PTI's Tsunami March on 14th August [Mega Thread]

[Kianig89]

requesting for blankets n water sets

 

[shakil]

When Imran returns from the Dharna, he will, hopefully, learn the most important lesson of his political career that sometimes you have to turn back, accepted defeat and make compromises.

 

[wasim-fan]

When Imran returns from the Dharna, he will, hopefully, learn the most important lesson of his political career that sometimes you have to turn back, accepted defeat and make compromises.

Most important lesson. Change his political advisors. Or if he has none, then get better advisors. I think this whole facade has been major dent for the great Khan. Severe doubts on calibre of people he has to handle complex situations.

 

[UsmanhailsAfridi]

Most important lesson. Change his political advisors. Or if he has none, then get better advisors. I think this whole facade has been major dent for the great Khan. Severe doubts on calibre of people he has to handle complex situations.

for shortsighted folks like yourself it is a major dent...

what he has done in the past 3 weeks, no one has been able to accomplish for 40 years. In sha Allah it will be for the better in the long run.

 

[wasim-fan]

for shortsighted folks like yourself it is a major dent...

what he has done in the past 3 weeks, no one has been able to accomplish for 40 years. In sha Allah it will be for the better in the long run.

So what did he accomplish ? Please give far sighted for people like us.

 

[Nostalgic]

I think it's been fascinating to watch the players who flit between the periphery of the action and the thick of it. There are so many sideshows and subplots.

For instance, how does Sheikh Rashid manage to weasel his way into everything? Just today he was standing next to TUQ during the latter's address. If I were in Imran's or TUQ's shoes I would stay far away from him. But they don't, which makes one wonder why.

And Chori Shujaat. Can't even walk without help. From 2000 to 2007, was the main politico in the country. Even had a stint as PM in the Jamali-Aziz interregnum. But here he was, because of his longstanding rift with Nawaz.

And I wonder if Hashmi's departure has at least a little bit to do with Qureshi upstaging him again. Their electoral rivalry goes back twenty years or so.

I'm a big fan of Qureshi's elegance and eloquence. But he is itching for power. He has twice been in the reckoning for PM. He has been FM. If this gig doesn't work out soon, will he leave?

But Siraj ul Haq takes the cake. People have short memories, and they'll soon forget Munawwar Hasan's offensive persona and outrageous words. The new JI chieftain is playing his role to perfection, painting himself as the voice of reason and winning brownie points for his outfit. He's a dangerous man.

 

[WebGuru]

So the whole Drama and script writers and characters behind launching Javed Hashmi are exposing now slowly slowly...

 

[WebGuru]

Sad to to see if these rumors are true Hashmi will lose all the respect he earned in Pakistani politics. 40+ years in politics on stake. People will lose trust in Pakistani Politicians if there is any left.

 

[Mamoon]

I think it's been fascinating to watch the players who flit between the periphery of the action and the thick of it. There are so many sideshows and subplots.

For instance, how does Sheikh Rashid manage to weasel his way into everything? Just today he was standing next to TUQ during the latter's address. If I were in Imran's or TUQ's shoes I would stay far away from him. But they don't, which makes one wonder why.

And Chori Shujaat. Can't even walk without help. From 2000 to 2007, was the main politico in the country. Even had a stint as PM in the Jamali-Aziz interregnum. But here he was, because of his longstanding rift with Nawaz.

And I wonder if Hashmi's departure has at least a little bit to do with Qureshi upstaging him again. Their electoral rivalry goes back twenty years or so.

I'm a big fan of Qureshi's elegance and eloquence. But he is itching for power. He has twice been in the reckoning for PM. He has been FM. If this gig doesn't work out soon, will he leave?

But Siraj ul Haq takes the cake. People have short memories, and they'll soon forget Munawwar Hasan's offensive persona and outrageous words. The new JI chieftain is playing his role to perfection, painting himself as the voice of reason and winning brownie points for his outfit. He's a dangerous man.

He is the oldest player in the game, having him on your side has obvious merits but yes, a man of principles like Imran Khan shouldn't have sided with him because he represents everything that Imran despises and stands against.

One of the obvious flaws and double standards of his political regime. Yes he has purified such people with his magical wand, but surely it doesn't paint a good picture because these people clearly don't represent tabdeeli.

 

[godzilla]

No offence, but I have discussed this to death. You are welcome to read my posts in this thread for your answer, or read the 'death of democracy' thread where Indiafan has explained this point in great detail.

no offence taken. but im not going to trawl through all these pages.

i cant see any possible reasoning myself at all. i asked indiafan a question about the inviolability of the democratic process when it came to assad of syria and mubarak of egypt, to which he seemed to suggest they weren't appropriate examples - a ridiculous convenience. there are plentiful examples of failed democracies, mock democracies, oppressive democracies, unjust democracies, despotic democracies and even many of the presently functioning ones are not without severe criticism.

the democratic system in pakistan as it stands is rotten.

theres any number of statistics to show how poor the international standing of pakistan is, which evidences very thoroughly the fact that the system is rotten. theres any number of reports of massive widespread abuses of power and embezzlement too, and of cases of corruption levied against leaders who have been sent to jail as a result. the perspective that it is a perfectly good system that has not been allowed to flourish is unproven too - it could just as well be argued that the reason there have been so many coups is precisely because the system allows for massive corruption which necessitates intervention.

there simply isnt any proof for a stance that democracy in pakistan in its current guise is an inviolable holy grail. theres plenty of evidence for the opposite.

the obvious response to this is if not 'this democracy' then what? i would argue that it is extreme myopia if not outright 'undercooked' thinking that would place democracy, let alone pakistani democracy as it stands, as the only system that is fair. note, the consensus measure of an optimal system of governance in this context, is about it being fair. that principle of fairness then supersedes anything else, including the mode of governance. it is far fairer to have a just and benevolent autocrat/demagogue/dictator than to have a corrupt elected ruler - by definition. if not this democracy, than something fair, just and uncorrupt - thats by far and away the utmost priority. this doesnt mean that democracy is wrong, it means that its not always right, particularly in any manifestation.

and that is the crux of my answer to the two questions. whatever ik's sins - and they are all debatable as to whether they are in fact sins - they are tiny in terms of importance in comparison to the sins of any feasible alternative in the shape of the pmln and ppp on account of zardari and sharif. it beggars belief that the focus should be on pakistan's paper cut, which is imran (using language deemed offensive, or stepping onto some controversial ground, or calling for a protest of civil disobedience) rather than focussing on the heart attack, amputation, stroke and haemorrhaging that is the corruption of zardari and sharif.

thats why people who read these critiques of imran are flabbergasted. they are pinned on abstract notions of democratic ideals, into which the current grotesque version is believed will magically mutate, and it does an immense disservice to the real issues that are holding back pakistan in the dark ages. if you'll forgive this disgusting but i think precise analogy, its an astonishing focus on the broken finger nail of a woman being gang raped.

with regards to democracy around the world, it doesnt take much investigation to understand that the developed democracies in the west stretch back several hundred years, in general, and its no coincidence that they were born in a time when there were roughly four or five global empires that raped and pillaged the rest of the world. the implication being that wealthiness and a well oiled democratic machine are not coincident. everything runs on money. in the absence of principle, money is the always the deciding factor. its also no coincidence that the most well functioning democracies in the world are switzerland and the scandinavian block - both areas that are very wealthy and have very well educated populations.

just look at the facts. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/10535508/Pakistan-politician-pays-10-in-taxes.html

pakistan has one of the lowest collection rates of taxes in the world. they raise 9% of gdp in taxes versus 36% for the uk - how on earth are you going to have a system change when it allows so many of its principle beneficiaries with a history of corruption and embezzlement to benefit so brazenly from it?

to that extent, just look at what has happened in pakistan. a quick google of zardari or sharif and corruption will result in a litany of issues. these numbers are immense. anything from several hundreds of millions to billions. but its not as simple as to count the cost to the country by adding up their ill gotten gains, mansions, and swiss bank accounts - there are plentiful stories of how much the country has had to suffer. zardari tried to sell minerals to i think an australian consortium for a figure of about $7mm from my sources, on assets worth close to $100mm. on that one deal alone, if the accusations are correct, thats a loss of close to $100mm to the country. benazir forced wapda to buy a tanker of polluted oil pulled from th gulf after u think the first gulf war when the iranians set fire to the gulf. it went around the world with no buyers. benazir received a $5mm kickback for forcing wapda to buy it, and they suffered $400mm worth of destruction to plant and materials as a result of forcing through sub standard fuel. thats a cost to the people. the hundreds of millions in defaulted loans that that the sharifs have embezzled are well documented even in bbc documentaries already posted on pp. thats a cost to the people.

the point is that for a country that has a stunted economy that exports about $30bn worth of goods, a hit of what amounts to something close to billions a year is devastating. its taking education away from children, food away from the poor and welfare and medical assistance away from the destitute. as a sixth most populous nation on the planet, pakistan has the human resources to be competing on the world stage. instead we compete for the lowest of all measures, in terms of foreign indebtedness, safety, corruption and so on.

just to look at those numbers in a different way, a third of the pakistani population survives on less than 50c a day. if the number that is embezzled is just a billion a year, and its likely to be multiples of that, and if that billion was to be spent on that third of the population, thats somewhere close to 10% more for these incredibly poor, destitute people, 60 million of them.

thats why by far and away the most important thing for pakistan is to be rid of corruption, and why there can be no rational choice other than imran, irrespective of these small misdemeanours he's accused of. the only rationale i can find for an opposing view is if it comes from someone benefitting directly from zardari and/or sharif, or from someone who is unaware of the scale and severity of those two leader's crimes.

given how long this circus of the current system has been going on for, and given how many skeletons are hiding in the cupboards in the national assembly, no wonder they are united in an opposition of imran. it doesnt take much thought to comprehend what it would mean for these people if a party like the pti were to come into power and they were to be held accountable.

its another fallacy that the pti supporters in general are under the spell of some kind of messiah complex, but IF we were to agree that corruption was the biggest issue killing people, starving them and obliterating happiness and prosperity for the 180mm people - who else is there to put stock in than a man who is pristine in terms of his corruption - cleanliness and a man who has stood for principle and people building world class hospitals, turning down offers of power, and sacrificing his own family?

if we are talking about crimes that are so huge in the scheme of things, that they hold back a hundred plus million people for the benefit of a few, its completely understandable that those criticising the men wanting justice are looked at with disbelief.

 

[Mamoon]

Everyone thinks that Imran Khan has a magic wand. As soon as he becomes PM ( if he does), everything would be great - people would have jobs, there will be no corruption and there would be peace in this country. I think they need to wake up and it's about time they stop dreaming.

This nation will continue to live and die while dreaming about a messiah who will emerge from within and overpower all evil. Unfortunately, that messiah will never come.

 

[UsmanhailsAfridi]

Everyone thinks that Imran Khan has a magic wand. As soon as he becomes PM ( if he does), everything would be great - people would have jobs, there will be no corruption and there would be peace in this country. I think they need to wake up and it's about time they stop dreaming.

This nation will continue to live and die while dreaming about a messiah who will emerge from within and overpower all evil. Unfortunately, that messiah will never come.

Lame. No things won't change overnight but he could def push changes down to the grass root levels over the course of the next few years as his focus won't be on filling his pockets. Change takes time but just because it takes time it doesnt mean you should just leave everything the way it is.

 

[Mamoon]

Nothing will change as long as the people don't. Putting faith in one man is not the answer.

The biggest problem Pakistan has is that all the top level educated professional move out of Pakistan for a more secure future, only leaving mediocre dross behind.

The day the best doctors, accountants, managers, engineers, lawyers etc start working and contributing in our society and country, this nation will have a bright future.

 

[blinding light]

Save face from what? that he stood up alone for our rights? He exposed to us the ugly face of those in Parliament - how they unite to save each other when they know their corrupt practices are at risk and they might no longer be able to suck the blood of Pakistanis?

Exposed how the PM disappears when true opposition leader SMQ makes a speech, only to reappear when after he has left?

If you can accept the likes of Benazir Zardari and Nawaz Sharif who have raped this country to no ends, then I think Imran Khan is a winner for standing for our rights and exposing the cancer within Pakistan, which is clearly PPP PMLN and Co. and their supporters

Unlike the people you support blinding light, IK is not your average politician. He isn't looking for face saving here or we would've accepted the revised points without Nawaz sharrifs resignation. He is standing for a principal and will stand for it no matter what. Standing for what's right is more important to people like us than winning.

what a terrible statement...you clearly don't understand anything about Imran Khan. If anything he knows how to lose and still find a way to get upto continue the fight. But to even think that how "he will save his face" when on the other side there is a long long list of idiots and crooks who have robbed the country in broad daylight, you are making quite a mockery of someone who is standing up for the basic rights of the people all the while you stand under the "I know it all about democracy so have moral high ground" umbrella.

Tsk tsk. Amateurs.

IK the hero you all worship is seemingly infallible, I know. But IK the politician in this world of realpolitik has lost, big time.

Look at the size of the dharnas now.

Look at everyone in the Parliament screaming their heads off.

Look at the cleavages within PTI (IK claiming Parliament is holding the nation hostage, whilst SMQ claims they are here to save the Parliament. The esteemed Parliament. Lying again at the floor of Parliament, or downright hypocrisy? I'd like all PTIers to answer this.)

Look at IK himself - from swaying to taranas to his ashen faced speeches now.

To be very honest, I really should stop posting in this thread. None of the politicians of the current set-up are worth being labelled over. But my support for Pakistan extends all. It's a concept some people clearly don't understand here. No matter.

 

[lilFlip]

Nothing will change as long as the people don't. Putting faith in one man is not the answer.

The biggest problem Pakistan has is that all the top level educated professional move out of Pakistan for a more secure future, only leaving mediocre dross behind.

The day the best doctors, accountants, managers, engineers, lawyers etc start working and contributing in our society and country, this nation will have a bright future.

So you suggest Pakistanis should continue with misery and blatant corruption?

Bro Pakistanis outside Pakistan still bleed green and they WILL come back to Pakistan overnight IF situation is improved. (I know for a fact my parents would!)

Pakistan's no. 1 problem is corruption and then 'terrorism' and I believe Imran Khan is the only politician who genuinely wants to improve Pakistan

Allahu Akbar and Insha'Allah truth shall prevail. Hate it or Love it.

 

[Bewal Express]

Nothing will change as long as the people don't. Putting faith in one man is not the answer.

The biggest problem Pakistan has is that all the top level educated professional move out of Pakistan for a more secure future, only leaving mediocre dross behind.

The day the best doctors, accountants, managers, engineers, lawyers etc start working and contributing in our society and country, this nation will have a bright future.

One of the more sensible things you have said but I would add that if the man at the top is honest then people will believe that being honest is not a waste and they are part of creating a better society and it's worth sacrificing for the greater good. Just look at the contributions made to his hospital or to Edhi. As long as NS and the PPP are around no body will or wants to sacrifice.

 

[UsmanhailsAfridi]

Nothing will change as long as the people don't. Putting faith in one man is not the answer.

The biggest problem Pakistan has is that all the top level educated professional move out of Pakistan for a more secure future, only leaving mediocre dross behind.

The day the best doctors, accountants, managers, engineers, lawyers etc start working and contributing in our society and country, this nation will have a bright future.

but people are changing and that is where the victory is quite clear in what IK has done...the middle class living in bunglows is coming out on the streets. That's a change, those people would never leave their homes for a social cause. One man can't change the world, but he can surely lead. You will be surprised what proper check and balances can do to a society. People in the west didn't wake up one day and decided they will stop at a red light at 2am in the morning with no body around. A system of check and balances is in place and trickles down from the top...otherwise no one wants to sit a traffic light at 2am but its the watchdog over his head that is the biggest repellent.

 

[Badsha]

Tsk tsk. Amateurs.

IK the hero you all worship is seemingly infallible, I know. But IK the politician in this world of realpolitik has lost, big time.

Look at the size of the dharnas now.

Look at everyone in the Parliament screaming their heads off.

Look at the cleavages within PTI (IK claiming Parliament is holding the nation hostage, whilst SMQ claims they are here to save the Parliament. The esteemed Parliament. Lying again at the floor of Parliament, or downright hypocrisy? I'd like all PTIers to answer this.)

Look at IK himself - from swaying to taranas to his ashen faced speeches now.

To be very honest, I really should stop posting in this thread. None of the politicians of the current set-up are worth being labelled over. But my support for Pakistan extends all. It's a concept some people clearly don't understand here. No matter.

Calling us amateurs. Every expert is wrong but you are right. Imran Khan the politician is respected throughout the world by well known leaders unlike the other lot.

Anyway, I'll let you play "political analyst" here by taking the side of the evil and justifying it.

 

[UsmanhailsAfridi]

Tsk tsk. Amateurs.

IK the hero you all worship is seemingly infallible, I know. But IK the politician in this world of realpolitik has lost, big time.

Look at the size of the dharnas now.

Look at everyone in the Parliament screaming their heads off.

Look at the cleavages within PTI (IK claiming Parliament is holding the nation hostage, whilst SMQ claims they are here to save the Parliament. The esteemed Parliament. Lying again at the floor of Parliament, or downright hypocrisy? I'd like all PTIers to answer this.)

Look at IK himself - from swaying to taranas to his ashen faced speeches now.

To be very honest, I really should stop posting in this thread. None of the politicians of the current set-up are worth being labelled over. But my support for Pakistan extends all. It's a concept some people clearly don't understand here. No matter.

you are impressed by the Parliament screaming their heads off? Really? Thats what IK should be worried about? What do you think he expected the Parliament to do? They are just saving their seats so they can loot the country.

The Parliament is its current setup is holding the nation and to kick them out and establish proper democracy is to save the Parliament.

But sure please take your pessimism somewhere else, while you wait for whatever you are waiting that you think will change the country.

 

[UsmanhailsAfridi]

Calling us amateurs. Every expert is wrong but you are right. Imran Khan the politician is respected throughout the world by well known leaders unlike the other lot.

Anyway, I'll let you play "political analyst" here by taking the side of the evil and justifying it.

We have a democratic specialist here who thinking looting the country and treating the public likes slaves is upholding democracy, a visit or 2 to real democracies might be helpful.

 

[Badsha]

We have a democratic specialist here who thinking looting the country and treating the public likes slaves is upholding democracy, a visit or 2 to real democracies might be helpful.

Come on let them play analyst! We're all just sheep

 

[kingusama92]

Nothing will change as long as the people don't. Putting faith in one man is not the answer.

The biggest problem Pakistan has is that all the top level educated professional move out of Pakistan for a more secure future, only leaving mediocre dross behind.

The day the best doctors, accountants, managers, engineers, lawyers etc start working and contributing in our society and country, this nation will have a bright future.

Agreed, but you need someone to lead by example.

If the guy at the top is honest and fair, it will have a trickle down effect.

It's the same thing you see with corruption. Everyone just ends up saying, "Well, he's doing it too so why not me?" and that's their justification. They won't have that option any more when the guy at the top is honest.

 

[Azzurri]

Everyone thinks that Imran Khan has a magic wand. As soon as he becomes PM ( if he does), everything would be great - people would have jobs, there will be no corruption and there would be peace in this country. I think they need to wake up and it's about time they stop dreaming.

This nation will continue to live and die while dreaming about a messiah who will emerge from within and overpower all evil. Unfortunately, that messiah will never come.

Mamoon bhai ap k andazay hamesha galt he hotay hain .. Ap ki mukhalfat achi khabar hai PTI walon k liye

 

[s28]

To be very honest, I really should stop posting in this thread.

Finally something we can all agree on.

 

[Azlan Khan]

Muhammad Shoaib Baig, Chief HR Officer and Vice President of Telenor Pakistan has decided to join PTI after being inspired by the Azadi March movement for Naya Pakistan!

 

[waqar goraya]

Number of protesters increasing again after couple of peaceful days.

 

[PetroDollars]

i reckon the dharna would gain momentum this week otherwise it will faze out.

 

[Laparwah]

No matter how much the government wants the army will never attack it's own people and the police seem to have lost heart in doing so as well so the stand off continues. TuQ is telling protester's to convert parliament grounds to whatever they want, he's in it for the long run. Nawaz doesn't know what to do now with his government suspended. He may be acting all cool but inside is in a very bad spot now. IK and TuQ stand firm and won't be going anywhere.

 

[blinding light]

[MENTION=74419]Badsha[/MENTION] [MENTION=218]UsmanhailsAfridi[/MENTION] - a correction. Don't call me an analyst, I'm not that qualified, and my personal area of interest is international security anyway, so yeah.

We can never agree on anything because of a very basic thing - our paradigms and perceptions.

You all hail IK and PTI (actually, IK more than PTI) as a godsend, a messiah, a saviour who will right all wrongs and make a "Naya Pakistan". I, on the other hand, while do not doubt IK's personal love for Pakistan and his non-corrupt past, view IK as just another politician who is willing to get in bed with scums like MQM, Sheikh Rasheed and TUQ to undermine his opponents.

As of current, I stand for system, while he stands for anarchy - complete and utter derailment of any and all state institutions that dont uphold his personal opinion/POV. Coupled by a false sense of panic, of course.

Although I have tried my best to maintain debate without getting personal, I have been forced to justify my personal position a million times because , apparently, the new foundations of the so-called 'democratic' Naya Pakistan does not take favourably to dissenting opinions and freedom of speech, as lovingly exhibited by [MENTION=107620]s28[/MENTION].

To conclude, my point is simple. To each his own. You are well within your rights to say whatever the hell you want, but please don't forget that so am I. You don't need to make larger than life claims about my true loyalties just because you find yourselves in a debate with someone who doesnt love IK's rhetorical vomit as much as you do.

 

[godzilla]

it such an amateur lame argument to point at dwindling numbers of the dharnas. if it were just that number, why would sharif have any hesitation in shutting them down? its because the numbers are far greater throughout the country. the numbers at the dharnas arent the issue at all.

 

[Badsha]

[MENTION=74419]Badsha[/MENTION] [MENTION=218]UsmanhailsAfridi[/MENTION] - a correction. Don't call me an analyst, I'm not that qualified, and my personal area of interest is international security anyway, so yeah.

We can never agree on anything because of a very basic thing - our paradigms and perceptions.

You all hail IK and PTI (actually, IK more than PTI) as a godsend, a messiah, a saviour who will right all wrongs and make a "Naya Pakistan". I, on the other hand, while do not doubt IK's personal love for Pakistan and his non-corrupt past, view IK as just another politician who is willing to get in bed with scums like MQM, Sheikh Rasheed and TUQ to undermine his opponents.

As of current, I stand for system, while he stands for anarchy - complete and utter derailment of any and all state institutions that dont uphold his personal opinion/POV. Coupled by a false sense of panic, of course.

Although I have tried my best to maintain debate without getting personal, I have been forced to justify my personal position a million times because , apparently, the new foundations of the so-called 'democratic' Naya Pakistan does not take favourably to dissenting opinions and freedom of speech, as lovingly exhibited by [MENTION=107620]s28[/MENTION].

To conclude, my point is simple. To each his own. You are well within your rights to say whatever the hell you want, but please don't forget that so am I. You don't need to make larger than life claims about my true loyalties just because you find yourselves in a debate with someone who doesnt love IK's rhetorical vomit as much as you do.

We do stand for different things. We may even have different values. For me; honesty, integrity, justice and equality all come before a crooked "system" and I'll always fight for that.

But I don't look at this as you just having a "different opinion". Anyone who supports Nawaz Sharif (and I'm not talking about you) is supporting a liar and a crook. Supporting a liar is not just a matter of opinion. It's plain wrong in my eyes.

 

[waqar goraya]

An article from Moeed Pirzada

Storming Ptv; Barbarians at the Gates: Entering PTV was Wrong: But the situation we are dealing with is now full of all "wrongs". Marching to the Prime Minister House is also wrong, sitting endlessly on Const. Ave and holding Capital City to standstill is also wrong, forty thousand police & rangers terrorizing city and hospitals is also wrong and hundreds of Police Officers refusing to obey govt. commands is also wrong. But all these "wrongs" have now to be measured against other "wrongs" Question of "right" & "wrong" is fast disappearing. This is the definition of Chaos.

Why we have reached this stage of "chaos"? because many of us inside ruling PMLN, in political parties, so called Opposition, in bureaucracy, in judiciary and in media whose job was to take positions honestly and with sincerity to mediate conflict between warring sides didn't. They failed us. And they failed us either because they didn't understand the gathering storm or were insensitive and worse: in many cases they were bought as 'voices' to say what they were saying against common sense and collective interest.
Protestors shouldn't have entered PTV. Dr. Qadri and Imran should categorically tell their supporters not to enter any building and I have heard Qadri doing that; he should also apologize for the brief period of vandalism his supporters may have done in Ptv Cafetaria. But this 'event' however distasteful it may look is only part of a bigger picture and without resolving that conflict these events can get worse.
I have read the comments on Twitter; the sense of shock, disgust awe and fear on protestors entering Ptv and endless conspiracy theories and spin. One is tempted to believe them, as good citizens but unfortunately I remember how many of these same people were defending the murders, killings and brutality on 17th June in Model Town. While "Political thugs & Mafia" used Police to terrorize their political opponents these same "decent people" on Twitter were justifying those acts of terrorism by spinning and at times by openly lying. For instance they kept claiming: Police reacted only because it was fired upon; why Qadri people are fighting police; why there are barricades; several policemen have died; huge caches of arms and explosives have been recovered that were to be used for terrorism across Punjab; people in Model Town wanted Police to do the clearing operation etc. Those who have read the JIT Report know that all of that was spin and lies. But it was obvious even then.

But why Model Town massacre is important now? Because that massacre, they way it was done, and the way endless attempts have been done, using levers inside executive, judiciary and the media to cover it up to stop facts from emerging has practically finished the moral authority of PMLN govt and the political system stitched around it. From a government of all people that rules with trust, they & their allies have reduced themselves to a "political group" wearing the mask of a government. Now they threaten to browbeat their "real opposition" by endless references to Constitution, law, 11 parties inside Parliament and the responsibilities of the Armed Forces. But the dynamics of "real politick" cannot be fudged by "fake matras" - What they want is that Armed Forces should use their 'moral authority' and 'fire power' to restore their 'controlling position' on the system so that they can fix up their 'real opposition'. Its only common sense to ask: Why should they?

Look at the insane propaganda being repeated adnauseum by "political & economic interest mafia wearing the mask of a govt" that there are just few thousand people sitting in Islamabad and how could we accept mob demands. Two days ago, the "political & economic interests" that call themselves "govt" tried throwing them out by finding an excuse; dozens died, hundreds were injured including policemen and yet crowds have not only stayed but have multiplied. Why? because apart from "spin & lying" there is another phenomenon that has escaped these 'apologists'. This is an age of TV and internet and countless millions across a large country stand behind these 'protestors'; they are not on roads now, but an extremely charged polarized feeling is there. If situation in Islamabad is not diffused politically, if PMLN & allies continue to deal with this as a mob, as a sect, as miscreants to be dealt as an administrative matter or even manage to kill a few hundred and throw them out this violence will spread across the country, if not in three days then in three weeks.

Armed Forces cannot and should not try to erode their moral authority to restore 'physical authority' of a regime that is tottering and is unable to restore its moral authority through a political process of bargaining. Supreme Court already sullied and bruised should also tread carefully; whatever authority it has ultimately depends upon "force projection" and Obama however it may love Nawaz is not going to ask Pentagon to restore order across Pakistan. And Modi is not interested either. To find the political solution PMLN & allies needed to give a serious "pound of flesh" a meaningful political concession, as Altaf Hussain had been hinting in his poetic harangues. 3-4 days ago, before the killings in Islamabad, this could have been "resignation of CM Punjab" plus some credible guarantees by Armed Forces for an Election Audit - saving PM Nawaz in lieu. PMLN lost this opportunity because they are continuously thinking of petty smart moves like creating a "Judicial Commission" here and there. But where is the trust after Judicial Commission on Model Town?

This political crisis will not go away by petty smart moves; Cinderella and the handsome prince can't live happily ever after; there are no kind witches around to create a horse carriage out of pumpkins and rats; this is a 'real politick' situation and needs a larger political vision for future ahead...we will find out in next 48 hours...more later

 

[blinding light]

We do stand for different things. We may even have different values. For me; honesty, integrity, justice and equality all come before a crooked "system" and I'll always fight for that.

But I don't look at this as you just having a "different opinion". Anyone who supports Nawaz Sharif (and I'm not talking about you) is supporting a liar and a crook. Supporting a liar is not just a matter of opinion. It's plain wrong in my eyes.

You're exactly reinforcing my point. Why is this all a Nawaz vs Imran affair? If IK, your hero whom you blindly follow as you've admitted yourself, if he is so utterly pure and honest, why is he standing with Sheikh Rasheed? Why does he not continue his initial but morally correct about MQM and Altaf Hussain? Why does he think its alright to drone on and on about patwaris when 2 major waderas are his party's president and vice president? Why is he shrouding a radical anarchist like TUQ with his own legitimacy? If he's so honest, why is he allowing SMQ to speak in favour of the Parliament whilst standing in the Parliament but prefers to badmouth he Parliament and declare it illegitimate when he's outside it? Is he not lying when his own legal representatives apologise on his behalf in the Supreme Court for bashing the CJ/judiciary whilst simultaneously, he continues to personally lambast them in his jalsas? Does it not marr an honest man's integrity to stand beside the likes of Sheikh Rasheed, worse than that, give them thr post of special advisor?

^ The same set of questions, if not worse, are applicable on any and every politician across the board. THAT is why I prefer a system over this personalised version of politics. A nameless, faceless system which is unaffected by people, their personal ambitions, the dead. Parliamentary supremacy, judicial independence, protection and maintenance of atate institutions. Democracy. PAKISTAN.

Politics, always remember, is rarely a black or white affair. And at least in this day and age, it cant be black and white. Majority attempts to make it a zero sum affair will result in losses for thr politicians and possibly, the awaam.

Who is honest, who is a liar and everything in between - are all constructions of the mind in politics. That is why it's a dirty, selfish game. Trying to paint me as someone who supports a liar may help our ego to purr with content over scoring moral points. But relativity defines politics. There is no black or white in realpolitik.

 

[mnoman15]

You're exactly reinforcing my point. Why is this all a Nawaz vs Imran affair? If IK, your hero whom you blindly follow as you've admitted yourself, if he is so utterly pure and honest, why is he standing with Sheikh Rasheed? Why does he not continue his initial but morally correct about MQM and Altaf Hussain? Why does he think its alright to drone on and on about patwaris when 2 major waderas are his party's president and vice president? Why is he shrouding a radical anarchist like TUQ with his own legitimacy? If he's so honest, why is he allowing SMQ to speak in favour of the Parliament whilst standing in the Parliament but prefers to badmouth he Parliament and declare it illegitimate when he's outside it? Is he not lying when his own legal representatives apologise on his behalf in the Supreme Court for bashing the CJ/judiciary whilst simultaneously, he continues to personally lambast them in his jalsas? Does it not marr an honest man's integrity to stand beside the likes of Sheikh Rasheed, worse than that, give them thr post of special advisor?

^ The same set of questions, if not worse, are applicable on any and every politician across the board. THAT is why I prefer a system over this personalised version of politics.

Politics, always remember, is rarely a black or white affair. And at least in this day and age, it cant be black and white. Majority attempts to make it a zero sum affair will result in losses for thr politicians and possibly, the awaam.

Who is honest, who is a liar and everything in between - are all constructions of the mind in politics. That is why it's a dirty, selfish game. Trying to paint me as someone who supports a liar may help our ego to purr with content over scoring moral points. But relativity defines politics. There is no black or white in realpolitik.

Haha so instead of defending your leader Sharifs of their loot and corruption, you are accusing Imran of all things which doesnt make him corrupt.

By the way what do you think of Hudaibya pact? Was it hard for Allah to give his beloved prophet PBUH victory w/o going through all struggles. But no, Allah and His prophet PBUH wanted to setup an example that sometimes you have to set up pacts with your worst enemies to gain long term benefits.

Just answer one simple questions. Are Sharifs not corrupt and have not looted this country? Just answer in Yes and No. End of debate.

 

[blinding light]

Haha so instead of defending your leader Sharifs of their loot and corruption, you are accusing Imran of all things which doesnt make him corrupt.

By the way what do you think of Hudaibya pact? Was it hard for Allah to give his beloved prophet PBUH victory w/o going through all struggles. But no, Allah and His prophet PBUH wanted to setup an example that sometimes you have to set up pacts with your worst enemies to gain long term benefits.

Just answer one simple questions. Are Sharifs not corrupt and have not looted this country? Just answer in Yes and No. End of debate.

First of all, thanks so much for exhibiting your mental capacity in the very first line. At least now I won't have to type out a long post.

My dear selective reading, selective remembering friend, do read the first line of the second para of the previous post. Read it again until it sinks in. Now dont ask me such lame questions again.

YES, the Sharifs are corrupt. As were the Bhuttos. As are a lot of people. I never denied it and I never condoned it. But the continuity of the democratic system gave you a leader like Imran in 7 years. It WILL give you more of such leaders if you let the god damn thing continue! centuries worth of history of democracy from east to west bear testiment to this fact.

 

[godzilla]

rubbish. another seven years will be the same as the last seven years. just as imran played this crap system by the book for two elections. one immensely corrupt criminal replaced by another. itll continue to be a revolving door of corruption. it beggars belief that anyone could be so lackadaisical about corruption given how far reaching and devastating it has been for the country.

 

[godzilla]

...if he is so utterly pure and honest, why is he standing with Sheikh Rasheed? Why does he not continue his initial but morally correct about MQM and Altaf Hussain? Why does he think its alright to drone on and on about patwaris when 2 major waderas are his party's president and vice president? Why is he shrouding a radical anarchist like TUQ with his own legitimacy? If he's so honest, why is he allowing SMQ to speak in favour of the Parliament whilst standing in the Parliament but prefers to badmouth he Parliament and declare it illegitimate when he's outside it? Is he not lying when his own legal representatives apologise on his behalf in the Supreme Court for bashing the CJ/judiciary whilst simultaneously, he continues to personally lambast them in his jalsas? Does it not marr an honest man's integrity to stand beside the likes of Sheikh Rasheed, worse than that, give them thr post of special advisor?

are you seriously comparing a strategy to make uncomfortable alliances, AFTER two political cycles of not doing it, and without compromise of party principles, with deep seated financial raping of the country? do you have any sense of perspective whatsoever?

 

[blinding light]

rubbish. another seven years will be the same as the last seven years. just as imran played this crap system by the book for two elections. one immensely corrupt criminal replaced by another. itll continue to be a revolving door of corruption. it beggars belief that anyone could be so lackadaisical about corruption given how far reaching and devastating it has been for the country.

You mean one election, right? Since IK sat out the 2008 elections and we dont really count the fake 2002 stint.

One election. Can you really believe that ? One election and IK wins a whole province. What would 2-3 continuous terms do? IK sure does love to feed you all examples of UK, US, Sweden, germany, Japan whatnot - but any idea on how many yeara of democracy are shared in between these countries? Not 7 years, that I assure you.

 

[blinding light]

are you seriously comparing a strategy to make uncomfortable alliances, AFTER two political cycles of not doing it, and without compromise of party principles, with deep seated financial raping of the country? do you have any sense of perspective whatsoever?

This is exactly the kind of response given when beautiful virtues are propagated over cold harsh realities.

Uncomfortable alliances? Ha! Nice, crafty. I'll give you that. But inherently untrue.

I do have a perspective, a very simple one at that. let the damn system continue. Play your role as leader of the opposition, partake in democratic, nation-building politics, stop shroudind your hard earned legitimacy on the likes of Qadri. Give it TIME.

 

[godzilla]

You mean one election, right? Since IK sat out the 2008 elections and we dont really count the fake 2002 stint.

One election. Can you really believe that ? One election and IK wins a whole province. What would 2-3 continuous terms do? IK sure does love to feed you all examples of UK, US, Sweden, germany, Japan whatnot - but any idea on how many yeara of democracy are shared in between these countries? Not 7 years, that I assure you.

lets take your starting point, although i would claim the abstention was still a strategy, in accordance with this amazing system, to make a point. in any case, yes he won kpk - so what? the corruption hasnt stopped, the rigging didnt stop, the misgovernance hasnt stopped. and this all on the back of the most corrupt previous government there had been. the electoral process was all set to be 'fixed', the ink and paper was all ready, and what happened? absolutely nothing. its status quo yet again, apart from the visiting outsider in terms of pakistani politics left to play in the back yard in the kpk.

thats no sign of progress, its degenerative.

in your ridiculous analysis of foreign democracies, are you really so naive to assume that the only reason they work is continuity? well then what about syria and asad, if we're talking about continuity. what about mubarak and egypt? any idea how many terms they survived? that might give you a sense of what 2-3 terms does in a defunct, corrupt system run by crooks. whats the gdp per capita of germany, uk, us, sweden? do you think that might have anything to do with the success or otherwise of their democracies? do you think perhaps that the success of a democracy might be based on more than one single criterion? i assure you, it does.

 

[chacha kashmiri]

lets take your starting point, although i would claim the abstention was still a strategy, in accordance with this amazing system, to make a point. in any case, yes he won kpk - so what? the corruption hasnt stopped, the rigging didnt stop, the misgovernance hasnt stopped. and this all on the back of the most corrupt previous government there had been. the electoral process was all set to be 'fixed', the ink and paper was all ready, and what happened? absolutely nothing. its status quo yet again, apart from the visiting outsider in terms of pakistani politics left to play in the back yard in the kpk.

thats no sign of progress, its degenerative.

in your ridiculous analysis of foreign democracies, are you really so naive to assume that the only reason they work is continuity? well then what about syria and asad, if we're talking about continuity. what about mubarak and egypt? any idea how many terms they survived? that might give you a sense of what 2-3 terms does in a defunct, corrupt system run by crooks. whats the gdp per capita of germany, uk, us, sweden? do you think that might have anything to do with the success or otherwise of their democracies? do you think perhaps that the success of a democracy might be based on more than one single criterion? i assure you, it does.

Let's just imagine Imran Khan has this new constitution, written by himself, free of corruption, with all positions in power personally selected by him

Then let's wake up, smell the coffee and admit Imran Khan is part of the system , always has and always will and the only way he will change the system is when he wins it outright, unfair as it may be

 

[godzilla]

This is exactly the kind of response given when beautiful virtues are propagated over cold harsh realities.

Uncomfortable alliances? Ha! Nice, crafty. I'll give you that. But inherently untrue.

I do have a perspective, a very simple one at that. let the damn system continue. Play your role as leader of the opposition, partake in democratic, nation-building politics, stop shroudind your hard earned legitimacy on the likes of Qadri. Give it TIME.

irrespective of how many times you call it untrue, youre still wrong, it is true. hes tried abstentions - didnt work. he tried to go it alone - didnt work. just as he tried to fix the system through the courts the past year - didnt work. hes been left with no choice, because he believes that pakistan cannot sustain this onslaught of corruption, and he's gotten to that point because he thinks of more things than the colour of the frock papa will be bringing home tonight.

you refuse to actually show any perspective at all under almost any circumstance. at least the consistency is predictable.

how much time do you think the country has to play your democracy game, and whats your guess based on? you talk of corruption like its a measure of how much mehndi a particular party's representatives rub into their tinds. do you have any idea how serious this corruption is for the country? do you have any idea of how dire paksitans fiscal situation is, and the rate at which it is deteriorating? do you have any idea of how much more corruption and looting the country can sustain before collapsing into a failed state? do you think for a second, that the amount of time might not be limitless for this unsubstantiated fun schoolyard experiment in democracy?

 

[UsmanhailsAfridi]

lets take your starting point, although i would claim the abstention was still a strategy, in accordance with this amazing system, to make a point. in any case, yes he won kpk - so what? the corruption hasnt stopped, the rigging didnt stop, the misgovernance hasnt stopped. and this all on the back of the most corrupt previous government there had been. the electoral process was all set to be 'fixed', the ink and paper was all ready, and what happened? absolutely nothing. its status quo yet again, apart from the visiting outsider in terms of pakistani politics left to play in the back yard in the kpk.

thats no sign of progress, its degenerative.

in your ridiculous analysis of foreign democracies, are you really so naive to assume that the only reason they work is continuity? well then what about syria and asad, if we're talking about continuity. what about mubarak and egypt? any idea how many terms they survived? that might give you a sense of what 2-3 terms does in a defunct, corrupt system run by crooks. whats the gdp per capita of germany, uk, us, sweden? do you think that might have anything to do with the success or otherwise of their democracies? do you think perhaps that the success of a democracy might be based on more than one single criterion? i assure you, it does.

"the continuity of democracy will solve all the problems"...but no one knows what continuity means in this context, 100 years, 200 years, more? None of the examples that are given like the us or uk had corrupt systems to start with or such unstable atmospheres where a select few were looting the people of the nation dry...so there is no proof that continuity in democracy solved all their problems...among all those examples they all had honest leaders to start their journey right from the start...yes bad apples came in between who were weeded out but their foundations weren't set in quicksand like they are in Pakistan

people will have you believe don't put your belief in one guy because he won't change anything "until the people change" but on the same hand put your trust in democracy because just it continuing will change everything....

for the 100th time, no one here is against the correct application of democracy, what we are against is the illusion of democracy that is just there to make sure the business of looting continues


the first thing, the very first thing these "democrats" did after coming into power in 2008 is to change the constitution (2/3 majority required) to allow unlimited terms of the PM....brilliant...shows where their hearts are...you think that was done for the benefit of the people? you think in a country where more than half the people are below the poverty line, 2/3 are illiterate the current setup just by continuing will change itself for the betterment of the people...better you think those in charge will let the system change? foolishness

 

[godzilla]

Let's just imagine Imran Khan has this new constitution, written by himself, free of corruption, with all positions in power personally selected by him

Then let's wake up, smell the coffee and admit Imran Khan is part of the system , always has and always will and the only way he will change the system is when he wins it outright, unfair as it may be

what on earth are you trying to say? so what if hes been participating in the system? if the system is corrupt, and hes trying to fix it, and hes working within the system to do that - your conclusion is what exactly? that he is corrupt? and why do you think he can only change the system when he wins outright? whats that based on?

 

[UsmanhailsAfridi]

irrespective of how many times you call it untrue, youre still wrong, it is true. hes tried abstentions - didnt work. he tried to go it alone - didnt work. just as he tried to fix the system through the courts the past year - didnt work. hes been left with no choice, because he believes that pakistan cannot sustain this onslaught of corruption, and he's gotten to that point because he thinks of more things than the colour of the frock papa will be bringing home tonight.

you refuse to actually show any perspective at all under almost any circumstance. at least the consistency is predictable.

how much time do you think the country has to play your democracy game, and whats your guess based on? you talk of corruption like its a measure of how much mehndi a particular party's representatives rub into their tinds. do you have any idea how serious this corruption is for the country? do you have any idea of how dire paksitans fiscal situation is, and the rate at which it is deteriorating? do you have any idea of how much more corruption and looting the country can sustain before collapsing into a failed state? do you think for a second, that the amount of time might not be limitless for this unsubstantiated fun schoolyard experiment in democracy?

18 years ago he joined politics as a social worker...it take him 18 years to show results....care to tell me how long it took the sharif brothers and on what foundations did they come into Pakistani politics? they have been gaming the system for 30+ years and nothing has changed for them expect they have gotten fatter off it...the honest man has only gotten older and the society regressed

 

[godzilla]

"the continuity of democracy will solve all the problems"...but no one knows what continuity means in this context, 100 years, 200 years, more? None of the examples that are given like the us or uk had corrupt systems to start with or such unstable atmospheres where a select few were looting the people of the nation dry...so there is no proof that continuity in democracy solved all their problems...among all those examples they all had honest leaders to start their journey right from the start...yes bad apples came in between who were weeded out but their foundations weren't set in quicksand like they are in Pakistan

people will have you believe don't put your belief in one guy because he won't change anything "until the people change" but on the same hand put your trust in democracy because just it continuing will change everything....

for the 100th time, no one here is against the correct application of democracy, what we are against is the illusion of democracy that is just there to make sure the business of looting continues


the first thing, the very first thing these "democrats" did after coming into power in 2008 is to change the constitution (2/3 majority required) to allow unlimited terms of the PM....brilliant...shows where their hearts are...you think that was done for the benefit of the people? you think in a country where more than half the people are below the poverty line, 2/3 are illiterate the current setup just by continuing will change itself for the betterment of the people...better you think those in charge will let the system change? foolishness

i agree. the thing that really surprises me is how the arguments against the pti and for this damned system are devoid of any real and relevant facts being quoted.

i tried to add some to that stupidly long post i wrote - but in short, in the current system there is NO incentive for the ruling oligarchs to change anything other than to placate idiots with their lip service. pakistan is amongst the lowest tax collectors in the world. one third of the populations survives on less than 30p a day. how is that imbalance of power ever going to be redressed to the people whilst corruption is allowed to flourish in multiple institutions so freely? how are the oligarchs incentivised to start taxing the hell out of themselves as a start? nawaz sharif paid 15k in taxes last year. thats coming from someone who is allegedly a billionaire. how likely is he to change things?

 

[chacha kashmiri]

what on earth are you trying to say? so what if hes been participating in the system? if the system is corrupt, and hes trying to fix it, and hes working within the system to do that - your conclusion is what exactly? that he is corrupt? and why do you think he can only change the system when he wins outright? whats that based on?

My conclusion is that this utopian system that Imran Khan is fighting for does not exist in the real world
He is a politican who by nature wins by the ballot, he is not an army general nor a guerilla leader who seizes power by power

He will lead the country when he wins the ballots, he has himself admitted all his demands have been met in terms of judicial reviews etc
He cannot just wait for Nawaz to resign or for Nawaz to be forced to quit

 

[ehjaz]

عمران خان پاگل مت بنو واپس چلے جاؤ۔
یہ قوم وہ ھے جو اپنے بوڑھے بیمار باپ کو جان بوجھ کر خراب ایمبولینس میں ڈال دیتی ھے تاکہ وہ کسی ویران سڑک پر بے بسی اور لاچاری کی حالت میں ایڑیاں رگڑ رگڑ کر مر جائے۔۔۔
یہ وہ قوم ھے جو اپنے دفاع کو مضبوط بنانے والے بوڑھے قدیر خان کو ساری دنیا کے سامنے معافی کی بھیک مانگنے پر مجبور کر دیتی ھے۔ اس کے بڑھاپے کو اس کے وجود کے قید خانے میں قید تنہائی دے دیتی ھے۔
یہ وہی قوم ھے جو مادرملت کی تذلیل کر دینے میں ماھر ھے یعنی اپنی ماں کی شخصیت پر گندگی گرانے سے بھی نہیں دریغ کرتی۔
یہ وہ قوم ھے جو ایدھی جیسے فرشتے کو کسی دوسرے ملک میں بھاگ جانے کی حد تک مجبور کر دیتی ھے۔
جس قوم میں فٹ پاتھ پر طوطے سے فال نکالنے والے کو پروفیسر کہنے کا رواج ھو۔ سانڈے کے تیل نکانے والے کو پروفیسر حکیم کا خطاب دئیے جانے کا چلن ھو جہاں ڈگریاں ڈاکٹر رحمان ملک اور بابر اعوان جیسے کھوتوں کو ریوڑیوں کی طرح بانٹنے کی ریت ھو عامر لیاقت ، شرابی اشرفی اور فضلو جیسے علماء کہلاتے ھوں اور ساغر صدیقی جیسے فٹ پاتھوں پر رل رل کر مر جاتے ھوں وھاں تم جیسے انقلاب اور تبدیلی کی بات کرنے والے کو کس کھیت کی مولی سمجھا جائے گا؟؟؟؟۔
تم واپس لوٹ جاؤ۔ تمہارے پاس پیسہ ھے خوبصورت شخصیت ھے کسی دوسرے ملک میں جاؤ اور وھاں شہزادوں جیسی زندگی گزارو ورنہ یہ قوم تم کو اسی کنٹینر کے نیچے دے کر مار دے گی جس کی چھت پر بیس دن سے تقریریں کر کر کے پاگل ھو رھے ھو۔
یہ منافق قوم ھے اسے پیسے کی چھڑی سے جسے دل چاھے سجدے پر مجبور کیا جا سکتا ھے۔ تم جن کنگلوں میلے کچیلوں کو لے جا کر اسلام آباد میں بیٹھ گئے ھو ان کو اس معاشرے میں صرف ووٹ بینک سمجھا جاتا ھے انقلاب کے پروانے نہیں۔
پاگل مت بنو اور لوٹ جاؤ اس منافق قوم کا کچھ نہیں ھو سکتا۔

 

[ehjaz]

subhan tum loogon ki sooch pey
Imran has not done anything. I can bring more people than imran on street.
well its usless to talk to you, since you have no clue just like imran!
again i am not support of N league.

ALLAH just saved pakistan fitna of qadri and imrani!

Seems like you have all the clues....You and Nawaz and Zardari > perfect match

 

[One_life_stand]

Imran has single handily done more damage to Pakistan, again the word is Pakistan ! damn it ! then I think any body else has done over his greed and ego. One man out in PTI setup which I respect the most is Hashmi. So anyone whos supporting Imran here are not Pakistanis as they wouldnt damage their own country.
He got electoral reforms but he is choosing to continue the drama. A puppet in hands of S Rasheed and other failures !

 

[Varun]

Who else of note is part of the PTI apart from Imran Khan? If hypothetically, Imran Khan left the PTI overnight would the party still continue to enjoy the same support? In other words, is it a one-man-army?

 

[pakistanigoneaussie]

Who else of note is part of the PTI apart from Imran Khan? If hypothetically, Imran Khan left the PTI overnight would the party still continue to enjoy the same support? In other words, is it a one-man-army?

half his party are rejects and defectors from the other big parties. If IK goes they loose support in the cities no doubt, but would still retain a vote from many of the individual constituencies due to feudal politics

 

[AZ]

Who else of note is part of the PTI apart from Imran Khan? If hypothetically, Imran Khan left the PTI overnight would the party still continue to enjoy the same support? In other words, is it a one-man-army?

pretty much a one-man party, yes.

 

[Mamoon]

So you suggest Pakistanis should continue with misery and blatant corruption?

Bro Pakistanis outside Pakistan still bleed green and they WILL come back to Pakistan overnight IF situation is improved. (I know for a fact my parents would!)

Pakistan's no. 1 problem is corruption and then 'terrorism' and I believe Imran Khan is the only politician who genuinely wants to improve Pakistan

Allahu Akbar and Insha'Allah truth shall prevail. Hate it or Love it.

No, they will not.

They have left this country because they have a better standard of living and lifestyle abroad and a more secure future. They couldn't care less about Nawaz and Zardari but of course, online patriotism is the easiest thing to do.

Situation will not change overnight; it will take half a century for Pakistan to compete with the most stable economic states in the world and these people who are blowing Imran's trumpet will not come back to this country if Imran becomes the PM.

One of the more sensible things you have said but I would add that if the man at the top is honest then people will believe that being honest is not a waste and they are part of creating a better society and it's worth sacrificing for the greater good. Just look at the contributions made to his hospital or to Edhi. As long as NS and the PPP are around no body will or wants to sacrifice.

Good post, agree here.

Agreed, but you need someone to lead by example.

If the guy at the top is honest and fair, it will have a trickle down effect.

It's the same thing you see with corruption. Everyone just ends up saying, "Well, he's doing it too so why not me?" and that's their justification. They won't have that option any more when the guy at the top is honest.

Yes and this is why I voted for PTI and convinced more people than I can remember to do the same. I don't disagree with his vision, but I simply don't comply with his sportsman attitude in politics. He should have mellowed his demand of Nawaz's resignation once his other demands were met but he decided not to because it would be embarrassing to backtrack.

Mamoon bhai ap k andazay hamesha galt he hotay hain .. Ap ki mukhalfat achi khabar hai PTI walon k liye

Allah karay.

 

[Varun]

half his party are rejects and defectors from the other big parties. If IK goes they loose support in the cities no doubt, but would still retain a vote from many of the individual constituencies due to feudal politics

pretty much a one-man party, yes.

I thought so, and I take it that the only reason people are gravitated towards him is because of his cricketing achievements 20+ years ago, and not because of any political nous or caliber.

 

[Mamoon]

Who else of note is part of the PTI apart from Imran Khan? If hypothetically, Imran Khan left the PTI overnight would the party still continue to enjoy the same support? In other words, is it a one-man-army?

Imran's party is made up of a bunch of loser politicans (barring a few) who are on his bandwagon because PTI is hot these days but as soon as they sense that the future is bleak, they will jump ship like they have before.

Future of PTI post-Imran looks bleak and this whole concept of 'change' has been flawed since the day Imran decided to collaborate with the same old crap who have sucked blood of the poor people throughout their lives.

In short, majority of the people in his camp represent everything that Imran hates and stands against.

 

[CricketCartoons]

I thought so, and I take it that the only reason people are gravitated towards him is because of his cricketing achievements 20+ years ago, and not because of any political nous or caliber.

so the people have suddenly woken up to his cricketing achievements that happen more than 22 years ago? why were they not behind him earlier?

some people should be banned from commenting on pakistani politics.

 

[Varun]

Imran's party is made up of a bunch of loser politicans (barring a few) who are on his bandwagon because PTI is hot these days but as soon as they sense that the future is bleak, they will jump ship like they have before.

Future of PTI post-Imran looks bleak and this whole concept of 'change' has been flawed since the day Imran decided to collaborate with the same old crap who have sucked blood of the poor people throughout their lives.

In short, majority of the people in his camp represent everything that Imran hates and stands against.

We had a similar pseudo-revolutionist down here who went by the name of Arvind Kejriwal. Needless to say, he didn't get far though the people of Delhi were kind enough to offer him one chance at the job.

 

[Indiafan]

18 years ago he joined politics as a social worker...it take him 18 years to show results....care to tell me how long it took the sharif brothers and on what foundations did they come into Pakistani politics? they have been gaming the system for 30+ years and nothing has changed for them expect they have gotten fatter off it...the honest man has only gotten older and the society regressed

It took 18 years to show results because the system was not continued. Why is this so difficult to understand?

When something is interrupted again and again, it affects the new players and not old corrupt guys. Corrupt guys will always have advantage. To remove this advantage, the new players need to become stronger and more popular which happens within the sytem

And do you know how much time Obama, Modi or any political leader spent at grass root level before becoming President/Prime Minister?

 

[s28]

pretty much a one-man party, yes.

most of the major agents of change in the history of the World have been 'one man armies'

they are usually the ones who have the foresight and courage to challenge the establishment whilst everyone else cowers in the background and accepts living their lives as slaves

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) , Mandela, Gandhi etc

 

[dhump]

پشاور: وزرا دھرنے میں مصروف، حکومتی کام ٹھپ​

پاکستان تحریک انصاف کے آزادی مارچ اور دھرنے میں شرکت کی وجہ سے خیبر پختونخوا حکومت کے وزیرِاعلی اور وزرا کے دفاتر خالی پڑے ہیں جس سے بظاہر حکومت کا کام ٹھپ ہو کر رہ گیا ہے۔
وزرا کا کہنا ہے کہ وہ اپنے دفاتر سے رابطے میں ہیں اور دھرنے وہ لوگوں کی بہتری کے لیے دے رہے ہیں۔

صوبائی سیکریٹریٹ میں وزرا کے دفاتر میں تین ہفتوں سے ہو کا عالم ہے۔ لوگ ان وزرا کے دفاتر کے چکر کاٹ رہے ہیں لیکن ان سے رابطے نہیں ہو رہے۔

ان دفاتر میں موجود سرکاری افسران نے نام ظاہر نہ کرنے کی شرط پر بتایا کہ وزرا کے دفاتر میں سینکٹروں فائلیں التوا میں پڑی ہیں اور دور دور سے آنے والے افراد اپنے نجی کاموں کے لیے دفاتر کے چکر لگاتے ہیں لیکن ان کے کام نہیں ہو رہے ہیں۔
ادھر صوبائی اسمبلی میں موجود حزب اختلاف کے اراکین نے بھی وزرا کی دفاتر سے عدم دستیابی پر سخت تنقید کی ہے۔

اسلام آباد میں پارلیمان کے مشترکہ اجلاس سے خطاب میں قومی وطن پارٹی کے سربراہ آفتاب احمد خان شیر پاؤ نے بھی اپنی تقریر میں ان مسائل کا ذکر کیا۔

پشاور میں اسی دوران دو مرتبہ شدید طوفان اور بارشوں سے ہونے والے نقصانات پر بھی حزب اختلاف کے اراکین نے وزیرِ اعلی اور صوبائی وزرا پر تنقید کرتے ہوئے کہا تھا کہ پشاور میں لوگ مر رہے ہیں اور وزیراعلیٰ آزادی مارچ میں شریک ہیں۔
صوبائی وزیرِ تعلیم محمد عاطف خان نے بی بی سی کو بتایا کہ وزیرِاعلیٰ اور تمام وزرا اسلام آباد میں بھی بیٹھ کر اپنے دفاتر کے کام کر رہے ہیں اور کوئی کام التوا میں نہیں ہے۔

ان سے جب پوچھا کہ دفتری کام تو آپ ادھر بیٹھ کر کر رہے ہیں لیکن ان اراکین اور وزرا کے اپنے حلقوں کے افراد اور دیگر علاقوں سے آنے والے افراد کے کام تو نہیں ہو رہے تو اس پر ان کا کہنا تھا کہ وہ یہ دھرنے اپنے لیے نہں بلکہ لوگوں کے مسائل کے حل کے لیے دے رہے ہیں۔
عاطف خان نے کہا کہ’یہاں سارا نظام ہی غلط ہے، حکمران مینڈیٹ چوری کر کے آئے ہیں جس وجہ سے یہاں آوے کا آوا ہی بگڑا ہوا ہے۔‘
انھوں نے مزید کہا کہ صوبائی وزرا کی عدم موجودگی سے لوگوں کو جو مشکلات پیش آئی ہیں وہ اس پر ان سے معذرت کرتے ہیں لیکن ہر ضلع اور صوبے کی سطح پر افسران موجود ہیں جبکہ ان کے حلقوں میں مقامی رہنما ہیں جو لوگوں کے مسائل حل کرنے کی کوششیں کر رہے ہیں۔
ان لوگوں کی شکایات اور حزب اختلاف کی تنقید کے بعد وزیرِ اعلیٰ خیبر پختونخوا پرویز خٹک نے وزرا سے کہا تھا کہ وہ دن کے وقت پشاور میں اپنے دفاتر میں حاضری ضرور دیں اور پھر شام سے پہلے اسلام آباد دھرنے میں پہنچیں۔​

http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/pakistan/2014/09/140903_peshawar_ministers_offices_rwa.shtml


Another failure of PTI and a huge one I must say.

 

[pakistanisgreat]

Seems like you have all the clues....You and Nawaz and Zardari > perfect match

again i am not fan or support of any party. I was big fan of Imran until August 14. i gave vote to imran. do every thing but with system! please wait for your turn. this is not T20 match this is test match where you need whole alot time to win match.

 

[Indiafan]

most of the major agents of change in the history of the World have been 'one man armies'

they are usually the ones who have the foresight and courage to challenge the establishment whilst everyone else cowers in the background and accepts living their lives as slaves

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) , Mandela, Gandhi etc

Some good examples. However, there is a huge difference between when you are fighting outsiders and when you are fighting within yourself. You have to take everything down while fighting others and hurt them. When you are doing things within your country, you are fighting your own countrymen and you end up hurting yourself

Gandhi fought the British. His non-cooperation hurt the British and their money. It didn't harm India. Similarly Mandela fought for black rights when they did not have any. So his movement hurt the dominant whites. On the other hand Imran is fighting a system in his own country

 

[s28]

There's no debating with people who will call black white and white black

Apparently Mandela and Gandhi didn't 'fight a system in their own country'

 

[pakistani pride]

again i am not fan or support of any party. I was big fan of Imran until August 14. i gave vote to
imran. do every thing but with system! please wait for your turn. this is not T20 match this is test match where you need whole alot time to win match.

And what if your vote has been changed or not counted at all.?

 

[pakistanisgreat]

And what if your vote has been changed or not counted at all.?

that's not issue. Imran was asking to investigate on 4 seats, which would not even do anything to him. i am really disappointed. he should have waited by next election. i was really hopeful that he would be next president but now he opened the door for Bilawal Butto.

 

[the Great Khan]

I'll be honest, Imran was a sporting hero for my generation. A legend who gave Pakistan honour in the sporting arena like Jahangir and jaansher khan.

But coming to politics, if Imran was a pink elephant with blue ears saying the same thing sI would support him. Why, because the system is broken and needs fixing else it will stagnate and you will get Syria or worse Somalia. That is a fact.

For those who say "well I support change but not PTI" fine present your change alternative.
For those who say "I hate our corrupt politicians but the system must continue" I say wake up, they are a product of the system and have tailored it to fit their corrupt needs. Just look at the way they and their supporters are mocking the poor who have decided to remind them of their existence? "we cant even come through the front door" is a common complaint. What a myopic beghairat way of looking at things. Then we have blatant traitors like achakzai who should be tried for treason and hung.

Imran isn't even asking for much. But what he is asking for can help secure the foundations of the state for years to come. Its very small basic things that can make a massive difference to the everyday lives of people. Law and order reform, electoral reform and local governance. Everything can be done and the returns can be massive. You just need the will to do it.

 

[the Great Khan]

oh and another thing sh.rasheed. Many hate him, many see him as an opportunist. He is all of those things but above all he is a patriot. A flawed , ghunda type but a survivor and a patriot. Give me sh.rasheed over achakzai,zardari and Nawaz any day of the week. But that in itself shows the weakness of our politics.

Let me remind people, in 4 years time your new PM will be Bilawal. That is inevitable and there is nothing you can do about it unless you allow reforms.

 

[Sakss]

oh and another thing sh.rasheed. Many hate him, many see him as an opportunist. He is all of those things but above all he is a patriot. A flawed , ghunda type but a survivor and a patriot. Give me sh.rasheed over achakzai,zardari and Nawaz any day of the week. But that in itself shows the weakness of our politics.

Let me remind people, in 4 years time your new PM will be Bilawal. That is inevitable and there is nothing you can do about it unless you allow reforms.

This is true

 

[Indiafan]

This is the funniest thing I read

Don't interfere in politics, PAT tells Supreme Court
The Pakistan Awami Tehreek on Thursday submitted its response in the Supreme Court and said the court should not intervene in political matters.

PAT's counsel Advocate Ali Zafar submitted the party's response today which stated that the court should order the government to respond to the demands of protesters and that judicial intervention in electoral matters violated the Constitution.

Come on, you cannot have it both ways

 

[ehjaz]

پشاور: وزرا دھرنے میں مصروف، حکومتی کام ٹھپ​

پاکستان تحریک انصاف کے آزادی مارچ اور دھرنے میں شرکت کی وجہ سے خیبر پختونخوا حکومت کے وزیرِاعلی اور وزرا کے دفاتر خالی پڑے ہیں جس سے بظاہر حکومت کا کام ٹھپ ہو کر رہ گیا ہے۔
وزرا کا کہنا ہے کہ وہ اپنے دفاتر سے رابطے میں ہیں اور دھرنے وہ لوگوں کی بہتری کے لیے دے رہے ہیں۔

صوبائی سیکریٹریٹ میں وزرا کے دفاتر میں تین ہفتوں سے ہو کا عالم ہے۔ لوگ ان وزرا کے دفاتر کے چکر کاٹ رہے ہیں لیکن ان سے رابطے نہیں ہو رہے۔

ان دفاتر میں موجود سرکاری افسران نے نام ظاہر نہ کرنے کی شرط پر بتایا کہ وزرا کے دفاتر میں سینکٹروں فائلیں التوا میں پڑی ہیں اور دور دور سے آنے والے افراد اپنے نجی کاموں کے لیے دفاتر کے چکر لگاتے ہیں لیکن ان کے کام نہیں ہو رہے ہیں۔
ادھر صوبائی اسمبلی میں موجود حزب اختلاف کے اراکین نے بھی وزرا کی دفاتر سے عدم دستیابی پر سخت تنقید کی ہے۔

اسلام آباد میں پارلیمان کے مشترکہ اجلاس سے خطاب میں قومی وطن پارٹی کے سربراہ آفتاب احمد خان شیر پاؤ نے بھی اپنی تقریر میں ان مسائل کا ذکر کیا۔

پشاور میں اسی دوران دو مرتبہ شدید طوفان اور بارشوں سے ہونے والے نقصانات پر بھی حزب اختلاف کے اراکین نے وزیرِ اعلی اور صوبائی وزرا پر تنقید کرتے ہوئے کہا تھا کہ پشاور میں لوگ مر رہے ہیں اور وزیراعلیٰ آزادی مارچ میں شریک ہیں۔
صوبائی وزیرِ تعلیم محمد عاطف خان نے بی بی سی کو بتایا کہ وزیرِاعلیٰ اور تمام وزرا اسلام آباد میں بھی بیٹھ کر اپنے دفاتر کے کام کر رہے ہیں اور کوئی کام التوا میں نہیں ہے۔

ان سے جب پوچھا کہ دفتری کام تو آپ ادھر بیٹھ کر کر رہے ہیں لیکن ان اراکین اور وزرا کے اپنے حلقوں کے افراد اور دیگر علاقوں سے آنے والے افراد کے کام تو نہیں ہو رہے تو اس پر ان کا کہنا تھا کہ وہ یہ دھرنے اپنے لیے نہں بلکہ لوگوں کے مسائل کے حل کے لیے دے رہے ہیں۔
عاطف خان نے کہا کہ’یہاں سارا نظام ہی غلط ہے، حکمران مینڈیٹ چوری کر کے آئے ہیں جس وجہ سے یہاں آوے کا آوا ہی بگڑا ہوا ہے۔‘
انھوں نے مزید کہا کہ صوبائی وزرا کی عدم موجودگی سے لوگوں کو جو مشکلات پیش آئی ہیں وہ اس پر ان سے معذرت کرتے ہیں لیکن ہر ضلع اور صوبے کی سطح پر افسران موجود ہیں جبکہ ان کے حلقوں میں مقامی رہنما ہیں جو لوگوں کے مسائل حل کرنے کی کوششیں کر رہے ہیں۔
ان لوگوں کی شکایات اور حزب اختلاف کی تنقید کے بعد وزیرِ اعلیٰ خیبر پختونخوا پرویز خٹک نے وزرا سے کہا تھا کہ وہ دن کے وقت پشاور میں اپنے دفاتر میں حاضری ضرور دیں اور پھر شام سے پہلے اسلام آباد دھرنے میں پہنچیں۔​

http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/pakistan/2014/09/140903_peshawar_ministers_offices_rwa.shtml


Another failure of PTI and a huge one I must say.

you must be celebrating then, right?

 

[ehjaz]

again i am not fan or support of any party. I was big fan of Imran until August 14. i gave vote to imran. do every thing but with system! please wait for your turn. this is not T20 match this is test match where you need whole alot time to win match.

its now or never situation.......imran wasting his energy for wrong people

 

[dhump]

you must be celebrating then, right?

Why should I celebrate exactly ??

 

[pakistanisgreat]

its now or never situation.......imran wasting his energy for wrong people

yes he did waste his energy for wrong people such as S rasheed, Choudry brothers! completely agree with you.

If imran was not wasting his time for wrong people his own people would not leave him!

You have good night!

 

[shakil]

Many people here give the status to Imran which is usually only reserved for prophets or sahabas. Criticizing Imran doesn't take us outside the fold of PTIanism. I will vote for Imran in next elections as well but it doesn't mean that agree with all his policies. In fact, I think the whole dharna has been deplorable show of self delusion.

 

[anakin]

This is the funniest thing I read
Don't interfere in politics, PAT tells Supreme Court
The Pakistan Awami Tehreek on Thursday submitted its response in the Supreme Court and said the court should not intervene in political matters.

PAT's counsel Advocate Ali Zafar submitted the party's response today which stated that the court should order the government to respond to the demands of protesters and that judicial intervention in electoral matters violated the Constitution.


Come on, you cannot have it both ways

Hehe,

 

[UsmanhailsAfridi]

Many people here give the status to Imran which is usually only reserved for prophets or sahabas. Criticizing Imran doesn't take us outside the fold of PTIanism. I will vote for Imran in next elections as well but it doesn't mean that agree with all his policies. In fact, I think the whole dharna has been deplorable show of self delusion.

the problem is not Imran Khan and his following...the problem is that a big portion of the country give the corrupt leaders like Sharif and Zardari the status of supreme beings

 

[blinding light]

Let us all rejoice now! We have succeeded!

Dunya and Samaa now breaking that the Chinese President has cancelled his visit due to security reasons. Security report mentions dharnas, violence, illegal setting up of checkposts to check police as the reasons for this decision. Had requested the evacuation of red zone.

They took Sheikh Rasheed on the line for this, and he bumbled his way through it, as usual.



Now does anyone understand why the STATE is more important than personalities?!

 

[exposer]

Had you actually watched these speeches, you'd have seen them condemning the Model Town incident in the harshest words.

& if you´d bothered to read my post carefully you´d have noticed the use of word "when". is this fake & condemnation needed with more than 2 months into the issue & now that ppl have gathered outside the parliament ?

minhaj-ul-quran weren´t allowed to file FIR. why didnt these democratic parties not raise their voice ? even if shahbaz wasnt involved, why not demand his resignation for incompetence as his province´s police shot at 100 ppl ?

Aitzaz admits rigging took place yet asks the pm to stand firm on his job ? what idiocy is this. is this democracy where he himself admits that ppl´s mandate was stolen ? DEMOCRACY is there to serve the public, the voters, not pm! how hard is it to understand ?

DEMOCRATIC NATION´S PPL´S MANDATE HAS BEEN STOLEN ! this is monarchy!

PM chaachu nawaz lies about army´s intervention being demanded by pti & pat, nisar too lies. army clearly deny this. why wasnt the pm 1stly asked about lying & for having switched on army into it ?

does democracy allow for PM to involve army into politics ?

like all those corrupt ppl in the parliament you only jump in to preach about democracy when it hits their interest but not when its about public.

its a well known fact that non-rubber bullets too were used. but why doesnt anyone in your democratic parliament ask about it ? a doctor confirmed it.

but of course what hurts them most is attack on ptv office where no damage was done & none got injured or killed.

If IK didn't oppose democracy, he'd have turned back after electoral reforms were agreed to. He announced a civil disobedience movement, coordinated with and gave legitimacy to a crazy cleric like Qadri PURELY for NS' resignation. He has undeniably played a central role in allowing matters to escalate to this perilous level, and in my opinion, this political-brinkmanship-gone-horribly-wrong should be a lesson for him.

from demanding PM´s resignation IK has come down to demanding him only to step aside for a month so that rigging investigation could take place. wouldnt you expect nawaz´s to influence the investigation being already head of head ? no, PMLN didnt agree & used force on Saturday night, killing even more ppl & injuring many. his demand of resignation now is justified.

also, uncle nawaz also demanded zardari to step down for a month till his swiss bank case was to be investigated. didnt he demand same thing ? but since its my dear uncle nawaz we´ll overlook that.

since you love to preach about democracy, according to constitution a liar cant be in the parliament let alone a PM (read the saqid & ameen bit in the constitution). Nawaz lied about army´s intervention & on that grounds alone he can be asked to resign. he in fact lied in parliament. but why should that aspect of constituion matter as it goes against these looteras !

If IK was against democracy he wouldnt talk about elections & electoral reforms at all. if IK was against democracy he could´ve joined hands with Qadri in 2012. he didnt because he believes in elections. he is now protesting because of rigged elections. his simple demand was of recount of just 4 constituencies.

I could be wrong, but you seem more anti-democratic than pro-IK. No worries, you can ask this question again if Martial Law comes about. Please remember not to mention any of your civil rights because technically, democracy ensures civil rights not dictatorships, and these rights are secured and solidified only if the democratic process continues for a number of years, uninterrupted.

you cry when labelled as pmln supporter but yourself imply that i could be anti-democratic. how sweet!

what makes you think i´m pro-IK at all ? you´ve been siding PMLN over every damn thing & even were adamant to prove in another thread it were just rubber bullets, & mostly stay silent on where they´ve failed. it wouldnt surprise me to see you even trying to find loopholes in govt´s favor in the model town incident, yet you so sweetly claim being a neutral, then I can claim the same. i completely believe & trust you though that you´re a neutral. fine.

i´m damn neutral. very neutral. i will criticise pti & pat when needed & even do on social media when i feel the need to do so.

i´m not anti-PMLN either, i luv their metro bus & every thing. so please refrain from labels such as myself being anti-democracy & pro-IK. refrain from what hurts you yourself.

& whats this nonsense about martial law ? where have i called for it ? facts are, bhutto used to call general ayyub daddy & nawaz sprung from zia´s jholi. these parties that are talking most about democracy are themselves a product of army.

coming back to your drivel about martial law, again, who brought army into the issue ? IK, TUQ or PM ? its govt which deserves to be blamed if army intervenes ?

ppl are asking for their right for free & fair (re)election. this is their democratic right. this is democracy, not simply accepting this just for the sake of it. i´m amazed to see educated ppl asking the public (the voters) to accept rigged elections! which democracy says this ? do ppl even have an idea of how a democracy works ?

let me give you an example:

Party X comes into power through elections, fair & free elections.

Article 25A says : The State shall provide free and compulsory education to all children of the age of 5 to 16 years in such manner as may be determined by law.

so based on this article i stress the govt to ensure this right for ppl in my village & lets say 6-7 more from my area. admitt that it cant happen in a day, but govt shows no interest at all. after stressing on this for 15 months i decide to protest against govt demanding the pm or cm to resign because of his inability to deliver or even pay attention to it. i march on with with all those ppl belonging to above villages.

theres a great possibility the person responsible may not resign. i wont settle with just assurance that govt will finally take me seriously because i´ve gathered 1000s of ppl not for the right of education, rather instead for resignation. why should ppl need to gather & march at all for fulfilment of basic rights ? the march is to demand resignation.

deadlock ! the army then decides to step in seeing that roads & streets are blocked by so many ppl since weeks.

how is it mine & those protesters fault if martial law is imposed ? so what you´re preaching is ppl should quitly sit back & not demand for their rights just because army may intervene. what utter garbage & nonsense are you preaching ?

I hate to admit this, but this is political rhetoric. Politics is a power game - everyone raises 'their voices' only for issues that have some form of personal benefit for them. On all sides of the political spectrum.

exactly the point aaplicable to those who give speeches in the parliament, which fascinate you so much. anyone who thinks they´re fighting for democracy instead of their own seats is seriously deluded.

 

[saadibaba]

oh and another thing sh.rasheed. Many hate him, many see him as an opportunist. He is all of those things but above all he is a patriot. A flawed , ghunda type but a survivor and a patriot. Give me sh.rasheed over achakzai,zardari and Nawaz any day of the week. But that in itself shows the weakness of our politics.

Let me remind people, in 4 years time your new PM will be Bilawal. That is inevitable and there is nothing you can do about it unless you allow reforms.

Aap ke maun main ghee shakar!


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