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Rahul Dravid's performance against the best attacks : A gaping hole in the wall

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Rahul Dravid is popularly known as The Wall, a man who had an impenetrable defence and dogged determination. No doubt he was a fantastic batsman and an Indian great, but he had many chinks in his armour which makes me doubt the sobriquet.

Dravid has been one of the mainstays of the Indian batting lineup, bailed us out from some tough situations and played some matchwinning innings overseas. He was neither the best against the good attacks, nor a bankable man in tough ardous overseas conditions but somehow the perception that Dravid is a better test batsman than Sachin is fixed in the minds of most people. Dravid had a long career from 1996 to 2012 and throught his career, the toughest places to bat were South Africa, Australia, England and Sri Lanka( Excluded New Zealand because they never had a world class attack barring 2002).

Rahul Dravid was highly successful in England, scoring 1376 runs at an average of 68.80 over 4 tours. But he fared poorly in Australia, South Africa and Sri Lanka. He did have success in 2003-04 tour in the absence of Mcgrath and Warne but failed badly in the other 3 tours.

Dravid in Toughest Condition: -
SA (624 runs in 11 matches at 29.71)
AUS(1166 runs in 16 matches at 41.64)
SL(662 runs in 12 matches at 33.71)

The numbers are atrocious in South Africa and Sri Lanka and decent in Sri Lanka. If we take away the 2003-04 series in Australia, he scored 547 runs at 23.78.

This is how Dravid's contemporaries fared in South Africa during 1996-2012.

Tendulkar(959 runs at 50.47 in 11 matches)
Laxman(566 runs at 40.42 in 10 matches)
Ganguly(506 runs at 36.14 in 8 matches)
Dravid(624 runs at 29.71 in 11 matches)
Sehwag(382 runs at 25.46 in 8 matches)

The above list clearly shows how poor Dravid was in SA. Even Ganguly, with all his problems against genuine pace bowling was ahead. (Tendulkar though averages 46.44 overall).

Indian batsman in Sri Lanka(1996-2012)

Sehwag(692 runs at 69.2 in 6 matches)
Tendulkar(952 runs at 63.46 in 9 matches)
Laxman(530 runs at 48.18 in 7 matches)
Ganguly(588 runs at 36.75 in 9 matches)
Dravid(662 runs at 33.1 in 12 matches)

Here also, he ends up at the bottom among the Fav 5.

Indian batsman in Australia (1996-2012)

Tendulkar(1441 runs at 55.42 in 15 matches)
Sehwag(1031 runs at 46.86 in 11 matches)
Laxman(1236 runs at 44.14 in 15 matches)
Dravid(1166 runs at 41.64 in 16 matches)
Ganguly(696 runs at 34.8 in 11 matches)

Stats show that he was decent in Australia but he filled his boots in the 2003-04 series.
His performance in the above 3 countries clearly show that he was not the impenetrable wall as he is often made out to be.

If we combine the stats in these 3 countries, we find that Dravid had 2426 runs at 36.2 in 38 matches whereas Tendulkar leads the way with 3314 runs at 57.13 in 34 matches. Clearly, Tendulkar was head and shoulders above Dravid while Dravid failed against quality attacks. He also had a poor strike rate and found it difficult to score against these relentless attacks.

Dravid's performance against South Africa and Australia is also far from impressive(Excluded Lanka because they are poor travellers while Aus and Sa were the best visitors in India).

This is how Indian batsman fared against Aus and Sa at home: -

Azharuddin(848 runs at 70.66 in 8 matches)
Sehwag(1687 runs at 56.23 in 16 matches)
Sachin(2209 runs at 52.29 in 25 matches)
Laxman(1608 runs at 48.72 in 23 matches)
Dhoni(630 runs at 45.00 in 11 matches)
Gambhir(659 runs at 41.18 in 9 matches)
Dravid(1628 runs at 37 in 27 matches)
Ganguly(1148 runs at 33.76 in 22 matches)

Yet again, Dravid is at the bottom of the list. His average and SR speaks about his struggles against this great sides.

If we combine Aus and Sa both home and away, we find that Sachin has 4571 runs at 53.77 in 50 matches while Dravid has 3369 runs at 37.85 in 52 matches.

It is quite obvious by now that Tendulkar and Laxman maintaind there averges against the good sides and gave consistent performances while Dravid struggled both home and away though he did play some legendry innings. He simply lacked the consistency.

Most people are amazed by Dravid's strsight batted defence and media's image of the wall. As a result, they stereotype straight batted defence with success against great bowlers in hostile conditon(similar to pujara). Against great attacks in hostile conditions, a full range of strokes is required and Dravid was a limited batsman in terms of strokemaking. The likes of Tendulkar, Laxman and Sehwag were free flowing batsman and could get on top of this attacks. Dravid, on the contrary, depended on biding his time against the great bowlers to score off the lesser ones. Against teams with not so great attacks(Eng,Nz,Wi) it bore fruit. He would wait for the lesser bowlers to come on and capitalise on them. Against Australia and South Africa, and against Sri Lanka in Sri Lanka, this tactics failed. There was no such opportunity against lesser bowlers.

Hence, I can safely conclude that Dravid was a mediocre batsman against great attacks, and a great batsman against mediocre attacks. And Sachin Tendulkar is the best batsman to come out of India.
 
He did very well against Bond, Anderson, Broad, Akhtar, Lee, Gillispie, Johnson, Hoggard and has a memorable inning of 181 vs Mcgrath/ Warne which won them the match.

Hence, I would conclude that he has issues vs ATG attacks but very good against great attacks too.

If anyone was weak against great bowling attacks then its Cook.
 
Dravid's problem was not great attacks, his problem was bounce. People who think he had a perfect technique are going to be disappointed with this but it's true.

There's no real comparison between Sachin and Dravid, Sachin averages 40+ against every opposition and in every country, he had the perfect technique and he scored far quicker, additionally he played far more in the 90s which had some of the best bowlers operating around.

The comparison of Tendulkar and Dravid only comes in because people who saw them playing together from 2002-3 onwards saw a peak Dravid competing with a Tendulkar who after his tennis elbow was just not the same batsman, In spite of that Tendulkar outperformed Dravid in the matches they played together.

Dravid had the (very slightly) better technique against swing bowling though.
 
Unlike Sachin, Sehwag and Laxman he wasn't that great against spin either. His struggles against Warne are well documented. He also failed to do anything substantial in Sri Lanka where pitches used to turn from Day 1.
 
This is why I don't take stats as be all end all of judging players as they get perverted to suit agendas. SL is not a place that has been ever described by anyone as really tough conditions, if SA is considered tough conditions why aren't England and New Zealand on that list or do the nos there not suit your agenda.
 
This is why I don't take stats as be all end all of judging players as they get perverted to suit agendas. SL is not a place that has been ever described by anyone as really tough conditions, if SA is considered tough conditions why aren't England and New Zealand on that list or do the nos there not suit your agenda.

I did mention that England is one of the toughest places to tour and Dravid did very well there. New Zealand never had a world class bowling for a sustained period. The presence of Murali and Vaas in the SL team made them a very strong team at home. Throughout Dravid's career, Australia, South Africa and Sri Lanka at home had the best bowling lineup. England blew hot and cold, while West Indies were in terminal decline.
 
Only confirms the fact that tendu was head and shoulders above the others,though many try to convince themselves dravid was a better test batsman than him out of spite or to irritate his fans.Dravid was a legend ,but tendulkar was something else.
 
It's a well known fact Dravid wasn't great against all time great bowlers.

He didn't do well against Wasim, Waqar, McGrath, Warne, Murali, Steyn, Donald barring the 2001 series which was legendary.

But against other bowlers (good to great), Dravid was a VERY VERY effective batsman who made crucial runs in all conditions.

The 3 centuries he got against peak Anderson, Broad, Bresnan, Tremlett & Swann was legendary.

Against good to great bowlers, Dravid was a better test batsman than both SRT and Lara.

Overall, no.
 
SRT was India's best batter in SA, Aus & arguably England as well. This during two decades when the bowling was at it's fiercest, he has no contemporary from Asia, apart from Sunny, when it comes to performing against ATG bowlers or in tough conditions.
 
Artificial hole. He made some of the toughest runs in tough conditions. In Kingsmead test when India was rolled out for 100 and 66 . Dravid made 27 in one of the innings. By far the toughest batting condition i have seen in the last 30 years. Ball was just zipping off sideway, going in all directions. Donald was lethal. Just because you play abroad doesn't mean the surfaces are hard to bat on. SL there is one innings where he played a crucial role in winning the Test match in the absence of Sachin.
 
It's a well known fact Dravid wasn't great against all time great bowlers.

He didn't do well against Wasim, Waqar, McGrath, Warne, Murali, Steyn, Donald barring the 2001 series which was legendary.

But against other bowlers (good to great), Dravid was a VERY VERY effective batsman who made crucial runs in all conditions.

The 3 centuries he got against peak Anderson, Broad, Bresnan, Tremlett & Swann was legendary.

Against good to great bowlers, Dravid was a better test batsman than both SRT and Lara.

Overall, no.

Against Ambrose/Bishop/Walsh he was better than anyone i have seen from India. He was impeccable with his defense against them. Better than Tendulkar. He was not dominating against spin. But he was still good. Personally India's best ever batsman against swing bowling by distance.
 
Against Ambrose/Bishop/Walsh he was better than anyone i have seen from India. He was impeccable with his defense against them. Better than Tendulkar. He was not dominating against spin. But he was still good. Personally India's best ever batsman against swing bowling by distance.

Definitely India's best ever swing player.

You are right. Against Ambrose/Walsh/Bishop he did very well.
 
Why is srilanka suddenly the toughest place to bat? Seems like you just picked the places he had lower averages and labeled them the most difficult?

Anyhow yes his average is low in South Africa but it's probably still better than the best Pakistani batsmen of the past three decades (inzi/saeed etc.)
 
If you want to slice the data, then do it further. Let us check his performance tour by tour. I am sure you will find some excellent tours to these same countries.
 
It's a well known fact Dravid wasn't great against all time great bowlers.

He didn't do well against Wasim, Waqar, McGrath, Warne, Murali, Steyn, Donald barring the 2001 series which was legendary.

But against other bowlers (good to great), Dravid was a VERY VERY effective batsman who made crucial runs in all conditions.

The 3 centuries he got against peak Anderson, Broad, Bresnan, Tremlett & Swann was legendary.

Against good to great bowlers, Dravid was a better test batsman than both SRT and Lara.

Overall, no.

I'm acctually collecting data from cricinfo's ball by ball commentary to compare the greats to one another, as well as the current day greats to those from the 90s and 2000s.
 
Thread title reads as slightly dramatic to me, for me Dravid was still an ATG, although you will always get a slightly biased opinion from England fans on this topic - because England always got absolutely pwned by Dravid, whereas certainly since turn of the century England have done relatively well against the rest of the Fab Five including Tendulkar.

Surely everyone rates Tendulkar above any other Indian batsman though? Tendulkar is arguably the second best batsman of all time to Bradman, never mind just being the best from India.
 
some players achievements and contribution to their teams cannot be measured in terms of statistics alone - dravid blunting several attacks (no. of balls faced per each opposition) created platform for the rest of the team to breath easy on several occassions -stability. Also, he had the guts to declare when Tendulkar was on 194, unlike other subcontinental captains, he did not give priority to people but their skills - leadership ability. He was ready for the role of a wicketkeeper- flexibility. During his 15-16 years of career, you could say he was many times batting when India was 10/1 or 25/2 - such pathetic opening we had overseas many a time - weak opening pair - you might claim Sehwag was a great opening batsman,he (sehwag) was but an impactful batsman but not stable scorer and not in all overseas conditions. His contribution to the team cannot be measured in terms of runs alone. Something like Pujara now.
 
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Dravid is hyped because of his gentlemanly behavior. He was never an ATG. The best number 3 for India and a good servant.
 
Matches where both Dravid and Tendulkar played

[table= class: grid, align: center]
[tr][td]Tendulkar [/td][td]Mat [/td][td]Runs [/td][td]Ave [/td][td]SR [/td][td]100 [/td][td] [/td][td]Dravid [/td][td]Mat [/td][td]Runs [/td][td]Ave [/td][td]SR [/td][td]100 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Overall [/td][td]200 [/td][td]15921 [/td][td]53.78 [/td][td]54.04* [/td][td]51 [/td][td] [/td][td]Overall [/td][td]164 [/td][td]13288 [/td][td]52.31 [/td][td]42.51 [/td][td]36 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]with Dravid [/td][td]146 [/td][td]12586 [/td][td]56.18 [/td][td]54.56 [/td][td]40 [/td][td] [/td][td]with Tendulkar [/td][td]146 [/td][td]11894 [/td][td]52.62 [/td][td]42.68 [/td][td]34 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]v Australia [/td][td]30 [/td][td]3070 [/td][td]59.03 [/td][td]59.64 [/td][td]9 [/td][td] [/td][td]v Australia [/td][td]30 [/td][td]2057 [/td][td]40.33 [/td][td]39.98 [/td][td]2 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]v Bangladesh [/td][td]7 [/td][td]820 [/td][td]136.66 [/td][td]63.36 [/td][td]5 [/td][td] [/td][td]v Bangladesh [/td][td]7 [/td][td]560 [/td][td]70 [/td][td]59.44 [/td][td]3 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]v England [/td][td]21 [/td][td]1730 [/td][td]50.88 [/td][td]51.96 [/td][td]4 [/td][td] [/td][td]v England [/td][td]21 [/td][td]1950 [/td][td]60.93 [/td][td]41.35 [/td][td]7 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]v New Zealand [/td][td]15 [/td][td]1303 [/td][td]54.29 [/td][td]55.73 [/td][td]4 [/td][td] [/td][td]v New Zealand [/td][td]15 [/td][td]1659 [/td][td]63.8 [/td][td]45.22 [/td][td]6 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]v Pakistan [/td][td]14 [/td][td]842 [/td][td]44.31 [/td][td]51.75 [/td][td]2 [/td][td] [/td][td]v Pakistan [/td][td]14 [/td][td]1175 [/td][td]55.95 [/td][td]45.48 [/td][td]5 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]v South Africa [/td][td]19 [/td][td]1326 [/td][td]41.43 [/td][td]48.71 [/td][td]4 [/td][td] [/td][td]v South Africa [/td][td]19 [/td][td]1185 [/td][td]34.85 [/td][td]34.96 [/td][td]2 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]v Sri Lanka [/td][td]17 [/td][td]1495 [/td][td]59.8 [/td][td]52.71 [/td][td]7 [/td][td] [/td][td]v Sri Lanka [/td][td]17 [/td][td]1273 [/td][td]48.96 [/td][td]47.25 [/td][td]3 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]v West Indies [/td][td]16 [/td][td]1144 [/td][td]52 [/td][td]49.86 [/td][td]2 [/td][td] [/td][td]v West Indies [/td][td]16 [/td][td]1231 [/td][td]61.55 [/td][td]39.67 [/td][td]3 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]v Zimbabwe [/td][td]7 [/td][td]856 [/td][td]85.6 [/td][td]57.83 [/td][td]3 [/td][td] [/td][td]v Zimbabwe [/td][td]7 [/td][td]804 [/td][td]100.5 [/td][td]49.41 [/td][td]3 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]in Australia [/td][td]15 [/td][td]1441 [/td][td]55.42 [/td][td]58.81 [/td][td]4 [/td][td] [/td][td]in Australia [/td][td]15 [/td][td]1143 [/td][td]43.96 [/td][td]39.79 [/td][td]1 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]in Bangladesh [/td][td]7 [/td][td]820 [/td][td]136.66 [/td][td]63.36 [/td][td]5 [/td][td] [/td][td]in Bangladesh [/td][td]7 [/td][td]560 [/td][td]70 [/td][td]59.44 [/td][td]3 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]in England [/td][td]13 [/td][td]1184 [/td][td]51.47 [/td][td]52.38 [/td][td]2 [/td][td] [/td][td]in England [/td][td]13 [/td][td]1376 [/td][td]68.8 [/td][td]44.66 [/td][td]6 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]in India [/td][td]65 [/td][td]5431 [/td][td]54.85 [/td][td]52.99 [/td][td]17 [/td][td] [/td][td]in India [/td][td]65 [/td][td]5384 [/td][td]53.3 [/td][td]42.83 [/td][td]15 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]in New Zealand [/td][td]7 [/td][td]671 [/td][td]55.91 [/td][td]63.54 [/td][td]2 [/td][td] [/td][td]in New Zealand [/td][td]7 [/td][td]766 [/td][td]63.83 [/td][td]43.69 [/td][td]2 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]in Pakistan [/td][td]6 [/td][td]268 [/td][td]44.66 [/td][td]56.18 [/td][td]1 [/td][td] [/td][td]in Pakistan [/td][td]6 [/td][td]550 [/td][td]78.57 [/td][td]51.06 [/td][td]3 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]in South Africa [/td][td]11 [/td][td]959 [/td][td]50.47 [/td][td]52.6 [/td][td]4 [/td][td] [/td][td]in South Africa [/td][td]11 [/td][td]624 [/td][td]29.71 [/td][td]37.63 [/td][td]1 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]in Sri Lanka [/td][td]9 [/td][td]952 [/td][td]63.46 [/td][td]55.83 [/td][td]4 [/td][td] [/td][td]in Sri Lanka [/td][td]9 [/td][td]427 [/td][td]28.46 [/td][td]39.57 [/td][td]1 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]in West Indies [/td][td]10 [/td][td]620 [/td][td]47.69 [/td][td]47.22 [/td][td]1 [/td][td] [/td][td]in West Indies [/td][td]10 [/td][td]764 [/td][td]63.66 [/td][td]35.38 [/td][td]1 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]in Zimbabwe [/td][td]3 [/td][td]240 [/td][td]48 [/td][td]54.54 [/td][td]0 [/td][td] [/td][td]in Zimbabwe [/td][td]3 [/td][td]300 [/td][td]75 [/td][td]44.37 [/td][td]1 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]home [/td][td]65 [/td][td]5431 [/td][td]54.85 [/td][td]52.99 [/td][td]17 [/td][td] [/td][td]home [/td][td]65 [/td][td]5384 [/td][td]53.3 [/td][td]42.83 [/td][td]15 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]away [/td][td]81 [/td][td]7155 [/td][td]57.24 [/td][td]55.81 [/td][td]23 [/td][td] [/td][td]away [/td][td]81 [/td][td]6510 [/td][td]52.08 [/td][td]42.55 [/td][td]19 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]is captain [/td][td]25 [/td][td]2054 [/td][td]51.35 [/td][td]50.69 [/td][td]7 [/td][td] [/td][td]is captain [/td][td]21 [/td][td]1240 [/td][td]37.57 [/td][td]41.38 [/td][td]3 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]is not captain [/td][td]121 [/td][td]10532 [/td][td]57.23 [/td][td]55.38 [/td][td]33 [/td][td] [/td][td]is not captain [/td][td]125 [/td][td]10654 [/td][td]55.2 [/td][td]42.84 [/td][td]31 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]won match [/td][td]50 [/td][td]4572 [/td][td]66.26 [/td][td]56.02 [/td][td]16 [/td][td] [/td][td]won match [/td][td]50 [/td][td]4518 [/td][td]65.47 [/td][td]47.89 [/td][td]14 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]lost match [/td][td]44 [/td][td]3401 [/td][td]39.54 [/td][td]55.56 [/td][td]8 [/td][td] [/td][td]lost match [/td][td]44 [/td][td]2530 [/td][td]30.11 [/td][td]35.26 [/td][td]4 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]drawn match [/td][td]52 [/td][td]4613 [/td][td]66.85 [/td][td]52.5 [/td][td]16 [/td][td] [/td][td]drawn match [/td][td]52 [/td][td]4846 [/td][td]66.38 [/td][td]43.04 [/td][td]16 [/td][/tr]
[/table]
 
Thread title reads as slightly dramatic to me, for me Dravid was still an ATG, although you will always get a slightly biased opinion from England fans on this topic - because England always got absolutely pwned by Dravid, whereas certainly since turn of the century England have done relatively well against the rest of the Fab Five including Tendulkar.

Surely everyone rates Tendulkar above any other Indian batsman though? Tendulkar is arguably the second best batsman of all time to Bradman, never mind just being the best from India.

Thing is we have thousands of insecure Sachin fans in India who want to put down other batsmen to make Sachin look better. OP seems one of them.
 
Dravid is an ATG in tests. There is no detailed analysis required to prove it. Even at the end of his career, he scored centuries in England.
 
Thing is we have thousands of insecure Sachin fans in India who want to put down other batsmen to make Sachin look better. OP seems one of them.

Sachin the cricketer was indeed better than Dravid. Dravid the person, may be better. For a person known as the wall, he had a high percent of clean bowled dismissals. And struggled in ODIs.

Dravid is an Indian great and a great servant. Not an ATG.
 
Dravid was weak against bounce, of which there is plenty in South Africa and the same used to be true in Australia. Great bowling attacks were not the problem, nor were swing, seam or spin ever a problem for him.

I understand why OP made this thread and appreciate the effort. It is well written. There are some people who end up overhyping Dravid by placing him on level ground with Tendulker, when the latter was clearly the better batsman.
 
Failure is not a word you would associate with Rahul Dravid. The stylish batsman, who racked up 13,288 runs in Tests besides a 10,889 runs in ODIs, is indisputably a legend, who is now starting to leave his mark as a coach too.

Yet, when he took the stage at the GoSports Foundation Athletes Conclave 2017 at Bengaluru on Friday, failure was precisely the adjective he chose to describe himself to a roomful of athletes, many of them Olympians and Paralympians.

"Back in my time, a half century was considered a good score. Across formats, I batted 604 times for India. I didn't cross 50 runs 410 times out of those innings.

Rahul Dravid speaking at the GoSports Foundation Athletes Conclave 2017 in Bengaluru. Image Courtesy: GoSportsRahul Dravid speaking at the GoSports Foundation Athletes Conclave 2017 in Bengaluru. Image Courtesy: GoSports
"I failed a lot more times than I succeeded. I'm more a failure than a success, So, I'm quite qualified to talk about failure," Dravid announced, forcing athletes to do a double-take.

Modesty, forever Dravid's trademark off the field, was not in short supply through the day at the event. Dravid said a biopic on his life would be "boring because in the first half of the movie, I will be on zero. And it's only in the second half, that I will get off the mark."

It was only a few hours ago that India's only individual gold medallist at the Olympics, Abhinav Bindra, had chosen to describe himself as a "lallu (ordinary) athlete" to an audience which had the likes of double Paralympic gold medallist Devendra Jhajharia, gymnast Dipa Karmakar, shuttler B Sai Praneeth among other athletes sponsored by the foundation.

Just like Bindra was trying to tell the room that an Olympic gold is attainable, Dravid was exhorting the athletes to embrace failure.

"Let's look at the best batsman of my generation: Sachin Tendulkar. He scored hundred 100s. But he didn't cross the 50-run milestone in 517 out of the 781 times he batted. So he too was more of a failure than a success, if that's even possible," the 44-year-old said.

Throughout his session — first the 15-minute speech he delivered extempore and then, a conversation with Managing Trustee of GoSports Foundation, Nandan Kamath — Dravid was keen to emphasise on why failing was necessary to grow as an athlete.

"One of the things that I picked up from the great players who I have played with, and the athletes I know, is their attitude towards failure. They know how to fail well. What's critical for me is that you can fail. You can take it badly, but you can also take it well. Taking it well is really important.

"A lot of times when we fail, we tend to brush things under the carpet, you can blame someone or always look to find an excuse. There's always something that was wrong that caused you to fail.

"But such attitude costs you an opportunity to fail well and understand what your weaknesses are. It robs you the chance to understand at that stage what are the skills that you have and what's lacking," he added.

Dravid peppered his talk with examples from his career, bringing up the famous Test of 2001 against Australia in Kolkata where he and VVS Laxman did the unthinkable. India had dug themselves into a deep hole on that occasion, staring at certain defeat as a first innings collapse left them at 232 for four after following on.

Dravid pointed out that when he walked in to bat that day, he had been demoted to sixth position in the batting line-up after a series of woeful performances. Australia's Steve Waugh even sledged him saying, "Today you're batting at No 6, if you fail, you could be No 12."

Dravid said that at that moment he didn't even have the mental capacity to think about the future or the past. So he told himself to take it one ball at a time and see how many such "one balls" he could play out.

"When the play got to to lunch, even I was surprised that I had reached there without losing my wicket," Dravid said.

Dravid said the most important thing for an athlete is to not blame others for their failure.

"If you go on an overseas tour and if you fail or have a bad tour, one way to react to that would be to say 'the conditions were not right' or 'I didn't get enough practice' or 'umpires gave me a bad decision' and think when we play in India, I will make up my average.

"The other way would be to say it was a good opportunity which taught me a lot about myself and what I need to do to improve. That's the thing about all great athletes that I know, they always know how to fail well. They were able to use failure as a stepping stone by being honest with themselves and recognising what needs to be done. They use failure as a benchmark.

"Unless you're one of the privileged few, you're always going to fail more than you succeed. As sportsmen, we all feel that and feel the pain of it," he said.

But the biggest takeaway from all failure, Dravid asserted, was to "fail better."


http://www.firstpost.com/firstcrick...king-it-well-is-really-important-4260881.html
 
Dravid's problem was not great attacks, his problem was bounce. People who think he had a perfect technique are going to be disappointed with this but it's true.

There's no real comparison between Sachin and Dravid, Sachin averages 40+ against every opposition and in every country, he had the perfect technique and he scored far quicker, additionally he played far more in the 90s which had some of the best bowlers operating around.

The comparison of Tendulkar and Dravid only comes in because people who saw them playing together from 2002-3 onwards saw a peak Dravid competing with a Tendulkar who after his tennis elbow was just not the same batsman, In spite of that Tendulkar outperformed Dravid in the matches they played together.

Dravid had the (very slightly) better technique against swing bowling though.

Spot on. Dravid's weakness was extra bounce. Not simply 'great bowling', which is too simplistic.
 
It's a well known fact Dravid wasn't great against all time great bowlers.

He didn't do well against Wasim, Waqar, McGrath, Warne, Murali, Steyn, Donald barring the 2001 series which was legendary.

But against other bowlers (good to great), Dravid was a VERY VERY effective batsman who made crucial runs in all conditions.

The 3 centuries he got against peak Anderson, Broad, Bresnan, Tremlett & Swann was legendary.

Against good to great bowlers, Dravid was a better test batsman than both SRT and Lara.

Overall, no.

He batted brilliantly against:

Donald/Pollock in 1997
Mcgrath/Warne in 2001
Murali whenever he played at home
Ambrose/Walsh/Bishop in 1997
Bond in 2002 on greentops
 
He batted brilliantly against:

Donald/Pollock in 1997
Mcgrath/Warne in 2001
Murali whenever he played at home
Ambrose/Walsh/Bishop in 1997
Bond in 2002 on greentops

Yeah.....he wasn't rubbish against ATG attacks but not consistent. He has had some really good knocks against such bowlers.

His home and away numbers with ATG bowlers aren't great. I don't have the links right now with me.
 
Dravid averages 8 against mcgrath, 20 against lee & 17 against akram. His stats in south africa and srilanka were poor as well. People hyped him due to his england stats. He was great against medium pacer who can swing. Not great against seam or pace.
 
Dravid averages 8 against mcgrath, 20 against lee & 17 against akram. His stats in south africa and srilanka were poor as well. People hyped him due to his england stats. He was great against medium pacer who can swing. Not great against seam or pace.

Lol those stats are all wrong. Where did you get them? There is no way he averaged 8 against McGrath when he had a brilliant series against him in 01.
 
Lol those stats are all wrong. Where did you get them? There is no way he averaged 8 against McGrath when he had a brilliant series against him in 01.

It's his overall stats. He had just one good match against mcgrath where mcgrath almost gave him nothing. Maybe he scored big but runs came against other bowlers mostly.
 
Yeah.....he wasn't rubbish against ATG attacks but not consistent. He has had some really good knocks against such bowlers.

His home and away numbers with ATG bowlers aren't great. I don't have the links right now with me.

The thing is, if you look at most ATG batsmen's numbers against ATG bowlers, they are usually not good. This is not specific to Dravid.

Tendulkar averaged 37 in matches vs Mcgrath and 34 in matches vs Donald. It was in 30s against Wasim/Waqar too.

Similarly Lara averaged in 30s against Donald, Wasim/Waqar and struggled in India vs Kumble.

This is true for most batsmen, not just Dravid. No one is cosistentlly great against great attacks. It is almost impossible to do. Best you can hope for is some good performances. Which Dravid certainly had.
 
It's his overall stats. He had just one good match against mcgrath where mcgrath almost gave him nothing. Maybe he scored big but runs came against other bowlers mostly.

Er, so what? Why is it relevant who he scored runs off? So it doesn't count if he scores off others ? McGrath was still part of the attack.

This is dumb
 
The thing is, if you look at most ATG batsmen's numbers against ATG bowlers, they are usually not good. This is not specific to Dravid.

Tendulkar averaged 37 in matches vs Mcgrath and 34 in matches vs Donald. It was in 30s against Wasim/Waqar too.

Similarly Lara averaged in 30s against Donald, Wasim/Waqar and struggled in India vs Kumble.

This is true for most batsmen, not just Dravid. No one is cosistentlly great against great attacks. It is almost impossible to do. Best you can hope for is some good performances. Which Dravid certainly had.

Nope. We can slice and dice it and it will get confusing.

Let's look at a simple analysis:

Against ATG bowlers: Wasim, Waqar, Ambrose, Walsh, Steyn, Donald, Pollock, Muralitharan:

Dravid averages 39 overall (46 at home and 32 away).
Sachin averages 47 overall (46 at home and 47 away)
Lara averages 49 overall (52 at home and 47 away) - removed Ambrose and Walsh from the filter

Dravid - http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...r_involve=47154;template=results;type=batting

Sachin - http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...r_involve=47154;template=results;type=batting

Lara - http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...r_involve=47154;template=results;type=batting

Also a few more points:

1. Dravid didn't face peak/high level Wasim or Waqar like Tendulkar (1989) and Lara (90s) did.

2. Tendulkar averaged 37 against McGrath only because he was brought quickly with injury to save the 20094 home series. Or else he averages mid 40s against McGrath. His numbers against Donald is low though (30s I think) both home and away.

Without even these stats, the eye test shows Dravid wasn't that amazing against ATG bowlers.

Note: I forgot to include Bond in the filter. Too lazy to change it now. But even doing so, all 3 numbers are pretty much the same.

Dravid With Bond - http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...r_involve=47154;template=results;type=batting

SRT With Bond - http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...r_involve=47154;template=results;type=batting

Lara with Bond - http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...er_involve=2228;template=results;type=batting
 
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Er, so what? Why is it relevant who he scored runs off? So it doesn't count if he scores off others ? McGrath was still part of the attack.

This is dumb

If you can't pick wicket make sure you keep it tight that's what mcgrath did there but he didn't get support from other end there. Avg of 8 tells mcgrath gave just 8 runs against dravid per dismissal.
 
If you can't pick wicket make sure you keep it tight that's what mcgrath did there but he didn't get support from other end there. Avg of 8 tells mcgrath gave just 8 runs against dravid per dismissal.

I highly doubt that stat is true.
 
Nope. We can slice and dice it and it will get confusing.

Let's look at a simple analysis:

Against ATG bowlers: Wasim, Waqar, Ambrose, Walsh, Steyn, Donald, Pollock, Muralitharan:

Dravid averages 39 overall (46 at home and 32 away).
Sachin averages 47 overall (46 at home and 47 away)
Lara averages 49 overall (52 at home and 47 away) - removed Ambrose and Walsh from the filter

Dravid - http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...r_involve=47154;template=results;type=batting

Sachin - http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...r_involve=47154;template=results;type=batting

Lara - http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...r_involve=47154;template=results;type=batting

Also a few more points:

1. Dravid didn't face peak/high level Wasim or Waqar like Tendulkar (1989) and Lara (90s) did.

2. Tendulkar averaged 37 against McGrath only because he was brought quickly with injury to save the 20094 home series. Or else he averages mid 40s against McGrath. His numbers against Donald is low though (30s I think) both home and away.

Without even these stats, the eye test shows Dravid wasn't that amazing against ATG bowlers.

Note: I forgot to include Bond in the filter. Too lazy to change it now. But even doing so, all 3 numbers are pretty much the same.

Dravid With Bond - http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...r_involve=47154;template=results;type=batting

SRT With Bond - http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...r_involve=47154;template=results;type=batting

Lara with Bond - http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...er_involve=2228;template=results;type=batting

My argument wasn't that he was as good as SRT and Lara against ATG bowlers. Just that SRT and Lara also have some subpar performances against ATG bowlers.

My concern is with the "gaping hole". It is not a gaping hole when greater batsmen also have those faults, albeit to a slightly lesser degree.
 
My argument wasn't that he was as good as SRT and Lara against ATG bowlers. Just that SRT and Lara also have some subpar performances against ATG bowlers.

My concern is with the "gaping hole". It is not a gaping hole when greater batsmen also have those faults, albeit to a slightly lesser degree.

Yeah true. In my main post which you qouted, I too never said Dravid was bad against ATG bowlers. Just that he wasn't great.
 
India’s tour to Pakistan in 2003-04 was a landmark for many reasons. It marked the resumption of cricketing ties between the neighbours and gave India’s promising cricketers a chance to leave their mark and become greats of the game and they did not disappoint. The three-match Test series which won by India 2-1, belonged to Virender Sehwag, who rewrote the record books by becoming the first Indian to breach the 300-run mark during the Multan Test. The likes of Irfan Pathan, Lakshmipathy Balaji and Anil Kumble too played their parts throughout the series but it was Rahul Dravid who stood up for the tourists in the decider at Rawalpindi.

With the series locked 1-1, it all came down to the third Test at Rawalpindi and Rahul Dravid, who had had a below-par series by his standards until then, chose to seize the opportunity.

With scores of 6, 33 and 0 in the series, Dravid was under the pump but the Wall turned it all around.

He was obviously helped by Balaji, whose four-wicket haul on Day 1 helped India bowled out Pakistan for 224 and eased the pressure on India’s batting line-up.

Pakistan, however, gave a body blow to India through Shoaib Akhtar. The local boy removed man in form Virender Sehwag for a golden duck and Dravid walked in with a job on his hand.

The seasoned campaigner did a commendable job with Parthiv Patel to take India to safety. But something happened after the close of play on Day 1 that would go on to strike everyone 24 hours later.

Resuming at 15, Dravid completed his hundred on Day 2 and on Day 3 he got to 270 – his highest Test score – to take India to 600.

The former India captain went to reveal how he felt good after the first day’s play and had also made a light-hearted prediction about him getting a big one.

“I remember being 15 or something at the close of play on Day 1. I had just gone down to have dinner with a few people that night and just happened to be sitting, a few journalists were around as well. I just felt really good about my batting at that stage, I felt that I’ve batted well for the 15 runs, I felt I had batted well in the series with no significant score,” Dravid said in an interview aired on Star Sports.

“So As I was leaving, I sort of made this off the cup remark, didn’t really mean it that much. But I said, ‘look if I get set tomorrow and bat for an hour, you know you’re gonna see a big one from me. And so it happened, I went on to score 270 so people came and said, ‘how did you know’ and all that,” Dravid added.

India’s huge score was too much for Pakistan as they crumbled for the second time in the Test match. Anil Kumble picked up four wickets and Balaji once again sneered three as India won by an innings and 131 runs to claim the series 2-1.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/cric...lpindi-test/story-oRDex6ed1EBAzt1qKhpEYO.html
 
Dravid averages 8 against mcgrath, 20 against lee & 17 against akram. His stats in south africa and srilanka were poor as well. People hyped him due to his england stats. He was great against medium pacer who can swing. Not great against seam or pace.
If you are taking that from Cricmetric or ask Cricinfo, their database is incomplete prior to 2002 ish.
 
Frankly, there is not much of a comparison between Tendulkar and Dravid overall, but even in just Tests Tendulkar was a superior batsman in terms of batting average, technique, strike rate, overall presence, and the overall quality of bowling faced. This is not to say at all that Dravid was a poor batsman by any means, but that comparison really doesn’t have a leg to stand on. I have been alive long enough to see both Tendulkar and Dravid begin their careers and develop through it and I can definitely say Tendulkar was a far superior batsman overall and stiil better than Dravid in Tests as well.
 
Don't recall many a times that Dravid carried the whole team through. However, what Dravid did was play out long hours, perhaps without scoring many runs. He could just bore the bowlers to death. Sachin and Sehwag would not do that.
 
Don't recall many a times that Dravid carried the whole team through. However, what Dravid did was play out long hours, perhaps without scoring many runs. He could just bore the bowlers to death. Sachin and Sehwag would not do that.

He did carried the whole team through in bowling friendly conditions like in England 2011, multiple tours to Windies or New Zealand. Those were extreme bowling friendly conditions.

Dravid is arguably the best Indian test batsman on tough pitches. VVS was the best under pressure, Sehwag absolute beast in Asia on roads and rank turners both. Sachin was the run machine and technically the most proficient.
 
He did carried the whole team through in bowling friendly conditions like in England 2011, multiple tours to Windies or New Zealand. Those were extreme bowling friendly conditions.

Dravid is arguably the best Indian test batsman on tough pitches. VVS was the best under pressure, Sehwag absolute beast in Asia on roads and rank turners both. Sachin was the run machine and technically the most proficient.
Why did the best indian batsman on tough pitches have a terrible record in sa. The same goes for aus, where his average is boosted by the 233 he scored on a flat pitch against the australia b attack
 
Dravid is the most overrated Indian cricketer of all time. Terrible influence on Indian cricket, even as captain and coach. This meek so called gentleman is hyped by some people just to pull Sachin down, same like how some people hype Rohit/Pujara/Rahane to pull Kohli down. Can never rate that guy, at least 10 Indian cricketers better than him, maybe even more. Pujara is better number 3, and Gundappa Viswanath was a better batsman from Karnataka, Kumble was the better cricketer from his state.

With time his facade of being gentleman will also be exposed. We all saw his cunning, ungrateful, jealous, opportunistic side in the Chappell saga.
 
I've noticed a lot in test cricket in England that Tendulkar would often fail miserably but Dravid would stand tall.
Sachin never failed miserably in England. Dominated them twice and at his worst in 2011 was still the second best batsman from his side.

Failing miserably is what Dravid did in SA, Aus against their best attacks.
 
Sachin never failed miserably in England. Dominated them twice and at his worst in 2011 was still the second best batsman from his side.

Failing miserably is what Dravid did in SA, Aus against their best attacks.
Sachin Tendulkar in England in Tests -

Innings - 30; Average - 54.31; 100's -4; 50's - 8


That is that poster's definition of SRT failing miserably in England.
 
He did carried the whole team through in bowling friendly conditions like in England 2011, multiple tours to Windies or New Zealand. Those were extreme bowling friendly conditions.

Dravid is arguably the best Indian test batsman on tough pitches. VVS was the best under pressure, Sehwag absolute beast in Asia on roads and rank turners both. Sachin was the run machine and technically the most proficient.
I think you are talking more out of impression than actual incidence. Not saying Dravid was bad, but he wasn't the messiah as he is made out to be. How many innings in Eng did he carry solely on his shoulders?
 
He did carried the whole team through in bowling friendly conditions like in England 2011, multiple tours to Windies or New Zealand. Those were extreme bowling friendly conditions.

Dravid is arguably the best Indian test batsman on tough pitches. VVS was the best under pressure, Sehwag absolute beast in Asia on roads and rank turners both. Sachin was the run machine and technically the most proficient.
My bad, he does have a phenomenal record in England and NZ.
 
My bad, he does have a phenomenal record in England and NZ.

Without a doubt. Also, in Windies 2006, those were some really bad pitches where he helped his team win the series as standout performer. There shouldn't be any doubting on his test batting credentials. He was one of the test greats of the game.
 
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