Ravindra Jadeja - Second fastest to get 300 wickets and 4000 runs in Test cricket

[BouncerGuy]

Jadeja should say goodbye to test cricket. I think he is done

 

[jnaveen1980]

Jadeja should say goodbye to test cricket. I think he is done

What? Just won man of the match for all round performance

 

[BouncerGuy]

What? Just won man of the match for all round performance

Nay... He is old... He should have retired with KOhli etc

 

[jeetu]

What about Kallis and Sobers?

The criteria i used was about pure AR , meaning batting Avg over 30 and bowling Avg under 30. Batting AR like Sobers , Kallis , Stokes have bowling avg over 30.

 

[pratiktc]

Yeah I reckon please look beyond nostalgia. He was pretty mediocre away from home throughout the 1990s and barring 2-3 performances, he didn’t have much to boost for in overseas conditions over his career.

Of course when India will field 2 pacers in their XI, they have to rely on Kumble to be the lead strike bowler. Lack of support is understandable but a career avg of 29 tells us that he had his ups and downs. He is not your biggest match winner by any stretch. That would go to Ashwin.

From Kumble’s era, the biggest match winner was probably Sehwag because he was key to India’s series win in Pakistan and Sri Lanka. Rahul Dravid was key to India’s win overseas

It is more important to watch cricket and assess players than try to slice and dice their numbers and come up with half baked analysis.

In the 90s - Indian cricket's biggest achievement was its home Test record which was built on Kumble being the bowler of difference across both sides nearly every series. Excel fans will discount this saying dustbowl wkts don't count but reality is that if you are outperforming your peers consistently it is a special achievement.

In the 00s - ICT's biggest series wins away

1) vs Aus in 01 at home - Kumble injured and out of series

2) vs Eng 02 , 1-1 draw away - Kumble was top wkt taker across both sides with 14 @36 in a bat dominated series. He had 7 wkts in the headingley win including dismissing both set batters Hussain and Stewart on final day

3) vs Aus away 1-1 draw - Kumble again far and away top bowler across both sides with 24 wkts at 29.5. In the Adelaide test he picked up last 3 wkts for zero runs in first inns 5-fer to keep Aus to 556 when 600+ and triple for Ricky were on cards and in second inns bowled Gichrist when he was threatening counterattack. In Sydney, he took 12/16 Aus wkts on flattest track in years

3) vs Pak in 2004 , 2-1 win. Again Kumble was leading wkt taker across teams in first inns batting dominated series. 15 wkts at 25 while shutting out Pak with second inns 6-fer and 4-fer at Multan and Rawalpindi respectively.

4) vs WI in 2006 , 1-0. Again Kumble leading wkt taker across teams with 23 wkts at 28. The deciding test was again a Kumble second inns shutdown where he took 6fer to bowl WI out defending 269

 

[pratiktc]

5) vs SA in 2006, 1-1 draw. Was the ideal support bowler. Second highest wkt taker in series behind only Sreesanth and Ntini (14 @24) and the tourniquet bowler for India.

6) vs Eng in 2007 , 1-0 win. Took 14 wkts at 34 and was 2nd highest wkt taker outperforming Anderson and Sidebottom on batting friendly, seam movement focused wkts. Played steady role in removing Engs tail and also made vital contributions with bat in both tests India dominated.


Modern fans who don't watch cricket might think what was so special about a 29 avg bowler but Indian fans and Indian players of 90s and 00s know that Kumble was a giant who always delivered for the team

 

[Ab Fan]

It is more important to watch cricket and assess players than try to slice and dice their numbers and come up with half baked analysis.

In the 90s - Indian cricket's biggest achievement was its home Test record which was built on Kumble being the bowler of difference across both sides nearly every series. Excel fans will discount this saying dustbowl wkts don't count but reality is that if you are outperforming your peers consistently it is a special achievement.

In the 00s - ICT's biggest series wins away

1) vs Aus in 01 at home - Kumble injured and out of series

2) vs Eng 02 , 1-1 draw away - Kumble was top wkt taker across both sides with 14 @36 in a bat dominated series. He had 7 wkts in the headingley win including dismissing both set batters Hussain and Stewart on final day

3) vs Aus away 1-1 draw - Kumble again far and away top bowler across both sides with 24 wkts at 29.5. In the Adelaide test he picked up last 3 wkts for zero runs in first inns 5-fer to keep Aus to 556 when 600+ and triple for Ricky were on cards and in second inns bowled Gichrist when he was threatening counterattack. In Sydney, he took 12/16 Aus wkts on flattest track in years

3) vs Pak in 2004 , 2-1 win. Again Kumble was leading wkt taker across teams in first inns batting dominated series. 15 wkts at 25 while shutting out Pak with second inns 6-fer and 4-fer at Multan and Rawalpindi respectively.

4) vs WI in 2006 , 1-0. Again Kumble leading wkt taker across teams with 23 wkts at 28. The deciding test was again a Kumble second inns shutdown where he took 6fer to bowl WI out defending 269

The only one with half baked analysis is you at this point.

All these performances were thanks to scoreboard pressure created by Indian batsmen. Most of these series are remembered for Rahul Dravid or Virender Sehwag setting it up for India. There is no achievement in picking wickets when opposition has already scored 550-600 runs. Yes, those were good batting pitches but Kumble was “Andhon me Kana Raja” in those series.

He was the lead bowler for India and because there was no competition for picking wickets among Indian bowlers, Kumble would often come ahead as a leading wicket taker in those series but those averages tells us that he wasn’t really winning India much. Your post only strengthens the claim that Kumble was actually far from being India’s biggest match winner of all time.

 

[Obaidd]

Kumble and Jadeja have both merited their place as greats for their achievements which are so different to each other that there is no comparison as to who’s better.

I won’t need to look through a stat book to say both were great because they had decades long careers of performance after performance.

Thread is about Jadeja and what I loved about him was that he always contributed and his brains that he brought to the game, a lot of times also as a trusted deputy. Even when he had a reputation of being only a white ball player he had one 300 in ranji (he scored more later) which I knew about so never understood when casual ind fans dismissed him.

 

[BouncerGuy]

The criteria i used was about pure AR , meaning batting Avg over 30 and bowling Avg under 30. Batting AR like Sobers , Kallis , Stokes have bowling avg over 30.

So according to this, we have a guy named Shaun pollock who fits your criteria... But I don't think he a bigger player than Kallis..

The best of them all is Imran Khan 22 avg with ball and 37+ with bat

 

[Ab Fan]

Jadeja proving that his success in Indian conditions is down to a specific skill that he has mastered more than most of the spinners that have played the game. More all round spinners can come and may do well in India but won’t leave the kind of impact that Jadeja has built all these years.

 

[jeetu]

So according to this, we have a guy named Shaun pollock who fits your criteria... But I don't think he a bigger player than Kallis..

The best of them all is Imran Khan 22 avg with ball and 37+ with bat

I agree Imran Khan remains the best Pure/Bowling AR among everyone.

Pollock slips the radar because as a bowler he was always under the shadow of Donald and Steyn. He has only 2 test centuries which hurts his batting credential. Almost all other Pure AR has 5 centuries or more.
The only the reason i rate Sobers above Kallis for the best Batting AR spot , Kallis has low Wickets per match in comparison. However in Kallis defensive Stokes is much Wickets per match is much lower.

Jadeja is in serious contention for 2nd spot with Kieth Miller. Also yardstick for spinners requires little more leeway when you realize than even Warne has bowling average over little over 25. Jadeja's current average is slightly lower than Warne.

 

[Ab Fan]

Jadeja is an ATG all rounder. Stats are slightly inflated but despite that overall performance is comparable to Botham, Miller and Kapil.

 

[BouncerGuy]

Double of 4000 runs & 300 wickets in Tests

Ian Botham (5200 runs, 383 wkts)
Kapil Dev (5248 runs, 434 wkts)
Daniel Vettori (4531 runs, 362 wkts)
Ravindra Jadeja (4000* runs, 338 wkts)
87 Tests by Jadeja to the milestone is the second quickest among the four behind Botham’s 72.

 

[Hitman]

Double of 4000 runs & 300 wickets in Tests

Ian Botham (5200 runs, 383 wkts)
Kapil Dev (5248 runs, 434 wkts)
Daniel Vettori (4531 runs, 362 wkts)
Ravindra Jadeja (4000* runs, 338 wkts)
87 Tests by Jadeja to the milestone is the second quickest among the four behind Botham’s 72.

Well done, Jadeja! Still remember how bloody ordinary when he came into the scene. So much that he became the butt of all jokes.

On another note, Botham was a champion before his steep decline. He still remained a dangerous batsman but his bowling declined beyond belief.​

 

[Bhaijaan]

The target for Jadeja is to get past Kapil Dev in numbers. He will never be greater than him but if he can have more wickets and runs than him in tests it will be a huge achievement for him and will cement his legacy as a Top 10 test cricketer from Bharat

 

[Ab Fan]

The target for Jadeja is to get past Kapil Dev in numbers. He will never be greater than him but if he can have more wickets and runs than him in tests it will be a huge achievement for him and will cement his legacy as a Top 10 test cricketer from Bharat

Kapil Dev is just another overrated test player due to winning World Cup as captain.

 

[saimayubera]

Kapil Dev is just another overrated test player due to winning World Cup as captain.

Naah he is a great AR. Way better than the likes of Stokes, Shakib etc

 

[Ab Fan]

Naah he is a great AR. Way better than the likes of Stokes, Shakib etc

Great - Yes
Greatest - No

 

[charlie007]

Great - Yes
Greatest - No

Within about 2 hours you called Kapil Dev a great as well as overrated! Did you watch him play live or was he before your time?

By the time Jadeja retires, he will be considered among the best all rounders the game has seen backed by performances.

 

[Ab Fan]

Within about 2 hours you called Kapil Dev a great as well as overrated! Did you watch him play live or was he before your time?

By the time Jadeja retires, he will be considered among the best all rounders the game has seen backed by performances.

He is a great player for his time but there were dozen other in that era. I can literally name them. Anyone calling him greatest means he is clearly getting overrated and some dramatically emotional Indian fans do.

Your second point is true and hence there is no reason why Jadeja can’t surpass or isn’t about to surpass Kapil Dev in Test cricket.

 

[jeetu]

Among spin AR - Jadeja is GOAT.
In my list of i now rate him in Top 5 Test AR joining Sobers , Imran , Kallis and Miller.

 

[charlie007]

He is a great player for his time but there were dozen other in that era. I can literally name them. Anyone calling him greatest means he is clearly getting overrated and some dramatically emotional Indian fans do.

Your second point is true and hence there is no reason why Jadeja can’t surpass or isn’t about to surpass Kapil Dev in Test cricket.

Dozens? There were just 4 in the world in his time considered the best and always spoken about - Botham, Imran, Hadlee, and Kapil. His worth lies in much more than his numbers. He was the trendsetter for pace bowling in India and inspired the next generation to take up pace bowling. We used to open bowling with spinners, and even Gavaskar at one point, before a left arm medium pacer call Karsan Ghavri showed up on the scene.
At his peak, and among this celebrated quartet he also reached the number 1 Test ranking for all rounders.
Remember, he played 65-70 percent of his cricket on Indian pitches designed to draw games or spin friendly at best because we could hardly win any. Wins were exceptions than rule. And he was squeeky clean, no shady practices.

Having seen his era live, it hurts when people call him overrated without having seen him play live and what Indian cricket in his time was. No, he wasn’t the greatest in the world, but he was the greatest in India. But his worth goes way beyond his numbers.

There is also no need to bring down a great of his era just because you want to prop up another from today’s. There is enough space in the world to have many of them. And please, don’t call Kapil overrated, it’s disrespectful and it’s wrong.

 

[jeetu]

Dozens? There were just 4 in the world in his time considered the best and always spoken about - Botham, Imran, Hadlee, and Kapil. His worth lies in much more than his numbers. He was the trendsetter for pace bowling in India and inspired the next generation to take up pace bowling. We used to open bowling with spinners, and even Gavaskar at one point, before a left arm medium pacer call Karsan Ghavri showed up on the scene.
At his peak, and among this celebrated quartet he also reached the number 1 Test ranking for all rounders.
Remember, he played 65-70 percent of his cricket on Indian pitches designed to draw games or spin friendly at best because we could hardly win any. Wins were exceptions than rule. And he was squeeky clean, no shady practices.

Having seen his era live, it hurts when people call him overrated without having seen him play live and what Indian cricket in his time was. No, he wasn’t the greatest in the world, but he was the greatest in India. But his worth goes way beyond his numbers.

There is also no need to bring down a great of his era just because you want to prop up another from today’s. There is enough space in the world to have many of them. And please, don’t call Kapil overrated, it’s disrespectful and it’s wrong.

Importance of Kapil Dev for India is above all. India still has not produced an AR of his caliber even 30 after his retirement. In time India may get another Bumrah , Sachin , Gavaskar. But getting a fast bowling AR close to Kapil's quality seems very unlikely even in next 30 years.

 

[Ab Fan]

Dozens? There were just 4 in the world in his time considered the best and always spoken about - Botham, Imran, Hadlee, and Kapil. His worth lies in much more than his numbers. He was the trendsetter for pace bowling in India and inspired the next generation to take up pace bowling. We used to open bowling with spinners, and even Gavaskar at one point, before a left arm medium pacer call Karsan Ghavri showed up on the scene.
At his peak, and among this celebrated quartet he also reached the number 1 Test ranking for all rounders.
Remember, he played 65-70 percent of his cricket on Indian pitches designed to draw games or spin friendly at best because we could hardly win any. Wins were exceptions than rule. And he was squeeky clean, no shady practices.

Having seen his era live, it hurts when people call him overrated without having seen him play live and what Indian cricket in his time was. No, he wasn’t the greatest in the world, but he was the greatest in India. But his worth goes way beyond his numbers.

There is also no need to bring down a great of his era just because you want to prop up another from today’s. There is enough space in the world to have many of them. And please, don’t call Kapil overrated, it’s disrespectful and it’s wrong.

What trendsetter you are talking about? India could barely produce great fast bowlers after him, which means he failed to inspire the next generation the way Imran did and as a result Pakistan produced Wasim, Waqar and Shoaib. The only trend he set was to become such a big name in Indian cricket that nobody can drop you and you can play way past your expiry date. All the future Indian greats learnt this and followed the same advice.

Yes, he is an overrated all rounder. He was behind the other 3 ace all rounders of his era in tests - Imran, Hadlee, Botham. He never had a true peak where he averaged like 35-40 with bat or less than 25 with bowl. His away average because you feel his home pitches were tough-

Away bowl avg - 32
Away bat avg - 26

That’s nothing special. He played his 70% of matches on pitches designed for draw and yet he barely averages 26 away with bat. 8 tons in 134 tests. It only proves that although he was a good player but in reality, anyone making philosophical claims about his greatness have never watched his career fully as a neutral follower of the game but heard over exaggerated stories from media and their older ones.

 

[Ab Fan]

Also what I said was dozen players were great in his era. What do you mean by highlighting the 3 all rounders, @charlie007? Do you expect me to mention 12 all rounders from his era who were great like him? Did any era ever had 12 great all rounders even? Are there 12 all rounders in history that were greats?