Peace with Pakistan will give India direct access to Central Asia: Imran Khan

[Local.Dada]

Some of your points are valid and others not so much.

Indeed Pakistan is hindered in utilizing its full potential due to the long army rule (behind the scenes or openly), it doesn’t serve the best interest of common people.

On the other hand all these allegations thrown at Pakistan abt initiating terror activities in India, hosting Dawood Ibrahim etc are a bit meaningless when India is and unable to provide any solid proof when asked. This is not in the best interest of India either.

As for Kalbhushan, why was he sent over to Pakistan in first place? Isnt this exactly what you are accusing Pakistan of?

What extra proof do you want when your country is in grey list for terror financing and some of the worlds dreaded designated terrorists openly live in Pakistan.

Ok India is lying and has no proof, but these terrorists might be creating havoc somewhere right?

This is the kind of delusion I am talking about (not you personally)

The answers are right in front of you and you are trying to ignore it.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

What extra proof do you want when your country is in grey list for terror financing and some of the worlds dreaded designated terrorists openly live in Pakistan.

Ok India is lying and has no proof, but these terrorists might be creating havoc somewhere right?

This is the kind of delusion I am talking about (not you personally)

The answers are right in front of you and you are trying to ignore it.

You do realise that there are only two countries in the FATF black list, and one of those is the one you are talking about as the alternate trade route through central Asia right? Please stop with this FATF deflecting, you know fine well it's a red herring.

 

[Bi_Jamalo]

You do realise that there are only two countries in the FATF black list, and one of those is the one you are talking about as the alternate trade route through central Asia right? Please stop with this FATF deflecting, you know fine well it's a red herring.

Conveniently overlooked the point about Kalbushan (caught in Pak) as well but intent on accusing Pakistan of terrorism.

 

[ahsan17]

What extra proof do you want when your country is in grey list for terror financing and some of the worlds dreaded designated terrorists openly live in Pakistan.

Ok India is lying and has no proof, but these terrorists might be creating havoc somewhere right?

This is the kind of delusion I am talking about (not you personally)

The answers are right in front of you and you are trying to ignore it.

You seem to have no idea FATF grey list represents. Many Indians seem to be just jumping up and down about the FATF grey list without having any idea what being on that list means.

 

[ahsan17]

It would be very good if 2 of the 3 major South Asian countries (Bangladesh being the third) could improve relations with each other and even cooperate. However, as long as the current internal environment in these 2 countries continues, it will just be talk.

Yes, BJP does benefit from the current India-Pakistan low-level war, but it is a secondary platform for it. Its main platform is economic development, and it has been able to make some progress in reducing regulations that should boost the economy (like GST, farm laws etc). BJP may even see value in peace with Pakistan if it gives India an economic boost.

However, the current India-Pakistan low-level war is the raison d'être for the Pakistani military. It doesn't have anything to offer to the Pakistani public other than "we are here to protect you from India". It needs India to keep getting the best jobs, the best land, and the fancy lives its Generals have. When relations between India and Pakistan start improving, it will take action like the Kargil War.

Until the civilians suppress Army power in Pakistan, there will be no lasting peace. While Indians will benefit from peace, the benefit to the Pakistani civilians will be an order of magnitude larger.

Bulk of Pakistan's economic issues today are due to corruption of the previous two governments. But of course bhartis won't mention that given that those governments were friendly to India. They even didn't want to call out Indian sponsored terrorism as was leaked. No wonder Indians continue to point at false causes because the real causes were in their interests.

 

[OMB]

Peace with Pakistan will give India access to Pakistan markets most of all. Access to Central Asia markets is not in India's interest (china rules there) as their focus has recently moved to Africa.

But wherever India goes, it will have to compete with China.
Witness that in MENA region and in West Africa region and all "chinese trading posts ---> turned ----> socio-economic development turned ---> military bases (unsurprisingly) and that is their game plan now in Central Asia. India should avoid Central Asia and target Western markets.
Bangladesh has done this far better and more successfully than India.

There is a shift towards Indian products in Africa as many traders there say that chinese products are getting rejected by Africans due to poor quality. The corrupt leaders in Africa still permit China (and British French and US - YES they do ) to sell their minerals dirt cheap in lieu of few pounds of kickbacks, this is what Pakistan should avoid
India does have strong business community in Africa who have a good tie up with Indian producers but the Indian govt must do more to promote this like china does.

So the only commercial benefit of Peace with Pakistan is that for India it will open up a new market where people are very similar to India. Indirect benefits is that there will be less defense expediture and more cultural and sporting ties which is my main interest.

 

[Napa]

Bulk of Pakistan's economic issues today are due to corruption of the previous two governments. But of course bhartis won't mention that given that those governments were friendly to India. They even didn't want to call out Indian sponsored terrorism as was leaked. No wonder Indians continue to point at false causes because the real causes were in their interests.

This post is a good example of the mentality which has led Pakistan to being stuck exporting textiles and soccer balls. Check out the Indian offices of IBM, Microsoft, Accenture, Google etc. which employ hundreds of thousand of Indians. Why does Pakistan not have the same?

It has everything to do with the Army/ISI nurturing jihadi outfits like JEM, and the guy who kidnapped Daniel Pearl being set free. I don't have any desire to beat my head against a wall continuing to argue with you about this, but until Pakistan leaves behind its terrorist past it will not get Western FDI and will not develop modern industries.

By all means continue fooling yourself that Pakistan is in poverty because the Sharifs and the Bhuttos allegedly stole a few million dollars.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

This post is a good example of the mentality which has led Pakistan to being stuck exporting textiles and soccer balls. Check out the Indian offices of IBM, Microsoft, Accenture, Google etc. which employ hundreds of thousand of Indians. Why does Pakistan not have the same?

It has everything to do with the Army/ISI nurturing jihadi outfits like JEM, and the guy who kidnapped Daniel Pearl being set free. I don't have any desire to beat my head against a wall continuing to argue with you about this, but until Pakistan leaves behind its terrorist past it will not get Western FDI and will not develop modern industries.

By all means continue fooling yourself that Pakistan is in poverty because the Sharifs and the Bhuttos allegedly stole a few million dollars.

What is preventing all those American companies opening offices in Pakistan bearing in mind lots of companies are already there such as retail outlets and restaurant chains like KFC?

 

[cricketjoshila]

Bulk of Pakistan's economic issues today are due to corruption of the previous two governments. But of course bhartis won't mention that given that those governments were friendly to India. They even didn't want to call out Indian sponsored terrorism as was leaked. No wonder Indians continue to point at false causes because the real causes were in their interests.

There has been no India friendly government in Pakistan. The present pakistan govt will jump at any peace initiative with India, just like the last one. Just that India isnt interested in falling the trap again.

 

[Napa]

What is preventing all those American companies opening offices in Pakistan bearing in mind lots of companies are already there such as retail outlets and restaurant chains like KFC?

No comparison between product development offices and retail outlets.

To start with offices need huge investments, a small part of which is real estate of the sort that you see in India (Accenture, IBM and Microsoft below).



More importantly, there are no second chances with these gigantic operations. Can't say "oh, oh... India office has been bombed, so we will get the Seattle office to do the work". If the office in India fails once it has been set up, there is no backup plan if it suddenly stops working. So a firm will never set up a development office in Pakistan unless it could be 99.99% sure that the work won't be interrupted. A retail shop selling chicken wings? Sure, no problem...

 

[Napa]

There has been no India friendly government in Pakistan. The present pakistan govt will jump at any peace initiative with India, just like the last one. Just that India isnt interested in falling the trap again.

Rather than make "peace offers" which is just talk, Bajwa can prove he is sincere by taking actual actions. Shut down JEM, hand over Memon and Dawood (quietly if necessary). After 5 years of no attacks, India will be more confident in Bajwa's offers. Trust takes time to build, though it can be lost very quickly.

 

[Bi_Jamalo]

No comparison between product development offices and retail outlets.

To start with offices need huge investments, a small part of which is real estate of the sort that you see in India (Accenture, IBM and Microsoft below).

View attachment 108096View attachment 108097View attachment 108098

More importantly, there are no second chances with these gigantic operations. Can't say "oh, oh... India office has been bombed, so we will get the Seattle office to do the work". If the office in India fails once it has been set up, there is no backup plan if it suddenly stops working. So a firm will never set up a development office in Pakistan unless it could be 99.99% sure that the work won't be interrupted. A retail shop selling chicken wings? Sure, no problem...

Due to poor and sub-standard quality of IT work delivered from these indian offices, many companies are moving to ‘near-sourcing’ and diversifying in places like Poland, romania etc. These shiny buildings mean nothing and there isnt really that much setup/structural cost needed to start back office IT operations in any part of the world.

Move beyond this IT hyperbole and find something else to do the chest thumping

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

No comparison between product development offices and retail outlets.

To start with offices need huge investments, a small part of which is real estate of the sort that you see in India (Accenture, IBM and Microsoft below).

View attachment 108096View attachment 108097View attachment 108098

More importantly, there are no second chances with these gigantic operations. Can't say "oh, oh... India office has been bombed, so we will get the Seattle office to do the work". If the office in India fails once it has been set up, there is no backup plan if it suddenly stops working. So a firm will never set up a development office in Pakistan unless it could be 99.99% sure that the work won't be interrupted. A retail shop selling chicken wings? Sure, no problem...

I think the way forward in that regard would be for Pakistan to start building trust with multinational companies assuming they want their investment and operations in the country. Pakistan is on friendly terms with USA, I can't think of any reason why American companies should feel endangered.

 

[IndoorCricket]

Due to poor and sub-standard quality of IT work delivered from these indian offices, many companies are moving to ‘near-sourcing’ and diversifying in places like Poland, romania etc. These shiny buildings mean nothing and there isnt really that much setup/structural cost needed to start back office IT operations in any part of the world.

Move beyond this IT hyperbole and find something else to do the chest thumping

Not sure about 'many'. The good thing about Indian IT is we have huge number of engineers which are sometimes required for a massive projects which no other country can provide. As far as I know Amazon, Google and Microsoft are planning to open more development centers in India.

Keeping these companies aside Indian IT ecosystem is vibrant with many success stories and unicorns. IT services companies have been profiting quarter after quarter (Not in the pandemic though). And also people are looking for alternates to China and planning to move their workshops to India. Many people have been lifted out of poverty and able to enjoy some level of luxury because of these companies and any country would be proud of such achievements. Not to mention Indian IT is not even as big as Indian Pharma which is leading in the world.

 

[IndoorCricket]

I think the way forward in that regard would be for Pakistan to start building trust with multinational companies assuming they want their investment and operations in the country. Pakistan is on friendly terms with USA, I can't think of any reason why American companies should feel endangered.

How is the IT scene in Pakistan? You have any idea on that? India has a very competitive scene in IT. Pakistan and India have to leverage their young population and IT is a perfect place for it because of low barrier to entry and very minimal capital required or entrepreneurial endeavors.

 

[ahsan17]

This post is a good example of the mentality which has led Pakistan to being stuck exporting textiles and soccer balls. Check out the Indian offices of IBM, Microsoft, Accenture, Google etc. which employ hundreds of thousand of Indians. Why does Pakistan not have the same?

It has everything to do with the Army/ISI nurturing jihadi outfits like JEM, and the guy who kidnapped Daniel Pearl being set free. I don't have any desire to beat my head against a wall continuing to argue with you about this, but until Pakistan leaves behind its terrorist past it will not get Western FDI and will not develop modern industries.

By all means continue fooling yourself that Pakistan is in poverty because the Sharifs and the Bhuttos allegedly stole a few million dollars.

You forgot to mention that very few countries have offices of IBM, google, Accenture, etc employing hundreds of thousands. Pakistan isn't unique in that. In any case, you didn't directly reply to my point, which is all we need to know. "Few millions dollars" a big LOL.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

How is the IT scene in Pakistan? You have any idea on that? India has a very competitive scene in IT. Pakistan and India have to leverage their young population and IT is a perfect place for it because of low barrier to entry and very minimal capital required or entrepreneurial endeavors.

Can't really speak about the infrastructure in Pakistan, I know three of my immediate family in Pakistan have got visas to work abroad in the last few years so there does appear to be decent education available. Lots of the posters here appear to be IT professionals as well, some of whom have got jobs abroad, they would probably be able to give more detail on it.

 

[ahsan17]

This post is a good example of the mentality which has led Pakistan to being stuck exporting textiles and soccer balls. Check out the Indian offices of IBM, Microsoft, Accenture, Google etc. which employ hundreds of thousand of Indians. Why does Pakistan not have the same?

It has everything to do with the Army/ISI nurturing jihadi outfits like JEM, and the guy who kidnapped Daniel Pearl being set free. I don't have any desire to beat my head against a wall continuing to argue with you about this, but until Pakistan leaves behind its terrorist past it will not get Western FDI and will not develop modern industries.

By all means continue fooling yourself that Pakistan is in poverty because the Sharifs and the Bhuttos allegedly stole a few million dollars.

You also forgot to mention that, if you consider a large IT industry important to a country's development, then why did previous governments do nothing about it (or anything positive in general). This whole notion about the IT industry being important to being rich is only an Indian notion and to an extent American anyway. Most European countries don't have an IT industry worth speaking of. Same with South America, middle east, south East Asia. So please spare the **.

Being a software engineer myself with 10+ years experience in both Canada and US, I can also talk about how Indian IT isn't what Indian make it out to be. But that would be a separate thread.

 

[IndoorCricket]

You also forgot to mention that, if you consider a large IT industry important to a country's development, then why did previous governments do nothing about it (or anything positive in general). This whole notion about the IT industry being important to being rich is only an Indian notion and to an extent American anyway. Most European countries don't have an IT industry worth speaking of. Same with South America, middle east, south East Asia. So please spare the **.

Being a software engineer myself with 10+ years experience in both Canada and US, I can also talk about how Indian IT isn't what Indian make it out to be. But that would be a separate thread.

European countries doesn't have the massive population as India. IT might not be the only way to increase the standard of living but it is one of the fastest way to pull massive number of people out of poverty and provide some level of luxury.

Not sure what previous government you are talking about. South India has been a hub for IT sector for last 20 years in India.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

Secret India-Pakistan Peace Roadmap Brokered by Top UAE Royals

About 24 hours after military chiefs from India and Pakistan surprised the world last month with a rare joint commitment to respect a 2003 cease-fire agreement, the top diplomat of the United Arab Emirates popped over to New Delhi for a quick one-day visit. The official UAE readout of the Feb. 26 meeting gave few clues of what Foreign Minister Sheikh Abdullah bin Zayed spoke about

Read more at: https://www.bloombergquint.com/glob...stan-peace-roadmap-brokered-by-top-uae-royals
Copyright © BloombergQuint

 

[Napa]

Secret India-Pakistan Peace Roadmap Brokered by Top UAE Royals

About 24 hours after military chiefs from India and Pakistan surprised the world last month with a rare joint commitment to respect a 2003 cease-fire agreement, the top diplomat of the United Arab Emirates popped over to New Delhi for a quick one-day visit. The official UAE readout of the Feb. 26 meeting gave few clues of what Foreign Minister Sheikh Abdullah bin Zayed spoke about

Read more at: https://www.bloombergquint.com/glob...stan-peace-roadmap-brokered-by-top-uae-royals
Copyright © BloombergQuint

When NS tried to improve relations with India he was called a sellout, a traitor and worse. Now IK/Army are doing the same.

 

[ahsan17]

When NS tried to improve relations with India he was called a sellout, a traitor and worse. Now IK/Army are doing the same.

He has an agenda. He had and has business interests in India. He wasn't following Pakistan's interests but his own interests.

 

[ahsan17]

European countries doesn't have the massive population as India. IT might not be the only way to increase the standard of living but it is one of the fastest way to pull massive number of people out of poverty and provide some level of luxury.

Not sure what previous government you are talking about. South India has been a hub for IT sector for last 20 years in India.

Not really, because IT requires a 4 year degree for the most part. To get masses out of poverty you need jobs that people can get basically with high school education or even less.

With respect to previous government, I was talking about previous Pakistani governments.

 

[Napa]

Due to poor and sub-standard quality of IT work delivered from these indian offices, many companies are moving to ‘near-sourcing’ and diversifying in places like Poland, romania etc. These shiny buildings mean nothing and there isnt really that much setup/structural cost needed to start back office IT operations in any part of the world.

Move beyond this IT hyperbole and find something else to do the chest thumping

Not really. Indian IT firms’ stock prices are hitting all time highs with market caps for infosys at $75 billion and TCS at $150 billion.

If you want substandard IT work look at for example the Canadian firm that built healthcare.gov.

 

[Local.Dada]

You also forgot to mention that, if you consider a large IT industry important to a country's development, then why did previous governments do nothing about it (or anything positive in general). This whole notion about the IT industry being important to being rich is only an Indian notion and to an extent American anyway. Most European countries don't have an IT industry worth speaking of. Same with South America, middle east, south East Asia. So please spare the **.

Being a software engineer myself with 10+ years experience in both Canada and US, I can also talk about how Indian IT isn't what Indian make it out to be. But that would be a separate thread.

You are right IT industry is not the only thing important for a country’s development. It is the educational system and a culture that focuses primarily on standard education (non-religious).

IT, Research centers, Call centers,Pharma,space program etc etc are the byproduct of India having the largest number of graduates every year. You can also open a separate thread about the flaws in the Indian education system just like for IT and trust me I will contribute a lot of pain points myself but

As people constantly harp on here that India’s power is it being a huge market, take a step back and think having a large number of people is not equal to Having a huge market. You need people with purchasing power.

Similarly India is an attractive destination for all these tech/scientific processes to move to India is because it also has some of the smartest tech resources and May I add for your satisfaction cheap resources as well. It’s a combo of the 2.

On top of that India is relatively safe,peaceful and is not a nightmare when it comes to business continuity like some other countries can be.

India has done a lot of things right to get to where it is and a lot of things wrong due to which it hasn’t achieved to its potential. I don’t think anyone will dispute that.

I just don’t get why Pakistanis start looking for equivalences and flaws rather than learn from what Indian educational system and indians who have helped build these tech juggernauts have accomplished.

The discussion should become if Indian IT sector etc are better than Pakistan, not Flaws in Indian IT or why India still has poverty.

 

[Napa]

You forgot to mention that very few countries have offices of IBM, google, Accenture, etc employing hundreds of thousands. Pakistan isn't unique in that.

If Nigeria and Venezuela are the countries you wish to emulate, your thinking is appropriate.

You also forgot to mention that, if you consider a large IT industry important to a country's development, then why did previous governments do nothing about it (or anything positive in general).

As I mentioned in my earlier posts, the development of modern industries requires Western FDI which Pakistan won't get whichever government may be in power as long as the Army/ISI keeps nurturing jihadi outfits.

This whole notion about the IT industry being important to being rich is only an Indian notion and to an extent American anyway. Most European countries don't have an IT industry worth speaking of. Same with South America, middle east, south East Asia. So please spare the **.

Being a software engineer myself with 10+ years experience in both Canada and US, I can also talk about how Indian IT isn't what Indian make it out to be. But that would be a separate thread.

India's overall IT exports are at $150 billion. Is that a small amount? Compare that with the last IMF bailout for Pakistan of $12 billion. Even if you take Pakistan's size to be 1/7 of India, if it had comparable IT exports it would still be earning $21 billion A YEAR with growing forex reserves and no need for bailouts.

Having a flourishing modern industry creates all sorts of positive externalities. IT helps Pharma and vice versa. When Western corporations think of investing in India, they think "That country with modern IT and Pharma" rather than "That country where Daniel Pearl got killed and which provides arms to the Haqqanis who kill US soldiers".

 

[ahsan17]

If Nigeria and Venezuela are the countries you wish to emulate, your thinking is appropriate.

. How about most of Europe, south East Asia, south America, Middle east etc. As I said, you are leading to the wrong cause. None of those have any large IT sectors.

As I mentioned in my earlier posts, the development of modern industries requires Western FDI which Pakistan won't get whichever government may be in power as long as the Army/ISI keeps nurturing jihadi outfits.

. Why aren't these companies going to BD, South East Asia, Europe, South America I'm any large numbers? Also, whatever you said is clearly your own opinion. Most important thing is probably stability, which Pakistan lacked but is starting to happen in the last few years.

India's overall IT exports are at $150 billion. Is that a small amount? Compare that with the last IMF bailout for Pakistan of $12 billion. Even if you take Pakistan's size to be 1/7 of India, if it had comparable IT exports it would still be earning $21 billion A YEAR with growing forex reserves and no need for bailouts.

Or how about the billions stolen by the corrupt politicians. Or how about the fact that very few countries have large IT sectors. IT sector is secondary after having politicians who aren't constantly stealing billions.

Having a flourishing modern industry creates all sorts of positive externalities. IT helps Pharma and vice versa. When Western corporations think of investing in India, they think "That country with modern IT and Pharma" rather than "That country where Daniel Pearl got killed and which provides arms to the Haqqanis who kill US soldiers".

Again, clearly your own opinion with respect to how corporations think. I doubt they think in such one dimensional and simplistic ways.

 

[rockyboy2018]

As a Pakistani, I ain't know anything about Indian IT and whatnot. I am only interested in opening an IT consultancy company in heaven. That's my first priority the rest of the educational crap in this life is meaningless.

 

[Bi_Jamalo]

Not sure about 'many'. The good thing about Indian IT is we have huge number of engineers which are sometimes required for a massive projects which no other country can provide. As far as I know Amazon, Google and Microsoft are planning to open more development centers in India.

Keeping these companies aside Indian IT ecosystem is vibrant with many success stories and unicorns. IT services companies have been profiting quarter after quarter (Not in the pandemic though). And also people are looking for alternates to China and planning to move their workshops to India. Many people have been lifted out of poverty and able to enjoy some level of luxury because of these companies and any country would be proud of such achievements. Not to mention Indian IT is not even as big as Indian Pharma which is leading in the world.

Which new medicines have been invented and introduced by indian pharma?

Or is it mainly limited to contract manufacturing for western pharma companies and generic medicines.

 

[ahsan17]

If Nigeria and Venezuela are the countries you wish to emulate, your thinking is appropriate.

Is that what came to your mind when I said very few countries have large IT industries? Why didn't you think of your favourite country BD, or Europe, or South east Asia, or Middle east?

There are really only 3 countries with large IT industries - US, Canada and India. And Canada's isn't that large. You could throw in China as well but western companies don't open tech offices there for obvious reasons.

IT companies go to places that are producing a large number of OT grads at scale. India due to its huge population is able to do that, even though they may form maybe 0.1% of Indian population. I guess you could give some credit to IITs even though they are known outside India to produce absolute crap software engineers. But your assertion that Pakistan is unique in not having a large IT industry or only Nigeria and Venezuela don't have a large IT industry is of course complete **.

 

[Napa]

Which new medicines have been invented and introduced by indian pharma?

Or is it mainly limited to contract manufacturing for western pharma companies and generic medicines.

Nothing wrong with contract manufacturing and generics if the alternative is nothing.

You are taking this approach that it has to be 100% or it is not worth anything. If contract manufacturing and generics earn forex and give workers in India a decent wage, they are very welcome.

IT, pharma exports etc. has resulted in India's forex reserves reaching $580 billion. Back in the early 1990s, when there were no significant pharma and IT exports and India had not started getting the government out of the economy, its forex reserves fell to two weeks imports and it needed an IMF/WB bailout. Sounds familiar?

 

[Colorblind Genius]

Is that what came to your mind when I said very few countries have large IT industries? Why didn't you think of your favourite country BD, or Europe, or South east Asia, or Middle east?

There are really only 3 countries with large IT industries - US, Canada and India. And Canada's isn't that large. You could throw in China as well but western companies don't open tech offices there for obvious reasons.

IT companies go to places that are producing a large number of OT grads at scale. India due to its huge population is able to do that, even though they may form maybe 0.1% of Indian population. I guess you could give some credit to IITs even though they are known outside India to produce absolute crap software engineers. But your assertion that Pakistan is unique in not having a large IT industry or only Nigeria and Venezuela don't have a large IT industry is of course complete **.

There is another thought behind that too.

Many, many large businesses are owned by the Jewish in USA, or Jews/Israel have large stakes in many corporate and large businesses in USA.

And when you start developing software for a businesses, there is always a high probability that you may get to know the total in and out of that businesses, you get into the trenches and could know the businesses secrets to the guts.

And this is where Jews Hindu or Israel India friendship came into play.

Israeli/Jewish stakeholders won’t trust any Muslim country to provide them with a large supply of IT techies, and China was a big no no since its in direct completion with USA - so it was always safe to trust India/Hindu if they wanted their businesses secrets to fall into the hands of anyone outside the US.

In late 90’s when Clinton visited India, there were contracts signed and India was given the pat on the back to start producing IT techies (and with a few genuine ones, every Tom D!ck, and Harry and high school kick out start arriving into USA as a software developer),- otherwise it was nothing special kind of a God forsaken IT talent that Indians had which helped them attract Americans.
They just got luck to have a common enemy with Pro Jewish lobbies, and at the same time, they were not in direct completion with USA.

And you are correct, a lot of software developed by the Indian techies is a piece of junk.

A couple of engines that I worked on were developed by American software Engineers, more than 50 years ago in languages that are off the shelf now.

Both companies spent millions to redevelop the same kind of Engines in C.

They hired an army of Indian techies but they couldn’t build even 1/10th of it.
Both projects failed.

 

[Napa]

Is that what came to your mind when I said very few countries have large IT industries? Why didn't you think of your favourite country BD, or Europe, or South east Asia, or Middle east?

There are really only 3 countries with large IT industries - US, Canada and India. And Canada's isn't that large. You could throw in China as well but western companies don't open tech offices there for obvious reasons.

You have to have some industries. IT is higher up the value chain. But any exporting industry earns much needed forex.

You can't say "it is okay not to have IT because Europe doesn't have IT but it is successful". The obvious point is that Europe has auto, defense, high end fashion, Airbus and multiple other industries high up in the value chain. Sure you can succeed without IT but you have to have something higher in the value chain.

Bangladesh hasn't shown the ability as yet for moving up the value chain but they have $40 billion of textiles exports compared to Pakistan's $10 billion.

http://www.worldstopexports.com/bangladeshs-top-10-exports/
http://www.worldstopexports.com/pakistans-top-10-exports/

IT companies go to places that are producing a large number of OT grads at scale. India due to its huge population is able to do that, even though they may form maybe 0.1% of Indian population. I guess you could give some credit to IITs even though they are known outside India to produce absolute crap software engineers. But your assertion that Pakistan is unique in not having a large IT industry or only Nigeria and Venezuela don't have a large IT industry is of course complete **.

It is a self-reinforcing confirmation bias by some (including quite a few Pakistanis it seems) that IIT engineers are "absolute crap software engineers". Firstly, there are many successful IITians in software. Secondly, most of my classmates never went for writing software as a career. They worked for a couple of years, got an MBA and ended up in senior managerial positions.

If Indians didn't produce good engineers, Infosys wouldn't have a market cap of $75 billion and TCS of $150 billion. Everything is of course relative, and some Indian software engineers are of low standard. But at an average obviously India does well compared to other countries, if it didn't its firms would not have been successful.

 

[Napa]

There is another thought behind that too.

Many, many large businesses are owned by the Jewish in USA, or Jews/Israel have large stakes in many corporate and large businesses in USA.

And when you start developing software for a businesses, there is always a high probability that you may get to know the total in and out of that businesses, you get into the trenches and could know the businesses secrets to the guts.

And this is where Jews Hindu or Israel India friendship came into play.

Israeli/Jewish stakeholders won’t trust any Muslim country to provide them with a large supply of IT techies, and China was a big no no since its in direct completion with USA - so it was always safe to trust India/Hindu if they wanted their businesses secrets to fall into the hands of anyone outside the US.

Wow, here is an entirely new conspiracy theory. Apparently it is all about the Jew-Hindu axis.

In late 90’s when Clinton visited India, there were contracts signed and India was given the pat on the back to start producing IT techies (and with a few genuine ones, every Tom D!ck, and Harry and high school kick out start arriving into USA as a software developer),- otherwise it was nothing special kind of a God forsaken IT talent that Indians had which helped them attract Americans.
They just got luck to have a common enemy with Pro Jewish lobbies, and at the same time, they were not in direct completion with USA.

It was not Clinton by the approaching Y2K issue that gave a big boost to Indian IT industry. Also, way back in 1994 Infosys told General Electric to take a hike due to its constant attempts to bargain a lower rate.

https://www.gadgetsnow.com/it-services/Why-Infosy-bade-GE-goodbye/articleshow/12626780.cms

And you are correct, a lot of software developed by the Indian techies is a piece of junk.

A couple of engines that I worked on were developed by American software Engineers, more than 50 years ago in languages that are off the shelf now.

Both companies spent millions to redevelop the same kind of Engines in C.

They hired an army of Indian techies but they couldn’t build even 1/10th of it.
Both projects failed.

Work done by Indian techies is junk but Infosys has a market cap of $75 billion and TCS of $150 billion. Continue living in your delusional world.

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

We are keeping our location to ourselves, its india who has in past asked Pakistan to provide a land route for trade to Afghanistan and oil/Gas pipeline to Iran.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...n-clarifies/story-NkXuVJV6yXlCCDnmf3YI5J.html

https://energy.economictimes.indiat...dia-gas-pipeline-parliamentary-panel/57725094

As for alternative to Land route via ocean, of-course it exists but also has to cross near Pakistans territorial waters and is much more expensive and slower than the land routes. This is one of the reasons why China is running cross continental freight trains to europe and heavily investing in land routes like CPEC.

Until and unless India realizes it true place in todays world and start behaving in a sensible way, it will remain confined to an unimportant corner of Asia and limited to low level contract manufacturing for western countries.

For sensible things to happen.. Pakistan has to behave sensibly. It is pretty clear from Indian Govt. what is expected from establishment in Pakistan. Comply and reap the benefits.
Else, No.. Thank You. Continue on your own journey and we are happy with ours.

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

Are you saying India would be too weak to have any leverage of their own in a two way relationship? Don't they control the water coming into Pakistan?

Why do you want any leverage with a crazy party.. who can do anything at any point of time.
You just cannot trust them.
It is just not worth it as of now. It is called being smart and knowing whom to deal with.
Pakistan is not a country worth dealing with for India as of now.

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

Going by the past history.. I am a bit worried now what will happen next.
Vajpayee went ahead for Peace Talks.. Kargil happened.
Modi paid a surprise visit to Nawaz.. Pathankot happened.

The pattern is not very comforting and I worry something bad will happen again in future.
All these discussions and talks will be moot then, and Pakistan and India will be at each other's throats.

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

Due to poor and sub-standard quality of IT work delivered from these indian offices, many companies are moving to ‘near-sourcing’ and diversifying in places like Poland, romania etc. These shiny buildings mean nothing and there isnt really that much setup/structural cost needed to start back office IT operations in any part of the world.

Move beyond this IT hyperbole and find something else to do the chest thumping

Tch tch.. Now don't blatantly lie to make your fictitious claims appear true.

Microsoft's Development Center in Hyderabad is hiring more candidates. I have worked there.
The teams there work on Outlook, Visual Studio IDE and Azure, the core products of Microsoft.

Amazon has opened a new Development Center in Hyderabad and will employ close to 7000 Engineers..Mostly to work on Amazon Pay, Amazon Echo.

Atlassian(An Australian Billion Dollar company.. with Product Jira)... The salary of a 5+ experience Engineer they offer in 60 Lacs INR(120,000 AUD).. in their newly opened Development centre in Bangalore.

I can list almost every major US Software Giant building products, French, German, etc.. Software Giants like SAP, Schneider Electric. They have been established and increasing their work force in India for past 20 years now, and growing and hiring more Indian Graduates in India.

Along with local success stories like PayTM(20 Billion Dollar)
Zomato(Pretty sure everyone here would have ordered food via them..).. Look it up. It is and Indian Company with Billion dollars in Revenue.. and Whole Development Office in Delhi/Bangalore.
MakeMytrip, GoIbibo, Oyo Rooms(another Billion Dollar Startup)..
If all these companies are hiring Indian Engineers and pampering them with Strong Salaries and Perks, then,
We are really happy with our 'low quality' work.

 

[Technics 1210]

You know someone is lying when they claim Outlook and Visual studio are core MS products.

O365 and Windows remain the core products of MS; with Azure in 3rd place.

Maybe it's what MS said to motivate Indian workers at the MS development centre in Hyderabad. Yup, BSOD for sure!

 

[Technics 1210]

Of course if the IT pay in India is what is according to Indian users, why on earth are 'skilled' Indian IT workers fleeing India for better IT opportunities abroad?

In the UK, IT companies outsource to India not for their skill, but frankly back-end horse-work at cheap rates.

It's no surprise companies have reloacted their call/support centres from India. The scripted nonsense was going to crack at some point.

Now UK companies make it a point their support centres are in the UK/West.

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

You know someone is lying when they claim Outlook and Visual studio are core MS products.

O365 and Windows remain the core products of MS; with Azure in 3rd place.

Maybe it's what MS said to motivate Indian workers at the MS development centre in Hyderabad. Yup, BSOD for sure!

Do you really know what Visual Studio is and how much revenue it generates with licensing all over the world. Or Outlook email client. Azure is just 10 years old product.
Also do check where the Windows security patch fixing team sits and works.(hint: I was sitting there as well for 2 years).

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

Of course if the IT pay in India is what is according to Indian users, why on earth are 'skilled' Indian IT workers fleeing India for better IT opportunities abroad?

In the UK, IT companies outsource to India not for their skill, but frankly back-end horse-work at cheap rates.

It's no surprise companies have reloacted their call/support centres from India. The scripted nonsense was going to crack at some point.

Now UK companies make it a point their support centres are in the UK/West.

You can say what you want. Off course you will think it is only call Centers as you have zero ground knowledge of Industry in India and it does not support your narrative.
Plenty of talented Engineers stay back in India as well and run product teams of software giants as well as enable startup’s to scale.
To say that a 150 billion dollar industry is all low quality just displays the level of intelligence of our neighbours. No wonder there is next to nothing to talk in terms of their own achievements and here they tell us we are doing low quality work. A Big Lol.

 

[Technics 1210]

Do you really know what Visual Studio is and how much revenue it generates with licensing all over the world. Or Outlook email client. Azure is just 10 years old product.
Also do check where the Windows security patch fixing team sits and works.(hint: I was sitting there as well for 2 years).

I was using Visual Studio when you were not conceived, probably.

You never mentioned Windows, now you do.

You are talking out of your ****.

There is no competing OS to Windows in the Intel/x86 space. There is no competing office suite to O365, and the only challenger to Azure is AWS.

There are many email clients that compete with Outlook: and Visual suite isn't the only software used for coding/programming.

Your words may fool/impress your fellow Indian IT brethern, but people who have worked in IT long enough, outside of India, don't have to resort to lies.

 

[Technics 1210]

You can say what you want. Off course you will think it is only call Centers as you have zero ground knowledge of Industry in India and it does not support your narrative.
Plenty of talented Engineers stay back in India as well and run product teams of software giants as well as enable startup’s to scale.
To say that a 150 billion dollar industry is all low quality just displays the level of intelligence of our neighbours. No wonder there is next to nothing to talk in terms of their own achievements and here they tell us we are doing low quality work. A Big Lol.

More lies. The fact you are now resorting to smilies sums you up.

Try another way to impress.

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

More lies. The fact you are now resorting to smilies sums you up.

Try another way to impress.

Keep living in your delusional world.
Who cares. Engineers are making decent salaries in India and uplifting their quality of life. That is all what matters to me currently.

 

[Technics 1210]

Top MS products by revenue 2020

Office
Server/Cloud
Windows

https://businessquant.com/microsoft-revenue-by-product

The core of MS products.

Wind your neck in and spread your IT lies elsewhere.

PS: VS doesn't even make the list and is filed under 'other'.

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

Top MS products by revenue 2020

Office
Server/Cloud
Windows

https://businessquant.com/microsoft-revenue-by-product

The core of MS products.

Wind your neck in and spread your IT lies elsewhere.

PS: VS doesn't even make the list and is filed under 'other'.

Go this page https://www.microsoft.com/investor/reports/ar19/index.html :

Intelligent Cloud

Our Intelligent Cloud segment consists of our public, private, and hybrid server products and cloud services that can power modern business. This segment primarily comprises:

Server products and cloud services, including SQL Server, Windows Server, Visual Studio, System Center, and related CALs, GitHub, and Azure.
Enterprise Services, including Premier Support Services and Microsoft Consulting Services.https://www.microsoft.com/investor/reports/ar19/index.html
So, Visual Studio is part of the Core Server Product offering.

Now, Visual Studio has been in Development in Hyderabad center since 2005-06.. Azure development started around 2009 period.

Please don't tell me what is the core and and what is not.
Go to the investor reports of 2020 as well.
Same with Outlook.. O365 and cloud came into picture post 2005-06.. Outlook client has been in development in India since 2001. There is a team of almost 140 developers there.

Azure is a cloud offering..The code to run on that has to be written.
Bhai tu Code kisme likhega.. Paper ke uppar..
Do not talk nonsense about things you have no idea about.

 

[Napa]

Tch tch.. Now don't blatantly lie to make your fictitious claims appear true.

Microsoft's Development Center in Hyderabad is hiring more candidates. I have worked there.
The teams there work on Outlook, Visual Studio IDE and Azure, the core products of Microsoft.

Amazon has opened a new Development Center in Hyderabad and will employ close to 7000 Engineers..Mostly to work on Amazon Pay, Amazon Echo.

Atlassian(An Australian Billion Dollar company.. with Product Jira)... The salary of a 5+ experience Engineer they offer in 60 Lacs INR(120,000 AUD).. in their newly opened Development centre in Bangalore.

I can list almost every major US Software Giant building products, French, German, etc.. Software Giants like SAP, Schneider Electric. They have been established and increasing their work force in India for past 20 years now, and growing and hiring more Indian Graduates in India.

Along with local success stories like PayTM(20 Billion Dollar)
Zomato(Pretty sure everyone here would have ordered food via them..).. Look it up. It is and Indian Company with Billion dollars in Revenue.. and Whole Development Office in Delhi/Bangalore.
MakeMytrip, GoIbibo, Oyo Rooms(another Billion Dollar Startup)..
If all these companies are hiring Indian Engineers and pampering them with Strong Salaries and Perks, then,
We are really happy with our 'low quality' work.

You know someone is lying when they claim Outlook and Visual studio are core MS products.

O365 and Windows remain the core products of MS; with Azure in 3rd place.

Maybe it's what MS said to motivate Indian workers at the MS development centre in Hyderabad. Yup, BSOD for sure!

Looking past your nitpicking about what MS "top products" are, if you really think that India doesn't have a very lucrative IT industry, maybe you should short the following stocks of Indian firms with market caps of multi-tens of billions dollars. Or do you think these numbers are fake?

https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/INFY?p=INFY&.tsrc=fin-srch
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/TCS.NS?p=TCS.NS&.tsrc=fin-srch
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/CTSH?p=CTSH&.tsrc=fin-srch
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/HCLTECH.NS?p=HCLTECH.NS&.tsrc=fin-srch
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/WIT?p=WIT&.tsrc=fin-srch

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

Top MS products by revenue 2020

Office
Server/Cloud
Windows

https://businessquant.com/microsoft-revenue-by-product

The core of MS products.

Wind your neck in and spread your IT lies elsewhere.

PS: VS doesn't even make the list and is filed under 'other'.

Microsoft Development Offices in India have been since 1999-2000.
Azure came into picture around 2009-10. What was Microsoft Making before this ?
Do check where and how the product teams are distributed within Microsoft, if you can get some insider knowledge.
The core development activities happen only in Redmond and Hyderabad. Just go Microsoft Careers Website and search for Job listings for Software Engineers.. You will get your answer.
I understand you need to put Indians down.. But at-least do some fact checking before getting exposed like this for your blatant lies.
The Starting salary of and Engineer in Microsoft is 10 Lacs INR.. At around 15 years of Experience you can make in the range of 40-70 Lacs INR. That is at par with Engineers in the USA, factoring in the cost of living factor. Same story with Google/Amazon etc. Then there are 100 such companies e.g Atlassian, SAP, Schneider Electric, Banks like Morgan Stanley, JP Morgan Chase, Wells Fargo etc.
And a lot of Indian companies pay 20 Lacs to an average 10 years Experienced Engineer.

No a bad pay day for Indian Engineers doing low quality work.

 

[Technics 1210]

Go this page https://www.microsoft.com/investor/reports/ar19/index.html :

Intelligent Cloud

Our Intelligent Cloud segment consists of our public, private, and hybrid server products and cloud services that can power modern business. This segment primarily comprises:

Server products and cloud services, including SQL Server, Windows Server, Visual Studio, System Center, and related CALs, GitHub, and Azure.
Enterprise Services, including Premier Support Services and Microsoft Consulting Services.https://www.microsoft.com/investor/reports/ar19/index.html
So, Visual Studio is part of the Core Server Product offering.

Now, Visual Studio has been in Development in Hyderabad center since 2005-06.. Azure development started around 2009 period.

Please don't tell me what is the core and and what is not.
Go to the investor reports of 2020 as well.
Same with Outlook.. O365 and cloud came into picture post 2005-06.. Outlook client has been in development in India since 2001. There is a team of almost 140 developers there.

Azure is a cloud offering..The code to run on that has to be written.
Bhai tu Code kisme likhega.. Paper ke uppar..
Do not talk nonsense about things you have no idea about.

Don't change your tune now and start mentioning GitHub etc. Google more if you want but your defintion of MS core products based on revenue has been blown to smithereens.

VS is still not a core product, it is used by developers and not your typical end user consumer. If MS dumped VS, they'd still rake in Billions.

Don't explain to me what Azure is. I know what it is; it's a IaaS, PaaS, and SaaS platform and AWS competes in the IaaS and PaaS verticals.

Comeback when you pass your employment probationary period.

 

[Technics 1210]

Microsoft Development Offices in India have been since 1999-2000.
Azure came into picture around 2009-10. What was Microsoft Making before this ?
Do check where and how the product teams are distributed within Microsoft, if you can get some insider knowledge.
The core development activities happen only in Redmond and Hyderabad. Just go Microsoft Careers Website and search for Job listings for Software Engineers.. You will get your answer.
I understand you need to put Indians down.. But at-least do some fact checking before getting exposed like this for your blatant lies.
The Starting salary of and Engineer in Microsoft is 10 Lacs INR.. At around 15 years of Experience you can make in the range of 40-70 Lacs INR. That is at par with Engineers in the USA, factoring in the cost of living factor. Same story with Google/Amazon etc. Then there are 100 such companies e.g Atlassian, SAP, Schneider Electric, Banks like Morgan Stanley, JP Morgan Chase, Wells Fargo etc.
And a lot of Indian companies pay 20 Lacs to an average 10 years Experienced Engineer.

No a bad pay day for Indian Engineers doing low quality work.

Boring.

You talk of all these earnings but your lies don't tally with reality, Indian IT workers are flocking India in their droves.

I understand you need to big up India, but you will be exposed for your lies and ignorance in these parts of the world.

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

Looking past your nitpicking about what MS "top products" are, if you really think that India doesn't have a very lucrative IT industry, maybe you should short the following stocks of Indian firms with market caps of multi-tens of billions dollars. Or do you think these numbers are fake?

https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/INFY?p=INFY&.tsrc=fin-srch
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/TCS.NS?p=TCS.NS&.tsrc=fin-srch
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/CTSH?p=CTSH&.tsrc=fin-srch
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/HCLTECH.NS?p=HCLTECH.NS&.tsrc=fin-srch
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/WIT?p=WIT&.tsrc=fin-srch

Bro leave it. He knows nothing about ground realities and just posting nonsense here.
I have worked with Amazon/Microsoft/JP Morgan/Schneider Electric in India. There is a large pay-scale variance off-course. But at 12-15 years of Experience you can make 25-40 Lacs of salary depening upon your capability. I am from no IIT, but IT industry is really growing more. And the teams i worked in were doing very interesting Development work.
It is not like everyone in USA/Pakistan is only doing super crazy Product development. I have met Engineers who do the grunt work as well in USA/Spain/Australia.. same as we do in India sometimes as not everytime you will get a new product to develop. You have to maintain as well.
Just zero knowledge of Industry and how it works, what is involved in day to day lives of Software Engineers and just spouting words like 'Low Quality Work'.
Then, Not a bad salary and lifestyle for pulling the so called wool over the world for such 'Low Quality Work'

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

Boring.

You talk of all these earnings but your lies don't tally with reality, Indian IT workers are flocking India in their droves.

I understand you need to big up India, but you will be exposed for your lies and ignorance in these parts of the world.

Off course now you will find it boring. When you have been caught lying and sprouting non-sense. Next time read a bit and understand the industry you are talking about, rather then making large generalizations.
There are close to 50+ Million Engineers roughly... lets say 50% of them want to move abroad. Still leaves 25 Millions Engineers.. More then Population of Australia still who are motivated to stay in the country and want to do well.
Decision to move abroad.. Everyone has their own reasons. American people want to move out of American as well. Does not make a country bad.

 

[Technics 1210]

Off course now you will find it boring. When you have been caught lying and sprouting non-sense. Next time read a bit and understand the industry you are talking about, rather then making large generalizations.
There are close to 50+ Million Engineers roughly... lets say 50% of them want to move abroad. Still leaves 25 Millions Engineers.. More then Population of Australia still who are motivated to stay in the country and want to do well.
Decision to move abroad.. Everyone has their own reasons. American people want to move out of American as well. Does not make a country bad.

It's boring cos you keep repeating the same drivel after your ignorance of core MS products was exposed. Poor little you, thinking India is the epicentre of MS products.

Still you have yet to answer the basic question - if what you say is true about the IT industry in India - why are Indian IT workers leaving India for better opportunities and quality of life? All these new IT buildings in India, are they made out of cardboard or something?

Tsk tsk. I know repeating a lie has the ability to cloud the truth, but you are so bad it, that it's beyond hillarious now.

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

It's boring cos you keep repeating the same drivel after your ignorance of core MS products was exposed. Poor little you, thinking India is the epicentre of MS products.

Still you have yet to answer the basic question - if what you say is true about the IT industry in India - why are Indian IT workers leaving India for better opportunities and quality of life? All these new IT buildings in India, are they made out of cardboard or something?

Tsk tsk. I know repeating a lie has the ability to cloud the truth, but you are so bad it, that it's beyond hillarious now.

Come on you are embarrassing yourselves now.
People move all across the world, for various reasons and circumstances.
Even Australians move to America, British move to Australia/Spain etc.

I have already explained that people in IT in India earn varying degrees of salary for there so called 'Low Quality Work'.. and more and more companies are setting up offices in India now.

Since you cannot comprehend and still have to resort to making jibes..

Yeah those are cardboard buildings paid for by Multi National Companies, paying millions of rupees in rent.
It is a scheme by which Indian people have been able to pull wool over the world and are exporting 150 Billion dollar worth of export, as compared to Pakistans meagre 2 Billion Dollar.

 

[Technics 1210]

Come on you are embarrassing yourselves now.
People move all across the world, for various reasons and circumstances.
Even Australians move to America, British move to Australia/Spain etc.

I have already explained that people in IT in India earn varying degrees of salary for there so called 'Low Quality Work'.. and more and more companies are setting up offices in India now.

Since you cannot comprehend and still have to resort to making jibes..

Yeah those are cardboard buildings paid for by Multi National Companies, paying millions of rupees in rent.
It is a scheme by which Indian people have been able to pull wool over the world and are exporting 150 Billion dollar worth of export, as compared to Pakistans meagre 2 Billion Dollar.

Ok so your answer is Indian IT folk move to other parts of the world because people move across the world despite IT industry 'booming' in India. Got it.

So bad is your lie you had to mention Pakistan to cover it up.

Time to press CTRL+ALT+DEL on you. Absoloute blagger.

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

Ok so your answer is Indian IT folk move to other parts of the world because people move across the world despite IT industry 'booming' in India. Got it.

Time to press CTRL+ALT+DEL on you.

Again no proper response and more jibes. Good. Keep them coming. That is all is left for you to make you feel happy.
People across the globe move right, so why do you want make it an exceptional case for Indian people, as if Indians are the only ones changing their postcodes in the world.

 

[Technics 1210]

By the way, Australia and UK don't boast of a booming IT sector, never have, which is why skilled workers from these countries work in other countries in IT.

Yet this phenomenon can be seen in India, the only difference is India claims to have a booming IT industry, but their workers are fleeing India!

Here's a thought, if Indian IT workers are of such high quality and in demand, perhaps they can save a trip to the Amreekan embassy, and just work from home. It's all the rage now, especially since Covid 19.

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

By the way, Australia and UK don't boast of a booming IT sector, never have, which is why skilled workers from these countries work in other countries in IT.

Yet this phenomenon can be seen in India, the only difference is India claims to have a booming IT industry, but their workers are fleeing India!

Here's a thought, if Indian IT workers are of such high quality and in demand, perhaps they can save a trip to the Amreekan embassy, and just work from home. It's all the rage now, especially since Covid 19.

Oh man. You really are pretty naive and have zero knowledge, or you are just a troll who wanted to have some fun, but love getting his lies exposed.

Here are some figures for you :
Australian IT exports are a meagre 5 Billion USD.
https://www.afr.com/technology/only-technology-exports-can-secure-australia-s-future-20200524-p54vx6

UK IT exports are 39 Billion USD.
https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252442558/UK-tech-firms-international-trade-up-by-more-than-20

Indian IT exports are 150 Billion USD. This helps in our Forex reserve, the thing for which Pakistan has to beg pillar to post.

Also, lining up for Amreeka, the kids of those people India exports become CEOs, Build startups, Become Doctors, Bankers, Hoteliers, and Vice President.
Do you know the first Country Satya Nadella travelled to after becoming CEO, It was India.
He increased the budget to hire more Indians in India.
So don't worry about us lining up Amreekan Embassy, Looks like that also works in our favour as well at the end.

Man, you really are one of a kind. Do some research yaar, before posting such nonsensical things.

 

[ahsan17]

You have to have some industries. IT is higher up the value chain. But any exporting industry earns much needed forex.

You can't say "it is okay not to have IT because Europe doesn't have IT but it is successful". The obvious point is that Europe has auto, defense, high end fashion, Airbus and multiple other industries high up in the value chain. Sure you can succeed without IT but you have to have something higher in the value chain.

Bangladesh hasn't shown the ability as yet for moving up the value chain but they have $40 billion of textiles exports compared to Pakistan's $10 billion.

http://www.worldstopexports.com/bangladeshs-top-10-exports/
http://www.worldstopexports.com/pakistans-top-10-exports/

My point was simply to stop beating the drum about IT and to stop pretending that Pakistan not having a large IT industry is somehow unique to Pakistan. Pakistan's exports have stagnated, agreed. Guess which governments they largely became stagnated in? You probably won't mention that.

It is a self-reinforcing confirmation bias by some (including quite a few Pakistanis it seems) that IIT engineers are "absolute crap software engineers". Firstly, there are many successful IITians in software. Secondly, most of my classmates never went for writing software as a career. They worked for a couple of years, got an MBA and ended up in senior managerial positions.

If Indians didn't produce good engineers, Infosys wouldn't have a market cap of $75 billion and TCS of $150 billion. Everything is of course relative, and some Indian software engineers are of low standard. But at an average obviously India does well compared to other countries, if it didn't its firms would not have been successful.

Having companies with large market cap and producing crap software engineers isn't mutually exclusive. Companies continue to buy software from India because the software is cheap and there aren't a ton of alternatives. Anyone who has worked as a software at multiple software engineering companies (Google, Amazon, Microsoft, Oracle etc) as a software engineer and worked with off-shore Indian team will likely vouch that Indian teams tend to produce absolute crap quality software unless and until they are trained to produce better software.

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

My point was simply to stop beating the drum about IT and to stop pretending that Pakistan not having a large IT industry is somehow unique to Pakistan. Pakistan's exports have stagnated, agreed. Guess which governments they largely became stagnated in? You probably won't mention that.




Having companies with large market cap and producing crap software engineers isn't mutually exclusive. Companies continue to buy software from India because the software is cheap and there aren't a ton of alternatives. Anyone who has worked as a software at multiple software engineering companies (Google, Amazon, Microsoft, Oracle etc) as a software engineer and worked with off-shore Indian team will likely vouch that Indian teams tend to produce absolute crap quality software unless and until they are trained to produce better software.

See you cannot generalise like that. I have worked with French/American/Spanish/Pakistani/Indian /Australian engineers.
Some of them were good, some of them were crap.
Sane as good and bad people, greedy and giving people exist all over the world so do good and crap engineers.

 

[ahsan17]

There is another thought behind that too.

Many, many large businesses are owned by the Jewish in USA, or Jews/Israel have large stakes in many corporate and large businesses in USA.

And when you start developing software for a businesses, there is always a high probability that you may get to know the total in and out of that businesses, you get into the trenches and could know the businesses secrets to the guts.

And this is where Jews Hindu or Israel India friendship came into play.

Israeli/Jewish stakeholders won’t trust any Muslim country to provide them with a large supply of IT techies, and China was a big no no since its in direct completion with USA - so it was always safe to trust India/Hindu if they wanted their businesses secrets to fall into the hands of anyone outside the US.

In late 90’s when Clinton visited India, there were contracts signed and India was given the pat on the back to start producing IT techies (and with a few genuine ones, every Tom D!ck, and Harry and high school kick out start arriving into USA as a software developer),- otherwise it was nothing special kind of a God forsaken IT talent that Indians had which helped them attract Americans.
They just got luck to have a common enemy with Pro Jewish lobbies, and at the same time, they were not in direct completion with USA.

Muslim majority countries largely don't tend to have a large number of IT grads. To disprove this, Muslim countries need to start churning out a large number of IT grads.

However, you may have a point, in that a lot of Western companies have setup small development offices in South East Asia, Eastern Europe and South America. They don't hire a ton of developers there (usually its in the hundreds, at most in low thousands) so it's not changing a lot of people's lives, but it's something. Same can't be said about Muslim countries. I wonder why that is. Muslim countries do produce IT grads that it makes sense to at least open small development offices.

I do remember in one of my previous companies, the primary concern was software getting copied, which prevented them from allowing developers from a South East country to get access to the main code base. They only had access to some peripheral code and the company wasn't too concerned about that. Perhaps western tech companies are able to get reasonable IP protection for their software in India.

And you are correct, a lot of software developed by the Indian techies is a piece of junk.

A couple of engines that I worked on were developed by American software Engineers, more than 50 years ago in languages that are off the shelf now.

Both companies spent millions to redevelop the same kind of Engines in C.

They hired an army of Indian techies but they couldn’t build even 1/10th of it.
Both projects failed.

I've had many Indian developers tell me that most Indian developers get into the IT industry is for money and that they have little to no passion for writing software. Some do show passion however they are in the minority. I have noticed this too and I couldn't put my finger on what they are demotivated and don't show much passion for the work. What I was told finally made sense.

As for the quality of their work, I'd say their quality improves once they move to Canada and US, but only because they learn from the developers here. The off-shore ones.. god help them.

 

[ahsan17]

See you cannot generalise like that. I have worked with French/American/Spanish/Pakistani/Indian /Australian engineers.
Some of them were good, some of them were crap.
Sane as good and bad people, greedy and giving people exist all over the world so do good and crap engineers.

When it comes to software engineering, a disproportionately high number of them are Indian, even in US and Canada. In my general experience, the ones in the US and Canada do produce reasonable quality work once they move here. They do have to be taught how to write better software, but it's not difficult. However, they still tend to lack the passion for software development.

For those who were born and/or brought up in US or Canada, they largely go into software development because of a passion for development. That includes Indians born and/or brought up here. Yes there are some that go for money, but it's not the same as born/raised Indians. I've had countless Indians, who got their education in India and/or also worked in IT in India, tell me that largely Indians go into this field because of the money -- at least that's the case in India.

 

[RajBan]

Due to poor and sub-standard quality of IT work delivered from these indian offices, many companies are moving to ‘near-sourcing’ and diversifying in places like Poland, romania etc. These shiny buildings mean nothing and there isnt really that much setup/structural cost needed to start back office IT operations in any part of the world.

Move beyond this IT hyperbole and find something else to do the chest thumping

Things are already getting diversified with focus on electronics, pharmaceuticals, textiles. It might take another 5-7 years to reach a critical threshold though.

As far as IT is concerned, the industry is going through a third round of evolution with specializations on AI, ML, Cloud and UX.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Indian IT experts laying the SmackDown on our padosis. Things dont change much from the real world do they.

Indians are creating IT companies with multi billion dollar valuation, no amount of denial by Pakistanis online will change that neither will it affect that.

India is a IT export power house, its not going to change because our neighbours dont like it.

 

[Mamoon]

I am not an IT person and do not have any expert views on this matter but what I do have is common sense and reasonable level of intelligence.

The financial value and the global presence of Indian IT companies like TCS, Infosys, HCL etc. clearly suggests that the Indian IT industry is booming and the Indian IT experts know what they are doing.

Jealousy and denial will not help anyone. It can make you feel better but it will not change the ground realities.

Instead of living in delusions to downplay the success of Indian IT, Pakistan should do some introspection and highlight the reasons why Pakistan has lagged behind and failed to deliver on its immense human capital potential.

Majority of Pakistani folks are clueless about the factors that have hampered industrial growth in Pakistan. It has very little to do with corruption. Corruption exists in India as well.

The reality is that you cannot eliminate corruption especially in massively populated countries e.g. South Asian countries.

The major reason for the lack of industrial development is the involvement of military in politics & economy.

As long as the military remains the central power in the country and runs businesses worth billions and which is not subjected to any checks & balances and accountability, the country will fail to develop competencies.

The military of Pakistan needs to be expelled from the domestic/foreign affairs and only serve to protect the borders which is the primary function of the armed forces.

They are armed not to strangle the political machinery and the economy but to protect the borders.

In Pakistan, they have taken matters in their own hands and have positioned themselves to decide what is within the interests of the country and what is not, but that is not their job. Moreover, they themselves are not subjected to any accountability.

It is an unfortunate situation that Pakistan cannot get out of but it is also important to understand that it is circumstantial as well. The untimely death of M. Jinnah in 1948 created a power vaccum that was quickly occupied by the military.

The rise of military dominance and the political subversion before the formation of the constitution seal the fate of Pakistan over the next 70+ years.

M. Jinnah did not mince his words when he explicitly stated that the military will have no say in politics and economics and will only follow the orders civilian branches. However, his untimely death meant that his words had no consequences.

Today, ironically, every military office in the country holds a portrait of M. Jinnah while ignoring the message that he gave them.

On the other hand, Nehru lived until 1964 and oversaw the formation of the Indian constitution which ensured civil supremacy and prevented the military from overpowering the government.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

Wow, here is an entirely new conspiracy theory. Apparently it is all about the Jew-Hindu axis.

Pappu, I am bound by the company disclosures but will give a small hint to show you the tip of the iceberg.
An American fortune 50 company I was working for, and this high level requirement was coded, tested, passed and released under my supervision.

“If the equipment sale and/or service order is placed from Israel and the shipping address is in Israel, the order takes precedence over the orders placed by the U.S Army.”

This piece was coded in Chicago.

An American business conglomerate, a multi billion dollar company, is forced to put the orders placed by the AMERICAN ARMY on hold (forget the orders placed by local American retailers) if another order comes from Israel. And it can’t do anything about it but to honor it.

Do even understand the depth of this scenario?
I am just giving you a hint.

Look at how the user data of EVERY American mobile service consumers is sent to Israel under the blanket of AMDOCS while on the surface we are made to thump our chests for having privacy rights and civil liberties.

Back in 2001 when I was working at the Wall Street, I saw billions of dollars worth of daily trade by heavily jewsih/pro Israel financial institutions, Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs, and many others, and I thought to myself, “yeah right, these Wall Street hawks will let Arabs develop the software for their trillions of dollars worth of business trade and get to know their business secrets?

It was not Clinton by the approaching Y2K issue that gave a big boost to Indian IT industry. Also, way back in 1994 Infosys told General Electric to take a hike due to its constant attempts to bargain a lower rate

.

No, I am talking about the opening of flood gates of H1s from India that primarily started after the Clinton visit in 90’s when the contract to import the Indian techies were signed and special allocations were made to increase the # of H1 visas in the IT category.

Work done by Indian techies is junk but Infosys has a market cap of $75 billion and TCS of $150 billion. Continue living in your delusional world.

Financial numbers may be correct, and I don’t deny it but that’s not the point.

USA had to pay someone to do the job. China and Russia were out of the question, and so were any Islamic/Arab country, and there is hardly any focus on producing IT techies in the many Latin American countries.

So, India was the only main option.
How hard is it to understand?

It was a political move that USA had to play to not only get the job (cheaply) done but also partner with someone to better secure their business and trade secrets - and again, in general, there is no God forsaken extra special IT talent in the Indian techies. Third class caliber, approach, mindset and third class quality of work in general.
Lakeer Kay faqeer type yes bossers with no ability and/or imagination of creativity.

But one thing I will give it to you guys, in general, Indians are an extremely fast and quick copy cats. They are excellent in stealing the ideas and copy them in their work to thump their chests for being entrepreneurs.

But in a nutshell,
USA had no other better option, and you guys hit the jackpot. It’s as simple as that.

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

Pappu, I am bound by the company disclosures but will give a small hint to show you the tip of the iceberg.
An American fortune 50 company I was working for, and this high level requirement was coded, tested, passed and released under my supervision.

“If the equipment sale and/or service order is placed from Israel and the shipping address is in Israel, the order takes precedence over the orders placed by the U.S Army.”

This piece was coded in Chicago.

An American business conglomerate, a multi billion dollar company, is forced to put the orders placed by the AMERICAN ARMY on hold (forget the orders placed by local American retailers) if another order comes from Israel. And it can’t do anything about it but to honor it.

Do even understand the depth of this scenario?
I am just giving you a hint.

Look at how the user data of EVERY American mobile service consumers is sent to Israel under the blanket of AMDOCS while on the surface we are made to thump our chests for having privacy rights and civil liberties.

Back in 2001 when I was working at the Wall Street, I saw billions of dollars worth of daily trade by heavily jewsih/pro Israel financial institutions, Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs, and many others, and I thought to myself, “yeah right, these Wall Street hawks will let Arabs develop the software for their trillions of dollars worth of business trade and get to know their business secrets?

.

No, I am talking about the opening of flood gates of H1s from India that primarily started after the Clinton visit in 90’s when the contract to import the Indian techies were signed and special allocations were made to increase the # of H1 visas in the IT category.



Financial numbers may be correct, and I don’t deny it but that’s not the point.

USA had to pay someone to do the job. China and Russia were out of the question, and so were any Islamic/Arab country, and there is hardly any focus on producing IT techies in the many Latin American countries.

So, India was the only main option.
How hard is it to understand?

It was a political move that USA had to play to not only get the job (cheaply) done but also partner with someone to better secure their business and trade secrets - and again, in general, there is no God forsaken extra special IT talent in the Indian techies. Third class caliber, approach, mindset and third class quality of work in general.
Lakeer Kay faqeer type yes bossers with no ability and/or imagination of creativity.

But one thing I will give it to you guys, in general, Indians are an extremely fast and quick copy cats. They are excellent in stealing the ideas and copy them in their work to thump their chests for being entrepreneurs.

But in a nutshell,
USA had no other better option, and you guys hit the jackpot. It’s as simple as that.

Since you have done work for Fortune 50 company and large banks..
I am assuming you know Finacle.. A product created by the lucky Indians in Bangalore in 1980s. Still used in almost 94+ large banks in the World.
Or Since you would have ordered food, Zomato, started by Two lucky Indians who printed out PDF's of restaurant menus and are present in 110+ countries today.
Or Isro, the lucky Indians employed there by happenstance have created Software Systems to control mission critical hardware.
PayTM, FlipKart, Oyo Rooms, Zoho.. All these guys are just lucky that some American Israeli Gods have given them the ideas to start their companies from Zero to Billion Dollars today.

It is the Jewish and Hindus who want Pakistan down, hence it has meagre IT exports of 2 Billion Dollars only. Otherwise Unlucky Pakistanis would have ruled the roost and taught Jews and Hindus a lesson in how to make first class software products.

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

Man, some of the most ludicrous comments on this post. Lucky. .
You make your own luck by hard work, blood and tears to start companies and be successful,
to pull paying customers and retain them. Ludicrous from some educated folk working in Fortune 50 companies.

 

[RajBan]

Pappu, I am bound by the company disclosures but will give a small hint to show you the tip of the iceberg.
An American fortune 50 company I was working for, and this high level requirement was coded, tested, passed and released under my supervision.

“If the equipment sale and/or service order is placed from Israel and the shipping address is in Israel, the order takes precedence over the orders placed by the U.S Army.”

This piece was coded in Chicago.

An American business conglomerate, a multi billion dollar company, is forced to put the orders placed by the AMERICAN ARMY on hold (forget the orders placed by local American retailers) if another order comes from Israel. And it can’t do anything about it but to honor it.

Do even understand the depth of this scenario?
I am just giving you a hint.

Look at how the user data of EVERY American mobile service consumers is sent to Israel under the blanket of AMDOCS while on the surface we are made to thump our chests for having privacy rights and civil liberties.

Back in 2001 when I was working at the Wall Street, I saw billions of dollars worth of daily trade by heavily jewsih/pro Israel financial institutions, Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs, and many others, and I thought to myself, “yeah right, these Wall Street hawks will let Arabs develop the software for their trillions of dollars worth of business trade and get to know their business secrets?

.

No, I am talking about the opening of flood gates of H1s from India that primarily started after the Clinton visit in 90’s when the contract to import the Indian techies were signed and special allocations were made to increase the # of H1 visas in the IT category.



Financial numbers may be correct, and I don’t deny it but that’s not the point.

USA had to pay someone to do the job. China and Russia were out of the question, and so were any Islamic/Arab country, and there is hardly any focus on producing IT techies in the many Latin American countries.

So, India was the only main option.
How hard is it to understand?

It was a political move that USA had to play to not only get the job (cheaply) done but also partner with someone to better secure their business and trade secrets - and again, in general, there is no God forsaken extra special IT talent in the Indian techies. Third class caliber, approach, mindset and third class quality of work in general.
Lakeer Kay faqeer type yes bossers with no ability and/or imagination of creativity.

But one thing I will give it to you guys, in general, Indians are an extremely fast and quick copy cats. They are excellent in stealing the ideas and copy them in their work to thump their chests for being entrepreneurs.

But in a nutshell,
USA had no other better option, and you guys hit the jackpot. It’s as simple as that.

I don't know which Fortune 50 company you had worked for but that's a ludicrous logic. You have given a cherry picked condition without the overall context behind that requirement to present your argument but it really does not say much.

No sensible person denies that there are brilliant people in almost every country Islamic , Western , Latin or Asian. But where India did different was the adoption of technology as a service at a mass level much ahead compared to other global providers. Surely there are political factors that might have gone India's way , surely there are lot of average IT resources coming out of India but what many don't realize (not your fault, you won't know this) that Indian IT services is going through a tremendous transformation in last 3-4 years and will evolve into a knowledge hub by end of this decade.

The story has been same for America and West where they went through this kind of value based evolution in late 80s-90s(they started much early). India is now going through that similar evolutionary path. There will be differential quality grades as always because of the sheer size of population but in few years time the IT industry in India will be much different (it is already now) and at par with West. Couple this with heavy investment in manufacturing of chips , electronics and nano technology I expect Indian IT and ITes to be very different by 2030.

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

I don't know which Fortune 50 company you had worked for but that's a ludicrous logic. You have given a cherry picked condition without the overall context behind that requirement to present your argument but it really does not say much.

No sensible person denies that there are brilliant people in almost every country Islamic , Western , Latin or Asian. But where India did different was the adoption of technology as a service at a mass level much ahead compared to other global providers. Surely there are political factors that might have gone India's way , surely there are lot of average IT resources coming out of India but what many don't realize (not your fault, you won't know this) that Indian IT services is going through a tremendous transformation in last 3-4 years and will evolve into a knowledge hub by end of this decade.

The story has been same for America and West where they went through this kind of value based evolution in late 80s-90s(they started much early). India is now going through that similar evolutionary path. There will be differential quality grades as always because of the sheer size of population but in few years time the IT industry in India will be much different (it is already now) and at par with West. Couple this with heavy investment in manufacturing of chips , electronics and nano technology I expect Indian IT and ITes to be very different by 2030.

Nah man we will be lucky Indians. Jews will share there trade secrets with us and supply us top notch technology.. Which we will copy paste and just supply it back to our overlords in America and Israel.

Then, by luck and due to propaganda by America and Israel to suppress our neighbours.. some more Billion Dollar Enterprises will flourish.



Jokes apart, I completely agree. TCS/Infosys/Wipro have started to understand the shift in market and react accordingly. They have the capital, so one just need to look at the strategic acquisitions made by them in America and Europe. contracts with all the major banks of the world are still getting renewed.
Indian companies must have special talent of pulling wool over the eyes of the customers.. so that they keep coming back and give million dollar contracts and hiring Indian Engineers. Black Magic !!

 

[CricketCartoons]

Indians are blessed with intelligence and analytical ability, which they develop be sacrificing sports and other hobbies. No wonder they are the most sought after human capital by the world when it comes to high end work.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Indian IT experts laying the SmackDown on our padosis. Things dont change much from the real world do they.

Indians are creating IT companies with multi billion dollar valuation, no amount of denial by Pakistanis online will change that neither will it affect that.

India is a IT export power house, its not going to change because our neighbours dont like it.

Not going to argue with you, this is the era of the nerd, where once physical strength and valour were valued and brainy people were probably getting sand kicked in their face by handsome jocks, nowadays brainpower is given more respect, at least online. Perhaps not so much on tv shows or in the movies, but maybe that will come. Long may the internet smackdown of your padosis continue!

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

Not going to argue with you, this is the era of the nerd, where once physical strength and valour were valued and brainy people were probably getting sand kicked in their face by handsome jocks, nowadays brainpower is given more respect, at least online. Perhaps not so much on tv shows or in the movies, but maybe that will come. Long may the internet smackdown of your padosis continue!

You don't need to go that far. In 1971, some 93000 plus with so called valour and strength learnt a lesson in a hard way, where they were saved by getting sand kicked in their handsome faces. Even in the older times, The Brainy people created war strategies and boots on the ground executed it. Nothing has changed.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

You don't need to go that far. In 1971, some 93000 plus with so called valour and strength learnt a lesson in a hard way, where they were saved by getting sand kicked in their handsome faces. Even in the older times, The Brainy people created war strategies and boots on the ground executed it. Nothing has changed.

Agreed India saw the chance to catch an unaware Pak army far from home and jumped in to take advantage. It has puffed Indian chests for best part of a century, and to be fair there hasn't been much else so understandable.

 

[IndoorCricket]

TBH both regions are not in such a grate shape. Overpopulation and corruption are rampant and I cant see them ending in near future.

 

[RajBan]

Agreed India saw the chance to catch an unaware Pak army far from home and jumped in to take advantage. It has puffed Indian chests for best part of a century, and to be fair there hasn't been much else so understandable.

Actually there was a shared accomplishment by Indians and Pakistan which is to dispel the British from this region.

 

[El Generico]

Agreed India saw the chance to catch an unaware Pak army far from home and jumped in to take advantage. It has puffed Indian chests for best part of a century, and to be fair there hasn't been much else so understandable.

That’s a good point despite being a self proclaimed “ancient civilization” , 1971 is the only major military achievement they have so it makes that they keep obsessing over it after nearly six decades. Good for them I guess.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Agreed India saw the chance to catch an unaware Pak army far from home and jumped in to take advantage. It has puffed Indian chests for best part of a century, and to be fair there hasn't been much else so understandable.

That was Pak army at their home. You have declared East Pakistan as Bangladesh retrospectively.

 

[IndoorCricket]

That’s a good point despite being a self proclaimed “ancient civilization” , 1971 is the only major military achievement they have so it makes that they keep obsessing over it after nearly six decades. Good for them I guess.

Military conquest != great civilizations