Protest over image of Prophet Mohammed shown in a UK class 'unacceptable', say education officials

[El Generico]

I do recognize when someone is a religious extremist and realize that its pointless to engage with them because they are incapable of having a intelligent discussion.

This is pretty ironic. Majority of your posts on any topic are basically copy pasted from far right rhetoric and you are calling others extreme lol. IIRC you also attacked the BLM protests and defend militant groups like the proud boys.

It’s pretty obvious who the extremist is

 

[Saj]

Guys stick to the topic.

Thanks

 

[Romali_rotti]

This is Britain not Gujarat mate. RIP Ehsan Jafri.

Jafra was an unfortunate incident bro, its terrible, I admit. However Muslims started the violence bro, when they burned down a train carriage full of Hindus for no reason. Here it is different, no violence was started, it is just a cartoon, gotta compare apples with apples bro..



Because we are talking about muslims that could be fanatic, as you remember a guy's head got taken in France not so long ago for talking about Muhammad.

Didn't a British Soldier in UK also got his head taken? Cant remember what it was for, there was a muslim connection if I remember correctly..

Anyway moral of the story is certain Muslims like to go head hunting for not so big reasons, if you know what I mean..

 

[Romali_rotti]

People will make fun and criticize our religion

It's our job to respond to it and have a diolague and if it's a fool making a cartoon than ignore him for a fool he is

It's part of our evolution as a religion and we need to adapt with it

Society won't change we have to change with it

If you can respond, respond
if it's a fool ignore

It's our evolution as a group of followers of a great religion and we are certainly capable of evolving with it

Excellent post.

White people have came to me, including my partner's family who is Irish and to my face asked me: Why do you worship monsters with an Elephant's head and a human body or a god with 10 arms that look like a spider.

I Laugh it off, simply because its their opinion and they are entitled to it. Was it a little offensive ? Yes of course, when you are a minority in a crowd and rest of the Caucasians are laughing at you and de-meaning you, however I am not going to take it any further other than have my verbal opinion on it and that's the end of it.

 

[El Generico]

Jafra was an unfortunate incident bro, its terrible, I admit. However Muslims started the violence bro, when they burned down a train carriage full of Hindus for no reason. Here it is different, no violence was started, it is just a cartoon, gotta compare apples with apples bro..



Because we are talking about muslims that could be fanatic, as you remember a guy's head got taken in France not so long ago for talking about Muhammad.

Didn't a British Soldier in UK also got his head taken? Cant remember what it was for, there was a muslim connection if I remember correctly..

Anyway moral of the story is certain Muslims like to go head hunting for not so big reasons, if you know what I mean..

And people of a certain religion like to lynch people on the street for eating beef. What’s the point of your rant? Only Muslims can be violent?

 

[El Generico]

Excellent post.

White people have came to me, including my partner's family who is Irish and to my face asked me: Why do you worship monsters with an Elephant's head and a human body or a god with 10 arms that look like a spider.

I Laugh it off, simply because its their opinion and they are entitled to it. Was it a little offensive ? Yes of course, when you are a minority in a crowd and rest of the Caucasians are laughing at you and de-meaning you, however I am not going to take it any further other than have my verbal opinion on it and that's the end of it.

There is a difference between a one off ignorant from a person as compared a teacher deliberately teaching inflammatory things in class.

Would you be ok if a teacher went away from the regular curriculum and chose to show a class of Hindu children extremely offensive pictures of Hindu deities? I am not sure about you but I am certain other Hindus would protest if something like this happened and rightfully so.

 

[Romali_rotti]

And people of a certain religion like to lynch people on the street for eating beef. What’s the point of your rant? Only Muslims can be violent?

First of all this thread is related to protesting an Islamic issue happening in the 'West' not what's happening in India, which is not the west.. Captain got hurt when I said; Look protesting is fine but indicated that there should not be any violence and brought India into this thread, which has no relevance.

We have plenty of threads about Mob lynching happening 'in' India, it should be discussed there due to the non relevance to this thread.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Would you be ok if a teacher went away from the regular curriculum and chose to show a class of Hindu children extremely offensive pictures of Hindu deities?.

Of course NOT, I would not be ok with it, if a Teacher in a school mocked Hinduism, their gods etc. There will definitely be complaints raised and would want actions taken so this does not happen again. However I would not want any violence or property damage done to the teacher or their family.

 

[El Generico]

Of course NOT, I would not be ok with it, if a Teacher in a school mocked Hinduism, their gods etc. There will definitely be complaints raised and would want actions taken so this does not happen again. However I would not want any violence or property damage done to the teacher or their family.

Ok haven’t the protest here also been peaceful? If there is violence then that’s wrong. From what I have seen all the Muslim parents are asking for is for the school to take action against the teacher, I don’t think anyone is threatening him or his family.

In a large protest, a few fringe elements can go over the top but majority of this protest has been very civil.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Ok haven’t the protest here also been peaceful? If there is violence then that’s wrong. l.

My whole point was protesting is fine, just not to escalate to violence...

 

[Zaz]

My whole point was protesting is fine, just not to escalate to violence...

Whos escalated to violence in britain over this? Why would you even say that?
Its been pretty peaceful This isnt france

The teachers been pretty stupid or provocative and has been suspended pending investigation

If true he ll rightly lose his job

 

[Romali_rotti]

Whos escalated to violence in britain over this? Why would you even say that?

It hasn't escalated to violence and that's the way it should remain.

Why you ask I made the point on violence, well didn't a British Soldier get murdered in the UK due to a muslim issue? I recall reading here on PP about an arm of a muslim shop owner that got amputated because he made Christmas well wishes in the UK ?.

I am not saying 'all' muslims in the West, Europe are like this, however when it comes to religion related issues, Muslim behavior in the West needs to be taken with caution.

 

[Stewie]

Some interesting points here. So the teacher showed the picture to students to explain why it’s blasphemy for us and why it’s offensive?

If that’s the case, I would say it is not a big deal. If she was trying to convey a malicious message, I would be upset but if the message is educational here, I don’t think the anger is justified.

 

[in_cutter]

My whole point was protesting is fine, just not to escalate to violence...

Your so called point was a sly dig...stop pretending otherwise

 

[cricketjoshila]

No you really have no idea of the point he was making...

If it's a Muslim majority area than the district would have to listen to their opinion...

The entire country is a non muslim majority area. If one starts pushing agendas due to numerical supremacy then the actual majority community is the winner.

 

[cricketjoshila]

That is absolutely incorrect. France hasn't struck at "Political Islam", whatever that is. France and specially macron played politics and appeased the far right vote bank with the whole blasphemous cartoons, Hijab ban etc. I don't see such a rule there that denies the same Muslims to stop from participating in their national sport. Ofcourse, they benefit from it so Muslims are great when they help them win the World Cup.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/02/24/emmanuel-macrons-war-on-islamism-is-europes-future/

 

[Romali_rotti]

Your so called point was a sly dig...stop pretending otherwise

Well that's your opinion, stay with it, I don't really care..

 

[Bigboii]

The entire country is a non muslim majority area. If one starts pushing agendas due to numerical supremacy then the actual majority community is the winner.

Local gov districts

You know the systems of districts or not?

 

[MenInG]

Guys stick to the topic.

Thanks

Repeating what Saj said

Topic is about UK only.

 

[Robert]

Excellent post.

White people have came to me, including my partner's family who is Irish and to my face asked me: Why do you worship monsters with an Elephant's head and a human body or a god with 10 arms that look like a spider.

I Laugh it off, simply because its their opinion and they are entitled to it. Was it a little offensive ? Yes of course, when you are a minority in a crowd and rest of the Caucasians are laughing at you and de-meaning you, however I am not going to take it any further other than have my verbal opinion on it and that's the end of it.

They are not demeaning you, just your beliefs. You are not your beliefs.

 

[Robert]

I’ve given a class on freedom of speech...it’s entirely possible to give an example without using primary source material...

Are you honestly saying you couldn’t discuss say Charlie Hebdo without displaying the images...you could even describe the images as news articles do...or use an article to initiate discussion...

There really is no need to use an image of Mohammed and I’m 100% sure the curriculum wouldn’t have mandated the teacher to do so...

How can there be an image when nobody knows what he looked like, though?

Some people are visual thinkers and need pictures to understand. I guess one could use a depiction of Galileo vs. The Inquisition as an example of the concept of blasphemy.

It’s all a bit strange to cultural Christians like me, as depictions of Jesus are ridiculed regularly in cartoons and Christians shrug it off. But Muslims take the equivalent really personally, and it is baffling as to why.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Local gov districts

You know the systems of districts or not?

One district acting like a separate electorate and pushing agendas will be disastrous.

 

[shaykh]

How can there be an image when nobody knows what he looked like, though?

Some people are visual thinkers and need pictures to understand. I guess one could use a depiction of Galileo vs. The Inquisition as an example of the concept of blasphemy.

It’s all a bit strange to cultural Christians like me, as depictions of Jesus are ridiculed regularly in cartoons and Christians shrug it off. But Muslims take the equivalent really personally, and it is baffling as to why.

Basic thing we get taught as teachers is to ensure materials that we choose to use are appropriate ...what defines appropriate is who is in my class...

So for example I use the opening scene of The Hangover to teach past modals of deduction to adults ...I wouldn’t use it with children ...in that case I’m choosing my method based on what is age appropriate ...

If you have a 70% Muslim class then it’s basic to know that an image of the Prophet isn’t going to fly ...for whatever reason imagery isn’t acceptable to some of those who follow the faith ...you don’t even need everyone to be offended...even just one could do the job ...

Yes some students may be visual ...some will be kinaesthetic...all sorts of different learning styles...but if you wanted to do visual you could just play two clips ...a person condemning cartoons of the Prophet ...and a person defending the cartoons...then get the students to discuss ...there really is no need for the actual cartoons to be displayed ...

If someone showed the cartoons at my academy I’d expect the teacher to lose his job ...

 

[CricketCartoons]

It’s all a bit strange to cultural Christians like me, as depictions of Jesus are ridiculed regularly in cartoons and Christians shrug it off. But Muslims take the equivalent really personally, and it is baffling as to why.

Don't compare with Jesus. To understand try to think of the one person you love the most, could be your wife, or parents or grandkid, and imagine their photo to be splashed around with vulgarity. If you still shrug it off, then you will never get it. But if you feel even a small bit of pain, then you can at least begin to understand the pain.

 

[shaykh]

Don't compare with Jesus. To understand try to think of the one person you love the most, could be your wife, or parents or grandkid, and imagine their photo to be splashed around with vulgarity. If you still shrug it off, then you will never get it. But if you feel even a small bit of pain, then you can at least begin to understand the pain.

A straw man argument that ...fact is any image of the Prophet is forbidden ...it doesn’t need to be mocking or insulting to be offensive to some ...

Also why the presumption that Christians don’t love Jesus in the same way?...and Jesus gets mocked a lot more...I certainly don’t recommend someone as sensitive as you to watch South Park for instance...

And stop making the same points you made in the CH thread...this isn’t the same topic...one involves a teacher in a classroom...and the other involves a media publication ...not remotely similar in terms of responsibility ...

 

[CricketCartoons]

A straw man argument that ...fact is any image of the Prophet is forbidden ...it doesn’t need to be mocking or insulting to be offensive to some ...

Also why the presumption that Christians don’t love Jesus in the same way?...and Jesus gets mocked a lot more...I certainly don’t recommend someone as sensitive as you to watch South Park for instance...

And stop making the same points you made in the CH thread...this isn’t the same topic...one involves a teacher in a classroom...and the other involves a media publication ...not remotely similar in terms of responsibility ...

Someone who doesn't feel the pain has no right to define what should be painful and what not for others. Your post is irrelevant.

 

[shaykh]

Someone who doesn't feel the pain has no right to define what should be painful and what not for others. Your post is irrelevant.

Your feelings aren’t important ...

 

[CricketCartoons]

Your feelings aren’t important ...

Agreed. Feelings are worth nothing unless you are powerful. btw I am a hindu, who is used to my religion and religious figures mocked and also get to hear from others how i am a bigot if i feel insulted. i am used to gaslighting. good to see at least muslims giving a good fight to the "liberal" *word for something dirty that floats on water*.

 

[shaykh]

Agreed. Feelings are worth nothing unless you are powerful. btw I am a hindu, who is used to my religion and religious figures mocked and also get to hear from others how i am a bigot if i feel insulted. i am used to gaslighting. good to see at least muslims giving a good fight to the "liberal" *word for something dirty that floats on water*.

What nonsense...powerful people get mocked all the time ...

There is also nothing bigoted about mocking your religion...it’s a set of ideas...

No-ones asking you not to get offended or annoyed ...it’s just it doesn’t really matter if you do...freedom to offend is part of freedom of expression...

I do find it ironic how some moan about snowflakes, how the world is over PC, trigger warnings, safe spaces etc ...yet then play victim when it’s something they find offensive...at least show some consistency...

 

[MenInG]

Five years ago the historic mill town of Batley became the centre of a media circus when its MP Jo Cox was murdered by a far-right extremist. Cox’s tragic death in nearby Birstall at the hands of the white supremacist Thomas Mair looked set to cause ruptures in the community.

In her maiden speech the Labour MP Tracy Brabin, who was elected to replace Cox, said she would “stand tall against those whose only mission is to divide our community”. Brabin added that her constituency of Batley and Spen would “not be defined by the one person who took from us, but by the many who give”.

But the constituency continues to be a battleground for far-right activists. In the 2019 general election, an independent candidate known for anti-Muslim Facebook posts, Paul Halloran, came third ahead of the Liberal Democrat candidate.

On Thursday, protests erupted over claims a teacher had shown a cartoon of the prophet Muhammad to pupils at Batley grammar school and now there are fears the row could be hijacked by extremists on both sides.

But in the town, where Muslims make up 41% of the population, the day after the main protest, Brabins’ sentiment in her maiden speech is echoed by some living in the area with most locals describing the community as friendly and cohesive and saying they do not want trouble.

Outside the gates of the school, Hassan Mahmood said the protest was about educating people and raising awareness with the hope of increased community cohesion. “This is about generating that positive awareness so that there’s no sort of untoward reaction and there’s no disruption or disharmony in the community,” he said.

Mahmood explained that the issue centred on the potential impact on children, especially non-Muslims, and their knowledge of what is deemed offensive.

“The kind of message that’s going out from this school is quite dangerous for all children. You’re giving out the wrong information, you’re setting a wrong mindset, which doesn’t help community cohesion,” he said.

Shehram Farrukh, a fellow protester, said the demonstration had been about opening up a conversation. “So the thing is, if something happens, anywhere in any part of the world about the prophet Muhammad, we Muslims are very sensitive. We are not maligning anybody else, we just want to say, don’t make fun of our prophet. That’s all we want,” he said.

Rukhsana Khaliq and her daughter Maariha, 16, agreed the protest was warranted. Maariha went to the school but is now in sixth form elsewhere.

She said: “There’s nothing bad about the school. It’s just what he did was offensive and he didn’t know that. I feel like now that this has happened he understands.”

“There’s no way of accommodating that,” added her mother.

Qari Asim MBE, an imam at Leeds Makkah Mosque, said he sympathised with parents and pupils and that teachers have a responsibility to exercise better judgment for sensitive classroom content but added that the protests should stop and be replaced with constructive dialogue.

“We do not want to fan the flames of Islamophobia and provoke hatred or division,” he said.

https://www.theguardian.com/educati...awareness-muslims-in-batley-on-school-protest

 

[KingKhan12]

No you really have no idea of the point he was making...

If it's a Muslim majority area than the district would have to listen to their opinion...

This RSS guy don't know about all this he ain't even stepped out of India and claims he been everywhere and knows everything

 

[CricketCartoons]

What nonsense...powerful people get mocked all the time ...

There is also nothing bigoted about mocking your religion...it’s a set of ideas...

No-ones asking you not to get offended or annoyed ...it’s just it doesn’t really matter if you do...freedom to offend is part of freedom of expression...

I do find it ironic how some moan about snowflakes, how the world is over PC, trigger warnings, safe spaces etc ...yet then play victim when it’s something they find offensive...at least show some consistency...

There is big difference between mocking the powerful and mocking the weak. if a beggar mocks me I will laugh it off, when privileged people mock me I will not be able to shrug it off. People who say they don't get insulted when speaking from positions of privilege. When my faith is everything I have, I don't have that privilege. Anyway you continue with gaslighting and sugarcoating this bigotry.

 

[CricketCartoons]

freedom to offend is part of freedom of expression, but you are not allowed to use the N word, because we whites feel guilty over it, you are also not allowed to deny the holocaust, because we whites still feel guilty about it. Basically this "freedom" is a set of "allowed" expressions. If it was really freedom, then let me use the N word and please defend it under freedom of expression.

 

[shaykh]

There is big difference between mocking the powerful and mocking the weak. if a beggar mocks me I will laugh it off, when privileged people mock me I will not be able to shrug it off. People who say they don't get insulted when speaking from positions of privilege. When my faith is everything I have, I don't have that privilege. Anyway you continue with gaslighting and sugarcoating this bigotry.

What privilege do you think I have?...nice try though playing the victim with the whole power dichotomy...so it’s ok for marginalised ppl to say whatever they want?...so I guess Muslims in your country should be allowed to insult Hinduism to their hearts content considering their lack of privilege in comparison to yours...

I won’t even expand on the lunacy on defining things based on power...I’ll end up with a whole diatribe on postmodernist **...

If you can’t take being offended...that’s your individual hypersensitivity problem ...society shouldn’t have to amend itself to behave how Cricketcartoons wants ...the people in this world weren’t created for the purpose to please you ...

 

[shaykh]

freedom to offend is part of freedom of expression, but you are not allowed to use the N word, because we whites feel guilty over it, you are also not allowed to deny the holocaust, because we whites still feel guilty about it. Basically this "freedom" is a set of "allowed" expressions. If it was really freedom, then let me use the N word and please defend it under freedom of expression.

Absolute rubbish again...just straw man after straw man...

The only part of that I do agree with is ‘denial of the Holocaust’...ideas shouldn’t be policed...and the fact is it’s not really policed...plenty of books on the topic ...and that’s fine...cos it’s debating history...and ideas...

That’s quite different to simply using a pejorative like the N word...discussing and mocking black personalities and figures is fine...one can mock someone black and that doesn’t make them racist...cos it’s the figure being mocked...you can mock a black mans ideas as well...and that isn’t racist either...

How many more straw men arguments are you able to produce...it’s evidently your speciality ...

 

[CricketCartoons]

What privilege do you think I have?...nice try though playing the victim with the whole power dichotomy...so it’s ok for marginalised ppl to say whatever they want?...so I guess Muslims in your country should be allowed to insult Hinduism to their hearts content considering their lack of privilege in comparison to yours...

I won’t even expand on the lunacy on defining things based on power...I’ll end up with a whole diatribe on postmodernist **...

If you can’t take being offended...that’s your individual hypersensitivity problem ...society shouldn’t have to amend itself to behave how Cricketcartoons wants ...the people in this world weren’t created for the purpose to please you ...

The privilege you have is of being an atheist, so you can carry on insulting other religions without others having being able to insult yours. This is why atheist are the worst people to walk on earth.

I can only laugh are your rudimentary understanding of power. having numbers in a democracy doesn't translate into individual power, let alone structural power, which we hindus lack. and I am not asking for people to be allowed to insult religions, I am asking the opposite. Insulting blacks for their race is just an argument so that loonies can understand their hypocrisy. I don't want to insult blacks.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Absolute rubbish again...just straw man after straw man...

The only part of that I do agree with is ‘denial of the Holocaust’...ideas shouldn’t be policed...and the fact is it’s not really policed...plenty of books on the topic ...and that’s fine...cos it’s debating history...and ideas...

That’s quite different to simply using a pejorative like the N word...discussing and mocking black personalities and figures is fine...one can mock someone black and that doesn’t make them racist...cos it’s the figure being mocked...you can mock a black mans ideas as well...and that isn’t racist either...

How many more straw men arguments are you able to produce...it’s evidently your speciality ...

The idea of an insult is to insult (sorry that I even have to explain the obvious). If freedom to insult is part of freedom of speech, then why cannot I insult a black for his race while putting it under freedom of speech?

 

[Robert]

freedom to offend is part of freedom of expression, but you are not allowed to use the N word, because we whites feel guilty over it, you are also not allowed to deny the holocaust, because we whites still feel guilty about it. Basically this "freedom" is a set of "allowed" expressions. If it was really freedom, then let me use the N word and please defend it under freedom of expression.

Not guilt, just an awareness that a race was subjugated by another and that this must not happen again.

Same with the Holocaust. The facts of it cannot be questioned in some nations, because then it could reoccur. You would have to be stupid to question it anyway, or outright .

You are exposing libertarianism here. What you appear to want is all your rights but none of the responsibility to others that go with them. True liberalism incorporates the Harm Principle - libertarianism does not.

 

[Robert]

Don't compare with Jesus. To understand try to think of the one person you love the most, could be your wife, or parents or grandkid, and imagine their photo to be splashed around with vulgarity. If you still shrug it off, then you will never get it. But if you feel even a small bit of pain, then you can at least begin to understand the pain.

Well for plenty of people, that’s Jesus. But they don’t kick off and demand firings.

In my case, I would give the abuser a fool’s pardon and feel a bit sorry for them. Not try to get him sacked. I was brought up to forgive.

 

[Robert]

Basic thing we get taught as teachers is to ensure materials that we choose to use are appropriate ...what defines appropriate is who is in my class...

So for example I use the opening scene of The Hangover to teach past modals of deduction to adults ...I wouldn’t use it with children ...in that case I’m choosing my method based on what is age appropriate ...

If you have a 70% Muslim class then it’s basic to know that an image of the Prophet isn’t going to fly ...for whatever reason imagery isn’t acceptable to some of those who follow the faith ...you don’t even need everyone to be offended...even just one could do the job ...

Yes some students may be visual ...some will be kinaesthetic...all sorts of different learning styles...but if you wanted to do visual you could just play two clips ...a person condemning cartoons of the Prophet ...and a person defending the cartoons...then get the students to discuss ...there really is no need for the actual cartoons to be displayed ...

If someone showed the cartoons at my academy I’d expect the teacher to lose his job ...

Fair enough, this is reasonable.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Well for plenty of people, that’s Jesus. But they don’t kick off and demand firings.

In my case, I would give the abuser a fool’s pardon and feel a bit sorry for them. Not try to get him sacked. I was brought up to forgive.

For a self declared liberal, isn't it ironic that you want everyone to follow your ideas? Just because you were brought up to forgive, that means everyone else must become like you and forgive when their most loved people are mocked and insulted? Sounds like fascism to want others to follow what you believe.

 

[shaykh]

The privilege you have is of being an atheist, so you can carry on insulting other religions without others having being able to insult yours. This is why atheist are the worst people to walk on earth.

I can only laugh are your rudimentary understanding of power. having numbers in a democracy doesn't translate into individual power, let alone structural power, which we hindus lack. and I am not asking for people to be allowed to insult religions, I am asking the opposite. Insulting blacks for their race is just an argument so that loonies can understand their hypocrisy. I don't want to insult blacks.

You do realise that power based arguments are predicated on group dynamics...you’re privileged in your country cos you’re a Hindu ...by your definition Muslims should be able to insult you as much as they like ...

So the only form of privilege is religion...the nonsensical power based arguments are all about white privilege here...I am a victim...

Also I’m not an atheist but what makes you think there aren’t things that I hold sacred...and ppl who annoy me on certain topics ...

Just I’m not a hypersensitive baby who wants everyone to cater to him ...people are free to disagree with me...how self centred are you that you want everyone to be exactly as you want ...

 

[CricketCartoons]

Not guilt, just an awareness that a race was subjugated by another and that this must not happen again.

Same with the Holocaust. The facts of it cannot be questioned in some nations, because then it could reoccur. You would have to be stupid to question it anyway, or outright .

You are exposing libertarianism here. What you appear to want is all your rights but none of the responsibility to others that go with them. True liberalism incorporates the Harm Principle - libertarianism does not.

You mean awareness is awareness when white world is aware of it. And those things are out of bound from the idea of FoS. You yourself confessed that you are not aware why muslims get hurt when their Prophet is mocked. So when you don't have awareness, it comes under Freedom of Speech. Got it.

 

[CricketCartoons]

You do realise that power based arguments are predicated on group dynamics...you’re privileged in your country cos you’re a Hindu ...by your definition Muslims should be able to insult you as much as they like ...

So the only form of privilege is religion...the nonsensical power based arguments are all about white privilege here...I am a victim...

Also I’m not an atheist but what makes you think there aren’t things that I hold sacred...and ppl who annoy me on certain topics ...

Just I’m not a hypersensitive baby who wants everyone to cater to him ...people are free to disagree with me...how self centred are you that you want everyone to be exactly as you want ...

I am not privileged because of my religion. You know nothing about me so don't be a fool trying to assume. don't waste my time.

 

[shaykh]

I am not privileged because of my religion. You know nothing about me so don't be a fool trying to assume. don't waste my time.

Oh I don’t believe in this postmodernist privilege **...but you brought it up...power dynamics etc...the stupid example of the beggar ...I’m just applying your ridiculous argument...

Simple thing is this...the world doesn’t revolve around you or your needs...if a newspaper wants to discuss your religion which is a set of ideas...or your country or anything else...they are free to do so...

You’re more than happy to express your opinion when you feel like it...maybe some are offended by your views on Harry and Meghan ...maybe some are offended by your views on Kohli...maybe some are offended by your views on apples...some might be offended by the fact that you say you’re not privileged despite being a Hindu in a majority Hindu country ...some might be offended by your views on women’s rights...

Simple fact is this ...people get offended by all sorts of things...it really doesn’t matter...and neither do your feelings...if you want to not be offended then at least be consistent and never express an opinion cos somewhere someone will be offended by your words...

Not me...I just think you post nonsense...but show some consistency ...if you want others to not say what they want then maybe you shouldn’t express your views on anything...

 

[CricketCartoons]

Oh I don’t believe in this postmodernist privilege **...but you brought it up...power dynamics etc...the stupid example of the beggar ...I’m just applying your ridiculous argument...

Simple thing is this...the world doesn’t revolve around you or your needs...if a newspaper wants to discuss your religion which is a set of ideas...or your country or anything else...they are free to do so...

You’re more than happy to express your opinion when you feel like it...maybe some are offended by your views on Harry and Meghan ...maybe some are offended by your views on Kohli...maybe some are offended by your views on apples...some might be offended by the fact that you say you’re not privileged despite being a Hindu in a majority Hindu country ...some might be offended by your views on women’s rights...

Simple fact is this ...people get offended by all sorts of things...it really doesn’t matter...and neither do your feelings...if you want to not be offended then at least be consistent and never express an opinion cos somewhere someone will be offended by your words...

Not me...I just think you post nonsense...but show some consistency ...if you want others to not say what they want then maybe you shouldn’t express your views on anything...

You are literally begging me for attention when all I want is to ignore your stupid posts. World doesn't revolve around my needs, my feelings don't matter, blah blah. Such stupid statements dont deserve a response.

Obviously the world doesn't revolve around you or me. But my feeling matter to me if they don't matter to you. Because feelings matter to those people who feel it, they will react and respond. So at least acknowledge that there is going to be a response. I don't want the world to change to suit me. I just want the world to be ready to get what it gives me.

 

[OMB]

Posters stay on topic.

 

[I think therfore I am]

Why cannot the issue of blasphemy and offense be taught to a majortiy Muslim class without showing a picture.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

I think the issue has been mixed up and confused by both Muslims and Non-Muslims.

The reports seem to always centre around 'depictions' of the Prophet (SAW), which yes are disliked by Muslims but could probably be tolerated. I think Shia are more comfortable with depictions and many pictures/portraits exist.

The more contentious issue is around 'offensive' depictions. Now we can argue day and night about what is and isnt offensive but showing a classroom of children images of someone they love cherish and respect as a suicide bomber is obvioisly going to elicit a response.

And thats what this debate needs to be centred on and when explained properly the vast majority of decent people, especially parents will agree.

The actions of the parents are therefore understandable but it would have been better to speak with the school directly and not in a way that threatens them or the teacher in question. Mob mentality never really works and usually is dangerous and counter productive

Finally, members of the public can have an opinion on a protest but when government ministers try to define how acceptable a protest is then we are verging into dangerous protests. If protests were acceptable then they wouldnt really be protests.

 

[Robert]

And?

....and this means counterfire from the other side in the Culture War.

A lot of Britons will see this as Muslims’ Special Right Not To Be Offended again..

Not me, I thought the cartoon was a really bad idea. I am only interested in the free speech aspect of the debate.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

First of all this thread is related to protesting an Islamic issue happening in the 'West' not what's happening in India, which is not the west.. Captain got hurt when I said; Look protesting is fine but indicated that there should not be any violence and brought India into this thread, which has no relevance.

We have plenty of threads about Mob lynching happening 'in' India, it should be discussed there due to the non relevance to this thread.

All I did was respond to your wormy attempt to troll by pointing out that Indians shouldn't be the ones talking about chopping limbs or heads given what happened in Gujarat not too long ago. If you are going to go down that road then don't start squealing when you get a response which shows you the mirror.

This was a legal protest against a teacher who overstepped his bounds and you started talking about chopping limbs and heads. Fine if you want to take it there, but don't start crying when I take you up on it.

 

[shaykh]

I think the issue has been mixed up and confused by both Muslims and Non-Muslims.

The reports seem to always centre around 'depictions' of the Prophet (SAW), which yes are disliked by Muslims but could probably be tolerated. I think Shia are more comfortable with depictions and many pictures/portraits exist.

The more contentious issue is around 'offensive' depictions. Now we can argue day and night about what is and isnt offensive but showing a classroom of children images of someone they love cherish and respect as a suicide bomber is obvioisly going to elicit a response.

And thats what this debate needs to be centred on and when explained properly the vast majority of decent people, especially parents will agree.

The actions of the parents are therefore understandable but it would have been better to speak with the school directly and not in a way that threatens them or the teacher in question. Mob mentality never really works and usually is dangerous and counter productive

Finally, members of the public can have an opinion on a protest but when government ministers try to define how acceptable a protest is then we are verging into dangerous protests. If protests were acceptable then they wouldnt really be protests.

It’s a good question ...

My understanding when I was Muslim is it’s unacceptable to have any image of the Prophet...dunno if you have seen ‘The Message’ but the Prophet wasn’t pictured ...the idea was under no circumstances should the Prophet be pictured ...

Now obviously the CH and Danish cartoons take it a step further by actively mocking the Prophet...

Both the depiction and the mocking go against Islam but do you find both offensive?...

So if the teacher used an image of Muhammad which wasn’t mocking him then would Muslims get annoyed...

What if someone made a movie about Muhammad and followed the seerah accurately but unlike the Message actually had an actor playing the role of the Prophet?...how about an animation or a comic?...Christians and Jews use these mediums as excellent teaching tools for example...

How important is context?...the French teacher who got beheaded was in no way glorifying the cartoons...he simply showed what was offensive...and wanted students to discuss the image...he also gave Muslims the option of leaving the room...as happens with trigger warnings these days...yet he ended up beheaded...is using the images to actually discuss them offensive?...

In this teachers case I feel if for example he was doing what the French teacher was doing then he’s not at fault...just stupid...obviously if it’s more sinister then the protests make sense ie the KKWC story...

I do find it funny though that Muslims are being treated as if fundamentalism is solely their issue ...a lecturer got sacked for being transphobic for saying biology isn’t a social construct, a feminist faced protests for believing rape is to do with sex and not power...we live in an age of trigger warnings and safe spaces which are stupid as hell...but relatively commonplace...the totalitarians aren’t only Muslim...

 

[Bigboii]

One district acting like a separate electorate and pushing agendas will be disastrous.

No there is a state system of education (in it they stay apolitical) every district follow that
But the admin decisions are followed by districts and it's been happening for decades
One district can have really different rules from another
If the local community don't like the guy they can ask the people they elect to fire him

 

[HitWicket]

It's worth pointing out that in the UK public schools are a type of private school (as confusing as that is). The phrase your looking for here is probably state school assuming you're talking about those that aren't fee paying and are funded by the government. The contents and teachings of the Quran and Bible are both regularly taught in state schools.

 

[Romali_rotti]

All I did was respond to your wormy attempt to troll by pointing out that Indians shouldn't be the ones talking about chopping limbs or heads given what happened in Gujarat not too long ago.

Speaking about Prophet Mohammad has gotten people injured or killed in the west, which is a fact that has relevance to this thread. You bringing up violence conducted by Hindus in India, is as good as a comparison as the similarity between Chicken Tikka and Oreo cookies, this is some effort, even for a Britstani like you Cap. Well done...


If you are going to go down that road then don't start squealing when you get a response which shows you the mirror.

I responded in kind to your zero similarity comparison and you have not responded to it. Post 166 was a response to El Generico, he asked the question and I responded. You are giving yourself too much credit here CAP..

This was a legal protest against a teacher who overstepped his bounds and you started talking about chopping limbs and heads.

Read my post again, I said protesting is fine but please no violence. There is already a precedent set by muslims when it comes talking about their religion with violent acts in the 'WEST'..

.....

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Speaking about Prophet Mohammad has gotten people injured or killed in the west, which is a fact that has relevance to this thread. You bringing up violence conducted by Hindus in India, is as good as a comparison as the similarity between Chicken Tikka and Oreo cookies, this is some effort, even for a Britstani like you Cap. Well done...

Me pointing out the Ehsan jafri chopping and slicing also has relevance in this thread because you are an Indian talking about chopping and slicing. The best way of coming to an understanding is to see where the common ground is, that will help us to see the other's point of view.

Fact is, there is far more chance of people picking up swords and axes in India than in the UK, as an Indian I am sure you can agree with that. Once again I remind you that it was you who wanted to discuss chopping and slicing limbs, not mine, but now that we are here, might as well do it thoroughly.

 

[rhony]

Why cannot the issue of blasphemy and offense be taught to a majortiy Muslim class without showing a picture.

Teach blasphemy and offence why? I don't see the purpose. Teaching makes sense when there is a chance of learning, debate and discussion. Most, if not all Muslim kids are already obtuse about religion by the time they are 8. They have already been drilled at home or in mosques.

So, don't teach Islam. Good or bad doesn't matter at all. They won't listen. Instead, teach how other religions are equally important. Teach that religion is a personal thing and it shouldn't matter which religion you belong to. You are no better or worse than anyone belonging to other religions. Keep it simple.

 

[Bigboii]

It's worth pointing out that in the UK public schools are a type of private school (as confusing as that is). The phrase your looking for here is probably state school assuming you're talking about those that aren't fee paying and are funded by the government. The contents and teachings of the Quran and Bible are both regularly taught in state schools.

A school adminisred by a buerocratic institution should not be teaching Quran,bible or anything controversial

A school where you have the choice to leave and you pay some money

They can teach whatever they like

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Just as a general point about this topic, and to get away from the current polarising arguments, does anyone believe showing these sort of caricatures serve a useful purpose? Why is it a good idea?

 

[Bigboii]

Just as a general point about this topic, and to get away from the current polarising arguments, does anyone believe showing these sort of caricatures serve a useful purpose? Why is it a good idea?

It's a stupid idea but in a private school they have the right to implement stupid ideas

 

[rhony]

Just as a general point about this topic, and to get away from the current polarising arguments, does anyone believe showing these sort of caricatures serve a useful purpose? Why is it a good idea?

Part of me thinks this could be a ploy to flush out the extremists in the area. Those people are just dumb as bricks. So they will react. Other than that, there is absolutely zero value in this.

 

[shaykh]

Just as a general point about this topic, and to get away from the current polarising arguments, does anyone believe showing these sort of caricatures serve a useful purpose? Why is it a good idea?

With the French example...the teacher in his lesson on freedom of speech decided it was worthwhile to show what had caused offence and use that as a springboard for discussion...in essence it’s better to see what causes offence rather than simply describe it ...

A retort to that though ...and Muslims can answer this...I don’t think many Muslims have actually seen the cartoons...what causes offence was the knowledge of their existence...so the Prophet with a bomb in his turban for example...so in that sense was it the imagery itself of the existence of the cartoon that is the primary issue?...

If it’s the image then you can argue it’s useful in a given context like the one in France...otherwise no...you can as a teacher simply refer to ‘are caricatures of the Prophet acceptable’...not ‘is this (show image) acceptable?’

A bit like the Satanic verses...how many Muslims actually read the offensive paragraphs?...

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

With the French example...the teacher in his lesson on freedom of speech decided it was worthwhile to show what had caused offence and use that as a springboard for discussion...in essence it’s better to see what causes offence rather than simply describe it ...

A retort to that though ...and Muslims can answer this...I don’t think many Muslims have actually seen the cartoons...what causes offence was the knowledge of their existence...so the Prophet with a bomb in his turban for example...so in that sense was it the imagery itself of the existence of the cartoon that is the primary issue?...

If it’s the image then you can argue it’s useful in a given context like the one in France...otherwise no...you can as a teacher simply refer to ‘are caricatures of the Prophet acceptable’...not ‘is this (show image) acceptable?’

A bit like the Satanic verses...how many Muslims actually read the offensive paragraphs?...

We are talking about someone who lived over a thousand years ago. For most people other than Muslims, the Prophet PBUH, is of little relevance today. Before Salman Rushdie's book, barely anyone in the world discussed him precisely because of that.

It's like Hassidic jews, very few of us know much about them, or what is in their books because it is ancient stuff and doesn't really strike much of a chord with us. We could draw some funny pictures of them I am sure, but would there actually be much value in it?

 

[HitWicket]

A school adminisred by a buerocratic institution should not be teaching Quran,bible or anything controversial

A school where you have the choice to leave and you pay some money

They can teach whatever they like

I disagree, I see educating people on the beliefs of a range of religions and how they contrast as a good idea personally.

Also a reminder that this is not a private school.

 

[shaykh]

We are talking about someone who lived over a thousand years ago. For most people other than Muslims, the Prophet PBUH, is of little relevance today. Before Salman Rushdie's book, barely anyone in the world discussed him precisely because of that.

It's like Hassidic jews, very few of us know much about them, or what is in their books because it is ancient stuff and doesn't really strike much of a chord with us. We could draw some funny pictures of them I am sure, but would there actually be much value in it?

But the question is of what relevance it is to Muslims...what makes it offensive?...
Seeing the image?...or the simple existence of it?...

I mentioned to DV that it doesn’t really appear clear if there would be such responses if it was a drawing of the Prophet but not a negative caricature...

So could a movie be released like the Message except with an actor playing Mohammed?...a cartoon?...a comic?...

Is simply having an image of the Prophet offensive regardless of context?...

Is using an offensive image in a specific context ...ie generate discussion such as how it was used in a classroom in France unacceptable?...

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

But the question is of what relevance it is to Muslims...what makes it offensive?...
Seeing the image?...or the simple existence of it?...

I mentioned to DV that it doesn’t really appear clear if there would be such responses if it was a drawing of the Prophet but not a negative caricature...

So could a movie be released like the Message except with an actor playing Mohammed?...a cartoon?...a comic?...

Is simply having an image of the Prophet offensive regardless of context?...

Is using an offensive image in a specific context ...ie generate discussion such as how it was used in a classroom in France unacceptable?...

But why does it matter to a non-Muslim? If I was a non-Muslim on hearing this I might wonder why for a moment, then would probably shrug my shoulders and move on. Once I knew it was offensive, why would I want to go out of my way to draw something offensive?

What you are talking about is general representation of the Prophet PBUH which might be for an educational or entertainment purpose, e.g. portrayal in a biographical film. That is a different take and you could make a case for it.

 

[Adil_94]

[MENTION=133972]shaykh[/MENTION] i think with the way the discussions are held nowadays even a positive drawing of the Prophet would receive negative critcism. Never mind an actor portraying the Prophet i dont think most Muslims would tolerate that even if its a positive film like the Message.

Regardless of whether its offensive or not u will get Muslim outrage. Even if theyve never seen the cartoon themselves its just the idea of the Cartoon that gets people angry and offended.

Though obviously cartoons like Charlie Hebdo or the Danish cartoons that openly mock and insult the Prophet will draw more ire than just a drawing of him.

I remember South Park depicted Muhammad in an episode and they never got any severe backlash back then as he wasnt depicted negatively but did in later years.

 

[Technics 1210]

The entire episode is a piece of sensationalism.

The truth however is we shouldn't be surprised by this in the UK; when you have one set of rules for one religion compared to another this was going to happen.

Had this been an insult to Jewish school kids, then the teacher would've been suspended on the grounds of antisemitism.

The teacher in this case however should be fired. He can't pretend he didn't know what he was doing. Media will spin this FoE/FoS.

 

[Adil_94]

@ Cpt. Rishwat This goes back to the Enlightenment period in the West where the previously sacrosanct Biblical texts the Church Biblical figures were attacked by philosophers and thinkers to challenge their influence over society and the influence of religious dogma and belief in society.

Its the idea that no religious belief figure shouldnt be immune to mockery criticism and ridicule and that u can be offended but its fair game n no one should be harmed over doing so.

Which is in direct contrast to the view most Muslims take.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

[MENTION=133972]shaykh[/MENTION] i think with the way the discussions are held nowadays even a positive drawing of the Prophet would receive negative critcism. Never mind an actor portraying the Prophet i dont think most Muslims would tolerate that even if its a positive film like the Message.

Regardless of whether its offensive or not u will get Muslim outrage. Even if theyve never seen the cartoon themselves its just the idea of the Cartoon that gets people angry and offended.

Though obviously cartoons like Charlie Hebdo or the Danish cartoons that openly mock and insult the Prophet will draw more ire than just a drawing of him.

I remember South Park depicted Muhammad in an episode and they never got any severe backlash back then as he wasnt depicted negatively but did in later years.

I think the reasons Muslims don't want an actor or cartoon representation of the Prophet PBUH is that they hold him in such a high regard due to traditions, that they believe it is wrong to put a false representation even with good intentions as it would put a picture in people's minds of what he looked like.

This actually does happen, once you have seen Tyrion in GOT tv series, you will always imagine him that way even though you may have had a totally different picture from reading the book.

 

[Adil_94]

Its just a clash of beliefs n cultures u see in the comments section of BBC Sky News etc u will have White Brits thinking its ridiculous to get so worked up over a Cartoon when most Brits are increasingly agnostic and atheist and dont understand how people can take religion that seriously seeing it as a " bunch of fairytales and nonsense" and fair game for mockery.

Whilst Muslims are deeply upset about their feelings beinh hurt. N think the Prophet should be above any mockery.

 

[CricketCartoons]

@ Cpt. Rishwat This goes back to the Enlightenment period in the West where the previously sacrosanct Biblical texts the Church Biblical figures were attacked by philosophers and thinkers to challenge their influence over society and the influence of religious dogma and belief in society.

Its the idea that no religious belief figure shouldnt be immune to mockery criticism and ridicule and that u can be offended but its fair game n no one should be harmed over doing so.

Which is in direct contrast to the view most Muslims take.

If the europeans decided that they dont want monarchy and the church to control them, it is their right. but why poke their nose in other religions which are not controlling them like the church once did? Let muslims decide if they want something like european renaissance. It is one thing to fight against something which is strong like the church, and another to mock the religion of a minority who are already facing religious bigotry.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

@ Cpt. Rishwat This goes back to the Enlightenment period in the West where the previously sacrosanct Biblical texts the Church Biblical figures were attacked by philosophers and thinkers to challenge their influence over society and the influence of religious dogma and belief in society.

Its the idea that no religious belief figure shouldnt be immune to mockery criticism and ridicule and that u can be offended but its fair game n no one should be harmed over doing so.

Which is in direct contrast to the view most Muslims take.

Agree, Muslims are at the equivalent stage of Christianity a couple of centuries ago. Whether 'enlightenment' will take the same course in Islamic world is a matter for conjecture.

 

[shaykh]

But why does it matter to a non-Muslim? If I was a non-Muslim on hearing this I might wonder why for a moment, then would probably shrug my shoulders and move on. Once I knew it was offensive, why would I want to go out of my way to draw something offensive?

What you are talking about is general representation of the Prophet PBUH which might be for an educational or entertainment purpose, e.g. portrayal in a biographical film. That is a different take and you could make a case for it.

Cos freedom of expression is a hot button topic ...obviously in this case there is still very little known in terms of the context...

So I’ll refer to the French example...the topic was freedom of expression...and the teacher chose to use the image to elicit discussion among his Muslim and non-Muslim students ...I’ve given a similar class just obviously without the use of the CH cartoon...and getting students to discuss the topic...helps them all realise that not everyone is monolithic...the discussion itself is relevant...

The complaint about the French teacher ended up coming from the father of a girl who wasn’t even in that class nor at school that week...

 

[shaykh]

[MENTION=133972]shaykh[/MENTION] i think with the way the discussions are held nowadays even a positive drawing of the Prophet would receive negative critcism. Never mind an actor portraying the Prophet i dont think most Muslims would tolerate that even if its a positive film like the Message.

Regardless of whether its offensive or not u will get Muslim outrage. Even if theyve never seen the cartoon themselves its just the idea of the Cartoon that gets people angry and offended.

Though obviously cartoons like Charlie Hebdo or the Danish cartoons that openly mock and insult the Prophet will draw more ire than just a drawing of him.

I remember South Park depicted Muhammad in an episode and they never got any severe backlash back then as he wasnt depicted negatively but did in later years.

Yeah you’re probably right ...the days of Battle of Badr movie are probably a long way away from now...

 

[Technics 1210]

You have a teacher here on PP living in a country where it is illegal to question/deny the holocaust yet is giving us a lecture on free speech.

Pull the other one.

Of there is the other fact - trying to explain the situation without asking the pertinent question - what is it about depeciting Mohammed PBUH that is considered offensive to Muslims?

Don't waste time. I bet the same teacher(s) were schooled on Holocaust material and how not to be antisemitic - proper teacher's training in how to present Jewish information/curriculum.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Cos freedom of expression is a hot button topic ...obviously in this case there is still very little known in terms of the context...

So I’ll refer to the French example...the topic was freedom of expression...and the teacher chose to use the image to elicit discussion among his Muslim and non-Muslim students ...I’ve given a similar class just obviously without the use of the CH cartoon...and getting students to discuss the topic...helps them all realise that not everyone is monolithic...the discussion itself is relevant...

The complaint about the French teacher ended up coming from the father of a girl who wasn’t even in that class nor at school that week...

Freedom of expression doesn't seem to be a problem when criticising Islam as a religion, there is a particular taboo with regard to insulting the Prophet PBUH. So the hot topic is actually the insult - or perceived insult to the Prophet PBUH. Freedom of expression in itself is not the target.

 

[Adil_94]

This cartoon issue will be always be a fault line for Muslims and Western natives as the views are so diametrically opposed. As Westerners dont like being told u cant mock something coz its holy or God said so the battle will keep raging on

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

This cartoon issue will be always be a fault line for Muslims and Western natives as the views are so diametrically opposed. As Westerners dont like being told u cant mock something coz its holy or God said so the battle will keep raging on

I don't agree. Westerners are sophisticated and mature enough to realise it's not really an issue, if Muslims don't like having their holy figures mocked, there are plenty of others we can take aim at. The world is a big place, we don't have to fixate on one figure from 1500 years ago when there isn't much gain in it.

 

[shaykh]

You have a teacher here on PP living in a country where it is illegal to question/deny the holocaust yet is giving us a lecture on free speech.

Pull the other one.

Of there is the other fact - trying to explain the situation without asking the pertinent question - what is it about depeciting Mohammed PBUH that is considered offensive to Muslims?

Don't waste time. I bet the same teacher(s) were schooled on Holocaust material and how not to be antisemitic - proper teacher's training in how to present Jewish information/curriculum.

Holocaust denial isn’t a crime in the UK...you can still buy Holocaust denial literature books etc...and if it became a crime I would say that that infringes on freedom of expression...so you can’t really make that argument in my case...

This month as it happens UCL’s provost stated that he would let anyone speak on campus even if the speaker was a Holocaust denier ...the response was some letters expressing disapproval...

I’m not sure what your problem is...I have stated that the teacher didn’t need to use the image in class...

Captain Rishwat is right about imagery being particular issue...I mean Hitchens pretty much laid into all the Abrahamic faiths on the regular ...including mocking the Prophet...and the Quran...but no fatwa...he’s even more scathing of Judaism and the Old Testament Prophets...

So tbf I don’t really understand what what makes a cartoon so different?...why are insulting words about Mohammed not an issue but a cartoon is?...