[PICTURES/VIDEOS] Babar Azam’s failures against India

[VForVendetta]

I can understand but this is a bit skewed due to a small sample size.
Players like Ijaz, Malik, Afridi and Nazir outperformed against India and played many many bilateral games.
I rate Imam, Babar and Rizwan much higher than each one of those guys , but they have simply underperformed against India SO FAR. Given enough time and chances, the perception will also update with it.
I was surprised you mentioned Rizwan. He seems to be hated quite a lot and has already played a role in defeating India in 2 T20s in past 2 years.

Well we all have our opinions & it's not necessary that they will always be the same. Like I absolutely disagree on your opinion regarding Imam. I don't rate Imam higher than any of the guys mentioned, I see literally no logic or rational cause behind that. He is what I call an anti-impact player. All those guys consistent or not were impact players, dangerous players, could change gears at any required time. Imam is incapable of doing such. He is the biggest beneficiary of nepotism & weak culture of modern Pak cricket (post Misbah era).
I neither hate Rizwan nor worship him, he is just another guy as far as I am concerned. But the reason I took his name along with his friends is because they all tend to play a certain way. Neither of them are proactive. Irrespective of match situation or context they never go out of their comfort zone & last match was a topnotch example of that. So far he has been unable to make any impression against Ind in odi's. As for his t20 exploits the first one in the wc was a magnificent knock, but the last one that he played in asia cup, I am reluctant to give him much credit, it was a sluggish knock which was always falling behind rrr. If Nawaz hadn't played that blinder & Asif hadn't belted Kumar, Rizwan ultimately would have been held responsible for the defeat.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

No matter how many statistics you put down in front of me Babar is a rung below Kohli.

I dont need excel sheets for that.

My eyes are enough.

 

[VForVendetta]

@VForVendetta @mominsaigol you both are either lacking in the most basic English reading skills as well as computer skills or you are both being purposefully dishonest. The English skill issues is no problem, English is not my first language either, but being a liar is truly dishonorable.


Firstly, I am going to assume you have never played athletics at any high level. In every sport there are players who are good in the regular season and then fail during the playoffs when it matters most and none of them are considered GOATs. Michael Jordan would not be a GOAT if he lost in the finals, Tom Brady would not be a GOAT if he failed in the playoffs, etc. This is not some made up statistic. You pick and choose for who 'meaningless bilaterals' matter. And for Kohli you excuse the most important matches purposefully.









Absolutely embarrassing for the both of you considering it takes about 2 seconds to search and you are either too lazy or too stupid to do even that.

View attachment 137847

But, I would expect nothing less from Kamran and Umar Akmal fanboys

I do not understand why you are continuing to lie when proven wrong on multiple occasions. Here are my exact words:

I literally simply stated that a sample size of 2 matches is way too small to make any judgments. And that's why I said Vivian and Sachin are a tier above, because they performed in knockout matches while Kohli failed.


You realize that is literally what was done to Babar in this thread right? Or can you not see the irony? The original post filtered stats and managed to discover that India does not have that high of an average against Babar and then used that to say that Babar is overrated. However, in this thread you Kohli fanboys are saying that Kohli being a massive failure in knockout matches does not matter.

I just had put a simple query at you, but seems it hit a certain nerve the way you have reacted. The way you threw your toys out of the pram, the emotional outburst, the personal triade that went on & on......
One would think you are either Babar's PR manager or his babysitter! Nonetheless just to clarify I don't have basic computer facilities at the moment due to residing in a remote area(for professional reasons). So I couldn't check those numbers that you provided even if I wanted. Also I originally thought the discussion on was how much of a failure Kohli has been in icc knock out matches or in major tournaments like asia cup. Because here so far that's what always been eluded. Now I understand you are talking about all sorts of tournaments, hosted by icc or not. Which is fair enough.
Didn't get the reference to that "Akmal brothers fanboys", whether you took that aim at me or him! As far as I am concerned other than Fakhar & Shaheen I don't rate any of the current players much, only these two are genuine white ball match winners & can potentially perform against any opposition at any stage. Rest of them are minnow bashers, stat padders, cake cutters, fanboys of opposition legends, court jesters, stooges of the clique & friends circle.

 

[mominsaigol]

I just had put a simple query at you, but seems it hit a certain nerve the way you have reacted. The way you threw your toys out of the pram, the emotional outburst, the personal triade that went on & on......
One would think you are either Babar's PR manager or his babysitter! Nonetheless just to clarify I don't have basic computer facilities at the moment due to residing in a remote area(for professional reasons). So I couldn't check those numbers that you provided even if I wanted. Also I originally thought the discussion on was how much of a failure Kohli has been in icc knock out matches or in major tournaments like asia cup. Because here so far that's what always been eluded. Now I understand you are talking about all sorts of tournaments, hosted by icc or not. Which is fair enough.
Didn't get the reference to that "Akmal brothers fanboys", whether you took that aim at me or him! As far as I am concerned other than Fakhar & Shaheen I don't rate any of the current players much, only these two are genuine white ball match winners & can potentially perform against any opposition at any stage. Rest of them are minnow bashers, stat padders, cake cutters, fanboys of opposition legends, court jesters, stooges of the clique & friends circle.

The jab of umar and kamran fanboy was at me when I clearly didn't advocate those 2.

A dude named arabknight posted as to who misbah's friends were and included umar and kamran and I told him that umar and kamran hated misbah with a passion. Kamran was shoved from opening to no 7 and then discarded by misbah and umar was shoved from no 3 to 6 and then discarded by misbah because misbah's stubborn views on modern cricket was to have tuk tuk accumulators like shehzad and sahfiq at the top and power hitters at the bottom.

I even went so far as saying that umar and kamran were pure hacks and not good players but during the dark days they were done dirty, I'd rather have those 2 at opening and no 3 cause atleast they can accelerate and play upto modern standards in those days then these tuk tuk baseless anti impact players like imam.

Obviously when fakhar came and was in Red hot form amd with players like tayyab, Saim ayub waiting for their call up, we don't need these glorified hacks.

I don't see how that makes me a fanboy per say, I don't advocate umar and kamran at all, I do advocate them > Shehzad and shafiq that misbah replaced them with lol

 

[W63L35]

When Babar scores runs: It is meaningless bilateral series and the runs are 'soft'
When Kohli spends 15 years failing at all knockout matches: That doesn't matter! Look how good he is in bilateral series!

Last 4 years comparison by team - until October 9th.

 

[160KPH]

I just had put a simple query at you, but seems it hit a certain nerve the way you have reacted. The way you threw your toys out of the pram, the emotional outburst, the personal triade that went on & on......
One would think you are either Babar's PR manager or his babysitter! Nonetheless just to clarify I don't have basic computer facilities at the moment due to residing in a remote area(for professional reasons). So I couldn't check those numbers that you provided even if I wanted. Also I originally thought the discussion on was how much of a failure Kohli has been in icc knock out matches or in major tournaments like asia cup. Because here so far that's what always been eluded. Now I understand you are talking about all sorts of tournaments, hosted by icc or not. Which is fair enough.
Didn't get the reference to that "Akmal brothers fanboys", whether you took that aim at me or him! As far as I am concerned other than Fakhar & Shaheen I don't rate any of the current players much, only these two are genuine white ball match winners & can potentially perform against any opposition at any stage. Rest of them are minnow bashers, stat padders, cake cutters, fanboys of opposition legends, court jesters, stooges of the clique & friends circle.

I have nothing against either you or @mominsaigol and I think you both make good contributions. What I did not like was the insinuation that I was lying of making numbers up when these things can be easily checked and confirmed. Why would I choose to randomly make numbers up over an argument about cricket? But fair enough, maybe we were both talking past each other as you were referring to specific tournaments and I was speaking about knockout rounds overall. My apologies to @VForVendetta and @mominsaigol if that’s the misunderstanding.

Also, like I said in the thread I rate Kohli >>>Babar. I even rate Rohit >>> Babar. I think Babar is good and still has a few years left in his career to prove how good he really is. Like the other post in the thread shows, if you judged Kohli by the first 8 matches he played against Pakistan he would also be considered a failure. But later on he massively improved his record against Pakistan. Babar will have the opportunity to do the same.

 

[Farabi]

Well we all have our opinions & it's not necessary that they will always be the same. Like I absolutely disagree on your opinion regarding Imam. I don't rate Imam higher than any of the guys mentioned, I see literally no logic or rational cause behind that. He is what I call an anti-impact player. All those guys consistent or not were impact players, dangerous players, could change gears at any required time. Imam is incapable of doing such. He is the biggest beneficiary of nepotism & weak culture of modern Pak cricket (post Misbah era).
I neither hate Rizwan nor worship him, he is just another guy as far as I am concerned. But the reason I took his name along with his friends is because they all tend to play a certain way. Neither of them are proactive. Irrespective of match situation or context they never go out of their comfort zone & last match was a topnotch example of that. So far he has been unable to make any impression against Ind in odi's. As for his t20 exploits the first one in the wc was a magnificent knock, but the last one that he played in asia cup, I am reluctant to give him much credit, it was a sluggish knock which was always falling behind rrr. If Nawaz hadn't played that blinder & Asif hadn't belted Kumar, Rizwan ultimately would have been held responsible for the defeat.

Well we all have our opinions & it's not necessary that they will always be the same. Like I absolutely disagree on your opinion regarding Imam. I don't rate Imam higher than any of the guys mentioned, I see literally no logic or rational cause behind that. He is what I call an anti-impact player. All those guys consistent or not were impact players, dangerous players, could change gears at any required time. Imam is incapable of doing such. He is the biggest beneficiary of nepotism & weak culture of modern Pak cricket (post Misbah era).
I neither hate Rizwan nor worship him, he is just another guy as far as I am concerned. But the reason I took his name along with his friends is because they all tend to play a certain way. Neither of them are proactive. Irrespective of match situation or context they never go out of their comfort zone & last match was a topnotch example of that. So far he has been unable to make any impression against Ind in odi's. As for his t20 exploits the first one in the wc was a magnificent knock, but the last one that he played in asia cup, I am reluctant to give him much credit, it was a sluggish knock which was always falling behind rrr. If Nawaz hadn't played that blinder & Asif hadn't belted Kumar, Rizwan ultimately would have been held responsible for the defeat.

You are likely reacting to recent games/India-Pak games. Let’s look at some data:
Imam has 13 50+ scores in winning causes in last 3 years alone. Averages 50+ in games Pakistan has won.
Not bad at all. Pakistan batting generally struggles in consistency, so he has a role to play, and since his arrival, Pak batting has been more consistent at the cost being explosive. But that works, because this team’s target is to attack in the last 20 overs and with the ball in hand.

As for Rizwan in Asia cup. He scored 71 at a SR of 140. Not sluggish by any means.

 

[Farabi]

Last 4 years comparison by team - until October 9th.


View attachment 137849

The stats are compelling, but you wasted your effort. Naysayer padosi will jump in and say it was b or c attacks.

 

[160KPH]

No matter how many statistics you put down in front of me Babar is a rung below Kohli.

I dont need excel sheets for that.

My eyes are enough.

I think perhaps we are talking past each other. I also believe Babar is one or two levels below Kohli. My argument was only that Kohli doesn’t have an unblemished record and has faults in his record, the same way Babar has faults in his record against India. Not even the great players have perfect records so I don’t think Babar’s performances against India disqualify him from being a great player.

Kohli and Rohit are both better than Babar in LOI formats, that could change in the future depending on how Babar performs, but it is obvious at the current moment.

 

[VForVendetta]

You are likely reacting to recent games/India-Pak games. Let’s look at some data:
Imam has 13 50+ scores in winning causes in last 3 years alone. Averages 50+ in games Pakistan has won.
Not bad at all. Pakistan batting generally struggles in consistency, so he has a role to play, and since his arrival, Pak batting has been more consistent at the cost being explosive. But that works, because this team’s target is to attack in the last 20 overs and with the ball in hand.

As for Rizwan in Asia cup. He scored 71 at a SR of 140. Not sluggish by any means.

The thing with Imam is the moment he started taking part in tournaments & against full strength oppositions all of these match winning abilities magically vanished. All those numbers you posted sound mighty impresseive, but the problem is how many of those knocks were decisive? Like Abdullah /Rizwan's recent partnership or Fakhar's 180 or even Babar's 70 ball hundred against Aus last year? Did Imam play any sort of knock? Is he capable of playing such knocks? Do you trust him to make an impact if Pak chases 300+ or wants to set up a 300+? Why would any team who consider themselves one of the best & want to win world cup, carry such a man whose ceiling is always 85 from 105? See, I know almost all of those 13 50+ scores came against either minnows or second string bowlers, but I would still take them seriously if any of those were knockout punches like the above I mentioned.

Pak's original asking rate was 9 rpo, that means they had to generally bat at around 150 sr to keep things in par. So obviously Rizwan was always lagging behind. When he was dismissed, I believe Pak needed something like 36 from 18 balls, so he actually didn't help minimizing the asking rate. Pak could have potentially lost the match if Rohit hadn't made that blunder in the 19th over by bowling Kumar instead of the more potent Singh. Or it could have been over if Singh hadn't dropped Asif. The main point is Rizwan left his team at an uncertain juncture, his innings wasn't decisive enough despite spending so much time at the wicket.

 

[mominsaigol]

I have nothing against either you or @mominsaigol and I think you both make good contributions. What I did not like was the insinuation that I was lying of making numbers up when these things can be easily checked and confirmed. Why would I choose to randomly make numbers up over an argument about cricket? But fair enough, maybe we were both talking past each other as you were referring to specific tournaments and I was speaking about knockout rounds overall. My apologies to @VForVendetta and @mominsaigol if that’s the misunderstanding.

Also, like I said in the thread I rate Kohli >>>Babar. I even rate Rohit >>> Babar. I think Babar is good and still has a few years left in his career to prove how good he really is. Like the other post in the thread shows, if you judged Kohli by the first 8 matches he played against Pakistan he would also be considered a failure. But later on he massively improved his record against Pakistan. Babar will have the opportunity to do the same.

No need to apologise. Its all good broskie.

 

[Farabi]

The thing with Imam is the moment he started taking part in tournaments & against full strength oppositions all of these match winning abilities magically vanished. All those numbers you posted sound mighty impresseive, but the problem is how many of those knocks were decisive? Like Abdullah /Rizwan's recent partnership or Fakhar's 180 or even Babar's 70 ball hundred against Aus last year? Did Imam play any sort of knock? Is he capable of playing such knocks? Do you trust him to make an impact if Pak chases 300+ or wants to set up a 300+? Why would any team who consider themselves one of the best & want to win world cup, carry such a man whose ceiling is always 85 from 105? See, I know almost all of those 13 50+ scores came against either minnows or second string bowlers, but I would still take them seriously if any of those were knockout punches like the above I mentioned.

Pak's original asking rate was 9 rpo, that means they had to generally bat at around 150 sr to keep things in par. So obviously Rizwan was always lagging behind. When he was dismissed, I believe Pak needed something like 36 from 18 balls, so he actually didn't help minimizing the asking rate. Pak could have potentially lost the match if Rohit hadn't made that blunder in the 19th over by bowling Kumar instead of the more potent Singh. Or it could have been over if Singh hadn't dropped Asif. The main point is Rizwan left his team at an uncertain juncture, his innings wasn't decisive enough despite spending so much time at the wicket.

Playing against minnows/B/C is overstated and debunked on several occasions.
Imam plays pace and spin equally well, which is not common to see in openers.

The lad is least of our troubles right now. Pak can definitely test and see if upgrades are available, but I won’t lose sleep over it.

I am from generation who lived through watching Saeed, Amir S, Afridi, Nazir, T.Umar, Butt, Hafeez, A.Shahzad, Jamshed, Kamran Akmal.
Apart from Saeed, all were below par and failed more often than not. Afridi and Nazir had stage presence due to the nature of the way they played, but they have also lost Pakistan so many games by showing 0 brain cells.
Apart from Fakhar and Saeed Anwar, Imam is a pretty decent opener for Pak standards. Butt was also good in patches.
Imam is still young and his SR has been improving as well and he looks like a solid batter. Pak should back this guy.

 

[VForVendetta]

Playing against minnows/B/C is overstated and debunked on several occasions.
Imam plays pace and spin equally well, which is not common to see in openers.

The lad is least of our troubles right now. Pak can definitely test and see if upgrades are available, but I won’t lose sleep over it.

I am from generation who lived through watching Saeed, Amir S, Afridi, Nazir, T.Umar, Butt, Hafeez, A.Shahzad, Jamshed, Kamran Akmal.
Apart from Saeed, all were below par and failed more often than not. Afridi and Nazir had stage presence due to the nature of the way they played, but they have also lost Pakistan so many games by showing 0 brain cells.
Apart from Fakhar and Saeed Anwar, Imam is a pretty decent opener for Pak standards. Butt was also good in patches.
Imam is still young and his SR has been improving as well and he looks like a solid batter. Pak should back this guy.

How can a guy play pace well when he continuously gets bounced out by 125 trundlers! I would have given him some breather if it was Wood, Starc, Lockie, Rabada kinds of guys bullying him with short length. But literally any Tom, Dick & Harry can come forward & bounce him out. He can neither cut nor pull confidently. That's not a sign of someone who handles pace well.
The guys you mentioned, I saw them & lived through all of them. Without any hesitation I will put at least three more names other than Anwar whom I found better than Imam & would choose before him. Fakhar, Aamir Sohail & Butt all would get preference before Imam. Butt was horrible against SENA but he used to bully the sc neighbors, an art that seems to have gone lost amongst current players. Jamshed & Sharjeel are two guys who could have easily achieved far more if not for the criminal path they chose. Specially Sharjeel did something that no other Pak opener has even done including Anwar. That was to dominate the Aussies on their on own backyard.
Like I said earlier, our thought process regarding Imam is almost opposite, we can never agree on his true significance & worth. You think him as one of the best odi openers Pak have ever produced, I think the guy never deserved to play such high number of matches. Forget Jamshed & Sharjeel, they destroyed themselves; when guys like Haider, Haris & Ayub started to arrive they should have been tried out at least for a couple of matches. Imam should have been kept aside, if those guys failed then certainly Imam could have been reinstated.

 

[Farabi]

How can a guy play pace well when he continuously gets bounced out by 125 trundlers! I would have given him some breather if it was Wood, Starc, Lockie, Rabada kinds of guys bullying him with short length. But literally any Tom, Dick & Harry can come forward & bounce him out. He can neither cut nor pull confidently. That's not a sign of someone who handles pace well.
The guys you mentioned, I saw them & lived through all of them. Without any hesitation I will put at least three more names other than Anwar whom I found better than Imam & would choose before him. Fakhar, Aamir Sohail & Butt all would get preference before Imam. Butt was horrible against SENA but he used to bully the sc neighbors, an art that seems to have gone lost amongst current players. Jamshed & Sharjeel are two guys who could have easily achieved far more if not for the criminal path they chose. Specially Sharjeel did something that no other Pak opener has even done including Anwar. That was to dominate the Aussies on their on own backyard.
Like I said earlier, our thought process regarding Imam is almost opposite, we can never agree on his true significance & worth. You think him as one of the best odi openers Pak have ever produced, I think the guy never deserved to play such high number of matches. Forget Jamshed & Sharjeel, they destroyed themselves; when guys like Haider, Haris & Ayub started to arrive they should have been tried out at least for a couple of matches. Imam should have been kept aside, if those guys failed then certainly Imam could have been reinstated.

You are saying exaclty what I am saying right. You would pick Amir/Saeed/Fakher before Imam. This means, your best openers as of today are imam and fakher since the other are retired

Imam's issue against bouncers seems to have resurfaced recently. As for his perf against pace to date, here is the data:
In Eng 15 games, Avg 46, SR 81
In SA 8 games, Avg 51, SR 81
In Aus no games.
In NZ 1 game

Although Imam hasn't played in Aus yet, his average against Aus is 69 with SR of 87.

These numbers are not bad at all for Pakistan batting standards. I am not complaining after the dud openers I have seen all my life. Ill take the consistency and focus on the rest of the line up.

I won't comment on Sharjeel and Jamshed as they shot themselves on the foot. Mohd Haris and Haider did get chances, but they have shown that they are totally clueless in the ODI format. Saim Ayub looks like the most talented bat among the 3 but he just impressed in PSL 2022, which is too close to the WC. Saim should be developed after this world cup and if he can step up, then we can discuss Imam's future if Abdullah kicks on too.

 

[Mamoon]

Last 4 years comparison by team - until October 9th.


View attachment 137849

The obvious limitation with this table is that it doesn't tell us the squads selected by these teams.

For example, Babar scored 2 hundreds and 1 fifty against Australia (there were 3 matches not 2, you forgot to add the first ODI) against an Australian attack that didn't have Starc, Cummins and Hazlewood.

This is the type of context that is missing in this table.

 

[Mamoon]

@W63L35 @160KPH

Most of the players that you highlighted have played massive innings in Pakistan-India ODI matches at some point. So far, Babar failed to play a single significant innings. Ultimately, this big innings are what is remembered not your overall average.

The reason Babar's average vs India is highlighted is because of the fact that he has 0 big ODI knocks against them. For example, Tendulkar's average of 40 against Pakistan is lower than his career ODI average but no one cares about this number because when they think about Tendulkar, Pakistan, ODIs, the one image that stands out is his 98 (75) in the 2003 World Cup game.

That match was hyped up for 2 years, Pakistan posted what was a huge total at the time and had Wasim, Waqar and Shoaib leading the bowl and made mincemeat of them and made the total look like a stroll in the park.

Similarly, Kohli might not have an amazing average against Pakistan in ODIs but he has a World Cup hundred and a 77 where he was set for another 100 but declared himself out for no reason, perhaps he had to rush to the restroom.

In addition, his highest ODI score (183) is against Pakistan. That innings alone, just like the MCG miracle last year, is bigger than Babar's entire career so far.

Kohli has owned Pakistan a dozen times across formats. He single-handled won like 10 matches against Pakistan off the top of my head.

I will be less harsh on Babar. In fact I will not be harsh on Babar at all. All I'm asking for is one big, one match defining innings against India in ODIs. Is that too much to ask for from someone who is hailed as the best batsman in the world and king this and king that?

All the names you highlighted have at least one mammoth ODI innings in Pakistan- India matches and Babar needs to do the same. Once he does that, no one would remember or care about his overall average vs India because that one innings will define his legacy against India.

He needs his Sachin 2003 moment, or Ganguly 1998 moment, or Anwar 194 moment, or Inzamam's Karachi 2004, Yousuf's CT 2004 or Butt's 2004 BCCI Jubilee match etc.

Unfortunately, #HeCannotPlayThem.

 

[Mamoon]

Babar Fans in this thread: Babar has scored more runs and has had better tournament results recently and Kohli has been the world’s biggest choker in knockout matches throughout his whole career

Kohli Fans in this thread: : We love his vibe he’s so alpha Babar can not tie his laces

That is correct.

You also forget to mention that Babar hasn't had 0.001% of the impact Kohli has had in Pakistan-India matches and Babar would NEVER take his team over the line in a situation like this:

If one image could capture the greatness of Kohli and why Babar would never lace his boots, this would be it. This is one of the powerful images in history of cricket.

#HeCannotPlayThem

 

[Hitman]

That is correct.

You also forget to mention that Babar hasn't had 0.001% of the impact Kohli has had in Pakistan-India matches and Babar would NEVER take his team over the line in a situation like this:
View attachment 137854
If one image could capture the greatness of Kohli and why Babar would never lace his boots, this would be it. This is one of the powerful images in history of cricket.

#HeCannotPlayThem

Most people know the truth in their heart. It's because of their ego they can't confess it.

 

[TheSultan]

I really think our Pakistani fans need to pick their battles. Come on guys be serious. Arguing about knock out matches when you only have a 46 to counter is not going to cut it. Personally I don’t even remember his 46. That match was Fakhar, Hafeez, Amir. I don’t even remember Hasan Ali’s 3 wickets - the match was done)

Why can’t you just let Babar’s career play out. His comparison with Kohli should not define him. I don’t care if he’s better or worse than Kohli or ever will be.

I want him to be the best player he can be, which could be an all time great. But he’s not there yet, he has a lot of work to do. We should be encouraging him to improve. Celebrating cobbled together statistics based on a changing hypothesis to suit a particular angle is not helping.

We need to be harsh or at the very least honest with him so he has some motivation to improve.

 

[160KPH]

That is correct.

You also forget to mention that Babar hasn't had 0.001% of the impact Kohli has had in Pakistan-India matches and Babar would NEVER take his team over the line in a situation like this:
View attachment 137854
If one image could capture the greatness of Kohli and why Babar would never lace his boots, this would be it. This is one of the powerful images in history of cricket.

#HeCannotPlayThem

I agree with you that there’s no way Babar could ever have played the innings Kohli did that day. Kohli has an extra gear that Babar just doesn’t possess.

@W63L35 @160KPH

Most of the players that you highlighted have played massive innings in Pakistan-India ODI matches at some point. So far, Babar failed to play a single significant innings. Ultimately, this big innings are what is remembered not your overall average.

The reason Babar's average vs India is highlighted is because of the fact that he has 0 big ODI knocks against them. For example, Tendulkar's average of 40 against Pakistan is lower than his career ODI average but no one cares about this number because when they think about Tendulkar, Pakistan, ODIs, the one image that stands out is his 98 (75) in the 2003 World Cup game.

That match was hyped up for 2 years, Pakistan posted what was a huge total at the time and had Wasim, Waqar and Shoaib leading the bowl and made mincemeat of them and made the total look like a stroll in the park.

Similarly, Kohli might not have an amazing average against Pakistan in ODIs but he has a World Cup hundred and a 77 where he was set for another 100 but declared himself out for no reason, perhaps he had to rush to the restroom.

In addition, his highest ODI score (183) is against Pakistan. That innings alone, just like the MCG miracle last year, is bigger than Babar's entire career so far.

Kohli has owned Pakistan a dozen times across formats. He single-handled won like 10 matches against Pakistan off the top of my head.

I will be less harsh on Babar. In fact I will not be harsh on Babar at all. All I'm asking for is one big, one match defining innings against India in ODIs. Is that too much to ask for from someone who is hailed as the best batsman in the world and king this and king that?

All the names you highlighted have at least one mammoth ODI innings in Pakistan- India matches and Babar needs to do the same. Once he does that, no one would remember or care about his overall average vs India because that one innings will define his legacy against India.

He needs his Sachin 2003 moment, or Ganguly 1998 moment, or Anwar 194 moment, or Inzamam's Karachi 2004, Yousuf's CT 2004 or Butt's 2004 BCCI Jubilee match etc.

Unfortunately, #HeCannotPlayThem.

I agree with this, Babar is missing that one career defining knock where he completely dominates the opposition and single handedly wins a game. The closest is that 103* against New Zealand in a WC on a tricky pitch. But I’m saying that Babar’s poor showing against India so far shouldn’t be held against him to such an extent. As @W63L35 pointed out, Kohli also had a terrible record against Pakistan in his first 8 matches. That 183* was an aberration and was surrounded by 7 failures. Babar has time to rectify that record.

What I am arguing is that in the same manner that people forgive Kohli’s performances in knockout rounds, I’m willing to forgive Babar having a below average record against India thus far. Babar can be below Kohli’s level and still be a world class player. As pointed out above, plenty of our horrible batsmen have had a better record against India than Babar does, but no way would I take Shoaib Malik’s batting over Babar overall.

Where the major disagreement arises is that I do think Vivian Richard’s for example could play those kinds of knocks, but on top of that he could also dominate in knockout rounds. Which is the sole reason why I have Kohli below Viv and Sachin. That Sachin 98(75) against Shoaib, Wasim, and Waqar is also thus far to me a better innings than any Kohli has played in ODI World Cups. When it comes to T20s, it depends on how much you weigh them. I’m admittedly some what of a purist in this regard and don’t put much stock in them, but I think this is also entirely personal preference. Kohli is pretty clear the GOAT T20 batsmen, even without having won any trophies.

At their form for about the past 4 years as the stats above show, you have a choice between getting consistent runs from Babar or getting pretty average performances from Kohli along with a really really great performance mixed in every once in a while. The choice between the two is also personal preference. When it comes to peaks, Kohli’s peaks is so far ahead of Babar’s it’s not even worth comparing.

Babar has in my eyes not reached Javed Miandad level either. But I think in 4-5 years he will have.

 

[mominsaigol]

I really think our Pakistani fans need to pick their battles. Come on guys be serious. Arguing about knock out matches when you only have a 46 to counter is not going to cut it. Personally I don’t even remember his 46. That match was Fakhar, Hafeez, Amir. I don’t even remember Hasan Ali’s 3 wickets - the match was done)

Why can’t you just let Babar’s career play out. His comparison with Kohli should not define him. I don’t care if he’s better or worse than Kohli or ever will be.

I want him to be the best player he can be, which could be an all time great. But he’s not there yet, he has a lot of work to do. We should be encouraging him to improve. Celebrating cobbled together statistics based on a changing hypothesis to suit a particular angle is not helping.

We need to be harsh or at the very least honest with him so he has some motivation to improve.

Thing is at 28, Kohli was bullying the living crap out of Australia and at 26 he was making 350+ scores look like a walk in the park.

If anything kohli's golden days were from 24-29. Kohli is still 100% class but now at 35 he is a bit past his golden days, still class but after watching him for a few years he's mostly a Pakistan basher lol, and with other teams he contributed extremely well but the likes of Gill have been outperforming him in 2022 and in ipl.

Babar on the other hand, when will he reach his golden days exactly? A player In cricket, unless your an exception like Bradman or Tendulkar who kept getting better with age, most players regress once their 30's are hit, fakhar is getting old and it's clearly showing.

Even the best of best of players like pointing and kohli don't lose their class permanently and are still world class players but their golden days are still at their mid to late 20's.

On paper babar looks superior to kohli at the same age and innings but kohli during this time period averaged 90 while chasing and was dealing with quality attacks and making them look like calk walks. He was only a bit poor while batting first.

Now at 35, it's balanced, he's improved while batting first but the chasing aspect has regressed a bit.

 

[heddie19]

Virat won a World Cup and a champion trophy .when Babar won a World Cup then came here .btw Virat is going to win 2nd world cup in just one month ,just wait and watch.

I was talking about T20s. Check the post I replied to.
Virat and CT but Babar did not? LOL

 

[Mamoon]

You make a list of the 10 best innings Kohli has played and you realize why he is notches above Babar.

Babar simply doesn’t have it in him to replicate this performers. He should be compared to steady eddy accumulators like Amla and not batsmen like Kohli who have produced out of this world knocks across formats.

Kohli’s innings at the MCG against Pakistan last year or chasing 320 in 40 overs against prime Malinga to keep India in the tournament or 183 against prime Ajmal are bigger than Babar’s entire career so far.

 

[Buffet]

You make a list of the 10 best innings Kohli has played and you realize why he is notches above Babar.

Babar simply doesn’t have it in him to replicate this performers. He should be compared to steady eddy accumulators like Amla and not batsmen like Kohli who have produced out of this world knocks across formats.

Kohli’s innings at the MCG against Pakistan last year or chasing 320 in 40 overs against prime Malinga to keep India in the tournament or 183 against prime Ajmal are bigger than Babar’s entire career so far.

It will be interesting exercise to list top 10 combined knock by both and see if Babar gets an entry. Babar is not one knock away from getting in the top tier, he has to play many gun knocks. Even he does not play those knocks, he will go down as one the best batsmen from Pakistan.

 

[Buffet]

I wouldn't judge anyone based on performance against one opposition. I will judge them based on how they perform against good 3-4 teams taken together.

 

[W63L35]

The stats are compelling, but you wasted your effort. Naysayer padosi will jump in and say it was b or c attacks.

Who cares about padosis? It's our own fans who have very obvious double standards when it comes to comparing our own players. For example.... Misbah was hero for having a S/R of 70 in ODIs but Babar Azam should be shot for having a S/R of 90.

 

[W63L35]

@W63L35 @160KPH

Most of the players that you highlighted have played massive innings in Pakistan-India ODI matches at some point. So far, Babar failed to play a single significant innings. Ultimately, this big innings are what is remembered not your overall average.

The reason Babar's average vs India is highlighted is because of the fact that he has 0 big ODI knocks against them. For example, Tendulkar's average of 40 against Pakistan is lower than his career ODI average but no one cares about this number because when they think about Tendulkar, Pakistan, ODIs, the one image that stands out is his 98 (75) in the 2003 World Cup game.

That match was hyped up for 2 years, Pakistan posted what was a huge total at the time and had Wasim, Waqar and Shoaib leading the bowl and made mincemeat of them and made the total look like a stroll in the park.

Similarly, Kohli might not have an amazing average against Pakistan in ODIs but he has a World Cup hundred and a 77 where he was set for another 100 but declared himself out for no reason, perhaps he had to rush to the restroom.

In addition, his highest ODI score (183) is against Pakistan. That innings alone, just like the MCG miracle last year, is bigger than Babar's entire career so far.

Kohli has owned Pakistan a dozen times across formats. He single-handled won like 10 matches against Pakistan off the top of my head.

I will be less harsh on Babar. In fact I will not be harsh on Babar at all. All I'm asking for is one big, one match defining innings against India in ODIs. Is that too much to ask for from someone who is hailed as the best batsman in the world and king this and king that?

All the names you highlighted have at least one mammoth ODI innings in Pakistan- India matches and Babar needs to do the same. Once he does that, no one would remember or care about his overall average vs India because that one innings will define his legacy against India.

He needs his Sachin 2003 moment, or Ganguly 1998 moment, or Anwar 194 moment, or Inzamam's Karachi 2004, Yousuf's CT 2004 or Butt's 2004 BCCI Jubilee match etc.

Unfortunately, #HeCannotPlayThem.

Are you saying big players are defined only by one or two great innings? If Sachin did not play 98 runs innings in 2003, he would have been nobody? So then Miandad must be great only because of only ONE six that he hit in Sharja. Nothing else mattered. Right?

 

[Mamoon]

Are you saying big players are defined only by one or two great innings? If Sachin did not play 98 runs innings in 2003, he would have been nobody? So then Miandad must be great only because of only ONE six that he hit in Sharja. Nothing else mattered. Right?

For every great player, there is always one or two highlight innings that are remembered forever especially in context of a specific team.

Babar doesn’t have that big innings against India yet and he has had more than enough opportunities to produce such a knock.

His last memory with India is getting owned by Indian bowlers left right and center.

 

[Cryin Out Loud]

Are you saying big players are defined only by one or two great innings? If Sachin did not play 98 runs innings in 2003, he would have been nobody? So then Miandad must be great only because of only ONE six that he hit in Sharja. Nothing else mattered. Right?

This is an addition to what you’re saying, I’m neither refuting nor supporting your stancez.

I would say great players are defined not by an innings or one image; however only the truly great have the ability, will and talent to create such innings and images on at critical moments. The merely good players can’t do it as well.

Miandad’s one six in the final was a culmination of a great innings, from a fantastic player who throughout his career had been a thorn in India’s side. That six is a single image that faithfully represented that incredible innings and a whole career.

I saw that game live and have never forgotten it. As an Indian fan Miandad lives rent free in my head in a way l Babar never has and I suspect never will.

 

[Farabi]

For every great player, there is always one or two highlight innings that are remembered forever especially in context of a specific team.

Babar doesn’t have that big innings against India yet and he has had more than enough opportunities to produce such a knock.

His last memory with India is getting owned by Indian bowlers left right and center.

While I don’t disagree with what you’re saying from an optical perspective, in reality, it’s not true that performing against India is sign of greatness (or against Pak if you’re Indian).
1. Wahab Riaz for his Fifer in 2011 WC Semis. Not a great player by any means but an iconic spell nevertheless.
2. Sohail Khan for his 5/55 in 2015 WC. A nothing ODI bowler.
3. Junaid Khan in 2012 Aane do series.
4. Naveed Rana in 2005 Pak/India series.
5. Yasir Hameed, Shoib Malik, Butt, N.Jamshed, Kamran Akmal, and many other mediocre batters who had the better of India in many games.

I can name at least 10 mediocre Pakistani players who were poster boys of mediocrity but they have several iconic performances against India.
It’s not a reliable benchmark of greatness or handling pressure for these reasons. The best measures are still overall averages, SR, impact on knockouts.

 

[Devadwal]

Records broken by Virat Kohli today:

- Leading run scorer in ICC White Ball events.
- Joint most POTM awards in ICC events.
- 4th highest all time run scorer.
- Fastest to 26,000 runs.
- 1st Indian with 1,000 WC runs at No.3.
- Most fifty plus scores while chasing in ICC events.
- Joint 2nd most fifty plus scores in WC.
- Most fifty plus scored in ICC White Ball chases.
- 4th most fifty plus scores in internationals.
- 1st to score 1,500 runs in run chases in ICC events.

 

[W63L35]

This is an addition to what you’re saying, I’m neither refuting nor supporting your stancez.

I would say great players are defined not by an innings or one image; however only the truly great have the ability, will and talent to create such innings and images on at critical moments. The merely good players can’t do it as well.

Miandad’s one six in the final was a culmination of a great innings, from a fantastic player who throughout his career had been a thorn in India’s side. That six is a single image that faithfully represented that incredible innings and a whole career.

I saw that game live and have never forgotten it. As an Indian fan Miandad lives rent free in my head in a way l Babar never has and I suspect never will.

I replied to Mamoon's point which I thought was, that you have to play "out this world" inngins to be a great player.
You are saying incredible innings and the whole career also defines a great player.
How many cricket fan from Aus, NZ, Eng and SAF do you thing would care about Miandad Sharjah six?
Let me ask ... who do you and Mamoon think are great test players in this list ... what metrics did you guys use?

Don't forget to see Border's and Richard's records who have extremely similar stats - not forgetting Border faced WI pace battery which Richards never did.

 

[Hitman]

I replied to Mamoon's point which I thought was, that you have to play "out this world" inngins to be a great player.
You are saying incredible innings and the whole career also defines a great player.
How many cricket fan from Aus, NZ, Eng and SAF do you thing would care about Miandad Sharjah six?
Let me ask ... who do you and Mamoon think are great test players in this list ... what metrics did you guys use?

Don't forget to see Border's and Richard's records who have extremely similar stats - not forgetting Border faced WI pace battery which Richards never did.

View attachment 137897

Not when you compare their strike rates. Border accumulated runs, Richards tore apart attacks.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

As I said, to the naked eye Babar is good.

He is like the appetizer in a 4 course meal.

You enjoy the appetizer of the 4 course meal, but thats not what you signed up to eat.

 

[W63L35]

Not when you compare their strike rates. Border accumulated runs, Richards tore apart attacks.

You logic proves that Afridi was much better test batsman than KL Raul.

 

[160KPH]

You don't get the "impact" concept do you? It appears averages are more important to you, and I am glad Babar is making you feel better.

Impact is a made up concept so people can pick and choose which players they like based on their emotional attachment to the player. I care about runs and the speed at which they come.

 

[W63L35]

Like your data-driven approach. No comparison here based on data as Babar is miles ahead at the same stage. Surprisingly, after 11 ODI games, even Kohli had a mediocre record against Pak with avg of 37 vs 31 for Babar.

Then it all boils down to opinions and biases. The reason people hate concrete evidence (numbers/stats) because they belittle their opinions and biases.

 

[W63L35]

Impact is a made up concept so people can pick and choose which players they like based on their emotional attachment to the player. I care about runs and the speed at which they come.

Exactly!

On a scorecard, if a team wins by one run even if the last run came with a wide ball or bye. That is numbers... all opinions, biases, emotional attachements do not matter more than that one extra run which won you a big match.

 

[160KPH]

I think one argument that can be made is Kohli went on a great purple patch after and greatly improved his record, but one thing that is basically undeniable is at the same points in their career - Babar is a much much better batsman. For all we know, Babar might have a purple patch and go even one step ahead in the next few years.

 

[160KPH]

I do understand Indian fans belittling Babar but when Babar is put down by Pakistani fans (espcially who used to worship Misbah - the ODI batsman), I do not understand at all.

I never understood it! We were finally given a world class batsmen after so many years and it seems that all he ever gets is hate.

 

[Hitman]

You logic proves that Afridi was much better test batsman than KL Raul.
View attachment 137902

K.L. Rahul has been a joke in the Test format till now.

 

[Itachi]

Impact is a made up concept so people can pick and choose which players they like based on their emotional attachment to the player. I care about runs and the speed at which they come.

It's the subjective factor which makes human.... Human.

You may meet lots of girls in your life but among them, a few will make an impact which makes you notice them and earns a place in your memory. It could be her smile even with the crooked teeth, or the eyes which may not be the most beautiful in the world but tells you a story when she smiles.....

The people who will be doing stats will always be seeing numbers and find that ecstacy in those numbers. We, on the other hand, dive in to context which stats can not reflect.

That's not your fault though. That's just limitation of statistics which no one can overcome.

 

[160KPH]

It's the subjective factor which makes human.... Human.

You may meet lots of girls in your life but among them, a few will make an impact which makes you notice them and earns a place in your memory. It could be her smile even with the crooked teeth, or the eyes which may not be the most beautiful in the world but tells you a story when she smiles.....

The people who will be doing stats will always be seeing numbers and find that ecstacy in those numbers. We, on the other hand, dive in to context which stats can not reflect.

That's not your fault though. That's just limitation of statistics which no one can overcome.

We can’t measure love.. but we can certainly measure runs

I agree there are moments of excitement we can’t measure with just numbers. For example, that Wahab Riaz spell to Shane Watson gave me a feeling that almost no other spell has ever made me feel. We were on the attack if felt like Wahab was on the verge of tearing through the entire opposition.

But at times our emotions can also be incredibly deceiving. We can think something is greater than it is just because of our emotions.

 

[Farabi]

Then it all boils down to opinions and biases. The reason people hate concrete evidence (numbers/stats) because they belittle their opinions and biases.

You’re giving way too much credit. Data-driven thinking comes from understanding what data is in the first place. Most people don’t understand how stats work and misinterpret data all the time

 

[Itachi]

I have seen that you are comparing Kohli Babar Sachin using stats, are you taking era differences into consideration?
Do you know how odi cricket has changed after 2015?
Comparing Babars stats to Sachin and Kohli is illogical.

W63L35 was indeed the stats guru back on the days. He also used to bring context in to the stats (look at his old threads) and used to measure stats against it. Since stats without context is meaningless, his posts indeed were rare of a kind since he did try to mitigate the weaknesses that stats have.

Then went in to hibernation.

Post hibernation, it feels like someone took over his account and pushing biased stats. It didn't use to be.

 

[Itachi]

We can’t measure love.. but we can certainly measure runs

I agree there are moments of excitement we can’t measure with just numbers. For example, that Wahab Riaz spell to Shane Watson gave me a feeling that almost no other spell has ever made me feel. We were on the attack if felt like Wahab was on the verge of tearing through the entire opposition.

But at times our emotions can also be incredibly deceiving. We can think something is greater than it is just because of our emotions.

Will you say stats are NOT equally deceiving as emotions if someone wishes to manipulate that way?

 

[160KPH]

Will you say stats are NOT equally deceiving as emotions if someone wishes to manipulate that way?

Stats can certainly be deceiving - but at least they’re quantifiable and consistent. We all have the same stats and we can argue about how they make them less responsive to bias. But if we are going by emotion - then whose emotion are we going by exactly? My emotions or your emotions? What if I were to tell you that watching Kohli is boring while watching Babar is exciting?

 

[Farabi]

I have seen that you are comparing Kohli Babar Sachin using stats, are you taking era differences into consideration?
Do you know how odi cricket has changed after 2015?
Comparing Babars stats to Sachin and Kohli is illogical.

That’s totally fair.
Another aspect of the context Kohli benefits from were the other batters around him. Sachin, Sehwag etc not just to keep opposition under pressure but also for guidance.
Whereas Babar has been expected to do both from day, that too away, since there have been no home games

 

[Savak]

Kohlis grooming, game awareness, tactical nouse, ability to change gears depending on game situation is on another level.

Babar is with zero personality and Pakistan made him a all powerful captain for 3-4 years. You will see the difference if you interview both these individuals side by side.

 

[Itachi]

Stats can certainly be deceiving - but at least they’re quantifiable and consistent. We all have the same stats and we can argue about how they make them less responsive to bias. But if we are going by emotion - then whose emotion are we going by exactly? My emotions or your emotions? What if I were to tell you that watching Kohli is boring while watching Babar is exciting?

Then how will you realize the "potential" of a player?

Stats and potential can be two very different aspects which has been shown time and time.

 

[Front Foot Pull]

Bowling average in england:
ollie robinson - 20.2
jofra archer - 26.9

robinson is a brilliant bowler in england.

 

[160KPH]

India went to England and played 4 matches .Eng toured pak and played on Phattas where run rate was abnormal.

Unfortunately you exposed yourself. All of the stats I posted are from matches in England.

 

[160KPH]

What @Front Foot Pull did was basically remove all of bowlers that Kohli failed against in order to boost his average when it's way more simple than that. In an innings in England against England, Babar scores about double the runs on average. If you're playing in a Test match against Anderson and Broad for example, I am not really sure what difference it makes if you get out to Anderson or to Broad? What matters how many runs you score across the match.

 

[Vikram1989]

Unfortunately you exposed yourself. All of the stats I posted are from matches in England.

Can u pls post the when did pakistan toured England in 2022.

Can u post the match dates and help us.?

 

[VForVendetta]

@Front Foot Pull some interesting numbers you have pulled out. It actually supports the point that I have been making for a while. That Babar's true weakness isn't against spin but quality pace, those numbers against the top SENA fast bowlers of last one decade does prove my theory. Even though I didn't dig too many datas. I had my point simply based on what I saw with naked eyes. His tendency to generally lose his shape while trying to attack & going into shell are the reasons I was convinced he is not that good against pace.

 

[Farabi]

From the last 6 years or so Indian test tracks are an ultimate challenge for any batsman around the world. any good runs scored on them, should be appreciated even more. meanwhile babar can feat on the pak roads, even if it means there are more draw matches.
laughing at myself for spending so much time to compare these two. i am out.

Why are Indian test tracks an ultimate challenge? What’s the basis for it?
Home tracks are biggest advantage in test cricket because of all the FC practice, the reactions are attuned to this conditions. And this game is all reactions

 

[jnaveen1980]

If we are going to use 2 match sample Dhawan > Babar/Kohli in NZ lol This is getting comical. avge can be achieved many ways without scoring even a single 100. Just by remaining not out. He needs atleast 5 years worth of cricket more before being compared with anyone from the past.

 

[WengerOut]

Why are Indian test tracks an ultimate challenge? What’s the basis for it?
Home tracks are biggest advantage in test cricket because of all the FC practice, the reactions are attuned to this conditions. And this game is all reactions

Indian team dont play FC these days.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Why are Indian test tracks an ultimate challenge? What’s the basis for it?
Home tracks are biggest advantage in test cricket because of all the FC practice, the reactions are attuned to this conditions. And this game is all reactions

He is correct. Last 3 years India is the hardest place to score runs,

This is overall average in the last 3 years

 

[160KPH]

If we are going to use 2 match sample Dhawan > Babar/Kohli in NZ lol This is getting comical. avge can be achieved many ways without scoring even a single 100. Just by remaining not out. He needs atleast 5 years worth of cricket more before being compared with anyone from the past.

It was the other poster's decision to mention New Zealand, not mine. But you can't say that Babar has a worse record than Kohli in New Zealand when Babar has played less and averages more. If anything, I would just say it's too early to say who is better in New Zealand.

Babar currently has a low sample size in all away tours as he's really only got to play one for each country so far.

 

[jnaveen1980]

It was the other poster's decision to mention New Zealand, not mine. But you can't say that Babar has a worse record than Kohli in New Zealand when Babar has played less and averages more. If anything, I would just say it's too early to say who is better in New Zealand.

Babar currently has a low sample size in all away tours as he's really only got to play one for each country so far.

Is he ready to be compared with someone who has played over a decade? Absolutely not. It is done more to build a brand for Babar basically his sponsors are trying to clone their own Kohli. He neither has the personality nor the aura to reach that level. Atleast yet. So they use these fake twitter accounts and incessantly bombard everyone with tweets hyping Babar. Unfortunately some true cricket fans start to believe it is true. If they want to build a brand for Rizwan they will immediately start throwing comparisons with MSD. MSd after 10 matches , Rizwan after 10 matches. These may fool casual cricket fans. Serious cricket fans know how to distinguish.

 

[160KPH]

He is correct. Last 3 years India is the hardest place to score runs,

This is overall average in the last 3 years

During the last 3 years, when you're saying India was the hardest place to score runs, Kohli only averaged 34.47 in India at home. So is your argument that most of Kohli's runs at home were scored when it was an easier place to bat?

 

[jnaveen1980]

During the last 3 years, when you're saying India was the hardest place to score runs, Kohli only averaged 34.47 in India at home. So is your argument that most of Kohli's runs at home were scored when it was an easier place to bat?

Not really. lol Just because it was the hardest in last 3 years it doesn't mean it was the easiest before. If you expand for 5 years. It is the second hardest behind South Africa. It is always going to be harder to score runs there given that none of these guys play first class and on a turning track it is quiet a challenge. This is why Rohit's game at home is rated very very highly. He scored some outstanding runs on some of the unplayable tracks.

 

[160KPH]

Is he ready to be compared with someone who has played over a decade? Absolutely not. It is done more to build a brand for Babar basically his sponsors are trying to clone their own Kohli. He neither has the personality nor the aura to reach that level. Atleast yet. So they use these fake twitter accounts and incessantly bombard everyone with tweets hyping Babar. Unfortunately some true cricket fans start to believe it is true. If they want to build a brand for Rizwan they will immediately start throwing comparisons with MSD. MSd after 10 matches , Rizwan after 10 matches. These may fool casual cricket fans. Serious cricket fans know how to distinguish.

Of course not. All we can say compare is them at their respective ages and their relative experience, e.g. how good Kohli was at 29 vs Babar at 29 or how good Kohli was through his first 100 matches vs Babar's 100 matches. At the present moment, Kohli is obviously 10x better than Babar if you consider the full record. But Kohli only really made his record so great when he was past the age of 29. Let us see what Babar does across the next few years.

"Personality" and "aura" do not factor into my analysis of what makes a good batsmen. I do not think Kohli gets points for being a better batsmen because he is better at speaking English and has a better beard than Babar lol.

 

[Farabi]

Indian team dont play FC these days.

So they get selected in tests directly after playing in gully mohalla.
Now I feel like I wasted last 30 mins

 

[Farabi]

He is correct. Last 3 years India is the hardest place to score runs,

This is overall average in the last 3 years

What is the batting average of Indians vs non Indians in India. what is the break up

 

[Farabi]

During the last 3 years, when you're saying India was the hardest place to score runs, Kohli only averaged 34.47 in India at home. So is your argument that most of Kohli's runs at home were scored when it was an easier place to bat?

This poster is MVP. He actually knows how to use data and stats.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Of course not. All we can say compare is them at their respective ages and their relative experience, e.g. how good Kohli was at 29 vs Babar at 29 or how good Kohli was through his first 100 matches vs Babar's 100 matches. At the present moment, Kohli is obviously 10x better than Babar if you consider the full record. But Kohli only really made his record so great when he was past the age of 29. Let us see what Babar does across the next few years.

"Personality" and "aura" do not factor into my analysis of what makes a good batsmen. I do not think Kohli gets points for being a better batsmen because he is better at speaking English and has a better beard than Babar lol.

Way too early to be compared with him. His actual counter part is KL Rahul. Both played against each other in under-19 world cup. Assuming Babar's age is accurate he is the guy that Babar should be compared with.

 

[jnaveen1980]

What is the batting average of Indians vs non Indians in India. what is the break up

32 vs 20. India is still 5th or 6th in the country list.

 

[160KPH]

Can u pls post the when did pakistan toured England in 2022.

Can u post the match dates and help us.?

I meant to say the stats are from Pakistan’s tour of England in 2020, and Kohli’s tour of England in 2021. Thank you for the correction. I think it proves the point even more since Anderson and Broad were even younger lol

 

[WengerOut]

So they get selected in tests directly after playing in gully mohalla.
Now I feel like I wasted last 30 mins

Test team has been settled for the last 8 odd years dude.

 

[Farabi]

Test team has been settled for the last 8 odd years dude.

how were they originally selected 8 or whatever years ago? On what performances? Where did they prove themselves

 

[jnaveen1980]

Host Country​	Home Team​	Away Team​
New zealand​	42.50​	27.53​
Australia​	39.45​	22.96​
Sri Lanka​	36.81​	31.27​
Pakistan​	36.36​	41.01​
England​	33.66​	29.54​
India​	32.38​	20.36​
SA​	32.19​	20.84​
Bangladesh​	29.80​	34.34​
West Indies​	21.34​	30.59​

 

[Vikram1989]

how were they originally selected 8 or whatever years ago? On what performances? Where did they prove themselves

He is saying after a multi format player got selected in to Indian team and playing multi formats will prevent players from playing in first class matches.Test only format players will play first class games like aswin,pujara ,rahane etc

 

[WengerOut]

how were they originally selected 8 or whatever years ago? On what performances? Where did they prove themselves

Playing FC. But that is not the point. Pitches have been raging turners since 2015 SA series barring 1 or 2 occassions. And these guys never played FC cricket after that. I think Kohli last played in 2012 which was like another era.

 

[BouncerGuy]

Note:
Guys this thread is about Babar against India. Please stay on topic. All unrelated stuff will be removed now.

 

[par]

Exactly!

On a scorecard, if a team wins by one run even if the last run came with a wide ball or bye. That is numbers... all opinions, biases, emotional attachements do not matter more than that one extra run which won you a big match.

Correct. You can't argue with hard numbers.

Babar Azam with a W/L ratio of 2.18 is the greatest captain Pakistan ever produced in ODIs. Even Imran Khan (1.27) is nowhere close.

 

[Mesozoic]

Why are Indian test tracks an ultimate challenge? What’s the basis for it?
Home tracks are biggest advantage in test cricket because of all the FC practice, the reactions are attuned to this conditions. And this game is all reactions

You're deluding yourselves if you think a Virat Kohli will find it easier to bat on a Nagpur rank turner than on a Rawalpindi highway just because it's a "home track".

Logic..... Meet.... You.

 

[Farabi]

You're deluding yourselves if you think a Virat Kohli will find it easier to bat on a Nagpur rank turner than on a Rawalpindi highway just because it's a "home track".

Logic..... Meet.... You.

Nope. I am saying that playing at home is always an advantage vs playing away

 

[Mesozoic]

Nope. I am saying that playing at home is always an advantage vs playing away

Yeah I know what you said. Now answer me this....

Will Virat Kohli find it easier to bat on a rank turner in Nagpur or a typical Rawalpindi highway in Pakistan ?