Russia invades Ukraine

[Technics 1210]

Absolutely not, because Russia has not been attacked.

Neither has any NATO member.

 

[Junaids]

So in response Russia is also entitled to self defence against Nato nations?

To keep this strictly legal, this is what international law states.

Ukraine has been invaded by Russia. This means that legally:

1. Ukraine has the right to take military action against any Russian targets in Ukrainian territory (including Crimea and Donbas) and against any Russians present in any part o9f Ukraine - including those - without the permission of the Government of Ukraine.

2. Ukraine has the right to take military action against any targets in Russia which are involved in the execution of the war in Ukraine. That includes any military target anywhere in Russia, but also railway lines and stations and roads which are used to transfer military staff or weapons from anywhere in Russia to Ukraine are also legally permitted targets.

3. Russia invaded Ukraine, and held unlawful referenda in areas of Ukraine that it then claimed to annex, so Russia has no right to "self-defence" because it is the invading party.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Absolutely not, because Russia has not been attacked.

It has by Nato trained men/women , by Nato weapons, Nato sanctions and Nato propaganda. So Nato can do a proxy war but Russia isnt allowed to retaliate? lol

The whole of Donbas - using their own Sham Referendum statistics from 2014, the population which was still in Donbas had fallen by 75% in Donetsk Oblast and by 78% in Luhansk Oblast.

So their own Sham Referenda are actually a signed confession of Ethnic Cleansing.

Disgusting to compare a referendum with ethnic cleansing. Please educate yourself on what this term means before ignorantly spouting it.

Or are you suggesting Russia has killed approx 1/4 of the population? IF so prove it.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Absolutely not, because Russia has not been attacked.

The whole of Donbas - using their own Sham Referendum statistics from 2014, the population which was still in Donbas had fallen by 75% in Donetsk Oblast and by 78% in Luhansk Oblast.

So their own Sham Referenda are actually a signed confession of Ethnic Cleansing.

To keep this strictly legal, this is what international law states.

Ukraine has been invaded by Russia. This means that legally:

1. Ukraine has the right to take military action against any Russian targets in Ukrainian territory (including Crimea and Donbas) and against any Russians present in any part o9f Ukraine - including those - without the permission of the Government of Ukraine.

2. Ukraine has the right to take military action against any targets in Russia which are involved in the execution of the war in Ukraine. That includes any military target anywhere in Russia, but also railway lines and stations and roads which are used to transfer military staff or weapons from anywhere in Russia to Ukraine are also legally permitted targets.

3. Russia invaded Ukraine, and held unlawful referenda in areas of Ukraine that it then claimed to annex, so Russia has no right to "self-defence" because it is the invading party.

Int law

Which law states foreign forces can train, arm, finance and direct people to a proxy war?

Interestingly you don't allow Palestinians to attack your Israeli brothers?

Let me educate you on history. Kosovo had a referendum orchestrated by the West. East of Ukraine did the same and only then did Russia intervene. Its ok for your Nato mates but not for Russia?

 

[Junaids]

So in response Russia is also entitled to self defence against Nato nations?

The thing that Russia supporters forget is that there are laws on all of this.

No country can claim that its ethnic/linguistic/religious group is being oppressed in another country and then proceed to invade that country, sample its own supporters, and annex that land. Otherwise Pakistan could use Tommy Robinson as a pretext to annex Bradford.

 

[Junaids]

Int law

Which law states foreign forces can train, arm, finance and direct people to a proxy war?

Interestingly you don't allow Palestinians to attack your Israeli brothers?

Let me educate you on history. Kosovo had a referendum orchestrated by the West. East of Ukraine did the same and only then did Russia intervene. Its ok for your Nato mates but not for Russia?

Again, completely wrong.

It was perfectly legal to arm and support the Palestinians in 1947. If they had formal armed forces now you could legally arm Fatah with weapons of war as opposed to terrorism, because their country is occupied.

You are literally and legally talking gobblydegook with your loose use of the term Proxy War.

It would be illegal for the USA to arm Ukraine to LAUNCH a proxy war against Poland.

It is perfectly legal for the USA to arm Ukraine to fight a war against Russia (which has invaded it) or Belarus (which has allowed its territory to be used for the invasion of Ukraine).

That is not a Proxy War. Those are perfectly legal arms sales and gifts to a country exercising its right to self-defence against an invader.

 

[Junaids]

Int law

Which law states foreign forces can train, arm, finance and direct people to a proxy war?

Article 51 of the UN Charter enshrines Ukraine's right to self-defence, and everyone else's right to supply Ukraine with weapons or soldiers.

 

[Technics 1210]

USA invaded Iraq illegally.

Move on and save the sanctimonious horsepukky.

 

[KingKhanWC]

The thing that Russia supporters forget is that there are laws on all of this.

No country can claim that its ethnic/linguistic/religious group is being oppressed in another country and then proceed to invade that country, sample its own supporters, and annex that land. Otherwise Pakistan could use Tommy Robinson as a pretext to annex Bradford.

Again, completely wrong.

It was perfectly legal to arm and support the Palestinians in 1947. If they had formal armed forces now you could legally arm Fatah with weapons of war as opposed to terrorism, because their country is occupied.

You are literally and legally talking gobblydegook with your loose use of the term Proxy War.

It would be illegal for the USA to arm Ukraine to LAUNCH a proxy war against Poland.

It is perfectly legal for the USA to arm Ukraine to fight a war against Russia (which has invaded it) or Belarus (which has allowed its territory to be used for the invasion of Ukraine).

That is not a Proxy War. Those are perfectly legal arms sales and gifts to a country exercising its right to self-defence against an invader.

Article 51 of the UN Charter enshrines Ukraine's right to self-defence, and everyone else's right to supply Ukraine with weapons or soldiers.

You claimed a referendum result is ethnic cleansing and now claim you are an expert on Int law

Israel, US , US, France all have broken and continue to break Int law. From Palestine, to Iraq to Syria but in your world this is ok but Russia has to stick to the rules.

Its embarrasing to debate with you.

So lets get a prediction...

When will Nato with its proxy war win the conflict, take all the areas under Russian control inc Crimea and Russia leaves? A month and year will do.

 

[Junaids]

You claimed a referendum result is ethnic cleansing and now claim you are an expert on Int law

Israel, US , US, France all have broken and continue to break Int law. From Palestine, to Iraq to Syria but in your world this is ok but Russia has to stick to the rules.

Its embarrasing to debate with you.

So lets get a prediction...

When will Nato with its proxy war win the conflict, take all the areas under Russian control inc Crimea and Russia leaves? A month and year will do.

This is a thread called "Russia Invades Ukraine".

You asked a question about the legality of Ukraine's actions (answer - legal) and Russia's actions (answer - illegal).

You didn't like my answer so you proceeded to try to gaslight by asking "yes, but which law says that?"

So I told you which law.

Now you are resorting to the classic Trump/Putin tactic of "whatboutism", of responding to having lost an argument by the distraction tactic of going on the counter-attack about something else.

Trump and Putin are a pair of bullies who compensate for their low intelligence by attacking their opponents, which turns on their supporters, who are a coalition of the semi-educated, the propaganda-fed and the intellectually-challenged.

This thread has nothing to do with Israel or Iraq. The only connection to Syria is the siumilar war crimes tactics that Russia continues to use against civilians there too.

I am not a mind-reader, so I don't know how soon Russia will collapse. It depends how much assistance the west gives Ukraine.

Let's be totally honest about this.

Currently the Ukrainians have access to the oldest. most obsolete 1% of America's weaponry, and it is enough for them to be winning the war but not at a quick rate.

If the Americans get to the point where they back it up with longer-range missiles, fighter aircraft and more modern technology, Ukraine would win very quickly.

But it is not necessarily possible to do that around American mi-term elections, plus from a strategic point of view, the more slowly Ukraine defeats Russia, the less weaponry the Russians have left and the less threat Russia is to its neighbours in the future.

 

[KingKhanWC]

This is a thread called "Russia Invades Ukraine".

You asked a question about the legality of Ukraine's actions (answer - legal) and Russia's actions (answer - illegal).

You didn't like my answer so you proceeded to try to gaslight by asking "yes, but which law says that?"

So I told you which law.

Now you are resorting to the classic Trump/Putin tactic of "whatboutism", of responding to having lost an argument by the distraction tactic of going on the counter-attack about something else.

Trump and Putin are a pair of bullies who compensate for their low intelligence by attacking their opponents, which turns on their supporters, who are a coalition of the semi-educated, the propaganda-fed and the intellectually-challenged.

This thread has nothing to do with Israel or Iraq. The only connection to Syria is the siumilar war crimes tactics that Russia continues to use against civilians there too.

I am not a mind-reader, so I don't know how soon Russia will collapse. It depends how much assistance the west gives Ukraine.

Let's be totally honest about this.

Currently the Ukrainians have access to the oldest. most obsolete 1% of America's weaponry, and it is enough for them to be winning the war but not at a quick rate.

If the Americans get to the point where they back it up with longer-range missiles, fighter aircraft and more modern technology, Ukraine would win very quickly.

But it is not necessarily possible to do that around American mi-term elections, plus from a strategic point of view, the more slowly Ukraine defeats Russia, the less weaponry the Russians have left and the less threat Russia is to its neighbours in the future.

Whataboutism is a poor excuse and not vaild here.

USA and UK are fighting a proxy war with Russia. The people who are fighting Russians dont obey Int law but you want Russia too? lol

So you have no clue now if Ukraine will win at all let alone a prediction of a timeline. Im glad you've woken up as I can quote months old posts from you jumping for joy claiming Russia has lost and Ukraine has won. Are you confused or changed your tune?

 

[Junaids]

Whataboutism is a poor excuse and not vaild here.

USA and UK are fighting a proxy war with Russia. The people who are fighting Russians dont obey Int law but you want Russia too? lol

So you have no clue now if Ukraine will win at all let alone a prediction of a timeline. Im glad you've woken up as I can quote months old posts from you jumping for joy claiming Russia has lost and Ukraine has won. Are you confused or changed your tune?

We are not fighting a proxy war with Russia.

Our friend and ally has been invaded by an evil government, and we are providing them with the weapons with which they can defend themselves.

And I know Russia cannot win, but I don't know how quickly they will lose. Biden clearly wants to do Russia slowly.

 

[Technics 1210]

LOL. Economic sanctions on Russia by NATO members is a direct attack on Russia by weaponising an economy.

NATO is fully involved in a proxy war vs. Russia.

 

[KingKhanWC]

We are not fighting a proxy war with Russia.

Our friend and ally has been invaded by an evil government, and we are providing them with the weapons with which they can defend themselves.

And I know Russia cannot win, but I don't know how quickly they will lose. Biden clearly wants to do Russia slowly.

Do keep up. Nato has admitted to training and equipping Ukrainian Nazis since 2014. Russia invaded in 2022.

Biden doesnt know his wifes name most of the day. So why claim in such a bullish , war cheerleading way Russia had lost months ago. You dont sound too confident now.

 

[bones]

As we expected Ukraine lied Izyum massacre / war crimes just like they did for Bucha. They are denying outside independent investigations to happen such as Amnesty International.

 

[Gilly]

As we expected Ukraine lied Izyum massacre / war crimes just like they did for Bucha. They are denying outside independent investigations to happen such as Amnesty International.

Do you have a source for this?.

 

[Junaids]

As we expected Ukraine lied Izyum massacre / war crimes just like they did for Bucha. They are denying outside independent investigations to happen such as Amnesty International.

How’s the DeNazification of Ukraine going? Given that Russia returned 50 Azov Battalion fighters yesterday?

 

[bones]

Do you have a source for this?.

The onus is on them to prove the Russians killed civilians and buried them not vice versa. Same with Bucha and guess what, nothing was proven. We are 6 months on.

 

[Robert]

So in response Russia is also entitled to self defence against Nato nations?

Of course, but no NATO state has ever invaded Russian sovereign territory, or ever will.

 

[Robert]

As we expected Ukraine lied Izyum massacre / war crimes just like they did for Bucha. They are denying outside independent investigations to happen such as Amnesty International.

France 24 debunked the Russian propaganda on this last night.

I continue to be shocked at how readily you repeat the lies of a despot.

 

[bones]

France 24 debunked the Russian propaganda on this last night.

I continue to be shocked at how readily you repeat the lies of a despot.

LOL, MSM debunking anything is the equivalent of letting who has spent thousands, marking their own exam papers.

Bucha was a lie, the lies unravelled very quickly and that's why footage and coverage became infrequent at best. Izyum is another lie.

Now I'm not saying individuals on both sides are completely innocent, but I can definitely say the Russians are going completely out of their way still to avoid civilian casualties.

I don't believe anything MSM says, they aren't even covering the farmer protests or energy prices protests across Europe that's how bad they are manipulating the public like you.

 

[Robert]

LOL, MSM debunking anything is the equivalent of letting who has spent thousands, marking their own exam papers.

Bucha was a lie, the lies unravelled very quickly and that's why footage and coverage became infrequent at best. Izyum is another lie.

Now I'm not saying individuals on both sides are completely innocent, but I can definitely say the Russians are going completely out of their way still to avoid civilian casualties.

I don't believe anything MSM says, they aren't even covering the farmer protests or energy prices protests across Europe that's how bad they are manipulating the public like you.

I think not believing everything “MSM” says is paranoia. Or at least a sort of self-applied blinkers. It belies a weakness for conspiracy theory.

Failing to report stories is one thing. Making stuff up is another - in the West, journalists get sacked for that, as Johnson was when he invented a story for The Times.

Not all news agencies in liberal democracies are controlled or pressurised by vested interests. Channel 4 News, for example. They showed the big anti-Brexit marches when the BBC did not.

But all news agencies are controlled by the state in Putin’s Russia. Go off-message there, and you get shot for it.

 

[bones]

But all news agencies are controlled by the state in Putin’s Russia. Go off-message there, and you get shot for it.

We've had this discussion before. I've told you how people are underselling the freedom of western press and overselling the lack of freedom in Russian/Chinese press in particular. So I'm not going to continue with it.

 

[Robert]

We've had this discussion before. I've told you how people are underselling the freedom of western press and overselling the lack of freedom in Russian/Chinese press in particular. So I'm not going to continue with it.

Then you are blotting out reality.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

We've had this discussion before. I've told you how people are underselling the freedom of western press and overselling the lack of freedom in Russian/Chinese press in particular. So I'm not going to continue with it.

this is a perfectly reasonable statement to make.

 

[bones]

Here are some example of biased reporting - it happens on both sides but MSM in the west are really bad right now.

BBC/CNN/SKY etc all running with headlines of Russians flee to avoid military drafting. They'll show some of the areas where people are leaving. What they won't show is the clips of regions where men are enlisting. What they won't tell you is the general opinion of the public in Russia is positive for the mobilisation and they want to see it through. Not one MSM source in the west is reporting that Putin's mobilisation call was met extremely positively in Russia.

BBC/SKY/CNN - where were the articles in Feb-Jun when Ukranian men were also leaving the country to avoid mobilisation.

It's very evident that MSM in the west refuses to write anything which is even remotely positive for Russia or negative for Ukraine.

 

[bones]

Here is another reason why no one should ever bother with MSM. Look at the article below:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62981289

"Russia's military is numerically superior to Ukraine's, but Ukraine's battlefield tactics and precision Western weapons have narrowed that gap."

This is such nonsense where do you begin? Russia's deploy numbers in Ukraine at the start were 1:3, meaning 3 Ukranians to every Russian. The fact that Russia managed to capture such a huge territory in just 6 months shows just how bad the Ukranians tactics have been. The Ukranians have failed to do anything near Kherson - bad tactics because even a blind man can see this area will mean their forces are sitting ducks.

"Ukraine's big counter-offensive in the northern Kharkiv region has put the Kremlin on the back foot, Western analysts and politicians say - which explains Vladimir Putin's latest move."

More nonsense - the reason why the Russians have had to mobilise is simple, the public and Kremlin realise there is going to be no negotiating, so they're going to take even more territory and Ukraine once allowed by their masters in Washington and London, will be signing capitulation terms. Putin and Russia did not want to do this, but the west have left them no choice. He has the public backing too, the public there are fed up with the Russophobia of the west and they want total victory, they support him.

"Defence Minister Shoigu gave a new death toll on Wednesday - 5,937 Russian troops killed. But that is still far below the estimate of 25,000 dead given by the UK defence ministry in June, while Ukraine claims the figure is about 50,000."

These figures from Russia are believable, 1 because if they did suffer the losses the Ukranians claim, the Russians wouldn't have a functioning army in Ukraine. Losing 50k, the equivalent to a quarter of the deployed men, is basically game over because Russia are the attacking force here. Why aren't the British Intelligence telling the truth about the Ukranian losses? We all know why, if they did the public would realise just how horrific the situation is for them.

Robert keeps saying western MSM is somewhat credible, with endless articles full of garbage like this - is it?

 

[bones]

Everyone in the west calling the referendum in Southern Ukraine a sham, well why don't they send their journalists to cover the referendums? Very difficult to objectively report on them from Kyiv, Warsaw or where they are based.

 

[Junaids]

Everyone in the west calling the referendum in Southern Ukraine a sham, well why don't they send their journalists to cover the referendums? Very difficult to objectively report on them from Kyiv, Warsaw or where they are based.

Because even by Russian figures, 75% of Donbas residents and Kherson residents have taken refuge in free Ukraine.

And they don’t get a vote.

 

[Robert]

Everyone in the west calling the referendum in Southern Ukraine a sham, well why don't they send their journalists to cover the referendums? Very difficult to objectively report on them from Kyiv, Warsaw or where they are based.

It's it obvious? Because Western journalists can't get behind the lines. You're acting like this is a free society with a free press. Putin won't allow foreign journalists to report on the referendums, because the truth will come out.

You are coming across as extraordinarily naive here.

https://thedispatch.com/p/signs-of-resistance-from-occupied#:~:text=It%20is%20nearly%20impossible%20for%20Western%20or%20Ukrainian,Russian%20propagandists%2C%20there%20is%20a%20flow%20of%20information.

https://rsf.org/en/war-ukraine-list-journalists-who-are-victims-gets-longer-day

 

[Junaids]

As we expected Ukraine lied Izyum massacre / war crimes just like they did for Bucha. They are denying outside independent investigations to happen such as Amnesty International.

Wrong.

The UN has just confirmed the Russian war crimes.

https://www.axios.com/2022/09/23/un-human-rights-evidence-war-crimes-ukraine-russia

 

[Ahmad-GERMANFC]

Everyone in the west calling the referendum in Southern Ukraine a sham, well why don't they send their journalists to cover the referendums? Very difficult to objectively report on them from Kyiv, Warsaw or where they are based.

Because those journalist will likely get killed. Tbis is a pretty stupid comment tbh

 

[SalimBhai]

Also very difficult to objectively report when there is a strong chance of you falling out of a window or falling off stairs.

 

[bones]

Russia has 25million reserves and have called up 300k apparently. The Russians will probably start to introduce these mobilised forces in 2-3 months. NATO are not going to be able to do much in response except putting boots on the ground. That won't happen because Russia see this as existential and are clear on it.

The only option is to negotiate, it's been the only option since day 1.

 

[Junaids]

Russia has 25million reserves and have called up 300k apparently. The Russians will probably start to introduce these mobilised forces in 2-3 months. NATO are not going to be able to do much in response except putting boots on the ground. That won't happen because Russia see this as existential and are clear on it.

The only option is to negotiate, it's been the only option since day 1.

Hardly.

Russia may have a lot of men in reserve, but they are not soldiers and they only have ancient weapons which have been in mothballs for half a century.

The only thing open for negotiation with Russia is its Unconditional Surrender and how it will fund the reparations for every damaged or destroyed building and road in Ukraine to be rebuilt.

Meanwhile, let me remind you that it was YOU who asked the west to observe the Sham Referenda in Donbas and Kherson.

Well, we now have the reports coming in from there.

There are no ballot papers. The Russian Army and its Ukrainian collaborators are going door-to-door, at gunpoint, asking residents whether they do or don't vote to join Russia.

The voters don't get to see the results that the Russian soldiers record on their behalf. They don't get to cast a secret ballot - they just tell a Russian soldier their response.

And none of the locals who have taken refuge in Free Ukraine - which is around 75% of the registered voters - has any way of voting.

 

[bones]

My view of the way things have unfolded in the last month is the following:

1. Western countries knew a referendum was coming - there were rumours flying around for a while and they needed to do something to delay them.
2. They mounted 3 counter offensives in Ukraine, the one near Kherson failed/is failing, one near Zaporozhia that looks like never materialised because of the big push near Kharkiv.
3. After this media win near Kharkiv that was platered all over western MSM, they probably thought they had delayed the referedum for now. They thought they had created panic in Russia and finally something might turn in their favour.
4. The counter offensive in Kharkiv was almost the best thing that could have happened for Russia, the public didn't panic, they were outraged, the general feeling amongst them was "how the heck have we ended up conceding such huge territory?"
5. Putin used this opportunity and did two massive things, first calling the referendums immediately and the 2nd was the partial mobilisation.
6. I don't think the partial mobilisation surprised the west that much, it was coming, all of us who know and understand military warefare know that the Russians didn't have enough manpower.
7. I do think the referendums being called almost immediately shocked the west, they didn't see it coming and now they really are in a pickle because:
8. Once these Oblasts join Russia, it matters not one iota if Wsshington or London accepts them, if any moves are made towards these territories then Putin has said and I'm paraphrasing "it will be existential to mother Russia".

The key thing I've noted in all of this is and it's very obvious, the Russians are behind Putin's decision to mobilise and united those Oblasts. The west are not - they don't have public backing and not only that - it's not existential to them.

 

[bones]

Just to correct my previous post- when I say the west are not united, I mean they are not united in fighting this proxy battle with Russia. They know they need men on the ground, but the public won't support this, especially since the common man has bigger problems to deal with.

 

[Robert]

Russia has 25million reserves and have called up 300k apparently. The Russians will probably start to introduce these mobilised forces in 2-3 months. NATO are not going to be able to do much in response except putting boots on the ground. That won't happen because Russia see this as existential and are clear on it.

The only option is to negotiate, it's been the only option since day 1.

Ukraine will not negotiate. And neither they should. Putin should pull out of all occupied territories.

 

[Manunited18]

Russia will not pull out. The thought of another zionest state in the mould of israel on their doorstep is what keeps them going.

 

[Robert]

A fake referendum does not make a place part of Russia, any more than Borat can announce that Pamela Anderson belongs to him.

It’s ludicrous. And if Russia are going to say “you touched Mother Russia” then bring it on.

Sure. won’t care what Putin’s refraudrendums say.

 

[bones]

Ukraine will not negotiate. And neither they should. Putin should pull out of all occupied territories.

Then Ukraine will watch as more of its territory moves into Russian hands. Those forces Russia is mobilising are to help in this regard.

 

[Robert]

Then Ukraine will watch as more of its territory moves into Russian hands. Those forces Russia is mobilising are to help in this regard.

Dad’s Army? I doubt they will gain ground. They are unmotivated. Putin’s war is starting to lose support at home as men facing conscription flee the country.

 

[bones]

Dad’s Army? I doubt they will gain ground. They are unmotivated. Putin’s war is starting to lose support at home as men facing conscription flee the country.

So let me get this straight, Ukraine who have gone through their 8th wave of mobilisation don’t have dad’s army but Russia who have partially mobilised are scraping the bottom of the barrel?

The thing you need to understand is other countries have military duty where all civilians who qualify must perform 1 or more years of duty. These are well trained individuals who just need to be brushed up before they return to duty.

The Uk doesn’t do this so perhaps that’s why you have this false opinion of the situation.

 

[cpleigh]

Then Ukraine will watch as more of its territory moves into Russian hands. Those forces Russia is mobilising are to help in this regard.

Dream on. Just more fodder. Ukranians will be rubbing their hands at it

Russia can't even arm them

 

[Robert]

So let me get this straight, Ukraine who have gone through their 8th wave of mobilisation don’t have dad’s army but Russia who have partially mobilised are scraping the bottom of the barrel?

The thing you need to understand is other countries have military duty where all civilians who qualify must perform 1 or more years of duty. These are well trained individuals who just need to be brushed up before they return to duty.

The Uk doesn’t do this so perhaps that’s why you have this false opinion of the situation.

Yes. And what you are ignoring is that the Ukraininans are all volunteers, motivated to defend their home and their women. The newly mobilised Russians are conscripts and will not want to fight.

I don't believe any Russian troops are well-trained, except special forces.

 

[bones]

Yes. And what you are ignoring is that the Ukraininans are all volunteers, motivated to defend their home and their women. The newly mobilised Russians are conscripts and will not want to fight.

I don't believe any Russian troops are well-trained, except special forces.

Then you are quite ignorant and/or biased.

Doesn’t matter how motivated the Ukrainians are because this isn’t call of duty, this is a real conflict where the enemy has at least 8 times more artillery.

 

[SalimBhai]

Seems Russia is getting a bit desperate. There are hoards of Russians in Istanbul now. Trying to get out of Russia so they dont have to serve in the army. Morale is low it seems.

 

[bones]

Dream on. Just more fodder. Ukranians will be rubbing their hands at it

Russia can't even arm them

You still think the Russians have suffered more losses than Ukraine so not sure why I’m giving you a response.

You deliberately chose to ignore the western sources that I provided explaining why the Russians are prepared for the long haul and Ukraine isn’t.

The Russians started to prepare for this conflict a few years ago.

By the way Russia are conducting referendums in south Ukraine and Ukrainian leaders and the collective west can’t do diddly squat about it.

 

[SalimBhai]

Then you are quite ignorant and/or biased.

Doesn’t matter how motivated the Ukrainians are because this isn’t call of duty, this is a real conflict where the enemy has at least 8 times more artillery.

Motivation does matter. Did USA not have more artillery than Afghanistan , Or Russia more than Afghanistan in the 80s??

 

[bones]

Here is more rubbish from MSM today. Russia will have problems training their mobilised forces with equipment they used during their military service. But at the same time Ukraine won’t have any problems being trained with equipment never used or even touched before coming from the west.

These are the kind experts covering this conflict feeding this nonsense to people and the people can’t even think about the stupidity of it all.

 

[bones]

Here is another brilliant statement I heard on MSM. Russia will have problems with their heavy tanks in the autumn and winter. No mention of Ukrainians having the same issue when they have either the same or heavier tanks.

Again these experts feed the people this nonsense and the people believe anything.

 

[SalimBhai]

Vladimir Putin has fired the general charged with managing the Russian military's faltering logistics operations in Ukraine.
Gen Dmitry Bulgakov, a deputy defence minister, was removed from his role on Saturday, the defence ministry said on Telegram.
The ministry said the 67-year old was "released" to transfer into a new role.
He will be replaced by Col Gen Mikhail Mizintsev, who managed Moscow's brutal siege at the port city of Mariupol.
Gen Bulgakov has run the military's logistics operations since 2008 and was responsible for keeping Russian troops supplied after their deployment to Syria in 2015.
But observers say he has become side-lined in Moscow in recent months, with many blaming him for the chaotic logistics operations that have dogged Russia's advance and seen their troops left undersupplied.
In recent months, the Kremlin has been forced to approach North Korea and Iran - two of its only remaining allies - for new artillery and drone supplies.
Gen Bulgakov's dismissal comes as footage circulated on social media showing newly drafted Russian recruits being equipped with rusty AK-47 assault rifles.
Pro-war figures in Russia have welcomed his dismissal and the appointment of Gen Mizintsev - who was sanctioned by the UK for his role commanding the Mariupol siege - will likely be welcomed by hardliners.
Gen Mizintsev, who was dubbed "the Butcher of Mariupol" by many Ukrainians, also led Russian forces in Syria and was accused of orchestrating a brutal bombing campaign that levelled the city of Aleppo.
The UK foreign office said he had used "reprehensible tactics" and committed "atrocities" in both the Ukrainian and Syrian conflicts when announcing sanctions against the 60-year old in March.
Mr Putin's personnel changes come amid reports that the Russian leader has taken personal charge of the war effort and has started issuing orders to generals in Ukraine himself.
US officials told CNN that the increasingly "dysfunctional command structure" in Moscow had forced Mr Putin to take a more active role in the war.
Last month, UK defence officials suggested that Mr Putin had side-lined his defence minister, Sergei Shoigu, after senior defence officials began to mock the top general's "ineffectual and out-of-touch leadership".
Meanwhile, the New York Times reported that Mr Putin had denied his commanders permission to retreat from the southern city of Kherson, where Ukrainian troops are slowly advancing.
Citing US intelligence sources, the paper said that his refusal to consider a pullback had caused a decrease in morale among Russian troops in the city, who are largely cut off from their supply lines and rely on a series of pontoon bridges to be re-equipped.

 

[cpleigh]

You still think the Russians have suffered more losses than Ukraine so not sure why I’m giving you a response.

You deliberately chose to ignore the western sources that I provided explaining why the Russians are prepared for the long haul and Ukraine isn’t.

The Russians started to prepare for this conflict a few years ago.

By the way Russia are conducting referendums in south Ukraine and Ukrainian leaders and the collective west can’t do diddly squat about it.

Forced back from Kyiv, failed to take Odessa, driven out of Kharkiv, still NOT taken Donbass.

And NOW they have to mobilise conscripts.

Absolutely deluded you are

 

[Technics 1210]

Meanwhile the GBP is hitting 35 year lows, while the Ruble is climbing.

You could not make this up.

)

 

[mazkhan]

Russia is beginning to use iranian drones now

They are swarming and exhausting ukranian air defences expensive missiles used to shoot cheap kamikaze drones. The drones have also struck targets .

The west is gonna have to fork out a lot of money now for this ukraine war to continue and also take a economic hit with energy its gonna cost uk 60 billion in 6 months just for the energy cap .

 

[bones]

Forced back from Kyiv, failed to take Odessa, driven out of Kharkiv, still NOT taken Donbass.

And NOW they have to mobilise conscripts.

Absolutely deluded you are

Look back at Putin’s speech right at the start of the SMO, he did not mention Kyiv or Kharkiv or Odesa. He only mentioned Donbas and Crimea.

Please provide a single quote from Putin where he says Kyiv, Kharkiv or Odesa were on the list of objectives. You won’t find any. However since April when the west told Ukraine to abort negotiations in Istanbul they will probably take them too.

You seem to think the Russians are in a hurry and running to CNN’s fantasy timetables. They have said repeatedly that they are in no hurry, they’re in fact looking forward to winter where every Russian will be walking around their warm houses in underwear and most of Europe will be dressed like Eskimos or in “warm centres”.

By the way what are Ukraine going to do about these referendums being held in “their” country. Not sure how you can gloat when an invading force is holding referendums.

 

[bones]

The west is gonna have to fork out a lot of money now for this ukraine war to continue and also take a economic hit with energy its gonna cost uk 60 billion in 6 months just for the energy cap .

That’s the point. Russia will continue until this is finished. It is existential for them. It is not for America or Europe. So when the general public struggles this winter, especially the vulnerable it’s going to be very difficult to justify funding Ukraine.

 

[MenInG]

Russia on Saturday toughened penalties for voluntary surrender and refusal to fight with up to 10 years imprisonment and replaced its top logistics general after a series of setbacks to its seven-month war in Ukraine.

The tough new amendments and personnel change come days after Russia instigated partial mobilisation with Kyiv taking back more and more territory in a counter-offensive.

It also comes as Kremlin-held regions of eastern and southern Ukraine voted for a second day on becoming part of Russia, dramatically raising the stakes.

Integrating the four regions into Russia would mean that Moscow would consider any military move there as an attack on its own territory.

Russia's attack, launched on February 24, and Ukraine's recent gains have laid bare flaws with some analysts seeing logistics as the weak link in Moscow's army.

"Army General Dmitry Bulgakov has been relieved of the post of deputy minister of defence" and will be replaced by Colonel General Mikhail Mizintsev, aged 60, the defence ministry said.

Russia's partial mobilisation announced on Wednesday will likely be one of his first big logistical challenges with the hundreds of thousands of reservists being called up needing to be equipped and trained before deployment.

Military-age men have sought to leave, with flights full and neighbouring countries receiving an influx of Russians, including Georgia where 2,300 private vehicles were waiting to enter at one crossing, regional Russian authorities said.

Now that President Vladimir Putin has signed the legislation, servicemen who desert, surrender "without authorisation", refuse to fight or disobey orders can face up to 10 years imprisonment.

Looting will be punishable by 15 years imprisonment.

A separate law, also signed on Saturday, facilitates Russian citizenship for foreigners who enlist in the Russian army as the Kremlin seeks to bolster the ranks.

On Friday, US President Joe Biden has dismissed as a "sham" the voting on whether Russia should annex four regions of Ukraine, which ends next Tuesday.

Even Beijing, Moscow's closest ally since the war began, called for the respect of "sovereignty and territorial integrity".

The voting is being held in Russian-controlled areas of Donetsk and Lugansk in the east, and Kherson and Zaporizhzhia in the south.

For four days, authorities are going door-to-door to collect votes. Polling stations then open Tuesday for residents to cast ballots on the final day. Results are expected as early as late Tuesday or Wednesday.

"Ultimately, things are moving towards the restoration of the Soviet Union. The referendum is one step towards this," Leonid, a 59-year-old military official, told AFP.

The snap referendums were announced just this week after the Ukrainian counter-offensive seized most of the northeast Kharkiv region -- bringing hundreds of settlements back under Kyiv's control after months of Russian occupation.

Irpin, close to the capital, was recaptured after weeks of fighting and residents have rallied to start rebuilding before winter sets in.

Over 100 apartment blocks in Irpin -- dubbed a "hero city" by President Volodymyr Zelensky for holding back Russian invaders -- were badly damaged by shelling.

Head of his building's residents' association Mykhailo Kyrylenko looked proudly at the new roof taking shape.

"People don't have much money, but they agreed" to donate funds to gradually restore the shattered homes, he told AFP.

Putin this week warned that Moscow would use "all means" to protect its territory -- which former Russian leader Dmitry Medvedev said on social media could include the use of "strategic nuclear weapons".

Zelensky has denounced the polls, on Friday calling them "crimes against international law and the law of Ukraine".

G7 nations declared the polls will "never" be recognised and have "no legal effect or legitimacy".

UN investigators on Friday accused Russia of committing war crimes on a "massive scale" in Ukraine -- listing bombings, executions, torture and horrific sexual violence.

In the eastern Kharkiv region, Ukrainian officials said they had exhumed 447 bodies from a site near the city of Izyum, which was recaptured from Russian forces.

"Most of them have signs of violent death, and 30 have signs of torture," said Kharkiv regional governor Oleg Synegubov.

"There are bodies with rope around their necks, with their hands tied, with broken limbs and gunshot wounds."

The Kremlin has accused Kyiv of fabricating evidence of the alleged war crimes.

https://www.msn.com/en-ae/news/worl...sedgntp&cvid=889f5f64c296413ef23a811ff1ad9228

 

[MenInG]

'More than 2,000 detained' in Russia after protests against mobilisation order

Yesterday we reported on protests in Russia against President Vladimir Putin's plan to mobilise hundreds of thousands of reservists to support its military campaign in Ukraine.

Independent monitoring group OVD-Info has now said more than 2,000 people were detained across the country for demonstrating against the draft, including 798 people in 33 towns.

 

[Gilly]

Russians are smarter than this, they don't want to be canon fodder for politics.

 

[cpleigh]

That’s the point. Russia will continue until this is finished. It is existential for them. It is not for America or Europe. So when the general public struggles this winter, especially the vulnerable it’s going to be very difficult to justify funding Ukraine.

It's not though is it? It might be for Putin and his mob but not russia

 

[Technics 1210]

'More than 2,000 detained' in Russia after protests against mobilisation order

Yesterday we reported on protests in Russia against President Vladimir Putin's plan to mobilise hundreds of thousands of reservists to support its military campaign in Ukraine.

Independent monitoring group OVD-Info has now said more than 2,000 people were detained across the country for demonstrating against the draft, including 798 people in 33 towns.

No different to Amreekan military personal who refused to fight in Iraq and Afghanistan and were handed a court marshal and prison sentence, yet the West is getting uppity about Putin.

 

[Junaids]

It has become clear that in European Russia the draft is only partial, but in Asian Russia it is all males up to the age of 55.

So much for Russia being an Asian nation. It’s clearly a European nation which uses it’s Asian Empire to produce wartime can on fodder.

 

[Junaids]

No different to Amreekan military personal who refused to fight in Iraq and Afghanistan and were handed a court marshal and prison sentence, yet the West is getting uppity about Putin.

The US number of deserters was 2,000 times smaller than the Russian number this week.

The US has a professional army.

Russia is sending semi-trained conscripts to war with ancient mothballed equipment.

 

[Technics 1210]

NATO bots continuing with their lies again.

It's all they have after Western sanctions failed. )

 

[Technics 1210]

The US number of deserters was 2,000 times smaller than the Russian number this week.

The US has a professional army.

Russia is sending semi-trained conscripts to war with ancient mothballed equipment.

Does not change the fact I mentioned, also not forgetting 10000s of Amreekan military personal criticised and continue to criticise the ILLEGAL invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan.

Claim that Afghanistan attacked USA so you can kill innocent folk in the name of the White JC ideology but throw a hissy fit when Putin follows the racist and fascist playbook of the West.

Run along with the professionalism.

 

[James]

<b>Planned concerts in Poland by Pink Floyd co-founder Roger Waters have been cancelled amid outrage over the musician's stance on the Ukraine war.</b>

The concert's promoter, Live Nation Poland, confirmed the cancellation but gave no reason for it.

The controversy was triggered by an open letter Waters wrote to Ukraine's first lady, Olena Zelenska.

In it, he said, "extreme nationalists" in Ukraine "have set your country on the path to this disastrous war".

He accused her husband, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, of failing to fulfil his election campaign promises to bring peace to the Donbas region and and made no mention of Russia's responsibility for the war.

In response, Mrs Zelenska wrote on Twitter that it was Russia which invaded Ukraine and was now destroying its cities and killing civilians.

"Roger Waters, you should ask for peace from the president of another country," she wrote.

Mr Water's open letter led Łukasz Wantuch, a Krakow city councillor, to urge people to boycott the concerts.

City councillors have drafted a resolution to declare Mr Waters persona non grata, due to be voted on at a session on September 28.

"Taking into account Russia's criminal attack on Ukraine as well as the increasing number of war crimes committed by Russian soldiers that are coming to light, [the councillors] express outrage at the theses and statements made by Mr Roger Waters in connection with Russia's invasion of Ukraine," the resolution states.

Mr Waters, currently on tour in the US, hit back in another Facebook post entitled "Hey Łukasz Wantuch, Leave them kids alone", referencing the lyrics of the classic Pink Floyd song, Another Brick in the Wall.

He denied an earlier media report that he or his management had cancelled the concerts themselves and accused Mr Wantuch of the "draconian censoring" of his work.

Asked whether the cancellation was connected to Mr Waters' comments, a venue spokesman for the Tauron Arena in Krakow told the BBC: "No comment."

The Polish government has been a staunch ally of Mr Zelensky. It has sent hundreds of Soviet-era tanks and other armaments to Ukraine and encouraged the European Union to introduce tougher sanctions against Russia.

Following Russia's invasion of Ukraine in February, the government decided to open Poland's borders to millions of Ukrainian women and children fleeing the fighting.

According to the United Nations' Refugee Agency, UNHCR, close to 1.4 million Ukrainians have registered for temporary protection in neighbouring Poland.

Hundreds of thousands of refugees have been put up by Poles in their own homes.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-63026101

———

Interesting…

 

[James]

We won’t allow any posts which accuse fellow users of being liars.

 

[Robert]

———

Interesting…

Disappointing from Roger.

 

[Junaids]

Predictably it is Dagestan where the Russian mobilisation is causing civil unrest.

Dagestan is a perfect example of a region which is a Russian colony whose people are treated worse than white Christian Russians.

In cities like Moscow and St Petersburg, roughly 5% of males aged 18-50 have been drafted.

In Dagestan it is over 95%.

Why? Because 83% of Dagestanis are Muslim, and Russia treats them as its subjects, not its citizens.

This crazy mobilisation may well break up the Russian Empire.

 

[Junaids]

Also, in Crimea just 5% of ethnic Russians have been conscripted.

But over 85% of Crimean Tatars have been drafted.

And they are being sent to the front after ONE DAY of training!!!!!

 

[SalimBhai]

Predictably it is Dagestan where the Russian mobilisation is causing civil unrest.

Dagestan is a perfect example of a region which is a Russian colony whose people are treated worse than white Christian Russians.

In cities like Moscow and St Petersburg, roughly 5% of males aged 18-50 have been drafted.

In Dagestan it is over 95%.

Why? Because 83% of Dagestanis are Muslim, and Russia treats them as its subjects, not its citizens.

This crazy mobilisation may well break up the Russian Empire.

It’s always easier to send other peoples sons to fight your wars

 

[mazkhan]

Well the ethnic minorities have to be sent to the fontlines

Because the white russians won't kill fellow white ukranianisns since they are ethnically and religiously the same.
Also the white russins simply keep on being routed surrendering and if any reservists and conscripts that are called up most are alcoholics and in bad shape.

Dagestanis are tough and like a good scrap

Wonder if khabib nurmagedov goes ?

 

[MenInG]

Demonstrators in Russia's Dagestan region have clashed with police, in the latest protests to break out against Moscow's new "partial mobilisation".

OVD-Info, an independent Russian human rights monitor, said over 100 people were arrested during protests in the regional capital Makhachkala.

The group added that it was concerned by reports of "very tough detentions" occurring in the province.

Dagestan is a mainly Muslim region of Russia once noted for intense violence.

While large protests have taken place in major cities across Russia in recent days - with more than 700 people being arrested on Saturday alone - the images of Dagestani demonstrators fighting with police marks a rare outbreak of violence against authorities.

Dozens of videos posted to social media showed protesters confronting police and other security officials in Makhachkala, with OVD-Info reporting that officers resorted to using stun guns and truncheons on the crowds.

In one video, a man detained by officials headbutts a police officer, before being beaten by other personnel.

Another video showed a security officer fleeing from a large group of demonstrators, some of whom attempted to grab and trip him as he ran.

BBC

 

[bones]

Another regime change in Italy and whilst western MSM will label anything remotely right wing as far right, this time this part does actually have some moderately right wing policies.

So how many regime changes in Europe vs how many in Russia? Not looking like the sanctions are doing what they set out to. Have to laugh at the stupidity of the European leaders following their masters over in Washington down this road of doom.

 

[Junaids]

Russians reportedly encircled at Lyman but Putin refusing to let them surrender.

 

[90MPH]

This crazy adventure is going from bad to worse for Putin.

He’s now so desperate since his professional army has taken a battering he needs the reservists to save him from total embarrassment.

The problem is reservists or conscripts are not fully trained for war. They will only fight your war if they believe their nation is in deep peril for its existence.
I suspect most will not be motivated to fight this war of conquest despite the tons of state propaganda being thrown their throats for the past 7 months.

 

[Technics 1210]

Another regime change in Italy and whilst western MSM will label anything remotely right wing as far right, this time this part does actually have some moderately right wing policies.

So how many regime changes in Europe vs how many in Russia? Not looking like the sanctions are doing what they set out to. Have to laugh at the stupidity of the European leaders following their masters over in Washington down this road of doom.

Indeed. Right wing parties coming into power, austerity on the rise, GBP hitting all time lows, energy crisis on the horizon, and these warmongering NATO bots think Russia has lost; they could not be further from the truth.

Europe is done; and Putin has achieved his goal. Now Putin will focus on the economies of the East with BRICS+ while Europe will heads to the IMF with a begging bowl and scented candles.

 

[sweep_shot]

This crazy adventure is going from bad to worse for Putin.

He’s now so desperate since his professional army has taken a battering he needs the reservists to save him from total embarrassment.

The problem is reservists or conscripts are not fully trained for war. They will only fight your war if they believe their nation is in deep peril for its existence.
I suspect most will not be motivated to fight this war of conquest despite the tons of state propaganda being thrown their throats for the past 7 months.

I wouldn't say Putin gained nothing. He has shaken up enemy nations and increased their economic burden.

Russia could've ended this very quickly; but, they showed restrain. I guess they wanted to minimize civilian casualties.

 

[cpleigh]

I wouldn't say Putin gained nothing. He has shaken up enemy nations and increased their economic burden.

Russia could've ended this very quickly; but, they showed restrain. I guess they wanted to minimize civilian casualties.

You keep peddling this nonsense. How could they have ended it very quickly?