Quest to become 'UK's first female imam'

[Pathan007]

The BBC World Service "I Challenge" series looks at individuals around the world who have challenged authority, traditions and beliefs in the face of enormous odds.



Here, Salma Qureshi, a computer programmer and British Muslim, tells the BBC of her ambition to become one of the UK's first female imams.

Like many young women in their thirties, computer programmer Salma likes shopping, aerobics and yoga.

But her personal mission to be a religious leader poses one of the biggest challenges to the Muslim world today.

"I'm quite religious but at the same time I'm quite a liberal person myself," she says.

"What I'm doing at the moment is something new. Until now there hasn't been a female imam - the imams have always been men.

"They never think about females as imams, and what I'm about to do is very challenging."

Passing on knowledge

Taught by her father, Ms Qureshi had read the Koran by the age of seven.

She said that when she was younger, she could not "differentiate what was religion and what was culture," and that she thought Islam imposed "too many restrictions" on women.

I had a lot of parents coming up to me and they said 'we're really proud of what you're doing, and you are an inspiration to our daughters'

Salma Qureshi

"It's only afterwards I realised that this is all cultural - religion doesn't really stop women doing anything," she added.

"In fact women can do anything that they want providing it doesn't go against the religion."

Ms Qureshi has been a computer and analyst programmer for around 18 years, since graduating in IT.

But a career break led her to spend time exploring her faith, and she enrolled at the Muslim College in Ealing, west London, to do a masters degree in Islamic Studies.

"While I was doing this course they had a diploma course in imamship and I thought 'Oh, this is interesting'," she said.

"I inquired, I said 'Can women come to this course?' and they said 'Yes of course you can come'. And I thought wow, this is great. I got really excited about it because it's the first time that I've heard that women can actually do this."

The course teaches potential imams how to run a mosque, how to give public speaking, and also details the various government offices and agencies they will be in touch with.

Navid Akhtar, a commentator on Britain's Muslim community, explained that because the vast majority of the community is very traditional and has a "quite basic" understanding of Islam, it is "very patriarchal, very tribal" and expects women simply to pray at home.

"So the idea that a woman trains to become an imam or wants to play quite a leading role in the running of a mosque would be a real shock," he said.

"They would see it as a real challenge to their established power base."

Ms Qureshi said that both her husband and brother had reacted by saying "How can a woman be an imam?" when she had told them of her plans.

But she pointed out that Ayesha, wife of the Prophet, had carried out teaching and prayers, "passing on Islamic knowledge and teaching".

"So why can't it be done now?" she added.

'Baby steps'

She also stressed she felt there was a need for this, "because at the moment we don't have leadership amongst women, there's just male imams".

Mr Akhtar, who has met Ms Qureshi on occasions, said that she is someone "who has a real passion for Islam."

But he added that he thought she was worried.

Some UK mosques make little provision for women

He explained that she did not want to be seen as someone going outside the limits of Islam.

"She's taking baby steps," he added.

"She wants to test the water. She doesn't want to rock the boat and she's very cautious of her position. She doesn't want to do anything that will cause a vast amount of offence and then perhaps it would mean that other women can't follow in her footsteps.

"So I think she's very conscious of her role as a pioneer."

Ms Qureshi added that so far she has not had a negative response, but has received a great amount of support and encouragement.

"I had a lot of parents coming up to me and they said 'we're really proud of what you're doing, and you are an inspiration to our daughters'," she added. "I was really surprised that I had younger girls coming up to me, teenagers and younger girls, and they said to me 'You are actually breaking the ice. There's a gap there between male and female and you're trying to fill that up'."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4290960.stm

 

[Pathan007]

now what kind of Muslims would it be to pray after her?

 

[Geordie Ahmed]

now what kind of Muslims would it be to pray after her?

muslim women i imagine

 

[Pathan007]

muslim women i imagine

but she is trying to become an Imam mostly for males rather than females.

 

[Mercenary]

looks like the end of the world

 

[Pathan007]

looks like the end of the world

yea

 

[Mercenary]

The abuse of young children in Madrassahs is brushed under the carpet but this issue is tackled head on! Nice to see we have our priorities right!

 

[Pathan007]

The abuse of young children in Madrassahs is brushed under the carpet but this issue is tackled head on! Nice to see we have our priorities right!

well bro none of us have defended those things. most likely all of us are against what happened in madrassa.i don't c any1 in here coming out defending what happened in madrassa.just as u would hate what happened in there I too have the same gutted feelings. but this is another issue that is happening in the Muslim world.i wonder what has gotten into the heads of these women??????

 

[Aurangzeb]

women can't be imams because men may look at them as sexual objects...right?

 

[waquas_uk]

brainwashed education and media is doing this

 

[tahaqureshi]

This has happened in Toronto Canada already. The excuse these ppl most likely use is, "where in the Quran does it say that women cannot be Imams?" Because fact is, there isnt any clear cut mention as far as I know.

 

[MIG]

Lets assume, for arguments sake, that she becomes an Imam at Regents Park mosque:

Possible consequences:

1. Islam will have no meaning to billions
2. Men will become women
3. Bridges will fall
4. Planes will crash

Dont really think so.....do you ?


Its all about priorities my friends - let her do what she wants to do in the name of ALLAH - let ALLAH judge her alone.

I am not saying that she is right - I think women Imams are not allowed for a reason and we can debate that - but in the overall scheme of things - how important is this?

Regards

MIG

 

[tahaqureshi]

True MIG, like Merc said, we keep a lid on child abuse in Madarssahs but love to hang a woman wanting to be an Imam. I think the sin of men praying behind a woman (if there is one) is not as great as a sin for child molestation (sexually).

 

[alghazzali]

True MIG, like Merc said, we keep a lid on child abuse in Madarssahs but love to hang a woman wanting to be an Imam. I think the sin of men praying behind a woman (if there is one) is not as great as a sin for child molestation (sexually).

]

It's different, one issue is affecting Islamic principles, whereas the other is a case of Law and Order.

Women Imams - This has come about about cos of 'Girl Power', all the Western media BS.

Logically, a woman Imam will have a negative effect on alot of men, as this would increase the chances of mixing freely with the other sex. However if she means as an Imam for the women, then that doesn't/shouldn't cause too much concern, althought in Islam, there is no reference to Women Imams.

 

[Hussain]

its okay if the masjid where she ll lead
is an all woman one

but a big NO NO if men too come and pray in tht mosque

just for an argument's sake .....

where do u think wud be the eyes and brains of the men behind her whn she wud be in 'ruku' ??

it wud be like deliberately bringing some thing else into the ppls minds whn they are praying and thts is ' not allowed'

 

[alghazzali]

its okay if the masjid where she ll lead
is an all woman one

but a big NO NO if men too come and pray in tht mosque

just for an argument's sake .....

where do u think wud be the eyes and brains of the men behind her whn she wud be in 'ruku' ??

it wud be like deliberately bringing some thing else into the ppls minds whn they are praying and thts is ' not allowed'

That is also very sick. To be performing a pure act, with filthy desires.

 

[Mercenary]

So because men cant control themselves, she must be punished for it? If men will be looking at her behind then surely thye will be punished for it by Allah and its not her fault.

If all she wants to do is dispense advice then I dont see why not, after all Aishah was regularly sought for her counsel was she not?

 

[Saeed Anwar-194]

So because men cant control themselves, she must be punished for it? If men will be looking at her behind then surely thye will be punished for it by Allah and its not her fault.

If all she wants to do is dispense advice then I dont see why not, after all Aishah was regularly sought for her counsel was she not?

You comparing her to hazrat Aisha(Radi Ala Anha)?
This woman needs advice what advice she can give to others well merc if you want her as Imam then good for you but in Islam women should pray alone or with women but not lead men and it is clear as that.
I remember a hadith of Hazrat Aisha(ra) that if the Prophet(Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) saw the state of women today he wont let them go to masjid.
That was 1400yrs ago look at women today you say it is ok for them, why create a situation where men will commit sin we dont need women as imam its like we want to follow in the footsteps of Christians they have women priests now muslim liberals are saying we should have women Imam's.
What next Gay Imams? oh sorry i forgot there is a gay Imam already in canada and South Africa.

 

[flipper]

Hazrat Aisha (ra) was very knowledgable and used to advise the people. But I understand that she always spoke behind a veil and there was always some kind of barrier between herself and another person. Allah knows best.

 

[Pathan007]

it's also HARAM to pray behind a woman bcz our Imam told us. and there is a Hadees about it. click here http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=14304

 

[Cartman]

I think she is going overboard with this one.. Maybe she should try skydiving or bungee jumping or something. I dunno.. anything.. anything but this... man!

 

[Mercenary]

sa194. i meant if Aisha as a woman of knowledge could be sought for advice then why shouldnt any other woman with sufficient training and knowledge be allowed to give out advice as well?

 

[Saeed Anwar-194]

sa194. i meant if Aisha as a woman of knowledge could be sought for advice then why shouldnt any other woman with sufficient training and knowledge be allowed to give out advice as well?

Please refer with respect say Hazrat Aisha(Radi Ala Anha) or put (ra) she is Mother of Believers dont say just Aisha.
is this woman knowlegable? if she is then its ok if you cant find no men but my point is regarding leading men in prayer which a women should not do.

 

[Pathan007]

yes Mercenary bro. whenever u r talking about Sahabas plz refer as (RA) bcz we should have the utmost respect for them. and they were really great ppl and we cannot reach their standard.

 

[alybaba]

THEY WERE HUMAN

THEREFORE THEY HAD THEIR FAILINGS AS WELL

DO YOU THINK OTHER VIEWS OF AISHA, WHICH ARE NEGATIVE, CAME OUT OF THIN AIR? YOU DON'T THINK THEY PLAYED THE POLITICS OF POWER AFTER PROPHET'S DEATH?

No human is perfectly pious.

think people think, for the sake of humanity please use your brains

 

[Pathan007]

THEY WERE HUMAN

THEREFORE THEY HAD THEIR FAILINGS AS WELL

DO YOU THINK OTHER VIEWS OF AISHA, WHICH ARE NEGATIVE, CAME OUT OF THIN AIR? YOU DON'T THINK THEY PLAYED THE POLITICS OF POWER AFTER PROPHET'S DEATH?

No human is perfectly pious.

think people think, for the sake of humanity please use your brains

they were not like U AND ME. THEY WEREN'T CORRUPTED AS WE R. their PRAYERS were not like ours. their BEHAVIOURS WERE NOT like ours. get it. i know human being does commit mistakes. but PLZ don't compare them to your and myself.we r not comparable to them. THANK U. JAZAK ALLAH

 

[Mercenary]

yes Mercenary bro. whenever u r talking about Sahabas plz refer as (RA) bcz we should have the utmost respect for them. and they were really great ppl and we cannot reach their standard.

I used to use abbreviations like 'pbuh' and 'swt' and 'ra' myself but then I realised that nowhere in the Quran are Allah, the Prophets or the Sahabah referred to in such a way.

Even when you read the Sahih books compiled a couple of centuries after the Quran you will find that these abbreviations are not used by Bukhari or Muslim. That is several generations after the Prophet and yet no-one refers to Muhammad or the Sahabah or Allah with those abbreviations. Not even in the Isnad nor the notes are they referred to like that.

Adding these letters is a human innovation where certain scholars have decided that such additions are necessary. I'm not against people using them but neither do i consider that it is something we have to do. At best it's a voluntary thing if anything.

People seem to just follow what you read/hear without thinking or pondering over it. Maybe they should spend less time listening to scholars and mufti's and more time listening to God who tells us in His own words in many places to ponder over the Quran and its meaning!

 

[Toony™®]

wait and see...

there are some sexist remarks on women being assumed. Nowhere have i read that she is going to lead a masjid full of men..besides i doubt that will happen anyhow...

What Hazrat Aisha(ra) did was that she was pioneer in islam and she was outlet for muslim novices/reverts request for advice ..which she gained first hand knowledge from her relative Prophet Muhammad(pbuh). So thats why she was revered. She was a follower of Islamic teachings then.

You comparing her to hazrat Aisha(ra)?
This woman needs advice what advice she can give to others well merc if you want her as Imam then good for you but in Islam women should pray alone or with women but not lead men and it is clear as that.
I remember a hadith of Hazrat Aisha(ra) that if the Prophet(saw) saw the state of women today he wont let them go to masjid.
That was 1400yrs ago look at women today you say it is ok for them, why create a situation where men will commit sin we dont need women as imam its like we want to follow in the footsteps of Christians they have women priests now muslim liberals are saying we should have women Imam's.
What next Gay Imams? oh sorry i forgot there is a gay Imam already in canada and South Africa.

that hadith dont make sense...how can Hazrat Aisha(ra) see the future?

The main lesson since the time of Prophet Adam(pbuh) andallhis children is to learn self control from temptation and other vices..once you have done that..u cracked it.

 

[entralinks]

In our local mosque women come to show off basically, they buy/order a new dress for each and every Jummah. Anyway onwards to the point, I think soon we'll have a child imam, g*y imam, royal imam and beggar imam, all serving their co-existers making the world a nutter place. If in position I would have handed all these men's responsibilities to women and sleep.

 

[razzler]

I am not sure on this but we can pray after a women imam but the only exception is that all the women have to be in the front and then the men. I will check though and I could be wrong though.

 

[Saeed Anwar-194]

She was reffering to her own time after the Prophet(Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) passed away not ours.

 

[Mercenary]

well sa194 and pathan007. Whats your response to my post above on the abbreviations??

 

[tahaqureshi]

Merc, Allah Ta'la says in the Quran, do not call on my Prophet (PBUH) in a high voice. And he says, dont talk to my Prophet (PBUH) by referring him directly as Muhammad. Call him rasulallah, nabi-allah, or habiballah. Not once in the Quran has Allah (SWT) ever directly commanded the Prophet (PBUH) as O Muhammad!. He has used names like Muzammil and Mudassir, these are the beautiful names that Allah has bestowed upon the Holy Prophet. And Allah says do not raise your voice when talking to him.

God has given the Prophet a certain status in the Quran itself and if God has such respect for his servant, then we have atleast the responsibility of giving him more respect?

 

[the Great Khan]

the answer to this is quite simple really..a women can become an alima, she cannot become an Imam of a masjid since it is uneccessary...why you ask..quite simple really because a womens prayer at home is equivalent to a mans in a Masjid..hence women dont need to go to the masajid to Pray..its not an obligation for them and is not as important as it is for men..so its irrelevant a topic and shows a lack of understanding and lack of Islamic logic..so one must ask what is the purpose of this?? quite simple to undermine Islam and create a problem where none exists...its a simple tactic to use feminism, homophobia and rascism to cause problems in society...women can teach men and have but there are certain conditions the main one being segregation...this is my opinion and i satnd by it until someone can prove it wrong..

as for the RA etc next to venerable sahaba and Prophets(pbut or h) whats wron g with it?? is it wrong to show some respect?? would you call your parents by their first names?? i mean its not in the Quraan so hey just say oi to your Mum the next time you see her..its simple Islamic etiquette...it doesnt come under bidah...also i would like to know how those that do not follow the hadith Pray,do vudu, and perform Hajj since they are not in the Quraan either!!!

 

[tahaqureshi]

Allah has saved even the names of the horses, the goats and the camels of the Holy Prophet. The day the Prophet passed away, the camel Asba stopped eating out of sadness and died. Yasoor was the donkey on which the Prophet used to travel and he was so distraught by the Prophet's passing, that he fell into a well and died. Jis Nabi pay jaanvar fida hotay hon, humnay uski zindagi ko aisay talaaq dekay rakhdi. We have not understood the value of the Holy Prophet and his way of life. His entire figure, from head to toe has been completely saved and recorded and is present to date. How his beard looked like, how his eyes were, how his body looked like, how his vein used to pop out on his forehead when he was angry, how his height was medium but whenever he used to stand with someone he used to look taller no matter who it was. the way he used to talk to someone, or look at someone has also been described clearly. He used to show haya infront of Men! He always used to look down. And today's youngster walks with so much pride. His teeth, his cheeks and his eyes have all ben described. When he used to smile, the noor coming out of his teeth would reflect off the walls. And if you dont follow the sunnah of such an azeem hasti, then aren't you going to be following animals then? How far do we expect to go without following the complete lifestyle of the ultimate mortal?

When he was young, he used to lay down at night and the moon would play with him. A man who passed everything, all the heavens, Sidrat-ul-muntaha, everything and reached the closest to God anyone has ever, such a gracious Nabi. And God has said that none has been made such as him, and if we want to go to the darbaar of Allah, then we must completely drown ourselves in the life of the Holy Prophet. Whether it be a general, chaprassi, businessman, contruction worker, the owner of a factory, doesnt matter, everyone MUST get totally invovled in making his life reflect that of the Holy Prophet.

9 of his wives were alive, but he still made his own roti, washed his own clothes, sweeped the floow of his house, he is such a graceful Nabi. Never have we tried to look who he is and what he is all about. We are extremely lucky to be of his Ummat. Hamein Nabi kay saanchay mein dhalna hai. Ask the mountains of Taif how he cried in the searing heat of the Arabian desert for 5 hours and cried for his Ummat to save them from their sins. Such a precious Nabi and today we have totally left his life and we say, "sunnat hai, puri karo to acha hai, na karo to koi baat nahin." How can we be so inconsiderate?? That is the biggest problem of today, we have forgotten what it means to be a Muslim today.

Just pray, just pray. Where we tie our hands is nto something to fight over. How loud or soft we say our ameen is nto something to fight over. Mohabbatein seekho. Ikhtilaaf zaroori hai, rahayga. Laykin inko zinda to karo. And the most important thing is Nabuat vaalay Akhlaaq. Today, the entire Ummat is void of the akhlaaq of Islam. We have forgotten to forgive. Brothers have now become so badakhlaaq. For the sake of a few coins and money, they have broken all ties with each other. Even salam dua is void in their relations. How can the government fix such things? There are only certain things that the govt can do. But akhlaaq HAVE to be made by ourselves. Only when Allah's hukum has total command over our hearts, will we become the true followers of Allah and his Nabi. Maaf karna seekho. Mohabbat karna seekho. Aik doosray kay upar kharch karna seekho. Aik doosray kay gunnah chupana seekhein. Kya sitam hai kishi ki pagri uchalna? Khulay bazaar mein kishi musalman ki izzat ko kuchalna kya sitam hai?
Did you know that insulting a musalman is a bigger sin than insulting the Kabah? In Pakistan, in US, in Europe, in Middle East anywhere if a Muslim raises his finger against the Kabah, he will be immediately swallowed, but in every street and corner today insults and swear words are exchanged with such ease. Our Nabi says teach your children the benefits of forgiveness.

Hum badakhlaaq hogaye. Na beevi kay, na mian kay, na maan kay, na baap kay makaam ka pata. My brothers, on the day of judgement the most heaviest deed will be akhlaaq. Zabaan ko meethay bol say teh kardo. Aisa bolo kay moo say shehed tapkay. Islam kay pehlnay ki bunyaad namaz nahin hai, zakaat nahin hai, infact it is husn-e-akhlaaq. Kiyamat kay din Allah kahay ga, mein bimaar tha laykin tu nay mera haal hi na poocha. Aadmi bolayga, Ya Allah tu kaisay bimaar hosakta hai? Tu to paak zaat. Allah kahay ga, mera falaan falaan banda jo bimaar tha, uska haal agar tu pooch layta, to aisa tha jaisay tu nay mera haal poochliya. Such is the essence of humanity in our religion.

God no more energy. Im just really really angry at all these arguements we have over the most pettiest things. This is not Islam, this is not what Muslims are meant to do. May Allah fix our akhlaaq and make all fo us see the Truth.

 

[the Great Khan]

but but taha..its not in the Quraan so erm its not true??...cmon bro it must be in the Quraan alone dont you know this?? errm yup if its not in the Quraan and even if the Prophet PBUH has emphasised it nope cant be true coz hey "its not in the Quraan"!!!...

 

[alghazzali]

the answer to this is quite simple really..a women can become an alima, she cannot become an Imam of a masjid since it is uneccessary...why you ask..quite simple really because a womens prayer at home is equivalent to a mans in a Masjid..hence women dont need to go to the masajid to Pray..its not an obligation for them and is not as important as it is for men..so its irrelevant a topic and shows a lack of understanding and lack of Islamic logic..so one must ask what is the purpose of this?? quite simple to undermine Islam and create a problem where none exists...its a simple tactic to use feminism, homophobia and rascism to cause problems in society...women can teach men and have but there are certain conditions the main one being segregation...this is my opinion and i satnd by it until someone can prove it wrong..

as for the RA etc next to venerable sahaba and Prophets(pbut or h) whats wron g with it?? is it wrong to show some respect?? would you call your parents by their first names?? i mean its not in the Quraan so hey just say oi to your Mum the next time you see her..its simple Islamic etiquette...it doesnt come under bidah...also i would like to know how those that do not follow the hadith Pray,do vudu, and perform Hajj since they are not in the Quraan either!!!

The thing with Merc is that he takes the Quran in it's literal meaning. Now he asks us with a clean intention(I hope) that we should learn for ourselves and the Allah says the Quran is made easy to understand.

I could interpret that without any knowledge and say yeh it's easy and read it and become a mufti or I can say he has sent us guides in the form of Prophets to "make it easy", hence knowlegde about the Quran passed on to Scholars is from the Prophet - direct or indirect.(intermediaries)

Even the translations are different, so when Merc uses a certain scholar's translation, that is Merc's intermediary. So he contradicts himself. I would really like for you to stop making fatwas.

Merc is very cautious towards sects, yet if we did what he says, then there would be a millions of sects.

He is also giving fatwas(Religious opinions), which should not be mentioned unless approved by the ijma.

 

[tahaqureshi]

I didnt say anything like that GK. Im not of the opinion you think I am. Misunderstanding. I support getting the way of life NOT only from the Quran. I support having ghusl in the way prescribed in the first post.

 

[alghazzali]

Allah has saved even the names of the horses, the goats and the camels of the Holy Prophet. The day the Prophet passed away, the camel Asba stopped eating out of sadness and died. Yasoor was the donkey on which the Prophet used to travel and he was so distraught by the Prophet's passing, that he fell into a well and died. Jis Nabi pay jaanvar fida hotay hon, humnay uski zindagi ko aisay talaaq dekay rakhdi. We have not understood the value of the Holy Prophet and his way of life. His entire figure, from head to toe has been completely saved and recorded and is present to date. How his beard looked like, how his eyes were, how his body looked like, how his vein used to pop out on his forehead when he was angry, how his height was medium but whenever he used to stand with someone he used to look taller no matter who it was. the way he used to talk to someone, or look at someone has also been described clearly. He used to show haya infront of Men! He always used to look down. And today's youngster walks with so much pride. His teeth, his cheeks and his eyes have all ben described. When he used to smile, the noor coming out of his teeth would reflect off the walls. And if you dont follow the sunnah of such an azeem hasti, then aren't you going to be following animals then? How far do we expect to go without following the complete lifestyle of the ultimate mortal?

When he was young, he used to lay down at night and the moon would play with him. A man who passed everything, all the heavens, Sidrat-ul-muntaha, everything and reached the closest to God anyone has ever, such a gracious Nabi. And God has said that none has been made such as him, and if we want to go to the darbaar of Allah, then we must completely drown ourselves in the life of the Holy Prophet. Whether it be a general, chaprassi, businessman, contruction worker, the owner of a factory, doesnt matter, everyone MUST get totally invovled in making his life reflect that of the Holy Prophet.

9 of his wives were alive, but he still made his own roti, washed his own clothes, sweeped the floow of his house, he is such a graceful Nabi. Never have we tried to look who he is and what he is all about. We are extremely lucky to be of his Ummat. Hamein Nabi kay saanchay mein dhalna hai. Ask the mountains of Taif how he cried in the searing heat of the Arabian desert for 5 hours and cried for his Ummat to save them from their sins. Such a precious Nabi and today we have totally left his life and we say, "sunnat hai, puri karo to acha hai, na karo to koi baat nahin." How can we be so inconsiderate?? That is the biggest problem of today, we have forgotten what it means to be a Muslim today.

Just pray, just pray. Where we tie our hands is nto something to fight over. How loud or soft we say our ameen is nto something to fight over. Mohabbatein seekho. Ikhtilaaf zaroori hai, rahayga. Laykin inko zinda to karo. And the most important thing is Nabuat vaalay Akhlaaq. Today, the entire Ummat is void of the akhlaaq of Islam. We have forgotten to forgive. Brothers have now become so badakhlaaq. For the sake of a few coins and money, they have broken all ties with each other. Even salam dua is void in their relations. How can the government fix such things? There are only certain things that the govt can do. But akhlaaq HAVE to be made by ourselves. Only when Allah's hukum has total command over our hearts, will we become the true followers of Allah and his Nabi. Maaf karna seekho. Mohabbat karna seekho. Aik doosray kay upar kharch karna seekho. Aik doosray kay gunnah chupana seekhein. Kya sitam hai kishi ki pagri uchalna? Khulay bazaar mein kishi musalman ki izzat ko kuchalna kya sitam hai?
Did you know that insulting a musalman is a bigger sin than insulting the Kabah? In Pakistan, in US, in Europe, in Middle East anywhere if a Muslim raises his finger against the Kabah, he will be immediately swallowed, but in every street and corner today insults and swear words are exchanged with such ease. Our Nabi says teach your children the benefits of forgiveness.

Hum badakhlaaq hogaye. Na beevi kay, na mian kay, na maan kay, na baap kay makaam ka pata. My brothers, on the day of judgement the most heaviest deed will be akhlaaq. Zabaan ko meethay bol say teh kardo. Aisa bolo kay moo say shehed tapkay. Islam kay pehlnay ki bunyaad namaz nahin hai, zakaat nahin hai, infact it is husn-e-akhlaaq. Kiyamat kay din Allah kahay ga, mein bimaar tha laykin tu nay mera haal hi na poocha. Aadmi bolayga, Ya Allah tu kaisay bimaar hosakta hai? Tu to paak zaat. Allah kahay ga, mera falaan falaan banda jo bimaar tha, uska haal agar tu pooch layta, to aisa tha jaisay tu nay mera haal poochliya. Such is the essence of humanity in our religion.

God no more energy. Im just really really angry at all these arguements we have over the most pettiest things. This is not Islam, this is not what Muslims are meant to do. May Allah fix our akhlaaq and make all fo us see the Truth.

Mashallah, I agree. We are forgetful. Sum ppl on this board don't realise the importance of this, it's mostly ignorance and pride.

 

[the Great Khan]

sorry lads( taha etc)
i was being sarcastic...lol..

to clarify i believe similar to yourselves..

 

[tahaqureshi]

Oh sorry GK, didnt realise it

 

[alghazzali]

Bump. I want Mullah Mercenary to reply to this, and for him to end his fatwas for his own good.

 

[Saeed Anwar-194]

The thing with Merc is that he takes the Quran in it's literal meaning. Now he asks us with a clean intention(I hope) that we should learn for ourselves and the Allah says the Quran is made easy to understand.

I could interpret that without any knowledge and say yeh it's easy and read it and become a mufti or I can say he has sent us guides in the form of Prophets to "make it easy", hence knowlegde about the Quran passed on to Scholars is from the Prophet - direct or indirect.(intermediaries)

Even the translations are different, so when Merc uses a certain scholar's translation, that is Merc's intermediary. So he contradicts himself. I would really like for you to stop making fatwas.

Merc is very cautious towards sects, yet if we did what he says, then there would be a millions of sects.

He is also giving fatwas(Religious opinions), which should not be mentioned unless approved by the ijma.

Well said brother this is my point also, brother Taha very good post bhai Masha'Allah keep it up and also GK bhai aap ki scarasm sometimes confuses us anyway nice points you made bhai.

 

[Mercenary]

Not once in the Quran has Allah (SWT) ever directly commanded the Prophet (PBUH) as O Muhammad!. He has used names like Muzammil and Mudassir, these are the beautiful names that Allah has bestowed upon the Holy Prophet.

Oh really? So Muhammad is never mentioned as Muhammad in the Quran then? Not even once?

003.144

YUSUFALI: Muhammad is no more than a messenger: many Were the messenger that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will ye then Turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah; but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude

033.040

YUSUFALI: Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.

047.002

YUSUFALI: But those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, and believe in the (Revelation) sent down to Muhammad - for it is the Truth from their Lord,- He will remove from them their ills and improve their condition.

048.029

YUSUFALI: Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Gospel is: like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.

I wonder which Quran you read Taha because in my Quran Allah does mention Muhammad by name. In fact he mentions all the major Prophets by name but there isnt a 'PBUH' or an 'AS' within miles of those names!!


The same is true for the Hadith. In the Sahih collections which were supposed to be verbatim dictations of the Hadith as repeated by the narrator, there is no usage anywhere of such terms! So clearly the first few generations never used them!


They are innovations which were introduced by some scholar at some point and then adopted by the mainstream. There is no proof that these terms were used during the time of Bukhari or Muslim who lived over 150 years after the Prophets time!!


Now if you choose to adopt these innovations then I dont have a problem with that as I believe in freedom of belief and practice, I also think this innovation is in fact quite a good one and we should use respectful language and terms when referring to such figures! But in future if you want to come to me and prove something then dont give me false references such as saying Muhammad is never mentioned by name in the Quran!

Merc is very cautious towards sects, yet if we did what he says, then there would be a millions of sects.

There are already sects upon sects and sects within sects within sects. Following scholars isn’t any guarantee of unity and in fact its those scholars who insist that their opinion is the ONLY correct opinion who are the ones responsible for the creation of so many sects. Absolutism will always cause splits and rifts! Without compromise there can never be unity but it takes an open minded person to accept that!

Even the translations are different, so when Merc uses a certain scholar's translation, that is Merc's intermediary. So he contradicts himself. I would really like for you to stop making fatwas.

I totally agree that a translation is in itself an interpretation to some degree but a translation is still a superior source than a scholarly work because a scholarly work is pure opinion. The scholar is unabashedly putting forward his and his sects interpretation of the Quran whilst the interpreter is just trying to translate the text into another language!


Now in the Quran Allah tells us that He chose Arabic as the language of revelation to the Arabs because it was something that they could easily understand! For those who say that the Quran is difficult to understand Allah Himself informs us that it is written in plain Arabic and without any crookedness. IE. Its not designed to be difficult to comprehend.


The Quran is without crookedness…

039.028


YUSUFALI: (It is) a Qur'an in Arabic, without any crookedness (therein): in order that they may guard against Evil.

…in easy to understand plain local dialect (Arabic)…

026.195


YUSUFALI: In the perspicuous Arabic tongue.

…it was revealed in the tongue of the Arabs so they could easily understand it…

043.003


YUSUFALI: We have made it a Qur'an in Arabic, that ye may be able to understand (and learn wisdom).

God constantly repeats himself saying the Quran is easy to understand and that it is sent in local dialect and that it is designed without any crookedness yet still there are those who completely ignore what God says and chase around after scholars instead.


There are those whom would read a Quranic verse which said something like ‘The apple was green’ and then argue that in fact Allah meant the apple was blue because some scholar has ‘explained’ the verse far better than Allah could (Astagfirullah).


Allah recognises those people who will shy away from the Quran and follow alternative interpretations by saying the Quran is ‘too difficult or complicated’ to be understood by them! In fact he has revealed several verses about such people and below is one of those verses…

041.044

YUSUFALI: Had We sent this as a Qur'an (in the language) other than Arabic, they would have said: "Why are not its verses explained in detail? What! (a Book) not in Arabic and (a Messenger an Arab?" Say: "It is a Guide and a Healing to those who believe; and for those who believe not, there is a deafness in their ears, and it is blindness in their (eyes): They are (as it were) being called from a place far distant!"

…I myself have come across many people who say the Quran isn’t explained in detail and that it is too complicated to understand. Allah calls such people deaf and blind! Who am I to disagree with Him??


You are most welcome to follow your scholars and their books but I would prefer to follow my God and His book

 

[Geordie Ahmed]

Merc which site do you get these transalations from????


(BTW i aint questioning them, just want to know for own use)

 

[Mercenary]

click on the reference with each quote and it will take you to the site

 

[Geordie Ahmed]

click on the reference with each quote and it will take you to the site

Oh duh - i shud have known that!

Thanks for that - seems like a canny site like

 

[Mercenary]

yeah. Masha Allah its a good site

 

[Saeed Anwar-194]

This ayah should be enough for us muslims Merc bhai to show respect when we use the name of the Prophet(Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam)

“Allah and his angels send blessings on the Prophet. O you who believe! Send your blessings
on him, and salute him with all respects.” (The Holy Quran 56:33)

We show respect to our elders by not calling them by name we call our non muslim teachers sir and Miss but when it comes to the Prophet(Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) we call him by hes name merc bhai i dont know where you get your proofs from. show me in Hadeeth when the Companions(ra) addressed the Prophet(Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) they said o Muhammad? they mostly said Ya Rasullulah(Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam).
do you call your father by hes name if not then why not?

 

[Cartman]

Gay Imams?

Thats funny. Gay Imam in a Gay Hamam... I really wonder what Mulla says about that! Interesting! So no more women Imams Im guessing, right? I believe if its in the Quran, not much we can do about it. Men and heterosexual men only can be Imams.

 

[Mercenary]

We show respect to our elders by not calling them by name we call our non muslim teachers sir and Miss but when it comes to the Prophet(saw) we call him by hes name merc bhai i dont know where you get your proofs from. show me in Hadeeth when the Companions(ra) addressed the Prophet(saw) they said o Muhammad? they mostly said Ya Rasullulah(saw).
do you call your father by hes name if not then why not?

Perhaps you should go back and read what i wrote. I said that I thought ths was a good innovation. I just pointed out that terms like 'saw' and 'swt' were not used in the early days. And why should I always be the one who brings the proof?

I've noticed that I'm the only one who backs up and references everything i say. the replies are usually just vague. Why dont you find me a Hadith where he is referred to as 'SAW' or find at least one reference to a Sahabah where 'RA' is suffixed to there name and then come and make your case for a change!

 

[Cartman]

As I have said before and shall say it again, its funny how trivial non-issues have wrecked our wonderful din and fanatics keep spiralling down uncontrollably towards more and more conflicts based on minor differences than looking at the big picture.

But I guess we should be more concerned about "Ghusl" and wasting water than the growing case of suicide bombers in our country who destroy mosques!

 

[Pathan007]

there is hadees i can't remember it very well. but more or less the Hadith is about when Rasool(SAW)during the Friday prayer was getting on MINBER. the first step he(SAW) took said AMin. 2nd step Amin. 3rd step Amin. after that the Sahaba Karam(RA) asked ya Rasool-u-Allah(SAW)y did u say amin3 times? and in of these 3 he(SAW) said that Hazrat Jibrael(AS) came to him said that if your name is called and no1 says (SAW)may Allah sends his "Lanat"on him. so Hazoor(SAW) said amin. can any1 here PLZ clarify this hadees and get the whole complete hadees. Jazak Allah

 

[Mercenary]

i've never heard of that hadith. Can you give me a reference and is it from Bukhari, Muslim or some other collection?

I've never seen it used to back up the 'saw' or 'pbuh' debates anywhere and if there really was a Hadith like that surely it would be the first reference mentioned!

 

[evsa]

I have read a hadith which I am unable to produce here but it goes like this - that there a number of people who are cursed and one of those is he who does not recite the salialhualiwasalaam on hearing the prophets name. If I remember correctly this was cited by the prophet (pbuh). I will findf a reference for you.

however on a persoanl note. The Quran is word of Allah. It is not for allah to show the same respect as we as normal mortals need to. Do u not agree.

 

[Saeed Anwar-194]

I've noticed that I'm the only one who backs up and references everything i say. the replies are usually just vague. Why dont you find me a Hadith where he is referred to as 'SAW' or find at least one reference to a Sahabah where 'RA' is suffixed to there name and then come and make your case for a change!

Details For Islam, Iman and Ihsan - 3

TranslationHazrat Anas reported, "The Messenger - of Allah said: None of you has faith until I become dearer to him than his father and his child and. all mankind." (Bukhari)

Can you read (ra) next to the Sahabi name and (saw) next to the Prophet(saw)name in arabic in the hadeeth or you dont accept this?

 

[Saeed Anwar-194]

there is hadees i can't remember it very well. but more or less the Hadith is about when Rasool(SAW)during the Friday prayer was getting on MINBER. the first step he(SAW) took said AMin. 2nd step Amin. 3rd step Amin. after that the Sahaba Karam(RA) asked ya Rasool-u-Allah(SAW)y did u say amin3 times? and in of these 3 he(SAW) said that Hazrat Jibrael(AS) came to him said that if your name is called and no1 says (SAW)may Allah sends his "Lanat"on him. so Hazoor(SAW) said amin. can any1 here PLZ clarify this hadees and get the whole complete hadees. Jazak Allah

Asalamu alaikam i got the full hadeeth but could not get reference from which book it is from when i do will post Insha'Allah.

It is reported by Hazrat Kaab Ibn Ujrah

that once the Holy Prophet [size=+1]

[/size] told everyone to come close to the mimbar, and so we did. When the holy Prophet [size=+1]

[/size] placed his blessed foot on the first step, he said "Ameen". When he raised his blessed foot on to the second step he again said "Ameen", and in the same way again when raised his foot and placed it on the third step, he repeated for the third time "Ameen". On the completion of the sermon and alighting from the mimbar, we asked the prophet [size=+1]

[/size], "Today we heard from you something which we had not heard before". The Holy Prophet [size=+1]

[/size] replied, " The angel Jibrael came before me and said ‘Destruction be to that person who found the month of Ramadhan but failed to attain forgiveness’, so I said "Ameen" and when I went on to the second step he said, ‘Destruction be to that person in who's presence you are mentioned and he does not send salutations upon you’, so I said "Ameen" and when I went onto the third step he said ‘Destruction be to that person whose parents have reached old age and he fails to gain Jannat by serving them’.

I got the reference this is the sanad for the Hadeeth
rawah: al hakim waqala saheeh al sanad al-targeeb waqala al-saqawi rawah ibn hubban fee saqata' wa-saheeh wal-tibrani fee al-kabeer wal-bukhari fee beralwaldeen laho wal-bayeheqi fee a-sha'b wa-ghairahum wa rejalaho saqat wa bast taraqa' wa-rawee al-tirmizi abi hurerah bemaa'na' qa-qala ibn hajar taraqa' kaseera' kama fee al-murqata'
This Hadeeth is in Bukhari,Tirmizi and Al hakim collections of hadeeth.

 

[Mercenary]

sa194. You may not have the reference but can you at least give us the webpage you got this from?

 

[entralinks]

Great care must be taken as to what we assign to a prophet's or a saint's name as many a times its a form of shirk and we don't even know it. However I do not find anything wrong with the 'SAW' or 'RA' at all, instead its weird to even think of it because these are in fact 'prayers', meaning we're asking ALLAH swt to bless or bestow mercy on the person (which i.e. praying is an ibadah itself). It isn't an issue at all, Mercenary just seems to be over-debating here.

 

[Mercenary]

entra i never said I had a problem with people using these suffixes, I just pointed out that they are an innovation. It's others who want to argue that they are not an innovation!

This all started when i was told that I wasnt using the 'correct' suffixes by some people obviously much more pious than myself

There seems to be a certain group of Muslims who are intolerant of any Muslim not following the strict guidelines of their pet scholar. Is it any wonder Muslims are killing each other all over the world when these extremists think there is one way and only one way (their way)!!

 

[Pathan007]

Mercenery brother no1 is more pious than u. but u who don't have enough knowledge on Islam more than muftis or other religious scholars coming here and debating like u know every aspect and meaning of Islam.

 

[Saeed Anwar-194]

entra i never said I had a problem with people using these suffixes, I just pointed out that they are an innovation. It's others who want to argue that they are not an innovation!

This all started when i was told that I wasnt using the 'correct' suffixes by some people obviously much more pious than myself

There seems to be a certain group of Muslims who are intolerant of any Muslim not following the strict guidelines of their pet scholar. Is it any wonder Muslims are killing each other all over the world when these extremists think there is one way and only one way (their way)!!

We said show respect when you mention the names of these great personality is that too much to ask?
And nobody said we are more pious then you only Allah knows who is pious and who is not.
and what is this pet scholar dont like when someone disagrees with you?

 

[Pathan007]

Asalamu alaikam i got the full hadeeth but could not get reference from which book it is from when i do will post Insha'Allah.

It is reported by Hazrat Kaab Ibn Ujrah

that once the Holy Prophet [size=+1]

[/size] told everyone to come close to the mimbar, and so we did. When the holy Prophet [size=+1]

[/size] placed his blessed foot on the first step, he said "Ameen". When he raised his blessed foot on to the second step he again said "Ameen", and in the same way again when raised his foot and placed it on the third step, he repeated for the third time "Ameen". On the completion of the sermon and alighting from the mimbar, we asked the prophet [size=+1]

[/size], "Today we heard from you something which we had not heard before". The Holy Prophet [size=+1]

[/size] replied, " The angel Jibrael came before me and said ‘Destruction be to that person who found the month of Ramadhan but failed to attain forgiveness’, so I said "Ameen" and when I went on to the second step he said, ‘Destruction be to that person in who's presence you are mentioned and he does not send salutations upon you’, so I said "Ameen" and when I went onto the third step he said ‘Destruction be to that person whose parents have reached old age and he fails to gain Jannat by serving them’.

I got the reference this is the sanad for the Hadeeth
rawah: al hakim waqala saheeh al sanad al-targeeb waqala al-saqawi rawah ibn hubban fee saqata' wa-saheeh wal-tibrani fee al-kabeer wal-bukhari fee beralwaldeen laho wal-bayeheqi fee a-sha'b wa-ghairahum wa rejalaho saqat wa bast taraqa' wa-rawee al-tirmizi abi hurerah bemaa'na' qa-qala ibn hajar taraqa' kaseera' kama fee al-murqata'
This Hadeeth is in Bukhari,Tirmizi and Al hakim collections of hadeeth.

Jazak Allah brother for providing the refrence. and i heard this Hadees many times from our local Imam.

 

[entralinks]

entra i never said I had a problem with people using these suffixes, I just pointed out that they are an innovation. It's others who want to argue that they are not an innovation!

This all started when i was told that I wasnt using the 'correct' suffixes by some people obviously much more pious than myself

Oh nahi yaar, no one here thinks of themselves as more pious than others. I read the posts where it all started, no one was that troubled, they just requested you to say them and said 'please' and 'should' kinda things. But still we are smart enough to think of other muslims' emotions and their love for these people obviously and be careful just as we would respect their parents in front of them. I know if you go down deep and look at these things technically of course they are debatable and complex than visible. But for 'normality' sakes we should be referring to them in the most respectful and best way possible. Just to mention for curiosity reasons I believe it instead adds to your own sawaab tally as a prayer which includes asking, remembering, acknowledging and praising ALLAH swt, indirectly and sometimes unknowingly perhaps.

 

[entralinks]

But one thing, strange as it is, as people are very much into saying these SAW and RA, so when someone doesn't say it, it is looked upon as a disrespect. Now thats not good thinking. Its not disrespect, its just a normal way of calling someone. But then sahabas too used to say things like 'My parents be sacrificed on thee O prophet' etc. so its just some people showing love and respect through words and those who don't may well be showing it more with their actions (which is more important). Its not a big issue, a small difference of opinion. An emotion involved, which makes it difficult to resolve.

I personally don't have a problem either way. However that 'kissing fingers and then touching eyes' is kinda :63:.

 

[Saeed Anwar-194]

Have a listen to this talk on the need to avoid opinion on Quran

The Need to Avoid Opinion in the Quran

Respect Part1 Part2 listen to these topics may be all of us might learn something.

 

[Mercenary]

We said show respect when you mention the names of these great personality is that too much to ask?

And how do you know I have no respect for these personalities? Next you will be telling me if I dont refer to the great Pir's as Hadhrat then I am sinning or being disrespectful.

 

[Mercenary]

Have a listen to this talk on the need to avoid opinion on Quran

The Need to Avoid Opinion in the Quran

All you seem to do is post articles or links to somewhere else. You cant seem to explain what you have heard elsewhere yourself.

I think the Quran itself is a bigger authority on how 'easy it is to understand' than any scholar. If a scholar tells me to ignore Allah's words where He repeatedly tells the reader that He designed the Quran in plain language and made it easy to understand.

Then I will definitely ignore someone but its not going tot be my God, i'll leave that to others!

 

[entralinks]

Mercenary have you come across that 'kissing fingers and then touching eyes' phenomena? Makes my day.

But to be honest I can't seem to see it unislamic but still it looks like not very islamic. I'm confused on this one, just for learning purposes tell me how would you argue with someone not to do it, apart from 'it's pointless'. I mean where would you or should one start?

 

[Saeed Anwar-194]

And how do you know I have no respect for these personalities? Next you will be telling me if I dont refer to the great Pir's as Hadhrat then I am sinning or being disrespectful.

Iam not saying you dont have respect but as you would never call your father by hes name likewise please dont write the name of Prohet(Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) and the sahabah(radi ala anhu) without due respect.

 

[Saeed Anwar-194]

All you seem to do is post articles or links to somewhere else. You cant seem to explain what you have heard elsewhere yourself.

I think the Quran itself is a bigger authority on how 'easy it is to understand' than any scholar. If a scholar tells me to ignore Allah's words where He repeatedly tells the reader that He designed the Quran in plain language and made it easy to understand.

Then I will definitely ignore someone but its not going tot be my God, i'll leave that to others!

Before you make any judegement listen to it or are you too arrogant not to listen to anyone else you know it all?

 

[Mercenary]

If i followed every link you and others posted then I wouldnt have any time to eat or sleep. If I go off to listen to a lecture everytime you want to make a point then I may as well ignore you. Why cant you summarise it for me here?

 

[Geordie Ahmed]

Have a listen to this talk on the need to avoid opinion on Quran

The Need to Avoid Opinion in the Quran

Respect Part1Part2 listen to these topics may be all of us might learn something.

I havnt listened to this yet BUT will do - i however want to make one point tho

Why should we avoid having an opinion - wouldnt that make us like sheep then???

 

[Pathan007]

I havnt listened to this yet BUT will do - i however want to make one point tho

Why should we avoid having an opinion - wouldnt that make us like sheep then???

that's bcz we r not that knowledgeable when it comes to Quran. we haven't studied it like Muftis and other scholars have. and nor can we do the exact interpretaion of the meanings.

 

[the_game]

When will we Muslims grow up and leave such nonsense behind?

 

[Pathan007]

When will we Muslims grow up and leave such nonsense behind?

u grow up. that's better

 

[Geordie Ahmed]

When will we Muslims grow up and leave such nonsense behind?

expand further please?

 

[the_game]

expand further please?

A female Imam will not kill all the cows in the world Geordie bhai. Instead of developing ourselves, we sit there and whine why Jews take away all the Nobel prizes! Come on!

 

[Pathan007]

^so becoming a female imam. she would take a noble prize LOL

 

[Geordie Ahmed]

A female Imam will not kill all the cows in the world Geordie bhai. Instead of developing ourselves, we sit there and whine why Jews take away all the Nobel prizes! Come on!

Oh the female Imam - i agree with you - its just that the conversation has went so many different ways i wasnt sure what you was calling nonsense