures had something to do with the Grenfell fire disaster staggers me. Memes propagate across social media and emotion takes the place of thought.

We should start teaching citizenship at school. Basic politics, philosophy and economics to arm our children against the lies of the populists.

I can tell you from experience this isnt the case. Even those who are not educated to any decent standard will happily sit there to discuss politics and im referring to those who live in villages. Of course there may be differing views but they can hold a conversation on various topics from taxes, corruption, transport etc.

Imran became famous because of his cricket but he won the world cup in 92 and if you check he has been in politics a long time but lost general elections. Imran became PM because people trust him, he's clean and a brave , strong leader with charisma.

On the other hand in the UK we have the likes of May and next Boris, who are not fit to lick the boots of a human like Imran. Bottom line is the people of Pakistan have chosen a great man to be their leader, while the Brits and Yanks have chosen people better off in a circus act..for the blind.

I agree with your last point. We cannot select the right person to lead us if we are ignorant of how the system even works or what is important in democracy. I hope things will change because the UK should be leading the way in having a strong, fair and carrying leader for the people of this great nation.

 

[Gilly]

I can tell you from experience this isnt the case. Even those who are not educated to any decent standard will happily sit there to discuss politics and im referring to those who live in villages. Of course there may be differing views but they can hold a conversation on various topics from taxes, corruption, transport etc.

Imran became famous because of his cricket but he won the world cup in 92 and if you check he has been in politics a long time but lost general elections. Imran became PM because people trust him, he's clean and a brave , strong leader with charisma.

On the other hand in the UK we have the likes of May and next Boris, who are not fit to lick the boots of a human like Imran. Bottom line is the people of Pakistan have chosen a great man to be their leader, while the Brits and Yanks have chosen people better off in a circus act..for the blind.

I agree with your last point. We cannot select the right person to lead us if we are ignorant of how the system even works or what is important in democracy. I hope things will change because the UK should be leading the way in having a strong, fair and carrying leader for the people of this great nation.

Reality has left the building. lol

 

[KingKhanWC]

Reality has left the building. lol

Imran Khan is everything much more than Trump. Can you name a single trait of Donald Duck which is superiour to Imran?

 

[Gilly]

Imran Khan is everything much more than Trump. Can you name a single trait of Donald Duck which is superiour to Imran?

I'm not dumb, I'm a westerner and you are more politically advanced than me because you are Pakistani. I'll take my licks from you because you are so much more advanced than me. I bow to your superior race.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I'm not dumb, I'm a westerner and you are more politically advanced than me because you are Pakistani. I'll take my licks from you because you are so much more advanced than me. I bow to your superior race.

I thought my post clearly showed I was generalising.

You're a Trump supporter so by default have no clue of politics and please explain Trump is anywhere near the level as Imran as a human being and politician? Dont make a claim and run from it.

 

[Gilly]

I thought my post clearly showed I was generalising.

You're a Trump supporter so by default have no clue of politics and please explain Trump is anywhere near the level as Imran as a human being and politician? Dont make a claim and run from it.

What claim did I make ?.

 

[KingKhanWC]

What claim did I make ?.

I wrote

" in the UK we have the likes of May and next Boris, who are not fit to lick the boots of a human like Imran. "

You replied highlighting "Reality has left the building. lol "

Which part of statement is out of touch with reality?

 

[Tubs]

There's no evidence to back up what you said regarding numbers in the OP, and it's also purely anecdotal, so it is a non-argument.

I do agree that Boris and Trump are clowns, but those are just opinions. I am also very happy that IK is PM. However, to say Pakistan is politically advanced over the West is just ridiculous. Atif Mian had to step down from his position due to death threats for being a 'qadiani', and imagine the outrage if a non-Muslim was running for PM in Pakistan, or even a non-ethnic Pakistani, and let's not even mention the blasphemy law.

Now look at the UK, a Pakistani was a candidate to be PM, there's a Pakistani Muslim mayor, and most of the public are indifferent to the religion of the PM as long as they're secular. Until Pakistan is a secular democracy, it will never be 'more politically advanced' than the West.

 

[Zhasan]

There's no evidence to back up what you said regarding numbers in the OP, and it's also purely anecdotal, so it is a non-argument.

I do agree that Boris and Trump are clowns, but those are just opinions. I am also very happy that IK is PM. However, to say Pakistan is politically advanced over the West is just ridiculous. Atif Mian had to step down from his position due to death threats for being a 'qadiani', and imagine the outrage if a non-Muslim was running for PM in Pakistan, or even a non-ethnic Pakistani, and let's not even mention the blasphemy law.

Now look at the UK, a Pakistani was a candidate to be PM, there's a Pakistani Muslim mayor, and most of the public are indifferent to the religion of the PM as long as they're secular. Until Pakistan is a secular democracy, it will never be 'more politically advanced' than the West.

Let's not use this opportunity to plug your myopic sectarian agenda...

First of all there were no death threats to anyone for Atif Mian's appointment. If you want to know about real death threat just take a look at what US Congresswomen Omar and Tlaib have to deal with on a daily basis for just being Muslims...

And speaking of US, you do realize religion still matters...

When the republican nominee for 2008 election has to state that "No Mame, Obama is not an Arab/Muslim, but a decent American", non-christian/jewish americans have a long way to go to attain the true secular utopia. And in Pakistan we've had non-sunni minority and non-muslim minority in some of the highest offices of the nation.

50% of Pakistan's heads of state have been minority Shias. At least two of the Army Chief of Staff, arguably the most powerful man in Pakistan have also been shias. One of the Chief justices was a hindu. These are the accomplishments secular and highly enlightened societies in the West and our uber secular neighbor India can only dream of...

 

[Tubs]

Let's not use this opportunity to plug your myopic sectarian agenda...

First of all there were no death threats to anyone for Atif Mian's appointment. If you want to know about real death threat just take a look at what US Congresswomen Omar and Tlaib have to deal with on a daily basis for just being Muslims...

And speaking of US, you do realize religion still matters...

When the republican nominee for 2008 election has to state that "No Mame, Obama is not an Arab/Muslim, but a decent American", non-christian/jewish americans have a long way to go to attain the true secular utopia. And in Pakistan we've had non-sunni minority and non-muslim minority in some of the highest offices of the nation.

50% of Pakistan's heads of state have been minority Shias. At least two of the Army Chief of Staff, arguably the most powerful man in Pakistan have also been shias. One of the Chief justices was a hindu. These are the accomplishments secular and highly enlightened societies in the West and our uber secular neighbor India can only dream of...

So it's okay for OP to, very clearly, push their agenda because it aligns with your views, but not for me to state me views? Right, okay.

Maybe I was slightly incorrect about Mian's situation, but there's no denying that he faced discrimination and was made to step down because of his faith. That would never happen in the West. Omar (I don't know who Tlaib is) is a congresswoman and she won't be discharged because of her faith, stop using false equivalences.

I used the UK as my example for a reason, as there is far less emphasis on religion in this society. I agree that there is a more Christian-centric view in the US, but it is still far more fair than Pakistan. Would governments in the West bow to some thugs and discharge someone because of their faith? Of course not. Also, a Hindu is leading the polls for the Democratic leadership in the US currently.

Really? A few minorities selected in Pakistan and it has achieved more than the West? Don't get me wrong, I'm not painting Pakistan as some place devoid of fairness, but it is certainly less fair than the West. Anyone can obtain any position here, regardless of their religion. I also need a citation for 50% of the heads of state being Shia, and then I'd also need evidence that it would be accepted today in Pakistan.

It is also a requirement to be a Muslim to be PM of Pakistan. There is no such religious requirement in the US or the UK. And again, there is the problem of the awfully archaic blasphemy law. However, I will say that Pakistan certainly isn't as bad as some Western media portrays, and I certainly do dislike some of the bias of MSM. These reservations, however, do not diminish the points I have made.

 

[KingKhanWC]

So it's okay for OP to, very clearly, push their agenda because it aligns with your views, but not for me to state me views? Right, okay.

Maybe I was slightly incorrect about Mian's situation, but there's no denying that he faced discrimination and was made to step down because of his faith. That would never happen in the West. Omar (I don't know who Tlaib is) is a congresswoman and she won't be discharged because of her faith, stop using false equivalences.

I used the UK as my example for a reason, as there is far less emphasis on religion in this society. I agree that there is a more Christian-centric view in the US, but it is still far more fair than Pakistan. Would governments in the West bow to some thugs and discharge someone because of their faith? Of course not. Also, a Hindu is leading the polls for the Democratic leadership in the US currently.

Really? A few minorities selected in Pakistan and it has achieved more than the West? Don't get me wrong, I'm not painting Pakistan as some place devoid of fairness, but it is certainly less fair than the West. Anyone can obtain any position here, regardless of their religion. I also need a citation for 50% of the heads of state being Shia, and then I'd also need evidence that it would be accepted today in Pakistan.

It is also a requirement to be a Muslim to be PM of Pakistan. There is no such religious requirement in the US or the UK. And again, there is the problem of the awfully archaic blasphemy law. However, I will say that Pakistan certainly isn't as bad as some Western media portrays, and I certainly do dislike some of the bias of MSM. These reservations, however, do not diminish the points I have made.

Will you ever stop crying about religion? I never mentioned religion being the reason Pakistanis are more advanced because they have time after time rejected religious parties. In fact it's religion, Christian extremism which has gone a long way to elect Trump. You really dont have a scooby doo but jump at attacking religion when you can.

 

[Obaidd]

Pakistanis in Pakistan chose Imran Khan as Leader. This was a tough long road which wasnt easy removing corrupt politicians who used vote rigging amongst other criminal activities to keep power.

From my exprerience(last 12 months) 8/10 Paksitanis will discuss politics in a smart, knowledgable manner. 2/10 British citizens will do the same, the rest a clueless and only follow what is fed to them from their media.

Pakistan PM - Imran Khan

British PM will be Boris Johnson, a clown.

US President, Trump - King of clowns.

Why are more educated westerners so backward when it comes to politics?

Many inside and outside Pakistan also consider IK a clown. He is developing a reputation as a clean man but compulsive liar.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Many inside and outside Pakistan also consider IK a clown. He is developing a reputation as a clean man but compulsive liar.

Only those who gained from corruption in Pakistan see him in any negative way and which outsiders are you talking of? All world leaders from what I have seen hold him in high regard.

Politicians have a change in policy, this is normal.

 

[Obaidd]

Only those who gained from corruption in Pakistan see him in any negative way and which outsiders are you talking of? All world leaders from what I have seen hold him in high regard.

Politicians have a change in policy, this is normal.

Trevor Noah did a skit on him titled ‘The Pakistani Trump’.

Look man I live in Pak. People are really disillusioned with him. Only the blind followers are still worshipping him.

And why would any world leader hold him in high regard? What has he done exactly?

 

[Tubs]

Will you ever stop crying about religion? I never mentioned religion being the reason Pakistanis are more advanced because they have time after time rejected religious parties. In fact it's religion, Christian extremism which has gone a long way to elect Trump. You really dont have a scooby doo but jump at attacking religion when you can.

Will you ever stop crying over the West?

Religion is intrinsically linked to Pakistani politics, so it has to be mentioned here.

Pakistan rejected religious parties? Every party in Pakistan is religious. They have to be, because it's even in the PM oath to state that you're Muslim and accept Muhammad and the rest.

I agreed in my post about a Christian-centric bias in the US (however to say it's Christian 'extremism' that got Trump elected is pretty stupid and reductionist), but it's not to the extent of Pakistan, as there are no religious obligations for the POTUS.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Trevor Noah did a skit on him titled ‘The Pakistani Trump’.

Look man I live in Pak. People are really disillusioned with him. Only the blind followers are still worshipping him.

And why would any world leader hold him in high regard? What has he done exactly?

Trevor Noah? lol

I have family in Pakistan too, they think he's doing a good job and most of them are not blind followers because after finally waking up they changed from years of supporting PMLN.

It;s his character , he's been in office less than a year.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Will you ever stop crying over the West?

Religion is intrinsically linked to Pakistani politics, so it has to be mentioned here.

Pakistan rejected religious parties? Every party in Pakistan is religious. They have to be, because it's even in the PM oath to state that you're Muslim and accept Muhammad and the rest.

I agreed in my post about a Christian-centric bias in the US (however to say it's Christian 'extremism' that got Trump elected is pretty stupid and reductionist), but it's not to the extent of Pakistan, as there are no religious obligations for the POTUS.

If you read my posts, I am dissapointed about having a clown like Boris so I am supporting the UK(west) in having a great leader not an idiot but I assume you like Boris because of his racism and his views on Muslim women.

Pakistanis didn't elect Imran Khan because of religion but because he has a clean background, great personality and has sacrificed himself for the nation. In the UK Boris will be selected as leader due to his bigtory and the same goes for Trump who was elected by right wing nutters.

 

[Tubs]

If you read my posts, I am dissapointed about having a clown like Boris so I am supporting the UK(west) in having a great leader not an idiot but I assume you like Boris because of his racism and his views on Muslim women.

Pakistanis didn't elect Imran Khan because of religion but because he has a clean background, great personality and has sacrificed himself for the nation. In the UK Boris will be selected as leader due to his bigtory and the same goes for Trump who was elected by right wing nutters.

If you read my original post in this thread, you'd see that I agreed with your views on Boris and Trump.

I never said that, my point is that you must be a Muslim to be PM in Pakistan, and that means that it's inferior to the secular model as there is no religious requirement.

 

[KingKhanWC]

If you read my original post in this thread, you'd see that I agreed with your views on Boris and Trump.

I never said that, my point is that you must be a Muslim to be PM in Pakistan, and that means that it's inferior to the secular model as there is no religious requirement.

Thread was regarding how politically knowledgable Paksitanis are not the system in place.

But please do explain how a seuclar model is more superiour?

 

[Robert]

If you read my posts, I am dissapointed about having a clown like Boris so I am supporting the UK(west) in having a great leader not an idiot but I assume you like Boris because of his racism and his views on Muslim women.

Pakistanis didn't elect Imran Khan because of religion but because he has a clean background, great personality and has sacrificed himself for the nation. In the UK Boris will be selected as leader due to his bigtory and the same goes for Trump who was elected by right wing nutters.

I think that’s simplistic in the case of Trump. For one thing, Clinton came across as entitled and unlikable. For another the Rust Belt swung behind the Republican for the first time because of loss of jobs overseas in the long term. For a third, Fox News continually said they would prefer Putin to Obama, so Middle America became drip-fed into thinking subconsciously that a populist neofascist was better than a pluralist consensus-seeking liberal. That made it easier for them to vote for a creature of Putin rather than another pluralist liberal.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I think that’s simplistic in the case of Trump. For one thing, Clinton came across as entitled and unlikable. For another the Rust Belt swung behind the Republican for the first time because of loss of jobs overseas in the long term. For a third, Fox News continually said they would prefer Putin to Obama, so Middle America became drip-fed into thinking subconsciously that a populist neofascist was better than a pluralist consensus-seeking liberal. That made it easier for them to vote for a creature of Putin rather than another pluralist liberal.

All recent American and UK leaders have been pathetic. Trump, Obama, Blair , May, Cameron etc all worked for the interests of others and not the people. This is the difference between them and Imran Khan, he works for the people. Ironic the 'civilised' first world population are mostly fooled every year but people in Pakistan are no longer fooled and are much smarter when it comes to politics.

 

[Runner Up]

Thanks to media. People like watching talk shows. Full of entertainment.

 

[barah_admi]

I will agree wholeheartedly. Speaking to many Pakistanis actually from Pakistan, they are entirely clued into the political establishment, have an understanding of the parties and their aims above the average brit or American.

The problem, the media over here is so powerful and its views so deeply entrenched into our society that people don't even realise what they're saying or that their ideas are not their own.

 

[Robert]

All recent American and UK leaders have been pathetic. Trump, Obama, Blair , May, Cameron etc all worked for the interests of others and not the people. This is the difference between them and Imran Khan, he works for the people. Ironic the 'civilised' first world population are mostly fooled every year but people in Pakistan are no longer fooled and are much smarter when it comes to politics.

You didn’t counter my Trump point, you just gave a load of rhetoric.

Blair, Brown and Obama worked for their people.

And if Imran hadn’t been a sports hero who won the WC would he have been elected?

 

[KingKhanWC]

You didn’t counter my Trump point, you just gave a load of rhetoric.

Blair, Brown and Obama worked for their people.

And if Imran hadn’t been a sports hero who won the WC would he have been elected?

No need as both Trump and Clinton are not much different.

Tony Blair helped killed hundreds of his own troops by illegaling invading Iraq. Brown sold off UK's Gold when he knew it was about to increase in price. Obama was a just a good actor, more black people are being shot by police than ever before. I could list many things. They all work for Lobbys not for the people.

Sure Imran rose to fame due to cricket but again he wasn't elected many times, so him becoming PM wasn't because of his fame.

Do you really believe the likes of Boris and Trump are anywhere near the level of Imran when it comes to being a leader and a leader who is open, transparant? He has done more in one year for Pakistan than all the UK, US leaders have done in the past decade.

 

[Tubs]

Thread was regarding how politically knowledgable Paksitanis are not the system in place.

But please do explain how a seuclar model is more superiour?

The reason for me bringing secularism in is because most Pakistanis, no matter how 'politically knowledgeable', will not vote for someone who isn't Muslim. That in itself shows how secularsim is superior, because in societies where there is genuine separation between religion and state, a person's religion won't be a factor. Also, it makes sure ridiculous things, such as blasphemy laws, will never be implemented.

 

[KingKhanWC]

The reason for me bringing secularism in is because most Pakistanis, no matter how 'politically knowledgeable', will not vote for someone who isn't Muslim. That in itself shows how secularsim is superior, because in societies where there is genuine separation between religion and state, a person's religion won't be a factor. Also, it makes sure ridiculous things, such as blasphemy laws, will never be implemented.

Nothing wrong with it. Voters will vote for a person they can trust, crediblity is huge in any election. Voters along with policies want to know what the candidates moral views are etc. Even if Pakistan was secular the majority of voters would still vote for a Muslim because to this day no candidate standing for office has been an athiest.

 

[WC-Passion]

There's nothing politically advanced about any of these three countries. Most of the general public will be naive and ill-informed if they get filled with bits and pieces of information that don't tell the whole story. In all honesty the education systems need to improve and [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] basically set out what should be done.

 

[Robert]

No need as both Trump and Clinton are not much different.

Tony Blair helped killed hundreds of his own troops by illegaling invading Iraq. Brown sold off UK's Gold when he knew it was about to increase in price. Obama was a just a good actor, more black people are being shot by police than ever before. I could list many things. They all work for Lobbys not for the people.

Sure Imran rose to fame due to cricket but again he wasn't elected many times, so him becoming PM wasn't because of his fame.

Do you really believe the likes of Boris and Trump are anywhere near the level of Imran when it comes to being a leader and a leader who is open, transparant? He has done more in one year for Pakistan than all the UK, US leaders have done in the past decade.

You really are determined to see a half empty glass!

Blair also lifted millions out of poverty, rejuvenated the NHS and education after eighteen years of underfunding, introduced civil partnerships, introduced the Human Rights Act, made humanitarian interventions in Kosovo and Sierra Leone, and negotiated peace in NI.

Brown created the blueprint for the bank bailout which was copied by the G20 and saved the world from a second Great Depression.

Obama got the US out of two wars, oversaw the fastest recovery of any nation from the 2008 crash and extended free health care over another 10% of the population, cutting those with no cover from 15% to 5%, and rehabilitated his country in the eyes of the world after the corrosive Bush era. He is in the top ten Presidents.

As you know I think Trump is dreadful and Johnson not much better so please don’t ask me to make egregious comparisons with Imran who appears to be doing a decent job.

 

[ahsan17]

Maybe I was slightly incorrect about Mian's situation, but there's no denying that he faced discrimination and was made to step down because of his faith. That would never happen in the West. Omar (I don't know who Tlaib is) is a congresswoman and she won't be discharged because of her faith, stop using false equivalences.

The equivalence argument was valid, because your initial argument was about Atif Mian having to step down due to death threats, not about him having to step down because of his faith. Ilhan Omar and Rashida Tlaib have been targeted with death threats - the same argument you were using initially vis-a-vis Atif Mian.

 

[Technics 1210]

The reason for me bringing secularism in is because most Pakistanis, no matter how 'politically knowledgeable', will not vote for someone who isn't Muslim. That in itself shows how secularsim is superior, because in societies where there is genuine separation between religion and state, a person's religion won't be a factor. Also, it makes sure ridiculous things, such as blasphemy laws, will never be implemented.

Take a break. Go look up how many USA Presidents were practicing Christians, and made clear they were during campaigns, and check UK PMs too. As much as you would like to think religion doesn't play a role in Western politics, it very much does.

 

[aqeelPK]

Pakistanis always believed a messiah can end all of their miseries, always believed in false promises, always elected lotaas, always eaten by propaganda machinery, majority never participated in voting yet they are far more politically advanced over westerners. lol

 

[shaykh]

When you feel politics directly effects you then you are politically aware.

My Venezuelan and Brazilian students are extremely aware cos they feel their country is a disaster.. One of my friends whos Brazilian was telling me about how a drivers strike meant she couldn't open her restaurant for a few days...

My Venezuelan students have opinions on everyone in their politics

British ppl for the most part are apathetic...uninvolved in politics cos they don't feel it has such an effect on their day to day .

Other Northern Europeans are quite apolitical too ...

 

[Tubs]

Take a break. Go look up how many USA Presidents were practicing Christians, and made clear they were during campaigns, and check UK PMs too. As much as you would like to think religion doesn't play a role in Western politics, it very much does.

We all know that Christianity has been diluted so much in the US and UK. If the same happened to Islam, I would be very happy. There is a more fundamental approach to religion in Pakistan, and the fact that it's so closely intertwined with politics is not a good thing. Killing someone for rude towards a religious figure is not a sign of a 'politically advanced' society. If you made fun of Jesus in the US, nothing would happen. I also never said that the US or UK leaders haven't been practicing Christians, but there is no religious obligation to enter those posts.

 

[Robert]

Take a break. Go look up how many USA Presidents were practicing Christians, and made clear they were during campaigns, and check UK PMs too. As much as you would like to think religion doesn't play a role in Western politics, it very much does.

And there are clerics in the British Government. The 26 Lords Spiritual.