Pakistan's ODI record against top 5 teams in Misbah/Waqar era (2011-16) vs Mickey Arthur era (16-19)

[HappyWarsFan]

There are many people who say Mickey Arthur was a "brilliant" ODI coach and improved our white ball cricket by investing in youngsters yada yada... But here are the cold, hard facts.


As you can see, while both records vs Top 5 teams are poor, Pakistan still was a fair amount better during the Misbah / Waqar era, which I have considered from 2010/11 around up until around 2015/16, where either one, or both, of Misbah and Waqar were in charge of the team.

If we compare this to the Mickey Arthur/Inzi time, which I've considered since around March 2016, we have quite a lot worse record. So why are people on PP acting like Misbah is the devil of ODI cricket when he tended to actually do better than the useless Mickey and Sarfraz combo, which were good at minnow bashing, but had quite poorer results against top opposition. The stats show this.
[MENTION=142432]Titan24[/MENTION]

 

[Junaids]

Because half of Mickey’s period was ruined by having to wait for Misbah to retire before he could put his own stamp on the team.

 

[Danyaalr01]

There are many people who say Mickey Arthur was a "brilliant" ODI coach and improved our white ball cricket by investing in youngsters yada yada... But here are the cold, hard facts.
View attachment 96752View attachment 96753

As you can see, while both records vs Top 5 teams are poor, Pakistan still was a fair amount better during the Misbah / Waqar era, which I have considered from 2010/11 around up until around 2015/16, where either one, or both, of Misbah and Waqar were in charge of the team.

If we compare this to the Mickey Arthur/Inzi time, which I've considered since around March 2016, we have quite a lot worse record. So why are people on PP acting like Misbah is the devil of ODI cricket when he tended to actually do better than the useless Mickey and Sarfraz combo, which were good at minnow bashing, but had quite poorer results against top opposition. The stats show this.

[MENTION=142432]Titan24[/MENTION]

It's funny how you so conveniently added the 2011 world cup into the Misbah stats.

 

[Danyaalr01]

[MENTION=148759]HappyWarsFan[/MENTION] Here are the real stats. Misbah's captaincy vs Mickey's coaching. You very conveniently added the 2011 WC to Misbah's record.

 

[HappyWarsFan]

It's funny how you so conveniently added the 2011 world cup into the Misbah stats.

2011 WC only gives 1 extra top 5 win - against Australia.

 

[HappyWarsFan]

[MENTION=148759]HappyWarsFan[/MENTION] Here are the real stats. Misbah's captaincy vs Mickey's coaching. You very conveniently added the 2011 WC to Misbah's record.

View attachment 96757View attachment 96758

Lol even by this metric Misbah is a decent amount better.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Lol even by this metric Misbah is a decent amount better.

Pakistan's record under Misbah is inflated thanks to chuckers like hafeez and ajmal exerting control in the middle overs. Post that , misbah had a record of something like 3 wins and 11 losses against the likes of NZ, OZ,India ,WI,SA in the 2014-15 period.

 

[Danyaalr01]

Pakistan's record under Misbah is inflated thanks to chuckers like hafeez and ajmal exerting control in the middle overs. Post that , misbah had a record of something like 3 wins and 11 losses against the likes of NZ, OZ,India ,WI,SA in the 2014-15 period.

That's true. Ajmal and Hafeez were Misbah's most important assests with the ball. We missed them a lot in the 2015 world cup. The quicks that Misbah had were useless.

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

Losses under Mickey exagerrated because of a second string PAK losing 5 nil to the Aussies in UAE

 

[emranabbas]

So you are comparing captain Vs coach to defend misbah?

Even if you compare captain Vs captain misbah still isn't any better than sarfaraz

W/l ratio is the same safaraz has a better batting average

And if you had given sarfaraz an ajmal he would have been way ahead

So nothing special from misbah

Infact he tried playing for draws in odi that's the mentality he has

 

[JibranAnsari]

Nothing to do with any coaches , the world was leaping ahead in that time whereas pakistani fans are still seeing rizwan's 31 off 33 a decent innings in a t20. Pakistan has failied to produce any all rounders in the last 10 years and thats hurting us big time. These days there are like only a couple of places for specialist bowlers and usually our last 4 are useless with the bat. Our number 4 and 5 have been way too slow for modern day cricket in the last 10 years and thats hurt us big time. Seniors are allowed a lot of failures whereas any aspiring youngsters is often kicked out after a a very few failures. As long as the bullish culture of "respecting" the "seniors"is there , pakistan cricket will never flourish.

Making azhar ali captain despite his failures with the bat in last 2 and a half year shows that the culture of nepotism and senior worshiping is still very much there.

 

[Danyaalr01]

Misbah and Mickey both have poor records. However, Mickey's efforts will show a few years from now. Mickey brought in young players and groomed them. Babar was groomed under Mickey. Haris was finally given a good chance under Mickey. Mickey brought in Shadab who is one for the future, he may not be great right now and has his moments. Mickey got rid of TTFs like Umar Akmal, Ahmed Shehzad, Muhammad Irfan, Rahat Ali and Wahab Riaz. Misbah brought these TTFs back.

During Misbah's captaincy he kept on bringing in TTFs or a bunch of useless players from domestic. Misbah never made a long term pick, as a captain he always went for very experienced domestic players who weren't necessarily good.

Mickey also was more impactful in ODIs. We won the CT17 and did better than what Misbah did in the 2015 WC. Misbah was terrible in the 2015 World Cup, we almost lost to Zimbabwe. Misbah kept Sarfaraz Ahmed out for half the World cup when he was clearly a superior keeper and batsman than Akmal at that time. He also blocked Haris's path because of Younis Khan. Misbah was terrible in the 2013 Champions trophy as well.

Yes Misbah had a better Win/loss ratio against top 5 teams, but he did really bad in tournaments.

Where are most of Misbah's selections now? Rotting in domestic or not even in domestic. The players Mickey brought in and groomed are playing for Pakistan right now and many of them are recognised well around the world, such as Babar, Shaheen, Shadab, Imad and Imam.

Ajmal was banned for chucking and no one outside Pakistan has a clue who Muhammad Talha, Asad Ali, Bilalwal Bhatti or Imran Khan Sr are. And everyone knows how mediocre Rahat Ali and Nasir Jamshed are/were. There are many players Misbah brought in who I don't even remember due to how bad they were. The only decent picks were Yasir Shah and Muhammad Abba (not sure about him either).

 

[emranabbas]

Misbah and Mickey both have poor records. However, Mickey's efforts will show a few years from now. Mickey brought in young players and groomed them. Babar was groomed under Mickey. Haris was finally given a good chance under Mickey. Mickey brought in Shadab who is one for the future, he may not be great right now and has his moments. Mickey got rid of TTFs like Umar Akmal, Ahmed Shehzad, Muhammad Irfan, Rahat Ali and Wahab Riaz. Misbah brought these TTFs back.

During Misbah's captaincy he kept on bringing in TTFs or a bunch of useless players from domestic. Misbah never made a long term pick, as a captain he always went for very experienced domestic players who weren't necessarily good.

Mickey also was more impactful in ODIs. We won the CT17 and did better than what Misbah did in the 2015 WC. Misbah was terrible in the 2015 World Cup, we almost lost to Zimbabwe. Misbah kept Sarfaraz Ahmed out for half the World cup when he was clearly a superior keeper and batsman than Akmal at that time. He also blocked Haris's path because of Younis Khan. Misbah was terrible in the 2013 Champions trophy as well.

Yes Misbah had a better Win/loss ratio against top 5 teams, but he did really bad in tournaments.

Where are most of Misbah's selections now? Rotting in domestic or not even in domestic. The players Mickey brought in and groomed are playing for Pakistan right now and many of them are recognised well around the world, such as Babar, Shaheen, Shadab, Imad and Imam.

Ajmal was banned for chucking and no one outside Pakistan has a clue who Muhammad Talha, Asad Ali, Bilalwal Bhatti or Imran Khan Sr are. And everyone knows how mediocre Rahat Ali and Nasir Jamshed are/were. There are many players Misbah brought in who I don't even remember due to how bad they were. The only decent picks were Yasir Shah and Muhammad Abba (not sure about him either).

Misbah does not have a better win loss ratio
Op stats are flawed

He's comparing captain Vs coach

Real comparison would be captain Vs captain and sarfaraz is on par with win loss ratio

So this thread is pointless

 

[Danyaalr01]

Misbah does not have a better win loss ratio
Op stats are flawed

He's comparing captain Vs coach

Real comparison would be captain Vs captain and sarfaraz is on par with win loss ratio

So this thread is pointless

True, Sarfaraz didn't captain against Australia this year.

He's trying his hardest to defame Mickey Arthur, but it's the wider picture that matters. Misbah worshippers are to narrow minded to understand what Mickey did for Pak cricket. He brought us out of an era of seniority, and we are now creeping back into it under Misbah.

 

[Markhor]

Under Waqar we were tottering at 9th and 7th in the ODI and T20 rankings, had a dismal 2015 World Cup and crashed out of the group stage of the 2016 WT20. We also received a Banglawash for first time in our history ! How anyone can whitewash that era is beyond me.

Meanwhile under Mickey we went from 9th in ODI rankings struggling to even qualify for 2019 World Cup, to finishing 5th place in the World Cup losing out to NZ only on NRR, and won our first global 50 over trophy since 1992.

He also successfully integrated a whole host of youngsters and kicked out much of the deadwood.

We improved in every metric in ODI and T20 cricket. This is our record vs the teams that participated in the 2019 WC:

Mickey:



Waqar:

 

[Titan24]

Good thread and pretty enlightening stats showing the performance against top teams in the last decade. For people who hype the jump from no 8 to no 6 in ODI rankings by beating WI, Srl and Zimbabwe should realize that Pak was mostly at no 6 during 2010-15 as well and that 8th ranking only came in the picture when Pak lost to BD in 2015.

On top of that Pakistan was able to beat NZ in 2010-11 series in ODIs, India in 2012 and SA (First time ever) in ODI series in 2013.

While in no way Waqar or Misbah's eras were memorable for LOIs but still there were bilateral wins in ODIs against top teams. Sarfaraz's and Mickey's era is hyped without any actual material results. It still surprises me how can people defend Mickey and Sarfaraz when we lost every single thing except CT 17, 1-0 test win over Aus, T20 success and wins over Srl, WI and Zim.

If people really find Mickey's and Sarfaraz tenure a success than I will have to say that our standards have really become too low.

Also how cant people see a blatant fact that 2010-2016 was the worst era in terms of talent production. Post that not only quite a few young cricketers came in PSL inaugurated and thus giving oppurtunity for the team management to see and select young players. Mickey rarely saw any domestic tournumnet of Pakistan which can be proved by the fact that Abbas, Faheem, and Imam were only selections outside of PSL in LOIs. What intrigues me is that if there would have been no PSL then which players would Mickey have selected.

Posters relate Babar Azam (Who debuted under Waqar), Shaheen, Shadab, Hasnain, Hassan, Fakhar, Sharjeel etc. to Mickey Arther without realizing that he handpicked none of these players and they all emerged through PSL.

 

[Titan24]

Again, not a fan of Waqar or Misbah's LOI tenure but Mickey and Sarfaraz's tenure with much better players at disposal isnt what it is hyped to be except in T20s.

 

[Slim]

Pakistan played a second string team against Australia in UAE. Its well known. I dont know why its ignored again and again?

 

[topspin]

Good thread and pretty enlightening stats showing the performance against top teams in the last decade. For people who hype the jump from no 8 to no 6 in ODI rankings by beating WI, Srl and Zimbabwe should realize that Pak was mostly at no 6 during 2010-15 as well and that 8th ranking only came in the picture when Pak lost to BD in 2015.

On top of that Pakistan was able to beat NZ in 2010-11 series in ODIs, India in 2012 and SA (First time ever) in ODI series in 2013.

While in no way Waqar or Misbah's eras were memorable for LOIs but still there were bilateral wins in ODIs against top teams. Sarfaraz's and Mickey's era is hyped without any actual material results. It still surprises me how can people defend Mickey and Sarfaraz when we lost every single thing except CT 17, 1-0 test win over Aus, T20 success and wins over Srl, WI and Zim.

If people really find Mickey's and Sarfaraz tenure a success than I will have to say that our standards have really become too low.

Also how cant people see a blatant fact that 2010-2016 was the worst era in terms of talent production. Post that not only quite a few young cricketers came in PSL inaugurated and thus giving oppurtunity for the team management to see and select young players. Mickey rarely saw any domestic tournumnet of Pakistan which can be proved by the fact that Abbas, Faheem, and Imam were only selections outside of PSL in LOIs. What intrigues me is that if there would have been no PSL then which players would Mickey have selected.

Posters relate Babar Azam (Who debuted under Waqar), Shaheen, Shadab, Hasnain, Hassan, Fakhar, Sharjeel etc. to Mickey Arther without realizing that he handpicked none of these players and they all emerged through PSL.

No doubt these are high profile wins but only at face value. Stats without context can paint something very misleading, so lets break down each series.

Firstly, that NZ team (2010/11) wasn't even half as good as the one we've seen in the latter half of the 2010s, who went on to make the last 2 WC finals.

The India win in 2012 was only a big deal for the green tinted hype brigade because if you look back at that, the Indian batsmen were on their last legs. We played them at the right time in low scoring conditions, so that negated Pakistan's weak batting line-up. Misbah's Pakistan team got a battering by India the following year in the CT. From there they went on to lift the trophy, which further proves how insignificant the outcome of the 2012 series really was.

We fluked that 3 match series against SA. If you cast your mind back to the second ODI, SA were tasked with 11 runs required off the last 2 overs but still somehow fell short (by 1 run). The series was largely irrelevant when you consider how they bowled Pakistan out for 167 in the 2013 CT to mark a victory by a substantial 67 runs. Not to forget SA had also beaten Pakistan in another ODI series played earlier in the year.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Misbah era was poor

Mickey Arthur was not great either. But he knew how to play to the fan galleries.

 

[HappyWarsFan]

No doubt these are high profile wins but only at face value. Stats without context can paint something very misleading, so lets break down each series.

Firstly, that NZ team (2010/11) wasn't even half as good as the one we've seen in the latter half of the 2010s, who went on to make the last 2 WC finals.

The India win in 2012 was only a big deal for the green tinted hype brigade because if you look back at that, the Indian batsmen were on their last legs. We played them at the right time in low scoring conditions, so that negated Pakistan's weak batting line-up. Misbah's Pakistan team got a battering by India the following year in the CT. From there they went on to lift the trophy, which further proves how insignificant the outcome of the 2012 series really was.

We fluked that 3 match series against SA. If you cast your mind back to the second ODI, SA were tasked with 11 runs required off the last 2 overs but still somehow fell short (by 1 run). The series was largely irrelevant when you consider how they bowled Pakistan out for 167 in the 2013 CT to mark a victory by a substantial 67 runs. Not to forget SA had also beaten Pakistan in another ODI series played earlier in the year.

The NZ in 10/11 was a good ODI side. In 2009-10, they also lost a very good Aus side 3-2 at home. In 2009, they drew 2-2 against Aus in AUS.

They made WC 2011 semis and had great players then too - Vettori, Taylor, Guptill, Ryder, Mills, Williamson, McCullum. Heck even Jacob Orsm was a very useful all rounder. So you can't just dismiss that series.

 

[HappyWarsFan]

Also, if we take away those 5 ODIs lost to Aus with the B team, we still get a record of 11/28 - which is STILL worse!!!

 

[Titan24]

No doubt these are high profile wins but only at face value. Stats without context can paint something very misleading, so lets break down each series.

Firstly, that NZ team (2010/11) wasn't even half as good as the one we've seen in the latter half of the 2010s, who went on to make the last 2 WC finals.

The India win in 2012 was only a big deal for the green tinted hype brigade because if you look back at that, the Indian batsmen were on their last legs. We played them at the right time in low scoring conditions, so that negated Pakistan's weak batting line-up. Misbah's Pakistan team got a battering by India the following year in the CT. From there they went on to lift the trophy, which further proves how insignificant the outcome of the 2012 series really was.

We fluked that 3 match series against SA. If you cast your mind back to the second ODI, SA were tasked with 11 runs required off the last 2 overs but still somehow fell short (by 1 run). The series was largely irrelevant when you consider how they bowled Pakistan out for 167 in the 2013 CT to mark a victory by a substantial 67 runs. Not to forget SA had also beaten Pakistan in another ODI series played earlier in the year.

So we couldnt fluke and we never faced a weak team under Sarfaraz and Mickey? I think SA team to which we lost 3-2 was pretty beatable along with Australian team even with us resting our players by which we got whitewashed earlier this year in UAE. And no way NZ in 2017 was such a super team to beat CT 17 champions 5-0. Eng annihilated us in ODI series before WC, they are definitely a good side and thats why they won the WC but Pak was really poor with no plan.

If we are taking into account other teams than why not take into account the players available to coaches and captain from 2010 to 2016? There is a big difference in that as well.

 

[Hawkeye]

Good facts here.

The Mickey Arthur brigade is here defending him even after getting a lesson on what the reality is. It's amazing to see how these people prefer a person over the team and actual wins.

Mickey Arthur destroyed our Test team. We forgot how to win. FACT.

We started losing even at home in Tests. FACT.

We went on one of our longest losing streak in ODIs. FACT.

We consistently lost to all the top teams. FACT.

He never played a proper spinner, stuck with pseudo-allrounders. FACT.

He preferred and backed seniors like Malik and Sarfraz. Even played Malik in World Cup XI. FACT.

Tactically, he was clueless and inept. FACT.

He was wonderful at playing to the gallery, use sweet words "We're a proud team and hate losing". FACT!

A dark era? Yes, certainly.

 

[topspin]

Whilst there is no doubt that the Win/Loss ratio against top teams is an important metric, there is however an important limitation in following this approach, when using it to compare two teams who played in different eras. It simply doesn't factor in the quality of the ODI cricket that was played during the two periods of the sport.

It's important to note ODI cricket has evolved very quickly in the last ten years, courtesy of t20 cricket which has led to better scoring rates. More favourable batting conditions has also played a part as well.

In ODIs, everyone knows the era played between 2015-2019 is far superior to the one that saw Misbah captain Pakistan in the first half of the 2010s.

Going by this fact, one would expect the Misbah/Waqar era to have have more success in ICC competitions, however it turns out the Mickey/Sarfraz era leave their predecessors well behind in this regard.

Misbah's side lost every game in the 2013 CT and it was by far the worst showing from a Pakistan team playing in an ICC tournament held in England.

In contrast to this performance four years later, Mickey/Sarfraz combo brought the trophy home. This was an achievement which was unthinkable at the time, as it was simply beyond Misbah's capabilities - these were the standards Pakistan fans (like myself had become accustomed too). Given that this tournament was also hosted in England, it further exposes the incompetence of Pakistan's current Head Coach and Chief Selector.

There is no doubt that Misbah's 2015 WC side also had a worse showing than the one led by Sarfraz earlier this year. The former only managed to beat one of the top five ODI sides whilst the latter picked up three wins including the two finalists and was perhaps unlucky not to reach the semi-finals, given that one would have expected Pakistan to have beaten Sri Lanka, if it wasn't for rain.

Allah maaf kare if the PCB allows Misbah to retain his positions as Head Coach and Chief Selector going into the 2023 World Cup.

 

[Hawkeye]

Not to forget, we became the first Asian team to win in South Africa under Misbah. Nobody from Asia has done it!

Won the Asia Cup.

Became freaking #1 in Tests.

Made ourselves a force to be reckoned with. At least made our home a fortress.

Mickey made us a joke in the cricket world. We forgot how to win Test matches, even at home. Longest ODI losing streak under him. CT was a fluke - we showed our true colors in the World Cup.

How we started against West Indies, even associate nations would have done better. That was basically Mickey Arthur summed up.

Were we ever a great team? No, not under any of the two, and not even in Wasim/Waqar era decades ago.

 

[Titan24]

The thing many people dont take into account is the players available between 2010-16 and 2016 onward.

If players available arent considered than Johan Bucanan for Aus vs Mickey Arther and Miandad, Intikhab Alam for Pak vs Mickey and Waqar will look like legendary coaches.

Post Asif, Amir and Butt debacle in 2010 we didnt have as many decent players coming in as we have today.

one will be surprised to see the team of Pakistan even in the series we won in India 2012 and SA 2013. We actually had pretty poor resources in that era and thus reflected in performance. Many might not agree but other than absensce of Younus and Misbah in tests and Saeed Ajmal we have a lot more batting and bowling talent across the formats. I though we could have done better in last 2 years with the the resources we have.

 

[Mamoon]

Pakistan played a second string team against Australia in UAE. Its well known. I dont know why its ignored again and again?

It is not ignored because it doesn’t mean anything. You can’t use that excuse when the so-called first team is crap as well, and besides, some of the replacements were actually improvements.

Rizwan is better than Sarfraz and he ended up scoring two hundreds. Sarfraz would have certainly scored less runs had he played instead.

Masood and Abid played over Fakhar, and the latter scored a hundred. Considering Fakhar’s streaky form, he wouldn’t have done better than that if not worse.

Umar over Hafeez is not an improvement, but then again, people think Hafeez isn’t good enough and should be forced into retirement.

Junaid and Abbas played instead of Hasan Ali, but he has forgotten how to bowl ever since he got smashed by Rohit and Dhawan in the Asia Cup after he ran his mouth and acted like an idiot at the border. He clearly wasn’t missed.

Yasir is inferior to Shadab in ODIs, but that doesn’t mean much. Shadab himself is massively overrated and has an ordinary record against the top sides.

The biggest miss was obviously Babar. However, I really don’t think he was the difference between winning the series and getting whitewashed.

We also need to take into consideration that Australia were without Warner, Smith and Starc, so the justification that we were playing our second string has no credibility and is simply an excuse for our humiliation.

We are just not good enough to win a series against the top sides no matter which squad we pick. We don’t have the talent or the mentality to perform consistently over the course of a series.

Playing Babar and the so-called first choice players like Sarfraz, Hafeez, Fakhar, Shadab and Hasan wouldn’t have changed the outcome of the series. Maybe it would have been 4-1 instead of 5-0, and it is not something to celebrate.

 

[Mamoon]

Pakistan did not improve under Mickey in ODIs and the T20 drama is highly misleading as well.

Had we played India during our so-called golden run, they would have handed us a reality check like they did in the Asia Cup in ODIs.

Nevertheless, Misbah was a dreadful ODI captain and he still doesn’t understand Limited Overs cricket.

 

[Danyaalr01]

The NZ in 10/11 was a good ODI side. In 2009-10, they also lost a very good Aus side 3-2 at home. In 2009, they drew 2-2 against Aus in AUS.

They made WC 2011 semis and had great players then too - Vettori, Taylor, Guptill, Ryder, Mills, Williamson, McCullum. Heck even Jacob Orsm was a very useful all rounder. So you can't just dismiss that series.

You must be joking. Look at the names in that team. Everyone in NZ realises that was a horrible team.

 

[Shazzam]

Good thread lets compare them Coach vs Couch. So far Misbah has done a phenomenal job in getting us whitewashed by Sri-Lanka C team in twenty20. His start as a coach could not have started any better. This result is every coaches dream. He has won us our ODI series against that same team. Thats inspirational cause we with our best team found it hard to tussle the giants known as the Sri-Lankan youngsters. As you know no team should be taken lightly in international cricket. In this Australian tour Misbah’s team planned the result well in the first twenty20 down under. They brought out a running giant to shack the ground so hard that the maker had to send rain to stop the carnage. We are in for a treat! Misbah the savior will guide us to our first series win against Australia in who knows how many years. I will always believe in Misbah!

 

[Nasty Naz]

One great thing Mickey did was discarding overrated players who continuously disappointed like Shehzad/Akmal/Irfan.

His biggest weakness was not recognizing how poor Hafeez/Malik are outside Asia and it seemed like spinners weren't as important during this time with the team often opting for a pace heavy attack, even in UAE. They did it in Tests too and it was a complete disaster.

I think its important to recognize that young players did come up under Mickey such as Babar/Fakhar/Shadab/Hasan/Shaheen/Imam etc. who are gong to be mainstays in Pakistan for a long time. The main core of this team is also pretty young without that much International experience so the core still does have a chance to develop a lot more.

 

[iniqbal223]

I am seeing lot of arguments between Misbah's supporters and Arthur's fans. Here is my analysis without bias :

1) Its hard to digest people still support Misbah after what he has done recently. If he can play Irfan who was huffing, puffing, and talented ones who failed miserably, that means he has poor lack of knowledge as Chief Selector. Now he was not able to get any output from them, is an evidence that he is not a good coach either. The people who think Umar Akmal, Shehzad, etc. are still talented, should go and check India also had line of mediocre players like Manoj Prabhakar, Raju, Prasad, Mongia, etc. in their darkest eras who's just played 100s of games and you still can't remember any good games they won for the team.

And Misbah the legend going back to these options is incomprehensible given he has given all powers. You can argue, many times Mickey did not get what he wanted in the team because different person being selector.

2) Misbah played or captained almost his entire career in Abu Dhabi/UAE. When he himself went to South Africa and Australia, his own record is abysmal. Ajmal's chucking helped him a lot. You can say he won the games in SA, India and Asia Cup 2012. Then to remind every one , coach was Dav Whatmore, not Waqar Younis. Similarly , in 2016, when Mr. best captain went to England, then Mickey was coach not Waqar Younis. So, if someone is criticizing Mickey for not giving any result, they should check records properly. People say Mickey lost to SL in UAE, I think losing in front of home crowd by SL C team is far worse. And believe me , there is no guarantee we will win something in UAE too.

3) Records of coach captain-combination : I will take major series, and where it played
Misbah's +
===========
England Test in UAE 2012 : Misbah - Mohsin
Pak tour India ODI 2012-2013 : Misbah - Whatmore
Pak tour SA ODI 2013 : Misbah - Whatmore
Asia Cup 2012 : Misbah - Whatmore
Pak tour England 2016 : Misbah - Mickey
Aus tour UAE 2014 : Misbah - Waqar

Sarfaraz +
===============
CT 2017 : Sarfaraz - Mickey
Pak tour of England 2018 : Sarfaraz Mickey
Australia T20 tri series : Sarfaraz Mickey

4) Where I give Mickey benefit of doubt :
When he joined in 2016 Pakistan started playing continuously from England series to WI series to NZ to Aus. and if Misbah was so great, he could have done something in Australia & NZ test series in 2017.

Secondly, Mickey had to fight a lot to keep under-performers outside the team. Prime example UA, Shehzad, he also dropped Hafeez as well. Their record was far worse than Sarfaraz during whatever games they played

Involvement of Inzamam during WC 2019.

What you expect coach to do when your senior most batsmen throw their wickets and match against NZ and SA in tests? And we made him a captain of test team instead of dropping him. In any other country after that performance, players are not recalled. With Mickey, many matches we lost we could have won. In Misbah's era we played so pathetically that without the start of second innings we would have known team has lost already.


5) Where Mickey failed : 1) Keeping mediocre performing Sarf in team. 2) Over relying on Faheem Ashraf. I think he badly wanted him to become Klusner. But it is joke now. 3) Considering spinners as second fiddle role.


In conclusion : Its hard to change the mindset & work ethics of individuals. If we say, Mickey will do the same that he won't play proper spinners in future, same applies too Misbah. Nothing against Misbah, but he was not fit for captaincy role even in 2010.

 

[iniqbal223]

Not to forget, we became the first Asian team to win in South Africa under Misbah. Nobody from Asia has done it!

Won the Asia Cup.

Became freaking #1 in Tests.

Made ourselves a force to be reckoned with. At least made our home a fortress.

Mickey made us a joke in the cricket world. We forgot how to win Test matches, even at home. Longest ODI losing streak under him. CT was a fluke - we showed our true colors in the World Cup.

How we started against West Indies, even associate nations would have done better. That was basically Mickey Arthur summed up.

Were we ever a great team? No, not under any of the two, and not even in Wasim/Waqar era decades ago.

Seems like a Misbah's account

Mickey was also part of that drawn England series which you are attributing totally to Misbah. Had that not drawn, we never reached #1.

Misbah's success as a captain was on chucking genius Saeed Ajmal on UAE, brilliance of Younis Khan, and some match winning performances from Afridi as well. So in his 4.5 years of career as a captain Mr. Misbah only managed to win one series against SA outside Asia. What about the pathetic performance as captain of CT 2013, WC 2015, SA test tour 2013 (where team was beaten left right and corner, getting All out in 40s), where was Misbah's genius in Australian tour in 2017 where he managed 70 odd runs in 6 innings, losing a test match to Zimbabwe?

You are saying as if Misbah has won us many world cups/champions trophies.

And how we started against SL C team ? Misbah with all the powers made a mockery in front of home crowd

 

[iniqbal223]

so Mr. Misbah was captain for 6 years , played entire career in slow uae or asian wickets and traveled outside Asia in below order. Amazing luck :

South Africa 2013
England 2016
New Zealand 2017
Australia 2017

 

[Danyaalr01]

Became freaking #1 in Tests.



Mickey made us a joke in the cricket world. We forgot how to win Test matches, even at home. Longest ODI losing streak under him. CT was a fluke - we showed our true colors in the World Cup.

How we started against West Indies, even associate nations would have done better. That was basically Mickey Arthur summed up.
ago.

Hmmmmmm, I wonder who was the coach during that England series.

You must be foreggting the 2015WC match against the Windies. Typical you, selectively pointing out things to make Misbah look good. Misbah obviously did wonders for us in the 2015 WC and 2013 WC. Mickey might not have been good, but Misbah's era will always be seen as the time when our cricket was the worst to watch, not a single exciting young fasts bowler or batsman played during his time. The youngsters only started coming in when Mickey became coach.

 

[Boiz Played Well]

Good facts here.

The Mickey Arthur brigade is here defending him even after getting a lesson on what the reality is. It's amazing to see how these people prefer a person over the team and actual wins.

Mickey Arthur destroyed our Test team. We forgot how to win. FACT.

We started losing even at home in Tests. FACT.

We went on one of our longest losing streak in ODIs. FACT.

We consistently lost to all the top teams. FACT.

He never played a proper spinner, stuck with pseudo-allrounders. FACT.

He preferred and backed seniors like Malik and Sarfraz. Even played Malik in World Cup XI. FACT.

Tactically, he was clueless and inept. FACT.

He was wonderful at playing to the gallery, use sweet words "We're a proud team and hate losing". FACT!

A dark era? Yes, certainly.

I mean shouting FACT after everything you say doesn't make it so. Pakistan's test team was never great so laying it all at Mickey's door is a bit over the top. It just had a brief resurgence much like the one our T20 team is almost done having. It was already starting to do badly towards the end of Misbah's tenure.

 

[Danyaalr01]

Good facts here.

The Mickey Arthur brigade is here defending him even after getting a lesson on what the reality is. It's amazing to see how these people prefer a person over the team and actual wins.

Mickey Arthur destroyed our Test team. We forgot how to win. FACT.

We started losing even at home in Tests. FACT.

We went on one of our longest losing streak in ODIs. FACT.

We consistently lost to all the top teams. FACT.

He never played a proper spinner, stuck with pseudo-allrounders. FACT.

He preferred and backed seniors like Malik and Sarfraz. Even played Malik in World Cup XI. FACT.

Tactically, he was clueless and inept. FACT.

He was wonderful at playing to the gallery, use sweet words "We're a proud team and hate losing". FACT!

A dark era? Yes, certainly.

How many young players did Misbah bring in during his captaincy who were decent and might have a future.

You're saying Mickey stuck with seniors, then who are Irfan, Wahab, Imran Khan Sr, Iftikhar, Umar Akmal, Shehzad. Are these guys young? You're just embarassing yourself now, better stop before it gets worse.

 

[Slim]

I am seeing lot of arguments between Misbah's supporters and Arthur's fans. Here is my analysis without bias :

1) Its hard to digest people still support Misbah after what he has done recently. If he can play Irfan who was huffing, puffing, and talented ones who failed miserably, that means he has poor lack of knowledge as Chief Selector. Now he was not able to get any output from them, is an evidence that he is not a good coach either. The people who think Umar Akmal, Shehzad, etc. are still talented, should go and check India also had line of mediocre players like Manoj Prabhakar, Raju, Prasad, Mongia, etc. in their darkest eras who's just played 100s of games and you still can't remember any good games they won for the team.

And Misbah the legend going back to these options is incomprehensible given he has given all powers. You can argue, many times Mickey did not get what he wanted in the team because different person being selector.

2) Misbah played or captained almost his entire career in Abu Dhabi/UAE. When he himself went to South Africa and Australia, his own record is abysmal. Ajmal's chucking helped him a lot. You can say he won the games in SA, India and Asia Cup 2012. Then to remind every one , coach was Dav Whatmore, not Waqar Younis. Similarly , in 2016, when Mr. best captain went to England, then Mickey was coach not Waqar Younis. So, if someone is criticizing Mickey for not giving any result, they should check records properly. People say Mickey lost to SL in UAE, I think losing in front of home crowd by SL C team is far worse. And believe me , there is no guarantee we will win something in UAE too.

3) Records of coach captain-combination : I will take major series, and where it played
Misbah's +
===========
England Test in UAE 2012 : Misbah - Mohsin
Pak tour India ODI 2012-2013 : Misbah - Whatmore
Pak tour SA ODI 2013 : Misbah - Whatmore
Asia Cup 2012 : Misbah - Whatmore
Pak tour England 2016 : Misbah - Mickey
Aus tour UAE 2014 : Misbah - Waqar

Sarfaraz +
===============
CT 2017 : Sarfaraz - Mickey
Pak tour of England 2018 : Sarfaraz Mickey
Australia T20 tri series : Sarfaraz Mickey

4) Where I give Mickey benefit of doubt :
When he joined in 2016 Pakistan started playing continuously from England series to WI series to NZ to Aus. and if Misbah was so great, he could have done something in Australia & NZ test series in 2017.

Secondly, Mickey had to fight a lot to keep under-performers outside the team. Prime example UA, Shehzad, he also dropped Hafeez as well. Their record was far worse than Sarfaraz during whatever games they played

Involvement of Inzamam during WC 2019.

What you expect coach to do when your senior most batsmen throw their wickets and match against NZ and SA in tests? And we made him a captain of test team instead of dropping him. In any other country after that performance, players are not recalled. With Mickey, many matches we lost we could have won. In Misbah's era we played so pathetically that without the start of second innings we would have known team has lost already.


5) Where Mickey failed : 1) Keeping mediocre performing Sarf in team. 2) Over relying on Faheem Ashraf. I think he badly wanted him to become Klusner. But it is joke now. 3) Considering spinners as second fiddle role.


In conclusion : Its hard to change the mindset & work ethics of individuals. If we say, Mickey will do the same that he won't play proper spinners in future, same applies too Misbah. Nothing against Misbah, but he was not fit for captaincy role even in 2010.

I nominate this post for POTW.

 

[iniqbal223]

How many young players did Misbah bring in during his captaincy who were decent and might have a future.

You're saying Mickey stuck with seniors, then who are Irfan, Wahab, Imran Khan Sr, Iftikhar, Umar Akmal, Shehzad. Are these guys young? You're just embarassing yourself now, better stop before it gets worse.

Whatever this person said FACT, is not FACT. Same biased subjective answers and put the word FACT at the end.

 

[iniqbal223]

I am not Misbah hater , neither I am Arthur's fan. But, let's see everything in context , why Mickey Arthur would have worked better than Misbah.

When we demanded head of Arthur/Inzi few months back, it was to get some one better than them (may be Andy Flower, etc), not old tried and tested Waqar Younis, and in-experienced Misbah. And in current scenario, it shows how Misbah is failing. This is just a start, things will get worse. Generally, in Pakistan set up whether some one is coach /captain/player, they start brightly and then decline rapidly (Has happened in 90% of cases). Here, with Misbah being clueless + failed captain like Azhar Ali + inexperienced Babar + Power hungry Waqar Younis, frankly, speaking I do not expect any good results. People keep shouting about UAE/Abu Dhabi, I don't think we can even win anything substantial there.

To win in UAE , you need batsmen who can bat longer, you need 2 frontline spinners. Pakistan does not have any. The experienced duo of Azhar and Asad are technically and mentally deficient. You can not expect them to win games from difficult situations. + this time Misbah do not have Saeed Ajmal, Younis Khan, Abdur Rehman, Sarfaraz Ahmed of 2014-15, Yasir of 2014. And knowing that you don't have resources, you go back to failures rather than finding some one. Thats pretty lazy from Chief Selector.

Now, lets dig in why I admired Arthur's approach over Misbah :

1) Fitness : Almost 0 zero tolerance. Yes there were some cases like Sarf
2) Leadership to youngsters : Giving free license to youngsters to go and play their natural game. Emergence of many youngsters.
3) Many close games : Below are close games that we lost because of our so called seniors. I took pride even then , when we showed fighting spirit
Brisbane Test
NZ Test (could have gone for draw)
2 ODIs vs Australia
2 ODIS vs South Africa
1 ODI vs England

 

[waleed88]

There are many people who say Mickey Arthur was a "brilliant" ODI coach and improved our white ball cricket by investing in youngsters yada yada... But here are the cold, hard facts.
View attachment 96752View attachment 96753

As you can see, while both records vs Top 5 teams are poor, Pakistan still was a fair amount better during the Misbah / Waqar era, which I have considered from 2010/11 around up until around 2015/16, where either one, or both, of Misbah and Waqar were in charge of the team.

If we compare this to the Mickey Arthur/Inzi time, which I've considered since around March 2016, we have quite a lot worse record. So why are people on PP acting like Misbah is the devil of ODI cricket when he tended to actually do better than the useless Mickey and Sarfraz combo, which were good at minnow bashing, but had quite poorer results against top opposition. The stats show this.

[MENTION=142432]Titan24[/MENTION]

Misbah Waqar era started from 2014 an lasted only 2 years. Before that Whatmore was the coach. And in between that we had Mohsin Khan, Moin Khan etc etc.

 

[coy0607]

are you going to totally overlook performances in big tournaments? How about what Mickey/Sarfraz did in the CT and WC, and compare that to what Misbah delivered in big tournaments

Just looking at win-losses is was to over simplistic and really shows nothing

 

[Savak]

I am no ******** fan but those cheer leading for Mickey need to understand we lost 15 consecutive games on the Trott under him, had a Pakistani coach shown the same performance he would have been shown the door a long time ago. Secondly Mickey had his biases and favoritism, his fitness crusade was contradictory given how wholeheartedly he accepted Sarfaraz and Imad in the team

 

[Titan24]

are you going to totally overlook performances in big tournaments? How about what Mickey/Sarfraz did in the CT and WC, and compare that to what Misbah delivered in big tournaments

Just looking at win-losses is was to over simplistic and really shows nothing

One cant ignore the difference in the players available to Misbah vs Mickey and Co. Not saying Misbah would have conquered the world in LOIs but still post 2016 due to number of natural factors as well as due to PSL quite a few young players came in.

I think its a factor which shouldnt be ignored when judging captains and coaches.

 

[coy0607]

One cant ignore the difference in the players available to Misbah vs Mickey and Co. Not saying Misbah would have conquered the world in LOIs but still post 2016 due to number of natural factors as well as due to PSL quite a few young players came in.

I think its a factor which shouldnt be ignored when judging captains and coaches.

PSL definitely played a major role in helping find young talent for Mickey/Inzamam/Sarfraz

But Misbah also clearly has an affinity for older and more experienced players, somewhat irrespective of performance. Just look at the 2 squad he's selected so far, bringing back Irfan, Shehzad, Akmal, and persisting with Wahab, Asif, etc

 

[hussain.r97]

Even if Misbah's record is slightly better, it's still very poor. What needs to be understood is that, even though Pakistan had poor results in both eras, Mickey was promoting youngsters while Misbah was achieving these same poor results with old and 'experienced' players. Youngsters generally improve over time, while old players generally deteriorate. Mickey Arthur was preparing a young team which would have starting showing results a little down the line, it's as simple as that.

 

[unemployedgm]

Both were pathetic.

 

[SarfiBabarHaris]

Can we please have stats for Misbah vs Mickey as coaches?

 

[Abdullah719]

Can we please have stats for Misbah vs Mickey as coaches?

T20Is

Mickey: 30 wins, 7 losses
Misbah: 0 wins, 5 losses

 

[aukhan]

Misbah and Waqar have destroyed this last decade. Ask any casual fan on the street and they will tell you the same. The dull brand of cricket team plays under them is painful to watch for fans.

 

[SarfiBabarHaris]

T20Is

Mickey: 30 wins, 7 losses
Misbah: 0 wins, 5 losses

Thanks.

All hail The King Misbah.

 

[Asif321]

can clearly see no passion no energy in team
micky's passion was enough to rejuvenate the team

as players say coaches at international level are not there to show how to hold bat but prepare you mentally