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Punjab Governer Salman Taseer Killed

"Mr Abc itna shareef aur neik insaan hai kay sari umar us nay shalwar takhno say neechay nehin ki"

Oh there's Gems like that...

P.S - I'm not gonna get into some of the Primary de facto cases in Pak where some of the type of people supporting Taseers murder because of "Religion" are the same "religious men".. Pardon the crudeness.. seeing and doing someone elses wife or grooming someones daughter..
 
That was opinion based on my personal experience and observation, not trying to sell any stats or research.

Considering the lack of education and poverty and everything else, I'd say not many I'm afraid.

The majority of Pakistanis are conservative. A lot more money needs to be spent on rural areas especially in the education sector.
 
The majority of Pakistanis are conservative. A lot more money needs to be spent on rural areas especially in the education sector.

Yes they are, but some posters tried to make it seem as if cultural conservatism means silent support for religious militancy. I've seen seemingly conservative Pakistanis without any religious vigour.
 
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Seems like my uncle was hit hard by Salman Taseer's death.

Never knew he was my uncle's friend from his childhood days. Tough stuff.
 
What made me boil today was this.

I posted a status on my Facebook condemning the killing. I have also condemned drone attacks in the past as well.

This guy comes in and writes on my wall

"lets discuss drone attacks"

Why do people assume that if one speaks out against such killings he is a supporter of drone attacks? Small minds I tell you.
 
What the heck?!

Someone gets shot, and instead of arresting the assassin, they are dressing him up with pholoon ka haar, and calling a hero?!

What jahaalat.
 
It's a sad yet interesting situation. I guess a relatively bigger majority is either celebrating the unlawful death of Salman Taseer or have no regret whatsoever in comparison to the folks who r standing with the fact Mr Taseer's death is not only unfortunate but also tears apart law of the land that we must all abide by.
I think you're right - but I would like to elaborate a bit on your point, if I may. An overwhelming majority of Pakistanis today would be in the camp where they may not celebrate his death, but certainly do not mourn it either - that's certainly my position. I think his murder was wrong and condemnable, and the killer should be properly and swiftly punished by law, but more than that - not really.

In reality, this case shows very clearly that there are three broad camps in Pakistan. The TTP religious extremists on one hand, who are killing and murdering through bomb blasts; the liberal extremists on the other hand, who are also killing and murdering with impunity, whether in Swat, in Lal Masjid, in FATA, in Wana, or in other similar instances, whether through army actions, through CIA black-ops etc, or through drones. And then there is the great majority of Pakistanis in the middle.

Sadly, most discourse is dominated by the two extremes. The TTP and their affiliated terrorists would not have more than 1 or 2% support in Pakistan (if that!), yet the media gives their people prominence as if they speak for every religious or practising Muslim in the country!

Similarly, the extreme liberal and secular elite, the Western educated or trained uber-rich who run many of the English websites, newspapers and TV programmes etc etc, would not be more than 1 or 2% of the population, but as they are the elite, they control most things (at least financially) and get affronted whenever their control or hegemony is thwarted or threatened. Where they don't have actual control (for instance in legal and religious matters), they at the very least control the public discourse and the debate.

Both these extremes are as bad as the other, and have grown stronger and more entrenched as a reaction to each other. The great majority are neither at these liberal extremes nor at these religious extremes. The majority is mostly conservative, believes in Islam and an Islamic society (often, hypocritically so), and certainly does not believe in violence to murder innocents, whether in Lahore, FATA, Swat or Karachi. They might not all be overtly religious, or all follow Islam as a way of life, or practice many Islamic acts; but their mindset and their outlook is mostly very conservative, and that conservatism mostly grows out of Islam. Some of them might also be hypocritical, so there will be those who might do the very things they condemn or disapprove in others, but mostly, in their minds, even these people would have a clear view of "right" and "wrong", and even when indulging in pastimes they would categorise as "wrong", they often manage to stay on the moral high horse and maintain a sense of self-righteousness.

This majority might vote for the PPP, PMLs, even the MQM or the ANP - many of whom are "secular" parties and/or politicians, but for these people in the middle, their vote does not define them or their lifestyles. They remain conservative in outlook and practice, which is why even the great secular hope Musharraf, or many of a similar outlook in the higher echelons of the MQM / ANP / PPP [and the current Army high command], are relatively powerless to achieve most of their secular objectives. Not because they are scared of the 1% who support the TTP and the other 1% who support JI / JUI-F etc - but because they know the majority won't stand for it, even their own voters and constituencies.

Hence two of the shrewdest and smartest political operators in the PPP, Babar Awan and Jamshed Dasti, two people who are incidentally amongst the closest to the President and the PM respectively, came out very strongly and even vehemently against Taseer et al's views on the blasphemy issue right at the outset - because they know which way their bread is buttered, they know what their electorate wants and cannot stand and they are politicians. [As an aside, it was ironic that these two alongwith Taseer are also amongst most ill-reputed and even odious members of the current government, but I guess that probably explains why they are given such importance by their respective patrons!]

The subsequent and wrong murder of Taseer was actually a reaction from this "great majority". The liberal extremists [just like their religious counter-parts] sometimes go too far in their desire to subjugate the thoughts, the social mores and the laws of the rest of the country, and this issue was one of those. If one notes the names and the organisations of the hitherto unknown people who have come out vocally and forcefully in support of the murder and the murderer, and have refused to pray for Taseer and condemned him - they are those who hate the TTP ideology and people, and in fact, they are the very people who were previously described as "moderate" and "mainstream".

Often, the liberal extremists would extol the virtues of this type of "Barelvi" Islam and of its adherents, and give them great prestige - personally I am not a Barelvi and disagree strongly with their theology, but one has to acknowledge that the involvement of our Barelvi brothers in terrorist violence and bloodshed in recent years has been minimal, almost non-existent. They have been often been a victim of TTP terrorism sadly, but not the instigators.

The point that many of us are now missing is that its not the TTP or some other fringe terrorist who has committed this murder. Its a mainstream Muslim who is apparently not part of any extreme organisation. Hence, the surprising (to me, at least) great public support for the murderer, or at least, tacit approval now. Even those who are out on the streets burning tyres at this murder, ie the PPP die-hards and the paid political mischief-makers, are primarily doing so out of political motives to score points off the current Punjab govt. - hence the recent comments from Awan and others in the PPP hierarchy giving political connotations to the murder as opposed to religious or societal ones.

The mainstream majority are rationalising the issue very easily, it seems - they consider Taseer's life and the events leading up to his death, and they see a series of actions and behaviours that they consider vile - they contrast that with his murderer's life and action, and they see a man acting for the 'greater good' and in fact, sacrificing his life and his freedom for it. In their appraisal, its easy to know whom to support, or at least, whom not to support. They might not be joining the murderer's FB page, but they are certainly quite sanguine and even relieved at the event, and ambivalent on the whole issue.

Whilst vigilante justice is IMHO always condemnable and wrong, it is nonetheless instructive to understand the reasons and the drivers which lead to it, in particular where it has wide public support, as in this instance.
 
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Oh my, the assassin has so many likes on facebook! And people are calling him the hero of pakistan for killing a person?! This isn't Islam.
 
Sorry, I hadn't read a couple of pages posts last night before writing my magnum opus above :D It seems the same points had already been made and discussed before.
the majority of people want honour for their family, honour for their deen and an honourable way of making a living...that is all..but they are constantly denied all..their families are not safe, their deen is lambasted constantly by "liberals" and they cant eat anymore!!

now you talk of speaking out..it will do you know good because the masses no longer want to hear secular prattle..they want roti, deen, insaaniyat or insaaf!! give them all of those and it will bring peace and then maybe on will be able to talk about secularism or liberalism in society!

Unfortunatley Murhoom Taseer represented a detached elite who's liberal lifestyle is against he grain of everything that a normal Pakistani thinks is right...hence why no one is shedding any tears..

of course its sick what happened to him but this happens all the time to innocent people in karachi,fata, sindh, punjab why should they care what happens to him?? solve the masses problems and you these things wont happen..
Top post.In pakistan ordinary people suffer every day at the hands of ruling elite but these parasites are busy taking their country for a ride.Its sad he lost his life but these politicians kill ordinary folk directly and indirectly every single day.

Mr Taseer,s kids wont die of hunger without roti but when a mazdoor dies from a stray bullet in Karachi or a drone in fata his family dies every single day from hunger poverty and social injustices.

These politicians need to get the message that its high they stop treating
normal ppl like keeray makoray or yahan aur kai taseers marain ge.
People here are blaming Extreme Islamic fanatics for the current situation of Pakistan. But they are forgetting to see the other side of the picture. You need two to tango. So called ultra modern secular (liberal) Muslims are equally responsible for this situation. These liberal muslims never misses a chance to criticise anything about Islam (right or wrong). Both Islamic extremists and Liberal extremists should come to the middle ground and settle the matter. Islam is the religion of peace and is against any kind of extremist (islamic or liberal).
Indeed, and well said.
 
Oh my, the assassin has so many likes on facebook! And people are calling him the hero of pakistan for killing a person?! This isn't Islam.

As someone said... Let's all pray to Allah to save Islam from Pakistan..
 
To quote from an impassioned oped by Saroop Ijaz on the pitifully muted public reaction condemning the murder:

The media discussions immediately after the horrific attack were very cautious, the political leaders economised their words, and condemnation of the incident was often followed by carefully structured clawback comments. A few of the leaders and media anchors went so far as positing the question of whether the assassination was justified or not. All of us should be repulsed.

Media personnel and politicians are ostensibly being ‘objective’ about the issue. Those who condemn the incident refuse to comment on the blasphemy law issue that provided the impetus for the barbarism, as it is a ‘sensitive’ subject. Cowardice is not sensitivity. Neutrality now is immoral. Bipartisanship is spinelessness. Silence is criminal. We live in a society where condemning a daylight murder of a statesman by a religious fundamentalist lunatic requires ‘caution’.

Politicians and the media were nowhere to be found when absurd fatwas were being issued against Mr Taseer. It is ironic that the same media personnel who have no qualms over inciting murder choose to tread carefully on medieval barbarism. Our society at large has been desensitised to the point of resignation.
 
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Inaa lilahi wa ina ilayhi raajioon.

Totally speechless! I've never been a fan of him, but again, I was never a fan of Benazir Bhutto either - both got killed in similar ways.

One thing is for sure - for the Blasphemy Aasia case, I wanted unbiased investigation to prove what really happened. Whether the Christian lady was guilty or not would be decided in accordance to whatever the investigations turn up. But God knows how rare a feat that is in this country. Just because we're Pakistanis and Muslims, does not give us a right to persecute anyone of another religion without any proof. We need to sort out the mess our minority is in. And balance out the blasphemy laws, apply a better type of standard of proof. Minorities should not be out-cast, we were once a minority too.

I agree. The system needs to be revised such that without hard evidence, persecution is not possible. I'm afraid that minorities may be targeted w false accusations regarding blasphemy. As per my father, some Muslims are also framed by fellow Muslims w whom they might
have personal vendettas and falsely accused of blasphemy.

This is a very, very sensitive issue, blasphemy, and the law dates back to colonial times.
 
I agree. The system needs to be revised such that without hard evidence, persecution is not possible. I'm afraid that minorities may be targeted w false accusations regarding blasphemy. As per my father, some Muslims are also framed by fellow Muslims w whom they might
have personal vendettas and falsely accused of blasphemy.

This is a very, very sensitive issue, blasphemy, and the law dates back to colonial times.

Lots and lots of muslims have been charged under this law. This law needs amendment along with education of pakistani people to combat the rising intolerance in our society
 
Bone-chilling.


What is bone chilling, exactly? Ppl in Pakistan are tired of these corrupt leaders. All they do is steal from the ppl and live their lavish lives. When they r done stealing and the lust for power has subsided, they run off to overseas and continue their luxurious lives. I'm not sorry he died...good riddance! He met his fate and every man's death is by Allah's will, even the way he dies.

If there's anyone yr going to sympathize with, sympathize w the ordinary ppl of Pakistan-the hungry, the destitute.
 
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What is bone chilling, exactly? Ppl in Pakistan are tired of these corrupt leaders. All they do is steal from the ppl and live their lavish lives. When they r done stealing and the lust for power has subsided, they run off to overseas and continue their luxurious lives. I'm not sorry he died...good riddance! He met his fate and every man's death is by Allah's will, even the way he dies.

If there's anyone yr going to sympathize with, sympathize w the ordinary ppl of Pakistan-the hungry, the destitute.

That serving policemen would support the assassination of a sitting governor.

Is it any wonder that no cricket team wants to tour Pakistan? The policemen ON DUTY are supporting the cold-blooded murder of the Governor of the largest province, how can you trust them to protect anyone else.
 
I agree. The system needs to be revised such that without hard evidence, persecution is not possible. I'm afraid that minorities may be targeted w false accusations regarding blasphemy. As per my father, some Muslims are also framed by fellow Muslims w whom they might
have personal vendettas and falsely accused of blasphemy.

This is a very, very sensitive issue, blasphemy, and the law dates back to colonial times.

The law in its current form was introduced by Zia/Nawaz Sharif. One of the suggested amendments (that the so-called ulemas are riling against) is to punish those making false accusations under the same law to settle personal scores etc. Think about this for a second. These people are saying that you are guilty of blasphemy even if you leave the law as it is and add a clause that punishes those who try to falsely frame their personal enemies under the law. This is like saying that if you even SPEAK against those who make FALSE accusations of murder, it makes you guilty of murder.

To silence all calls for the review of a man-made law that has clearly been abused even if you judge it without disagreeing with its spirit is dangerous and unfair. There must always be room for open discussion.

Re-posting this from an earlier post on the issue from November:

This show on the issue is a must-watch:

Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3 | Part 4 | Part 5


Part 4 has some informative stats on the history of cases registered under this law (the earlier parts also talk about the evolution of the law itself):

-From 1927 and 1986: no cases for blasphemy were even registered

-From 1986 to 1997: 361 cases registered in which 761 people were punished

-Out of these 761 who were convicted, 49% were non-Muslim, 69% were from Punjab, 25% from Sindh, 25% from KP

- Cases occurred the most in these 7 districts: Lahore, Faisalabad, Sialkot, Kasur, Sheikhpura, Gujranwala, Toba Tek Singh. 50% of Pakistan's Christians lives in these 7 districts.

- This part also has Ghamidi (renowned Islamic scholar, ex Jamat-e-Islami) saying this law has no Islamic basis, and in fact it has had dangerous consequences for the invitation to Islam.

- And this quote: "Publicly Nawaz won't admit it but privately PML-N people say it was a mistake to make the death sentence mandatory for blasphemers in 92."
 
An interesting article in the guardian about some of the disgusting responses to this heinous and barbaric crime:

How Pakistan responded to Salman Taseer's assassination

Minutes after the murder of the governor of Pakistan's Punjab province Salman Taseer I saw a veteran Urdu columnist on a news channel. He was being what, in breaking news jargon, is called a "presenter's friend". "It is sad of course that this has happened but . . ."

I watched in the desperate hope that he wouldn't go into the ifs and buts of a brutal murder in the middle of Pakistan's capital. By this time we knew that Governor Taseer had been shot dead by a man in police uniform, probably one of his own police guards. The news ticker on screen informed us that the postmortem was under way. Later we would find out that he took 27 bullets. Not a single shot was fired by his security detail. It seemed too early for analysis, but the presenter's friend looked mildly smug, as if he had been mulling over arguments in his head long before the governor was shot. Although it wasn't required, the presenter egged him on. "But you see these are sensitive matters. He should have watched his words. He shouldn't have spoken so carelessly."

What were the late governor's words? I knew about his outspoken stance on the case of Asia Bibi, a Christian woman sentenced to death in a blasphemy case. In a village near Lahore, she served water to some Muslim women who refused to drink it from her glass. (This is quite a common expression of prejudice against lower-caste Christians in Pakistan.) They argued. A couple of days later, the village mullah filed a case saying she had insulted our Prophet.

I knew about his habit of making fun of his political foes, mostly through Twitter. But I still wanted to find out what his exact words were. If a billionaire who is also a governor and enjoys the highest level of security imaginable in Pakistan, can be shot for saying something, it's in everyone's interest to find out what those words were. I mean what if you were to utter those words by mistake?

The presenter chipped in helpfully. "Yes, he did call our blasphemy law a black law." Thoughtfully, the presenter's friend nodded his head in agreement.

Murder solved.

Only last month I had followed another blasphemy case. A pharmaceutical salesman walked into a well respected paediatrician's clinic in the city of Hyderabad and tried to sell him his company's medicines. The good doctor was in a bad mood. He tossed the salesman's visiting card in the bin. The very next day the salesman got together some local religious party activists and got a blasphemy case registered against the doctor.

How did the wily salesman manage to achieve that?

You see, Mohammed was part of salesman's name, as it is with half the male population of this country, including this scribe. So if you toss away a piece of paper with the word Mohammed written on it, you are obviously committing a blasphemy against our beloved Prophet. And there is a law against that in this country, introduced by Pakistan's military dictator and part-architect of the global jihad industry, General Ziaul Haq. The law is popularly known as the Namoos-e-Risalat Act; the law to protect the honour of the Prophet, and there is only one punishment: death by hanging. A number of non-Muslims as well as Muslims have been awarded this punishment, but nobody has actually been hanged yet. Higher courts usually overturn the punishment. In many cases a mob, or motivated gunmen, have carried out the punishment themselves.

Taseer had obviously not committed any blasphemy against the Holy Prophet or any namesake of his. As coverage progresses, politicians and pundits lectured the dead governor about the importance of choosing one's words carefully and respecting the sensitivities of one's fellow Muslims, especially if one lives in a Muslim country. A couple of liberal TV journalists almost stumbled over their words trying to explain that the governor had never committed any act that could be called blasphemous, he had only criticised a law. It is a man-made law, we were reminded by an occasional sensible voice. And the governor only criticised that man-made law, "because no true Muslim," every single politician, journalist, pundit was at pains to point out, "can even think of committing blasphemy against the Holy Prophet." As if it were a proven fact that all non-Muslims have nothing better to do than thinking of devious ways of maligning our Holy Prophet's name. They were careful to add "may peace be upon him" every time the name was mentioned. Some of them offered to sacrifice their own lives to protect the honour of our Holy Prophet.

It sickened me to think that the honour of the Prophet of the second largest religion in the world needed protection from these people. And then it occurred to me that they were actually sending secret signals to any would be killers that said, "Look we speak the same language, we are not blasphemers like that governor guy. We watch our words. We know about the sensitivities of our Muslim brothers. In fact we are as sensitive as you are."

Taseer's body was still in the morgue when I started to find out more about the sensitivities of our people. Whereas most people rushed home and sat glued to their TVs, probably agreeing or disagreeing with those TV presenters, many of those interviewed at random seemed to approve. "Well, murder is wrong, but he did say bad things about our Prophet," one man said. Another claimed that if he had got a chance he would do the same thing. When asked how they knew that Taseer had committed blasphemy, they just shrugged as if saying they just knew. As if they had decided that he just seemed like the kind of guy who would do something like this.

Even before Taseer was given a burial, his killer had become a hero of sorts. Constable Mumtaz Qadri belonged to Punjab's Elite Force, a police force usually deployed to provide security to VIPs. And although he had acted alone, at least some of his colleagues knew that he was planning to assassinate the governor. He had made them promise that they wouldn't shoot him in the act. Hence, after pumping 27 bullets into the governor's body, he calmly handed himself over to his colleagues who had apparently kept their promise. They tied his hands and legs with a nylon rope and took him away. By the evening, Qadri's picture had replaced a thousand profile pictures on Facebook. He was a mujahid, a lion, a true hero of Islam. We wish there were more of him.

Little is known about Qadri at this stage, except that he attended pro-blasphemy law rallies and was considered a bit of a religious nut. His name tells us that he wasn't born into the kind of family where lessons of jihad are served with school meals. Qadris are a subsect of Barelvi Sunni Muslims, who were traditionally more likely to enjoy Qawwali music and distributing rice pudding to celebrate their spirituality. Pakistan has seen so much sectarian strife over the last two decades that no single group is now above the fray. Last year, a wave of suicide bombings across the country targeted Sufi shrines, the places millions of Pakistanis have traditionally preferred to mosques. Now the devotees of these shrines publicly pledge to save them through an armed struggle. But when it comes to the honour of our Holy Prophet the devotees of these shrines and those who consider this whole shrine thing a big bad blasphemy, all come together. And everyone else stays silent or applauds them on Facebook.

So who are these people who lionise the cold-blooded murderer? Your regular kids, really. Some Pakistani bloggers have tried to get these fan pages banned for inciting hate. But as soon as one shuts down, another five crop up. Those who have trawled the profiles of these supporters have said that they have MBA degrees, they follow Premier League football, they love the Pirates of the Caribbean films. Miley Cyrus figures on lots of these pages. And as the Pakistani blogger who blogs under the name **** Kawa pointed out: "If you go through the profiles of Qadri supporters on Facebook, you'd think Justin Bieber was the cause of extremism in Pakistan."

Many of Taseer's Twitter followers were retweeting his old messages full of courage, humour and, above all, his humanity, his decision to stand with Pakistan's most powerless citizen, a poor non-Muslim woman languishing in a death cell. In one of his messages, he had said that he'd not bow down even if he was the last man standing. Only eight hours before his assassination, he tweeted an Urdu couplet by Shakeel Badayuni featured and translated by a Pakistani media blog Cafe Pyala:

"My resolve is so strong that I do not fear the flames from without

I fear only the radiance of the flowers, that it might burn my garden down."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/06/pakistan-salman-taseer-assassination
 
and here we go with the drama queen secularists again..look open your ears for a few moments and youll understand why the reaction is such..Im not condoning it but one does need to explain it and understand it..instead of jumping up and down like monkeys maybe some of you should stop look and listen..this is the problem with both types of extremists, neither side is willing to listen anymore..your either a bearded fanatic mullah terrorist or a debauched zinai harami sharabi..the middle ground is silent..but there is a tussle over who is the middle ground too..

Roshan khayali types say the middle are secular in mind and deed but quiet in action..otehrs say the middle are actually conservative maybe not great Muslims but not extremists or hardcore secularists either..they like a bit of entertainment etc love their country and deen but may not be ultra practicing but would at the same time want to live with honour,rozi,justice..!! My take is on the latter rather than the former...that is the key area here..

so coming to the question of why so many people are not too fussed about Taseers murder..
now if Eidhi was shot I can guarantee there would be an outcry..but unfortunatley Taseer represents a class that care not a jot for anybody in Pakistan but themselves..I deplore and condemn his killing and Qadri should be hanged..

However one must look into the reaction and explain it or you will be lost for good..

the explanation is simple enough...my fear is we are heading for a bloody revolution and upheaval because the masses no longer care anymore..the elite who are seen as western secular debauched are now seen as legitimate targets by most people..the secualr elite have failed to address the core issues that define a normal paksitanis life...and im not talking about the 10-15% of the urban middle classes, im talking about teh 80% of ghareeb aadmi who just wants a normal life..these people arent religious but they are not secular either..they just want justice,roti,rozi,izzat..nothing else..

also Id like to comment on the people on here who are calling some of us UK based PPers ghettoised, erm wake up..Muslims are highly politicised in britain and know exactly what is going on..we have a dynamic community that is beginning to make major inroads in the culture and politics of the UK..some negative alot of positives..and many of us have a varied perspective when it comes to Pakistan...Ill sum it up with a response from a relative in pakistan..(this relative by the way is a middle class individual, senior citizen who barely makes it through the day because of inflation,security etc) and it was quite depressing what they said " one down, many more to go"....I was not surprised but merely silenced..
 
I am still confused. Is the vast majority of Paksitan supporting the killer because he killed:

a) a man whose life style they hated
b) he was trying to get Aasia Bibi released or
c) he was opposed to the law itself
 
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I am still confused. Is the vast majority of Paksitan supporting the killer because he killed:

a) a man whose life style they hated
b) he was trying to get Aasia Bibi released or
c) he was opposed to the law itself

I dont think the majority support it..a vocal minority do but most people are indifferent to it and dont care..that is what is getting to alot of liberals..if asked on the street most Pakistanis are just shrugging their shoulders and saying "well he must have said something etc etc"....Pakistanis care little for their politicians and most would like to see them dead or hanged hence why the response!
 
My mom really liked your posts on PP and was planning to follow yo on twitter...but after reading this she has lost all hope from PP...

Well, I'm sorry to disappoint her, but I am really shocked that she doesn't find anything scary about serving policemen cheering a sitting governor's assassination. How can a mother feel safe with such policemen on the streets?
 
Most people in Pakistan don't care because they don't know what it feels like be an isolated minority in a dangerous socio-political enviroment. Most NRP's seem to care because this whole oh well he criticised the law and deservingly got butchered in the broad daylight sends shivers down their spine. Living in the West none of us should have an iota of appreciation for such disgusting mentality but some of also like to be dirty little hypocrites in the name of Islam.
 
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I am still confused. Is the vast majority of Paksitan supporting the killer because he killed:

a) a man whose life style they hated
b) he was trying to get Aasia Bibi released or
c) he was opposed to the law itself

I think the answer is all of the above, but the impact of a) is probably understated. Also, there are many people who (falsely) believe that he actually said something blasphemous himself, so you can add that as option d).
 
SK bhai I think has explained it perfectly, at least in my case:

The mainstream majority are rationalising the issue very easily, it seems - they consider Taseer's life and the events leading up to his death, and they see a series of actions and behaviours that they consider vile - they contrast that with his murderer's life and action, and they see a man acting for the 'greater good' and in fact, sacrificing his life and his freedom for it. In their appraisal, its easy to know whom to support, or at least, whom not to support. They might not be joining the murderer's FB page, but they are certainly quite sanguine and even relieved at the event, and ambivalent on the whole issue.

Whilst vigilante justice is IMHO always condemnable and wrong, it is nonetheless instructive to understand the reasons and the drivers which lead to it, in particular where it has wide public support, as in this instance.

main difference being that I think his murder was still very, very wrong.
 
Well, I'm sorry to disappoint her, but I am really shocked that she doesn't find anything scary about serving policemen cheering a sitting governor's assassination. How can a mother feel safe with such policemen on the streets?

Well she was an educationist for 20 years in one of the the most uptight school in Karachi and believe me she has seen worse but she cannot tolerate people saying stuff about Islam..and she has a golden saying that 'One should be scared of oneself rather than a mingling crowd'
 
Salman Taseer has died

Inna Lillahi Wa Inna Illahi Rajiyoon

According to the laws of the land, the MURDERER is to be tried and given a punishment as prescribed by the law.

These are facts.

Everything else is perception and based upon "liberal" or "conservative" agenda.

You can talk to 5 people who will condemn this and another 5 who will condone it, followed by a few who will simply say that one MORE murder means nothing.

The foriegn press would like to make this into a story which will help them sell "Pakistan is being Talbanized" story so I would read their "analysis" with a pinch of salt.

I belong to the "Muslim" camp and this is what my PERSONAL view:

1. Blasphemy is exactly what it is - it needs to be judged by ALLAH on day of Akhirah.

2. Openly Abusing a living or a dead person - religious or not - is libellous. It requires special laws in the case of religious personalities and should be applicable to institutions or public peronalities - not on individuals. Thus one man shouting abuse about the Holy Prophet PBUH at a bus stop in Landhi is not the same as The Dawn printing an editorial abusing the Prophet PBUH

3. Murderers should be caught, tried and punished.
 
Well she was an educationist for 20 years in one of the the most uptight school in Karachi and believe me she has seen worse but she cannot tolerate people saying stuff about Islam..and she has a golden saying that 'One should be scared of oneself rather than a mingling crowd'

In her school? And she's okay with it?
 
Now this is scary i didnt expect a Qadri to indulge in such an act as normally Brelivi group is peace loving umlike Talibs , However Salman Taseer wasnt an angel either
 
I think you're right - but I would like to elaborate a bit on your point, if I may. An overwhelming majority of Pakistanis today would be in the camp where they may not celebrate his death, but certainly do not mourn it either - that's certainly my position. I think his murder was wrong and condemnable, and the killer should be properly and swiftly punished by law, but more than that - not really.

In reality, this case shows very clearly that there are three broad camps in Pakistan. The TTP religious extremists on one hand, who are killing and murdering through bomb blasts; the liberal extremists on the other hand, who are also killing and murdering with impunity, whether in Swat, in Lal Masjid, in FATA, in Wana, or in other similar instances, whether through army actions, through CIA black-ops etc, or through drones. And then there is the great majority of Pakistanis in the middle.

Sadly, most discourse is dominated by the two extremes. The TTP and their affiliated terrorists would not have more than 1 or 2% support in Pakistan (if that!), yet the media gives their people prominence as if they speak for every religious or practising Muslim in the country!

Similarly, the extreme liberal and secular elite, the Western educated or trained uber-rich who run many of the English websites, newspapers and TV programmes etc etc, would not be more than 1 or 2% of the population, but as they are the elite, they control most things (at least financially) and get affronted whenever their control or hegemony is thwarted or threatened. Where they don't have actual control (for instance in legal and religious matters), they at the very least control the public discourse and the debate.

Both these extremes are as bad as the other, and have grown stronger and more entrenched as a reaction to each other. The great majority are neither at these liberal extremes nor at these religious extremes. The majority is mostly conservative, believes in Islam and an Islamic society (often, hypocritically so), and certainly does not believe in violence to murder innocents, whether in Lahore, FATA, Swat or Karachi. They might not all be overtly religious, or all follow Islam as a way of life, or practice many Islamic acts; but their mindset and their outlook is mostly very conservative, and that conservatism mostly grows out of Islam. Some of them might also be hypocritical, so there will be those who might do the very things they condemn or disapprove in others, but mostly, in their minds, even these people would have a clear view of "right" and "wrong", and even when indulging in pastimes they would categorise as "wrong", they often manage to stay on the moral high horse and maintain a sense of self-righteousness.

This majority might vote for the PPP, PMLs, even the MQM or the ANP - many of whom are "secular" parties and/or politicians, but for these people in the middle, their vote does not define them or their lifestyles. They remain conservative in outlook and practice, which is why even the great secular hope Musharraf, or many of a similar outlook in the higher echelons of the MQM / ANP / PPP [and the current Army high command], are relatively powerless to achieve most of their secular objectives. Not because they are scared of the 1% who support the TTP and the other 1% who support JI / JUI-F etc - but because they know the majority won't stand for it, even their own voters and constituencies.

Hence two of the shrewdest and smartest political operators in the PPP, Babar Awan and Jamshed Dasti, two people who are incidentally amongst the closest to the President and the PM respectively, came out very strongly and even vehemently against Taseer et al's views on the blasphemy issue right at the outset - because they know which way their bread is buttered, they know what their electorate wants and cannot stand and they are politicians. [As an aside, it was ironic that these two alongwith Taseer are also amongst most ill-reputed and even odious members of the current government, but I guess that probably explains why they are given such importance by their respective patrons!]

The subsequent and wrong murder of Taseer was actually a reaction from this "great majority". The liberal extremists [just like their religious counter-parts] sometimes go too far in their desire to subjugate the thoughts, the social mores and the laws of the rest of the country, and this issue was one of those. If one notes the names and the organisations of the hitherto unknown people who have come out vocally and forcefully in support of the murder and the murderer, and have refused to pray for Taseer and condemned him - they are those who hate the TTP ideology and people, and in fact, they are the very people who were previously described as "moderate" and "mainstream".

Often, the liberal extremists would extol the virtues of this type of "Barelvi" Islam and of its adherents, and give them great prestige - personally I am not a Barelvi and disagree strongly with their theology, but one has to acknowledge that the involvement of our Barelvi brothers in terrorist violence and bloodshed in recent years has been minimal, almost non-existent. They have been often been a victim of TTP terrorism sadly, but not the instigators.

The point that many of us are now missing is that its not the TTP or some other fringe terrorist who has committed this murder. Its a mainstream Muslim who is apparently not part of any extreme organisation. Hence, the surprising (to me, at least) great public support for the murderer, or at least, tacit approval now. Even those who are out on the streets burning tyres at this murder, ie the PPP die-hards and the paid political mischief-makers, are primarily doing so out of political motives to score points off the current Punjab govt. - hence the recent comments from Awan and others in the PPP hierarchy giving political connotations to the murder as opposed to religious or societal ones.

The mainstream majority are rationalising the issue very easily, it seems - they consider Taseer's life and the events leading up to his death, and they see a series of actions and behaviours that they consider vile - they contrast that with his murderer's life and action, and they see a man acting for the 'greater good' and in fact, sacrificing his life and his freedom for it. In their appraisal, its easy to know whom to support, or at least, whom not to support. They might not be joining the murderer's FB page, but they are certainly quite sanguine and even relieved at the event, and ambivalent on the whole issue.

Whilst vigilante justice is IMHO always condemnable and wrong, it is nonetheless instructive to understand the reasons and the drivers which lead to it, in particular where it has wide public support, as in this instance.

Fantastic post
 
In her school? And she's okay with it?

she took a stand and they forced her to resign because for her service tenure otherwise she wold have been fired if not for 20 years given to the school.

The big wigs rule their with a mighty hand (which are the parents most of the time)

She started following PP before i became a member here bt some of the posters jst started to dgst her and then according ot her 'PP became a cash cow for some so controversial topics were created.'

She says (and i laugh at her statement) that PP reminds her of Orwell's 1948 and in case when Merc was a Mod 'Animal Farm'
 
she took a stand and they forced her to resign because for her service tenure otherwise she wold have been fired if not for 20 years given to the school.

The big wigs rule their with a mighty hand (which are the parents most of the time)

She started following PP before i became a member here bt some of the posters jst started to dgst her and then according ot her 'PP became a cash cow for some so controversial topics were created.'

She says (and i laugh at her statement) that PP reminds her of Orwell's 1948 and in case when Merc was a Mod 'Animal Farm'

I have no idea what you're talking about. What exactly happened at her school that she took a stand against? And what does that have to do with policemen turning into assassins, or PakPassion pre or post Merc?
 
Well, I'm sorry to disappoint her, but I am really shocked that she doesn't find anything scary about serving policemen cheering a sitting governor's assassination. How can a mother feel safe with such policemen on the streets?

How can any foreigner visit Pakistan without the fear of being shot dead by a policeman?
 
How can any foreigner visit Pakistan without the fear of being shot dead by a policeman?

You're right - visiting Pakistan is not for the faint-hearted and we are not making it any easier.
 
if there was a 10% chance of teams visiting Pakistan in the future now it's completely gone. Assassination of a political figure + overall attitude by the public, police and others is quite shocking and barbaric.

This would drastically have an effect on investments by foreign companies. Foreigners visiting Pakistan will always be fearful of being accused of blasphemy in case there is some confusion in the translation or if they mistakenly say something offending the local people.

The fact that people are vociferously supporting death to someone standing up against this blasphemy law is extremely scary thought. How can you justify murder of another human being if he supports a diff side to the argument?

Not to mention the double standards....people were condemning Fb few months ago and those same people celebrating Taseer's death on Fb
 
How can you justify murder of another human being if he supports a diff side to the argument?

Not to be cynical here, but isn't that what has happened throughout the history of man, aren't wars being fought over more or less the same reason as the other supports a diff side to the argument/issue/religion/dispute.
 
In reality, this case shows very clearly that there are three broad camps in Pakistan. The TTP religious extremists on one hand, who are killing and murdering through bomb blasts; the liberal extremists on the other hand, who are also killing and murdering with impunity, whether in Swat, in Lal Masjid, in FATA, in Wana, or in other similar instances, whether through army actions, through CIA black-ops etc, or through drones. And then there is the great majority of Pakistanis in the middle.
Don't really agree with your broad generalizations here. Who are these 'liberal extremists' that are killing people? Are you referring to the Pakistan Army?
 
Don't really agree with your broad generalizations here. Who are these 'liberal extremists' that are killing people? Are you referring to the Pakistan Army?

Well yes that's what he is saying, the state run institutions under the command of US.
 
Pakistanis care little
That's really the essence of your post. Doesn't matter if it's a politician or philanthropist. I don't remember many people caring when a personality such as Hakim Mohammad Saeed was murdered in broad daylight. Or the very sensible Aalim - I'm blanking on his name - who led prayers at Khalid Masjid in Cavalry Ground, Lahore. What's happening with the case of the Sialkot boys. Who's caring about the murder of the brave police chief in Peshawar who knowing that his life was under threat still went after the terrorists?
 
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Don't really agree with your broad generalizations here. Who are these 'liberal extremists' that are killing people? Are you referring to the Pakistan Army?

I presume Policy makers/advisers that you do not necessarily see in the foreground....
 
That's really the essence of your post. Doesn't matter if it's a politician or philanthropist. I don't remember many people caring when a personality such as Hakim Mohammad Saeed was murdered in broad daylight. Or the very sensible Aalim - I'm blanking on his name - who led prayers at Khalid Masjid in Cavalry Ground, Lahore. What's happening with the case of the Sialkot boys. Who's caring about the murder of the brave police chief in Peshawar who knowing that his life was under threat still went after the terrorists?

Ofcourse people care... perhaps they are de-sensitized and to an extent you need to be otherwise you would go crazy constantly thinking about all that is wrong....!!
 
:facepalm:

You should really pause and think before writing

I thought enough l before putting it in black and white. It is a trust you place on policemen who are there to protect you. Job comes first before your beliefs during duty time.
 
I thought enough l before putting it in black and white. It is a trust you place on policemen who are there to protect you. Job comes first before your beliefs during duty time.

This is not a "Pakistani" thing.

1. Anwar Sadat - Egypt
2. Indira Gandhi - India
 
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This is not a "Pakistani" thing.

1. Anwar Sadat - Egypt
2. Indira Gandhi - India

But MIG, here Rehman Malik, Pakistan's Interior minister has been quoted as saying he will shoot a blasphemer. This is ridiculous!! The killer was garlanded for pete's sake.

Rehman Malik has got to go. How can a sitting minister himself show no regard for the legal process??

Did he really say this?? I read it here somewhere on PP....
 
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But MIG, here Rehman Malik, Pakistan's Interior minister has been quoted as saying he will shoot a blasphemer. This is ridiculous!! The killer was garlanded for pete's sake.

Rehman Malik has got to go. How can a sitting minister himself show no regard for the legal process??

Did he really say this?? I read it here somewhere on PP....
He did say it. According to the New York Times:
Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureishi avoided all comment and merely expressed his condolences to the family when approached by journalists. The Interior Minister, Rehman Malik, went as far as to say he would shoot any blasphemer himself.
 
But MIG, here Rehman Malik, Pakistan's Interior minister has been quoted as saying he will shoot a blasphemer. This is ridiculous!! The killer was garlanded for pete's sake.

Rehman Malik has got to go. How can a sitting minister himself show no regard for the legal process??

Did he really say this?? I read it here somewhere on PP....

True - Rehman Malik and his benefactor both need to go but I was just answering a post where people are showing shock and horror at the police shooting someone.

Having said that, Indira's killers are still considered martyrs by some Khalsa people.

I think too much is being made of people celebrating someones death - When Zia was killed, people also distributed mithais then. This is some strange Pakistani affliction.
 
True - Rehman Malik and his benefactor both need to go but I was just answering a post where people are showing shock and horror at the police shooting someone.

Having said that, Indira's killers are still considered martyrs by some Khalsa people.

I think too much is being made of people celebrating someones death - When Zia was killed, people also distributed mithais then. This is some strange Pakistani affliction.

This is different. We can expect a lay man to act however he wants.
This man represents your government. He may feel this way but he certainly shouldn't be saying these things in public.

The police shooting someone has happened in the US too. But I think the president was saved.

The point is that nobody in the government looked like they supported it.

This man is mental!! Even if a man is a blasphemer, the courts in Pakistan have to try him and find him guilty. If the interior minister himself is supporting extra judicial killings then there is something seriously wrong!

This incident was terrible, but the way it has been handled is even worse! Like how did they allow people to garland the accused?? Its absurd! Can you imagine how this photos looks to people around the world?
 
He did say it. According to the New York Times:
Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureishi avoided all comment and merely expressed his condolences to the family when approached by journalists. The Interior Minister, Rehman Malik, went as far as to say he would shoot any blasphemer himself.

In his statements to the press today he said his words were taken out of context, that he would never take the law in his own hands and that he meant to say that he would shoot down a proven blasphemer with a "qanoon ki goli" (as opposed to a bandookh ki goli).
 
" words were taken out of context" - a smart excuse for all politicians
 
The police shooting someone has happened in the US too. But I think the president was saved.

The point is that nobody in the government looked like they supported it.
bhai no one in the government is supporting this murder!! In fact, the govt is calling him a "shaheed" of their party and making huge political capital from it.

Rehman Malik himself spoke yesterday and today condemning the murder and praising Taseer.
Can you imagine how this photos looks to people around the world?

To be honest, that's irrelevant. If something is bad, its bad even if the whole world thinks its ok. And vice versa - if something is good, the world thinking it bad is meaningless.

In this case, glorifying murder is wrong. Full stop. Regardless of whether the world condemns it or condones it.
 
As sanakazmi has posted, its now reported that Rehman Malik has clarified his words and condemned this murder.

I have a feeling that wont be reported by the worlds media though.
 
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Both types of extremists are infact fundamentalists. One patronizes through thought/lifestyle, other one with a gun.
 
I despair at the glorifying of the cold blooded murderer of Salman Taseer.

Some of the posts on here, have been shocking.

As far as the words of Rehman Malik go, this cretin is an embarrassment and needs to go - at worst he approved of murder, at best he used appalling wording, under the circumstances - which displayed a total lack of judgement and sensitivity.

Where is the humanity?
 
As sanakazmi has posted, its now reported that Rehman Malik has clarified his words and condemned this murder.

I have a feeling that wont be reported by the worlds media though.

Malik sahab doesnt think before giving statements. I have heard him on TV, several times, saying the most stupid stuff ever, only to retract it later
 
Ive just had a heated discussion with my dad who supported taseers murder cos he supposedly insulted the prophet. When i pressed him on what did taseer say so wrong my dad said he called the blasphemy law "kaala kanoon"

Apparently that is insulting the prophet! Honestly i despair!
 
Both types of extremists are infact fundamentalists. One patronizes through thought/lifestyle, other one with a gun.
This is such a false dichotomy. One 'extremist' stands up for individual liberties, the other incites violence and kills people. There is ABSOLUTELY ZERO comparison between the two groups.
 
Are there such people as liberal extremists? Yes there are. But people seem to call anyone with any liberal views as liberal extremist, just because that way they can keep pulling the pendulum towards conservatives.
 
Liberal extremists have pushed the Pakistani military and state ti act against its interests.

The average Pakistani hates drone attacks which kill our people without trial and have killed many innocents, the average Pakistani deplores war in our own land for the interests of the USA, hates the fact that the USA has both soldiers and commits act of terror from our own soil against our own population.

Yet all these things occur, the liberal elites are the ones with money and power and they force the Pakistani nation to act against its people and interests, these are the people who support drone attacks, support war in swat, waziristan etc, supported the attack on the Lal Masjid when the ordinary pakistani hates these things.


Because these liberals hate observant muslim and every one with a beard is a Mullah to them they have waged war and forced our nation and military to wage war instead of thinking smart and looking after our interests




The vast majority of the Pakistani population have shown no emotion towards Taseer & dont care about his death, if some one like Edhi dies a honest and good Muslim then there will be pain and anguish across Pakistan.

The aam admi goes without Roti and clean water whilst the liberals drink whiskey and dance around like haraami's, they then force themselves upon Pakistan and act like politicians when they are just thieves
 
whilst the liberals drink whiskey and dance around like haraami's, they then force themselves upon Pakistan and act like politicians when they are just thieves

I am a liberal, I do not drink alcohol...I have never drunk alcohol, I dont dance around "like a haraami" nor am I or my family thieves, every penny that we have earnt is through sheer hard work.

You rant on that liberals genaralise everyone with a beard, what exactly are you doing yourself?

Pathetic post.
 
Look around at the liberal elites in Pakistan they do all these things, look at taseer and his family, friends and other politicians he is connected with.

All corrupt to the hilt, have no understanding of the ordinary Pakistani or emotions our feelings, our beleifs.

Ask yourself this question are you surprised that so many Pakistanis couldn't care less about Taseer and his death, that so many have praised his killer, that so many refuse to even pray for him.


If you are surprised then you are completely disconnected to the ordinary Pakistani and you dont understand that people struggle through life to eat and drink and want there nation and religion respected. They hate drone attacks, the majority are anti-american, anti-indian and wish Pakistan would stand up for itself, they may not be extremists but they are conservative by nature.

You may not drink or dance around to bollywood racks or let your sisters and daughters do that but your views on drone attacks, taliban, U.S, blasphemy, Lal Masjid are OPPOSITE to the views of Pakistan and when people like you try to force there views on Pakistan we have increasing chaos and Pakistan begins to act against its interests.


Do to your liberal views you view that you are in war with extremists and are dragging Pakistan to do your bidding when this has back fired on us in a major way and the average Pakistani has suffered
 
^Right-O so dancing around to "bollywood tracks" is an evil sin according to you.

Okay its at this point that I'm not even going to bother with you, you are welcome to your views of anti this anti that.

Just remember though, you know how you believe in your views very strongly? Well there are a lot of people who believe in opposing views with just as much strength if not more, that is why we need to preach tolerance of all views and not hate.
 
Just remember though, you know how you believe in your views very strongly? Well there are a lot of people who believe in opposing views with just as much strength if not more, that is why we need to preach tolerance of all views and not hate.

Ok I accept that, i may come across as strong and I am firm in my Belvia but forcing someone to do or act against there will causes major problems, so I am all for true/fair tolerance in Pakistan for ALL Pakistanis regardless of back ground.

The problem is that the extremists/liberals are two sides of the same coin they both think they know best and are trying to force MILLIONS of Pakistanis to be, act, think like them OR ELSE.


The extremists wish to force everyone not only to be uber religious but due to ignorance they cant tell the difference between an individual relationship with Allah and the requirements of a religious state. So they force people to act in ways they are not prepared for so they do these things out of fear and not desire. When in reality they should teach and teach and teach and preach so that muslims learn and can make informed choices.


But the liberals are just as worse, westernised, liberal whilst trying to fudge and distort core islamic values trying to force alcohol and other unislamic acts upon Pakistanis, they like america, they want westernisation they want drone attacks they want to destroy the Taliban when the ordinary Pakistan dosent.

For Pakistan to succeed the population dosent need to pick a side it needs to make a stand against both these forces and make sure they understand that the will of Pakistan is not liberal and not extreme.

We want to be taught about islam and we want our children to learn about islam but we dont want people to force feed ideologies which are not familiar to us, we dont want the war on terror, we dont want drone attacks, we dont want invasions of swat and waziristan and we want our country to stand up against america.
 
After Salman Taseer's murder, I'm eerily reminded of the events of Karbala and fear that Muslims are once again headed that way. It would be prudent to remind ourselves at this time that the armies of Yazeed were neither a representation of a secularist nor a flag-bearer for the true Islam during the events of Karbala. Times were fresh after the death of the Prophet (PBUH) and it was not the trend at the time to debate the secular nature of government or society. As such, the two parties pitted against one another were only brought to a head because of extremism and intolerance that made its way through the ranks even in the early days of Islam unfortunately. The inability to listen to others opinions and tolerate other view points led to the blood bath of Karbala. The lust for power and willingness to kill ANY Muslim (not just Ahl-e-Bait) is what brought such deep divisions within the Ummah. It was a battle against extremism which we unfortunately see rage on today.

We are surrounded by extremism and a janooni bukhaar that has unraveled Islamic society. Watching all this hatred and killing in Muslims lands, I wouldn't blame the modern Muslim youth if they were to feel the need to shun their religion and look towards a life of relative prosperity without the tribulations of religion. Islam has been mired with so much blood, anger and hatred that if I were a teenage Muslim growing up in the West, I would be very tempted to move away from Islam. And we cannot blame them. This is what makes me fear that the times are near when being Muslim would require 10 times the amount of faith as compared to years gone by.

Salman Taseer may have done whatever he liked in his personal life, but what we mourn today is the breakdown of respect, order and the loss of humanity. And it is really disturbing to see the stark contrast between Qadri's beard and the grin on his face after having deposited 27 bullets into Taseer's body.

May Allah save this nation from its own inadequacies. Ameen.
 
The problem is that the extremists/liberals are two sides of the same coin they both think they know best and are trying to force MILLIONS of Pakistanis to be, act, think like them OR ELSE.
Your post is laughable really. First of all, liberal is not the same thing as alcohol-drinker, fornicator, party-goer. Please don't lump these together. Secondly, no liberal is out to kill people who oppose their views. The only ones forcing their views are the religious extremists, who have demonstrated with their show of support for Salman Taseer's murderer that they WILL kill those who oppose them, or at the very least support their being killed. No liberal is doing this.

So please, enough of this "two sides of the same coin" nonsense.
 
Your post is laughable really. First of all, liberal is not the same thing as alcohol-drinker, fornicator, party-goer. Please don't lump these together. Secondly, no liberal is out to kill people who oppose their views. The only ones forcing their views are the religious extremists, who have demonstrated with their show of support for Salman Taseer's murderer that they WILL kill those who oppose them, or at the very least support their being killed. No liberal is doing this.

So please, enough of this "two sides of the same coin" nonsense.

Liberals and the liberal elite who hate any observant muslim think they are in a war with extremism (when in fact they are part of it), they are trying to force Pakistan to be like them.

They have the money and they have the influence we are part of the war on terror because of them, they have forced Pakistan to accept drone attacks which slaughter our people without trial, they support war in our land attacks on the lal masjid, or swat or waziristan when these actions have proven to be massively counter productive.

These people love america and wish for it to succeed in afghanistan when that would be disastrous for Pakistan.

These people are causing as much chaos in our land as any extremist.
 
Liberals and the liberal elite who hate any observant muslim think they are in a war with extremism (when in fact they are part of it), they are trying to force Pakistan to be like them.

They have the money and they have the influence we are part of the war on terror because of them, they have forced Pakistan to accept drone attacks which slaughter our people without trial, they support war in our land attacks on the lal masjid, or swat or waziristan when these actions have proven to be massively counter productive.

These people love america and wish for it to succeed in afghanistan when that would be disastrous for Pakistan.

These people are causing as much chaos in our land as any extremist.

But thats not the definition of liberal.
 
now hear me out..this may come as a shock to alot of PP'ers who live in the west..but Pakistan is a naturally conservative country..secularism is an anathema to it..it goes against the grain of everything that is Pakistani..why? because secularism in Pakistan is debauchery, ghunda gurdi, western appeasement, haramzadgi, etc etc..it is seen as a bankrupt philosophy that is perpertrated by western elites who care nothing for the majority of people..

Anyone who denies Pakistan is a naturally conservative country is a fool. And yes, secularism is lambasted here because they consider it as a license to wild life, imagining that seculars are a bunch of people who sell their daughters, sleep with their mothers and marry their sisters. And they do all this while being under the influence of at least 2 bottles of Jack Daniels. Yes, it's true. That is the image of seculars in our country. And wrongfully so.

the majority of people want honour for their family, honour for their deen and an honourable way of making a living...that is all..but they are constantly denied all..their families are not safe, their deen is lambasted constantly by "liberals" and they cant eat anymore!!

This is also true. The first part, that is. This country is not climbing any charts in human rights. But I look at the second part and I am confused. So you're saying that their families are not safe and they can't eat anymore because of the liberals and how they allegedy mock Islam? Please explain to me the connection between the two. I would appreciate it.

now you talk of speaking out..it will do you know good because the masses no longer want to hear secular prattle..they want roti, deen, insaaniyat or insaaf!! give them all of those and it will bring peace and then maybe one will be able to talk about secularism or liberalism in society!

Again, how is that related to what 'liberals' and 'seculars' are saying in this thread? I don't know if I missed any particular post but the gist of those condemning this murder and speaking against religious extremism of this kind is that they do not appreciate the fact that the guy decided to murder someone because the victim didn't agree with his view.

Are you trying to say that those condemning such murders in broad daylight on difference of views are somehow connected to people's lack of roti, deen, insaaniyat and insaf? That once these 'liberals' shut up with their 'secular prattle', people's problems concerning the above mentioned four items will disappear? Your post is doing two things. First, it is trying to justify this extreme action. And second, it is doing what most people in our country are doing today. Which is directing their valid anger at invalid targets.

Unfortunatley Murhoom Taseer represented a detached elite who's liberal lifestyle is against he grain of everything that a normal Pakistani thinks is right...hence why no one is shedding any tears..

I consider myself a liberal and a secular. Even I'm not shedding a tear for him. I don't shed tears on politicians. My personal stand since I heard this news is - these politicians spend so much money on their personal security while providing absolutely no security to the common man, and allow such lawlessness in the country, only for that lawlessness to come bite them in the a*** because someone takes advantage of it to target these politicians themselves.

But this does not mean I support this Qadri guy or what he did. What's wrong is wrong and people should condemn it. What is p!ssing most people off here is that this guy is being taken as a hero and given flower garlands by the educated class of lawyers, while families in their homes are celebrating this as a triumph of Islam over 'liberals' and 'infidels' and 'enemies of Prophet'. Hence, murders in broad daylight are a great idea to serve this religion of peace. This kind of thinking is not only wrong but DANGEROUS for our society. It will have very long term effects which will be very hard to reverse.

of course its sick what happened to him but this happens all the time to innocent people in karachi,fata, sindh, punjab why should they care what happens to him?? solve the masses problems and you these things wont happen..

True. Definitely, there is a lot of frustration in the society. But instead of targetting 'liberals' and 'seculars' for the ills of this society, a more productive approach would be to target the real culprit. Which is lawlessness and corruption. When thought of with a cool mind by both sides, these are commons enemies of both the liberals and conservatives. But by trying to justify this act and telling the people who are condemning this act of extremism to shut up, you are implying that the root cause of all ills of this society is not corruption but secularism or liberalism (ironically both the things that never really got a strong foothold in the Pakistani establishment). You're giving too much power to liberals and seculars in Pakistan, which even a blind person can see, is not the case. Because if it was, then you just contradicted your own first claim in your post - that Pakistan is a conservative society.

I apologize for the long post and let me assure you that my comments aren't all directed at you, per se. But your post is very effective to respond to because it covers many people under a broad spectrum of ideologies here.
 
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Quite simply, in Urdu, secularism is translated as laadeeniyat, no one would accept that. Pakistanis are conservative, but they are not averse to many of the concepts of secularism, one of their main issues is its Urdu translation, which is misleading and wrong, and also the common image that this will lead to a Westernized lifestyle away from Islam.
And Maula Jutt, what insaftak was saying was that people don't care about different concepts or ideologies, they just want security, homes, food, it doesn't matter under what ideology this comes to them. And I agree with him. Look at Zia, I disagree with certain acts of his, such as bringing Islam to the forefront (started by Bhutto, it would have happened without Zia anyways) but he raised the stock of the average Pakistani more than any other leader up till that point, so I support what he did overall. Or Ayub Khan, he vastly improved Pakistan in every respect, even if he wasn't completely democratic. So results matter, not systems and ideologies. That's what insaftak was saying.
 
Anyone who denies Pakistan is a naturally conservative country is a fool. And yes, secularism is lambasted here because they consider it as a license to wild life, imagining that seculars are a bunch of people who sell their daughters, sleep with their mothers and marry their sisters. And they do all this while being under the influence of at least 2 bottles of Jack Daniels. Yes, it's true. That is the image of seculars in our country. And wrongfully so.



This is also true. The first part, that is. This country is not climbing any charts in human rights. But I look at the second part and I am confused. So you're saying that their families are not safe and they can't eat anymore because of the liberals and how they allegedy mock Islam? Please explain to me the connection between the two. I would appreciate it.



Again, how is that related to what 'liberals' and 'seculars' are saying in this thread? I don't know if I missed any particular post but the gist of those condemning this murder and speaking against religious extremism of this kind is that they do not appreciate the fact that the guy decided to murder someone because the victim didn't agree with his view.

Are you trying to say that those condemning such murders in broad daylight on difference of views are somehow connected to people's lack of roti, deen, insaaniyat and insaf? That once these 'liberals' shut up with their 'secular prattle', people's problems concerning the above mentioned four items will disappear? Your post is doing two things. First, it is trying to justify this extreme action. And second, it is doing what most people in our country are doing today. Which is directing their valid anger at invalid targets.



I consider myself a liberal and a secular. Even I'm not shedding a tear for him. I don't shed tears on politicians. My personal stand since I heard this news is - these politicians spend so much money on their personal security while providing absolutely no security to the common man, and allow such lawlessness in the country, only for that lawlessness to come bite them in the a*** because someone takes advantage of it to target these politicians themselves.

But this does not mean I support this Qadri guy or what he did. What's wrong is wrong and people should condemn it. What is p!ssing most people off here is that this guy is being taken as a hero and given flower garlands by the educated class of lawyers, while families in their homes are celebrating this as a triumph of Islam over 'liberals' and 'infidels' and 'enemies of Prophet'. Hence, murders in broad daylight are a great idea to serve this religion of peace. This kind of thinking is not only wrong but DANGEROUS for our society. It will have very long term effects which will be very hard to reverse.



True. Definitely, there is a lot of frustration in the society. But instead of targetting 'liberals' and 'seculars' for the ills of this society, a more productive approach would be to target the real culprit. Which is lawlessness and corruption. When thought of with a cool mind by both sides, these are commons enemies of both the liberals and conservatives. But by trying to justify this act and telling the people who are condemning this act of extremism to shut up, you are implying that the root cause of all ills of this society is not corruption but secularism or liberalism (ironically both the things that never really got a strong foothold in the Pakistani establishment). You're giving too much power to liberals and seculars in Pakistan, which even a blind person can see, is not the case. Because if it was, then you just contradicted your own first claim in your post - that Pakistan is a conservative society.

I apologize for the long post and let me assure you that my comments aren't all directed at you, per se. But your post is very effective to respond to because it covers many people under a broad spectrum of ideologies here.

Great post ! When someone accuses liberal or seculars for imposing their will on the conservative people of Pakistan it makes me wonder, which liberal or secular power in Pakistan are they talking about. To me army is the biggest power in Pakistan and from nowhere can they be called liberals or seculars. In fact its very conservative and religious. What about the judiciary, CJ is certainly not someone who strike me as a secular or liberal. How about politicians, PPP was maybe once secular, now its center to the right. With the exception of the late Salman Taseer and Sherry Rehman who has pretty much been discarded by the party, who is secular. PML-N and PML-Q, Pakistan;s 2nd and 3rd biggest parties, are they seculars. Even MQM who claims to be urban and progressive failed to or were too afraid to take any stand in this whole blasphemy law matter. What about the all powerful media, name me one mainstream media anchor or personality who has come all out against the murder of Taseer or against the blasphemy law. In fact they are the ones responsible for propagating the whole matter and keeping this controversial issue alive fot their ratings.

So I would like to know who are those liberal or secular forces who are supposedly controlling our country. With the exception of a few columnists and maybe one or two newspapers, readership of which is limited anyways....where is this so called liberal/secular force.
 
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PPP was the party that paved the way for religious extremism, and they certainly promoted Islam as a populist tool. I do not remember who it was, but a friend of Bhutto's narrated how he and Bhutto cracked a bottle of Scotch to celebrate the passing the alcohol ban. Maybe they were to an extent during Benazir's time, but apart from that the PPP was never secular, though that is the image promoted in the West.
Anyways, most Pakistanis are neither outright secular, nor outright religious. They are moderates. People are caught up in either secular or religious, they forget that most are moderates, now if they are moderates veering towards religion or moderates veering towards secularism, that varies throughout the country.
 
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Anyone who denies Pakistan is a naturally conservative country is a fool. And yes, secularism is lambasted here because they consider it as a license to wild life, imagining that seculars are a bunch of people who sell their daughters, sleep with their mothers and marry their sisters. And they do all this while being under the influence of at least 2 bottles of Jack Daniels. Yes, it's true. That is the image of seculars in our country. And wrongfully so.

what im saying too..




This is also true. The first part, that is. This country is not climbing any charts in human rights. But I look at the second part and I am confused. So you're saying that their families are not safe and they can't eat anymore because of the liberals and how they allegedy mock Islam? Please explain to me the connection between the two. I would appreciate it.

no im talking about perception...they see the elite like taseer etc living the life be it secular or not and then this same elite first takes away their right of justice through corruption, then their izzat, then they start lambasting the deen in this case the perception of Gustakay Nabboat..im trying to give some context to the generally muted reaction from alot of Pakistanis

Again, how is that related to what 'liberals' and 'seculars' are saying in this thread? I don't know if I missed any particular post but the gist of those condemning this murder and speaking against religious extremism of this kind is that they do not appreciate the fact that the guy decided to murder someone because the victim didn't agree with his view.

youve missed some posts then..this post was also a response to someone questioning why paksitanis were not too upset and actually approving this..



Are you trying to say that those condemning such murders in broad daylight on difference of views are somehow connected to people's lack of roti, deen, insaaniyat and insaf? That once these 'liberals' shut up with their 'secular prattle', people's problems concerning the above mentioned four items will disappear? Your post is doing two things. First, it is trying to justify this extreme action. And second, it is doing what most people in our country are doing today. Which is directing their valid anger at invalid targets.

no im trying to explain what I percieve ,from reading and speaking to individuals , the general viewpoint..from many people..and no im not supporting his actions..dont try to turn things around here as is the norm with some people..


I consider myself a liberal and a secular. Even I'm not shedding a tear for him. I don't shed tears on politicians. My personal stand since I heard this news is - these politicians spend so much money on their personal security while providing absolutely no security to the common man, and allow such lawlessness in the country, only for that lawlessness to come bite them in the a*** because someone takes advantage of it to target these politicians themselves.

But this does not mean I support this Qadri guy or what he did. What's wrong is wrong and people should condemn it. What is p!ssing most people off here is that this guy is being taken as a hero and given flower garlands by the educated class of lawyers, while families in their homes are celebrating this as a triumph of Islam over 'liberals' and 'infidels' and 'enemies of Prophet'. Hence, murders in broad daylight are a great idea to serve this religion of peace. This kind of thinking is not only wrong but DANGEROUS for our society. It will have very long term effects which will be very hard to reverse.


True. Definitely, there is a lot of frustration in the society. But instead of targetting 'liberals' and 'seculars' for the ills of this society, a more productive approach would be to target the real culprit. Which is lawlessness and corruption. When thought of with a cool mind by both sides, these are commons enemies of both the liberals and conservatives. But by trying to justify this act and telling the people who are condemning this act of extremism to shut up, you are implying that the root cause of all ills of this society is not corruption but secularism or liberalism (ironically both the things that never really got a strong foothold in the Pakistani establishment). You're giving too much power to liberals and seculars in Pakistan, which even a blind person can see, is not the case. Because if it was, then you just contradicted your own first claim in your post - that Pakistan is a conservative society.

youve completley mis understood the whole post..and im not gonna explain it line by line..the secular elite do have power and so do rightwing conservatives like qadri..thats just a fact..Taseer and his ilk are responsible for the alot of the lawlessness in our society but thats not because he's secular..however the fact that he was just made it worse..my post is a reflection on perception..


I apologize for the long post and let me assure you that my comments aren't all directed at you, per se. But your post is very effective to respond to because it covers many people under a broad spectrum of ideologies here.

:moyo
 
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