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Peace with Pakistan will give India direct access to Central Asia: Imran Khan

Agreed India saw the chance to catch an unaware Pak army far from home and jumped in to take advantage. It has puffed Indian chests for best part of a century, and to be fair there hasn't been much else so understandable.

There doesn’t need to be “much else” when they helped break Pakistan into two pieces, disproved the two nation theory, made a Pakistani general sign the instrument of surrender and took 90k POWs.

India have the perpetual bragging rights. Only Pakistan liberating J&K will give Pakistan the bragging rights, which will never happen.

In comparison to getting humiliated in East Pakistan, what does Pakistan have to show for? One 40 year old plane, one pilot and a cup of tea.

However, that does not stop us from thumping our hollow chests every year on March 23 and September 6 as we spend millions of rupees to celebrate our failures.
 
Let's say it how it is, India is ruing the day they could've ceased Kashmir in 71, but opted to create another 'Muslim' majority nation, Bangladesh.

You couldn't make it up, then again you don't have to, India doesn't have the sand, and are historically weak.

30000 troops is all it took for the Brits to conquer and rule for a few centuries.
 
That was Pak army at their home. You have declared East Pakistan as Bangladesh retrospectively.

In reality it was Bangladesh, or more accurately the other half of Bengal. The east/west Pakistan was an ill-conceived concept and events bore that out. One day I expect Bengal to be reunited again as one state and the ugly fence dividing the state to come down. The region will revert to smaller more manageable states as in historical times.
 
In reality it was Bangladesh, or more accurately the other half of Bengal. The east/west Pakistan was an ill-conceived concept and events bore that out. One day I expect Bengal to be reunited again as one state and the ugly fence dividing the state to come down. The region will revert to smaller more manageable states as in historical times.

This is classic historical revisionism. Till 1947 to 1971, Pakistan was a Muslim Homeland. After 1971, Pakistan was the Indus Saga, the natural place for natives of that region. Nothing wrong with that. Each nation likes to have fond memories of itself.
 
Agreed India saw the chance to catch an unaware Pak army far from home and jumped in to take advantage. It has puffed Indian chests for best part of a century, and to be fair there hasn't been much else so understandable.

Unaware as in they didn't know that there was a country in the middle of thousand miles that separated the two parts of their country which they had already gone to war with two times in the last 25 years? Poor fellas, so unlucky!
 
Pappu, I am bound by the company disclosures but will give a small hint to show you the tip of the iceberg.
An American fortune 50 company I was working for, and this high level requirement was coded, tested, passed and released under my supervision.

“If the equipment sale and/or service order is placed from Israel and the shipping address is in Israel, the order takes precedence over the orders placed by the U.S Army.”

This piece was coded in Chicago.

An American business conglomerate, a multi billion dollar company, is forced to put the orders placed by the AMERICAN ARMY on hold (forget the orders placed by local American retailers) if another order comes from Israel. And it can’t do anything about it but to honor it.

Do even understand the depth of this scenario?
I am just giving you a hint.

Look at how the user data of EVERY American mobile service consumers is sent to Israel under the blanket of AMDOCS while on the surface we are made to thump our chests for having privacy rights and civil liberties.

Back in 2001 when I was working at the Wall Street, I saw billions of dollars worth of daily trade by heavily jewsih/pro Israel financial institutions, Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs, and many others, and I thought to myself, “yeah right, these Wall Street hawks will let Arabs develop the software for their trillions of dollars worth of business trade and get to know their business secrets?

No doubt the Jews have influence in the US as many of them are very capable. However, their success is due to their ability rather than some conspiracy. No one forced Yahoo and MySpace to supply inferior products when they were market leaders, letting Google and FaceBook to overtake them.

As for sending all user data to Israel, another conspiracy theory!

No, I am talking about the opening of flood gates of H1s from India that primarily started after the Clinton visit in 90’s when the contract to import the Indian techies were signed and special allocations were made to increase the # of H1 visas in the IT category.

The increase in H1Bs were not country specific. They were driven not by any desire to help India, but by US tech companies to access Indian and other labor. If Pakistan, Egypt, Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia and other Muslim countries produced IT workers of the same ability, the H1Bs were available to them also. I mean, come on, you think Indian IT workers are "third-rate", so what were workers from these countries?

Financial numbers may be correct, and I don’t deny it but that’s not the point.

USA had to pay someone to do the job. China and Russia were out of the question, and so were any Islamic/Arab country, and there is hardly any focus on producing IT techies in the many Latin American countries.

So, India was the only main option.
How hard is it to understand?

It was a political move that USA had to play to not only get the job (cheaply) done but also partner with someone to better secure their business and trade secrets - and again, in general, there is no God forsaken extra special IT talent in the Indian techies. Third class caliber, approach, mindset and third class quality of work in general.
Lakeer Kay faqeer type yes bossers with no ability and/or imagination of creativity.

But one thing I will give it to you guys, in general, Indians are an extremely fast and quick copy cats. They are excellent in stealing the ideas and copy them in their work to thump their chests for being entrepreneurs.

But in a nutshell,
USA had no other better option, and you guys hit the jackpot. It’s as simple as that.

So basically you are saying that the US chose India rather than China, Russia or some Muslim countries because they could trust that Indians would not steal their trade secrets while the others would? That is hardly a ringing endorsement for the others.

"Lakeer Kay faqeer type yes bossers with no ability and/or imagination of creativity". Some day you may step inside the offices of a top management consultancy firm like McKinsey or BCG which value creativity and analysis and find it full of Indian partners.
 
Military conquest != great civilizations

Sure but I never claimed that. Read the post I was replying to, my point was that due to a lack of military victories throughout their history , The one front victory at 1971 was monumental for India despite them not gaining any territory or even getting Pakistan to back from Kashmir.

This explains why Indians bringing in 1971 even in a discussion about peace talks in 2021 . I mean groups like Turks and the British at different points held massive amount of territory around the world but even they don't bring up their past as much as Indians bring up a singular victory lol.
 
Unaware as in they didn't know that there was a country in the middle of thousand miles that separated the two parts of their country which they had already gone to war with two times in the last 25 years? Poor fellas, so unlucky!

Unaware that India would jump into a civil war between warring factions of Pakistan. Perhaps that was naive of them, but Pakistani nature is devil may care and they often pay the price for their rash daredevil attitude later. We have seen this in cricket as well and it is equally astounding and frustrating to the bemused onlooker.
 
Sure but I never claimed that. Read the post I was replying to, my point was that due to a lack of military victories throughout their history , The one front victory at 1971 was monumental for India despite them not gaining any territory or even getting Pakistan to back from Kashmir.

This explains why Indians bringing in 1971 even in a discussion about peace talks in 2021 . I mean groups like Turks and the British at different points held massive amount of territory around the world but even they don't bring up their past as much as Indians bring up a singular victory lol.

1971 keeps popping up because the engagement is between Pakistan and India. If the conversations is with some other national your statement might have some merit.
 
There doesn’t need to be “much else” when they helped break Pakistan into two pieces, disproved the two nation theory, made a Pakistani general sign the instrument of surrender and took 90k POWs.

India have the perpetual bragging rights. Only Pakistan liberating J&K will give Pakistan the bragging rights, which will never happen.

In comparison to getting humiliated in East Pakistan, what does Pakistan have to show for? One 40 year old plane, one pilot and a cup of tea.

However, that does not stop us from thumping our hollow chests every year on March 23 and September 6 as we spend millions of rupees to celebrate our failures.

It's interesting though despite such a massive victory on paper, India doesn't really have anything major show for it other then bragging rights .

I know they helped with BD being formed but that was always going to happen because of geography as well as the systematic mistreatment that happened in East Pakistan. Russia and India helped speed up the process but it was inevitable. Bangladesh is now a sovereign nation without any sort of Indian control if anything they seem to be moving closer to China.

But from an Indian point of view, they got no territory, didn't even advance an Inch in Kashmir despite having Pakistan on the back foot. But I guess they got a signed paper and few images which they can use for bragging rights.

As for what Pakistan has to show? By India's own admission Pakistan is holding Indian territory for around 73 years, that's not too bad is it?
 
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It's interesting though despite such a massive victory on paper, India doesn't really have anything major show for it other then bragging rights .

I know they helped with BD being formed but that was always going to happen because of geography as well as the systematic mistreatment that happened in East Pakistan. Russia and India helped speed up the process but it was inevitable. Bangladesh is now a sovereign nation without any sort of Indian control if anything they seem to be moving closer to China.

But from an Indian point of view, they got no territory, didn't even advance an Inch in Kashmir despite having Pakistan on the back foot. But I guess they got a signed paper and few images which they can use for bragging rights.

As for what Pakistan has to show? By India's own admission Pakistan is holding Indian territory for around 73 years, that's not too bad is it?

Dividing Pakistan into two halves and disproving the two nation theory, the core ideology of Pakistan, is plenty to show for.

The independence of Bangladesh made the existence of Pakistan redundant, since it showed that Muslims are not one nation and hence diving the region based on religion was pointless and illogical.

Moreover, if Pakistan ever succeeds in liberating J&K who go onto to become an independent state, Pakistan will also consider it a triumph, do chest thumping and rub the document and the pictures in Indian faces even if Pakistan do not gain any territory in return.

Pakistan holds “Azad” Kashmir that was won by the FATA tribals because the military did not have the courage to take action and only stepped in when the tribals took the initiative.

It is true that India did not get it back, however, they haven’t really tried either because they know they cannot win it back since Pakistani has enough resources to resist Indian advances.

On the other hand, it is the Pakistani military that deluded itself multiple times into thinking that they could invade J&K and conquer only for the misadventure to backfire each and every time.

In 1965, Pakistan thought that the after effects of China thrashing India, the death of Nehru and the rise of a weak-link PM like Shastri was an opening to take control of the entire Kashmir valley but they thought wrong, and they didn’t learn their lesson which is why they launched the Kargil flop show.
 
Dividing Pakistan into two halves and disproving the two nation theory, the core ideology of Pakistan, is plenty to show for.

The independence of Bangladesh made the existence of Pakistan redundant, since it showed that Muslims are not one nation and hence diving the region based on religion was pointless and illogical.

Moreover, if Pakistan ever succeeds in liberating J&K who go onto to become an independent state, Pakistan will also consider it a triumph, do chest thumping and rub the document and the pictures in Indian faces even if Pakistan do not gain any territory in return.

Pakistan holds “Azad” Kashmir that was won by the FATA tribals because the military did not have the courage to take action and only stepped in when the tribals took the initiative.

It is true that India did not get it back, however, they haven’t really tried either because they know they cannot win it back since Pakistani has enough resources to resist Indian advances.

On the other hand, it is the Pakistani military that deluded itself multiple times into thinking that they could invade J&K and conquer only for the misadventure to backfire each and every time.
w.

So by your own admission despite being 7 times larger then Pakistan, India hasn't even once tried to take back Kashmir but the "courage less" Pakistan army has tried multiple times despite being smaller. Serious question do you know what courage means? Taking on way bigger opponent to take back what you claim to be yours is pretty courageous isn't it? The Pakistan army has issues but lack of courage does not seem to be one of them.

As for the ideology, the rising mistreatment of Muslims as well Sikhs in India clearly shows the logic behind it. East Pakistan falling has more do with geography then ideology.
 
Dividing Pakistan into two halves and disproving the two nation theory, the core ideology of Pakistan, is plenty to show for.

The independence of Bangladesh made the existence of Pakistan redundant, since it showed that Muslims are not one nation and hence diving the region based on religion was pointless and illogical.

This is actually not borne by facts. It’s called the Two Nation Theory. Not Two Country Theory.

The Two Nation Theory stated that Muslims of subcontinent and Hindus are separate nations. It did not state separate countries.

For Two Nation Theory to be disproven, East Pakistan would have had to have re-merged with what is India now. But Bengali Muslims, despite all the atrocities committed by West Pakistan, still decided that they are a separate nation from Indian Hindus and even Bengali Hindus in West Bengal state of India. So they ascribed to the Two Nation Theory despite whatever happened and decided that they want to be separate from Indian Hindus.

So yeah as long as Pakistan or Bangladesh doesn’t remerge with India; the Two Natuon Theory stands.
 
Like I said, you couldn't make it up with Indians.

Dividing Pakistan into 2 nations is revered as an accomplishment by the likes of Mamoon etc. However their hatered of Pakistan clouds their pretentious love and reality. (Tough having one parent from Pakistan and the other from India).

While Pakistan may have been split into 2 nations, India was split into 3 nations.

The best part, Indians fought independance agasint the British, while Pakistan pulled the rugged from Indian feet and declared independance from India.

Hold my chai.

:)
 
This is actually not borne by facts. It’s called the Two Nation Theory. Not Two Country Theory.

The Two Nation Theory stated that Muslims of subcontinent and Hindus are separate nations. It did not state separate countries.

For Two Nation Theory to be disproven, East Pakistan would have had to have re-merged with what is India now. But Bengali Muslims, despite all the atrocities committed by West Pakistan, still decided that they are a separate nation from Indian Hindus and even Bengali Hindus in West Bengal state of India. So they ascribed to the Two Nation Theory despite whatever happened and decided that they want to be separate from Indian Hindus.

So yeah as long as Pakistan or Bangladesh doesn’t remerge with India; the Two Natuon Theory stands.

The two nation theory was exposed as an unrealistic, idealistic theory with the independence of Bangladesh.

The two nation theory failed to consider that Muslims are not one nation and that religion is not a strong enough binding force to overcome sociocultural differences.

The proponents of the two nation theory grouped all Muslims of the subcontinent under one umbrella and ignored the cultural differences among Muslims in different regions of the subcontinent because they put too much value in Muslim unity.

The only saving grace is that the likes of M. Jinnah and Allama Iqbal did not live long enough to witness the racism and discrimination that west Pakistan showed towards East Pakistan and completely ignored the concept of Muslim unity.

Although M. Jinnah himself sowed the seeds of this discrimination and projected the superiority of West Pakistan when he went to Dhaka after partition and declared Urdu as the state language of East Pakistan in spite of Bengali majority.

The subcontinent is neither one nation nor two nation. The partition should not have taken place in this fashion. This region should have followed the European nation-state model with several small countries divided on the basis of culture, language, ethnicity etc.
 
Like I said, you couldn't make it up with Indians.

Dividing Pakistan into 2 nations is revered as an accomplishment by the likes of Mamoon etc. However their hatered of Pakistan clouds their pretentious love and reality. (Tough having one parent from Pakistan and the other from India).

While Pakistan may have been split into 2 nations, India was split into 3 nations.

The best part, Indians fought independance agasint the British, while Pakistan pulled the rugged from Indian feet and declared independance from India.

Hold my chai.

:)

Yes this always has me scratching my head as well. Seems such a petty standpoint to take. :91:
 
So by your own admission despite being 7 times larger then Pakistan, India hasn't even once tried to take back Kashmir but the "courage less" Pakistan army has tried multiple times despite being smaller. Serious question do you know what courage means? Taking on way bigger opponent to take back what you claim to be yours is pretty courageous isn't it? The Pakistan army has issues but lack of courage does not seem to be one of them.

As for the ideology, the rising mistreatment of Muslims as well Sikhs in India clearly shows the logic behind it. East Pakistan falling has more do with geography then ideology.

Pakistan’s futile attempt to conquer J&K was not an exhibition of courage and valor; it was an exhibition of stupidity and delusional thinking, the latter which is the hallmark of the Pakistani nation.

India is 7 times the size of Pakistan but Pakistan is a country that is held ransom by its own military who function as an occupying force.

Pakistan never achieved freedom and independence. The only thing that changed was that the rule of land was delegated from the British to the Pakistani military. Before 1947 we were colonized by the British and today we are colonized by our own military.

As a result, the military of Pakistan has enjoyed a disproportionate amount of funds and resources and in spite of that, they have always flopped when it mattered.

Nevertheless, India realizes that we are no longer living in medieval times where one empire can simply out-power another and grab land. They are not delusional like us and that is why they have not attempted to capture AJK.

There is no point in wasting billions over a mission that will not produce any positive results. Unfortunately, Pakistan did not have the intelligence to realize it because if they did, they would have prevented the humiliation in 1965 and 1999.
 
Unaware that India would jump into a civil war between warring factions of Pakistan. Perhaps that was naive of them, but Pakistani nature is devil may care and they often pay the price for their rash daredevil attitude later. We have seen this in cricket as well and it is equally astounding and frustrating to the bemused onlooker.

Actually they thought the cowardly Hindu third-rate software engineer Indian Army soldier would be no match for the Pakistani soldiers.

In General Tiger Niazi's own words:

According to Pakistani author, Akbar S. Ahmed, he had even hatched a far-fetched plan to "cross into India and march up the Ganges and capture Delhi and thus link up with Pakistan."[61]

This he called the "Niazi corridor theory" explaining: "It was a corridor that the Quaid-e-Azam demanded and I will obtain it by force of arms".[62] In a plan he presented to the central government in June 1971, he stated in his own words that "I would capture Agartala and a big chunk of Assam, and develop multiple thrusts into Indian Bengal. We would cripple the economy of Calcutta by blowing up bridges and sinking boats and ships in Hooghly River and create panic amongst the civilians. One air raid on Calcutta would set a sea of humanity in motion to get out of Calcutta"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._A._K._Niazi#Death_and_legacy

They also thought that the Bengalis would be easily cowed "On 22 February 1971, General Yahya Khan is reported to have said "Kill three million of them, and the rest will eat out of our hands.""
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Bangladesh_genocide

Really stupid actions that are based on massive delusions can afterwards be rationalized as "rash daredevil attitude".
 
The two nation theory was exposed as an unrealistic, idealistic theory with the independence of Bangladesh.

The two nation theory failed to consider that Muslims are not one nation and that religion is not a strong enough binding force to overcome sociocultural differences.

The proponents of the two nation theory grouped all Muslims of the subcontinent under one umbrella and ignored the cultural differences among Muslims in different regions of the subcontinent because they put too much value in Muslim unity.

The only saving grace is that the likes of M. Jinnah and Allama Iqbal did not live long enough to witness the racism and discrimination that west Pakistan showed towards East Pakistan and completely ignored the concept of Muslim unity.

Although M. Jinnah himself sowed the seeds of this discrimination and projected the superiority of West Pakistan when he went to Dhaka after partition and declared Urdu as the state language of East Pakistan in spite of Bengali majority.

The subcontinent is neither one nation nor two nation. The partition should not have taken place in this fashion. This region should have followed the European nation-state model with several small countries divided on the basis of culture, language, ethnicity etc.

You are not understanding the theory to begin with it seems.

The two nation theory said Hindus and Muslims are 2 separate nations. It could be in 2 countries or 20 countries that was irrelevant.

The fact that Bangladesh became independent and didn’t remerge with India strengthens the two nation theory and doesn’t weaken it.

You should learn the difference between Nations and Countries.
 
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Pakistan’s futile attempt to conquer J&K was not an exhibition of courage and valor; it was an exhibition of stupidity and delusional thinking, the latter which is the hallmark of the Pakistani nation.

India is 7 times the size of Pakistan but Pakistan is a country that is held ransom by its own military who function as an occupying force.

Pakistan never achieved freedom and independence. The only thing that changed was that the rule of land was delegated from the British to the Pakistani military. Before 1947 we were colonized by the British and today we are colonized by our own military.

As a result, the military of Pakistan has enjoyed a disproportionate amount of funds and resources and in spite of that, they have always flopped when it mattered.

Nevertheless, India realizes that we are no longer living in medieval times where one empire can simply out-power another and grab land. They are not delusional like us and that is why they have not attempted to capture AJK.

There is no point in wasting billions over a mission that will not produce any positive results. Unfortunately, Pakistan did not have the intelligence to realize it because if they did, they would have prevented the humiliation in 1965 and 1999.

Agree with you that India were practical and realised that they could never capture Azad Kashmir, and it was prudent to avoid conflict which could have given them a lot of pain. But 1965 and 1999 would be considered by Pakistan as firing shots across the bows. Anything less than a military defeat would be considered victory by the much smaller nation. The world was agog at how this small nation threw down the gauntlet at it's much larger neighbour. India really should have crushed Pakistan in response, but perhaps they were unable and quickly agreed to a world brokered ceasefire.
 
You are not understanding the theory to begin with it seems.

The two nation theory said Hindus and Muslims are 2 separate nations. It could be in 2 countries or 20 countries that was irrelevant.

The fact that Bangladesh became independent and didn’t remerge with India strengthens the two nation theory and doesn’t weaken it.

You should learn the difference between Nations and Countries.

Actually it did disprove the 2 nation theory. It showed that ethnicity is stronger than religion even though religion may say ethnicity is unimportant.
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi writes a letter to Pakistani Prime Minister Imran Khan wishing the greetings on the occasion of the National Day of Pakistan. PM Modi has expressed a desire for cordial relations of India with the people of Pakistan. This is big! <a href="https://t.co/RbU58LRZtc">pic.twitter.com/RbU58LRZtc</a></p>— Wajahat Kazmi &#55356;&#56821;&#55356;&#56816; (@KazmiWajahat) <a href="https://twitter.com/KazmiWajahat/status/1374393098596360195?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 23, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>


Is the letter a routine thing that happens every year? If not then this could be a sign that India wants to move towards peace talks as well.
 
It's the initial tidings of the possibility of an olive branch since the Pulwama attack. The language in that letter is conciliatory.
 
Actually it did disprove the 2 nation theory. It showed that ethnicity is stronger than religion even though religion may say ethnicity is unimportant.

If that was the case then East Pakistanis would have wanted to reunite with their Bengali Hindu brethren. But they ensured that that did not happen and they got a Muslim majority country.
 
Actually it did disprove the 2 nation theory. It showed that ethnicity is stronger than religion even though religion may say ethnicity is unimportant.

It didn't disprove that hindus and muslims are separate nations. TNT stands strong still.

It only disproved ONT (1 nation theory), that SC muslims are one nation. But no one was claiming ONT, so nothing to be disproved.
 
What a mess this thread is! Lets move on guys - past is history.

Re: Present
To each his own - celebrate and be proud of your own values while not mudslinging others. Time will teach and tell everyone.
 
Why talk about disproving a 2 nation theory? India had disproved the 1 nation theory.

Move on.

2 nation theory didn’t survive after what happened in 1971

However not sure how India has disproved it? Indian map has been more or less the same since 1947 unless we lost a couple of town home plots to China in 1962. In fact India has only grown stronger since 1947.

Sometimes not sure if you guys think through before typing anything.
 
If that was the case then East Pakistanis would have wanted to reunite with their Bengali Hindu brethren. But they ensured that that did not happen and they got a Muslim majority country.

It doesn’t work that way. Why would they not enjoy independent rule and join another country especially after the brutality they went through from their oppressors (west Pak army) and the hard fought victory made easy in the end with help from a favorable country?

You should be infact praising India that they didn’t take advantage of the sensitive situation and tried to take care of then newly formed Bangladesh.

Also don’t think apart from a few rabid groups Bangladesh is as intense as Pakistan when it comes to Islam. They are more culture centric. Sure they have their own set of idiots but overall kudos they might be in fact the most secular islamic country on the planet after lessons learnt the hard way of course.
 
That’s a good point despite being a self proclaimed “ancient civilization” , 1971 is the only major military achievement they have so it makes that they keep obsessing over it after nearly six decades. Good for them I guess.

Yes The ancient civilization ruled from Afganistan and Persia to Burma and Indonesia.

Btw where are you from? Central Asia? Arabia?
 
No doubt the Jews have influence in the US as many of them are very capable. However, their success is due to their ability rather than some conspiracy. No one forced Yahoo and MySpace to supply inferior products when they were market leaders, letting Google and FaceBook to overtake them.

As for sending all user data to Israel, another conspiracy theory!



The increase in H1Bs were not country specific. They were driven not by any desire to help India, but by US tech companies to access Indian and other labor. If Pakistan, Egypt, Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia and other Muslim countries produced IT workers of the same ability, the H1Bs were available to them also. I mean, come on, you think Indian IT workers are "third-rate", so what were workers from these countries?



So basically you are saying that the US chose India rather than China, Russia or some Muslim countries because they could trust that Indians would not steal their trade secrets while the others would? That is hardly a ringing endorsement for the others.

"Lakeer Kay faqeer type yes bossers with no ability and/or imagination of creativity". Some day you may step inside the offices of a top management consultancy firm like McKinsey or BCG which value creativity and analysis and find it full of Indian partners.


Why are you banging your head? A Pakistani company probably wont be able to afford Indian IT services and an Indian us unlikely to move to Pakistan to work there. So the opinion of pakistanis on Indian IT companies and IT guys is of little use.

For some of them, everything is a consipracy to hold them back and benefit Indians.
 
It doesn’t work that way. Why would they not enjoy independent rule and join another country especially after the brutality they went through from their oppressors (west Pak army) and the hard fought victory made easy in the end with help from a favorable country?

You should be infact praising India that they didn’t take advantage of the sensitive situation and tried to take care of then newly formed Bangladesh.

Also don’t think apart from a few rabid groups Bangladesh is as intense as Pakistan when it comes to Islam. They are more culture centric. Sure they have their own set of idiots but overall kudos they might be in fact the most secular islamic country on the planet after lessons learnt the hard way of course.

You make no sense.

If the East Pakistanis didn’t ascribe to the theory that Muslims are a separate nation from Indian Hindus then they would have asked to be absorbed back into India. The fact that they didn’t and wanted to remain a separate country that they still ascribed the two nation theory.

Also the two nation theory was largely built up and strengthened by Bengali Muslimsnin the first place. They were in forefront of Pakistan movement
 
You make no sense.

If the East Pakistanis didn’t ascribe to the theory that Muslims are a separate nation from Indian Hindus then they would have asked to be absorbed back into India. The fact that they didn’t and wanted to remain a separate country that they still ascribed the two nation theory.

Also the two nation theory was largely built up and strengthened by Bengali Muslimsnin the first place. They were in forefront of Pakistan movement

The contradiction to the 2 Nation theory was that Bangladesh separating proved that Muslims were not a nation. While Hindus and Muslims didn't want to be in the same nation (India and Bangladesh), the Bangladeshis didn't want to be with the West Pakistanis either, disproving the idea that Muslims were one nation (the other nation in the 2 Nation theory being the Hindus).
 
You make no sense.

If the East Pakistanis didn’t ascribe to the theory that Muslims are a separate nation from Indian Hindus then they would have asked to be absorbed back into India. The fact that they didn’t and wanted to remain a separate country that they still ascribed the two nation theory.

Also the two nation theory was largely built up and strengthened by Bengali Muslimsnin the first place. They were in forefront of Pakistan movement

Was India interested in absorbing East Pakistan?

Bengali muslims realized soon enough that the Bengali identity was more important than the muslim one.
 
The contradiction to the 2 Nation theory was that Bangladesh separating proved that Muslims were not a nation. While Hindus and Muslims didn't want to be in the same nation (India and Bangladesh), the Bangladeshis didn't want to be with the West Pakistanis either, disproving the idea that Muslims were one nation (the other nation in the 2 Nation theory being the Hindus).

You need to learn the difference between Nation and Country it seems
 
Was India interested in absorbing East Pakistan?

.

India realized there was no scope for that a I guess. Bengali Muslims wanted a separate Muslim country and believed that Hindus and Muslims were separate nations as per the Two Nation Theory.
 
You are not understanding the theory to begin with it seems.

The two nation theory said Hindus and Muslims are 2 separate nations. It could be in 2 countries or 20 countries that was irrelevant.

The fact that Bangladesh became independent and didn’t remerge with India strengthens the two nation theory and doesn’t weaken it.

You should learn the difference between Nations and Countries.

I am not conflating nation with country.

A country is a territory led by a formal government.

A nation can be generically defined as a group of people that share culture/customs/traditions, ethnicity, language etc.

The problem with the two nation theory was that it was idealistic in nature and ignored the different nations within the Muslim community and only used religion as a measure of national unity.

Religion is part of what defines a nation but it cannot compensate for the differences in cultures, ethnicity, language, traditions etc.

That is why West and East Pakistan were incompatible in spite of being artificially lumped together as one nation under the umbrella of Islam.

Were the proponents of the two nation theory right about their belief that Muslims and Hindus are a separate nation? Sure.

However, they were also extremely wrong about their belief that Muslims are one nation, because they are not. When you have sociocultural differences, you are not one nation, regardless of the shared religious beliefs.

That is why the two nation theory failed and could barely lost for two decades. The fact that the Indian subcontinent is not one nation does not prove the two nation theory right.

It simply shows that the subcontinent is made up of several different nations and partition based on those national boundaries would have been more natural.

For example, south India and north India is not one nation either. Pakistan Punjab and Indian Punjab and Haryana and also the union territory of Delhi is more of a one nation than Tamil Nadu and North India.
 
I am not conflating nation with country.

A country is a territory led by a formal government.

A nation can be generically defined as a group of people that share culture/customs/traditions, ethnicity, language etc.

The problem with the two nation theory was that it was idealistic in nature and ignored the different nations within the Muslim community and only used religion as a measure of national unity.

Religion is part of what defines a nation but it cannot compensate for the differences in cultures, ethnicity, language, traditions etc.

That is why West and East Pakistan were incompatible in spite of being artificially lumped together as one nation under the umbrella of Islam.

Were the proponents of the two nation theory right about their belief that Muslims and Hindus are a separate nation? Sure.

However, they were also extremely wrong about their belief that Muslims are one nation, because they are not. When you have sociocultural differences, you are not one nation, regardless of the shared religious beliefs.

That is why the two nation theory failed and could barely lost for two decades. The fact that the Indian subcontinent is not one nation does not prove the two nation theory right.

It simply shows that the subcontinent is made up of several different nations and partition based on those national boundaries would have been more natural.

For example, south India and north India is not one nation either. Pakistan Punjab and Indian Punjab and Haryana and also the union territory of Delhi is more of a one nation than Tamil Nadu and North India.

That is a lot of text without saying much and also sidesteps the central argument.

The Two Nation Theory stated that Hindus and Muslims are two separate nations. It didn’t say all the Muslims need to be one country. If you believe that then it’s a misunderstanding on your part.

In fact in some of the early plans what became East Pakistan was proposed to be a third country anyway. So from the very start the Two Nation Theory did not necessarily mean two countries even if that’s what the eventual shape it took became.

So from that respect yes the two nation theory is valid still. Only if Bangladesh had asked to be reabsorbed into India would there be an argument to make that the Bengali Muslims do not see themselves as a separate nation from Hindus anymore and hence the Theory is not valid. That did not happen.

Keep in mind. It was these Bengali Muslims who were the foremost proponents of this Two Nation Theory.
 
This post is a good example of the mentality which has led Pakistan to being stuck exporting textiles and soccer balls. Check out the Indian offices of IBM, Microsoft, Accenture, Google etc. which employ hundreds of thousand of Indians. Why does Pakistan not have the same?

It has everything to do with the Army/ISI nurturing jihadi outfits like JEM, and the guy who kidnapped Daniel Pearl being set free. I don't have any desire to beat my head against a wall continuing to argue with you about this, but until Pakistan leaves behind its terrorist past it will not get Western FDI and will not develop modern industries.

By all means continue fooling yourself that Pakistan is in poverty because the Sharifs and the Bhuttos allegedly stole a few million dollars.

Here's more proof why Indians liked previous governments, especially NS.

https://www.dawn.com/news/1614201/ex-envoy-to-delhi-slams-nawazs-pandering-of-modi

Ex-envoy to Delhi slams Nawaz’s ‘pandering’ of Modi

NEW DELHI: Former prime minister Nawaz Sharif unilaterally pandered to Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s priorities in bilateral ties, refused to mention the Kashmir dispute in their meeting in Delhi and kept Pakistan’s envoy in New Delhi out of the loop while conducting secret talks with Mr Modi through an Indian businessman, according to former high commissioner Abdul Basit.

He told veteran anchor Karan Thapar in an interview for The Wire portal on Tuesday that Mr Sharif’s senior advisers Sartaj Aziz and Tariq Fatemi were party to the unusual approach in conducting ties behind the back of Pakistan’s envoy in New Delhi.

All of them were “pandering to India unilaterally and unconditionally,” Mr Basit said in the interview, which discussed his book Hostility, a memoir of his three years posting in India from 2014 to 2017.

Mr Aziz and Mr Fatemi, had “apologetic mind-sets” and were more keen to accept “Modi’s contentions and work quickly to assuage Modi’s concerns” rather than stand up for Pakistan’s interests, Mr Basit said. Former foreign secretary Aizaz Ahmad Chaudhry too was “brazenly apologetic and improvident” and at the time of the 2015 joint statement “wanted to deliver (to India) no matter what”.

Mr Basit said Indian businessman Sajjan Jindal played a critical role carrying secret messages bet*ween the two prime ministers, on matters ranging from meetings with Hurriyat leaders to the Kulbhushan Jadhav case. “Right from the word go Pakistan has mishandled the Kulbhushan Jadhav case,” he said and added it’s “gradually losing its credibility in the matter”.

Mr Basit spoke of how he was repeatedly and deliberately excluded from India-Pakistan meetings or communications, specifically at the behest of Prime Minister Sharif whose foreign secretary humiliated him by telling junior officers not to communicate with him without the foreign secretary’s permission. Mr Basit revealed how over the Kulbhushan Jadhav matter he received a letter of reprimand, again from a junior officer, which effectively minimised him and tied his hands.

The book will be published sometime in April but its entire contents were made available by email to Mr Thapar who said its contents were explosive.

Asked on what grounds he claimed Mr Sharif pandered to India unilaterally and unconditionally, Mr Basit said: “I watched our leader very very closely. I make this assertion on the basis of what I have seen when Nawaz Sharif came for Modi’s inauguration. It was uncalled for to unilaterally free Indian fishermen as a gesture of goodwill. At the meeting in Delhi Nawaz Sharif kept silent on Kashmir. He did not mention Kashmir even a single time. He also did not seek a meeting with Hurriyat. I had suggested he should.”

None of this is surprising. It is well known NS didn't want to mention Indian support of terrorism inside Pakistan even once. That policy alone put Pakistan many years back in building a narrative.
 
Here's more proof why Indians liked previous governments, especially NS.

https://www.dawn.com/news/1614201/ex-envoy-to-delhi-slams-nawazs-pandering-of-modi



None of this is surprising. It is well known NS didn't want to mention Indian support of terrorism inside Pakistan even once. That policy alone put Pakistan many years back in building a narrative.

Okay, fine... build your preferred narrative... don't "pander" to Modi... keep insulting him on twitter by calling him a "small man" and "Hitler"... keep making the relationship with India worse rather than better... keep supporting the jihadis who carried out the Pulwama attack... keep arming the Haqqanis... keep threatening nuclear war... all this should lead to a wonderful economic development that will leave the rest of the world amazed.
 
Since you have done work for Fortune 50 company and large banks..
I am assuming you know Finacle.. A product created by the lucky Indians in Bangalore in 1980s. Still used in almost 94+ large banks in the World.
Or Since you would have ordered food, Zomato, started by Two lucky Indians who printed out PDF's of restaurant menus and are present in 110+ countries today.
Or Isro, the lucky Indians employed there by happenstance have created Software Systems to control mission critical hardware.
PayTM, FlipKart, Oyo Rooms, Zoho.. All these guys are just lucky that some American Israeli Gods have given them the ideas to start their companies from Zero to Billion Dollars today.

It is the Jewish and Hindus who want Pakistan down, hence it has meagre IT exports of 2 Billion Dollars only. Otherwise Unlucky Pakistanis would have ruled the roost and taught Jews and Hindus a lesson in how to make first class software products.

I don't know which Fortune 50 company you had worked for but that's a ludicrous logic. You have given a cherry picked condition without the overall context behind that requirement to present your argument but it really does not say much.

No sensible person denies that there are brilliant people in almost every country Islamic , Western , Latin or Asian. But where India did different was the adoption of technology as a service at a mass level much ahead compared to other global providers. Surely there are political factors that might have gone India's way , surely there are lot of average IT resources coming out of India but what many don't realize (not your fault, you won't know this) that Indian IT services is going through a tremendous transformation in last 3-4 years and will evolve into a knowledge hub by end of this decade.

The story has been same for America and West where they went through this kind of value based evolution in late 80s-90s(they started much early). India is now going through that similar evolutionary path. There will be differential quality grades as always because of the sheer size of population but in few years time the IT industry in India will be much different (it is already now) and at par with West. Couple this with heavy investment in manufacturing of chips , electronics and nano technology I expect Indian IT and ITes to be very different by 2030.

Nah man we will be lucky Indians. Jews will share there trade secrets with us and supply us top notch technology.. Which we will copy paste and just supply it back to our overlords in America and Israel.

Then, by luck and due to propaganda by America and Israel to suppress our neighbours.. some more Billion Dollar Enterprises will flourish.
:akhtar


Jokes apart, I completely agree. TCS/Infosys/Wipro have started to understand the shift in market and react accordingly. They have the capital, so one just need to look at the strategic acquisitions made by them in America and Europe. contracts with all the major banks of the world are still getting renewed.
Indian companies must have special talent of pulling wool over the eyes of the customers.. so that they keep coming back and give million dollar contracts and hiring Indian Engineers. Black Magic !!

ha haaa
Looks like I rattled a dog cage here. Awesome!

Again, IMO, There is no God forsaken extra special talent in Indians, in general. The number of exceptions and outliers must be weighed in accordance with the population size of India.

Third class code written with IF THEN ELSE statements tangled up like a plate of noodles is your speciality. It’s everywhere. I have seen it 100s of times.

The bone was thrown at you. And that’s how it is.

Keep on justifying it and it won’t change a thing.


<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi writes a letter to Pakistani Prime Minister Imran Khan wishing the greetings on the occasion of the National Day of Pakistan. PM Modi has expressed a desire for cordial relations of India with the people of Pakistan. This is big! <a href="https://t.co/RbU58LRZtc">pic.twitter.com/RbU58LRZtc</a></p>— Wajahat Kazmi ���� (@KazmiWajahat) <a href="https://twitter.com/KazmiWajahat/status/1374393098596360195?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 23, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
.

Yeah so much for “Ghuss k maarengey”.

The current Indian ruling party is made up with some of the biggest hypocrites and serpents you will ever come across.

I am sure Pakistanis won’t fall for it; however it remains true for many Indians.
 
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That is a lot of text without saying much and also sidesteps the central argument.

The Two Nation Theory stated that Hindus and Muslims are two separate nations. It didn’t say all the Muslims need to be one country. If you believe that then it’s a misunderstanding on your part.

In fact in some of the early plans what became East Pakistan was proposed to be a third country anyway. So from the very start the Two Nation Theory did not necessarily mean two countries even if that’s what the eventual shape it took became.

So from that respect yes the two nation theory is valid still. Only if Bangladesh had asked to be reabsorbed into India would there be an argument to make that the Bengali Muslims do not see themselves as a separate nation from Hindus anymore and hence the Theory is not valid. That did not happen.

Keep in mind. It was these Bengali Muslims who were the foremost proponents of this Two Nation Theory.

The two nation theory did not consider Muslims as one country but defined them as one nation. That is the problem.

Muslims are not one nation because religious identity is not a strong enough binding force to overcome sociocultural differences.

Proponents of the two nation theory made an idealistic assumption that people can be divided on the basis of religion only.

Religious identity is part of what a nation is but it cannot be used to define a nation. This is what the proponents of the theory failed to understand and this is why it failed.
 
ha haaa
Looks like I rattled a dog cage here. Awesome!

Again, IMO, There is no God forsaken extra special talent in Indians, in general. The number of exceptions and outliers must be weighed in accordance with the population size of India.

Third class code written with IF THEN ELSE statements tangled up like a plate of noodles is your speciality. It’s everywhere. I have seen it 100s of times.

The bone was thrown at you. And that’s how it is.

Keep on justifying it and it won’t change a thing.




Yeah so much for “Ghuss k maarengey”.

The current Indian ruling party is made up with some of the biggest hypocrites and serpents you will ever come across.

I am sure Pakistanis won’t fall for it; however it remains true for many Indians.

The only cage that seems to be rattled is yours. The outliers you are talking about, can be applied to any population of any size, in any country. Even Norway and Sweden have super intelligent people and super dumb ones, and 10X Coders, and the some of the worst programmers. But to apply statistics, you need to leave your bias on the side, which unfortunately you cannot comprehend.

So now go pick up your bone, the American-Israeli-Jewish-Hindu nexus will continue to work and rake in millions of dollars of revenue and create billion dollar enterprises, Employ millions of Indians.

Another piece of nice data for you,

There are currently 6000+ European companies present in India, Employing 6.7 Million 'Low Quality Work' producing Indians, and providing them good salaries and positions at global scale.
Just go and search for Schneider Electric, a French Electrical Giant. Check their growth in number of patents applied by Indians, sitting in India.( 2 of my 15 patents are from there).

But, as usual, you are free to believe and copy paste your views in your mind, like noodling around If Then Else in your spaghetti code. Good luck with that.

So, here is an If Then Else which you will be happy with :
If "India is growing"
Then "It must be Jewish Hindu Nexus"
Else "Indians are no good."
 
ha haaa
Looks like I rattled a dog cage here. Awesome!

Again, IMO, There is no God forsaken extra special talent in Indians, in general. The number of exceptions and outliers must be weighed in accordance with the population size of India.

Third class code written with IF THEN ELSE statements tangled up like a plate of noodles is your speciality. It’s everywhere. I have seen it 100s of times.

The bone was thrown at you. And that’s how it is.

Keep on justifying it and it won’t change a thing.




Yeah so much for “Ghuss k maarengey”.

The current Indian ruling party is made up with some of the biggest hypocrites and serpents you will ever come across.

I am sure Pakistanis won’t fall for it; however it remains true for many Indians.

See if you want to stick to those remarks , it's upto you. I thought I will just give you a more balanced perspective what is actually happening on ground.

You feel Indians are the worst coders in the world and good for nothing. But then that is something that only you are aware which none of these Fortune 500 organisations have any clue. Unfortunately for these companies starting with their CIOs , Product Heads , Architect , Seniors engineers to grass root level developers all have good presense of people from India percentage wise. And inspite of having such a high percentage of talent less Indians these companies are either thriving or doing decent. Forget IT these companies now see significant presense of Indians on the business divisions employed in highly accountable positions. In 10 years time I won't be surprised if we start seeing multiple Indian CEOs across banks, legal firms, auto and pharmaceutical industry across US. That does not make any other immigrant community any less, it just conveys the hardwork that the Indian diaspora has put in over generations since their arrival in 90s-00s.

But for you it might be a Jewish conspiracy and data manipulation and you are most welcome to continue to believe that.
 
See if you want to stick to those remarks , it's upto you. I thought I will just give you a more balanced perspective what is actually happening on ground.

You feel Indians are the worst coders in the world and good for nothing. But then that is something that only you are aware which none of these Fortune 500 organisations have any clue. Unfortunately for these companies starting with their CIOs , Product Heads , Architect , Seniors engineers to grass root level developers all have good presense of people from India percentage wise. And inspite of having such a high percentage of talent less Indians these companies are either thriving or doing decent. Forget IT these companies now see significant presense of Indians on the business divisions employed in highly accountable positions. In 10 years time I won't be surprised if we start seeing multiple Indian CEOs across banks, legal firms, auto and pharmaceutical industry across US. That does not make any other immigrant community any less, it just conveys the hardwork that the Indian diaspora has put in over generations since their arrival in 90s-00s.

But for you it might be a Jewish conspiracy and data manipulation and you are most welcome to continue to believe that.

If "Indian is a CEO"
Then "Jews are Hiring Lucky Indians"
Else "Indians are worst coders"... that is the if then else he writes all day in the noodle of code, in the mind.:misbah
 
The comments and rhetoric from Indians on Social Media and even a Pakistani cricket forum sum up all I need to know. The general attitude of Indians towards Muslims and Pakistan is very hostile and negative.

Genuine Indians looking for peace or dialogue are seen as traitors.
 
The comments and rhetoric from Indians on Social Media and even a Pakistani cricket forum sum up all I need to know. The general attitude of Indians towards Muslims and Pakistan is very hostile and negative.

Genuine Indians looking for peace or dialogue are seen as traitors.

At least this thread seems to be all about some Pakistani posters denigrating Indian workers, and Indian posters responding with real world data.

Given the current situation, dialogue may be too much to expect. A couple of decades of just not trying to damage the other country may be followed by a productive dialogue.
 
India realized there was no scope for that a I guess. Bengali Muslims wanted a separate Muslim country and believed that Hindus and Muslims were separate nations as per the Two Nation Theory.

Rather Bengali Hindus were in no mood to have a muslim majority in the east.

Remember, Suharawardy had proposed a united Bengal separate from both India and Pakistan before 1947, Hindu bengalis outrightly rejected that to form a hindu majority bengal and stay with India.

Even today, immigration of illegal Bangladeshis is a big issue among the public in Bengal.
 
At least this thread seems to be all about some Pakistani posters denigrating Indian workers, and Indian posters responding with real world data.

Given the current situation, dialogue may be too much to expect. A couple of decades of just not trying to damage the other country may be followed by a productive dialogue.

Some pakistanis cannot believe how far ahead Indians are in certain field. So they invent their consipracy theories.

Pakistani companies are neither investing in India nor hiring Indians and i doubt any Indians are going to move to Pakistan to work.

Those who are capable of hiring Indians are doing so and know their worth. The pakistani dislike for Indians is hardly going to change anything as they are not the decision makers.
 
This thread sums up why Pakistan will always lag behind India. A country that can do so much with its human capital potential is feeding off scraps and will continue to do so because of its delusional thinking, victim mentality and a power-hungry military that puts its interests above national interests.

It really is a tragedy. Pakistan could have been so much more than what it has become.
 
Just remember folks, Satya Nadella and Sundar Pichai are officially American. Their native mahabharat India identifies them as Overseas Citizens of India (OCI). The Indian government and constitution do not recognise them as the sons of Indian soil which is why they have restricted rights in India.

Dumped their heritage for an Amreekan identity. Sums up what they think of India.

Tsk tsk.
 
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Indians can chest thump all they want, the fact is most Indians on PP live outside of India. Sums it up.

Why are Indians fleeing 'Incredible' India if their country is so great, full of prosperity, equality and opportunity? The answer is simple - India is a lie, myth, and an illusion.

Thank god UK gov put a restriction in workers from India in 2009.
 
Indians can chest thump all they want, the fact is most Indians on PP live outside of India. Sums it up.

Why are Indians fleeing 'Incredible' India if their country is so great, full of prosperity, equality and opportunity? The answer is simple - India is a lie, myth, and an illusion.

Thank god UK gov put a restriction in workers from India in 2009.

Agreed. This is also the reason why India still looks like Pakistan, except a slightly worse version, at least currently. This may change of course, but as long as western countries are cherry picking the best brains, you can imagine the progress will always be slow. Pakistan also suffers from the same problem so Indian posters, please don't think I am seeing this through green lens.
 
Agreed. This is also the reason why India still looks like Pakistan, except a slightly worse version, at least currently. This may change of course, but as long as western countries are cherry picking the best brains, you can imagine the progress will always be slow. Pakistan also suffers from the same problem so Indian posters, please don't think I am seeing this through green lens.

Looking at the posts of the overseas Pakistani posters in this thread, that doesn’t seem to be the case.

It appears that the western countries are cherry-picking the worst brains. While other developing countries suffer from brain-drain, Pakistan seems to be suffering from brainless-drain.
 
Indians can chest thump all they want, the fact is most Indians on PP live outside of India. Sums it up.

Why are Indians fleeing 'Incredible' India if their country is so great, full of prosperity, equality and opportunity? The answer is simple - India is a lie, myth, and an illusion.

Thank god UK gov put a restriction in workers from India in 2009.

Let's see how many of them answer this question. They are also the first ones to question the patriotism of Indians living in India whenever their opinions don't align with them. If everything is so good in India why do they leave it? :inti
 
Just remember folks, Satya Nadella and Sundar Pichai are officially American. Their native mahabharat India identifies them as Overseas Citizens of India (OCI). The Indian government and constitution do not recognise them as the sons of Indian soil which is why they have restricted rights in India.

Dumped their heritage for an Amreekan identity. Sums up what they think of India.

Tsk tsk.

That is such a dumb argument lol.

Both Satya and Sundar have had their foundational education in India and by that don’t mean primary school or high school but they were a product of Indian education system all the way till their university education.

They still fondly talk about their time spent in those top of the shelf Indian educational institutes and thank their teachers and professors and their cultural upbringing directly or indirectly.

Most times the chest thumping isn’t about how much pay cheque these CEO’s make or the power they hold individually . That is stupid and you can call out if someone says that.

it’s about the Indian education system and on top of that the work ethic and values they get from their culture which shows the world famous Indian work ethic and education system in a positive light. I would add desi there too because people from SC are usually hardworking folk but unfortunately there are some negative tropes about Pakistanis. I won’t get into that.

A topper from the top shelf Indian university and his/her equivalent from Pakistan- do the comparison who is going to be a more attractive option to the multinational. rhetorical question, you don’t even have to be embarrassed in answering that.

What passport they have or what they think about india is their personal prerogative. They don’t owe anyone anything when it comes to that. I have never heard them say anything negatively ever though in fact they only speak highly and have the best ties with the Indian government be it Modi or anyone else.

Bet 50 bucks this will go over your head but that’s ok, they say in Hindi/Urdu samajhdaar Ko ishaara kafi hai but stay in the bubble however long you want.
 
So-called Pakistanis with dual passports mocking overseas Indians. :91:

They are lucky Pakistan allows dual passports be haad if they had it pick one, they would sing ‘God Save the Queen’ and keep their maroon passports and ditch the green one.
 
Agreed. This is also the reason why India still looks like Pakistan, except a slightly worse version, at least currently. This may change of course, but as long as western countries are cherry picking the best brains, you can imagine the progress will always be slow. Pakistan also suffers from the same problem so Indian posters, please don't think I am seeing this through green lens.

Indians always compare themselves to Pakistan for self-praise and glory where as Pakistani posters never anoint Pakistan for sainthood.

To be fair, Indians have been suppressed for 1000 years. Pent up agression I suppose.
 
So-called Pakistanis with dual passports mocking overseas Indians. :91:

They are lucky Pakistan allows dual passports be haad if they had it pick one, they would sing ‘God Save the Queen’ and keep their maroon passports and ditch the green one.

Funnily enough some of these guys are 2nd 3rd Gen britshers of Pakistan origin. Not stereotyping all, there seem to be a lot of sensible ones too.

While they make fun of Sundar Pichai or Satya for apparently insulting/dissing India by becoming the CEO of Google and Microsoft respectively, no one seems to ask their own previous gens why they left Pakistan especially to the ones who migrated in the 50’s and 60’s.
 
So-called Pakistanis with dual passports mocking overseas Indians. :91:

They are lucky Pakistan allows dual passports be haad if they had it pick one, they would sing ‘God Save the Queen’ and keep their maroon passports and ditch the green one.

The new UK passports are no longer maroon, Mamoon.

:)
 
PS: Immigrants from Pakistan and India in the 50s, 60s, 70, and even 80s will happily admit they migrated for better opportunities and never pretended their country was 'incredible' at the time.

:)
 
Okay, fine... build your preferred narrative... don't "pander" to Modi... keep insulting him on twitter by calling him a "small man" and "Hitler"... keep making the relationship with India worse rather than better... keep supporting the jihadis who carried out the Pulwama attack... keep arming the Haqqanis... keep threatening nuclear war... all this should lead to a wonderful economic development that will leave the rest of the world amazed.

Of course you will cherry pick things to build your own narrative, and dismiss the corruption and their friendliness towards India of the previous government. That's what you have done. That's why your opinion cannot be taken seriously since you fail to acknowledge how it was previous government that largely caused the economic issues of today for Pakistan.
 
PS: Immigrants from Pakistan and India in the 50s, 60s, 70, and even 80s will happily admit they migrated for better opportunities and never pretended their country was 'incredible' at the time.

:)

Of course. And you would be amazed to see how well in British society some of their subsequent generations have done. The difference is, we Brits don't have a habit of shouting about it publicly on forums, it always seems absurd when I see these Indian posters displaying posters of their top CEOs at Google or wherever. You don't see native Brits doing it, and I suppose that we don't feel the need suggests we have integrated in the right ways.
 
Of course. And you would be amazed to see how well in British society some of their subsequent generations have done. The difference is, we Brits don't have a habit of shouting about it publicly on forums, it always seems absurd when I see these Indian posters displaying posters of their top CEOs at Google or wherever. You don't see native Brits doing it, and I suppose that we don't feel the need suggests we have integrated in the right ways.

I am not sure about integrating completely though yet. For example till recently I didn’t know Adil Rashid was born and brought up in England. I thought he was scouted from Pakistan domestics a la Imran Tahir.

Look at Moeen Ali and Adil, I have no doubt that they are 100% commited and give it their all for their team on the field but seems like they also come with a lots of do’s and donts like not having a label of a paying sponsor, have their own meal requirement (halal etc) , May be don’t partake in team celebrations due to involvement of alcohol and bacon or needing extra breaks for prayers etc.

I am not saying they are bad guys or evil, in fact I respect them for preserving the 1500 year old culture but when I look at them sorry “integrated into the society” is not the first thing it screams out.

I feel Monty who himself might have felt some discrimination or Bopara seem to fit in a lot more easily without any baggage.

No doubts Moeen and Adil are extremely talented cricketers due to which TM gives them some leeway to probably.
 
I am not sure about integrating completely though yet. For example till recently I didn’t know Adil Rashid was born and brought up in England. I thought he was scouted from Pakistan domestics a la Imran Tahir.

Look at Moeen Ali and Adil, I have no doubt that they are 100% commited and give it their all for their team on the field but seems like they also come with a lots of do’s and donts like not having a label of a paying sponsor, have their own meal requirement (halal etc) , May be don’t partake in team celebrations due to involvement of alcohol and bacon or needing extra breaks for prayers etc.

I am not saying they are bad guys or evil, in fact I respect them for preserving the 1500 year old culture but when I look at them sorry “integrated into the society” is not the first thing it screams out.

I feel Monty who himself might have felt some discrimination or Bopara seem to fit in a lot more easily without any baggage.

No doubts Moeen and Adil are extremely talented cricketers due to which TM gives them some leeway to probably.

If you don't drink alcohol, eat pork, refuse to wear alcohol sponsor does that mean they are not interrogated into the society?

I follow the same practices as Moeen, adil

but I am probably more ingrained into the American culture and identity than a whole lot of so called "Americans"
I played football in HS, was part of JROTC (US army reserve program), have friends from across racial lines

No where following my religion became a hindrances in my integration into the society or my patriotism towards the country

Interrogation inst about drinking, partying and getting stoned, this should never be the standard

SO you cant use the integration and religion things like that, it logic seems unfair and if followed can cause big problems in society
 
If you don't drink alcohol, eat pork, refuse to wear alcohol sponsor does that mean they are not interrogated into the society?

I follow the same practices as Moeen, adil

but I am probably more ingrained into the American culture and identity than a whole lot of so called "Americans"
I played football in HS, was part of JROTC (US army reserve program), have friends from across racial lines

No where following my religion became a hindrances in my integration into the society or my patriotism towards the country

Interrogation inst about drinking, partying and getting stoned, this should never be the standard

SO you cant use the integration and religion things like that, it logic seems unfair and if followed can cause big problems in society

I don’t drink alcohol or eat meat either but if my colleagues are going to a bar to celebrate I have no problem attending it and I don’t wash my hand or mouth, nose with acid if I accidentally smell it either.

There is a thin line between sticking to your values or making the other party so uncomfortable that they will have to make adjustments for you. That’s the difference.

Anyway we are digressing here.

Before giving lectures to Indians especially the hardworking tax paying industrious types May be pondering on the fact that Birit- Pak youth would rather join ISIS/al qaeda over the British army would be a good start before discussing integration.
 
PS: Immigrants from Pakistan and India in the 50s, 60s, 70, and even 80s will happily admit they migrated for better opportunities and never pretended their country was 'incredible' at the time.

:)

The Indian logic I have seen on this is as follows.

When Pakistanis leave Pakistan, it's because Pakistan is a third world hellhole they want to get out of.
When Indians leave India, it's because other countries allow Indians to immigrate more easily than Pakistanis, because those countries think Pakistanis are dangerous and several other reasons.

Basically, in either case, India is better. LOL. Like I have said before, I have never seen a country spin any narrative into a positive narrative for their country, except India.
 
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Of course you will cherry pick things to build your own narrative, and dismiss the corruption and their friendliness towards India of the previous government. That's what you have done. That's why your opinion cannot be taken seriously since you fail to acknowledge how it was previous government that largely caused the economic issues of today for Pakistan.

No, it was not the previous governments but the domination by the Army of civilian affairs, and the nurturing of jihadis that led to well publicized events such as the master planners of 9/11 Bin Laden and Khalid Sheik and the killers of Daniel Pearl being caught in Pakistan that led to no investment in manufacturing and services by Western multinationals.

Any money stolen by the previous governments has had a minor or no impact.

It is now going to be almost 3 years since IK came to power, and there hasn't been an inch of movement towards the development of modern industries or Western investment in Pakistan. And the story will remain the same for the rest of his term. Of course, people who think like you will find some excuse like the Jewish-Hindu axis.

If you want development for your country, follow the table in the URL below. You can see that they are all commodities or low-tech items (textiles). When the mix starts moving towards medium-tech or high-tech items, then you will know you are making progress.

http://www.worldstopexports.com/pakistans-top-10-exports/

I am an Indian, but I am giving you this essential advice that is the only way for your country to escape poverty. There is no other way.

If you can't figure out this simple truth, your country is going to remain stuck in the rut. You had to decide what you want more, economic development or excuses that make you feel good.
 
This is classic historical revisionism. Till 1947 to 1971, Pakistan was a Muslim Homeland. After 1971, Pakistan was the Indus Saga, the natural place for natives of that region. Nothing wrong with that. Each nation likes to have fond memories of itself.

Pakistan is still a Muslim homeland. Indus saga proponents only exist in posh drawing rooms and elite mehfils.
 
The new UK passports are no longer maroon, Mamoon.

:)

Whatever the color is, be it blue, pink or yellow. The reality is that pseudo Pakistanis like you and others would opt for the UK passport over the Pakistani one if given the choice.

You should be thankful that Pakistan allows you to keep two passports.
 
You need to learn the difference between Nation and Country it seems

In other words, it is important to make a distinction between nationhood and statehood. An important point. Indeed, many historians have pointed out that the Pakistan demand transcended geographic anchorage.

First, it is important to understand the background to the claim of Muslim nationhood, which was was raised and pursued by Jinnah and the Muslim League rather late in the colonial day. For many years Jinnah worked for Hindu-Muslim unity, but he was aware, as he said in a speech in 1928 that: “Minorities cannot give anything to the majority…It is up to the majority, and the majority alone can give.”

The Lahore Resolution was a rejection of the Muslim minority position. The global context cannot be ignored: the anxiety of being a minority was heightened in a context of Nazi Germany’s brutal treatment of Jews and the unravelling of legal protections for minorities that were envisaged under the League of Nations in the aftermath of the first World War.

By repudiating the notion of the Muslims being a minority and proclaiming instead that they were in fact a nation, Jinnah in effect made the case that a fair constitutional settlement had to be reached between equals. Rather than negotiating an agreement that in the end relied on the goodwill of the majority, Jinnah aimed to reframe the debate, to reach a social contract based on a relationship of equality. Jinnah - the consummate lawyer - sought, as Faisal Devji argued, to turn brotherhood into friendship; that is, transforming a relationship of blood or intimacy into one of contract or interest. He believed, the past could be buried and a fresh start made if honourable settlement was reached between equals.

Pakistan was projected as the ideal for Muslims - who were far from being united politically - to rally around. As Devji, amongst others has forcefully argued, the Pakistan demand was highly idealised, belonging not to blood and soil types of nationalism, but was rather one that was more conceptual or abstract. As an idea, its purchase rested more on it being a symbolic ideal embodying potential Muslim unity than it representing a geographically bounded entity.

Therefore, for Jinnah, as Ayesha Jalal has most clearly argued, while the claim to Muslim nationhood was no longer up for debate following the passing of the Lahore Resolution, the claim to Muslim statehood remained negotiable. So Jinnah was prepared to accept something less than a fully sovereign Pakistan, as indicated by his acceptance of the Cabinet Mission Plan in 1946, which envisaged a united India, with restricted powers for the centre. He was also willing to consider three nation-states. In 1947, when Mountbatten asked Jinnah for his view on Suhrawardy’s proposal of “keeping Bengal united at the price of its remaining outside Pakistan,” the Muslim League leader replied: “I should be delighted. What is the use of Bengal without Calcutta, they had much better remain united and independent; I am sure they would be on friendly terms with us.”
 
All eyes on Kashmir after Indian PM extends olive branch

NEW DELHI: Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi on Tuesday sent a letter to his Pakistani counterpart on the occasion of Pakistan’s Republic Day, calling for “cordial relations” between the two neighbors in a move that marks a major thaw between New Delhi and Islamabad.

The letter addressed to Prime Minister Imran Khan comes a month after both countries announced a ceasefire along the disputed border in Kashmir.

“As a neighboring country, India desires cordial relations with the people of Pakistan,” Modi wrote in the letter, adding that “an environment of trust devoid of terror and hostility is imperative.”

The two countries came close to war in early 2019 after a terror attack in South Kashmir’s Pulwama region killed more than 50 paramilitary troops.

The Feb. 14 bombing was the single deadliest attack in the divided region, and escalated tensions between India and Pakistan.

In response, India launched an airstrike against suspected militant training camps inside Pakistan, claiming to have killed “a very large number” of militants. However, Pakistan said the strike only damaged three trees in a forest.

Islamabad responded by shooting down an Indian fighter plane and capturing the pilot, who was returned to India as a peace gesture.

India has long accused Pakistan of cultivating militant groups in a proxy war against New Delhi. Pakistan denies the charge.

The relationship between the two neighbors deteriorated further after the abrogation of Kashmir’s special status.

In a dramatic move in August 2019, India scrapped the region’s constitutional autonomy and withdrew Kashmiris’ exclusive rights before placing the entire territory under a curfew for several months, denying residents their fundamental rights, and detaining hundreds of political workers and activists.

New Delhi also divided the state into two union territories: Ladakh and Jammu and Kashmir.

https://www.arabnews.com/node/1831391/world
 
Okay, fine... build your preferred narrative... don't "pander" to Modi... keep insulting him on twitter by calling him a "small man" and "Hitler"... keep making the relationship with India worse rather than better... keep supporting the jihadis who carried out the Pulwama attack... keep arming the Haqqanis... keep threatening nuclear war... all this should lead to a wonderful economic development that will leave the rest of the world amazed.

Well, strawmen and overly simplifying things are your forte. However, the following interview actually shows why India much preferred NS.

 
Well, strawmen and overly simplifying things are your forte. However, the following interview actually shows why India much preferred NS.


Okay buddy, good luck with whatever you think will work for your country. Check after ten years how much progress you have made in developing your economy with the Army/ISI/jihadis.

Not really going to spend my time watching a random video unless there is some persuasive evidence beforehand that it will not be a waste of my time.
 
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Modi already did what he wanted. Article 370 has disappeared and Kashmiris are at peace. There are many non Kashmiris settling in Kashmir and it's not even a state totally controlled by Union govt.

The next step is to capitalize on it. Start peaceful dialogue with Pakistan and give some incentives to Kashmiris from the position of strength. After the last couple of years, they will celebrate 4G for a week. It will also help India's relations with the US considering a democrat, Biden is at the helm. Pulwama to reelection to Kashmir to peace. Modi just played everybody like a fiddle.
 
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