PM Imran Khan at the UNGA: Incentivising Taliban will be win-win for all

[ahsan17]

Where in my post I talked anything about Pakistan?

Who does "you" in "taking care of you" refer to? And whom are you referring to as "your son"?

 

[Itachi]

Who does "you" in "taking care of you" refer to? And whom are you referring to as "your son"?

Afghanistan of course. What Pakistan has got to do with it?

The uncontrolled son will be extremists in Afghanistan who would go to any length to establish their agendas.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

1. Taliban has the ability to "maintain" a country. Are you sure about that? It's easy to conquer than to keep an equilibrium.

I think they will do a better job than the previous government. Taliban control more of Afghanistan than they did before 9/11. Russia and China seem ok with their rule, they have kept their embassies open, which means they wont back the Northern Alliance. If they dont oppress the Shias then Iran should accept their rule as well.

I just dont see any other group in Afghanistan being able to topple them in the immediate future.

2. Which fraction of groups you are referring as the terrorists?

ISIS, or any other group that wishes to attack other countries using Afghan soil. Taliban only want to rule Afghanistan.

 

[Napa]

Pakistan was getting millions of dollars for providing transit routes for western forces, but that came at a massive cost in lives and Pakistan's own reputation when America used drones on Pakistani territory. USA's war with Afghanistan cost the country far more than it earned from transit routes.

IMF loans vs Chinese loans can't be looked at in such a narrow view. Chinese loans are going towards building Pakistan infrastructure with the aim of opening trade routes throughout Asia. I would imagine the the thought process would be the increase in trade will pay for the loans whereas the IMF loan repayments were just an ever increasing drain with no upside.

Trade routes will not earn Pakistan money, much cheaper alternative routes exist by sea, as Sri Lanka found out with the Chinese funded Hambantota International Port.

You can have an infrastructure of roads but what you need are modern factories that use those roads. And modern factories need to be financed by the Western firms.

One important thing is missed by people who expect Chinese investment will lead to economic development. China already has abundant cheap labor, so their investments are not geared towards setting up manufacturing capability that will employ local people. Rather their investments are directed towards extracting raw materials (like in Africa) and selling their infrastructure (roads and power plants in Pakistan).

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Trade routes will not earn Pakistan money, much cheaper alternative routes exist by sea, as Sri Lanka found out with the Chinese funded Hambantota International Port.

You can have an infrastructure of roads but what you need are modern factories that use those roads. And modern factories need to be financed by the Western firms.

One important thing is missed by people who expect Chinese investment will lead to economic development. China already has abundant cheap labor, so their investments are not geared towards setting up manufacturing capability that will employ local people. Rather their investments are directed towards extracting raw materials (like in Africa) and selling their infrastructure (roads and power plants in Pakistan).

Sea routes will get the products to the ports, you still need roads to get products to their final destination. Using Sri Lanka as an example doesn't really work, not every country shares Sri Lanka's access to sea routes. Why didn't the US use Sri Lanka's sea routes for transit into Afghanistan rather than pay Pakistan for use of their roads if it was that simple?

Obviously China will look to make capital from investing in infrastructure, but that doesn't mean that Pakistan and other countries involved can't use that infrastructure to improve their own trade independently. Or maybe you think only Indian view is unbiased and the rest of these countries signing up are just plain stupid.

 

[Napa]

Sea routes will get the products to the ports, you still need roads to get products to their final destination. Using Sri Lanka as an example doesn't really work, not every country shares Sri Lanka's access to sea routes. Why didn't the US use Sri Lanka's sea routes for transit into Afghanistan rather than pay Pakistan for use of their roads if it was that simple?

Sure, the BRI infrastructure in Pakistan can be used for sending goods to the 5 stans (Afg, Uzbek, Turkmen etc.). The question is how profitable that infrastructure will be? Time will tell, stay tuned.

Obviously China will look to make capital from investing in infrastructure, but that doesn't mean that Pakistan and other countries involved can't use that infrastructure to improve their own trade independently. Or maybe you think only Indian view is unbiased and the rest of these countries signing up are just plain stupid.

There are non-economic reasons for joining China's BRI. Thanks to the antics of Army/ISI, Pakistan has been left with an underdeveloped economy (having fallen far behind Bangladesh at this point). This has led it to become China's lapdog, there was no way it could have said "no" to BRI when Xi proposed it.

Again, time will tell whether the infrastructure investment by China in Pakistan will lead to the development of modern industries in Pakistan.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Sure, the BRI infrastructure in Pakistan can be used for sending goods to the 5 stans (Afg, Uzbek, Turkmen etc.). The question is how profitable that infrastructure will be? Time will tell, stay tuned.



There are non-economic reasons for joining China's BRI. Thanks to the antics of Army/ISI, Pakistan has been left with an underdeveloped economy (having fallen far behind Bangladesh at this point). This has led it to become China's lapdog, there was no way it could have said "no" to BRI when Xi proposed it.

Again, time will tell whether the infrastructure investment by China in Pakistan will lead to the development of modern industries in Pakistan.

At this point when the discussion has plunged into nationalistic put downs such as Army/ISI antics = China's lapdog then it's not really worth responding. Perhaps if it wasn't coming from a Modi disciple who is taking India back to hindu glory eras imagined or real, I could take you more seriously.

 

[Napa]

At this point when the discussion has plunged into nationalistic put downs such as Army/ISI antics = China's lapdog then it's not really worth responding. Perhaps if it wasn't coming from a Modi disciple who is taking India back to hindu glory eras imagined or real, I could take you more seriously.

Come back to this thread in 2 to 5 years and see which one of us was right about the impact of Chinese investment.

I know you are triggered by some of the things I said, but unfortunately for the country you are rooting for, they are true. If you want Pakistan to progress, don't get triggered, rather find a practical path forward. My message may have been harshly worded, but the message is true.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Come back to this thread in 2 to 5 years and see which one of us was right about the impact of Chinese investment.

I know you are triggered by some of the things I said, but unfortunately for the country you are rooting for, they are true. If you want Pakistan to progress, don't get triggered, rather find a practical path forward. My message may have been harshly worded, but the message is true.

Don't shoot the messenger just because i said Modi will take India backwards, I would have said the same thing if Taliban took over Pakistan. I have made these same points before in calls for secularising of Pakistani constitution.

I'm sorry, but I find it hard to take Indian viewpoints about modernity and progress seriously when they are voting for a hindutva revivalist party. Don't take it personally, it's just a general view which applies to all posters here.

 

[Napa]

Don't shoot the messenger just because i said Modi will take India backwards, I would have said the same thing if Taliban took over Pakistan. I have made these same points before in calls for secularising of Pakistani constitution.

I'm sorry, but I find it hard to take Indian viewpoints about modernity and progress seriously when they are voting for a hindutva revivalist party. Don't take it personally, it's just a general view which applies to all posters here.

These are news items about two neighboring countries A and B. Decide for yourself which economy is progressing and which one is going backwards. If you want to fix a problem, you cannot ignore facts from the real world.

Country A

1. A's forex reserves have increased from $400 billion to $640 billion over the last 2 years https://tradingeconomics.com/india/f...hange-reserves

2. "A attracts FDI inflow of 27.37 billion dollar during first four months of this financial year". More than double that for the previous financial year. https://newsonair.com/2021/09/22/ind...nancial-year/?

3. New areas of the economy are doing well
"A's got the next big thing in tech, and it could be worth $1 trillion"
https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/09/tech/...hnk/index.html

Country B

1) B Among Top 10 Nations With Largest External Debt Stocks: World Bank Report
https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/pak...xternal-debt-stocks-world-bank-report-2573159

2) B's LNG did not receive any offers in a tender seeking eight liquefied natural gas (LNG) cargoes for delivery over December to January, raising concerns about a potential power crisis in the South Asian country.
https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/pak...-offers-for-spot-tender-for-winter-2021-10-11

3) B’s Shameful Glee at the Taliban’s Rise
https://thediplomat.com/2021/09/pakistans-shameful-glee-at-the-talibans-rise/
[MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION] [MENTION=151383]Local.Dada[/MENTION]

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

These are news items about two neighboring countries A and B. Decide for yourself which economy is progressing and which one is going backwards. If you want to fix a problem, you cannot ignore facts from the real world.

Country A

1. A's forex reserves have increased from $400 billion to $640 billion over the last 2 years https://tradingeconomics.com/india/f...hange-reserves

2. "A attracts FDI inflow of 27.37 billion dollar during first four months of this financial year". More than double that for the previous financial year. https://newsonair.com/2021/09/22/ind...nancial-year/?

3. New areas of the economy are doing well
"A's got the next big thing in tech, and it could be worth $1 trillion"
https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/09/tech/...hnk/index.html

Country B

1) B Among Top 10 Nations With Largest External Debt Stocks: World Bank Report
https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/pak...xternal-debt-stocks-world-bank-report-2573159

2) B's LNG did not receive any offers in a tender seeking eight liquefied natural gas (LNG) cargoes for delivery over December to January, raising concerns about a potential power crisis in the South Asian country.
https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/pak...-offers-for-spot-tender-for-winter-2021-10-11

3) B’s Shameful Glee at the Taliban’s Rise
https://thediplomat.com/2021/09/pakistans-shameful-glee-at-the-talibans-rise/
[MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION] [MENTION=151383]Local.Dada[/MENTION]

But I'm not arguing that neighbouring country A or B is doing better or worse, my point is that country B is now following the same path as country A, that will cause the same problems down the line as country A is experiencing. It's a slippery slope and downhill when you adopt this sort of regressive mindset. We will only see the effects a couple of decades down the line.

 

[Local.Dada]

Don't shoot the messenger just because i said Modi will take India backwards, I would have said the same thing if Taliban took over Pakistan. I have made these same points before in calls for secularising of Pakistani constitution.

I'm sorry, but I find it hard to take Indian viewpoints about modernity and progress seriously when they are voting for a hindutva revivalist party. Don't take it personally, it's just a general view which applies to all posters here.

India doesn’t work that way. Just FYI the so called Hindutva party has ruled india from 1999-2004, Modi was not randomly selected from somewhere. He was CM of Gujarat one of the most prosperous states of India for 12 years. Gujarat only progressed now if that was organic or did Modi had anything to do with it that’s debatable, however that addresses your point that it isn’t all doom and gloom just because Modi is the leader.

General view is fine as long as there is some research and a well formed thought, not random hearsay.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

India doesn’t work that way. Just FYI the so called Hindutva party has ruled india from 1999-2004, Modi was not randomly selected from somewhere. He was CM of Gujarat one of the most prosperous states of India for 12 years. Gujarat only progressed now if that was organic or did Modi had anything to do with it that’s debatable, however that addresses your point that it isn’t all doom and gloom just because Modi is the leader.

General view is fine as long as there is some research and a well formed thought, not random hearsay.

It doesn't address my point, Modi stands for something, you can call it "so called hindutva" if you like, but what he stands for is not that difficult to see when you see his history and the people he surrounds himself with. You can dress it up as something else but ultimately when you give yourself an identity, at some point you have to prove to your followers you are representing it. Hence masjids demolished, beef bans, film bans, book bans etc. These are the inevitable outcomes of this ideology, if you think that sort of mindset is good for business fair enough.

 

[Napa]

India doesn’t work that way. Just FYI the <b>so called Hindutva party </b>has ruled india from 1999-2004, Modi was not randomly selected from somewhere. He was CM of Gujarat one of the most prosperous states of India for 12 years. Gujarat only progressed now if that was organic or did Modi had anything to do with it that’s debatable, however that addresses your point that it isn’t all doom and gloom just because Modi is the leader.

General view is fine as long as there is some research and a well formed thought, not random hearsay.

IK regularly tweets praising Islam, much more than Modi tweets about Hinduism. Is PTI an Islamist party?

 

[Local.Dada]

IK regularly tweets praising Islam, much more than Modi tweets about Hinduism. Is PTI an Islamist party?

Tough to say. Rest of the world has left and right ideologies. Let’s say BJP vs others, Democrats vs Republicans etc etc but it’s confusing when it comes to Pakistan. May be our friends can break it down for us.

Given IK’s background as an Oxford (or was it Cambridge?) alumni, a socialite in parties and other exploits I thought he would be what they call liberal/left wing but then he tweets about religion, Taliban rights etc so maybe he is right wing but on the flip side Nawaz’s party is called Muslim league (not sure any affiliation with the original one) and Bhutto party was the one that originally started the Islamization so not sure if there is any ideological differences in Pakistan democracy which I guess is a new concept in Pakistan anyways and I mean this with all due respect based on my understanding of Pak history.