PDM has proven to be politically savvy and clever than PTI for the last 12 plus months?

[Savak]

IK has never been a politically smart or savy shattir chalak individual or deep strategic thinker. He is always someone who speaks from the heart and does whatever he feels is right but he is not someone who can play a proper chess match and come out victorious with strategy, planning or deep strategic thinking which is why he relied very heavily on his core PTI team.

On the other hand the PDM via Nawaz Sharif, Shahbaz Sharif, Asif Zardari, Bilawal, Maulan Diesel no matter how corrupt, rotten, murderous they might be, they have shown themselves to be 10 steps ahead of IK at every step of the way.

1) Successful Execution of the VONC in April 2022 and they made sure IK could do nothing to thwart it despite PTI and its leadership having all the state resources at its disposal and advance notice of the opposition's plans

2) They countered PTI's resignations in the national assembly and have halted by elections and have kept the national assembly proceedings going with Raja Riaz as the opposition leader

3) The PDM kept giving messages and feelers to IK that if he dissolved the Punjab and KPK assemblies, they would announce urgent elections. They ensured IK and PTI would fall into the trap thereby they would be able to install their own people in the caretaker setups and control the police in these provinces.

4) The PDM successfully countered the Supreme Court and Chief Justice Bandyal and ensured that he arrived at a point where he would be terrified of going against the PDM and is just waiting for his tenure to end.

5) The PDM managed to get the Army Chief of their liking who perhaps shared an even deeper hatred of IK and PTI then they did. IK via Arif Ali without thinking twice gave his consent to the appointment

6) In one big master stroke of the event May 9, 2023, PDM destroyed PTI and IK by making his senior leadership team wet their pants and succeeded in making them desert IK and therefore leaving PTI in tatters and dissaray. Asif Ali Zardari boasted to his PPP senior leadership in Karachi a few days in a private event that he has something special planned for PTI and he gave a guarantee that PTI will be in no position to fight the Provincial and National Elections in Oct 2023 and IK would become irrelevant, this was it.

IK over the period of the last 12 months has just been sinking in poor decision making and him and his senior leadership team who have proved to be kittens under pressure have suffered from incompetence and poor war gaming, prediction abilities.

Without the help of the military IK has been exposed to be a novice when it comes to politicking, strategy, negotiations, war gaming in politics.

 

[Sherazkhalid]

Maybe you have it all correct, bottom line is how does it matter to a common Pakistani? How does it help Pakistan image abroad, how does it help in making Pakistan prosper, if aim is to keep on looting Pakistan, than it doesn't matter if IK is novice and PDM are experts at politics.

 

[Kashmirilion]

There has been nothing politically savvy or clever about the pdm. It has been the worst coalition of parties to ever exist in world politics. They have been humiliated 100 times over. Imran khan pti have exposed them and the entire establishment like never before.. if you have all the state machinery/judiciary/institutions behind you it's obvious decisions will be made in favour of pdm. But they have been nothing short of a humiliating disaster and shabaz sharif has been the most embarrassing person to ever become a PM/leader of any country ever.

 

[MenInG]

IK has never been a politically smart or savy shattir chalak individual or deep strategic thinker. He is always someone who speaks from the heart and does whatever he feels is right but he is not someone who can play a proper chess match and come out victorious with strategy, planning or deep strategic thinking which is why he relied very heavily on his core PTI team.

On the other hand the PDM via Nawaz Sharif, Shahbaz Sharif, Asif Zardari, Bilawal, Maulan Diesel no matter how corrupt, rotten, murderous they might be, they have shown themselves to be 10 steps ahead of IK at every step of the way.

1) Successful Execution of the VONC in April 2022 and they made sure IK could do nothing to thwart it despite PTI and its leadership having all the state resources at its disposal and advance notice of the opposition's plans

2) They countered PTI's resignations in the national assembly and have halted by elections and have kept the national assembly proceedings going with Raja Riaz as the opposition leader

3) The PDM kept giving messages and feelers to IK that if he dissolved the Punjab and KPK assemblies, they would announce urgent elections. They ensured IK and PTI would fall into the trap thereby they would be able to install their own people in the caretaker setups and control the police in these provinces.

4) The PDM successfully countered the Supreme Court and Chief Justice Bandyal and ensured that he arrived at a point where he would be terrified of going against the PDM and is just waiting for his tenure to end.

5) The PDM managed to get the Army Chief of their liking who perhaps shared an even deeper hatred of IK and PTI then they did. IK via Arif Ali without thinking twice gave his consent to the appointment

6) In one big master stroke of the event May 9, 2023, PDM destroyed PTI and IK by making his senior leadership team wet their pants and succeeded in making them desert IK and therefore leaving PTI in tatters and dissaray. Asif Ali Zardari boasted to his PPP senior leadership in Karachi a few days in a private event that he has something special planned for PTI and he gave a guarantee that PTI will be in no position to fight the Provincial and National Elections in Oct 2023 and IK would become irrelevant, this was it.

IK over the period of the last 12 months has just been sinking in poor decision making and him and his senior leadership team who have proved to be kittens under pressure have suffered from incompetence and poor war gaming, prediction abilities.

Without the help of the military IK has been exposed to be a novice when it comes to politicking, strategy, negotiations, war gaming in politics.

You are confusing political savvy with thuggery - need to have a good look at the news reports.

 

[Savak]

There has been nothing politically savvy or clever about the pdm. It has been the worst coalition of parties to ever exist in world politics. They have been humiliated 100 times over. Imran khan pti have exposed them and the entire establishment like never before.. if you have all the state machinery/judiciary/institutions behind you it's obvious decisions will be made in favour of pdm. But they have been nothing short of a humiliating disaster and shabaz sharif has been the most embarrassing person to ever become a PM/leader of any country ever.

Lol. I have been hearing this word exposed my whole life as far as the status quo parties are concerned. The entire world knew about their realities. There was nothing to expose that was not known before about them.

The reality is that IK and the PTI has failed this contest against them in the end.

 

[Kashmirilion]

Lol. I have been hearing this word exposed my whole life as far as the status quo parties are concerned. The entire world knew about their realities. There was nothing to expose that was not known before about them.

The reality is that IK and the PTI has failed this contest against them in the end.

Do you not feel that the judiciary and all other state institutions have been made naked Infront of the world.like never before.

IK and PTI are not just a political party but and ideology like brother [MENTION=253]the Great Khan[/MENTION] said in another thread. If they have ended the ideology remains to be seen yet.

You sound like major Rana and other pdm fans now. Can you not see the seed that khan has sown in to the mind of the youngsters.


I feel khan has done his job and it's upto the upcoming generations to decide on their future...

The establishment can protect these corrupt parties and dynasties for so long eventually it will all come crashing down like a house of cards.

 

[JaDed]

I would say IK thought he was too smart to take on Establishment, his followers or advisers or his past experiences brought about this.

The rules were not fair and he knew this from 1990s but he got to experience first hand the Establishment’ power for and against.

 

[SM1989]

Do you not feel that the judiciary and all other state institutions have been made naked Infront of the world.like never before.

IK and PTI are not just a political party but and ideology like brother [MENTION=253]the Great Khan[/MENTION] said in another thread. If they have ended the ideology remains to be seen yet.

You sound like major Rana and other pdm fans now. Can you not see the seed that khan has sown in to the mind of the youngsters.


I feel khan has done his job and it's upto the upcoming generations to decide on their future...

The establishment can protect these corrupt parties and dynasties for so long eventually it will all come crashing down like a house of cards.

Not really. Everyone knew about the corruption of these parties and institutions. IK was pro establishment so long as they were backing him. He just couldn't digest them dumping him when he stepped out of line.

And no PTI is a fan club not an ideology. It has no future after Imran Khan. Its solely built on a cult of personality around him. It is the party of the oppressed class of gated communities as Nusrat Javed nicely put.

The state came down hard on them and they couldn't last 2 days in jail. Having concert filled jalsas and attracting burger crowds (who then ogle at female attendees) does not prepare a mass following that is willing to bear excessive hardship when the hammer comes down.

 

[wasim-fan]

Do you not feel that the judiciary and all other state institutions have been made naked Infront of the world.like never before.

IK and PTI are not just a political party but and ideology like brother [MENTION=253]the Great Khan[/MENTION] said in another thread. If they have ended the ideology remains to be seen yet.

You sound like major Rana and other pdm fans now. Can you not see the seed that khan has sown in to the mind of the youngsters.


I feel khan has done his job and it's upto the upcoming generations to decide on their future...

The establishment can protect these corrupt parties and dynasties for so long eventually it will all come crashing down like a house of cards.

What was PTI ideology ?

 

[The_Odd_One]

Imran was never meant to be a Prime minister. This is a harsh reality. After the humiliation of 2013 elections, Imran realized that he needed electables and support from the military to fulfill his dream. Even then, he was barely able to form a coalition government. He burned bridges with everyone and he did not want to work with anyone. due to which he was eventually and rightfully booted out. The fact of the matter is that people of Pakistan never gave Imran a clear majority like the way they bestowed it on PMLN and PPP in the past.

The upcoming elections was Imran's best chance to win a clear majority but due to his incompetent, he completely wasted it. Now, he's done and dusted.

 

[Major]

What was PTI ideology ?

you have asked a very tough question from him.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Full credit to the leaderships of PPP and PMLN who went through far worse times than PTI but their leaders did not abandon their parties.

 

[Major]

Imran was never meant to be a Prime minister. This is a harsh reality. After the humiliation of 2013 elections, Imran realized that he needed electables and support from the military to fulfill his dream. Even then, he was barely able to form a coalition government. He burned bridges with everyone and he did not want to work with anyone. due to which he was eventually and rightfully booted out. The fact of the matter is that people of Pakistan never gave Imran a clear majority like the way they bestowed it on PMLN and PPP in the past.

The upcoming elections was Imran's best chance to win a clear majority but due to his incompetent, he completely wasted it. Now, he's done and dusted.

Simple and well put. Had he not burned bridges, he would have had support today against the millitary. No party wants to join him because they know the guy doesnt know how to do politics.

He should had quietly sat in the opposition benches, but his ego got in his way

 

[wasim-fan]

Imran was never meant to be a Prime minister. This is a harsh reality. After the humiliation of 2013 elections, Imran realized that he needed electables and support from the military to fulfill his dream. Even then, he was barely able to form a coalition government. He burned bridges with everyone and he did not want to work with anyone. due to which he was eventually and rightfully booted out. The fact of the matter is that people of Pakistan never gave Imran a clear majority like the way they bestowed it on PMLN and PPP in the past.

The upcoming elections was Imran's best chance to win a clear majority but due to his incompetent, he completely wasted it. Now, he's done and dusted.

Well put. It was a golden opportunity lost. He went for sun. Unfortunately flat on his back. Down and out.

 

[wasim-fan]

Simple and well put. Had he not burned bridges, he would have had support today against the millitary. No party wants to join him because they know the guy doesnt know how to do politics.

He should had quietly sat in the opposition benches, but his ego got in his way

Atleast should not have pulled out from assemblies. Punjab and KPK govt under PTI would have made it more difficult for PDM. It was his ego and now that's all he has. Even not that perhaps.

 

[wasim-fan]

As a cricket captain, Imran was a gambler. He risked a lot to win. That was also his greatness. But politics is not cricket. Unfortunately he couldnt come out of his cricket eco system. Politics needs a different level of agility and intelligence.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Simple and well put. Had he not burned bridges, he would have had support today against the millitary. No party wants to join him because they know the guy doesnt know how to do politics.

He should had quietly sat in the opposition benches, but his ego got in his way

I forgot to mention that Imran's poor foreign policy also contributed to his downfall. For no good reason he ruined Pakistan's relationships with the US and Saudi Arabia, two countries which can heavily influence Pakistan's military establishment.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Well put. It was a golden opportunity lost. He went for sun. Unfortunately flat on his back. Down and out.

He could literally walk out quietly after the motion of non confidence, sat at home, and just showed up for the elections and he would have still won easily.

I think his ego got hurt big time which made him make foolish mistakes. Attacking army's assets and then disowning it was the last straw that broke the camel's back.

 

[Rana]

PTI is an ideology of rebellion

Not peace

 

[Savak]

I forgot to mention that Imran's poor foreign policy also contributed to his downfall. For no good reason he ruined Pakistan's relationships with the US and Saudi Arabia, two countries which can heavily influence Pakistan's military establishment.

When Imran Khan wanted to join the Russian camp and build better relations with Russia, a Pakistani trading delegation went to meet IK and his economic team where they showed him facts, figures, presentations which showed that Pakistan has only minuscule trade with Russia but the bulk of our exports, trade occurs with Europe and USA, Are you seriously going to jeapordize all that with USA and Europe when we have nothing major to gain with Russia?

IK didn't listen

 

[Sherazkhalid]

After this debacle one thing is clear, our dreams of grandeur are just that, dreams. Going forward we will be the mercenary of the world with no other capabilities of our own. Competing with other nations in just words and table talk but not in actual progress. Lets the IMF loans roll in and good times begin, there will be Asian tigers but it ain't us.

 

[Savak]

My respect for Aitzaz Ahsan and Latif Khosa is through the roof. These guys have now been sidelined in their parties for a while and both know they will never rise to senior positions again but they have remained loyal to their parties and speak their minds fearlessly. Even they are now condemning the lack of courage and fortitude shown by the ex PTI leaders

 

[Rana]

My respect for Aitzaz Ahsan and Latif Khosa is through the roof. These guys have now been sidelined in their parties for a while and both know they will never rise to senior positions again but they have remained loyal to their parties and speak their minds fearlessly. Even they are now condemning the lack of courage and fortitude shown by the ex PTI leaders

Obviously they will take their opportunity to shine in the limelight now that the big dawgs have abandoned ship

 

[Extra_Cover]

For me if Pakistan politics is disassociated from general people of Pakistan then Khan is a big loser. However if politics revolves around general people of Pakistan then Khan is still the strongest even if his opponents all combine under one umbrella whilst on other hand Khan stands alone. Its remarkable to see how much Allah has given to one man. All Khan needs to do is show patience, if he survives this outburst that is unlikely to last for over a month as other priorities like economy and supreme court will take over.

As far as OP is concerned its mostly concerned around drawing room politics. If drawing room politics is the only route we will go down then there is absolutely no need for our thoughts on the subject as our (general people) existence does not matter in running the state of Pakistan.

 

[Blistering Barnacle]

When Imran Khan wanted to join the Russian camp and build better relations with Russia, a Pakistani trading delegation went to meet IK and his economic team where they showed him facts, figures, presentations which showed that Pakistan has only minuscule trade with Russia but the bulk of our exports, trade occurs with Europe and USA, Are you seriously going to jeapordize all that with USA and Europe when we have nothing major to gain with Russia?

IK didn't listen

What he was trying to do was not be the lapdog of western powers, and to form regional alliances in everyone's interest. He didn't try to shun the USA or Europe or anything of that nature. It's silly to say so. But he was open to bettering relations with all neighbors. He for instance went and cooled down bad relations with Iran. And also, for those talking to him about Saudi Arabia and UAE, it was under Nawaz that we refused to help them in their Yemen war, and that is what soured relations for a time.

 

[Blistering Barnacle]

I would add to that, that it is under this government that we are finally buying oil from Russia. As well we should, we should be using whatever the cheapest avenues are. As if India, who is great friends with Russia by the way, hasn't been benefiting from this for ages.

 

[Blistering Barnacle]

Basically the power of the army lies in their trained and disciplined forces that are armed and will do what their commanders say. A civilian population is pretty much toothless against them and their various secretive divisions that can raid your home in the middle of the night when you and your family are most vulnerable.

So as I read in some article recently, while the army chiefs would like to be liked, they would rather be hated and be in power than be merely liked.

They have shown their power now and people are scared. And I don't blame them for being scared. And you would do well to respect what the people who have been thrown in jail have done thus far, which is far more than I suspect most of us would do.

 

[Blistering Barnacle]

By the way, saying Imran ruined relations with Saudi is untrue. He was one of the few world leaders that attended after the whole Kashhoggi fiasco when MBS was a pariah on the world stage.

 

[Blistering Barnacle]

I wasn't an Imran fan as such but the way he was arrested and bundled off that day was really bad and it made me a supporter. I would not like to see any of our former prime ministers treated that way, guilty of corruption or not. The silence from the west is deafening on what has been happening in Pakistan. They don't care, it's not in their interest to have Imran back in power. This is the whole point of being a free nation and one of the few things I admired about Imran Khan - he didn't think Pakistan should be any country's lackey. Those in power now will do whatever it takes and kiss the backsides of all to the detriment of Pakistan.

 

[Blistering Barnacle]

By the way, saying Imran ruined relations with Saudi is untrue. He was one of the few world leaders that attended after the whole Kashhoggi fiasco when MBS was a pariah on the world stage.

I suppose I had forgotten about Imran's sin that offended the Arabs - trying to form an international Islamic country organisation which included the likes of Turkey and Malaysia - two comparatively modern, progressive and just Islamic nations compared to the restrictive Arab nations that head the OIC. How dare he do such a thing! He was punished for that and did have to go hat in hand to Saudi for that, which I despised. But hey, we rely on them for aid, because we are a beggar country.

 

[saeedhk]

The PDM thoroughly owned PTI in the last 12 or so months. Khan went a suicide mission right after his ouster by attacking the military's leadership, engaging in illogical protests and marches which resulted in the deaths of his party workers. However, the biggest own goal was the dissolution of KP and Punjab assemblies after which Khan made himself vulnerable to all sorts of abuse and brutality. This also made the lives of his workers extremely challenging.

Who in their right mind would give up power voluntarily and let go governing 180 million people? Many advised Khan not to dissolve the two assemblies as it would aid PDM in consolidating power. But, like every time, Khan did not pay heed. PDM played its card well and appointed their man Mohsin Naqvi and their police chief Usman in Punjab who played a huge and successful role in suppressing and isolating PTI.

Whatever Khan did was for him to get into the PM House; he refused to look at the broader picture and analyse the situation. Imran should just have focused on campaigning for the next elections rather than spreading chaos, violence and disorder. I am certain Khan would have been the PM in coming October. In short, Khan's ego consumed him and he has to pay the price now. He is effectively out of the game.

 

[moghul]

IK has never been a politically smart or savy shattir chalak individual or deep strategic thinker. He is always someone who speaks from the heart and does whatever he feels is right but he is not someone who can play a proper chess match and come out victorious with strategy, planning or deep strategic thinking which is why he relied very heavily on his core PTI team.

On the other hand the PDM via Nawaz Sharif, Shahbaz Sharif, Asif Zardari, Bilawal, Maulan Diesel no matter how corrupt, rotten, murderous they might be, they have shown themselves to be 10 steps ahead of IK at every step of the way.

1) Successful Execution of the VONC in April 2022 and they made sure IK could do nothing to thwart it despite PTI and its leadership having all the state resources at its disposal and advance notice of the opposition's plans

2) They countered PTI's resignations in the national assembly and have halted by elections and have kept the national assembly proceedings going with Raja Riaz as the opposition leader

3) The PDM kept giving messages and feelers to IK that if he dissolved the Punjab and KPK assemblies, they would announce urgent elections. They ensured IK and PTI would fall into the trap thereby they would be able to install their own people in the caretaker setups and control the police in these provinces.

4) The PDM successfully countered the Supreme Court and Chief Justice Bandyal and ensured that he arrived at a point where he would be terrified of going against the PDM and is just waiting for his tenure to end.

5) The PDM managed to get the Army Chief of their liking who perhaps shared an even deeper hatred of IK and PTI then they did. IK via Arif Ali without thinking twice gave his consent to the appointment

6) In one big master stroke of the event May 9, 2023, PDM destroyed PTI and IK by making his senior leadership team wet their pants and succeeded in making them desert IK and therefore leaving PTI in tatters and dissaray. Asif Ali Zardari boasted to his PPP senior leadership in Karachi a few days in a private event that he has something special planned for PTI and he gave a guarantee that PTI will be in no position to fight the Provincial and National Elections in Oct 2023 and IK would become irrelevant, this was it.

IK over the period of the last 12 months has just been sinking in poor decision making and him and his senior leadership team who have proved to be kittens under pressure have suffered from incompetence and poor war gaming, prediction abilities.

Without the help of the military IK has been exposed to be a novice when it comes to politicking, strategy, negotiations, war gaming in politics.

If someone has no moral value left and praise the thieves and dacoits for being "politically savy" then its understandable. If ultimate goal of a "politician" is to be in power but taking the country at the brink of its vey existence , then yes , the current mafia is "politically savy".

 

[wasim-fan]

The first misstep was fallout with the army. He had the opposition on the mat and was doing everything to crush them. But then he tried to do a one up on army. That's a red line.

 

[UP]

IK has never been a politically smart or savy shattir chalak individual or deep strategic thinker. He is always someone who speaks from the heart and does whatever he feels is right but he is not someone who can play a proper chess match and come out victorious with strategy, planning or deep strategic thinking which is why he relied very heavily on his core PTI team.

On the other hand the PDM via Nawaz Sharif, Shahbaz Sharif, Asif Zardari, Bilawal, Maulan Diesel no matter how corrupt, rotten, murderous they might be, they have shown themselves to be 10 steps ahead of IK at every step of the way.

1) Successful Execution of the VONC in April 2022 and they made sure IK could do nothing to thwart it despite PTI and its leadership having all the state resources at its disposal and advance notice of the opposition's plans

2) They countered PTI's resignations in the national assembly and have halted by elections and have kept the national assembly proceedings going with Raja Riaz as the opposition leader

3) The PDM kept giving messages and feelers to IK that if he dissolved the Punjab and KPK assemblies, they would announce urgent elections. They ensured IK and PTI would fall into the trap thereby they would be able to install their own people in the caretaker setups and control the police in these provinces.

4) The PDM successfully countered the Supreme Court and Chief Justice Bandyal and ensured that he arrived at a point where he would be terrified of going against the PDM and is just waiting for his tenure to end.

5) The PDM managed to get the Army Chief of their liking who perhaps shared an even deeper hatred of IK and PTI then they did. IK via Arif Ali without thinking twice gave his consent to the appointment

6) In one big master stroke of the event May 9, 2023, PDM destroyed PTI and IK by making his senior leadership team wet their pants and succeeded in making them desert IK and therefore leaving PTI in tatters and dissaray. Asif Ali Zardari boasted to his PPP senior leadership in Karachi a few days in a private event that he has something special planned for PTI and he gave a guarantee that PTI will be in no position to fight the Provincial and National Elections in Oct 2023 and IK would become irrelevant, this was it.

IK over the period of the last 12 months has just been sinking in poor decision making and him and his senior leadership team who have proved to be kittens under pressure have suffered from incompetence and poor war gaming, prediction abilities.

Without the help of the military IK has been exposed to be a novice when it comes to politicking, strategy, negotiations, war gaming in politics.

This is not politics but gunda giri. Khan played by the book and dissolved assemblies. Its another debate whether that decision was right or not. Constitution clearly states elections should be held within 90 days. If you harass my women and kids in my family and call that cunning then I’m not sure if being 10 steps ahead of the game is a right saying.

Crooks can’t defeat a single guy and using all their resources to kick the guy out. If they are so smart why not contest in a fair election and we will see who is a master of political chess?

 

[UP]

The PDM thoroughly owned PTI in the last 12 or so months. Khan went a suicide mission right after his ouster by attacking the military's leadership, engaging in illogical protests and marches which resulted in the deaths of his party workers. However, the biggest own goal was the dissolution of KP and Punjab assemblies after which Khan made himself vulnerable to all sorts of abuse and brutality. This also made the lives of his workers extremely challenging.

Who in their right mind would give up power voluntarily and let go governing 180 million people? Many advised Khan not to dissolve the two assemblies as it would aid PDM in consolidating power. But, like every time, Khan did not pay heed. PDM played its card well and appointed their man Mohsin Naqvi and their police chief Usman in Punjab who played a huge and successful role in suppressing and isolating PTI.

Whatever Khan did was for him to get into the PM House; he refused to look at the broader picture and analyse the situation. Imran should just have focused on campaigning for the next elections rather than spreading chaos, violence and disorder. I am certain Khan would have been the PM in coming October. In short, Khan's ego consumed him and he has to pay the price now. He is effectively out of the game.

As I said, Khan played by the book - its another debate if it was right or wrong. However, the constitution states elections should be held in 90 days. The lota Naqvi’s job was to hold elections not to suppress a popular party. This is a banana republic where who has power can do whatever he wants and pays no heed to qanoon. Countries like these will not survive but will only nosedive further and further.

Allah has blessed Khan with immense chrisma and power - expecting him to rise from dead.

 

[JaDed]

If they are so smart why not contest in a fair election and we will see who is a master of political chess?

They are smart that’s why they are contesting the elections with IK in them..

 

[LongHorn]

By the way, saying Imran ruined relations with Saudi is untrue. He was one of the few world leaders that attended after the whole Kashhoggi fiasco when MBS was a pariah on the world stage.

Not true, do you read and understand Arabic? Try following Saudi media and social media where normal Saudi citizens speak. Majority of Saudis hate Imran Khan mainly for trying to be more friendly with Turkey and Malaysia than what the Saudis wanted.

Saudi foreign policy considers countries like Pakistan, egypt, Jordan, Bangladesh as slaves, as in they do not like to see reach out to countries unless preapproved by MBS.

IK did that and hence MBS and his followers (which majority of younger Saudis are) hate him and were cheering when he got arrested. One regular member here didnt agree and I challenged him to bring one Saudi online speaking in favor of Imran Khan after his arrest and he could not . But yet I could bring a dozen Saudis speaking against him and calling him "Ikhwan"

The average Saudi views Imran Khan with the same hatred that they viewed Morsi

 

[DeadlyVenom]

At the time of vonc it seemed the PDM made a mistake.

They were genuinley on the ropes for a bit.

But Imran made many suicidal decisions in the past months that made it easy for them.

The silly antics around Punjab assembly when Buzdar was in/out/in, when they disrupted Hamza, got Ch PE in and then broke the assembly anyway was when many started to question wth the plan was.

So I don't thinj PDM were particularly savvy, Imran fell into their trap too quickly.

 

[the Great Khan]

Lol..the PDM are essentially the army's party. They can't survive without it. They don't have any policies. They had 13 months to do something. They have failed. The wardi walay will now move to their next failure in other words the eunuch. He will fail too. Then where will they go?

They aren't politically savvy. They are using brute force. A politically savvy politician would win an election They are predicted to lose through deft policy decisions and tactics. Their tactic is boot polish and kidnap your opponents.

Many here are now questioning Khan's decisions. My issue was he was a little naive..or was he? He has exposed everything. There are now clear lines for the average Joe. They have never ever been so aware and that has been IKs great success..power comes and goes but he has changed the way people think about politics. You can't buy that.

 

[MenInG]

Savvy indeed, thuggery more like it


Imran Khan’s internet connection was abruptly snapped shortly before he was to join a “very important” meeting with British Conservative MPs, his party says.

Sayed Z Bukhari, a member of Mr Khan’s Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf (PTI) who served in the former prime minister’s cabinet, told The Independent that the current Pakistani administration is trying to “isolate him in a corner” from the rest of the world by cutting off the internet from his residence in Lahore’s Zaman Park.

 

[NishanKonar]

As an Indian watching this whole saga - Imran Khan does appears to be very impulsive. Someone who acts without giving much thought to the long term consequences. He lacks the political smarts necessary to survive in a complicated country like Pakistan

One thing about Modi which both his fans and haters agree - he is an astute politician who plays politics like a seasoned chess players. Even someone like me who hates Modi acknowledge that he is very savvy who is always ahead of the game. Every now and then he pulls out a new trick and puts the opposition on the defensive. Goof thing is now opposition has realized the gameplan and are playing accordingly

But Imran comes across as someone says what's he wants and does not understand the long term game. Just wears his heart on his sleeve. And bcoz of that his whole gameplan has fallen apart

 

[Savak]

As an Indian watching this whole saga - Imran Khan does appears to be very impulsive. Someone who acts without giving much thought to the long term consequences. He lacks the political smarts necessary to survive in a complicated country like Pakistan

One thing about Modi which both his fans and haters agree - he is an astute politician who plays politics like a seasoned chess players. Even someone like me who hates Modi acknowledge that he is very savvy who is always ahead of the game. Every now and then he pulls out a new trick and puts the opposition on the defensive. Goof thing is now opposition has realized the gameplan and are playing accordingly

But Imran comes across as someone says what's he wants and does not understand the long term game. Just wears his heart on his sleeve. And bcoz of that his whole gameplan has fallen apart

A good captain has to be aware of the abilities and risilience of his team and players. By taking on the millitary establishment, he put them in a battle that they were not prepared for. His kids live in England and are well looked after by Jemima who i am assuming can afford excellent security, there is no threat to them in Pakistan. But everyone else in his party have their families, kids in Pakistan, they were much more vulnerable. He totally underestimated the depths to which the PDM, Pakistani Army would go to punish PTI and in a country with a pathetic judicial system, people are only going to hold out for so long.

Personally i think IK should have gone to jail and not sought any bail to send the message across to his party and people he was not scared of prison, of dying for his cause and that would have emboldened people. When the Pakistani army arrested Sheikh Mujib ur Rehman and locked him up in prison in Pakistan in 1971, it was the turning point of the Mutiny between the Bengali people and the Pakistani army.

 

[Savak]

IK has now admitted to two mistakes as far as COAS appointments and extensions were concerned

1) The extension of Bajwa in Nov 2019

2) The appointment of Asim Munir in Nov 2022. (Asim Munir was technically retired from Sept 2022 onwards and he could have used that to halt his appointment but he without thinking allowed Arif Alvi to sign off on the appointment). AM turned out to be ten times brutal than Bajwa. Bajwa warned IK not to lock horns with AM

 

[greatest]

Lol..the PDM are essentially the army's party. They can't survive without it. They don't have any policies. They had 13 months to do something. They have failed. The wardi walay will now move to their next failure in other words the eunuch. He will fail too. Then where will they go?

They aren't politically savvy. They are using brute force. A politically savvy politician would win an election They are predicted to lose through deft policy decisions and tactics. Their tactic is boot polish and kidnap your opponents.

Many here are now questioning Khan's decisions. My issue was he was a little naive..or was he? He has exposed everything. There are now clear lines for the average Joe. They have never ever been so aware and that has been IKs great success..power comes and goes but he has changed the way people think about politics. You can't buy that.

Agree 100%.
It doesn't matter he wins or loses this political game, the most important thing he has done which no one dared to do in the history of this nation is to finally show the people how to stand up for their rights against the most powerful and for that he has lead from the front despite all the dirty tricks played against him.
As Victor Hugo famously quoted:
"Nothing else in the world…not all the armies…is so powerful as an idea whose time has come.”

 

[from_da_lost_dim3nsion]

lol Nah , PDM is just a pawn in Army's bigger game to get rid of IK.Without their backing they be lacking . Real politik was played by mai baap pak army zindabad. One more win in their column .

 

[from_da_lost_dim3nsion]

to add to this ; I am by no means pro IK but the fascist tactics being used by Mai-Baap to reign in PTI will come back and bite PDM in the *** too. The same laws PTI passed and used against their position are being used on PTI now. Karma is somethin something

 

[Stewie]

lol Nah , PDM is just a pawn in Army's bigger game to get rid of IK.Without their backing they be lacking . Real politik was played by mai baap pak army zindabad. One more win in their column .

I dont know if we can call that a win. They dont play politics. They use fascist tactics to terrorize people into doing their bidding. I would say its not even a competition.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

IK has never been a politically smart or savy shattir chalak individual or deep strategic thinker. He is always someone who speaks from the heart and does whatever he feels is right but he is not someone who can play a proper chess match and come out victorious with strategy, planning or deep strategic thinking which is why he relied very heavily on his core PTI team.

On the other hand the PDM via Nawaz Sharif, Shahbaz Sharif, Asif Zardari, Bilawal, Maulan Diesel no matter how corrupt, rotten, murderous they might be, they have shown themselves to be 10 steps ahead of IK at every step of the way.

1) Successful Execution of the VONC in April 2022 and they made sure IK could do nothing to thwart it despite PTI and its leadership having all the state resources at its disposal and advance notice of the opposition's plans

2) They countered PTI's resignations in the national assembly and have halted by elections and have kept the national assembly proceedings going with Raja Riaz as the opposition leader

3) The PDM kept giving messages and feelers to IK that if he dissolved the Punjab and KPK assemblies, they would announce urgent elections. They ensured IK and PTI would fall into the trap thereby they would be able to install their own people in the caretaker setups and control the police in these provinces.

4) The PDM successfully countered the Supreme Court and Chief Justice Bandyal and ensured that he arrived at a point where he would be terrified of going against the PDM and is just waiting for his tenure to end.

5) The PDM managed to get the Army Chief of their liking who perhaps shared an even deeper hatred of IK and PTI then they did. IK via Arif Ali without thinking twice gave his consent to the appointment

6) In one big master stroke of the event May 9, 2023, PDM destroyed PTI and IK by making his senior leadership team wet their pants and succeeded in making them desert IK and therefore leaving PTI in tatters and dissaray. Asif Ali Zardari boasted to his PPP senior leadership in Karachi a few days in a private event that he has something special planned for PTI and he gave a guarantee that PTI will be in no position to fight the Provincial and National Elections in Oct 2023 and IK would become irrelevant, this was it.

IK over the period of the last 12 months has just been sinking in poor decision making and him and his senior leadership team who have proved to be kittens under pressure have suffered from incompetence and poor war gaming, prediction abilities.

Without the help of the military IK has been exposed to be a novice when it comes to politicking, strategy, negotiations, war gaming in politics.

what eff are you evening talking about?

PDM haram khores simply sold their souls (which they never had) and went to sit in the feet of criminal mafia of Army generals where these PDM scavengers agreed to become pawns on the chess board for a few 100 million dollars to look from Pak assets. There is nothing to be shatir and chalaak about this haram khori.

IK's only fault is that he called a spade a spade.

And thanks to this one person alone - that even though - the country is falling apart about both politically and economically - there is now absolutely no doubt left that our Army is the biggest criminal mafia and the biggest terrorist in the country.

 

[NishanKonar]

Everyone knew Imran Khan wud be jailed at some point. Whats baffling is PTI had no plan of action if Imran was arrested

As in Imran should have created an action plan for such an eventuality. Like coordinated nationwide protests and hartals. Like how farm protests happened in India

Instead there was no action plan. It was free for all. The PTI workers got angry and just went around vandalizing whatever they could lay their hand upon. Their leaders were either absent or unable to control their workers. That played right into the hands of the Army

This was complete failure of leadership of Imran Khan and PTI. No Army wufd let such wanton vandalism go unpunished. Compare that with farm protests in India. They were very well organized and executed. The Modi govt got no chance to crackdown

This whole episode reflects poorly on Imran's leadership and organizational skills. And kinda supports the theory that Imran and PTI was created and organized by the Army and ISI to tackle the Sharifs and Bhuttos. Without the Army's organizational skills, now they behave like headless chickens

 

[Savak]

Everyone knew Imran Khan wud be jailed at some point. Whats baffling is PTI had no plan of action if Imran was arrested

As in Imran should have created an action plan for such an eventuality. Like coordinated nationwide protests and hartals. Like how farm protests happened in India

Instead there was no action plan. It was free for all. The PTI workers got angry and just went around vandalizing whatever they could lay their hand upon. Their leaders were either absent or unable to control their workers. That played right into the hands of the Army

This was complete failure of leadership of Imran Khan and PTI. No Army wufd let such wanton vandalism go unpunished. Compare that with farm protests in India. They were very well organized and executed. The Modi govt got no chance to crackdown

This whole episode reflects poorly on Imran's leadership and organizational skills. And kinda supports the theory that Imran and PTI was created and organized by the Army and ISI to tackle the Sharifs and Bhuttos. Without the Army's organizational skills, now they behave like headless chickens

Tbh the army has reacted disproportionately as well. Did any Pakistani soldier die at the hands of the PTI and regular Pakistani protestor? No. On the other hand, it is estimated that atleast 100 people have been killed at the hands of the police and army from May 9 and May 10. Who will hold these people accountable?

 

[from_da_lost_dim3nsion]

I dont know if we can call that a win. They dont play politics. They use fascist tactics to terrorize people into doing their bidding. I would say its not even a competition.

They got the end result they wanted , I'd call it a win . I hope in the long run they take a L but its not looking good TBH. As far as constitution and human rights goes; nobody INCLUDING political parties GAF about it. They only cry about it when its convenient , PTI included .

 

[Stewie]

They got the end result they wanted , I'd call it a win . I hope in the long run they take a L but its not looking good TBH. As far as constitution and human rights goes; nobody INCLUDING political parties GAF about it. They only cry about it when its convenient , PTI included .

Last part… debatable but even if they happen to be as bad on that front, still ill take PTI over any of the choron ka tola backed by the pakistan “harmy”

A lot of similar transgressions by PPP and PML-N in the past have gone un noticed due to the lack of camera phones and social media then. The sharifs loved burning their enemies alive in their eenton ki bhattis back in the day. PPP has /is currently pulling ridiculous human rights violations in Sindh as well.

I am man enough to admit of given the reigns i would probably violate a few rights as well in pursuit of justice. If they can buy judges and get open and shut fraud cases dismissed, what options does one have?

 

[wasim-fan]

Not only is Imran Khan finished, Pakistan is also finished. It's done. In the modern day state and democracy cannot survive with army at it's throat. The institutions have collapsed. PDM may have won but Pakistan will lose. It's a fast descent into chaos and anarchy. 250 million people will be left lurching for survival.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

Not only is Imran Khan finished, Pakistan is also finished. It's done. In the modern day state and democracy cannot survive with army at it's throat. The institutions have collapsed. PDM may have won but Pakistan will lose. It's a fast descent into chaos and anarchy. 250 million people will be left lurching for survival.

lol, oh really?

Did you just realize it?

Well, enjoy it now.

 

[wasim-fan]

lol, oh really?

Did you just realize it?

Well, enjoy it now.

No I realized it two decades back. It's just that now the three elements of economic, political and social crisis come together. Pakistan can exist without PTI. Pakistan cannot exist without institutions and economy.

 

[from_da_lost_dim3nsion]

Last part… debatable but even if they happen to be as bad on that front, still ill take PTI over any of the choron ka tola backed by the pakistan “harmy”

A lot of similar transgressions by PPP and PML-N in the past have gone un noticed due to the lack of camera phones and social media then. The sharifs loved burning their enemies alive in their eenton ki bhattis back in the day. PPP has /is currently pulling ridiculous human rights violations in Sindh as well.

I am man enough to admit of given the reigns i would probably violate a few rights as well in pursuit of justice. If they can buy judges and get open and shut fraud cases dismissed, what options does one have?

I understand and somewhat agree with you but its a slippery slope. Who gets to decide when its A OK to violate human rights.E.g currently they are using may 9 like the media used jan 6 in the US to sell a narrative and they are getting pretty good at it. This is the first time since the VONC that anyone else besides PTI was able to sell their narrative . IMO Having rule of law with checks and balances is the only long term solution .

 

[Rana]

PDM have done the right thing by taking the back seat here and let the army clean house for them.

 

[moghul]

Not only is Imran Khan finished, Pakistan is also finished. It's done. In the modern day state and democracy cannot survive with army at it's throat. The institutions have collapsed. PDM may have won but Pakistan will lose. It's a fast descent into chaos and anarchy. 250 million people will be left lurching for survival.

Sadly , its true , not sure how long Pakistan can survive like this

 

[MenInG]

PTI Chairman Imran Khan on Friday made an impassioned appeal that it was high time that all state institutions sat with his party and found a solution to put the country on the path of progress.

“I would like to appeal for talks because what is currently happening is not a solution,” Mr Khan said in a live talk streamed on YouTube.

“The country is heading towards an imminent disaster since hyperinflation is around the corner. But the incumbent rulers are least bothered as they have stashed the looted wealth abroad,” he said from his Zaman Park residence in Lahore.

Separately, in an interview with France 24, Mr Khan said he had been “isolated” at his home, cut off from the senior leadership of his party, while thousands of his supporters have been arrested. “Anyone who supports PTI is either arrested or has gone underground,” he said.

Mr Khan also told the channel that he still feared for his life after two assassination attempts. “I am not at all safe,” he said.

In the video address, Mr Khan asserted that his appeal for dialogue should not be considered his weakness, adding that the physical and economic excesses being committed against the people of Pakistan was no solution. “The solution to the country’s problems rests in the state institutions functioning within their constitutional roles,” he said.

“Whenever I ask for a dialogue, the incumbent rulers think I am getting weak and they begin unleashing more excesses on PTI leaders and workers with the hope of crushing the party,” he regretted. He said no government could remove an ideology inculcated among the youth of the country.

He also warned the powers that be that they should exercise restraint as their attempt to crush the PTI could destroy the country. “No political party has ever witnessed such a barbaric action from the rulers,” he said.

Mr Khan said the country had already become a banana republic — a poor country with a weak government that depends on foreign money — because the rulers were not even respecting court orders to hold elections.

“The whole establishment, civil administration and the Election Commission of Pakistan are standing with the PDM [Pakistan Democratic Movement], but the rulers are still afraid of holding elections,” the former prime minister said.

The rulers, he said, were actually saying: “They would hold elections when Imran Khan was eliminated” from the political scene.

Describing the PTI leaders announcing defections as “forced divorces”, Mr Khan said he himself had condemned the May 9 arson attack on the Lahore corps commander’s house when he came to know about it while present in the Supreme Court the next day.

“Who will not condemn such a brazen attack on army installations?” he wondered, stressing that weakening the institution of the army was tantamount to weakening the country.

The former premier’s video address came at a time when PTI leaders were leaving the party — at gunpoint, according to Mr Khan — at pressers being held every other day.

Referring to this at the outset of his address, Mr Khan quipped: “I am not holding this media talk to leave the PTI.”

The former premier, however, struck a defiant tone, warning that his party’s popularity was only rising because of the crackdown and would still win an election whenever it was held. He said he only wanted to talk to take the country out of the current crisis.

He urged the nation and his party leaders, workers and supporters to observe patience in these critical times.

Explaining economic indicators while comparing the PDM government’s performance with his government’s during 2022 and 2023, he warned the powers that be that the nation would soon be caught by hyperinflation — a term to describe rapid, excessive and out-of-control general price rises in an economy.

Since the dollar rate in the open market has reached Rs308, Mr Khan said the salaried class would soon be compelled to come out on roads when they would not be able to bear the “upcoming hyperinflation”.

Meanwhile, the PTI central information secretary, Farrukh Habib, has said the coalition government was creating hatred among the masses while committing excesses against his party leaders, workers and supporters.

Speaking at a news conference on Friday, Mr Habib demanded that the government must allow all suspects an opportunity for a fair trial.

He stressed that the government should also stop giving inhumane treatment to suspects imprisoned in different jails.

Mr Habib said the PTI was a party of masses and the people were demanding elections at the earliest. He said everyone had condemned the May 9 arson attacks on state buildings and army installations.

Published in Dawn, May 27th, 2023

 

[MenInG]

This is what our politically savvy party is upto

 

[Sher Khan]

This farce needs to end. I hope PDM realise that they are actually meant to run the country. Stop this political victimisation nonsense.

 

[Savak]

This farce needs to end. I hope PDM realise that they are actually meant to run the country. Stop this political victimisation nonsense.

Their main primary focus since day one for the last 13 months has months has been the persecution of PTI.

They have set a very dangerous precedent. Power comes and goes as well. These parties should have no complaints when they will be at the receiving end of these tactics as well.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

This farce needs to end. I hope PDM realise that they are actually meantto run the country. Stop this political victimisation nonsense.

lol at the bold underlined.

Aren't they doing it for the last 70 years?

 

[DRsohail]

Full credit to the leaderships of PPP and PMLN who went through far worse times than PTI but their leaders did not abandon their parties.

If they faced 10% of what pti leader did then many would ahve left, and even without that many left.

 

[DRsohail]

This is what our politically savvy party is upto

PDM have done nohting so far, its the establishment been saving them. But for how long it will continue, 2 years ,3 years meximum 4 years.

 

[DRsohail]

No I realized it two decades back. It's just that now the three elements of economic, political and social crisis come together. Pakistan can exist without PTI. Pakistan cannot exist without institutions and economy.

Pakistan has no real institutions, its all fraud to be honest, the country been run on loans and charity with no future.Hard times to come, evene harder.
P

 

[daytrader]

13 parties + all state institutions and bureaucracy on the same side... they're not more savy just more scared of one man and will go to any extremes to eliminate the threat to their livelihoods.

 

[wasim-fan]

Pakistan has no real institutions, its all fraud to be honest, the country been run on loans and charity with no future.Hard times to come, evene harder.
P

Indeed. Whatever remnant were left have also been destroyed. It's quite amazing how folks are still hesitant to name the actual culprits. PDM was not made by Bhutto and Sharif. PTI was not made by Imran Khan. Emotional folks of the country keep falling for the same nonsense.

In the age of social media, army has crushed a party and brought the most popular leader in the country to it's knees. Whether I like Imran or not is irrelevant. Fact that this can be done and fact that army still rules this country makes Pakistan a failed state by definition.

Nothing is being hidden. Everything done in plain sight. PDM are only pawns in the hands owners of this country. But folks are still hesitant to call out the actual culprits.

 

[daytrader]

With the advent if so many new groups and political parties, it is clear that PDM and N league in particular are not in control

 

[Rana]

PDM have done nohting so far, its the establishment been saving them. But for how long it will continue, 2 years ,3 years meximum 4 years.

Khan and PTI ain’t coming back

Not in 2 years, 3 or meximum 4 years

 

[Major]

Indeed. Whatever remnant were left have also been destroyed. It's quite amazing how folks are still hesitant to name the actual culprits. PDM was not made by Bhutto and Sharif. PTI was not made by Imran Khan. Emotional folks of the country keep falling for the same nonsense.

In the age of social media, army has crushed a party and brought the most popular leader in the country to it's knees. Whether I like Imran or not is irrelevant. Fact that this can be done and fact that army still rules this country makes Pakistan a failed state by definition.

Nothing is being hidden. Everything done in plain sight. PDM are only pawns in the hands owners of this country. But folks are still hesitant to call out the actual culprits.

I said this before that if Pakistan can hang Bhutto, Imran was a no body.

I was reminded by the fans that noo, because of social media his fans will protect him.

Well the army single handedly destroyed them all

 

[Major]

Khan and PTI ain’t coming back

Not in 2 years, 3 or meximum 4 years

inshallah.

Project Imran was the bigggest failiure of the army and they wont repeat the same mistake again

 

[wasim-fan]

inshallah.

Project Imran was the bigggest failiure of the army and they wont repeat the same mistake again

Never say never in Pakistan. Where do you think economic situation is heading ? What will the secondary effect of default ? How long will Muneer remain in charge ?

People and establishment have short memory in Pakistan. If Imran stays outside the country and remains in media, the changing circumstances could make him favorable again.

But question to be asked is how is this not a failed state ? How can this structure continue to survive ? The elite and establishment will seek their rent and squeeze the last ounce and get out. What happens to the rest ? Forgive me if I see a doomed scenario with or without PTI. Unless military takes a conscious push to geo economics.

 

[DRsohail]

Khan and PTI ain’t coming back

Not in 2 years, 3 or meximum 4 years

I dont need him to come back. He is bigger than atht but i hope the decline continues with out him and give him better legacy.

 

[happydavy]

PTI didn't fail to PDM's trickery but to their own stupidity. PTI and IK were selected by the army in the first place in 2018. Rather than using the opportunity to do good work and actually get genuinely elected in the following federal elections, IK started drinking his own kool aid and picked up fight with the army, which had made him the PM in the first place. Then the whole circle of blaming the US for his ouster to requesting them to save him now. IK is the type of guy who can't work with equals, he has to be the undisputed leader, which is fine if the ecosystem allows him to be one but if it doesn't then he will always be in rebellious mode.

 

[Major]

I dont need him to come back. He is bigger than atht but i hope the decline continues with out him and give him better legacy.

if you are gonna wish bad for pakistan after hoping the first boat you saw, atleast wait for your residency to complete.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I said this before that if Pakistan can hang Bhutto, Imran was a no body.

I was reminded by the fans that noo, because of social media his fans will protect him.

Well the army single handedly destroyed them all

So are you pro-army now? Because it seems you are rejoicing in their victory.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

As to the topic, no one has ever claimed that Bhutto or Sharif clan are not politically savvy. They have drained the coffers of the Pakistan exchequer while building property empires abroad. For them politics is just a means to get rich, they would sell the country down the river if it meant a few extra zeroes in their offshore accounts.

 

[Major]

So are you pro-army now? Because it seems you are rejoicing in their victory.

FIA is not an army agency

 

[Major]

As to the topic, no one has ever claimed that Bhutto or Sharif clan are not politically savvy. They have drained the coffers of the Pakistan exchequer while building property empires abroad. For them politics is just a means to get rich, they would sell the country down the river if it meant a few extra zeroes in their offshore accounts.

Ironic considering Imran was laudering Malik Riazs money