Religious societies and poverty..

[DW44]

Came across this chart yesterday though it's pretty old (from late 2015):


For larger image: http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/2015/12/FT_15.12.17_religiousSalience.png

Unsurprisingly, the top of the list is dominated by some of the poorest, least developed countries in the world while the bottom of the list is mostly occupied by relatively prosperous states including some of the richest, most developed countries on the face of the planet.

The GDP per capita (PPP) and HDI figures for the top 10 and bottom 10:

(Note: HDI is human development index, a composite of education levels, income levels and life expectancy. The classifications are as follows: 0.8 or more is very high, 0.7-0.8 is high, 0.55 to 0.7 is medium and less than 0.55 is low. Global average per capita GDP is $15800).

Ethiopia - $1946 - 0.44
Senegal - $2577 - 0.46
Indonesia - $11720 - 0.68
Uganda - $2068 - 0.48
Pakistan - $5106 - 0.54
Burkina Faso - $1782 - 0.40
Tanzania - $3080 - 0.52
Nigeria - $5942 - 0.51
Philippines - $7728 - 0.67

The corresponding figures for the bottom 10, or least religious countries:

China - $15399 - 0.73
Japan - $41275 - 0.89
France - $42314 - 0.89
Australia - $48899 - 0.94
South Korea - $37740 - 0.90
Russia - $26490 - 0.80
UK - $42481 - 0.91
Spain - $36416 - 0.88
Germany - $48111 - 0.91
Ukraine - $8305 - 0.75

Ukraine is an outlier mainly because of the decades they spent as part of the Soviet Union but even they, despite their lower per capita GDP than Indonesia, the only member of the top 10 that has a higher per capita GDP than any member of the bottom ten, have a higher human development index reflecting the fact that education levels and healthcare there is superior to Indonesia.

The correlation between a given society's level of religiosity and it's level of economic progress is something that has been established for a long time but the causation has been a subject of debate for long. This correlation can best be observed in the United States, a continent sized country that is also ridiculously wealthy. Within the United States, there are great regional disparities and the poorest states like Mississippi, Arkansas and Alabama are visibly more religious than the richest ones on the coast, particularly the eastern seaboard with the likes of Massachusetts, Vermont and NH (the three least religious states and also three of the richest).

Depending on which side of the argument one falls on, you can hold one factor responsible for the prevalence of the other but in reality, it's somewhere in between with both religion and poverty feeding off of each other and perpetuating their hold. The question is what's everyone's take on how this relation works, what are the factors that push nations towards religion or poverty and to what extent do people think that this correlation really exists (that question is pertinent because this being PP, the majority position will likely be to deny the existence of any correlation)?

 

[CricketCartoons]

I tend to believe that poverty might push people to be more religious, but don't think the converse is true.

 

[yasir]

Same argument can be made in USA, states that are religious are on the wrong side of poverty and human development scale. Even within a country culture of religion holds you back even if better opportunities are accessible...

Within same society, as people get more educated, they become less religious and dogmatic in their beliefs and practices. Selling religious and dogmatic literature is not a thriving business in those segments of market, although they have lot more money at their disposal.

For example, Pakistanis in USA who are engineer sand doctors are not the target market for most peers and mosques. They get lot more money from Taxi drivers and working class, who have lot less money to spend. Means religiosity index among the population from same country or region drops down as masses are educated. Even in Bible Belt(here in USA), millennials are moving away from religion, they see that as backward cultural force that is holding their region from moving forward. Number of Atheist millennials are straggling high in USA across the board


Religiosity and prosperity has inverse relationship

 

[Varun]

Let's not get ahead of ourselves by labelling China a 'rich' country.

 

[DW44]

Let's not get ahead of ourselves by labelling China a 'rich' country.

It's rich compared to the countries on the other end of the spectrum. Anyway, they're an outlier just like Ukraine because of communism.

 

[hafeezrocks]

Why are the Oil Rich ME States not included in the Study ? Saudi, Qatar, UAE, Kuwait? Maybe it will make the study look more absurd than it already is.

 

[HussainRx8]

Came across this chart yesterday though it's pretty old (from late 2015):

View attachment 75570
For larger image: http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/2015/12/FT_15.12.17_religiousSalience.png

Unsurprisingly, the top of the list is dominated by some of the poorest, least developed countries in the world while the bottom of the list is mostly occupied by relatively prosperous states including some of the richest, most developed countries on the face of the planet.

The GDP per capita (PPP) and HDI figures for the top 10 and bottom 10:

(Note: HDI is human development index, a composite of education levels, income levels and life expectancy. The classifications are as follows: 0.8 or more is very high, 0.7-0.8 is high, 0.55 to 0.7 is medium and less than 0.55 is low. Global average per capita GDP is $15800).

Ethiopia - $1946 - 0.44
Senegal - $2577 - 0.46
Indonesia - $11720 - 0.68
Uganda - $2068 - 0.48
Pakistan - $5106 - 0.54
Burkina Faso - $1782 - 0.40
Tanzania - $3080 - 0.52
Nigeria - $5942 - 0.51
Philippines - $7728 - 0.67

The corresponding figures for the bottom 10, or least religious countries:

China - $15399 - 0.73
Japan - $41275 - 0.89
France - $42314 - 0.89
Australia - $48899 - 0.94
South Korea - $37740 - 0.90
Russia - $26490 - 0.80
UK - $42481 - 0.91
Spain - $36416 - 0.88
Germany - $48111 - 0.91
Ukraine - $8305 - 0.75

Ukraine is an outlier mainly because of the decades they spent as part of the Soviet Union but even they, despite their lower per capita GDP than Indonesia, the only member of the top 10 that has a higher per capita GDP than any member of the bottom ten, have a higher human development index reflecting the fact that education levels and healthcare there is superior to Indonesia.

The correlation between a given society's level of religiosity and it's level of economic progress is something that has been established for a long time but the causation has been a subject of debate for long. This correlation can best be observed in the United States, a continent sized country that is also ridiculously wealthy. Within the United States, there are great regional disparities and the poorest states like Mississippi, Arkansas and Alabama are visibly more religious than the richest ones on the coast, particularly the eastern seaboard with the likes of Massachusetts, Vermont and NH (the three least religious states and also three of the richest).

Depending on which side of the argument one falls on, you can hold one factor responsible for the prevalence of the other but in reality, it's somewhere in between with both religion and poverty feeding off of each other and perpetuating their hold. The question is what's everyone's take on how this relation works, what are the factors that push nations towards religion or poverty and to what extent do people think that this correlation really exists (that question is pertinent because this being PP, the majority position will likely be to deny the existence of any correlation)?

How do you know that's not spurious correlation? It doesn't take into account any of the control variables. It is based on point estimates taken from a few time series (religiousness and income/ HDI). All of which have strong underlying trends.

 

[Rafa]

China Rich )

 

[Leo23]

what is the proof that religion causes poverty? this is a weak analysis that does not prove causation. it is only association. similarly one could link the depression and lack of morals in the west to the lack of religion and too much liberty and freedom

 

[DW44]

How do you know that's not spurious correlation? It doesn't take into account any of the control variables. It is based on point estimates taken from a few time series (religiousness and income/ HDI). All of which have strong underlying trends.

Because the correlation exists consistently across a range of conditions and sociopolitical environments with a level of consistency that isextremely uncharacteristic of a spurious correlation. Religiosity, as an abstract concept, can't be quantified to a reasonable degree of precision but, in a globalized world, it's not a particularly difficult task to gauge the level of religiosity in a given society and self reported levels of religiosity are among the better, if not necessarily the best, ways to do so. There are obviously other factors at play, poor social and economic policies being primary among them (the two go hand in hand unfortunately so if you're failing on one front, it will hinder your efforts on the other albeit not greatly because the correlation is weak and manifests itself under certain conditions) but the question remains as to the extent to which religion plays a role in hindering social and economic progress. That question is what I'm asking here which seems reasonable enough.

 

[DW44]

China Rich )

Compared to the likes of Senegal, Nigeria and Pakistan, they might as well be the Warren Buffet of nation states. Either way, eight out of the ten countries on that list have a per capita GDP of $30'000 or more and a very high HDI. One country on the other list has a GDP per capita of over 10'000 and a medium HDI.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

South Korea is not religious?

 

[DW44]

South Korea is not religious?

19% of Koreans surveyed responded that religion is very important in their lives. 57% of Koreans, or more Koreans than Korean followers of all religions put together, have no religious affiliation.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

19% of Koreans surveyed responded that religion is very important in their lives. 57% of Koreans, or more Koreans than Korean followers of all religions put together, have no religious affiliation.

I don't believe the survey..... the rise of Christianity has been immense in the last 40-50 years.

 

[DW44]

what is the proof that religion causes poverty? this is a weak analysis that does not prove causation. it is only association.

No one's asserting that religion causes poverty. What's being explored here is the correlation between prevalence of poverty and levels of religiosity. Even if we assume that one does not necessarily cause the other, the two appear together consistently enough to at least warrant a discussion.

similarly one could link the depression and lack of morals in the west to the lack of religion and too much liberty and freedom

One could if one were ignorant. Religious countries, that are mostly third world countries with poor record keeping, don't keep statistics on the prevalence of mental health issues among the populace and the macho culture that exists in such countries (religious states are overwhelmingly patriarchal) results in massive under reporting of such issues so there would be no frame of reference to compare the levels of depression in the west to since no one knows of the extent to which it exists in religious states.

 

[boomboomcheema]

I don't believe the survey..... the rise of Christianity has been immense in the last 40-50 years.

From 1 % in 1950s, the Number of Christians in South Korea has risen to 30 % today, mainly due to huge network of evangelicals in the Country funded by Westerners.

Not saying they are devout followers but numbers are rising.

 

[DW44]

I don't believe the survey..... the rise of Christianity has been immense in the last 40-50 years.

Well then ignore the survey and refer to official statistics from Korea where 57% of the population are unaffiliated with any religious group. According to their most recent census (2015), 27.6%, or just over a quarter, of the population is Christian.

 

[Donal Cozzie]

No coincidence Ireland's transformation from a third world hellhole, the poorest state in Europe in the 1970's, to what it is today coincided with the Catholic Church losing its stranglehold on the country.

 

[DW44]

Why are the Oil Rich ME States not included in the Study ? Saudi, Qatar, UAE, Kuwait? Maybe it will make the study look more absurd than it already is.

The survey doesn't deal with the correlation between religion and poverty, it just compares levels of religiosity in different countries so including the gulf states would have no bearing on the results of the survey. That said, the wealth of oil states can't be compared to that of, say, Japan because unlike the Japanese who created their wealth, the Arabs sort of stumbled into it. There's a reason they're classified as developing countries despite their wealth being comparable to Western countries.

 

[Jin Chacha]

The relationship is a little too complex to make generalizations. It is hard to say if religiosity contributes to poverty or on the flip side prosperity leads to decline in religiosity. While there may be a correlation between religiosity and poverty it would be hard to prove causation. There are just too many external variables that can’t all be taken into account. Every country has a unique historical background which in most cases plays as important a role in hampering or promoting progress as religion. Historical factors such as colonialism or competing ideologies like capitalism vs communism have arguable played a more important role in determining development in the last couple of centuries than religion. The relationship between religion and poverty might have something to it in some cases but could be hiding other underlying factors in others.

 

[yasir]

I don't believe the survey..... the rise of Christianity has been immense in the last 40-50 years.

From 1 % in 1950s, the Number of Christians in South Korea has risen to 30 % today, mainly due to huge network of evangelicals in the Country funded by Westerners.

Not saying they are devout followers but numbers are rising.

Have you seen rise of Atheist, Nons, Agnostics in the World since WW-2? - Only place these Secular categories has not grown is in poor and muslim(because of laws) countries. Millineals are

Although the numbers in communist were for different reason then rest of the world. But polls clearly shows consistently that religion has lost his place in people's day to day life in many part of world. In global conservations: Climate Change, equality, rights of minorities (Gays, tolerance against other religions and ideas), religion is on the wrong side, they have very little to offer. Its easy to hijack religious platform than secular ones....Rise of religion is only in sectors where there is less hope and opportunity.

 

[GBK_Fan]

Correlation is not causation

 

[Rafa]

Have you seen rise of Atheist, Nons, Agnostics in the World since WW-2? - Only place these Secular categories has not grown is in poor and muslim(because of laws) countries. Millineals are

Although the numbers in communist were for different reason then rest of the world. But polls clearly shows consistently that religion has lost his place in people's day to day life in many part of world. In global conservations: Climate Change, equality, rights of minorities (Gays, tolerance against other religions and ideas), religion is on the wrong side, they have very little to offer. Its easy to hijack religious platform than secular ones....Rise of religion is only in sectors where there is less hope and opportunity.

Give it a rest man. Don't you ever get tired of bashing Army and Religion all the time.

You Goddam Atheists spend more time discussing about religion than most religious people.

 

[yasir]

Give it a rest man. Don't you ever get tired of bashing Army and Religion all the time.

You Goddam Atheists spend more time discussing about religion than most religious people.

I would once they are gone or irrelevant...Right now they are large part of the problem!!

 

[James]

I tend to believe that poverty might push people to be more religious, but don't think the converse is true.

Agree 100%. This is how I read the analysis in the OP.

 

[yasir]

I tend to believe that poverty might push people to be more religious, but don't think the converse is true.

One way to look at OP results: Poverty pushes people to be more religious, being passionate about religion is not helping them getting out of poverty... That pain medicine is not working, maybe they need something else

 

[CricketCartoons]

One way to look at OP results: Poverty pushes people to be more religious, being passionate about religion is not helping them getting out of poverty... That pain medicine is not working, maybe they need something else

So the issue is poverty, not religion. Religion may not be the medicine for poverty, but does work as a placebo.

Do you think if poor people become atheist, they might get out of poverty?

 

[yasir]

So the issue is poverty, not religion. Religion may not be the medicine for poverty, but does work as a placebo.

Do you think if poor people become atheist, they might get out of poverty?

Inorder for them to be Atheist, they have to be scientifically literate(scientifically literate does not necessarily means degree in Science BTW), that is much better cure for poverty, inspire them to learn their way out of poverty

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

So the issue is poverty, not religion. Religion may not be the medicine for poverty, but does work as a placebo.

Do you think if poor people become atheist, they might get out of poverty?

I feel that atheists will help relieve the poverty of the masses in countries like Pakistan, providing free education, laptops and access to Neil de Grasse Tyson videos which will help the starving masses to understand why the earth came about through a series of random events through the millennia. Unfortunately the stubborn fools on web forums take too much time to be convinced of the logic so atheist end up banging their heads against web walls arguing with a bunch of idiots.

 

[Hayreddin]

Inorder for them to be Atheist, they have to be scientifically literate(scientifically literate does not necessarily means degree in Science BTW), that is much better cure for poverty, inspire them to learn their way out of poverty

Being religious doesn't equate to being scientific illiterate. Is it really so hard for people to divide religion and science into different spheres? Religious people have had this problem for sometime and seems as though atheists have been happily continuing this idiocy. Congrats, nothing is solved, and only increased tribalism is gained.

One thing to note about you as an atheist, you proudly decry God for its primitivism. However, you still seem to believe in something "greater" like naturalism, scientific method, etc. You may not be a religious person anymore, but fundamentally you've just replaced one intangible concept with another. This isn't atheism.

 

[yasir]

Being religious doesn't equate to being scientific illiterate. Is it really so hard for people to divide religion and science into different spheres? Religious people have had this problem for sometime and seems as though atheists have been happily continuing this idiocy. Congrats, nothing is solved, and only increased tribalism is gained.

One thing to note about you as an atheist, you proudly decry God for its primitivism. However, you still seem to believe in something "greater" like naturalism, scientific method, etc. You may not be a religious person anymore, but fundamentally you've just replaced one intangible concept with another. This isn't atheism.

Religion and Science are fundamentally different, although they serve similar purposes, both try to decipher the unknown. One is belief first other is Evidence first. Science is an improvement on religion or faith, a different way to retaining and exploring knowledge. Tomorrow we may invent or come across a better tool to do the same thing, liberals will be more open to those ideas than conservatives that is for sure, till then Science is the best tool we got to demystify the unknown reliably.

Atheists are not completely closed minded on possibility of God, but we treat conventional religion with same level of seriousness as most adults the concept of tooth ferry, Santa and similar dogmas. There is absolutely no proof of any such entities, same is true with personal God of traditional religion. When concept like Allah, Jesus and Ram are going to be foundation of social and political policy framework, you are bound to get upset, specially when laws are made to protect such ideas. Its a political platform rather than some absolute truth, why we entertain such ideas at face value? We are not scared of war of ideas, but playing field needs to leveled first. In last few centuries that has devastating effect on many conservative ideas(religion, race, patriotism etc)...

 

[yasir]

Being religious doesn't equate to being scientific illiterate. Is it really so hard for people to divide religion and science into different spheres? Religious people have had this problem for sometime and seems as though atheists have been happily continuing this idiocy. Congrats, nothing is solved, and only increased tribalism is gained.

One thing to note about you as an atheist, you proudly decry God for its primitivism. However, you still seem to believe in something "greater" like naturalism, scientific method, etc. You may not be a religious person anymore, but fundamentally you've just replaced one intangible concept with another. This isn't atheism.

Atheism is not a religion, its rejection of all kinds of superstition and dogmas. Its not rejection of anything and everything under the sun for the sack of it...Atheism is more like anti-racism. Racism was done a lot by whites at one point in time, that does not means anti-racist were against whites(that is wrong way of looking at the problem), since dogma and superstition is dear to traditional religion the most, Atheist main fight in this day and age is with religion. Once religion becomes irrelevant or die down in its political power, Atheist movements will die down as well, much like anti-racist movements. Its not something that will go on and on for the sake of it...