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Respectfully, Pakistan must understand the new realities of hosting tours

Junaids

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I would like to emphasise at the outset that this thread is intended in a supportive way for Pakistan cricket. There will be none of my usual teasing/trolling, simply an attempt to explain to a Pakistani audience how the world has changed this last month, and how it affects them.

Rightly or wrongly, Pakistan is not in the Big Three. I showed in another thread that if bilateral ties and tours with India existed, the PCB would overtake Cricket Australia as the third richest Board. But that is not happening anytime soon.

In recent years there has been a reduction in domestic terrorism in Pakistan. You may or may not link that to non-Taliban rule in Afghanistan, but the bottom line is that touring Pakistan became safer, and aside from the Asian countries Zimbabwe, South Africa and - until Friday - New Zealand resumed touring the country.

Now we are at the point at which I need to make a few points you will not like.

1. Nobody gives the slightest consideration or respect to Pakistani claims of "Foolproof security".
The attack on the Sri Lankan team in Lahore ended that for a generation.

2. Nobody gives the slightest consideration to Pakistan's intelligence gathering agencies. No western country will trust them, and no western country would ever share sensitive intelligence with them.
Three things ensured that.
i) The 2009 Lahore attack on the Sri Lanka team, plus the 2002 Karachi attack in Inzamam's 329 Test.
ii) The fact that Osama Bin Laden was sheltered in Abbottabad of all places, and that the Americans were only able to successfully execute their attack by excluding the ISI, which is universally assumed to have sheltered and protected him.
iii) The fact that the Taliban - after winning zero seats out of 250 in the 2018 Afghan election - has returned to power with the clear patronage of the Pakistan political and intelligence elite.
The last of those points is the clearest one now. Two decades without Taliban rule had seen the Pakistan armed forces, intelligence services and political elite regain a small amount of credibility in western countries. But the return of the unwanted Taliban to power in Afghanistan has made their friends and allies into Pariahs once more.

3. Any western sports team will leave instantly if they are warned by their own security services of an imminent danger.

It's unrealistic to the point of fantasy to think that New Zealand, for example, would have responded to a warning of a threat by defying its own government and intelligence services. That's just inconceivable.

The same thing would have happened even before the Taliban returned to power. But now that they are back - and every Western government rightly or wrongly sees the ISI's fingerprints all over it - the chances that New Zealand Cricket would defy their own government and stay in response to Pakistani assurances, or share sensitive intelligence with Pakistan are simply ZERO.

4. Blaming your guests for obeying their own government's directions to go home after a reported immediate threat is politically dumb and counter-productive.

The fact that New Zealand was there, on matchday, shows that the Board, the players and the management staff were in Pakistan in good faith and intended to play. Even though they all know people like Mark Richardson and Craig McMillan and Stephen Fleming who have heard a bomb go off in Pakistan.

Anyone who seriously thinks that the 2021 team could have just ignored their government's orders is a fool. I expected more of Rameez Raja, and I am shocked by the stupidity - and self-damaging nature - of his comments.

5. The Pakistan Prime Minister's comments resonate around the cricket world.

Imran Khan is not a politician like any other. Every man - but also every woman - over the age of 40 in the cricket world knows exactly who he is. Most of us in the west giggle at his ludicrous misogynistic comments about women attracting rape by their clothing because we remember his romantic activities with English, American and Australian women. But every time he makes a comment like that he inadvertently positions western perceptions of Pakistan as more and more intertwined with our perceptions of Afghanistan. His comments and actions towards the Taliban are even more destructive to Pakistan cricket.

In summary, an unintended consequence for Pakistan of the return of the Taliban to power in Afghanistan is that Pakistan has returned to Pariah status in the cricket world.

So much good political work had taken place with the England and Wales Cricket Board and Cricket South Africa in particular in recent years. And it has all been fatally undermined by the resumption of Taliban rule, and by the perception that they were enabled in it by Pakistan's intelligence services.

My advice to the PCB is simple.

1. Continue the diplomatic work.
2. Continue to schedule international tours, but understand that there will be a very low threshold for their unilateral cancellation by the opposition.
3. Accept that when tours get cancelled for security reasons, the way to behave is to say "Of course we support the safety of the New Zealand team, and we would never think of asking them to remain here when they feel unsafe. they leave with our blessing, but we hope it was a false alarm, and we hope to host our dear Kiwi friends again soon".
4. Never, ever say "but we offered them presidential level security". Everyone knows what happened to the Sri Lankan cricketers and Benazir Bhutto, and if you tout your own security your guests will just laugh at you.
5. Never, ever say "but our intelligence services say there is no threat". That will simply attract private comments about Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban and provoke your guests further, and burn more bridges.
6. Above all, understand that having a Taliban government next door profoundly damages the status, stature, influence and power of Pakistan cricket. It's hard to imagine any one thing which could damage Pakistan cricket more.

One final comment. Any responses citing the Australian terrorist in Christchurch, or the Covid outbreak at India's Oval Test will only show that the writer has not addressed what I have put in this thread. It's actually not relevant, and it won't help Pakistan's cause.
 
NZ were well aware of the situation in Afg beforehand.

They sent their security experts who were satisfied with security arrangements and gave their clearance for the tour....and all of this happened after Taliban had regained power......so this Taliban excuse doesn't work here.


And if they can't trust Pakistani security agencies due to 2003/2009......then why even bother to come and waste time and resources, should've just declined to tour from outset.

By not sharing the details of the threat, they've further displayed their disregard for their hosts....(assuming the threats to be credible which I very much doubt)
 
Extremely simplistic OP, even if on surface it appears to be nuanced and sophisticated.
 
NZ were well aware of the situation in Afg beforehand.

They sent their security experts who were satisfied with security arrangements and gave their clearance for the tour....and all of this happened after Taliban had regained power......so this Taliban excuse doesn't work here.


And if they can't trust Pakistani security agencies due to 2003/2009......then why even bother to come and waste time and resources, should've just declined to tour from outset.

By not sharing the details of the threat, they've further displayed their disregard for their hosts....(assuming the threats to be credible which I very much doubt)

No offence, but you're not listening.

I'm respectfully advising you that Pakistan's credibility and power has been destroyed by the resumption of Taliban rule.

And I have explained very clearly why no western country is going to share sensitive intelligence with Pakistan.

Like Indians often do, you are conflating multiple different entities as "one country".

1. The Five Eyes intelligence alliance, of which New Zealand is a member.
2. The government of New Zealand.
3. The New Zealand Cricket Board.
4. The New Zealand cricket players and management.
5. The insurer of the New Zealand cricket tour of Pakistan.

The specific intelligence will have gone no further than the New Zealand intelligence service and the government. New Zealand Cricket would not be given it, and the players certainly would not.

I'm probably quite similar to the New Zealand cricketers. I wish Pakistan well in terms of sport and hope that they can host cricket when there is no danger.

But that doesn't mean that I respect the Pakistan intelligence services or their armed forces or their government, because to be honest I have zero respect for any of those three agencies.

If there's no risk I'm happy for games to happen. But I have no loyalty to or affiliation with those three agencies.
 
No offence, but you're not listening.

I'm respectfully advising you that Pakistan's credibility and power has been destroyed by the resumption of Taliban rule.

And I have explained very clearly why no western country is going to share sensitive intelligence with Pakistan.

Like Indians often do, you are conflating multiple different entities as "one country".

1. The Five Eyes intelligence alliance, of which New Zealand is a member.
2. The government of New Zealand.
3. The New Zealand Cricket Board.
4. The New Zealand cricket players and management.
5. The insurer of the New Zealand cricket tour of Pakistan.

The specific intelligence will have gone no further than the New Zealand intelligence service and the government. New Zealand Cricket would not be given it, and the players certainly would not.

I'm probably quite similar to the New Zealand cricketers. I wish Pakistan well in terms of sport and hope that they can host cricket when there is no danger.

But that doesn't mean that I respect the Pakistan intelligence services or their armed forces or their government, because to be honest I have zero respect for any of those three agencies.

If there's no risk I'm happy for games to happen. But I have no loyalty to or affiliation with those three agencies.

Mr. Expert on International relations, there are a lot more to it then meet the eye, every Tom duck and Harry knows it. It was just childish way of hurting Pak and teaching it a lesson by Anti Pak entities specially west after they had to ran from Afghanistan with tail between their legs. Anyways for our country's overall interest and safety this is no big payback. But i am just so amazed how they couldn't even manufacture a good enough fake threat which could have been so closed. The first world spy agencies. Ha
 
No offence, but you're not listening.

I'm respectfully advising you that Pakistan's credibility and power has been destroyed by the resumption of Taliban rule.

And I have explained very clearly why no western country is going to share sensitive intelligence with Pakistan.

Like Indians often do, you are conflating multiple different entities as "one country".

1. The Five Eyes intelligence alliance, of which New Zealand is a member.
2. The government of New Zealand.
3. The New Zealand Cricket Board.
4. The New Zealand cricket players and management.
5. The insurer of the New Zealand cricket tour of Pakistan.

The specific intelligence will have gone no further than the New Zealand intelligence service and the government. New Zealand Cricket would not be given it, and the players certainly would not.

I'm probably quite similar to the New Zealand cricketers. I wish Pakistan well in terms of sport and hope that they can host cricket when there is no danger.

But that doesn't mean that I respect the Pakistan intelligence services or their armed forces or their government, because to be honest I have zero respect for any of those three agencies.

If there's no risk I'm happy for games to happen. But I have no loyalty to or affiliation with those three agencies.

My point is....

Taliban didn't come into power just before the match which caused NZ to panic and run away.

NZ govt knew of the situation in Afg before agreeing to come.
If they can't trust Pakistani security agencies due to Taliban rule or any other reason, then they should've just declined the tour rather than quitting minutes before toss.

If NZ govt have their reasons for not disclosing the specifics of the threat.....then Pakistani fans have every right to question the credibility of that intelligence and deserve to know more.

Anyways, I don't blame NZC or players for this....we all know this issue has geo-politics written all over it.
 
Mr. Expert on International relations, there are a lot more to it then meet the eye, every Tom duck and Harry knows it. It was just childish way of hurting Pak and teaching it a lesson by Anti Pak entities specially west after they had to ran from Afghanistan with tail between their legs. Anyways for our country's overall interest and safety this is no big payback. But i am just so amazed how they couldn't even manufacture a good enough fake threat which could have been so closed. The first world spy agencies. Ha

Pakistan isn't a big entity for West worth to have "anti pak" stand. You are overestimating Pakistan here.
 
Pakistan isn't a big entity for West worth to have "anti pak" stand. You are overestimating Pakistan here.

Pakistan is such a small entity yet Indian channels and a population of 1.4 billion is obsessed with Pakistan; spewing hate all day and night.

The amount of whining I have witnessed on Indian channels after the Taliban victory in Afghanistan is laughable.
 
I would like to emphasise at the outset that this thread is intended in a supportive way for Pakistan cricket. There will be none of my usual teasing/trolling, simply an attempt to explain to a Pakistani audience how the world has changed this last month, and how it affects them.

Rightly or wrongly, Pakistan is not in the Big Three. I showed in another thread that if bilateral ties and tours with India existed, the PCB would overtake Cricket Australia as the third richest Board. But that is not happening anytime soon.

In recent years there has been a reduction in domestic terrorism in Pakistan. You may or may not link that to non-Taliban rule in Afghanistan, but the bottom line is that touring Pakistan became safer, and aside from the Asian countries Zimbabwe, South Africa and - until Friday - New Zealand resumed touring the country.

Now we are at the point at which I need to make a few points you will not like.

1. Nobody gives the slightest consideration or respect to Pakistani claims of "Foolproof security".
The attack on the Sri Lankan team in Lahore ended that for a generation.

2. Nobody gives the slightest consideration to Pakistan's intelligence gathering agencies. No western country will trust them, and no western country would ever share sensitive intelligence with them.
Three things ensured that.
i) The 2009 Lahore attack on the Sri Lanka team, plus the 2002 Karachi attack in Inzamam's 329 Test.
ii) The fact that Osama Bin Laden was sheltered in Abbottabad of all places, and that the Americans were only able to successfully execute their attack by excluding the ISI, which is universally assumed to have sheltered and protected him.
iii) The fact that the Taliban - after winning zero seats out of 250 in the 2018 Afghan election - has returned to power with the clear patronage of the Pakistan political and intelligence elite.
The last of those points is the clearest one now. Two decades without Taliban rule had seen the Pakistan armed forces, intelligence services and political elite regain a small amount of credibility in western countries. But the return of the unwanted Taliban to power in Afghanistan has made their friends and allies into Pariahs once more.

3. Any western sports team will leave instantly if they are warned by their own security services of an imminent danger.

It's unrealistic to the point of fantasy to think that New Zealand, for example, would have responded to a warning of a threat by defying its own government and intelligence services. That's just inconceivable.

The same thing would have happened even before the Taliban returned to power. But now that they are back - and every Western government rightly or wrongly sees the ISI's fingerprints all over it - the chances that New Zealand Cricket would defy their own government and stay in response to Pakistani assurances, or share sensitive intelligence with Pakistan are simply ZERO.

4. Blaming your guests for obeying their own government's directions to go home after a reported immediate threat is politically dumb and counter-productive.

The fact that New Zealand was there, on matchday, shows that the Board, the players and the management staff were in Pakistan in good faith and intended to play. Even though they all know people like Mark Richardson and Craig McMillan and Stephen Fleming who have heard a bomb go off in Pakistan.

Anyone who seriously thinks that the 2021 team could have just ignored their government's orders is a fool. I expected more of Rameez Raja, and I am shocked by the stupidity - and self-damaging nature - of his comments.

5. The Pakistan Prime Minister's comments resonate around the cricket world.

Imran Khan is not a politician like any other. Every man - but also every woman - over the age of 40 in the cricket world knows exactly who he is. Most of us in the west giggle at his ludicrous misogynistic comments about women attracting rape by their clothing because we remember his romantic activities with English, American and Australian women. But every time he makes a comment like that he inadvertently positions western perceptions of Pakistan as more and more intertwined with our perceptions of Afghanistan. His comments and actions towards the Taliban are even more destructive to Pakistan cricket.

In summary, an unintended consequence for Pakistan of the return of the Taliban to power in Afghanistan is that Pakistan has returned to Pariah status in the cricket world.

So much good political work had taken place with the England and Wales Cricket Board and Cricket South Africa in particular in recent years. And it has all been fatally undermined by the resumption of Taliban rule, and by the perception that they were enabled in it by Pakistan's intelligence services.

My advice to the PCB is simple.

1. Continue the diplomatic work.
2. Continue to schedule international tours, but understand that there will be a very low threshold for their unilateral cancellation by the opposition.
3. Accept that when tours get cancelled for security reasons, the way to behave is to say "Of course we support the safety of the New Zealand team, and we would never think of asking them to remain here when they feel unsafe. they leave with our blessing, but we hope it was a false alarm, and we hope to host our dear Kiwi friends again soon".
4. Never, ever say "but we offered them presidential level security". Everyone knows what happened to the Sri Lankan cricketers and Benazir Bhutto, and if you tout your own security your guests will just laugh at you.
5. Never, ever say "but our intelligence services say there is no threat". That will simply attract private comments about Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban and provoke your guests further, and burn more bridges.
6. Above all, understand that having a Taliban government next door profoundly damages the status, stature, influence and power of Pakistan cricket. It's hard to imagine any one thing which could damage Pakistan cricket more.

One final comment. Any responses citing the Australian terrorist in Christchurch, or the Covid outbreak at India's Oval Test will only show that the writer has not addressed what I have put in this thread. It's actually not relevant, and it won't help Pakistan's cause.

Very well written

Though I would say there are lots of counter arguments but would be needless to go into those details

One of the supporting argument is Musharraf as sitting president with all his president level security narrowly escaped the attacks, this is why Western agencies so called 5 eyes won't accept our assurances at least

Let's accept the reality, we as Pakistan are living in a different world order and geopolitics.

For last 20 years we have not been able to build a 5 star hotel near the cricket ground, its utterand utter failure on part of the system.

Let's focus on the controllables!! Thats the hardest lesson to learn rather than endless rhetoric that Pak is a safe country.
 
The OP will give us the same lecture in 2050 by when Pakistani Cricket Team will lag behind 50-60 years vs the rest of the world
 
Excellent post by OP. Reflects reality of situation and gives mature way of handling it.
 
That's clearly your own opinion. Their antics at FATF would prove otherwise.

Suspicion isn't an "anti stand".

Anti is when you will be discredited no matter what.

In case of FATF, Pakistan has a long history of shady financing hence, it will take more time to build the damaged reputation.

This isn't anti. This is common human behavior similar to where you doubt a thief for his actions even in future.
 
Pakistan is such a small entity yet Indian channels and a population of 1.4 billion is obsessed with Pakistan; spewing hate all day and night.

The amount of whining I have witnessed on Indian channels after the Taliban victory in Afghanistan is laughable.

I said "west". Its surprising that one can miss such simple concepts here.
 
Suspicion isn't an "anti stand".

Anti is when you will be discredited no matter what.

In case of FATF, Pakistan has a long history of shady financing hence, it will take more time to build the damaged reputation.

This isn't anti. This is common human behavior similar to where you doubt a thief for his actions even in future.

Targeting Pakistan despite them admitting Pakistan has largely completed the requested actions, and then changing goal posts is evidence. It's quite obvious what's going on. Many Indians have even admitted this in the time pass forum.
 
Targeting Pakistan despite them admitting Pakistan has largely completed the requested actions, and then changing goal posts is evidence. It's quite obvious what's going on. Many Indians have even admitted this in the time pass forum.

You take arguments what suits you. That's called biased perspective aided by self victimization upon conspiracy theories.

You will disregard arguments from the same posters in a different subject if it doesn't suit your agenda.
 
You take arguments what suits you. That's called biased perspective aided by self victimization upon conspiracy theories.

You will disregard arguments from the same posters in a different subject if it doesn't suit your agenda.

No, what you are doing is called gaslighting aka lying. You didn't even address my points about Pakistan having completed almost all the asks as admitted by FATF. The anti-Pakistan behaviour is so obvious even many of the BJP lovers in time pass happily admit it.
 
Pakistan isn't a big entity for West worth to have "anti pak" stand. You are overestimating Pakistan here.
Certainly isn't, but can Pakistan become a larger political entity?

Yes. With US out of the region, and the fact that we have let them know we aren't going to listen to their advice, do you not see the West struggling to hold out?

What's this stuff they've done with China recently?

Mark my words: if the Taliban ensure peace and stability in their country for the next decade, the whole region will gain an economic uplift. China is going to steer the reconstruction of Afghanistan.
 
I would like to emphasise at the outset that this thread is intended in a supportive way for Pakistan cricket. There will be none of my usual teasing/trolling, simply an attempt to explain to a Pakistani audience how the world has changed this last month, and how it affects them.

Rightly or wrongly, Pakistan is not in the Big Three. I showed in another thread that if bilateral ties and tours with India existed, the PCB would overtake Cricket Australia as the third richest Board. But that is not happening anytime soon.

In recent years there has been a reduction in domestic terrorism in Pakistan. You may or may not link that to non-Taliban rule in Afghanistan, but the bottom line is that touring Pakistan became safer, and aside from the Asian countries Zimbabwe, South Africa and - until Friday - New Zealand resumed touring the country.

Now we are at the point at which I need to make a few points you will not like.

1. Nobody gives the slightest consideration or respect to Pakistani claims of "Foolproof security".
The attack on the Sri Lankan team in Lahore ended that for a generation.

2. Nobody gives the slightest consideration to Pakistan's intelligence gathering agencies. No western country will trust them, and no western country would ever share sensitive intelligence with them.
Three things ensured that.
i) The 2009 Lahore attack on the Sri Lanka team, plus the 2002 Karachi attack in Inzamam's 329 Test.
ii) The fact that Osama Bin Laden was sheltered in Abbottabad of all places, and that the Americans were only able to successfully execute their attack by excluding the ISI, which is universally assumed to have sheltered and protected him.
iii) The fact that the Taliban - after winning zero seats out of 250 in the 2018 Afghan election - has returned to power with the clear patronage of the Pakistan political and intelligence elite.
The last of those points is the clearest one now. Two decades without Taliban rule had seen the Pakistan armed forces, intelligence services and political elite regain a small amount of credibility in western countries. But the return of the unwanted Taliban to power in Afghanistan has made their friends and allies into Pariahs once more.

3. Any western sports team will leave instantly if they are warned by their own security services of an imminent danger.

It's unrealistic to the point of fantasy to think that New Zealand, for example, would have responded to a warning of a threat by defying its own government and intelligence services. That's just inconceivable.

The same thing would have happened even before the Taliban returned to power. But now that they are back - and every Western government rightly or wrongly sees the ISI's fingerprints all over it - the chances that New Zealand Cricket would defy their own government and stay in response to Pakistani assurances, or share sensitive intelligence with Pakistan are simply ZERO.

4. Blaming your guests for obeying their own government's directions to go home after a reported immediate threat is politically dumb and counter-productive.

The fact that New Zealand was there, on matchday, shows that the Board, the players and the management staff were in Pakistan in good faith and intended to play. Even though they all know people like Mark Richardson and Craig McMillan and Stephen Fleming who have heard a bomb go off in Pakistan.

Anyone who seriously thinks that the 2021 team could have just ignored their government's orders is a fool. I expected more of Rameez Raja, and I am shocked by the stupidity - and self-damaging nature - of his comments.

5. The Pakistan Prime Minister's comments resonate around the cricket world.

Imran Khan is not a politician like any other. Every man - but also every woman - over the age of 40 in the cricket world knows exactly who he is. Most of us in the west giggle at his ludicrous misogynistic comments about women attracting rape by their clothing because we remember his romantic activities with English, American and Australian women. But every time he makes a comment like that he inadvertently positions western perceptions of Pakistan as more and more intertwined with our perceptions of Afghanistan. His comments and actions towards the Taliban are even more destructive to Pakistan cricket.

In summary, an unintended consequence for Pakistan of the return of the Taliban to power in Afghanistan is that Pakistan has returned to Pariah status in the cricket world.

So much good political work had taken place with the England and Wales Cricket Board and Cricket South Africa in particular in recent years. And it has all been fatally undermined by the resumption of Taliban rule, and by the perception that they were enabled in it by Pakistan's intelligence services.

My advice to the PCB is simple.

1. Continue the diplomatic work.
2. Continue to schedule international tours, but understand that there will be a very low threshold for their unilateral cancellation by the opposition.
3. Accept that when tours get cancelled for security reasons, the way to behave is to say "Of course we support the safety of the New Zealand team, and we would never think of asking them to remain here when they feel unsafe. they leave with our blessing, but we hope it was a false alarm, and we hope to host our dear Kiwi friends again soon".
4. Never, ever say "but we offered them presidential level security". Everyone knows what happened to the Sri Lankan cricketers and Benazir Bhutto, and if you tout your own security your guests will just laugh at you.
5. Never, ever say "but our intelligence services say there is no threat". That will simply attract private comments about Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban and provoke your guests further, and burn more bridges.
6. Above all, understand that having a Taliban government next door profoundly damages the status, stature, influence and power of Pakistan cricket. It's hard to imagine any one thing which could damage Pakistan cricket more.

One final comment. Any responses citing the Australian terrorist in Christchurch, or the Covid outbreak at India's Oval Test will only show that the writer has not addressed what I have put in this thread. It's actually not relevant, and it won't help Pakistan's cause.

Good post but I still have to disagree with some things.

Firstly, PCB, ISI, and the Pakistani government have every right to demand this intelligence. Whatever was supposed to happen could happen again, and we need the intelligence to be prepared for it. Their refusal to provide this evidence means one of two things at least:

1.) Their evidence was not strong enough to make the decision they did, and this was an intentional political move.
2.) They want to keep the evidence away from us due to distrust which you already pointed out.

My stance is quite simple: I cannot care less for what their government says about sharing evidence. This is being done intentionally to make a statement.

For PCB, the first step comes by making a statement to address the situation. In that statement, I would call out NZC by explaining how disgraceful their decision was and the damages we have experienced.

We are well within our rights to request compensation if they cannot provide any iota of reasoning.

As far as all the evidence stands at this point, the security was large in number and visible to everyone. Hence our claim stands stronger unless they show us this evidence.

If they don't want to share this information, fine, they should keep it to themselves. But they will have to pay us for the damages they have created.

I would personally go as far to shut all bilateral cricket with New Zealand for 3 years, we hardly play then either way so it won't matter.
 
A brilliant and very important post by Junaids.

Pakistanis are well-known for being the most delusional people on earth. This is not just limited to cricket but politics as well.

We have shown that we are incapable of accepting the reality and fail to bridge the gap between how we want the world to see us and how the world actually see us.

The bitter reality is that Pakistan does not have a shred of credibility in the international arena.

No one has any faith in what we say and what we do. We are known as a country that is always lying and working on an agenda that is benefiting terrorist and rogue organizations.

The OBL fiasco, the attack on the Sri Lankan team, the blatant support for Taliban and the protection for several UN designated terrorists and terrorist organizations has taken care of that.

Pakistan’s reputation is no different to that of Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq etc.

Teams like Australia, England and New Zealand will never give us the benefit of doubt and they have no reason to. They will only play in Pakistan if they are 100% convinced that there is no security threat.

The slightest threat is more than enough for these teams to act accordingly and protect themselves.

We thump our chests over how great our intelligence is and it should be trusted. However, on the other hand, we have tried to fool the world into believing that our great intelligence had no clue about the fact that OBL, the most wanted man in the world, was living right next to a military base in Pakistan.
 
Targeting Pakistan despite them admitting Pakistan has largely completed the requested actions, and then changing goal posts is evidence. It's quite obvious what's going on. Many Indians have even admitted this in the time pass forum.

For 20 years Pakistan armed the Taliban (specifically the Haqqanis) which killed US soldiers and other Western soldiers, while claiming otherwise and taking US aid money.

If Pakistan is not going to be honest with the West, it should not expect the West will be honest about why it remains on the FATF lists.
 
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For 20 years Pakistan armed the Taliban (specifically the Haqqanis) which killed US soldiers and other Western soldiers, while claiming otherwise and taking US aid money.

If Pakistan is not going to be honest with the West, it should not expect the West will be honest about why it remains on the FATF lists.

Not interested in arguing why you think Pakistan should be on FATF grey list but this is essentially proves my point. It's all a political theatre.
 
No, what you are doing is called gaslighting aka lying. You didn't even address my points about Pakistan having completed almost all the asks as admitted by FATF. The anti-Pakistan behaviour is so obvious even many of the BJP lovers in time pass happily admit it.

I already addressed it. If a thief has long history of stealing, then one will always doubt his actions in future. You may call it unfair but that's how life it is. If you don't want to go through it, then you shouldn't have had yourself involved in those illegal actions in the first place. This isn't an "anti stand" but repercussions of past behavior.

If you have cheated on your spouse, then your spouse will always doubt you even if you aren't cheating. If you can't accept it, you simply are denying the reality.
 
Certainly isn't, but can Pakistan become a larger political entity?

Yes. With US out of the region, and the fact that we have let them know we aren't going to listen to their advice, do you not see the West struggling to hold out?

What's this stuff they've done with China recently?

Mark my words: if the Taliban ensure peace and stability in their country for the next decade, the whole region will gain an economic uplift. China is going to steer the reconstruction of Afghanistan.

There are lots "ifs" in your equation and even if just one "if" doesn't go your way, the whole scenario that you are building will collapse. With such vulnerability in the equations itself, more or less, it is evident that there is no sustainability even if somehow it does happen.
 
There are lots "ifs" in your equation and even if just one "if" doesn't go your way, the whole scenario that you are building will collapse. With such vulnerability in the equations itself, more or less, it is evident that there is no sustainability even if somehow it does happen.

I only see one "if", and even if it doesn't pan out it won't be any worse than the previous Afghan government.
 
I would like to emphasise at the outset that this thread is intended in a supportive way for Pakistan cricket. There will be none of my usual teasing/trolling, simply an attempt to explain to a Pakistani audience how the world has changed this last month, and how it affects them.

Rightly or wrongly, Pakistan is not in the Big Three. I showed in another thread that if bilateral ties and tours with India existed, the PCB would overtake Cricket Australia as the third richest Board. But that is not happening anytime soon.

In recent years there has been a reduction in domestic terrorism in Pakistan. You may or may not link that to non-Taliban rule in Afghanistan, but the bottom line is that touring Pakistan became safer, and aside from the Asian countries Zimbabwe, South Africa and - until Friday - New Zealand resumed touring the country.

Now we are at the point at which I need to make a few points you will not like.

1. Nobody gives the slightest consideration or respect to Pakistani claims of "Foolproof security".
The attack on the Sri Lankan team in Lahore ended that for a generation.

2. Nobody gives the slightest consideration to Pakistan's intelligence gathering agencies. No western country will trust them, and no western country would ever share sensitive intelligence with them.
Three things ensured that.
i) The 2009 Lahore attack on the Sri Lanka team, plus the 2002 Karachi attack in Inzamam's 329 Test.
ii) The fact that Osama Bin Laden was sheltered in Abbottabad of all places, and that the Americans were only able to successfully execute their attack by excluding the ISI, which is universally assumed to have sheltered and protected him.
iii) The fact that the Taliban - after winning zero seats out of 250 in the 2018 Afghan election - has returned to power with the clear patronage of the Pakistan political and intelligence elite.
The last of those points is the clearest one now. Two decades without Taliban rule had seen the Pakistan armed forces, intelligence services and political elite regain a small amount of credibility in western countries. But the return of the unwanted Taliban to power in Afghanistan has made their friends and allies into Pariahs once more.

3. Any western sports team will leave instantly if they are warned by their own security services of an imminent danger.

It's unrealistic to the point of fantasy to think that New Zealand, for example, would have responded to a warning of a threat by defying its own government and intelligence services. That's just inconceivable.

The same thing would have happened even before the Taliban returned to power. But now that they are back - and every Western government rightly or wrongly sees the ISI's fingerprints all over it - the chances that New Zealand Cricket would defy their own government and stay in response to Pakistani assurances, or share sensitive intelligence with Pakistan are simply ZERO.

4. Blaming your guests for obeying their own government's directions to go home after a reported immediate threat is politically dumb and counter-productive.

The fact that New Zealand was there, on matchday, shows that the Board, the players and the management staff were in Pakistan in good faith and intended to play. Even though they all know people like Mark Richardson and Craig McMillan and Stephen Fleming who have heard a bomb go off in Pakistan.

Anyone who seriously thinks that the 2021 team could have just ignored their government's orders is a fool. I expected more of Rameez Raja, and I am shocked by the stupidity - and self-damaging nature - of his comments.

5. The Pakistan Prime Minister's comments resonate around the cricket world.

Imran Khan is not a politician like any other. Every man - but also every woman - over the age of 40 in the cricket world knows exactly who he is. Most of us in the west giggle at his ludicrous misogynistic comments about women attracting rape by their clothing because we remember his romantic activities with English, American and Australian women. But every time he makes a comment like that he inadvertently positions western perceptions of Pakistan as more and more intertwined with our perceptions of Afghanistan. His comments and actions towards the Taliban are even more destructive to Pakistan cricket.

In summary, an unintended consequence for Pakistan of the return of the Taliban to power in Afghanistan is that Pakistan has returned to Pariah status in the cricket world.

So much good political work had taken place with the England and Wales Cricket Board and Cricket South Africa in particular in recent years. And it has all been fatally undermined by the resumption of Taliban rule, and by the perception that they were enabled in it by Pakistan's intelligence services.

My advice to the PCB is simple.

1. Continue the diplomatic work.
2. Continue to schedule international tours, but understand that there will be a very low threshold for their unilateral cancellation by the opposition.
3. Accept that when tours get cancelled for security reasons, the way to behave is to say "Of course we support the safety of the New Zealand team, and we would never think of asking them to remain here when they feel unsafe. they leave with our blessing, but we hope it was a false alarm, and we hope to host our dear Kiwi friends again soon".
4. Never, ever say "but we offered them presidential level security". Everyone knows what happened to the Sri Lankan cricketers and Benazir Bhutto, and if you tout your own security your guests will just laugh at you.
5. Never, ever say "but our intelligence services say there is no threat". That will simply attract private comments about Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban and provoke your guests further, and burn more bridges.
6. Above all, understand that having a Taliban government next door profoundly damages the status, stature, influence and power of Pakistan cricket. It's hard to imagine any one thing which could damage Pakistan cricket more.

One final comment. Any responses citing the Australian terrorist in Christchurch, or the Covid outbreak at India's Oval Test will only show that the writer has not addressed what I have put in this thread. It's actually not relevant, and it won't help Pakistan's cause.

I'll be blunt.

You do like Pakistan, but living in Australia ( I would presume) has warped your image of Pakistan, hence you are trying to understand why the West doesn't agree to Pakistani ideology.

If you have travelled all over the world, you would have understood how some cities are safer than others and some countries are safer than others. But NO COUNTRY can say they have foolproof security. The number of terror attacks in 200 countries of the world can vouch that even the best plans can be demolished in an instant.

1. Clearly they do, otherwise NZ wouldn't even have arrived in the country in the first place if they didn't believe in OUR FOOLPROOF security.

2. Wow, what a solution. Continue the tours but be at mercy of powers who can cancel with vengeance whenever and however they want. Then why continue to schedule? Why become a pawn in a game where the two kings are playing their own game to be the last man standing? Better to leave the chessboard altogether by either not inviting or by inviting and getting a "force majeure" class WHICH DOES NOT INCLUDE BAD INTEL.

3. Accept that IF tour is to be cancelled at such an extreme notice, then the guest should PROVIDE CREDIBLE EVIDENCE that the reason for the tour to be cancelled was unavoidable. IF NOT, the guest has to compensate Pakistan for the cost of the tour because the guest ACTED UNILATERALLY OBLIVIOUS TO the basic ethics.

4. Again, no security is fool proof. Anyone can get attacked anywhere but when you say PRESIDENTIAL LEVEL, you are basically giving them confidence that there will be troops all around you. Thats the best you can offer. Whether it's good enough or not, is the guest country's call. But they should make the call BEFORE TOURING. Not in the MIDDLE OF THE TOUR.

5. Pakistani ISI may not be open and candid but it is the best intelligence service ever. The fact you don't think so, hardly matters. That's the reason 5 eyes, declines to share things with ISI.

6. You don't choose your neighbors. If a man with a machine gun starts living next to your house, you can change your house but you can't throw the man out of his house. When it comes to the country, if Taliban have started being there, tough ****. We can't do much.

What we can do IS GIVE ASSURANCES THAT WE WILL PROTECT the players and foreign teams.

If that's not enough, tough.

That's what Pakistan should do from now on.

Not the meek surrender that you envisioned for us.
 
I'll be blunt.

You do like Pakistan, but living in Australia ( I would presume) has warped your image of Pakistan, hence you are trying to understand why the West doesn't agree to Pakistani ideology.

If you have travelled all over the world, you would have understood how some cities are safer than others and some countries are safer than others. But NO COUNTRY can say they have foolproof security. The number of terror attacks in 200 countries of the world can vouch that even the best plans can be demolished in an instant.

1. Clearly they do, otherwise NZ wouldn't even have arrived in the country in the first place if they didn't believe in OUR FOOLPROOF security.

2. Wow, what a solution. Continue the tours but be at mercy of powers who can cancel with vengeance whenever and however they want. Then why continue to schedule? Why become a pawn in a game where the two kings are playing their own game to be the last man standing? Better to leave the chessboard altogether by either not inviting or by inviting and getting a "force majeure" class WHICH DOES NOT INCLUDE BAD INTEL.

3. Accept that IF tour is to be cancelled at such an extreme notice, then the guest should PROVIDE CREDIBLE EVIDENCE that the reason for the tour to be cancelled was unavoidable. IF NOT, the guest has to compensate Pakistan for the cost of the tour because the guest ACTED UNILATERALLY OBLIVIOUS TO the basic ethics.

4. Again, no security is fool proof. Anyone can get attacked anywhere but when you say PRESIDENTIAL LEVEL, you are basically giving them confidence that there will be troops all around you. Thats the best you can offer. Whether it's good enough or not, is the guest country's call. But they should make the call BEFORE TOURING. Not in the MIDDLE OF THE TOUR.

5. Pakistani ISI may not be open and candid but it is the best intelligence service ever. The fact you don't think so, hardly matters. That's the reason 5 eyes, declines to share things with ISI.

6. You don't choose your neighbors. If a man with a machine gun starts living next to your house, you can change your house but you can't throw the man out of his house. When it comes to the country, if Taliban have started being there, tough ****. We can't do much.

What we can do IS GIVE ASSURANCES THAT WE WILL PROTECT the players and foreign teams.

If that's not enough, tough.

That's what Pakistan should do from now on.

Not the meek surrender that you envisioned for us.

I understand your points, but my response is blunt too.

No team from an affluent country will ever tour under such conditions.

You may feel proud taking that stance (and you clearly are if you think the ISI is the world’s best intelligence agency).

But any team considering a tour would just go “no thanks”.
 
Good post Junaids.

Pakistan fans have a right to be angry but they need to direct it at the threat or alledged threat not at NZC. Whether it is credible or not, it was relayed to the NZ government as serious and immediate.

NZC are not privy to the details of the threat and they are absolutely obliged to follow government advice. It would be foolish to ignore that regardless of whether you think it was real or false.

We sent a team over with full intentions of playing. What on earth do think we would have to gain from this abandonment? NZC is not a political organization they are in the business of cricket. They certain wouldnt want this at all. We love playing Pakistan.

If this intell is real then blame the party that had these evil plans. If you think it is false intell then direct your anger at the US or UK because you can be sure it didnt come from the other 3 members of the five eyes.
 
Yes, as opposed to the 5 eyes intelligence who god knows by now has droned hundreds or thousands of innocent civilians and weddings. The one that was publicly exposed just this week is an example. All of such strikes were done on "credible intelligence" presumably.
 
Yes, as opposed to the 5 eyes intelligence who god knows by now has droned hundreds or thousands of innocent civilians and weddings. The one that was publicly exposed just this week is an example. All of such strikes were done on "credible intelligence" presumably.

The five eyes is an agreement to share information it is not a military alliance. Do not associate NZ with drone strikes we barely have an air force.
 
I'll be blunt.

You do like Pakistan, but living in Australia ( I would presume) has warped your image of Pakistan, hence you are trying to understand why the West doesn't agree to Pakistani ideology.

If you have travelled all over the world, you would have understood how some cities are safer than others and some countries are safer than others. But NO COUNTRY can say they have foolproof security. The number of terror attacks in 200 countries of the world can vouch that even the best plans can be demolished in an instant.

1. Clearly they do, otherwise NZ wouldn't even have arrived in the country in the first place if they didn't believe in OUR FOOLPROOF security.

2. Wow, what a solution. Continue the tours but be at mercy of powers who can cancel with vengeance whenever and however they want. Then why continue to schedule? Why become a pawn in a game where the two kings are playing their own game to be the last man standing? Better to leave the chessboard altogether by either not inviting or by inviting and getting a "force majeure" class WHICH DOES NOT INCLUDE BAD INTEL.

3. Accept that IF tour is to be cancelled at such an extreme notice, then the guest should PROVIDE CREDIBLE EVIDENCE that the reason for the tour to be cancelled was unavoidable. IF NOT, the guest has to compensate Pakistan for the cost of the tour because the guest ACTED UNILATERALLY OBLIVIOUS TO the basic ethics.

4. Again, no security is fool proof. Anyone can get attacked anywhere but when you say PRESIDENTIAL LEVEL, you are basically giving them confidence that there will be troops all around you. Thats the best you can offer. Whether it's good enough or not, is the guest country's call. But they should make the call BEFORE TOURING. Not in the MIDDLE OF THE TOUR.

5. Pakistani ISI may not be open and candid but it is the best intelligence service ever. The fact you don't think so, hardly matters. That's the reason 5 eyes, declines to share things with ISI.

6. You don't choose your neighbors. If a man with a machine gun starts living next to your house, you can change your house but you can't throw the man out of his house. When it comes to the country, if Taliban have started being there, tough ****. We can't do much.

What we can do IS GIVE ASSURANCES THAT WE WILL PROTECT the players and foreign teams.

If that's not enough, tough.

That's what Pakistan should do from now on.

Not the meek surrender that you envisioned for us.

Was ISI aware of OBL’s presence in Abbottabad, right next to a military base?

If yes, why were they hiding him? Why would countries trust the intelligence and the security apparatus of a country that was providing protecting to the most famous terrorist and most wanted man in the world?

If ISI was not aware and only found out when American forces raided his home in the middle of the night, what does this say about the competence of the “best intelligence service ever”?

How come the best intelligence service ever couldn’t find out that the most wanted man in the world, the most infamous terrorist, was living right next to a military base in Abbottabad.

The OBL episode completely destroyed whatever credibility Pakistan was left with it. No matter which narrative you pick - Pakistan did or did not know about his presence - does not make Pakistan look good in the slightest.
 
The five eyes is an agreement to share information it is not a military alliance. Do not associate NZ with drone strikes we barely have an air force.

My response was to Junaids talking down ISI while not mentioning 5 eyes is not exactly known for having good intelligence gather capabilities. Their capabilities within Pakistan are probably even less strong then Afghanistan when they actually had ground presence in Afghanistan.
 
My response was to Junaids talking down ISI while not mentioning 5 eyes is not exactly known for having good intelligence gather capabilities. Their capabilities within Pakistan are probably even less strong then Afghanistan when they actually had ground presence in Afghanistan.

Ok fair enough. I dont disagree.

In fact i think its entirely possible NZ was given bad or embelished intel knowing we will always react with immediate caution. It is no gain to NZ for this to happen but im sure it benefits other parties.
 
Ok fair enough. I dont disagree.

In fact i think its entirely possible NZ was given bad or embelished intel knowing we will always react with immediate caution. It is no gain to NZ for this to happen but im sure it benefits other parties.

It may not be bad intelligence intentionally. I don't think US meant to kill 10 civilians the other day. But they did, and they did based on credible intelligence.
 
Pak cricket is paying the price of things being done by Pak Govt.. Pak Govt. is ready to pay any price including cricket getting affected a lot but wont do anything to improve its image globally and change its stand regarding terrorist groups and its leaders with UN designated terrorists like Maulana Masood Azhar and Hafiz Saeed protected by Pak army and no action against them. Its all being watched by world and they know that whose side Pak Govt. has taken. Cricket seems to be last on their list, infact not on the list at all. No surprises as west keeps boycotting them and now has even started to have a tough stance against them. One cant expect things to move like a normal routine affair let alone playing cricket and that too with those countries who dictate cricketing world and political world when u support such elements. There will be consequences and it has started to show.
 
Was ISI aware of OBL’s presence in Abbottabad, right next to a military base?

If yes, why were they hiding him? Why would countries trust the intelligence and the security apparatus of a country that was providing protecting to the most famous terrorist and most wanted man in the world?

If ISI was not aware and only found out when American forces raided his home in the middle of the night, what does this say about the competence of the “best intelligence service ever”?

How come the best intelligence service ever couldn’t find out that the most wanted man in the world, the most infamous terrorist, was living right next to a military base in Abbottabad.

The OBL episode completely destroyed whatever credibility Pakistan was left with it. No matter which narrative you pick - Pakistan did or did not know about his presence - does not make Pakistan look good in the slightest.

People , PCB or PAK GOVT or anyone who is asking to share about the threat dont want to introspect about it. There is a thing called credibility which Pak has lost way back. So its obvious that nothing was and will be shared.
 
Wow what a post.

Truth bomb after truth bomb after truth bomb.

This has got to be Junaids best post ever.

Extremely well articulated.

What has happened is harsh on PCB and Pak fans but if you look at the BIG picture, can you really blame NZC.

They are paying the price for Pak's foreign policies but introspecting about that is so much more harder than an indignant emotional outburst...hence you see people behave the way they do.

I heard Wasim Khan was in tears after this.

Poor guy. Feel for him.
 
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Agree with OP on everything but one.

First the agreement


The best assurance of security is when there is not a uniform in sight and you feel safe. That unfortunately is not Pakistan.

Having 23 armored cars around you is not normal.

It didn't happen in Pakistan either prior to its involvement in the war on terror.

Yet, NZ came in good faith.

Security is a fluid thing. You can get a threat any moment, including in the middle of a game. They got the threat, they made a decision. One should respect it. They did absolutely the right thing.

Now the disagreement


Pakistan has always been on the backfoot with every cricket playing country in the last 2 decades - from England to Australia all the way down to Bangladesh and Afghanistan.

Pakistan's indignant noises, no matter how illogical, are important. The country has some weight which unfortunately it doesn't know how to throw around. That is why, I am generally happy to see Pakistan making moves in the region in its interest.

There may be temporary blowback, in the country and on the cricket field, but in the long run, appeasement only means being sidelined or treated with disdain. Just because you are currently unloved and have internal problems, it doesn't mean you give others the satisfaction of trampling all over you.

The reaction, no matter how childish, is important. I support it.

Specifically on NZ
I thought they were arrogant and disrespectful last time Pakistan toured. I think it's time Pakistan dealt with them on equality basis. it's not like they are playing against Australia/India/England every week despite being world champions. They are not box office.
 
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Yes, as opposed to the 5 eyes intelligence who god knows by now has droned hundreds or thousands of innocent civilians and weddings. The one that was publicly exposed just this week is an example. All of such strikes were done on "credible intelligence" presumably.

5 eyes intelligence is a strong intelligence community. I am sure they provide info and not an action list.
I have no clue how or why any drone attack mishap occured. Only saying that it doesnt mean all Western intellience apparatus will fail everytime.

At the same time, I like almost every in Pakistan would like to understand why this credible threat cannot be shared by New Zealand or 5 eyes? Seems very odd
 
5 eyes intelligence is a strong intelligence community. I am sure they provide info and not an action list.
I have no clue how or why any drone attack mishap occured. Only saying that it doesnt mean all Western intellience apparatus will fail everytime.

At the same time, I like almost every in Pakistan would like to understand why this credible threat cannot be shared by New Zealand or 5 eyes? Seems very odd

The actions that happen by military are based on the info provided by 5 eyes or their individual agencies. The war in Iraq was a direct result of that.
 
There are lots "ifs" in your equation and even if just one "if" doesn't go your way, the whole scenario that you are building will collapse. With such vulnerability in the equations itself, more or less, it is evident that there is no sustainability even if somehow it does happen.

As things stand now, that "if" is yet to counter what I have said.

Doubt is a very confusing human aspect; we often doubt what we don't understand, or what we don't like, or what we have no interest in.

I had my doubts that the previous Afghanistan government could keep the country stable, and my doubt in fact became a reality.

I have similar doubts over the logistical, intellectual, and governing capacity of the Taliban to keep their country stable, but as of now, my doubt has not become a reality.

I will keep waiting, things can change which we might not know.

There was only one "if" in that statement, a big "if", but let's see how it pans out.

There was also an "if" in your statement as things stand. :)
 
The actions that happen by military are based on the info provided by 5 eyes or their individual agencies. The war in Iraq was a direct result of that.

maybe
I am just saying right or wrong, any risk assessment cannot be taken lightly, any threat especially when the visiting players maybe the target of that threat.
Just because previous intelligence failed doesn't mean every one of them will fail. Same with success too
 
Good post by Junaids

Just to add to it - Presidential security is for Presidents and Prime Ministers. Not for cricket teams. When you have to provide Presidential security to a sports team - u have a major problem

No cricketer will feel comfortable seeing 20 heavily armed guards protecting him 24 / 7. especially if you are from England / NZ where you don't see much police presence in public. Nobody will want to come to such a country. You will feel claustrophobic & paranoid. There will always be that fear of ' what if something happens " . Its a harsh reality

I understand the need for Presidential security within Pakistan for touring sides but it only heightens the negative perceptions of touring Pakistan

I remember reading Mark Taylor autobiography. He mentions how 1996 World Cup in India / Pakistan was such a jarring experience bcoz he was assigned 2 armed bodyguard wherever he went. It was something he never experienced as a player anywhere before

So imagine what a NZ or Eng player will feel seeing army convoys & military helicopters escorting them to stadiums
 
Its a political move. Pakistan is being punished for not towing the Western line and this is just the start. Recently, US added Pakistan in a list of countries that recruits child soldiers! :)) We should expect more inclusions in such 'lists' which are designed to control nations.

This NZ incident will only force PCB to cancel tours to countries that are not willing to play in Pakistan. That is the only option they are left with now. Trust me, if we do not take a stand now and keep on compromising, a time will come when these teams will not be willing to play with us even on neutral venues. Generic statements such as 'Terror support' and 'Human rights abuses' will be used as excuses.

Cricket is just a game. Pakistan cannot make an enemy of pro-Pakistan Talibans just to host NZ B and Aus C sides. I know going against the West is a difficult proposition nowadays and we should avoid needless tussles with them but we cannot compromise on our national interests just to maintain Western World order.
 
Good post by Junaids

Just to add to it - Presidential security is for Presidents and Prime Ministers. Not for cricket teams. When you have to provide Presidential security to a sports team - u have a major problem

No cricketer will feel comfortable seeing 20 heavily armed guards protecting him 24 / 7. especially if you are from England / NZ where you don't see much police presence in public. Nobody will want to come to such a country. You will feel claustrophobic & paranoid. There will always be that fear of ' what if something happens " . Its a harsh reality

I understand the need for Presidential security within Pakistan for touring sides but it only heightens the negative perceptions of touring Pakistan

I remember reading Mark Taylor autobiography. He mentions how 1996 World Cup in India / Pakistan was such a jarring experience bcoz he was assigned 2 armed bodyguard wherever he went. It was something he never experienced as a player anywhere before

So imagine what a NZ or Eng player will feel seeing army convoys & military helicopters escorting them to stadiums

Wrong assessment. SL, BD, SA, PSL players played with the same security. Some even wrote about how this much security made them feel safe. In fact, a NZ player said the same thing before the tour was cancelled.
 
Good post by Junaids

Just to add to it - Presidential security is for Presidents and Prime Ministers. Not for cricket teams. When you have to provide Presidential security to a sports team - u have a major problem

No cricketer will feel comfortable seeing 20 heavily armed guards protecting him 24 / 7. especially if you are from England / NZ where you don't see much police presence in public. Nobody will want to come to such a country. You will feel claustrophobic & paranoid. There will always be that fear of ' what if something happens " . Its a harsh reality

I understand the need for Presidential security within Pakistan for touring sides but it only heightens the negative perceptions of touring Pakistan

I remember reading Mark Taylor autobiography. He mentions how 1996 World Cup in India / Pakistan was such a jarring experience bcoz he was assigned 2 armed bodyguard wherever he went. It was something he never experienced as a player anywhere before

So imagine what a NZ or Eng player will feel seeing army convoys & military helicopters escorting them to stadiums

NZ did not pulled out because players had reservations regarding security etc. Infact, they had been training in the same ground for days.
 
Agree with OP on everything but one.

First the agreement


The best assurance of security is when there is not a uniform in sight and you feel safe. That unfortunately is not Pakistan.

Having 23 armored cars around you is not normal.

It didn't happen in Pakistan either prior to its involvement in the war on terror.

Yet, NZ came in good faith.

Security is a fluid thing. You can get a threat any moment, including in the middle of a game. They got the threat, they made a decision. One should respect it. They did absolutely the right thing.

Now the disagreement


Pakistan has always been on the backfoot with every cricket playing country in the last 2 decades - from England to Australia all the way down to Bangladesh and Afghanistan.

Pakistan's indignant noises, no matter how illogical, are important. The country has some weight which unfortunately it doesn't know how to throw around. That is why, I am generally happy to see Pakistan making moves in the region in its interest.

There may be temporary blowback, in the country and on the cricket field, but in the long run, appeasement only means being sidelined or treated with disdain. Just because you are currently unloved and have internal problems, it doesn't mean you give others the satisfaction of trampling all over you.

The reaction, no matter how childish, is important. I support it.

Specifically on NZ
I thought they were arrogant and disrespectful last time Pakistan toured. I think it's time Pakistan dealt with them on equality basis. it's not like they are playing against Australia/India/England every week despite being world champions. They are not box office.

I think this post outlines the situation quite clearly.

From a political point of view, Pakistan is making moves to introduce stability to the region. The way they do so, I do not condone, but the history stands in front of us. In truth, there is no right or wrong in war or politics; it's about serving your own interests. US invasion of Iraq was done for their own purpose to destabilize the region, but what killed a million people, how does society not speak about this?

Society has become aloof, we tend to see actions from a particular set of people as being necessary, whereas if another nation does the same, they are treated with animosity and barbarism.

It's a sign that tides are shifting around the world, isolation from sports is a particular example that the western world and the rest of the world aren't seeing eye to eye anymore. There is no formality, no professionalism, it is the beginning of something very disturbing.

You've got US, UK, AUS booting France out of a deal. You've got countries buying fighter jets from Pakistan (first Nigeria, now Argentina). You've got separate intelligence services among countries telling members not to indulge in activities with others. You've got the western world trying to put a brick on China.

The balance of power has shifted in the world. Geo-poltiics have reached an all-time high in my opinion. Cricket is perhaps the least of our worries for now.
 
I think this post outlines the situation quite clearly.

From a political point of view, Pakistan is making moves to introduce stability to the region. The way they do so, I do not condone, but the history stands in front of us. In truth, there is no right or wrong in war or politics; it's about serving your own interests. US invasion of Iraq was done for their own purpose to destabilize the region, but what killed a million people, how does society not speak about this?

Society has become aloof, we tend to see actions from a particular set of people as being necessary, whereas if another nation does the same, they are treated with animosity and barbarism.

It's a sign that tides are shifting around the world, isolation from sports is a particular example that the western world and the rest of the world aren't seeing eye to eye anymore. There is no formality, no professionalism, it is the beginning of something very disturbing.

You've got US, UK, AUS booting France out of a deal. You've got countries buying fighter jets from Pakistan (first Nigeria, now Argentina). You've got separate intelligence services among countries telling members not to indulge in activities with others. You've got the western world trying to put a brick on China.

The balance of power has shifted in the world. Geo-poltiics have reached an all-time high in my opinion. Cricket is perhaps the least of our worries for now.

I would generally agree. However I would rather that NZ mention specifically they abandoned the tour because of this. They probably won't even if it was true though, because it would embarass them and their credibility would take a hit.

Pakistan government could come out and say the same thing if NZ isn't going to do that itself.

But I agree, geopolitical and strategic interests will trump cricketing interests times a 1000. It's not even remotely close.
 
Wow what a post.

Truth bomb after truth bomb after truth bomb.

This has got to be Junaids best post ever.

Extremely well articulated.

What has happened is harsh on PCB and Pak fans but if you look at the BIG picture, can you really blame NZC.

They are paying the price for Pak's foreign policies but introspecting about that is so much more harder than an indignant emotional outburst...hence you see people behave the way they do.

I heard Wasim Khan was in tears after this.

Poor guy. Feel for him.

Truth bomber :))

Indians agreeing with Junaids is rare, but understandable in this case.
 
Intelligence sharing between Pakistan and the U.S on the counter terrorism continues to take place. That co-operation is even closer between the U.K and Pakistan.

The reason the U.S has not gone all IRAQ on Pakistan till now is exactly because it expects relations with Pakistan in the counter-terror domain to continue especially with ISIS-K looking to set up base in Afghanistan.

If there was a geniune threat, there are ways to share it with intelligence services here w/o disclosing sources or methods of intelligence gathering.

The OP is wrong in his premise. Terror threats are shared even between open enemies let alone lets say geo-political frenemies. If a terror threat is not shared especially since the Kiwi team has left, and now Pakistani innocent lives are in danger then it says more about the ones who have knowledge of this threat than about Pakistan.

Regarding future international tours to Pakistan, we can continue to have cricketing ties with SriLanka, Bangladesh, Westindies, South Africa and most importantly England. Throw in the profitable PSL and we can continue to survive.

Yes, England because I think it will play the role of the good cop here :)

As for some of the Indian comments here about Pakistan needing to introspect....sit down and shut up. You belong to a fascist state where a full-scale pogom was committed not too long ago against your Muslim minority in your CAPITAL. Take a good look at your Prime Minister elected by your people before you come down here telling us to introspect.
 
Intelligence sharing between Pakistan and the U.S on the counter terrorism continues to take place. That co-operation is even closer between the U.K and Pakistan.

The reason the U.S has not gone all IRAQ on Pakistan till now is exactly because it expects relations with Pakistan in the counter-terror domain to continue especially with ISIS-K looking to set up base in Afghanistan.

If there was a geniune threat, there are ways to share it with intelligence services here w/o disclosing sources or methods of intelligence gathering.

The OP is wrong in his premise. Terror threats are shared even between open enemies let alone lets say geo-political frenemies. If a terror threat is not shared especially since the Kiwi team has left, and now Pakistani innocent lives are in danger then it says more about the ones who have knowledge of this threat than about Pakistan.

Regarding future international tours to Pakistan, we can continue to have cricketing ties with SriLanka, Bangladesh, Westindies, South Africa and most importantly England. Throw in the profitable PSL and we can continue to survive.

Yes, England because I think it will play the role of the good cop here :)

As for some of the Indian comments here about Pakistan needing to introspect....sit down and shut up. You belong to a fascist state where a full-scale pogom was committed not too long ago against your Muslim minority in your CAPITAL. Take a good look at your Prime Minister elected by your people before you come down here telling us to introspect.
Nice post. Yes, there's no reason to not share intelligence like this with Pakistan. The whole 'intelligence cannot be shared' is a futile excuse since there's no apparent reason why that can't happen in this case. Some people mention 5 eyes doesn't share it unless they all agree to it. There's no reason why they can't all agree to it. It's a sports tour and the interests of Pakistan are aligned with 5 eyes in this case.

As for this introspection drivel, these guys say that crap literally every time something happens. Pakistan is the victim, Pakistan must introspect. Pakistan is the supposed perpetrator, Pakistan must introspect. No idea what these people think who they are to be showing Pakistan the moral high ground.
 
Another thing I should mention. 5 eyes were sharing intelligence with Taliban and vice versa around the time the Afghan withdrawal time. So this argument around intelligence cannot be shared is a lamest excuse ever.
 
I showed in another thread that if bilateral ties and tours with India existed, the PCB would overtake Cricket Australia as the third richest Board. But that is not happening anytime soon.

If Pakistan had a decent economy and was contributing hundreds of millions of dollars in broadcast rights fees and sponsorship money like India, they wouldn't need to depend on bilateral tours with India.
 
Intelligence sharing between Pakistan and the U.S on the counter terrorism continues to take place. That co-operation is even closer between the U.K and Pakistan.

The reason the U.S has not gone all IRAQ on Pakistan till now is exactly because it expects relations with Pakistan in the counter-terror domain to continue especially with ISIS-K looking to set up base in Afghanistan.

If there was a geniune threat, there are ways to share it with intelligence services here w/o disclosing sources or methods of intelligence gathering.

The OP is wrong in his premise. Terror threats are shared even between open enemies let alone lets say geo-political frenemies. If a terror threat is not shared especially since the Kiwi team has left, and now Pakistani innocent lives are in danger then it says more about the ones who have knowledge of this threat than about Pakistan.

Regarding future international tours to Pakistan, we can continue to have cricketing ties with SriLanka, Bangladesh, Westindies, South Africa and most importantly England. Throw in the profitable PSL and we can continue to survive.

Yes, England because I think it will play the role of the good cop here :)

As for some of the Indian comments here about Pakistan needing to introspect....sit down and shut up. You belong to a fascist state where a full-scale pogom was committed not too long ago against your Muslim minority in your CAPITAL. Take a good look at your Prime Minister elected by your people before you come down here telling us to introspect.

I made a thread about England's role, and I also think they need to be open-minded. UK and Pakistan have started to reignite their relations, and this would not be a good time to jeopardize that.

ECB and PCB have a great relationship: I think it's the best relationship Pakistan has with another board.

We have helped them through thick and thin (height of COVID in 2020, again their entire team got COVID in 2021).

We have supported them and their cricket. We have helped them recover revenue from the losses they made.

I think England will send a squad, but only after a detailed security review. I believe they'll do the following hings:

1.) They'll send their security delegation to make a very thorough, comprehensive check of the ground reality. This will act as a calming mechanism for the Pakistani media and public.
2.) From then on, only their character and heart will determine what happens, they might say that they'll need more security or they'll abandon the tour. However, ECB will know the type of relationship they have with Pakistan, so I would not be surprised if they ask the PCB to send the Pakistan team over to England and arrange some sort of a series there where PCB can be entitled to getting a portion of the revenue.
 
Respectfully, New Zealand should keep the condescending comments to itself, because we couldn't care less.
 
Anyone comparing 2009 Pakistan to 2021 Pakistan has no clue what they are talking about.

The attack on the srilankan team occured under the watch of the Punjab police, ever dealt with them? They were severely under manned, not at all trained and the plans put on paper were no where close to put in practice.

2021 teams touring pakistan are safeguarded by the Pakistan army. They cordan off entire roads, they have helicopters in the air, and bulletproof decoy buses. The entire trip from the hotel to the ground they dont come into contact or see any traffic, surrounded by the best security the country has to offer.


I wont even bother to cover the rest of the rubbish posted. If you want to comment on the ground situation in pakistan you have to have firstly followed every development over the last 20 years minimum from every single source within pakistan and outside, then actually have been in the country during these times to even begin to comprehend the ground reality.

Please don't lecture pakistanis when you have no clue OP. Coming from someone who values your posts and insights on the cricketing topics alot.
 
I understand your points, but my response is blunt too.

No team from an affluent country will ever tour under such conditions.

You may feel proud taking that stance (and you clearly are if you think the ISI is the world’s best intelligence agency).

But any team considering a tour would just go “no thanks”.

Isn't that better than actually coming, playing cat and mouse and then saying "No thanks".

At least this way, we don't waste our resources on the "nations which clearly can't trust us".
 
The ECB decision due is a huge one for Pakistan cricket.

If they decline the tour then that verifies NZC's decision and puts PCB and Pakistan cricket in huge strife with Australia also on the horizon and looking for any excuse not to tour Pakistan.

If ECB agree to the 2-match tour that will put further doubt into NZC's decision and give hope to Pakistan cricket and it's future series at home.
 
I would like to emphasise at the outset that this thread is intended in a supportive way for Pakistan cricket. There will be none of my usual teasing/trolling, simply an attempt to explain to a Pakistani audience how the world has changed this last month, and how it affects them.

Rightly or wrongly, Pakistan is not in the Big Three. I showed in another thread that if bilateral ties and tours with India existed, the PCB would overtake Cricket Australia as the third richest Board. But that is not happening anytime soon.

In recent years there has been a reduction in domestic terrorism in Pakistan. You may or may not link that to non-Taliban rule in Afghanistan, but the bottom line is that touring Pakistan became safer, and aside from the Asian countries Zimbabwe, South Africa and - until Friday - New Zealand resumed touring the country.

Now we are at the point at which I need to make a few points you will not like.

1. Nobody gives the slightest consideration or respect to Pakistani claims of "Foolproof security".
The attack on the Sri Lankan team in Lahore ended that for a generation.

2. Nobody gives the slightest consideration to Pakistan's intelligence gathering agencies. No western country will trust them, and no western country would ever share sensitive intelligence with them.
Three things ensured that.
i) The 2009 Lahore attack on the Sri Lanka team, plus the 2002 Karachi attack in Inzamam's 329 Test.
ii) The fact that Osama Bin Laden was sheltered in Abbottabad of all places, and that the Americans were only able to successfully execute their attack by excluding the ISI, which is universally assumed to have sheltered and protected him.
iii) The fact that the Taliban - after winning zero seats out of 250 in the 2018 Afghan election - has returned to power with the clear patronage of the Pakistan political and intelligence elite.
The last of those points is the clearest one now. Two decades without Taliban rule had seen the Pakistan armed forces, intelligence services and political elite regain a small amount of credibility in western countries. But the return of the unwanted Taliban to power in Afghanistan has made their friends and allies into Pariahs once more.

3. Any western sports team will leave instantly if they are warned by their own security services of an imminent danger.

It's unrealistic to the point of fantasy to think that New Zealand, for example, would have responded to a warning of a threat by defying its own government and intelligence services. That's just inconceivable.

The same thing would have happened even before the Taliban returned to power. But now that they are back - and every Western government rightly or wrongly sees the ISI's fingerprints all over it - the chances that New Zealand Cricket would defy their own government and stay in response to Pakistani assurances, or share sensitive intelligence with Pakistan are simply ZERO.

4. Blaming your guests for obeying their own government's directions to go home after a reported immediate threat is politically dumb and counter-productive.

The fact that New Zealand was there, on matchday, shows that the Board, the players and the management staff were in Pakistan in good faith and intended to play. Even though they all know people like Mark Richardson and Craig McMillan and Stephen Fleming who have heard a bomb go off in Pakistan.

Anyone who seriously thinks that the 2021 team could have just ignored their government's orders is a fool. I expected more of Rameez Raja, and I am shocked by the stupidity - and self-damaging nature - of his comments.

5. The Pakistan Prime Minister's comments resonate around the cricket world.

Imran Khan is not a politician like any other. Every man - but also every woman - over the age of 40 in the cricket world knows exactly who he is. Most of us in the west giggle at his ludicrous misogynistic comments about women attracting rape by their clothing because we remember his romantic activities with English, American and Australian women. But every time he makes a comment like that he inadvertently positions western perceptions of Pakistan as more and more intertwined with our perceptions of Afghanistan. His comments and actions towards the Taliban are even more destructive to Pakistan cricket.

In summary, an unintended consequence for Pakistan of the return of the Taliban to power in Afghanistan is that Pakistan has returned to Pariah status in the cricket world.

So much good political work had taken place with the England and Wales Cricket Board and Cricket South Africa in particular in recent years. And it has all been fatally undermined by the resumption of Taliban rule, and by the perception that they were enabled in it by Pakistan's intelligence services.

My advice to the PCB is simple.

1. Continue the diplomatic work.
2. Continue to schedule international tours, but understand that there will be a very low threshold for their unilateral cancellation by the opposition.
3. Accept that when tours get cancelled for security reasons, the way to behave is to say "Of course we support the safety of the New Zealand team, and we would never think of asking them to remain here when they feel unsafe. they leave with our blessing, but we hope it was a false alarm, and we hope to host our dear Kiwi friends again soon".
4. Never, ever say "but we offered them presidential level security". Everyone knows what happened to the Sri Lankan cricketers and Benazir Bhutto, and if you tout your own security your guests will just laugh at you.
5. Never, ever say "but our intelligence services say there is no threat". That will simply attract private comments about Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban and provoke your guests further, and burn more bridges.
6. Above all, understand that having a Taliban government next door profoundly damages the status, stature, influence and power of Pakistan cricket. It's hard to imagine any one thing which could damage Pakistan cricket more.

One final comment. Any responses citing the Australian terrorist in Christchurch, or the Covid outbreak at India's Oval Test will only show that the writer has not addressed what I have put in this thread. It's actually not relevant, and it won't help Pakistan's cause.

Where is the proof that the CIA excluded the ISI in their plan to attack Osama Bin Laden?
 
A brilliant and very important post by Junaids.

Pakistanis are well-known for being the most delusional people on earth. This is not just limited to cricket but politics as well.

We have shown that we are incapable of accepting the reality and fail to bridge the gap between how we want the world to see us and how the world actually see us.

The bitter reality is that Pakistan does not have a shred of credibility in the international arena.

No one has any faith in what we say and what we do. We are known as a country that is always lying and working on an agenda that is benefiting terrorist and rogue organizations.

The OBL fiasco, the attack on the Sri Lankan team, the blatant support for Taliban and the protection for several UN designated terrorists and terrorist organizations has taken care of that.

Pakistan’s reputation is no different to that of Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq etc.

Teams like Australia, England and New Zealand will never give us the benefit of doubt and they have no reason to. They will only play in Pakistan if they are 100% convinced that there is no security threat.

The slightest threat is more than enough for these teams to act accordingly and protect themselves.

We thump our chests over how great our intelligence is and it should be trusted. However, on the other hand, we have tried to fool the world into believing that our great intelligence had no clue about the fact that OBL, the most wanted man in the world, was living right next to a military base in Pakistan.

The country is delusional. And unfortunately it’s further slipping further down that rabbit hole. They don’t get it.
 
I would like to emphasise at the outset that this thread is intended in a supportive way for Pakistan cricket. There will be none of my usual teasing/trolling, simply an attempt to explain to a Pakistani audience how the world has changed this last month, and how it affects them.

Rightly or wrongly, Pakistan is not in the Big Three. I showed in another thread that if bilateral ties and tours with India existed, the PCB would overtake Cricket Australia as the third richest Board. But that is not happening anytime soon.

In recent years there has been a reduction in domestic terrorism in Pakistan. You may or may not link that to non-Taliban rule in Afghanistan, but the bottom line is that touring Pakistan became safer, and aside from the Asian countries Zimbabwe, South Africa and - until Friday - New Zealand resumed touring the country.

Now we are at the point at which I need to make a few points you will not like.

1. Nobody gives the slightest consideration or respect to Pakistani claims of "Foolproof security".
The attack on the Sri Lankan team in Lahore ended that for a generation.

2. Nobody gives the slightest consideration to Pakistan's intelligence gathering agencies. No western country will trust them, and no western country would ever share sensitive intelligence with them.
Three things ensured that.
i) The 2009 Lahore attack on the Sri Lanka team, plus the 2002 Karachi attack in Inzamam's 329 Test.
ii) The fact that Osama Bin Laden was sheltered in Abbottabad of all places, and that the Americans were only able to successfully execute their attack by excluding the ISI, which is universally assumed to have sheltered and protected him.
iii) The fact that the Taliban - after winning zero seats out of 250 in the 2018 Afghan election - has returned to power with the clear patronage of the Pakistan political and intelligence elite.
The last of those points is the clearest one now. Two decades without Taliban rule had seen the Pakistan armed forces, intelligence services and political elite regain a small amount of credibility in western countries. But the return of the unwanted Taliban to power in Afghanistan has made their friends and allies into Pariahs once more.

3. Any western sports team will leave instantly if they are warned by their own security services of an imminent danger.

It's unrealistic to the point of fantasy to think that New Zealand, for example, would have responded to a warning of a threat by defying its own government and intelligence services. That's just inconceivable.

The same thing would have happened even before the Taliban returned to power. But now that they are back - and every Western government rightly or wrongly sees the ISI's fingerprints all over it - the chances that New Zealand Cricket would defy their own government and stay in response to Pakistani assurances, or share sensitive intelligence with Pakistan are simply ZERO.

4. Blaming your guests for obeying their own government's directions to go home after a reported immediate threat is politically dumb and counter-productive.

The fact that New Zealand was there, on matchday, shows that the Board, the players and the management staff were in Pakistan in good faith and intended to play. Even though they all know people like Mark Richardson and Craig McMillan and Stephen Fleming who have heard a bomb go off in Pakistan.

Anyone who seriously thinks that the 2021 team could have just ignored their government's orders is a fool. I expected more of Rameez Raja, and I am shocked by the stupidity - and self-damaging nature - of his comments.

5. The Pakistan Prime Minister's comments resonate around the cricket world.

Imran Khan is not a politician like any other. Every man - but also every woman - over the age of 40 in the cricket world knows exactly who he is. Most of us in the west giggle at his ludicrous misogynistic comments about women attracting rape by their clothing because we remember his romantic activities with English, American and Australian women. But every time he makes a comment like that he inadvertently positions western perceptions of Pakistan as more and more intertwined with our perceptions of Afghanistan. His comments and actions towards the Taliban are even more destructive to Pakistan cricket.

In summary, an unintended consequence for Pakistan of the return of the Taliban to power in Afghanistan is that Pakistan has returned to Pariah status in the cricket world.

So much good political work had taken place with the England and Wales Cricket Board and Cricket South Africa in particular in recent years. And it has all been fatally undermined by the resumption of Taliban rule, and by the perception that they were enabled in it by Pakistan's intelligence services.

My advice to the PCB is simple.

1. Continue the diplomatic work.
2. Continue to schedule international tours, but understand that there will be a very low threshold for their unilateral cancellation by the opposition.
3. Accept that when tours get cancelled for security reasons, the way to behave is to say "Of course we support the safety of the New Zealand team, and we would never think of asking them to remain here when they feel unsafe. they leave with our blessing, but we hope it was a false alarm, and we hope to host our dear Kiwi friends again soon".
4. Never, ever say "but we offered them presidential level security". Everyone knows what happened to the Sri Lankan cricketers and Benazir Bhutto, and if you tout your own security your guests will just laugh at you.
5. Never, ever say "but our intelligence services say there is no threat". That will simply attract private comments about Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban and provoke your guests further, and burn more bridges.
6. Above all, understand that having a Taliban government next door profoundly damages the status, stature, influence and power of Pakistan cricket. It's hard to imagine any one thing which could damage Pakistan cricket more.

One final comment. Any responses citing the Australian terrorist in Christchurch, or the Covid outbreak at India's Oval Test will only show that the writer has not addressed what I have put in this thread. It's actually not relevant, and it won't help Pakistan's cause.

I must say this is most realistic and pragmatic view of situation as I have read. Unless you see things the way they are, you cannot course correct.
 
Mr. Expert on International relations, there are a lot more to it then meet the eye, every Tom duck and Harry knows it. It was just childish way of hurting Pak and teaching it a lesson by Anti Pak entities specially west after they had to ran from Afghanistan with tail between their legs. Anyways for our country's overall interest and safety this is no big payback. But i am just so amazed how they couldn't even manufacture a good enough fake threat which could have been so closed. The first world spy agencies. Ha

Why on earth would NZ want to harm Pakistan? NZ never pick trouble with anybody, they barely have a defence force, they have no enemies, they rely purely on goodwill and good intention to keep existing. It's really, really weird you think NZ is part of some shadowy conspiracy to attack Pakistan.

You could accuse them of over-reacting to a threat or misunderstanding the security situation- that would make sense. But NZ playing politics? They just don't do it.
 
[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION]

You need to provide credible information on point 2i otherwise it will be viewed as a spread of misinformation.

How did the CIA successfully execute its plans by excluding the ISI?
 
The ECB decision due is a huge one for Pakistan cricket.

If they decline the tour then that verifies NZC's decision and puts PCB and Pakistan cricket in huge strife with Australia also on the horizon and looking for any excuse not to tour Pakistan.

If ECB agree to the 2-match tour that will put further doubt into NZC's decision and give hope to Pakistan cricket and it's future series at home.

They may verify NZC's decision, but only to protect NZC's image rather any security issue. It's like the anglophile countries sticking together type thing.
 
They may verify NZC's decision, but only to protect NZC's image rather any security issue. It's like the anglophile countries sticking together type thing.

Nothing is left of the empire besides the memory of an alliance. This alliance will not be broken for sure

If only we had this alliance with our Indian and Afghan neighbours.
 
They may verify NZC's decision, but only to protect NZC's image rather any security issue. It's like the anglophile countries sticking together type thing.

You do realise that the previous day the NZ government told the governments of Australia, the UK and USA that their nuclear submarines would not be allowed into New Zealand waters?
 
Nothing is left of the empire besides the memory of an alliance. This alliance will not be broken for sure

If only we had this alliance with our Indian and Afghan neighbours.

Yup, also mind HM the Queen, Elizabeth ll is head of state of NZ.
 
Where is the proof that the CIA excluded the ISI in their plan to attack Osama Bin Laden?

They did it successfully that itself is a proof coz Pak Govt. had declared him already dead many times before he actually got assassinated.
 
You do realise that the previous day the NZ government told the governments of Australia, the UK and USA that their nuclear submarines would not be allowed into New Zealand waters?

The Scottish govt. wants to/will get rid of Trident if they got independence so the argument of nuclear submarines is a bit flawed.
 
There are many threats to many people around the world.

Each threat needs to be looked at its merit - we cannot live our lives based upon ALL possible threats.
 
What can we do? Unfortunately, Pakistan isn't a major player on the world stage, and at end of the day, that is what counts. It feels better to imagine a worldwide conspiracy against us, so I'm not surprised at how most grab onto such an idea.

Might will always be right, and till we make this country go from a fledgling economy with little or no impact on the world stage apart from being toys in geopolitics for the major powers, to a self-sufficient and robust nation, we'll continuously be disregarded like this. We offer nothing and treating us like garbage holds no consequences.

However, for that to happen we need to openly admit and critique our current status quo, which I don't see happening anytime soon since we're much more comfortable believing in dramatic delusions of 'Us vs Them". It doesn't help that our politicians and powers to be also fed into such delusions to mask their own incompetency.
 
They did it successfully that itself is a proof coz Pak Govt. had declared him already dead many times before he actually got assassinated.

Let’s not decide on speculations here

If there is clear evidence to his claim, he should provide it. He describes it as a ‘fact’. The evidence should be available to support the fact.
 
There are many threats to many people around the world.

Each threat needs to be looked at its merit - we cannot live our lives based upon ALL possible threats.

Exactly, the current threat level for the UK is Substantial - an attack is likely. Before that, it had been Severe - an attack is highly likely (2nd highest).

Does this mean that other cricket teams should stop touring the UK as presidential security would not be provided?
 
[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION]

You need to provide credible information on point 2i otherwise it will be viewed as a spread of misinformation.

How did the CIA successfully execute its plans by excluding the ISI?

I apologise if I have misrepresented that, but I think my (perhaps incorrect) understanding is pretty widely shared.
 
I apologise if I have misrepresented that, but I think my (perhaps incorrect) understanding is pretty widely shared.

fair enough

All I am asking for is credible proof that it is a fact. I am not arguing with you here. I just ask for you to back this claim with proof that should put an end to speculation.
 
Let's be brutally honest, the people supporting the NZ decision are the ones that hate PK generally and want its nose rubbed in dirt( and you can see who they are on here) and bar the odd poster that's most of the guys on here who support the decision. PK will survive whether these haters like it or not.
The saddest thing is the PK beghairat who take enjoyment in these events but all countries have these people. As I said yesterday we need to think about where the hotels are and look to build the hotels close to the grounds.
 
Let’s not decide on speculations here

If there is clear evidence to his claim, he should provide it. He describes it as a ‘fact’. The evidence should be available to support the fact.

Officials at US Army and Govt. have given such statements and many have written it in their books. Now its upto others who they believe, who according to them is more credible.
 
Officials at US Army and Govt. have given such statements and many have written it in their books. Now its upto others who they believe, who according to them is more credible.

Provide a definitive source please.
 
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