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PTI's Tsunami March on 14th August [Mega Thread]

No idea what point you think you are arguing. Basically in a proper democracy you are allowed to protest no matter how outrageous your demands. Anjem Choudary has protested outside No.10 Downing Street and not got tear-gassed or baton charged.

Let me lay it out for you - you said in a democracy, you have the right to protest outside the PM's house and you gave your personal anecdote. You equate that right to support IK's right to protest outside NS's house.

In the protest that you or Anjem Choudhary or any TDH did outside 10 Downing, did you or anyone in your group threaten to drag the PM out? If you are unaware, IK did.

The democratic right to protest comes with responsibilities and onus of maintaining civility too - which of course IK's followers seem to conveniently ignore.


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Let me lay it out for you - you said in a democracy, you have the right to protest outside the PM's house and you gave your personal anecdote. You equate that right to support IK's right to protest outside NS's house.

In the protest that you or Anjem Choudhary or any TDH did outside 10 Downing, did you or anyone in your group threaten to drag the PM out? If you are unaware, IK did.

The democratic right to protest comes with responsibilities and onus of maintaining civility too - which of course IK's followers seem to conveniently ignore.


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Yes, but as an analyst you can criticise Imran Khan for his choice of words, however where was your analysis when Shahbaz Sharif said to the elected President of that time, Zardari, that he will drag on the roads of Lahore, Karachi, Peshawar etc. and that he will tear his stomach open and bring back Pakistan's looted wealth.

Where was your criticism when Ch. Nisar said that next time their Sit-In won't be outside President House but inside it!

So when everyone is doing it and it is a norm in Pakistan why hold it only against Imran Khan? Only reason could be personal disliking.
 
All the usual suspects from Asma Jehangir to Hussain Haqqani rejoicing Hashmi's revelations, same people who termed Afzal Khan's views as a part of script but i see many similarities and contradictions of these people.

They criticize Afzal Khan that why now but don't ask from Hashmi why so late?

Afzal Khan made arrangements for elections, held press conferences but then again Javed Hashmi also traveled far and wide to encourage Pti workers for this long march.

How on earth elections could be possible in the month of September? Afzal Khan did not make such a ludicrous comment at least.

Javed Hashmi said that Imran had been assured of the support of 5 core commanders and chief justice. Does it sound logical at all?

This is the same Javed Hashmi who despite being President of PTI, announced on the floor of the parliament that "Nawaz Sharif was my leader and still is"

So, if it is scripted then what's left in it? Violence has already resulted in 3 confirmed deaths. Are they waiting for more deaths to launch a coup? Protesters are only going to decrease.

How could i forget Najam Sethi. This is his observation. Note the word revelations here, i thought "allegations" could have been a better word here.

After Javed Hashmi's extraordinary revelations, army leadership must clear its role, thwart conspiracies & uphold law, order & constitution.
 
Yes, but as an analyst you can criticise Imran Khan for his choice of words, however where was your analysis when Shahbaz Sharif said to the elected President of that time, Zardari, that he will drag on the roads of Lahore, Karachi, Peshawar etc. and that he will tear his stomach open and bring back Pakistan's looted wealth.

Where was your criticism when Ch. Nisar said that next time their Sit-In won't be outside President House but inside it!

So when everyone is doing it and it is a norm in Pakistan why hold it only against Imran Khan? Only reason could be personal disliking.

I opened this thinking this will be another one of yours 'You're an Indian go away' rants but I'm glad to see otherwise. :)

You were still quick to jump to a conclusion that I have a personal disliking for IK. Let me make this clear for you - I have no personal likes or dislikes for anyone in this game. To me, this is a live telecast of one of the manners I believed people of India should deal with the Congress government when I was sick of their corruption. So I'm just a student and commentator of the events for my future reference.

On to your point - SS may have said things 1000X worse than what IK said. But is that we're coming down to now - comparing IK who is supposed to lead the way for a refreshing, new style of politics, to Shahbaaz Sharif?

Point is - and you know it too - those speeches were nothing short of inflammatory hate speech - meant to incite the crowds.

You may not realize this now - this has set a very dangerous precedent. Gather 20k people, incite them, and topple the government. Tomorrow IK may be the PM, but I can bet my bottom dollar that PMLN would do the same. I'd rather have IK sit outside the Red Zone for weeks to highlight global attention, than in his haste, lead to chaos and possibility of anarchy. Because when 'it' hits the fan, there will definitely be no common man rights which IK is fighting for now.


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I opened this thinking this will be another one of yours 'You're an Indian go away' rants but I'm glad to see otherwise. :)

You were still quick to jump to a conclusion that I have a personal disliking for IK. Let me make this clear for you - I have no personal likes or dislikes for anyone in this game. To me, this is a live telecast of one of the manners I believed people of India should deal with the Congress government when I was sick of their corruption. So I'm just a student and commentator of the events for my future reference.

On to your point - SS may have said things 1000X worse than what IK said. But is that we're coming down to now - comparing IK who is supposed to lead the way for a refreshing, new style of politics, to Shahbaaz Sharif?

Point is - and you know it too - those speeches were nothing short of inflammatory hate speech - meant to incite the crowds.

You may not realize this now - this has set a very dangerous precedent. Gather 20k people, incite them, and topple the government. Tomorrow IK may be the PM, but I can bet my bottom dollar that PMLN would do the same. I'd rather have IK sit outside the Red Zone for weeks to highlight global attention, than in his haste, lead to chaos and possibility of anarchy. Because when 'it' hits the fan, there will definitely be no common man rights which IK is fighting for now.


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Unfortunately, what you call hate speech, and I agree it has no place in politics, is what people in Pakistan see as "being a leader" - Its unfortunate but thats how things are and one has to do politics by taking the ground realities into account.

And as far as dangerous precedence goes, I think it is a good precedence being set. If you have valid reservations and demands and the government does not address them then they should be removed.

Plus if governments resort to Model Town massacre type behaviour, they lose moral authority to govern.
 
You may not realize this now - this has set a very dangerous precedent. Gather 20k people, incite them, and topple the government. Tomorrow IK may be the PM, but I can bet my bottom dollar that PMLN would do the same. I'd rather have IK sit outside the Red Zone for weeks to highlight global attention, than in his haste, lead to chaos and possibility of anarchy. Because when 'it' hits the fan, there will definitely be no common man rights which IK is fighting for now.
Imran Khan just said that If anybody accuse him of rigging, he will do the reelection very next day. That means that he will not let the situation escalate like Laptop sharif or murder people for practicing their democratic rights. It doesn't matter what you would rather have. You don't live there nor you will ever vote for any government in Pakistan.
 
Baaghi>>>>>>>Imran Khan

If Baaghi reunites with the Sher then its game for the likes of IK and TUQ
 
Baaghi>>>>>>>Imran Khan

If Baaghi reunites with the Sher then its game for the likes of IK and TUQ

Its time for Baaghi to retire. How exactly the protests will be affected if some unfaithful guy joins Laptop sharif?
 
Nothing wrong with it, only it happened within a year and with no apparent reason. Has TUQ changed in any way from last year. He was the same guy who took his followers to the wintery wet outdoor picnic spot in Islo two years ago while he enjoyed the view from his cozy and comfortable container and turned around when his all too precious ego was massaged by the skillful PPP govt. Now he is back from Canada, somehow resuscitated out of retirement for who knows what reason and asking and demanding pretty much the same things and following the same tactics and now PTI along with Ms.Mazari is all kosher about it. Is this just a change of heart or change of ideology from Ms.Mazari and PTI or is it just political convenience, you tell me?

Actually Qadri undermines the intent of entire protest. A Canadian coming to Pakistan after year's break to again begin his inqalab. Without going into specifics, this narrative itself is hard to digest.
 
Why, if you don't mind me asking?

As a human being he is a role model to me and is someone I look up to in life. Some of his quotes such as "jo banda haar nhi maanta usai koyi kabhi nhi hara sakta" really inspire me. By applying his own philosophies such as not letting realities get in your way, I've achieved a lot in my life. Other basic principles of his such as his strong belief in honesty is something I live my life by as well. Ever since I've been young I've been listening to Imran Khan and his views on life and political situation and it just clicks with me. He is what a real Muslim should be. Balanced, liberal in ideas but not moving away from the basic tenants of what Islam is about.

To me he has all the qualities (and has proved) that he is a natural leader. Believes in what he does, stays honest to his followers and fights for what is right; No matter what people say (naive, one seat party, Yahoodi, Taliban) he doesn't back down from his stance (which is why some say he is stubborn).

I'm trying to explain to you why I follow him since you asked. Not trying to convince anyone else so if anyone quotes me on how I'm "wrong" about this I'm not really sure how to answer.
 
Actually Qadri undermines the intent of entire protest. A Canadian coming to Pakistan after year's break to again begin his inqalab. Without going into specifics, this narrative itself is hard to digest.

It's easier to digest than a Jeddah resident being our prime minister.
 
Let me lay it out for you - you said in a democracy, you have the right to protest outside the PM's house and you gave your personal anecdote. You equate that right to support IK's right to protest outside NS's house.

In the protest that you or Anjem Choudhary or any TDH did outside 10 Downing, did you or anyone in your group threaten to drag the PM out? If you are unaware, IK did.

The democratic right to protest comes with responsibilities and onus of maintaining civility too - which of course IK's followers seem to conveniently ignore.


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Plus, the act of removing containers by using cranes....can that happen outside the White House or 10 Downing Street....I don't think so.


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Forget about all the rigging on election day, but tell me have they barred a single candidate from contesting on the basis of tax evasion or defaulting ? Sharif's and even current opposition leader have cases pending against them in the NAB. We all know that majority of parliamentarians even don't pay taxes.



So, what's next on the script guys? [MENTION=2071]saadibaba[/MENTION] [MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION]

And i want your opinion on this Bangladesh Model just as a student , not necessarily in the light of this current political spectrum. [MENTION=14431]blinding light[/MENTION] [MENTION=3327]Indiafan[/MENTION] [MENTION=236]Vegitto[/MENTION]

Yaar koi model shodel nahi chahhiye, just let the system work. It did nothing for Bangladesh and it won't do anything for Pakistan. This march would have been hailed as a great success if PTI would have turned around after getting five out of their six demands, which they had. The march was still peaceful, Army was not involved at least directly and these reforms could have paved the way for a better system with efficient checks and balances by the opposition parties and ultimately a win win for democracy. But IK had tasted blood and there was no turning back. Hashmi's revelations tells you how the mayhem could have been easily prevented or at least PTI could have come out clean with no blood on their hands. Now it's become a holy mess, a proverbial @&$! storm. Nothing can come out of it now other than the army's hand getting stronger and more powerful and the civilians looking like unruly kids who are still incapable of handling themselves and have to be scolded and put in their place repeatedly.

The game has taken too many unexpected turns and I feel now even the Army doesn't have full control of the matter. It's come down to counting your loses and moving on. The exit strategy is in debate by the legal experts to provide some face saving for everyone, something within the parameters and realms of our constitution. Army clearly does not want to take over. Their goal was always to weaken NS to the point of making him worse than Zardari. That objective has been achieved. Now they have to find a way to reign in their horses as to not hurt their image to the point of no repair. TUQ will survive as his cult followers know no more and less than what he tells them. IK on the other hand has been greatly discredited and damaged by all this. There is still time however to listen to the saner figures in his party and go home. Let this be a lesson for him to never try these kinds of thuggish tactics again.

As Shireen Mazari so eloquently stated in her article in the News I posted, wish she could just whisper the same into IK's ear right now.

"Distasteful as it may be, we have to allow the system to continue and hope people will choose new faces, who will in turn bring reform to the electoral system through parliamentary legislation. We need a system of proportional representation; of unhinging the roots of support for corruption in politics such the misnomer “development funds,” and so on. But these changes need to come through letting the electoral system continue, which may make the task more daunting but it is the only legitimate way. Too many non-democratic interventions have already destroyed the fabric of this nation."


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Finally, someone said it out loud. Bravo!





Dawn's editorial "Army's questionable decisions"

The carefully constructed veneer of neutrality that the army leadership had constructed through much of the national political crisis instigated by Imran Khan and Tahirul Qadri has been torn apart.


First, came the army’s statement on Sunday, the third in a series of statements in recent days on the political crisis, which quite astonishingly elevated the legitimacy and credibility of the demands of Imran Khan, Tahirul Qadri and their violent protesters above that of the choices and actions of an elected government dealing with a political crisis.

Consider the sequence of events so far. When the army first publicly waded into the political crisis, it counselled restraint on all sides — as though it was the government that fundamentally still had some questions hanging over its legitimacy simply because Imran Khan and Tahirul Qadri alleged so.

Next, the army crept towards the Khan/Qadri camp by urging the government to facilitate negotiations — as though it was the government that was being unreasonable, and not Mr Khan and Mr Qadri.

Now, staggeringly, the army has ‘advised’ the government not to use force against violent protesters and essentially told it to make whatever concessions necessary to placate Mr Khan and Mr Qadri.

It is simply extraordinary that it is the PAT and PTI supporters who want to break into and occupy state buildings, but it is the government that has been rebuked.

It’s as if the army is unaware — rather, unwilling — to acknowledge the constitutional scheme of things: it is the government that is supposed to give orders to the army, not the other way around.

The government has already issued its order: invoking Article 245.

On Saturday, as violent thugs attacked parliament, it was surely the army’s duty to repel them.

But the soldiers stationed there did nothing and the army leadership the next day warned the government instead of the protesters — which largely explains why the protesters were able to continue their pitched battles with the police and attacked the PTV headquarters yesterday.

If that were not enough, yesterday also brought another thunderbolt: this time from within the PTI with party president Javed Hashmi indicating that Mr Khan is essentially doing what he has been asked and encouraged to do by the army leadership.

It took the ISPR a few hours to respond with the inevitable denial, but a mere denial is inadequate at this point. The functioning of the state stands paralysed because a few thousand protesters and their leaders have laid siege to state institutions.

Where is the army condemnation of that?

Would the army allow even a handful of peaceful protesters to gather outside GHQ for a few hours?

The army is hardly being ‘neutral’. It is making a choice.

And, it is disappointing that choice is doing little to strengthen the constitutional, democratic and legitimate scheme of things.

http://www.dawn.com/news/1129263/armys-questionable-decisions


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When you praise as little as things like bridges even though you admit that it is not the best utilization of funds or you admiring getting a municipal service satisfactorily while ignoring the overall sins of this same regime then i get a feeling that you have a soft corner for them.
But then you categorize Hashmi's words startling revelations when he claims that establishment has planned elections in September.

Highlighting trivial good steps of one party and criticizing trivial faults of another one gives me an impression that you are just inclined
towards a certain party.

My question still stands - have you taken a look at my foreign policy critique? Do yourself a favour and read that before voicing your impressions of me.

Open your mind and look at my own motivation behind my words. When I have a first hand experience of lower-urban class actually praising the roads/bridges/Metro Bus projects, do you want me to completely discount that?

I never withold credit where its due. I saw something as a positive development in bureaucracy which I wanted to be emulated across the board in the entire country. Does that mean I don't want clean water or better health care services? Or does that mean I approve of the widespread corruption?

And I categorised as Hashmi's words as startling revelations because this was supposedly the President of PTI airing it's dirty laundry in public. To me, the very act of this occurring holds some meaning, even if everyone rushes to deny it. But you won't understand it, PTI supporters have a history of hyping someone up and then badmouthing them once they disagree.

Forget about all the rigging on election day, but tell me have they barred a single candidate from contesting on the basis of tax evasion or defaulting ? Sharif's and even current opposition leader have cases pending against them in the NAB. We all know that majority of parliamentarians even don't pay taxes.

So, what's next on the script guys? [MENTION=2071]saadibaba[/MENTION] [MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION]

And i want your opinion on this Bangladesh Model just as a student , not necessarily in the light of this current political spectrum. [MENTION=14431]blinding light[/MENTION] [MENTION=3327]Indiafan[/MENTION] [MENTION=236]Vegitto[/MENTION]

On paper, this looks perfect. But it's the practicality that concerns me. Explicitly handing over affairs to army and judiciary in a bid to "cleanse" the system practically means that forget the judiciary, the army will be running the affairs. There will be no cleansing, just replacement of all political actors with military ones, and our military despite performing a crucially important role, isn't 100% free from corrupt elements either.

Given the current state of affairs and now-present view of democracy, I don't think even the Army wants democracy to go. Either that, or they are really playing their cards well. I could be wrong, but just my 2 cents.
 
[MENTION=2071]saadibaba[/MENTION] - S. Mazari mentioned employing proportional representation as a way of reforming the entire electoral system. Hardly a novel development - all minority parties want this as it gives them the maximum number of seats after an election.
 
Future Politics in Pakistan is going to be PTI vs Anti-PTI
 
Atizaz Ahsan in Parliament: Mr PM your party stole elections, Your Govt is corrupt, Your Govt killed people, Your ministers are incompetent but don't resign we are with democracy not with you. Speechless!
 
IK need to listen to Aitzaz Ahsans speech and should learn the democratic way of talking. I hope we will see the drop scene of this dharna soon now, clearly first time in history of Pakistan military is pushed back thanks to PPP. I hope Gov dont screw this further and now start meaningful dialogue. I don't see anything positive coming from this march anytime soon but in long term it will help keep a lot of things in control. NS will understand the importance of opposition parties now and his ministers should keep them selves in control.

I think solution for me now these points should be accepted. I think just 1st one was not accepted by Gov.

1) Resignation of Punjab chief minister.

2) Audit of the government’s 14-month expenses

3) Bringing culprits of the alleged vote fraud in the 2013 general elections to book.

4) Electoral reforms prior to fresh elections.

5) Re-elections for all assemblies. (based on new results after audit of election)

6) Installation of impartial interim government before new elections. (whenever assembly decide the date of new election)

High time for PTI to shake hands with PPP on this and try to get these things done.
 
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Atizaz Ahsan in Parliament: Mr PM your party stole elections, Your Govt is corrupt, Your Govt killed people, Your ministers are incompetent but don't resign we are with democracy not with you. Speechless!

Why speechless? this is what most people here who were against the march were saying. It is much better to bring them to book through the system for the long term good of Pakistan than an overthrowing of a government
 
Why speechless? this is what most people here who were against the march were saying. It is much better to bring them to book through the system for the long term good of Pakistan than an overthrowing of a government

Everyone who knows the history of these parties specially PML (N) knows these are just statements nothing is going to happen and they said similar things in past to protect this corrupt system. Just look at COD (Charter of Democracy) between PMl (N) and PPP how many points they followed in last 5 years? and thn look at that so called NRO (National Reconciliation Ordinance) how many corrupt politicians were protected because of that and guess what US govt was involved in NRO because our so called democratic parties don't trust anyone here. These statements will remains on papers only nothings is going to happen and nothing is going to change. We as a nation deserve this and we are equality responsible because we dont raise our voice.
 
PTI being soundly thrashed in parliament. Aitzaz Ahsan cut IK down to size with his speech. And Fazlu with his cheap shots will hurt PTI's image as well.
 
PTI being soundly thrashed in parliament. Aitzaz Ahsan cut IK down to size with his speech. And Fazlu with his cheap shots will hurt PTI's image as well.

Maybe PTI will suffer a huge loss in short term but i think future politics of Pakistan is going to be PTI vs Anti-PTI
 
Imran Khan has lost this hands down. It's all over in Islamabad, should just call it a day and pack up. No point further embarrassing yourself.

My advise: take back resignations (if possible).....deliver model performance in KPK, sound opposition in NA. Above all, keep distance from Army and their mouths like Sh Rasheed and J. Tareen.

Four years are a very long time in Pakistani siasat. Everyone will forget this fiasco and they will have no other choice to vote for IK. Sharif governance would be well exposed by then to people.
 
Atizaz Ahsan in Parliament: Mr PM your party stole elections, Your Govt is corrupt, Your Govt killed people, Your ministers are incompetent but don't resign we are with democracy not with you. Speechless!

Same reaction here!
 
Imran Khan has lost this hands down. It's all over in Islamabad, should just call it a day and pack up. No point further embarrassing yourself.

My advise: take back resignations (if possible).....deliver model performance in KPK, sound opposition in NA. Above all, keep distance from Army and their mouths like Sh Rasheed and J. Tareen.

Four years are a very long time in Pakistani siasat. Everyone will forget this fiasco and they will have no other choice to vote for IK. Sharif governance would be well exposed by then to people.

agree with this wholeheartedly
 
lol, well IK isn't going anywhere and neither are his supporters, they've fired tear gas called em terrorists but they are still there. The longer they stay the more Nawaz gets weaker. the ppp can support it all they want, but the reality is sooner or they will have to come out and talk. What happens if they stay for another two weeks? then what? the parliament are mere toothless. All this bluster means diddly squat. the people are sitting on the lawn of the house and are not going anywhere.
 
Imran Khan has lost this hands down. It's all over in Islamabad, should just call it a day and pack up. No point further embarrassing yourself.

My advise: take back resignations (if possible).....deliver model performance in KPK, sound opposition in NA. Above all, keep distance from Army and their mouths like Sh Rasheed and J. Tareen.

Four years are a very long time in Pakistani siasat. Everyone will forget this fiasco and they will have no other choice to vote for IK. Sharif governance would be well exposed by then to people.

lol the next election will be rigged to an unprecedented scale and bilawal will be your prime minister, Imran will be destroyed in KP by the alliance of JUIF and ANP/PPP. Imran will be lucky to keep his own seat. So forget about some pure election. You people have no idea how things work on the ground in places like Punjab.
 
Javed Hashmi looks confused i just don't know what to say...

Some points from his speech now in Parliament:

Imran khan do not want to derail the system.

Imran Khan has large number of youth with him.

Imran gave me respect more thn anyone else.
 
My question still stands - have you taken a look at my foreign policy critique? Do yourself a favour and read that before voicing your impressions of me.

Open your mind and look at my own motivation behind my words. When I have a first hand experience of lower-urban class actually praising the roads/bridges/Metro Bus projects, do you want me to completely discount that?

I never withold credit where its due. I saw something as a positive development in bureaucracy which I wanted to be emulated across the board in the entire country. Does that mean I don't want clean water or better health care services? Or does that mean I approve of the widespread corruption?

And I categorised as Hashmi's words as startling revelations because this was supposedly the President of PTI airing it's dirty laundry in public. To me, the very act of this occurring holds some meaning, even if everyone rushes to deny it. But you won't understand it, PTI supporters have a history of hyping someone up and then badmouthing them once they disagree.



On paper, this looks perfect. But it's the practicality that concerns me. Explicitly handing over affairs to army and judiciary in a bid to "cleanse" the system practically means that forget the judiciary, the army will be running the affairs. There will be no cleansing, just replacement of all political actors with military ones, and our military despite performing a crucially important role, isn't 100% free from corrupt elements either.

Given the current state of affairs and now-present view of democracy, I don't think even the Army wants democracy to go. Either that, or they are really playing their cards well. I could be wrong, but just my 2 cents.

Lol at your foreign policy critique, I myself criticized Imran's ill advised, poorly planned and ineffective long march. Does that mean that i am a neutral here?

In another thread you are terming Imran a fool and a bufoon. I would take that for an impression.

What bureaucracy you are talking about? Where officers are selected because of personal relationship with Shahbaz? That horrible incident of Model town would have never happened if officers had loyalties to law and not to Sharif family.

I have never praised Javed Hashmi, i would better call this accusations than revelations considering what he said about his leader Nawaz Sharif despite being a PTI president. Elections in september. How on earth this is possible?


It can't be never 100 percent corruption free.
 
lol the next election will be rigged to an unprecedented scale and bilawal will be your prime minister, Imran will be destroyed in KP by the alliance of JUIF and ANP/PPP. Imran will be lucky to keep his own seat. So forget about some pure election. You people have no idea how things work on the ground in places like Punjab.

I see your point, and it holds weight given our electoral history.

But Imran Khan will never get a better chance to impose his reforms of choice. He should have used this pressure to fix the election system so that next elections would have been better, if not water tight.

Whether we like it or not, the only person who lost in this episode is Imran Khan. NS and his badshahat comes out stronger, Army is sacred so no one will point fingers, TuQ has no stakes in the system and got nothing to lose.

Imran is the only leader in these lot of clowns, and our only hope. Really sad to see him lose.
 
Yaar koi model shodel nahi chahhiye, just let the system work. It did nothing for Bangladesh and it won't do anything for Pakistan. This march would have been hailed as a great success if PTI would have turned around after getting five out of their six demands, which they had. The march was still peaceful, Army was not involved at least directly and these reforms could have paved the way for a better system with efficient checks and balances by the opposition parties and ultimately a win win for democracy. But IK had tasted blood and there was no turning back. Hashmi's revelations tells you how the mayhem could have been easily prevented or at least PTI could have come out clean with no blood on their hands. Now it's become a holy mess, a proverbial @&$! storm. Nothing can come out of it now other than the army's hand getting stronger and more powerful and the civilians looking like unruly kids who are still incapable of handling themselves and have to be scolded and put in their place repeatedly.

The game has taken too many unexpected turns and I feel now even the Army doesn't have full control of the matter. It's come down to counting your loses and moving on. The exit strategy is in debate by the legal experts to provide some face saving for everyone, something within the parameters and realms of our constitution. Army clearly does not want to take over. Their goal was always to weaken NS to the point of making him worse than Zardari. That objective has been achieved. Now they have to find a way to reign in their horses as to not hurt their image to the point of no repair. TUQ will survive as his cult followers know no more and less than what he tells them. IK on the other hand has been greatly discredited and damaged by all this. There is still time however to listen to the saner figures in his party and go home. Let this be a lesson for him to never try these kinds of thuggish tactics again.

As Shireen Mazari so eloquently stated in her article in the News I posted, wish she could just whisper the same into IK's ear right now.

"Distasteful as it may be, we have to allow the system to continue and hope people will choose new faces, who will in turn bring reform to the electoral system through parliamentary legislation. We need a system of proportional representation; of unhinging the roots of support for corruption in politics such the misnomer “development funds,” and so on. But these changes need to come through letting the electoral system continue, which may make the task more daunting but it is the only legitimate way. Too many non-democratic interventions have already destroyed the fabric of this nation."


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You are just narrating this situation but my question is that how this system can improve from within and within reasonable period. I won't make it complex for you. Some symptoms of this disease are discussed below.

1) Most of these parliamentarians don't pay taxes, hide their assets , some are bank defaulters. Although they don't pay anything yet they get privileges because of tax payer's money , further more they hardly use anything from the developmental funds they get each year , from National assembly members to members of the provincial assemblies.

2) Political parties have become dynasties.

3) Election process is flawed from the formulation of election commission itself. There is no scrutiny of candidates even on the basis of tax evasion, bank defaulting let alone some other serious crimes. Then voting system itself is flawed. A person living in rural sindh votes as his vadera commands and in rural Punjab as his chaudhry or baradari wants. They vote on his desire because they fear that they won't be able to find justice in thana/court without his support. Then candidates exploit the poor by bribing them to get their votes.
Then a party getting 15 million votes has about 200 seats in National assembly where as the other getting half of these votes only gets 35 ( not even fourth part) !

This election system gets every sort of criminal like a tax evader, gas thief , bank defaulter or financially corrupt elected. In some cases these parliamentarians are even murderers but they just don't get the limelight because with the money and intimidation they buy police or harass witnesses.

4) What do you say about the governance, democracy and justice system in our society where 14 people are murdered but what to talk of criminal proceedings no one is ready to resign or register a F.I.R?
 
I see your point, and it holds weight given our electoral history.

But Imran Khan will never get a better chance to impose his reforms of choice. He should have used this pressure to fix the election system so that next elections would have been better, if not water tight.

Whether we like it or not, the only person who lost in this episode is Imran Khan. NS and his badshahat comes out stronger, Army is sacred so no one will point fingers, TuQ has no stakes in the system and got nothing to lose.

Imran is the only leader in these lot of clowns, and our only hope. Really sad to see him lose.

lol lose? He has already won. why you ask? let me explain.

Here are the scenarios:

1) The PMLN realise these protestors are not going anywhere and decide to negotiate. Somehow they manage to convince the PTI that Nawaz doesn't have to resign but we agree on to your demands. Perhaps they agree that the PM either takes a brief sabbatical that they call something else? or they fudge it with some clever terminology. Either way IK wins because he has managed to force the govt to agree to his demands.

2) The PMLN stick to their guns and maintain their gullubutt style stance. Send in the police to clear the protestors, peoplea re killed , arrested and shot, Imran is arrested , SMQ hurt, other local eladers either injured or even killed. Imran wins because he becomes a legend. the man who stood upto badshah salamat and never gave up for Pakistan. And we all know what happens to Pakistani leaders when they go to jail. Win for Imran.

3) The army takes over. Asks the PM nad his brother to resign as their is a kutal ka muqadama against them, force the PMLN to nominate someone else and announce elections. Imran wins again.

4) More demonstrations erupt across the country, dharnay, strikes, paralysis. The MQM gets involved in akrachi seizing and opportunity. The opportunistic PPP relaise the numbers up and secretly remove support for the PM. Imran wins.

5) the demos peter out, Imran is left on his own and is arrested or just goes back to bani gala with his tail between his legs. The PM gives a rousing speech condemning him but leaving the door open for a return to parliament for the PTI parliamentary group. The PTI as we know it becomes a kpk only party , and is eventually destroyed by mass rigging at the next election when bilawal becomes PM. Imran continues his work with the people e.g. skmh, namal etc, dies a legend. Pakistanis weep and watch as their country is turned into a fiefdom by the sharif and zardari clans. eventually due to the crippling poverty and mismanagement, a peasant revolt erupts, leading to martial law and re-elections/more dictatorship. A new hardline Islamist faction rises from within the middle class that has no tolerance for just about anything. The road to Syria begins.

6) Imran manages to get a promise of re-elections within 90 days if rigging is proven without doubt and Nawaz agrees to resign if its proven they rigged the election. Nawaz puts his mandate on the line. A new electoral commission is agreed by all sides after painstaking deliberation using interlocuters who are neutral. Judicial reform is announcement in parliament by the law ministry and even ch nisar agrees to police reform. Everyone agrees to accept the verdict of the new elections so that Pakistan can proceed forward.
 
You are just narrating this situation but my question is that how this system can improve from within and within reasonable period. I won't make it complex for you. Some symptoms of this disease are discussed below.

1) Most of these parliamentarians don't pay taxes, hide their assets , some are bank defaulters. Although they don't pay anything yet they get privileges because of tax payer's money , further more they hardly use anything from the developmental funds they get each year , from National assembly members to members of the provincial assemblies.

2) Political parties have become dynasties.

3) Election process is flawed from the formulation of election commission itself. There is no scrutiny of candidates even on the basis of tax evasion, bank defaulting let alone some other serious crimes. Then voting system itself is flawed. A person living in rural sindh votes as his vadera commands and in rural Punjab as his chaudhry or baradari wants. They vote on his desire because they fear that they won't be able to find justice in thana/court without his support. Then candidates exploit the poor by bribing them to get their votes.
Then a party getting 15 million votes has about 200 seats in National assembly where as the other getting half of these votes only gets 35 ( not even fourth part) !

This election system gets every sort of criminal like a tax evader, gas thief , bank defaulter or financially corrupt elected. In some cases these parliamentarians are even murderers but they just don't get the limelight because with the money and intimidation they buy police or harass witnesses.

4) What do you say about the governance, democracy and justice system in our society where 14 people are murdered but what to talk of criminal proceedings no one is ready to resign or register a F.I.R?

this is the system they want to protect. Why?
 
Not even a single party in the parliament is honest barring PTI.All are crooks.
 
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As a human being he is a role model to me and is someone I look up to in life. Some of his quotes such as "jo banda haar nhi maanta usai koyi kabhi nhi hara sakta" really inspire me. By applying his own philosophies such as not letting realities get in your way, I've achieved a lot in my life. Other basic principles of his such as his strong belief in honesty is something I live my life by as well. Ever since I've been young I've been listening to Imran Khan and his views on life and political situation and it just clicks with me. He is what a real Muslim should be. Balanced, liberal in ideas but not moving away from the basic tenants of what Islam is about.

To me he has all the qualities (and has proved) that he is a natural leader. Believes in what he does, stays honest to his followers and fights for what is right; No matter what people say (naive, one seat party, Yahoodi, Taliban) he doesn't back down from his stance (which is why some say he is stubborn).

I'm trying to explain to you why I follow him since you asked. Not trying to convince anyone else so if anyone quotes me on how I'm "wrong" about this I'm not really sure how to answer.

I asked because I have never really liked his life philosophies, not because of Imran Khan himself but because I have a general dislike for all the ''sport is a school of life'' motivational guru types parading as deep thinkers.
I also don't consider any of his achievements pre-1995 as deserving of the personality cult he benefits from but his philanthropic benefices and successful reconversion from red cherry thrower to proeminent leader of the sixth most populated country in the world are definitely admirable.
 
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lol lose? He has already won. why you ask? let me explain.

Here are the scenarios:

1) The PMLN realise these protestors are not going anywhere and decide to negotiate. Somehow they manage to convince the PTI that Nawaz doesn't have to resign but we agree on to your demands. Perhaps they agree that the PM either takes a brief sabbatical that they call something else? or they fudge it with some clever terminology. Either way IK wins because he has managed to force the govt to agree to his demands.

2) The PMLN stick to their guns and maintain their gullubutt style stance. Send in the police to clear the protestors, peoplea re killed , arrested and shot, Imran is arrested , SMQ hurt, other local eladers either injured or even killed. Imran wins because he becomes a legend. the man who stood upto badshah salamat and never gave up for Pakistan. And we all know what happens to Pakistani leaders when they go to jail. Win for Imran.

3) The army takes over. Asks the PM nad his brother to resign as their is a kutal ka muqadama against them, force the PMLN to nominate someone else and announce elections. Imran wins again.

4) More demonstrations erupt across the country, dharnay, strikes, paralysis. The MQM gets involved in akrachi seizing and opportunity. The opportunistic PPP relaise the numbers up and secretly remove support for the PM. Imran wins.

5) the demos peter out, Imran is left on his own and is arrested or just goes back to bani gala with his tail between his legs. The PM gives a rousing speech condemning him but leaving the door open for a return to parliament for the PTI parliamentary group. The PTI as we know it becomes a kpk only party , and is eventually destroyed by mass rigging at the next election when bilawal becomes PM. Imran continues his work with the people e.g. skmh, namal etc, dies a legend. Pakistanis weep and watch as their country is turned into a fiefdom by the sharif and zardari clans. eventually due to the crippling poverty and mismanagement, a peasant revolt erupts, leading to martial law and re-elections/more dictatorship. A new hardline Islamist faction rises from within the middle class that has no tolerance for just about anything. The road to Syria begins.

6) Imran manages to get a promise of re-elections within 90 days if rigging is proven without doubt and Nawaz agrees to resign if its proven they rigged the election. Nawaz puts his mandate on the line. A new electoral commission is agreed by all sides after painstaking deliberation using interlocuters who are neutral. Judicial reform is announcement in parliament by the law ministry and even ch nisar agrees to police reform. Everyone agrees to accept the verdict of the new elections so that Pakistan can proceed forward.

1. With Ch. Nisar hinting in Parliament today at Article 6 'Baghawat' proceedings against IQ and TuQ, I don't see how they will be willing to send a negotiation team. If they do, they'll compromise the support they gathered today in parliament. PM won't take a resignation/leave/sabbatical whatever. He didn't during times in last 20 days when he was in very weak and morally tight spot. Now though he is much stronger and "savior of democracy".

2. Most likely scenario. This will be the much need "face saving" or "safe passage" that PTI needs to back down from their lofty demands and protest. However, govt will be wise to not interfere and let it fizzle out especially with the string-pullers now exposed I don't think Imran/PTI will have much motivation themselves. Media too is now fully on PML-N side after yesterday and won't provide any mileage to PTI stance.

3. This is what Imran was hoping all along and guaranteed by Sh Rasheed/Tareen etc. But Hashmi spoiled the script at the 11th hour. Not happening now.

4. MQM has cleverly jumped on the govt. side today. Their MNA today even threatened PTI of consequences if such riotful protests ever occur in Karachi. They are opportunists to the core, and must have seen army backing out of plot. Can't see PPP changing side after this much-praised stance. But all this argument assumes that dharna, protest will be prolonged....can't see it happening now.

5. Sadly most probable and likely. But worse, PML-N will hit PTI now when its at it weakest. It will close the only entry door available to them atm...they will accept resignations. Move of No confidence is already rolled in KPK. Molana/ANP/Sherpao will overthrow Khattak. With no govt anywhere and four long years of wait, selfish 2nd tier leaders will jump the ship and PTI will be back to 2010. PPP-PMLN muk-muka continues....

6. Nawaz can't be trusted to hold his word. And I don't think any 'guarantor' will now come in between to broker such an agreement...what with army and SC both discredited. Even if elections are held, rigging or no rigging, PML-N will sweep it hands down. You like it or not, but people in Punjab ARE satisfied with their performance and have genuinely trust their plans. PTI will lose in KPK. Back to 2010.

Imran Khan has only himself to blame.
 
Yes. Everyone but Imran Khan is a cheat and a fraud. Every single person in the world except Imran Khan is corrupt. Imran Khan is a saint.

Oh geez get over it.


Imran tried to derail democracy and fell flat on his face. I do not disagree with the points raised by him as they were correct however, the methods adopted were absurd. It was the wrong call to march and to continue doing so after most demands had been met.

Only thing Imran wants is power if this were not the case he should have backed down was the army agreed to investigate the election results independently. This was a victory for him and the nation. However, he wants to become Prime Minister so he's not going to stop until Nawaz resigns.

It was his poor decision to march towards a restricted area which resulted in the police backlash and the ensuing deaths. The government had allowed the protesters to continue protesting in that area for 16 days. Why the need to march in front of the parliament or PM house when they knew it was going to result in violence. Imran knew what would happen when he made that decision it was clear from his speech when he asked women and children to stay behind.

We talk about political parties becoming dynasties yet ignore the fact that Imran's party is a monarchy. He's the king. He got rid of an elected president of the party and sacked others who refused to listen to him. The MNA's who refused to resign were also sacked. So, its either my way or the highway. King Khan always gets his way.

This notion about parliamentarians not paying tax is completely absurd and is not backed by any evidence. I do not disagree with the point that these guys are corrupt and have been involved in fishy deals however, they have been paying their taxes. In fact, in 2013 Nawaz paid more tax than Imran. yet, Imran still calls him out on not paying tax. Baseless accusations.
 
Ik should stick to his stance and call a spade a spade even if the entire nation behaves in its typical usual cowardly manner.

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1. With Ch. Nisar hinting in Parliament today at Article 6 'Baghawat' proceedings against IQ and TuQ, I don't see how they will be willing to send a negotiation team. If they do, they'll compromise the support they gathered today in parliament. PM won't take a resignation/leave/sabbatical whatever. He didn't during times in last 20 days when he was in very weak and morally tight spot. Now though he is much stronger and "savior of democracy".

2. Most likely scenario. This will be the much need "face saving" or "safe passage" that PTI needs to back down from their lofty demands and protest. However, govt will be wise to not interfere and let it fizzle out especially with the string-pullers now exposed I don't think Imran/PTI will have much motivation themselves. Media too is now fully on PML-N side after yesterday and won't provide any mileage to PTI stance.

3. This is what Imran was hoping all along and guaranteed by Sh Rasheed/Tareen etc. But Hashmi spoiled the script at the 11th hour. Not happening now.

4. MQM has cleverly jumped on the govt. side today. Their MNA today even threatened PTI of consequences if such riotful protests ever occur in Karachi. They are opportunists to the core, and must have seen army backing out of plot. Can't see PPP changing side after this much-praised stance. But all this argument assumes that dharna, protest will be prolonged....can't see it happening now.

5. Sadly most probable and likely. But worse, PML-N will hit PTI now when its at it weakest. It will close the only entry door available to them atm...they will accept resignations. Move of No confidence is already rolled in KPK. Molana/ANP/Sherpao will overthrow Khattak. With no govt anywhere and four long years of wait, selfish 2nd tier leaders will jump the ship and PTI will be back to 2010. PPP-PMLN muk-muka continues....

6. Nawaz can't be trusted to hold his word. And I don't think any 'guarantor' will now come in between to broker such an agreement...what with army and SC both discredited. Even if elections are held, rigging or no rigging, PML-N will sweep it hands down. You like it or not, but people in Punjab ARE satisfied with their performance and have genuinely trust their plans. PTI will lose in KPK. Back to 2010.

Imran Khan has only himself to blame.

lol your making it sound as if suddenly everything has changed. That suddenly Imran is weak etc etc. Imran is exactly where he was when he started. Nothing has changed. Nobody was supporting him from the beginning and nobody (and I mean the current political parties) are supporting him now. They will have to clear the dharna area, There is no doubt about it. and then what? scenario 2. They have raised the stakes so much after todays disgraceful demonstration in parliament that they will have to attack.

Every1's talking as if hashmi was telling the truth. He has zero proof. Other than some innuendo. ISPR denied it all, else what do they care. they would have taken over if they wanted to. The fact is this will continue.

and everything has changed. Imran has once again given the people the opportunity to express themselves without fear.
 
Ik should stick to his stance and call a spade a spade even if the entire nation behaves in its typical usual cowardly manner.

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Pakistani people do not deserve a man like IK.They love their Sharifs,Zardaris and Altafs.
 
A smart move by IK. Sending SMQ and all PTI MNA's to National Assembly tomorrow to give answers to all the parties there.
 
Yes. Everyone but Imran Khan is a cheat and a fraud. Every single person in the world except Imran Khan is corrupt. Imran Khan is a saint.


nobody is saying that so please stop being such a drama queen. What he is asking for is his right, unless you think only certain people in Pakistan deserve rights.


Oh geez get over it.


Imran tried to derail democracy and fell flat on his face. I do not disagree with the points raised by him as they were correct however, the methods adopted were absurd. It was the wrong call to march and to continue doing so after most demands had been met.


what demands? nothing had been met, what guarantee of justice under this govt? none. Every democracy has this mechanism. If your mandate has been challenged you put it on the line. Nawaz didn't because he doesn't have one. They were mere proposals.

Only thing Imran wants is power if this were not the case he should have backed down was the army agreed to investigate the election results independently. This was a victory for him and the nation. However, he wants to become Prime Minister so he's not going to stop until Nawaz resigns.

No if he wanted power he could have had it ages ago by joining ganja. He didn't. He's world famous is arguably the most recognisable Pakistani, what does he need power for? There was no agreement and no guarantee. That's the issue. Nothing in writing only talk, mere slogans, nothing concrete. In two months this govt has killed over 20 people injured over 500 and trampled on the rights of innocent demonstrators what guarantee they would allow this? their word? lol


It was his poor decision to march towards a restricted area which resulted in the police backlash and the ensuing deaths. The government had allowed the protesters to continue protesting in that area for 16 days. Why the need to march in front of the parliament or PM house when they knew it was going to result in violence. Imran knew what would happen when he made that decision it was clear from his speech when he asked women and children to stay behind.

there was always the fear that the police may, do this but nobody thought they would actually do it. Why fire? the demonstrators were peaceful, they were merely moving outside. It was to ratchet up the bargaining posture and position. But the gullubutts in charge couldn't take it. How dare this upstart exercise his right to tell them where to go? how dare he. And they showed us what they are.


We talk about political parties becoming dynasties yet ignore the fact that Imran's party is a monarchy. He's the king. He got rid of an elected president of the party and sacked others who refused to listen to him. The MNA's who refused to resign were also sacked. So, its either my way or the highway. King Khan always gets his way.

No he's the chairman, they have a democratic process, Hashmi is still the president and i'm sorry if a member of the labour party did what hashmi did he would have to resign too. It was disgraceful what hashmi did and exposed himself to accusations. Also why didn't anyone else on the core committee resign with hashmi then? he was isolated and needed to find a way out. Good riddance. He will eventually be voted out but as of now has resigned anyway. No member of the PTI thought what hashmi did was right. it wasn't hence his isolation and tragic display. A tragic figure now.

This notion about parliamentarians not paying tax is completely absurd and is not backed by any evidence. I do not disagree with the point that these guys are corrupt and have been involved in fishy deals however, they have been paying their taxes. In fact, in 2013 Nawaz paid more tax than Imran. yet, Imran still calls him out on not paying tax. Baseless accusations.

no no Nawaz is the straightest politician in the history of Pakistan. He is the messiah who will build another motorway and increase peoples standards of living . Well those who live in ISLU and LAHORE anyway.
what about the basics? I guarantee in five years he will build a few new roads, plant some tree's, get a bus service going, and that's it. You'll all be happy because when you visit paksitan after a few years it will have nice roads like the uk and youll all think its great. But infant mortality will rise, education will disintegrate and discontent will continue.
 
Lol at your foreign policy critique, I myself criticized Imran's ill advised, poorly planned and ineffective long march. Does that mean that i am a neutral here?

In another thread you are terming Imran a fool and a bufoon. I would take that for an impression.

What bureaucracy you are talking about? Where officers are selected because of personal relationship with Shahbaz? That horrible incident of Model town would have never happened if officers had loyalties to law and not to Sharif family.

I have never praised Javed Hashmi, i would better call this accusations than revelations considering what he said about his leader Nawaz Sharif despite being a PTI president. Elections in september. How on earth this is possible?


It can't be never 100 percent corruption free.



It's pathetic you want to label me as a PMLNer to get your point across. I'm through with this lame discussion.

Comprehension problems indeed. I meant the civil service/bureaucracy that was doing its job damn well when I visited.

The Model Town incident should be condemned in the strongest language possible and all relevant personnel including chota ganja should be prosecuted for criminal negligence resulting in deaths of innocents. It has nothing to do with the point I was making of small-scale governmental offices actually doing their job for once.

Hashmi is making a claim - a different one from what is usually the stance of PTI and co. I am not advocating or claiming the truth of Hashmi's claim, but it is a startling claim in itself. I'd treat it as a revelation because if anything, it at least shows a disconnect in between Hashmi's thinking and PTI's thinking. A major cleavage, if I am to be honest.

Is your hair-splitting exercise over, or should I repeat myself again?
 
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I wish Parliamentary proceedings would receive as much air time as these dharnas did, all the time!

Would help in keeping everyone in line.
 
I'm shocked this thread despite being a month old has nearly a 100,000 views. Must be a record on Pakpassion.
 
A smart move by IK. Sending SMQ and all PTI MNA's to National Assembly tomorrow to give answers to all the parties there.

This is something I have been calling for since one and a half weeks now. We will have more fun tomorrow it seems:msd.
 
This is something I have been calling for since one and a half weeks now. We will have more fun tomorrow it seems:msd.

SMQ is a good speaker but i hope PTI think tank will do some good paper work tonight and give some good answers to everyone specially the so called champions of democracy like Maulana and Achakzai (and Ijaz ul Haq too who was shouting a few days ago in favor of democracy). I can listen a lecture on democracy happily if it comes from someone like Aitzaz Ahsan but i can't stop laughing because people like Maulana and Ijaz ul Haq are giving us lecture on Democracy. PTI don't have someone like Aitzaz Ahsan but at least they got a better team thn PML (N) so let's see!
 
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lol your making it sound as if suddenly everything has changed. That suddenly Imran is weak etc etc. Imran is exactly where he was when he started. Nothing has changed. Nobody was supporting him from the beginning and nobody (and I mean the current political parties) are supporting him now. They will have to clear the dharna area, There is no doubt about it. and then what? scenario 2. They have raised the stakes so much after todays disgraceful demonstration in parliament that they will have to attack.

Every1's talking as if hashmi was telling the truth. He has zero proof. Other than some innuendo. ISPR denied it all, else what do they care. they would have taken over if they wanted to. The fact is this will continue.

and everything has changed. Imran has once again given the people the opportunity to express themselves without fear.

Hashmi has only pointed to the big elephant in the room.
 
All the crooks n goons got united in Parliament People of Pakistan wake up! smell the coffee
 
IK need to listen to Aitzaz Ahsans speech and should learn the democratic way of talking. I hope we will see the drop scene of this dharna soon now, clearly first time in history of Pakistan military is pushed back thanks to PPP. I hope Gov dont screw this further and now start meaningful dialogue. I don't see anything positive coming from this march anytime soon but in long term it will help keep a lot of things in control. NS will understand the importance of opposition parties now and his ministers should keep them selves in control.

I think solution for me now these points should be accepted. I think just 1st one was not accepted by Gov.

1) Resignation of Punjab chief minister.

2) Audit of the government’s 14-month expenses

3) Bringing culprits of the alleged vote fraud in the 2013 general elections to book.


4) Electoral reforms prior to fresh elections.

5) Re-elections for all assemblies. (based on new results after audit of election)

6) Installation of impartial interim government before new elections. (whenever assembly decide the date of new election)

High time for PTI to shake hands with PPP on this and try to get these things done.
I am sure Nawaz would love to bring himself to justice
 
On the question of rigging, why couldn't ruling party do much and got its worst tally in decades.
 
ایک محفل، جس میں فیض صاحب بھی موجود تھے، باتیں ہو رہی تھیں کہ اس ملک کا مستقبل کیا ہو گا؟ کسی نے کہا انارکی ہو جائے گی۔ کسی کے خیال میں بڑے پیمانے پر خون خرابہ، اور کچھ کے خیال میں ملک مزید ٹوٹ بھی سکتا تھا۔ ایسے میں فیض صاحب کی رائے پوچھی گئی تو انہوں نے اپنے مخصوص انداز میں کہا کہ "بھئی ! میرے خیال میں اس سے بھی برا ہو گا"۔ سب نے حیران ہو کے پوچھا کہ وہ کیسے؟

فیض صاحب نے جواب دیا کہ "مجھے ڈر ہے کہ یہ ملک ایسے ہی چلتا رہے گا"۔
 
All very admirable, no doubt, but with a track record of one seat, once, he should have no say whatsoever in politics. Why is the government and the army taking him so seriously? Not just last month and in June, but prior to that too.

Parliamentarians have been dismissed for holding dual citizenship, there's controversy over Altaf's dual citizenship, but apparently Qadri's dual citizenship is no problem.

I'd rather have a moderate hypocrite Mullah than a TTP ideology Mullah calling shots for the religious voting population of pak . At lest you can negotiate and find a middle ground with someone like qadri . The TTP scum only knows how to blow up things if their demands aren't met .
 
Hashmi has only pointed to the big elephant in the room.

lol paranoid delusions. No proof whatsoever. Isnt this what the nooras ask of khan? where's your proof of rigging? where's your proof of this and that. Hashmi has zero proof because if he did he would have shown it to the world. That little paigaam was from Qadri not the COAS. And its perfectly logical. I'm sorry to say but Hashmi was never really invested in real change. good riddance.
 
On the question of rigging, why couldn't ruling party do much and got its worst tally in decades.

they won Sindh and lost out in Punjab and KP because of the PTI surge in some of their heartlands. Punjab wasn't in their hands so they couldn't rig it there and never have been able to. Punjab has always been sharifistan.
 
I'd rather have a moderate hypocrite Mullah than a TTP ideology Mullah calling shots for the religious voting population of pak . At lest you can negotiate and find a middle ground with someone like qadri . The TTP scum only knows how to blow up things if their demands aren't met .

Certainly. If the masses are going to follow a religious demagogue, better Qadri than anyone on the Deobandi spectrum. Qadri has had the Shia party tag along too.

But a foreign national with no electoral standing shouldn't be given the sort of attention he garners from the government, the military, the media, and if reports are to be believed, the British ambassador.
 
Superb speech by imran exposes :nawaz's criminologies and how the head of five families have united #parliament :corleone
 
While I am in favour of auditing of last election and electoral reforms, I cannot support violence or storming of public buildings such as Parliament/PM House in this way. IK's demands are justified but the method (dharna) is wrong. It was only a matter of time before the protesters turned violent. I always feared that PTI joining hands with PAT could lead to violence.

Apparently government agreed to 5 of PTI's 6 demands except NS's resignation and IK should have taken that and given the government a time frame for implementation of electoral reforms and auditing of last election...esp. after the army had assured him oversight of judicial commission.

I am not sure who is advising IK. When you have firebrand like Shireen Mazari in the party who likes to blame everything on some conspiracy, advising you it does not really help. Or is it IK's big ego that's not allowing him to make sane decisions I wonder!

Whatever one's grievances re. NS or the electoral malpractices, he should not resign otherwise it would set a wrong precedent of demanding resignations of elected PMs by blocking the capital. Tomorrow it could be JI and MMA, even terrorist TTP god forbid blocking the capital, demanding PM's resignation by asking for implementation of sharia!!

Equally the PML-N has been exposed. Army will always be the major power broker in the country because of the corrupt attitudes and incompetence of our politicians. The utter incompetence of PML-N Government in dealing with the current situation is there for everyone to see. Even Zardari had to face a few tricky situations but he handled them much better than NS....first asking COAS to mediate then openly lying in parliament (of all places) only to be rebutted by DG ISPR. What a joker of a PM we have?

I hope sanity prevails and all stake holders sit together and resolve the issue of election auditing and reforms through dialogue.
 
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This is one man telling his fellow Pakistanis that we do not have to live like slaves! Democracy is meant to serve us and not the other way around!

"Agar sab yahan se chalay bhi gaye, mein nahin jaoun ga." Imran Khan.

I Salute you sir! Jinnah gave us Pakistan and it seems you will give us our rights!
 
I thought it was a brilliant speech by IK ;He destroyed Aitzaz Ahsan for his nonsensical policy and made mince meat out of Maulana Diesel for his desperation for Power. He reminded everyone that if he wanted power he could have had it twice from military dictators but both times he refused. A great speech IK, you are in inspiration.
 
NS should only resign if judicial commission investigation confirms massive rigging in 2013
 
Can't believe the amount of Pakistanis who say

'yes Nawaz is a corrupt liar but he should still remain PM'

shows what a laughable state the Country is in when you have such ill-informed and uneducated understanding of the principles of democracy
 
I wish Parliamentary proceedings would receive as much air time as these dharnas did, all the time!

Would help in keeping everyone in line.

the ppl in parliament absolutely tore apart those poors, hungry, ppl suffering from injustice, lack of electricity, clean water etc . great speeches !

where were these fazlur rehman, aitzaz, achcakzai, khursheed shah etc. when the model town massacre happened or rigging took place? you live in some fantasy world if you think they spoke for democracy & the awaam. they only spoke for their seats & jobs & their survival.

let this democratic process cont. so that they cont. to loot the awaam. all this highly intellectual garbage makes sense if you´re some rich kid sitting abroad preaching others about democracy.

IK doesnt oppose democracy, but the current set up. sharif & nisar told a lie about army chief being called in by IK & TuQ demand. denied by army ! did any bootlicker of sharif raise this issue in parliament today ? shame. big shame. big big shame. the PM lies & gets away with it for the sake of democracy.

ppl cont. to spout nonsense about democracy this, democracy that. your this current set up of democracy has been in place since 2008, now tell me what has it given to the awaam ? WHAT HAS PAK GAINED FROM 2008 to this day ?

a girl committed suicide on sunday because her offender wasnt punished. which hukmaraan spoke in her favor ? which politician raised voice for her ? Only IK mentioned it in his dharna speech. but of course why should it matter to anyone as long as rich kids cont. to get their luxuries. ppl leading luxurious lives will of course cont. to preach about democracy.
 
For those who missed Imran Khan speech some transcripted parts :

http://www.samaa.tv/notes/02-Sep-2014/live-updates-azadi-and-inqilab-hell-breaks-loose-ii

9.05pm: If you give up and go home, your generations will be slave to such rulers. Nawaz Sharif! Even if everyone leaves, I will stay here. - Imran Khan

8.55pm: Leaders should declare their assets first. A nation can only progress when there is accountability in the system.

These leaders are hoping that you (protesters) will get tired and go home. They don't want you to succeed because if you succeed at least 100 ministers will have to go back home. - Imran Khan

8.41pm: I have never respected any politician as much as I respected Javed Hashmi because I believed he must have a vision. But I am very hurt at what you (Hashmi) said. 13 months ago, you sat on my right when I said that we will try every legal channel to get them to investigate rigging in at least 4 constituencies and if they don't hold investigations then next summer, which is now, we will come out on streets. At that time COAS was Gen Kiyani and CJ was Ch Iftikhar and they have both retired now. Hashmi sb, you know that I never follow anyone's directions. If I had been hungry for power I would have become prime minister when Musharraf was in power. PTI is the only party that has grown without the support of army. I was offered ministries in the regime of Zia-ul-Haq and in 1993 as well. I supported Musharraf in the refrendum because he had promised me that he will eliminate corruption from Pakistan. So I'm very hurt by your accusations Hashmi sb. You should've known better. - Imran Khan



8.34pm: I want to ask Aitzaz Ahsan, if it was ok when I joined you in long march for Iftikhar Chaudhry's release, why is this protest wrong now? And if you know that election was rigged, you should've joined us here.

Field Marshall Ch Nisar declared us terrorists and an army. You shoot 45 protesters and then you file a terrorism case against me? This is exactly what Israel does with Gaza but Israel doesn't torture its own people. Demonstrations are held there too but none of the Israelis are hurt by their own state. I rememeber the era of Zia-ul-Haq and Musharraf, even they didn't use such violence in their time. - Imran Khan

8.28pm: One of the most strongest ministers in Britain resigned because he was accused of insulting a police officer. He came back when he was proven innocent. That is how democracies work. Nawaz Sharif needs to step down till the investigation continues.

Maulana sb gave long speeches in favor of democracy. His party is religious but he forms an alliance with secular parties when it suits him. I find it an insult to respond to his allegations.

Aitzaz Ahsan clearly said today that he knows election was rigged but Aitzaz sb why didn't you speak further? Why didn't you say that Nawaz Sharif must step down so investigation can be fair. Because they are saving each other's backs. He has a deal with Nawaz Sharif. - Imran Khan

8.24pm: PML-N's performance in Punjab during PPP's regime was pathetic. Nurses, teachers, students, doctors, people of all professions came out to protest. Loadshedding was at its peak, there was no gas, no water in Punjab. And even then they got double the amount of votes than last time. How is that possible? - Imran Khan

8.19pm: My next question is, why are all those votes unverified? Because PML-N itself was involved in rigging. They printed ballot paper two days before elections and cast bogus votes. That's how they got double votes this time. - Imran Khan

8.12pm: There is no democracy here, this nation is being controlled by a mafia.

Maulana sb gave long lectures on democracy, he is very concerned about the system. Mehmood Achakzai gained the most from rigging. He has a seat in the NA and his brother has been appointed as Governor of Balochistan. The speeches were too painful I couldn't listen to all of them.

Every party has agreed that election was rigged. Even the interior minister, Ch field marshall Nisar said that 60,000-70,000 votes cannot be verified. If so many votes cannot be verified how will I know how I lost or won from a constituency? - Imran Khan
 
i agree with s28, savak and saeed. the country deserves what its getting.

its astonishing the level of critique on imran when huge scale rape and pillage of the country by the sharif and bhutto clan are hardly mentioned. it makes no sense at all. hashemi, the ttp, his personal past, his language - these are all debatable issues, and they are minuscule in comparison to the amounts those two families have taken from the country with the masses of embezzlement and corruption that we've seen in the past couple of decades.

its getting closer to the time us ex pats pull our support and see how well the 'mandate of the people' fares with the inflation, lawlessness and retaliatory terrorism that is undoubtedly gathering on the horizon.
 
Just saw the video clip of Ch Nisar speech again in NA on a News Channel now and noticed Mian Sahab was telling Nisar to mention Geo News name and voice was quite clear when Ch Nisar was ending his speech. Sad to see a PM doing childish things like this for his own benefit for a channel.
 
let this democratic process cont. so that they cont. to loot the awaam. all this highly intellectual garbage makes sense if you´re some rich kid sitting abroad preaching others about democracy.

Ironic because most of this forum is made up of rich kids sitting abroad who support PTI.
 
its getting closer to the time us ex pats pull our support and see how well the 'mandate of the people' fares with the inflation, lawlessness and retaliatory terrorism that is undoubtedly gathering on the horizon.

Please do. We, the denizens of Pakistan, can survive without your ahsaans
 
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