Rest of the World XI versus West Indies XI in 1980s in Tests?

[Harsh Thakor]

World test xi of 1980's. to play West Indies 1980's xi

Selected on basis of performance against West Indies and not overall.

Sunil Gavaskar
Graham Gooch
Alan Border
Dilip Vengsarkar
Mohinder Amarnath
Alan Lamb
Kapil Dev
Imran Khan
Richard Hadlee
Syed Kirmani
Abdul Qadir


This xi may beat the all-conquering West Indies xi of 1980's .More variety in bowling with Qadir as a spinner and greater batting depth with 3 of the best allrounders ever.The West Indies team would still have a better middle order and more lethal pace bowling.What a contest!I back the world xi to win by the slenderest of margins.On paper if I had selected Gower ,Miandada and Botham World xi would be the favourites by a whisker.However all were inconsistent against West Indles and I chose Alan Lamb ,Mohinder Amarnath and Dilip Vengsarakar instead, who mastered the great Quartet.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

[MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] @ MMHS @ Bilal [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] do participate here Also @ Ab fan

 

[Harsh Thakor]

do participate [MENTION=139595]Ab Fan[/MENTION] [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] [MENTION=538]bilal[/MENTION]

 

[Gilly]

Would have taken Gower before Armanath, but would have taken Crowe before both of them. Phillips would also get a shout.

 

[Reverse Sweep]

Crowe averaged a lot vs the Windies. Scored 188 in the Caribbean and dominated their quicks in 86/87 in NZ. Since Gooch was banned for touring South Africa perhaps pick John Wright instead.

 

[MMHS]

More or less Rest of world XI is acceptable, may be I'll pick Martin Crowe for Amarnath (After that 1982-83 series in WIN, Jimmy had a home series of 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1). Kapil, Imran, Hadlee gives a good batting depth, therefore may be we can think of dropping one batsman (not sure between Lamb or Amarnath), we could have considered Wasim Akram as well.

More or less, WIN XI for 1980s will be Grineedge, Haynes, Viv, Richardson, Gomez, Lloyd, Doujon, Marshall, Ambi, Holding & Garner.

It'll be a tight contest for sure. In Asia, definitely Rest of The World will have an edge, considering WIN failed to win Test Series in PAK twice & IND once in 1980s and lost both Test to AUS at SCG (1980s SCG was a spinners paradise). In Asia, their pace attack will be negotiated by the batting for sure, but RoTW had the bowling edge with Qadir & Imran (for his reverse swing). In a 6 Test series, at Mumbai, Kolkata, Delhi, Karachi, Lahore & Colombo - my hunch is RoTW winning 5-1, 4-1 or at worst 4-2, but series won't be drawn and won't be 6-0 either, but I don't know where, who'll win - probably WIN will give better fight in 2 northern venues - Lahore & Delhi.

In UK, I am not sure. Their bowling will be definitely potent, but in UK Hadlee & Imran were champions with ball and batting definitely won't be worse than WIN because of the depth - this RoTW XI has Qadir at 11 & Kirmani at 10!!! In a 6 Test series at their 6 traditional venues, I would back WIN to win 3-2 or draw 3-3..... RoTW won't win the series there because I back WIN to win at least 3 Tests a Leeds, Manchester & Birmingham on typical wickets; Oval might be drawn, while Nottingham & Lord's should favor RoTW, for Hadlee & Imran.

In WIN itself, I think at Barbados & Kingston WIN favorite, RoTW at PoS & Guyana, Antigua probably even. Best case is 2-2 drawn series, with one draw at Antigua or Guyana; worst is probably 3-1 WIN, with RoTW winning at PoS.

One venue where WIN'll smoke away the RoTW is AUS - my pick will be 3-1 WIN. Winning by innings at WACA, by clear margin at Gabba, a tight win at MCG and an entertaining draw at Adelaide. Qadir, Imran, Border and RJH should win the SCG Test.

Being a great team is one thing, but after 1970s, it's really impossible to compete with rest of the world for any team in any sports. When Bradman used to play, there were only 2 teams, so AUS V RoTW or AUS V ENG was almost same, but not after 1970s, when game was globalized. Not only in cricket, take any other major global sports (not Yank's own game like NFL, Baseball or Basketball), don't think any team would dominate rest of the world - even in Ryder Cup, once Europe replaced British Isles, it has been even. Only 2 International teams in my memory could have taken world XI and could have dominated - Pakistan's 1980-82 Hockey team and that USSR Ice Hockey team of 1980s (which had 5 of the 6 players of 20th century best VI, at one time, only Gretzky made the team of 6, and those 5 were within 5 years apart by age). May be Brazil's 1970 WC winners and the All Blacks of late 1980s could have competed even.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

More or less Rest of world XI is acceptable, may be I'll pick Martin Crowe for Amarnath (After that 1982-83 series in WIN, Jimmy had a home series of 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1). Kapil, Imran, Hadlee gives a good batting depth, therefore may be we can think of dropping one batsman (not sure between Lamb or Amarnath), we could have considered Wasim Akram as well.

More or less, WIN XI for 1980s will be Grineedge, Haynes, Viv, Richardson, Gomez, Lloyd, Doujon, Marshall, Ambi, Holding & Garner.

It'll be a tight contest for sure. In Asia, definitely Rest of The World will have an edge, considering WIN failed to win Test Series in PAK twice & IND once in 1980s and lost both Test to AUS at SCG (1980s SCG was a spinners paradise). In Asia, their pace attack will be negotiated by the batting for sure, but RoTW had the bowling edge with Qadir & Imran (for his reverse swing). In a 6 Test series, at Mumbai, Kolkata, Delhi, Karachi, Lahore & Colombo - my hunch is RoTW winning 5-1, 4-1 or at worst 4-2, but series won't be drawn and won't be 6-0 either, but I don't know where, who'll win - probably WIN will give better fight in 2 northern venues - Lahore & Delhi.

In UK, I am not sure. Their bowling will be definitely potent, but in UK Hadlee & Imran were champions with ball and batting definitely won't be worse than WIN because of the depth - this RoTW XI has Qadir at 11 & Kirmani at 10!!! In a 6 Test series at their 6 traditional venues, I would back WIN to win 3-2 or draw 3-3..... RoTW won't win the series there because I back WIN to win at least 3 Tests a Leeds, Manchester & Birmingham on typical wickets; Oval might be drawn, while Nottingham & Lord's should favor RoTW, for Hadlee & Imran.

In WIN itself, I think at Barbados & Kingston WIN favorite, RoTW at PoS & Guyana, Antigua probably even. Best case is 2-2 drawn series, with one draw at Antigua or Guyana; worst is probably 3-1 WIN, with RoTW winning at PoS.

One venue where WIN'll smoke away the RoTW is AUS - my pick will be 3-1 WIN. Winning by innings at WACA, by clear margin at Gabba, a tight win at MCG and an entertaining draw at Adelaide. Qadir, Imran, Border and RJH should win the SCG Test.

Being a great team is one thing, but after 1970s, it's really impossible to compete with rest of the world for any team in any sports. When Bradman used to play, there were only 2 teams, so AUS V RoTW or AUS V ENG was almost same, but not after 1970s, when game was globalized. Not only in cricket, take any other major global sports (not Yank's own game like NFL, Baseball or Basketball), don't think any team would dominate rest of the world - even in Ryder Cup, once Europe replaced British Isles, it has been even. Only 2 International teams in my memory could have taken world XI and could have dominated - Pakistan's 1980-82 Hockey team and that USSR Ice Hockey team of 1980s (which had 5 of the 6 players of 20th century best VI, at one time, only Gretzky made the team of 6, and those 5 were within 5 years apart by age). May be Brazil's 1970 WC winners and the All Blacks of late 1980s could have competed even.

Great answer.Sound analysis.Maybe Wasim was a better choice than of Hadlee in subcontinent or on flat tracks.Feel Gower could make the team?

 

[MMHS]

Great answer.Sound analysis.Maybe Wasim was a better choice than of Hadlee in subcontinent or on flat tracks.Feel Gower could make the team?

May not be. His 154* was one of the best innings, but I doubt his overall Test average against WIN is above 30!!! I saw glimpses of his batting in 1988 series in achieves - apart from 88* in a drawn Test, he was struggling big time to be dropped for 5th Test. With a home average of 23, you can't pick him. In fact, Javed's record in 1980s against win is better than Gower (overall poor because of 1977 & 1990, 94 Series). Martin Crowe, Boycott, Salim Malik, Kepler Wessels & Dean Jones had better claim than Gower and probably Amarnath as well, but Jimmy had that two legendary years of career.

 

[Swashbuckler]

Being a great team is one thing, but after 1970s, it's really impossible to compete with rest of the world for any team in any sports. When Bradman used to play, there were only 2 teams, so AUS V RoTW or AUS V ENG was almost same, but not after 1970s, when game was globalized. Not only in cricket, take any other major global sports (not Yank's own game like NFL, Baseball or Basketball), don't think any team would dominate rest of the world - even in Ryder Cup, once Europe replaced British Isles, it has been even. Only 2 International teams in my memory could have taken world XI and could have dominated - Pakistan's 1980-82 Hockey team and that USSR Ice Hockey team of 1980s (which had 5 of the 6 players of 20th century best VI, at one time, only Gretzky made the team of 6, and those 5 were within 5 years apart by age). May be Brazil's 1970 WC winners and the All Blacks of late 1980s could have competed even.

The 1st part of your post was solid and I agree with your assessment. Would like to add on about your last para.

Strictly talking about post 70s, I think Australian hockey team of beginning of this decade was more dominating than Pakistan of early 80s. But when you talk about global sports you can't name field hockey and ignore basketball. Basketball has more appeal on a global scale and field hockey in most Western nations (except Netherlands) is a minor sport, not even top 15 in most of their countries. In fact field hockey, badminton, table tennis, rugby, cricket, squash, baseball etc can never be called global sports IMO. Not sure about ice hockey either, whether it is a global sport or not.

Talking of global sports tennis has to be in the discussion. I am sure there were certain periods in 70s, 80s and early 90s when USA would beat rest of the world in both men's (Davis Cup) and women's (Fed Cup) team events, on almost every court. In 90s with Agassi, Chang and Courier I think even on clay they would beat ROTW. Look at the names they produced and compare it to peers, in men's there would be some resistance but between the Court/King/Goolagong era and arrival of Seles/Graff it was rampage by the American ladies.

In chess again it would have been a stomp by USSR over ROTW, Russia post USSR breakdown still would have won but not dominated. Between Fischer and Anand, there was uninterrupted reign for 3 decades when they held the title, they also won every team event possible. In the 90s when the rest of the world started catching up and USSR had given way to powerful chess nations like Ukraine, Georgia, Armenia etc, the Russian team fielded the following players for Olympiads: Kasparov (top board), Kramnik, Karpov (3rd board !!!), Khalifman, Dreev/Bareev and Svidler, Rublevsky, Tiviakov, Morozevich couldn't make the cut. In 95% of other teams, each of the excluded 4 would be playing board 1. In women's chess Olympiad again at various times USSR, Russia, Georgia, Hungary, China fielded teams stronger than ROTW.

Similarly I am sure USA in basketball and USSR/Brazil in volleyball had teams that could dominate ROTW. And analysis of gymnastics too will be interesting.

 

[MMHS]

The 1st part of your post was solid and I agree with your assessment. Would like to add on about your last para.

Strictly talking about post 70s, I think Australian hockey team of beginning of this decade was more dominating than Pakistan of early 80s. But when you talk about global sports you can't name field hockey and ignore basketball. Basketball has more appeal on a global scale and field hockey in most Western nations (except Netherlands) is a minor sport, not even top 15 in most of their countries. In fact field hockey, badminton, table tennis, rugby, cricket, squash, baseball etc can never be called global sports IMO. Not sure about ice hockey either, whether it is a global sport or not.

Talking of global sports tennis has to be in the discussion. I am sure there were certain periods in 70s, 80s and early 90s when USA would beat rest of the world in both men's (Davis Cup) and women's (Fed Cup) team events, on almost every court. In 90s with Agassi, Chang and Courier I think even on clay they would beat ROTW. Look at the names they produced and compare it to peers, in men's there would be some resistance but between the Court/King/Goolagong era and arrival of Seles/Graff it was rampage by the American ladies.

In chess again it would have been a stomp by USSR over ROTW, Russia post USSR breakdown still would have won but not dominated. Between Fischer and Anand, there was uninterrupted reign for 3 decades when they held the title, they also won every team event possible. In the 90s when the rest of the world started catching up and USSR had given way to powerful chess nations like Ukraine, Georgia, Armenia etc, the Russian team fielded the following players for Olympiads: Kasparov (top board), Kramnik, Karpov (3rd board !!!), Khalifman, Dreev/Bareev and Svidler, Rublevsky, Tiviakov, Morozevich couldn't make the cut. In 95% of other teams, each of the excluded 4 would be playing board 1. In women's chess Olympiad again at various times USSR, Russia, Georgia, Hungary, China fielded teams stronger than ROTW.

Similarly I am sure USA in basketball and USSR/Brazil in volleyball had teams that could dominate ROTW. And analysis of gymnastics too will be interesting.

It was about team games, not individual sports or medal events.

Basketball has a global status now, but it wasn't the case in 1980s, 1990s; but yes even now an US team of Curry, Westbrook, Anthoy Davis, James, Durant, Leonard, Harden, Lillard ... will be untouchable.

I haven't watched a Field Hockey game for last 10-12 years because they have simply destroyed the beautiful game - it's more like the paranoid game we used to play in late 80s, early 90s , so may be the Aussie team is good. But, that PAK team of 1982 WC was unreal - they won almost every game by 5-6 goals margin and often didn't press enough in 2nd half with a 4-5 goals lead. I think, they swept everything in that 4-5 years - 2 WCs, 3 Champions Trophy, one Olympic and surely would have won Gold in 1980 Moscow game as well had they participated.

In Tennis, USA has about 10 times more population compared to other top tennis playing countries, therefore they are likely to have more individuals - but I don't think in 80s or even 70s, they would have dominated Davis Cup style Tennis contest with RoTW.

Take 1980s first: On Grass, may be McEnroe & Connors could have made a good fight, but RoTW would have Edberg & Becker. On Clay - no chance, Willander & Lendle was there. On their own Hard court, may be Conors, Mcenroe could have won 3 out of 4 singles over Lendle & Willander.

In 1970s: NO Chance - RoTW teams would have been among Borg, Nastase, Newcombe, Lever, Kodes, Rosewell, Gularmo Villas ..... even in Davis Cup, USA won 6 times in those 2 decades (out of 20, and made Finals 8 times) against individual countries. But yes, Chess was almost Russian (Jews) monopoly - at one time top 10 used to have 7-8 USSR players, but again it's an individual game, which was almost a religion in old Soviet Union. Having said that, using Tennis is probably not the best example because the game is dominated by Court type - even now, I think Spain'll beat a combined world team on Clay or Switzerland could have done so on grass few years back, because it's just 2 players, against a squad of 15-20 players, it's impossible in modern era because the games have moved from individual brilliance to combination based tactical games and lots of nations have improved their quality in global games.

Ice Hockey is a far more prominent game than Field Hockey or even Basketball - entire 1st world country excluding ANZ professionally plays the game and in many of the countries, it's actually top 2-3 team games. At present the best Volleyball team is Poland, last 2 World Champions - plays the game in a different level, but still in a World squad of 15, only 5 max 6 Polish players will make the squad and may be two'll start.

 

[Robert]

[MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] @ MMHS @ Bilal [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] do participate here Also @ Ab fan

Looks about right. Gooch could be fourth seamer if the match was in England.

Not sure about Amanarth though who had one excellent series but another where he couldn’t get a run. Might pick Crowe instead.

 

[Robert]

May not be. His 154* was one of the best innings, but I doubt his overall Test average against WIN is above 30!!! I saw glimpses of his batting in 1988 series in achieves - apart from 88* in a drawn Test, he was struggling big time to be dropped for 5th Test. With a home average of 23, you can't pick him. In fact, Javed's record in 1980s against win is better than Gower (overall poor because of 1977 & 1990, 94 Series). Martin Crowe, Boycott, Salim Malik, Kepler Wessels & Dean Jones had better claim than Gower and probably Amarnath as well, but Jimmy had that two legendary years of career.

Gower was asked which two words he wanted removed from English and if they were “laid back”. He quipped laconically “No, ‘Caught Dujon’ “.

 

[Swashbuckler]

It was about team games, not individual sports or medal events.

Basketball has a global status now, but it wasn't the case in 1980s, 1990s; but yes even now an US team of Curry, Westbrook, Anthoy Davis, James, Durant, Leonard, Harden, Lillard ... will be untouchable.

I haven't watched a Field Hockey game for last 10-12 years because they have simply destroyed the beautiful game - it's more like the paranoid game we used to play in late 80s, early 90s , so may be the Aussie team is good. But, that PAK team of 1982 WC was unreal - they won almost every game by 5-6 goals margin and often didn't press enough in 2nd half with a 4-5 goals lead. I think, they swept everything in that 4-5 years - 2 WCs, 3 Champions Trophy, one Olympic and surely would have won Gold in 1980 Moscow game as well had they participated.

In Tennis, USA has about 10 times more population compared to other top tennis playing countries, therefore they are likely to have more individuals - but I don't think in 80s or even 70s, they would have dominated Davis Cup style Tennis contest with RoTW.

Take 1980s first: On Grass, may be McEnroe & Connors could have made a good fight, but RoTW would have Edberg & Becker. On Clay - no chance, Willander & Lendle was there. On their own Hard court, may be Conors, Mcenroe could have won 3 out of 4 singles over Lendle & Willander.

In 1970s: NO Chance - RoTW teams would have been among Borg, Nastase, Newcombe, Lever, Kodes, Rosewell, Gularmo Villas ..... even in Davis Cup, USA won 6 times in those 2 decades (out of 20, and made Finals 8 times) against individual countries. But yes, Chess was almost Russian (Jews) monopoly - at one time top 10 used to have 7-8 USSR players, but again it's an individual game, which was almost a religion in old Soviet Union. Having said that, using Tennis is probably not the best example because the game is dominated by Court type - even now, I think Spain'll beat a combined world team on Clay or Switzerland could have done so on grass few years back, because it's just 2 players, against a squad of 15-20 players, it's impossible in modern era because the games have moved from individual brilliance to combination based tactical games and lots of nations have improved their quality in global games.

Ice Hockey is a far more prominent game than Field Hockey or even Basketball - entire 1st world country excluding ANZ professionally plays the game and in many of the countries, it's actually top 2-3 team games. At present the best Volleyball team is Poland, last 2 World Champions - plays the game in a different level, but still in a World squad of 15, only 5 max 6 Polish players will make the squad and may be two'll start.

Thanks for your insights.

I understand you were talking about team games in the earlier post. But since you mentioned golf (Ryder Cup) I thought I would throw my 2 cents because just like golf there are many individual sports where the team event has a prestigious place and long history associated eg tennis, chess, badminton etc. Also when you include women's sports I think you will get more examples of dominant teams, maybe because of less global presence and inferior competition.

Yeah stylistically and rule wise field hockey has changed and also become more global now. Because of the level of competition these days and Australia's domination in recent times I thought I would mention them. Between 2008 to 2014 they won 2 World Cups and 6 Champions Trophies, also podium place in the 2 Olympics. They were smashing teams left and right, before the 2010 WC I recall the Dutch coach saying that if Australia fielded 2 teams, those 2 teams would play the finals. What is most remarkable is that field hockey is a low profile sport in their country and most Aussies are unaware of their team's achievements.

In tennis I mentioned certain periods in 70s-early 90s, not the full decade. Like you said about Pakistani hockey in the 1980-82 period I was indicating small pockets of domination by US men's tennis team. Selecting best team of the decade, I agree ROTW would be outright favorites. Wrt clay I was talking about early 90s when they had Agassi, Courier and Chang. Muster was still recovering from that fateful accident, Wilander's reign was over and Kuerten was yet to arrive so ROTW would have been underdogs on American men's least favorite surface.

Tennis is a valid example because if we can talk about cricket (premise of this thread), why should tennis be any different? In fact when it comes to variance in playing surface, tennis (maybe golf/F1 but that is more due to geometry) is the only equivalent. Cricket pitches have varying character but so does tennis. Just like how subcontinental pitches differ in character there is intra surface variance in tennis. For example the Monte Carlo clay (slowest, highest bounce) and Madrid Open clay (skiddy clay, favors attackers and good serves) are quite different, just like Indian Wells HC (desert, quick through air, high bounce but slow on court) and Miami HC (humid, slower in air and quicker on court). Cricketers have to adapt to changing conditions, similar adjustment for tennis players. That is why even clay or HC specialists have their favorite venue. Since 2009 Djokovic has positive H2H on clay against Nadal but can't do much on Philippe Chatrier which amplifies Nadal's strengths like no other court in the world.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Looks about right. Gooch could be fourth seamer if the match was in England.

Not sure about Amanarth though who had one excellent series but another where he couldn’t get a run. Might pick Crowe instead.

Who do you feel will win?West Indies or ROW?

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Also waiting for you@Ab fan

 

[Harsh Thakor]

[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] do participate

 

[Robert]

Who do you feel will win?West Indies or ROW?

The Windies attack batters anyone down over a series.

Get them on a Bunsen and Qadir might spin them out.

 

[Reverse Sweep]

You need more Kiwis in there. Martin Crowe and Ian Smith should be definites. John Wright and Jeremy Coney are possibilities.

The Windies and NZ played 10 tests in the 1980s - the Windies won 3, NZ won 2, and there were 5 draws.

 

[MMHS]

Gower was asked which two words he wanted removed from English and if they were “laid back”. He quipped laconically “No, ‘Caught Dujon’ “.

Gower had a fascination of hitting it sweetly on the rise & squire, it was his signature shot, cause of down fall as well. Marshall, Walsh, Ambi, Bishop (must be previously Holding, Roberts as well), kept it just short of driving length and seemed it away off the wicket - Gower got in to that trap too many times. Apart from C Doujon, there were too many C Grineedge (At Gully) and C Richards/Richardson/Lloyd as well.