Should Allama Iqbal Day be a national holiday in Pakistan? Shahid Afridi disagrees

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Two Nation Theory was disproved in 1971.

One nation theory has been disproved since 1947. Currently 3 nation theory is in ascendancy but the situation is fluid.

 

[kk1992]

And who brought them in power and ignored their corruption for decades?

Let's not play naive.

 

[miandadrules]

So the corrupt and criminals are victims of their circumstances. Good one.

The whole system is corrupt to its core.

The sooner the populace realises this and demands more from there representatives nothing will be achieved.

Pakistanis are waiting for a saviour to turn the fortunes around. The saviour is the people themselves.

 

[Captain caveman]

Hold on.

Didn’t you say I was the one with poor comprehension?

I am getting the impression that you are a wind up merchant.

Anyway, Happy Allama Iqbal day!

 

[Mamoon]

Let's not play naive.

I asked a simple question. It is fine if you don’t want to answer.

 

[kk1992]

I asked a simple question. It is fine if you don’t want to answer.

Like I said, let's not play naive. Everyone on this forum is aware of history.

Not only I am aware of history but I am also aware of current reality and what needed to be done.

Your argument fall flat when you support Mulana and hoping for IK resignation while supporting corrupt politician.

 

[Mamoon]

One nation theory has been disproved since 1947. Currently 3 nation theory is in ascendancy but the situation is fluid.

How has the One Nation Theory been disproved?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

How has the One Nation Theory been disproved?

You don't accept partition happened?

 

[miandadrules]

Like I said, let's not play naive. Everyone on this forum is aware of history.

Not only I am aware of history but I am also aware of current reality and what needed to be done.

Your argument fall flat when you support Mulana and hoping for IK resignation while supporting corrupt politician.

History and reality.

I may have missed it but other than stating these words you have substantiated anything.

 

[Mamoon]

Like I said, let's not play naive. Everyone on this forum is aware of history.

Not only I am aware of history but I am also aware of current reality and what needed to be done.

Your argument fall flat when you support Mulana and hoping for IK resignation while supporting corrupt politician.

So the military have become the good guys all of a sudden?

I don’t support Maulana. I support anyone who opposes the military at any given point.

 

[kk1992]

History and reality.

I may have missed it but other than stating these words you have substantiated anything.

Brah, according to you, I'd be bigot, and few post ago, you told an individual that you do not associate with bigots, so why are you keep lapping up on my leg like a lost puppy?

 

[Mamoon]

You don't accept partition happened?

And which country has fared better?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

And which country has fared better?

What has that got to do with one nation theory?

 

[kk1992]

So the military have become the good guys all of a sudden?

I don’t support Maulana. I support anyone who opposes the military at any given point.

As long as they do not conduct another coup.

You do not support Maulana but you support Maulana. which one is it?

 

[Mamoon]

What has that got to do with one nation theory?

Everything. The country that believed that India should be one country has fared far better than the one that wanted Muslims to go on their separate ways.

 

[Mamoon]

As long as they do not conduct another coup.

You do not support Maulana but you support Maulana. which one is it?

I don’t support Maulana for who he is. I support him because he is currently aligned against the military. When that changes, I will not support him.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Everything. The country that believed that India should be one country has fared far better than the one that wanted Muslims to go on their separate ways.

In that case 2 nation theory has been proved correct for India, and your contention that it has been disproved is wrong.

 

[Captain caveman]

Everything. The country that believed that India should be one country has fared far better than the one that wanted Muslims to go on their separate ways.

Grass is always greener on the other side.

India is not utopia!
I am british and trust me, though we arent utopia either, compared to india you can say we are.

 

[miandadrules]

As long as they do not conduct another coup.

You do not support Maulana but you support Maulana. which one is it?

Always dangerous to side with your enemies enemy.

Maulana and his ilk are just as poisonous.

I’d side with the common person rather any of these leaders.

 

[Mamoon]

Grass is always greener on the other side.

India is not utopia!
I am british and trust me, though we arent utopia either, compared to india you can say we are.

India is not utopia, but it is far better than Pakistan.

 

[miandadrules]

In that case 2 nation theory has been proved correct for India, and your contention that it has been disproved is wrong.

How?

 

[Mamoon]

In that case 2 nation theory has been proved correct for India, and your contention that it has been disproved is wrong.

India gained nothing from partition, but we lost plenty.

 

[Captain caveman]

In that case 2 nation theory has been proved correct for India, and your contention that it has been disproved is wrong.

Game, set and match, to Cpt Rishwat!

 

[Mamoon]

[MENTION=151173]kk1992[/MENTION]

Please explain why military intervention is necessary for democracy to thrive in Pakistan? How is it democracy when the military are influencing election results?

 

[Local.Dada]

In that case 2 nation theory has been proved correct for India, and your contention that it has been disproved is wrong.

Not really. India shows that people of different languages,religion,custom,ethnicities,class and caste can co-exist peacefully. Before you go on a google search hunt to post isolated skirmishes, obviously in a large country with an even larger population, it can't be one big party every day.

India has moved on and have had icons from every community and class.

On the other hand Pakistan formed on the principle that islam cannot coexist with other religions was broken up on the language and ethnic divide.

So how is India an example of proving 2 nation theory. Makes no sense to me.

By the way not taking a dig here, I hope Pakistan has learnt from it's mistakes and is doing a better job with the national integration part.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

India gained nothing from partition, but we lost plenty.

You can't turn back history. I am not a supporter of partition for what it is worth, have said as much many times on here, but Indians themselves believe in partiton in today's world, to the extent that they have erected fences even with 'friendly' Bangladesh. So partition has happened and it isn't going to go back. We can call if 3 nation theory if that makes it more palatable.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Not really. India shows that people of different languages,religion,custom,ethnicities,class and caste can co-exist peacefully. Before you go on a google search hunt to post isolated skirmishes, obviously in a large country with an even larger population, it can't be one big party every day.

India has moved on and have had icons from every community and class.

On the other hand Pakistan formed on the principle that islam cannot coexist with other religions was broken up on the language and ethnic divide.

So how is India an example of proving 2 nation theory. Makes no sense to me.

By the way not taking a dig here, I hope Pakistan has learnt from it's mistakes and is doing a better job with the national integration part.

Indians like yourself are happy with partition. But by all means correct me if that is wrong.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Not really. India shows that people of different languages,religion,custom,ethnicities,class and caste can co-exist peacefully. Before you go on a google search hunt to post isolated skirmishes, obviously in a large country with an even larger population, it can't be one big party every day.

India has moved on and have had icons from every community and class.

On the other hand Pakistan formed on the principle that islam cannot coexist with other religions was broken up on the language and ethnic divide.

So how is India an example of proving 2 nation theory. Makes no sense to me.

By the way not taking a dig here, I hope Pakistan has learnt from it's mistakes and is doing a better job with the national integration part.

No Pakistan was formed because Muslim League and Congress could not agree on how to share power. If the shoe was on the other foot, and Hindus were the minority in India as a whole, but majority in a few provinces, they might have wanted Partition as well. Its easier being in the majority than the minority in any country.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

India gained nothing from partition, but we lost plenty.

We have a country where we are the majority. in a perfect world it would be like US (India) canada (Pakistan) relationship. But with Hindus and Muslims both having political power.

I have lived in the West my entire life. Its not easy being the minority.

If Pakistan is not successful today, that is a result of Pakistanis, and it does not mean that the creation of the country was a mistake.

 

[Local.Dada]

Indians like yourself are happy with partition. But by all means correct me if that is wrong.

Only in hindsight looking at all the problems Pakistan has amassed due to incompetent leadership. I wouldn't use the term happy though because problems in Pakistan causes headaches for us as well. Pakistan prospering will have a direct impact on India's progress and we can do much better than we are.

You may not care but there are no actual guiding rules but the basic philosophy of Hinduism is 'Vasudeva Kutumbam" which means the world is one big family. Indian ethos and philosophy is never about divide but unity.

 

[Captain caveman]

Its really sad to read the posts of pakistanis who wished partition did not occur.
Allama iqbal sahib must be turning in his grave!

Happy Allama Iqbal Day and good night!

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

So Mamoon, you can see that while you may yearn for reunification, Indians themselves don't want to know. They are quite happy bullying the now powerless Muslim leftovers in their part of the country, demolishing mosques and banning beef.

Two nation theory was proved, and has now been cemented into 3 nation fact. We have got further away from one nation rather than two nation.

 

[Mamoon]

Its really sad to read the posts of pakistanis who wished partition did not occur.
Allama iqbal sahib must be turning in his grave!

Happy Allama Iqbal Day and good night!

He twisted and turned in his grave in 1971.

 

[Mamoon]

So Mamoon, you can see that while you may yearn for reunification, Indians themselves don't want to know. They are quite happy bullying the now powerless Muslim leftovers in their part of the country, demolishing mosques and banning beef.

Two nation theory was proved, and has now been cemented into 3 nation fact. We have got further away from one nation rather than two nation.

No one wants reunification. We have done enough damage to our half for Indians to consider it to good riddance.

We need to take a good look at ourselves. Why is it that both India and Bangladesh have done better than us? What do they have that we lack?

As far as the treatment of Muslims in India is concerned, we have no right to be point fingers at them when we treat our minorities worse.

Indian Muslims are doing far better than Pakistani Hindus, Christians, Ahmadis etc.

 

[Captain caveman]

He twisted and turned in his grave in 1971.

You think indias so great, i have relatives in both pakistan and india and all of them complain(mostly about money).
i have come to the conclusion that none of yous pakistanis or indians, deserve indepenrence and we brits should still be ruling over yous!
You would be a 1st world country by now, instead of 3rd world countries!

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

No one wants reunification. We have done enough damage to our half for Indians to consider it to good riddance.

We need to take a good look at ourselves. Why is it that both India and Bangladesh have done better than us? What do they have that we lack?

As far as the treatment of Muslims in India is concerned, we have no right to be point fingers at them when we treat our minorities worse.

Indian Muslims are doing far better than Pakistani Hindus, Christians, Ahmadis etc.

So why didn't you just say that we could learn from India and Bangladesh in some aspects rather than twist on about failure of two nation theory? You might also want to address how they are learning from us and growing the Hindu version of the Taliban. Or maybe that version of Indian progress is hitting a blind spot for you?

For all their progress which you keep lauding by the way, India and Bangladesh still don't look much more inviting place to live for the average person. In fact you could argue they offer a worse lifestyle right now.

 

[Mamoon]

So why didn't you just say that we could learn from India and Bangladesh in some aspects rather than twist on about failure of two nation theory? You might also want to address how they are learning from us and growing the Hindu version of the Taliban. Or maybe that version of Indian progress is hitting a blind spot for you?

For all their progress which you keep lauding by the way, India and Bangladesh still don't look much more inviting place to live for the average person. In fact you could argue they offer a worse lifestyle right now.

Learning from India and Bangladesh is independent to the failure of the Two Nation Theory. Both can be discussed separately.

India and Bangladesh are still third world countries. They are doing better than Pakistan but they are obviously behind the western world.

Both India and Bangladesh have something in common which we don’t - civil supremacy. India has never been ruled by the military, while Bangladesh have had a couple of coups but they have resisted to the point where the military is now subservient to the federal government.

 

[marlonbrowndo]

The whole system is corrupt to its core.

The sooner the populace realises this and demands more from there representatives nothing will be achieved.

Pakistanis are waiting for a saviour to turn the fortunes around. The saviour is the people themselves.

The Pakistani populace is mostly ignorant, poor and uneducated. Why should they care about the greater good when someone offers them a few meals instead?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Learning from India and Bangladesh is independent to the failure of the Two Nation Theory. Both can be discussed separately.

India and Bangladesh are still third world countries. They are doing better than Pakistan but they are obviously behind the western world.

Both India and Bangladesh have something in common which we don’t - civil supremacy. India has never been ruled by the military, while Bangladesh have had a couple of coups but they have resisted to the point where the military is now subservient to the federal government.

I am a fan of civil supremacy, if only because I have a long held suspicion that military govts can be bought off. But then so can civilian govts in the third world. Anyway we are getting into deeper waters here. You are assuming all nations are equal in natural resources and hence free from disruption from foreign forces who covet those resources. India and Bangladesh have had an easy ride in the last 50 years yet they still haven't pulled ahead visibly from Pakistan to the average observer. I wonder how they will handle adverse conditions if those come about in the next half century?

 

[Azzurri]

Every argument involving Mamoon ends in military bashing. This guys is just hopeless

 

[Mamoon]

I am a fan of civil supremacy, if only because I have a long held suspicion that military govts can be bought off. But then so can civilian govts in the third world. Anyway we are getting into deeper waters here. You are assuming all nations are equal in natural resources and hence free from disruption from foreign forces who covet those resources. India and Bangladesh have had an easy ride in the last 50 years yet they still haven't pulled ahead visibly from Pakistan to the average observer. I wonder how they will handle adverse conditions if those come about in the next half century?

India and Bangladesh have had easier rides because their military have not dictated their foreign policy to serve their interests ahead of the nation’s. A country where the military is the central power will always be unstable, because that is when the military thrives.

If the average observer does not see that Pakistan is clearly lagging behind Bangladesh and especially India, he/she is simply ignorant and needs to wake up.

 

[Mamoon]

Every argument involving Mamoon ends in military bashing. This guys is just hopeless

Because eventually every significant problem of Pakistan has roots in the strategic decisions of the military.

 

[Mamoon]

The status quo has been maintained in Kashmir because the military needs to maintain hostile relations with India to eat up the budget and live lavishly.

East Pakistan was alienated because of Gen. Ayub Khan’s bigotry.

Balochistan has been alienated because of a separatist movement that is rooted in the military’s illegal occupation of Kalat, a district in Balochistan. In order to ensure that their separatist movement does not gather steam, we have kept them poor and uneducated,

FATA has become the breeding ground for terrorism because of the military’s mercenary role during the Cold War and WoT.

Extremism and radical ideology has been on the rise because of Gen. Zia.

Corrupt politicians? They were launched by the military and their corruption was protected as long as they were serving the military’s interests.

It is not possible to have peace and friendly relations with your neighbors as well with the different groups within the country if the military is the central power of the state, because the military profits when there is war and conflict. That is there business.

 

[uberkoen]

Rather than Iqbal day we should have Diwali and Christmas as holidays. Respect all religions and show the minorities of our country that they matter.

 

[Captain caveman]

The status quo has been maintained in Kashmir because the military needs to maintain hostile relations with India to eat up the budget and live lavishly.

East Pakistan was alienated because of Gen. Ayub Khan’s bigotry.

Balochistan has been alienated because of a separatist movement that is rooted in the military’s illegal occupation of Kalat, a district in Balochistan. In order to ensure that their separatist movement does not gather steam, we have kept them poor and uneducated,

FATA has become the breeding ground for terrorism because of the military’s mercenary role during the Cold War and WoT.

Extremism and radical ideology has been on the rise because of Gen. Zia.

Corrupt politicians? They were launched by the military and their corruption was protected as long as they were serving the military’s interests.

It is not possible to have peace and friendly relations with your neighbors as well with the different groups within the country if the military is the central power of the state, because the military profits when there is war and conflict. That is there business.

Even if the military was to magically disappear and you had a civilian government, prejuidice in the way the country is run will continue.
Even in wealthy rich countries like my own, the uk, goverent prejuidice occurs between the rich and the poor.

Your mind is in an utopian fantasy world(which i respect) but the reality of evolution is that mankind is a tribal species and prejudices will always exist, its in Mans nature!

 

[miandadrules]

Even if the military was to magically disappear and you had a civilian government, prejuidice in the way the country is run will continue.
Even in wealthy rich countries like my own, the uk, goverent prejuidice occurs between the rich and the poor.

Your mind is in an utopian fantasy world(which i respect) but the reality of evolution is that mankind is a tribal species and prejudices will always exist, its in Mans nature!

I’m sure you wouldn’t call this apologetics either.

 

[Captain caveman]

I’m sure you wouldn’t call this apologetics either.

God not you again, please take you medicines, you going to do yourself an injury.

 

[miandadrules]

God not you again, please take you medicines, you going to do yourself an injury.

I’ll take that as a yes.

 

[Captain caveman]

I’ll take that as a yes.

No! Take your medicines!

Apologetic - NO
Realistic - YES

 

[miandadrules]

No! Take your medicines!

Apologetic - NO
Realistic - YES

Now it’s realistic.


You seem to want to project yourself as a paragon of rationality, facts and realism. Something you’ve referred to in almost every post, whilst using it for apologetics and justification of heinous crimes.

Unfortunately, you provided nothing in the way supporting evidence, other than tired platitudes.

So, why don’t you start and then we’ll see who needs their meds.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

India and Bangladesh have had easier rides because their military have not dictated their foreign policy to serve their interests ahead of the nation’s. A country where the military is the central power will always be unstable, because that is when the military thrives.

If the average observer does not see that Pakistan is clearly lagging behind Bangladesh and especially India, he/she is simply ignorant and needs to wake up.

If I show you images from India and Bangladesh, they are not going to look any more advanced than Pakistan. I was watching a program called My restaurant in India which followed a chef from Australia, and I was struck how they looked if anything worse than the streets of Pakistan.

I read a news article yesterday about Dehli's terrible affliction with smog, yet totalitarian China has managed to get rid of their pollution crisis within a generation.

So no, the average person isn't going to see what you are seeing, but then perhaps you have been watching too many youtube videos about India dominating the world by 2025. Who knows? It could still happen.

 

[Captain caveman]

Now it’s realistic.


You seem to want to project yourself as a paragon of rationality, facts and realism. Something you’ve referred to in almost every post, whilst using it for apologetics and justification of heinous crimes.

Unfortunately, you provided nothing in the way supporting evidence, other than tired platitudes.

So, why don’t you start and then we’ll see who needs their meds.

No i do not apologise or justify heinous crimes of the past, but i am realistic to know that these crimes were not just committed by one group, but by many in power in the past. The history books and the web will be able to asist you on finding a plentitude of examples.

 

[miandadrules]

No i do not apologise or justify heinous crimes of the past, but i am realistic to know that these crimes were not just committed by one group, but by many in power in the past. The history books and the web will be able to asist you on finding a plentitude of examples.

So, what evidence did you provide?

You know, with my comprehension skills, I may have missed it.

 

[Captain caveman]

So, what evidence did you provide?

You know, with my comprehension skills, I may have missed it.

Look up some of these -
The Roman empire
The British empire
Nazi germany
The american civil war
The english civil war
The partition of india
The partition of pakistan
The vietnam war
The crusades
The bosnian war
The kenyan resistance
The khalistan resistance
The kashmiri conflict
The arab/israeli conflict
Etc
That should be enough reading up for you, to keep you quiet til the new year!

 

[miandadrules]

Look up some of these -
The Roman empire
The British empire
Nazi germany
The american civil war
The english civil war
The partition of india
The partition of pakistan
The vietnam war
The crusades
The bosnian war
The kenyan resistance
The khalistan resistance
The kashmiri conflict
The arab/israeli conflict
Etc
That should be enough reading up for you, to keep you quiet til the new year!

I’m aware of all them.

Please care to elaborate how this relates to what you claim.

Please don’t insult our intelligence with broad, blanket statements. Try to be a little specific.

And round it up with a nice conclusion.

If your conclusion is everyone is guilty, then what is your point? Please be specific, I know it’s difficult.

Then we can truly scrutinise your points. It should be very enlightening as you are also very well versed in history and politics, as a human nature, psychology and sociology.

 

[Danyaalr01]

I would distinguish between the rich and the poor. Let’s not be materialistic.

I would distinguish between the educated and uneducated. The uneducated are more prone to demagogy and political rhetoric, and they are the ones brimming with hope because they have little to no understanding of the history of Pakistan, the history of Pakistan politics, the role the Pakistani military has played to undermine democracy, and the role the Pakistani military is currently playing.

So the majority of overseas Pakistanis are uneducated?

 

[Mamoon]

If I show you images from India and Bangladesh, they are not going to look any more advanced than Pakistan. I was watching a program called My restaurant in India which followed a chef from Australia, and I was struck how they looked if anything worse than the streets of Pakistan.

I read a news article yesterday about Dehli's terrible affliction with smog, yet totalitarian China has managed to get rid of their pollution crisis within a generation.

So no, the average person isn't going to see what you are seeing, but then perhaps you have been watching too many youtube videos about India dominating the world by 2025. Who knows? It could still happen.

Your yardstick for development is shallow. There is more to advancement than how the streets look. Overpopulation is a massive problem for India and it is not easy to keep the streets clean like Europe when you are home to 1.3 billion people.

Again, if the average person is going to compare countries in terms of how garbage is on the streets (not that Pakistan is any cleaner) than the opinion of that person is irrelevant anyway. A more educated position would be to compare the security situation, the strength of political parties, the economic/industrial growth, the space program etc. India trumps Pakistan on all these fronts by some distance.

Yes there is plenty of poverty which is a direct function of the population boom, but Pakistan is home to these problems as well. However, India is far better placed than Pakistan to tackle these problems.

 

[Mamoon]

So the majority of overseas Pakistanis are uneducated?

A lot of them are uneducated over the core issues of the country. In the context of PTI’s performance, they easily fall for pro-PTI propaganda on social media.

 

[Mamoon]

A lot of them are uneducated over the core issues of the country. In the context of PTI’s performance, they easily fall for pro-PTI propaganda on social media.

And of course the pro-military propaganda.

 

[Captain caveman]

I’m aware of all them.

Please care to elaborate how this relates to what you claim.

Please don’t insult our intelligence with broad, blanket statements. Try to be a little specific.

And round it up with a nice conclusion.

If your conclusion is everyone is guilty, then what is your point? Please be specific, I know it’s difficult.

Then we can truly scrutinise your points. It should be very enlightening as you are also very well versed in history and politics, as a human nature, psychology and sociology.

I don't have time to write you an essay!
Do some reading up and answer your own question, i can't spoon feed you, you are not a child(though your mental age may be).

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Your yardstick for development is shallow. There is more to advancement than how the streets look. Overpopulation is a massive problem for India and it is not easy to keep the streets clean like Europe when you are home to 1.3 billion people.

Again, if the average person is going to compare countries in terms of how garbage is on the streets (not that Pakistan is any cleaner) than the opinion of that person is irrelevant anyway. A more educated position would be to compare the security situation, the strength of political parties, the economic/industrial growth, the space program etc. India trumps Pakistan on all these fronts by some distance.

Yes there is plenty of poverty which is a direct function of the population boom, but Pakistan is home to these problems as well. However, India is far better placed than Pakistan to tackle these problems.

I agree my yardstick is quite shallow, but lifestyle is how I tend to measure places for their desirability to live there. I am impressed that Indian cricket channels broadcast in HD, as do all of their entertainment channels for that matter. They wipe the floor with Pakistani tv on that score. I am not biased, I will give India credit where it is due, and always have done.

The streets are like slums though, their way of living is filthy compared to western cities. Their driving conventions look awful, and law and order looks on a par with Pakistan rather than Denmark.

Is India far better placed to tackle these problems than Pakistan? Possibly, but after voting in a govt of religious fanatics, I think they are going the wrong way. I cannot hand on heart give India my vote of approval when I see such backward mentality flourishing there along with the slum mentality.

 

[Mamoon]

I agree my yardstick is quite shallow, but lifestyle is how I tend to measure places for their desirability to live there. I am impressed that Indian cricket channels broadcast in HD, as do all of their entertainment channels for that matter. They wipe the floor with Pakistani tv on that score. I am not biased, I will give India credit where it is due, and always have done.

The streets are like slums though, their way of living is filthy compared to western cities. Their driving conventions look awful, and law and order looks on a par with Pakistan rather than Denmark.

Is India far better placed to tackle these problems than Pakistan? Possibly, but after voting in a govt of religious fanatics, I think they are going the wrong way. I cannot hand on heart give India my vote of approval when I see such backward mentality flourishing there along with the slum mentality.

The difference between Pakistan and India is that the voters have power in India. In Pakistan, the voting process is a formality because ultimately the military will install whoever they want in power. If the people of India are not happy with Modi, he will be voted out. More importantly, the vast majority of Hindus in India do not subscribe to the RSS ideology. If they feel that Modi is not delivering and is only good for war-mongering, they have the power to vote for Congress.

 

[miandadrules]

I don't have time to write you an essay!
Do some reading up and answer your own question, i can't spoon feed you, you are not a child(though your mental age may be).

I know, I have the mental age of a child.

I guess I must be a savant of sorts, as I’ve wasted many hours reading about history, philosophy and politics. Hence, why I prefer specifics.

But also, once you have a grounding in these fields, it’s easy to pick out a fraud. Don’t you think?

 

[Captain caveman]

I know, I have the mental age of a child.

I guess I must be a savant of sorts, as I’ve wasted many hours reading about history, philosophy and politics. Hence, why I prefer specifics.

But also, once you have a grounding in these fields, it’s easy to pick out a fraud. Don’t you think?

Don't waste your time on others and develop your own understanding.

I can't be a fraud because i have not tried to sell anything to anyone by misleading/deceptive means. All i have done is express an opinion, you can accept or reject it, as you will.

 

[miandadrules]

Don't waste your time on others and develop your own understanding.

I can't be a fraud because i have not tried to sell anything to anyone by misleading/deceptive means. All i have done is express an opinion, you can accept or reject it, as you will.

Opinion or facts?

Because opinions without facts are worthless.

 

[Captain caveman]

Opinion or facts?

Because opinions without facts are worthless.

Opinions based on facts

 

[miandadrules]

Opinions based on facts

That’s great to know, but that’s all I’ve asked for.

Please show us your facts I.e. supporting evidence.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The difference between Pakistan and India is that the voters have power in India. In Pakistan, the voting process is a formality because ultimately the military will install whoever they want in power. If the people of India are not happy with Modi, he will be voted out. More importantly, the vast majority of Hindus in India do not subscribe to the RSS ideology. If they feel that Modi is not delivering and is only good for war-mongering, they have the power to vote for Congress.

How has Modi got two terms in power then if the majority don't subscribe to RSS ideology? He was an RSS icon, and his ministers make ever more radical statements precisely to feed the masses the anti-Muslim rhetoric they want to hear.

But I know you have already gone on record here to praise Modi, so we will just have to differ on this point.

 

[Captain caveman]

That’s great to know, but that’s all I’ve asked for.

Please show us your facts I.e. supporting evidence.

In the uk and usa there are civilian govts but the main two parties are split between rich and poor(labour in uk and democrats in us are fundamentally parties for people who are poor and conservatives in the uk and republicans in us are primary represent rich peoples interests). This is reflected in their tax ideologies
Labour/democrats higher taxes for the wealthy and more money invested in the welfare system.

Conservatives and republicans - cutting taxes for the rich and cutting welfare.

So in this example of 2 countries, the uk and us, you still get discrimination, even though both these countries are civilian governments.
In the indian subcontinent it will be worse because of their obssession with religion.

 

[miandadrules]

In the uk and usa there are civilian govts but the main two parties are split between rich and poor(labour in uk and democrats in us are fundamentally parties for people who are poor and conservatives in the uk and republicans in us are primary represent rich peoples interests). This is reflected in their tax ideologies
Labour/democrats higher taxes for the wealthy and more money invested in the welfare system.

Conservatives and republicans - cutting taxes for the rich and cutting welfare.

So in this example of 2 countries, the uk and us, you still get discrimination, even though both these countries are civilian governments.
In the indian subcontinent it will be worse because of their obssession with religion.

Once again avoiding specifics.

You’ve said your statements are based on facts but you won’t provide evidence. We’re jumping from one broad statement to the next.


Also, your analogy only holds true in the Overton window. In principle none of the parties cater for the poor, and policies overwhelmingly favour the powerful regardless of political affiliation. But this is not relevant to this thread.

Please, provide evidence, so we can decipher between human nature and evil acts as you do.

 

[Captain caveman]

Once again avoiding specifics.

You’ve said your statements are based on facts but you won’t provide evidence. We’re jumping from one broad statement to the next.


Also, your analogy only holds true in the Overton window. In principle none of the parties cater for the poor, and policies overwhelmingly favour the powerful regardless of political affiliation. But this is not relevant to this thread.

Please, provide evidence, so we can decipher between human nature and evil acts as you do.

Like i said before i am not writing an essay for you and nor do i have the time to keep replying to your childish questions.
You can look it up for yourself!
Jeremy corbyn represents the wealthy(lol)! Hes as left wing, socialist as you can get. You are just a pseudo intellectual with a chip on your shoulder, what happened life hasn't been fair with you, and its all because of the evil powers that be? Get a life and be realistic, stop living in some utopian fantasy world!

 

[miandadrules]

Like i said before i am not writing an essay for you and nor do i have the time to keep replying to your childish questions.
You can look it up for yourself!
Jeremy corbyn represents the wealthy(lol)! Hes as left wing, socialist as you can get. You are just a pseudo intellectual with a chip on your shoulder, what happened life hasn't been fair with you, and its all because of the evil powers that be? Get a life and be realistic, stop living in some utopian fantasy world!

So in summation, after all that rhetoric, you couldn’t substantiate a single thing but insist your opinions are facts.

Another ad hominem. I know, I’m a sad pseudo intellectual.

But even as a PI, I’d still be too embarrassed to make a claim without substantiating it.

If you change your mind and decides to provide some supporting evidence I’ll be more than happy to analyse it.

 

[Captain caveman]

So in summation, after all that rhetoric, you couldn’t substantiate a single thing but insist your opinions are facts.

Another ad hominem. I know, I’m a sad pseudo intellectual.

But even as a PI, I’d still be too embarrassed to make a claim without substantiating it.

If you change your mind and decides to provide some supporting evidence I’ll be more than happy to analyse it.

Who are you , a teacher, i said i am not going to write you an essay with references because firstly i dont have the time to waste and secondly you are a nobody to prove anything to.
You cant even state clearly what you disagree with me about, you just post stupid little posts, not even saying what your point is . Then make accussations about what i think, like you are some kind of mind reader sat in pakistan, an oracle who knows everything in the world and what everyone thinks.
Lol your just a simpleton, now stop bothering me with your childish questions!

 

[miandadrules]

Who are you , a teacher, i said i am not going to write you an essay with references because firstly i dont have the time to waste and secondly you are a nobody to prove anything to.
You cant even state clearly what you disagree with me about, you just post stupid little posts, not even saying what your point is . Then make accussations about what i think, like you are some kind of mind reader sat in pakistan, an oracle who knows everything in the world and what everyone thinks.
Lol your just a simpleton, now stop bothering me with your childish questions!

Are you saying that you can’t or won’t provide any supporting evidence for the litany of statements you’ve made.

I know I’m a simpleton. But what do we call someone who can’t even substantiate anything they say?

Readers should always probe individuals who make such statements. It becomes evident very quickly what substance lies beneath.

 

[Captain caveman]

Are you saying that you can’t or won’t provide any supporting evidence for the litany of statements you’ve made.

I know I’m a simpleton. But what do we call someone who can’t even substantiate anything they say?

Readers should always probe individuals who make such statements. It becomes evident very quickly what substance lies beneath.

Again talking in riddles, proof what, substantiate what ?
My statements, which one, specifically, which part?
You just have your knickers in a twist because i said western pakistanis living in bangladesh were also killed by pro - bengladeshi independence militia. That atrocities were committed on both sides. Proof it, my great uncle was killed during thar war, what you want as proof, his death certificate?
Your just a waste of space, just a wind up merchant.

 

[miandadrules]

Again talking in riddles, proof what, substantiate what ?
My statements, which one, specifically, which part?
You just have your knickers in a twist because i said western pakistanis living in bangladesh were also killed by pro - bengladeshi independence militia. That atrocities were committed on both sides. Proof it, my great uncle was killed during thar war, what you want as proof, his death certificate?
Your just a waste of space, just a wind up merchant.

You’re qualified to make a blanket statement based on your great uncles death? Amazing logic.

So, 1971 genocide and rape = human nature. (Yet to provide an substantive proof to actually back this claim, but we’re assured it’s based on facts, we just need to take your word for it. But it may give an incite in to your prejudice (we’ll never know as you seem incapable of backing anything you say up.)

If you think posting a death certificate vindicates your point of you, then maybe it’s not my intelligence we should be questioning.

Babri masjid destruction = evil act.

What is the criteria for this discrepancy?

 

[Captain caveman]

You’re qualified to make a blanket statement based on your great uncles death? Amazing logic.

So, 1971 genocide and rape = human nature. (Yet to provide an substantive proof to actually back this claim, but we’re assured it’s based on facts, we just need to take your word for it. But it may give an incite in to your prejudice (we’ll never know as you seem incapable of backing anything you say up.)

If you think posting a death certificate vindicates your point of you, then maybe it’s not my intelligence we should be questioning.

Babri masjid destruction = evil act.

What is the criteria for this discrepancy?

Ok we are getting somewhere .
You think murder and rape is not common in wars. You are so ignorant!
When the russians invaded austria on the way to annexing east germany, the russian soilders rape nearly every woman and girl they encountered on they way - google it

DR Congo civil war -rape used as a weapon of war - google it!
No i am not going to provide links or references, i am not your lackey, you will only come back with some stupid excuse anyway , wasting my time!
If you are really genuinely interested then you will read about the wars i listed in my earlier reply to you and google the above war crimes. But of course you are not interested, you are a wind up merchant, who has probably got no job, sat in pakistan just passing time by winding people up.

Watch this movie as you got nothing better to do, to get some insight of war & because you are showing incredible ignorance.
'Casualties of war' - starring michael j.fox and sean pen, based on true life story.

Human nature is anything humans do, good or bad. The murders and rapes were not done by aliens, hence the term human nature. You have been getting all hyper because you don't understand a simple english term - you should stick to urdu!

I AM NOT REPLYING TO ANY MORE OF YOUR POSTS !!!

 

[MenInG]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Iqbal's thoughts continue to inspire & guide. <br>"He is a great mystic, with a pure spirit, delivered of materiality and, at the same time, a man who respects and honors science, technological progress, and the advancement of human reason in our age."<a href="https://t.co/QGx0Gyvrp3">https://t.co/QGx0Gyvrp3</a></p>— Imran Khan (@ImranKhanPTI) <a href="https://twitter.com/ImranKhanPTI/status/1325675573935476737?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 9, 2020</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[KB]

Iqbal stressed the individual Muslim conscience, the awesome personal responsibility of individual Muslims, and the need for continuous action and striving in this world.

But first, the context. As Mughal political power declined, Muslim elites in India had witnessed the world change around them. A tradition of poetry - shahr ashob - emerged which expressed melancholy and nostalgia especially in relation to the fate of particular cities. In the eighteenth century, Mir and Sauda, amongst others, wrote of their beloved cities being turned upside down, the moral order being upended.

In the aftermath of the Rebellion of 1857, which was devastating for many north Indian Muslims, Altaf Husayn Hali drew on this tradition of poetry but also extended it. In his famous Musaddas, Hali described past Islamic greatness and lamented its passing. Sayyid Ahmad Khan was moved greatly: ‘I was the case of this book,’ he wrote to Hali in 1879, ‘and I consider that my finest deed. When God asks me what I have done, I will say: nothing, but I had Hali write the Musaddas.’

In a time of anxiety, for many Indian Muslims, Turkey represented the last great vestige of Muslim civilisation, a still living symbol of Islamic greatness. Against the background of the Tripolitan and Balkan wars, Shibli Nomani wrote a poem on the tumult (hungama) of the Balkans. Each couplet of Shibli’s poem ends with “how long” (kab tak). How long will the Ottoman Empire, which he refers to as a guttering candle (Chiragh-e kashta), last? Morocco has gone, Persia has gone; how long will Turkey - the ‘sick man of Europe’ (mariz-e sakht jan) - last? In the final couplet he asks if he wants to migrate, there is still Syria, Najd and Kairouan, but for how long?

Iqbal, too, mourned the present decline and looked back nostalgically. Yet, perhaps more than the Urdu poets the came before him, he sought to invoke the past as an inspiration to remake the present. He lamented decline, certainly, but also tried to provide direction for future renewal.

In all this there was a heavy emphasis on action. For this reason, Iqbal was deeply critical of Persian influenced mysticism for ‘the spirit of Islam…aimed at the conquest of matter’ whereas mysticism too often led to a ‘flight from it’, deadening the zeal for action in this world. Indeed in his Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam, he declares ‘the final act is not an intellectual act, but a vital act which deepens the whole being of the ego and sharpens his will into creative assurance that the world is not just something to be seen and known through concepts, but to be made and remade by continuous action.’

Action and constant striving were central to so many of Iqbal’s poems. In his poem on Khizar-e Rah, in the first two stanzas, the poet described the meeting with Khizar (who of course in Islamic thought is seen as a guide to those who lost their way) and the questions he asks of him. In reply Khizar states: why the astonishment at him roaming in the deserts, for the proof of life lies in the striving for every breath:

kyun tajjub hai meri sahra-nawardi par tujhe
ye taga-pu-e-damadam zindagi ki hai dalil

In another well-known poem, this time on the mosque of Cordoba, he states in one of his lines that revolution and turmoil were the essence of life. It is those who are engaged in constant striving who are truly alive:

jis mein na ho inqilab maut hai wo zindagi

The need to strive meant that individuals had to take personal responsibility. It was no use merely proclaiming one’s faith, if the heart and eye is not that of a Muslim:

khirad ney keh bhi diya La Illaha to kya hasıl
dil-o-nigah Muslim nahin to kuch bhi nahin.

He asked individual Muslims to look inwards and ask their own hearts rather than looking to the mullahs, as to why the sanctuary was emptied of the people of God:

ah Musalman apna dil say puchh mullah say na puchh
ho giya Allah ke bandoon say kiun khali haram

In Iqbal's time, for the ulama, the Muslim community was defined by adherence to ‘correct’ behaviour guided by the shari’a. For the Muslim politician, the Muslim community represented a set of interests to be defended within the parameters of the colonial structure. For Iqbal, though, a Muslim community was defined, as historian David Gilmartin has argued, by the active and personal commitment of Muslims to Islam. In the absence of state power it was, in the final analysis, individual Muslim conscience and action in this world that underwrote the existence of a Muslim community.

 

[ManFan]

I love how 364 days of the year, the Pakistani public behaves exactly inverse of what Iqbal purported this nation to be and then on his birthday, lament his passing away.