Should Naseem Shah play Test cricket?

[hur rizvi]

He may well but he was off color in the aide match , might well play amad butt who has looked much better recently plus he can bat a bit.

I dont think misbah will play Amad so the only option would be Sohail Khan who is not a bad bowler TBH but age has caught up with him.

A wild card option could be Haris rauf but I dont think Misbah would go that route

 

[sshakir411]

Over rated and not even quick, let the kid develop and find his strengths. Pushed too early in the system.

 

[Slog]

Thats not the point right now. He might well have gone Sami route but this alarming drop in pace means something some where went very wrong

This is a myth. Even in his first test he reached 145kph a few times in his first two over and then was operating at similar speeds to what he is right now.

 

[ethan hunt]

This is a myth. Even in his first test he reached 145kph a few times in his first two over and then was operating at similar speeds to what he is right now.

Myth? Do you know what his average speed was in that game ?

 

[Nikhil_cric]

This is a myth. Even in his first test he reached 145kph a few times in his first two over and then was operating at similar speeds to what he is right now.

His average speed was 143.xx and he was averaging higher than Starc I think. He was genuinely rapid in that one test. This test he was around 136 kph and he was even slower in one of the tests in England.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

This is a myth. Even in his first test he reached 145kph a few times in his first two over and then was operating at similar speeds to what he is right now.

Are you okay? There was an entire event where Jofra Archer said “no bowler can hold speeds like that up over multiple spells” and then Naseem showed him up the whole day, leading to criticism of Archer.

There’s clearly an issue with either the management telling him to hold back, or the management modifying his action to the point that he can’t bowl fast even if he wanted to.

 

[Pacy with wisdom]

This is a myth. Even in his first test he reached 145kph a few times in his first two over and then was operating at similar speeds to what he is right now.

You need to invest in a pair of glasses for watching cricket.

 

[hur rizvi]

This is a myth. Even in his first test he reached 145kph a few times in his first two over and then was operating at similar speeds to what he is right now.

I watched his first few matches ball by ball. He was hardly bowling anything under 140

 

[hur rizvi]

His average speed was 143.xx and he was averaging higher than Starc I think. He was genuinely rapid in that one test. This test he was around 136 kph and he was even slower in one of the tests in England.

This and even in SL and Bangladesh tests his average was around this

 

[zacattakk]

Watching him in the last few series suggests he was rushed too soon in to international Test cricket. He simply was not ready. He should have been bowling away in the Quaid e Azam trophy and learning the art of setting up batsmen and taking wickets, before being promoted to the Shaheens and eventually the national team if he was good enough. He does not have good control over line and length at this stage. He can barely properly direct a bouncer. Also his big drop in pace is a concern. All of that has made it very easy for international level batsmen to score off of his bowling.

 

[Usman Chadda]

This is a myth. Even in his first test he reached 145kph a few times in his first two over and then was operating at similar speeds to what he is right now.

Nonsense. His average speed was 143 KPH in his first test, please don't spread your agenda with false facts.

 

[kingusama92]

Watching him in the last few series suggests he was rushed too soon in to international Test cricket. He simply was not ready. He should have been bowling away in the Quaid e Azam trophy and learning the art of setting up batsmen and taking wickets, before being promoted to the Shaheens and eventually the national team if he was good enough. He does not have good control over line and length at this stage. He can barely properly direct a bouncer. Also his big drop in pace is a concern. All of that has made it very easy for international level batsmen to score off of his bowling.

I don't blame them for bringing him in.

Naseem legitimately looked lethal and the average domestic batsman was having trouble handling him.

Now, I don't think anyone expected him to drop 10 KPH off his average bowling speed. That will hurt any bowler let alone a prospect. Whether it has to do with a current injury, coaching, fear of a long-term issue, this version of Naseem will likely have to go back to domestic cricket.

It's that or he needs to get his pace back ASAP.

 

[Rana]

I don't blame them for bringing him in.

Naseem legitimately looked lethal and the average domestic batsman was having trouble handling him.

Now, I don't think anyone expected him to drop 10 KPH off his average bowling speed. That will hurt any bowler let alone a prospect. Whether it has to do with a current injury, coaching, fear of a long-term issue, this version of Naseem will likely have to go back to domestic cricket.

It's that or he needs to get his pace back ASAP.

He must have been told to tone down

I remember in 2005, Mohammad Sami bowled at 130-135 as well in the England series for about 2/3 Tests. It simply didn’t work for him because although his focus was line and length, it just wasn’t lethal at his pace.

He then just gave up in the final session of the 3rd Test and went full on back to 145+.

He still got spanked if I remember clearly.

 

[kingusama92]

He must have been told to tone down

I remember in 2005, Mohammad Sami bowled at 130-135 as well in the England series for about 2/3 Tests. It simply didn’t work for him because although his focus was line and length, it just wasn’t lethal at his pace.

He then just gave up in the final session of the 3rd Test and went full on back to 145+.

He still got spanked if I remember clearly.

You're likely right.

A coach might think it's wise advice, but it's usually not with someone that young. He's barely used to bowling all-out pace (physically and mentally) so any change is going to throw his rhythm off.

Instead of doing that, I would bowl him in small bursts to reduce pressure on his muscles/joints or one long spell with a proper warm-up and cool-down period. You could also make subtle tweaks to his bowling technique that cut down on the "twisting" he was doing before releasing the ball. Perhaps, work on strengthening the supporting muscles around his weak points to prevent injury? There are so many ways of going about this.

But just telling the guy to go out and bowl at 80% effort is a recipe for disaster. It goes against everything a bowler wants to do when running in.

To be honest, this type of change has rarely worked.

I think the only one I remember cutting down his pace successfully was Mohammad Asif. But that guy was a bowling genius and had one of the highest bowling IQs in the game.

 

[Grunge101]

Well something has most definitely happened to his speed. From being 143 kmph on average in Australia and then the same in England in the first test, its like someone just busted his wheels in NZ. Too big of a diff to just out down to fatigue or lack of rhythm.The lady commentator mentioned it on day 1. Something along the lines of "he doesnt look like the guy thats been considered as the fastest around along with Starc and Nortje".
So its either
a) hes carrying an injury OR
b) hes been told to cut down and become a Abbas replica.

 

[Arsal_AK]

Yes. We need to stop this nonsense of dropping people after a couple of bad games.

Who is going to replace him? He is amongst the best in the country.

The QeA trophy has the top 30 or so cricketers missing. Put Naseem there and he will blow the competition away. Actually he did blow it away when he was picked (way too soon) for Aus and he did it against full strength teams.

If he is injured, replace him sure, but baring that he gets the games. This and the SA series, so that we have a few matches on the trot to actually base a decision on. This is his comeback match from injury and he hasn't played very little cricket this year.

He will come good. We need to be patient and actually allow players time to develop. He was always going to be like this initially, we all knew that but he has shown how good he can be. All one needs to do is watch him bowl to see why he is worth presisting with.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

Yes. We need to stop this nonsense of dropping people after a couple of bad games.

Who is going to replace him? He is amongst the best in the country.

The QeA trophy has the top 30 or so cricketers missing. Put Naseem there and he will blow the competition away. Actually he did blow it away when he was picked (way too soon) for Aus and he did it against full strength teams.

If he is injured, replace him sure, but baring that he gets the games. This and the SA series, so that we have a few matches on the trot to actually base a decision on. This is his comeback match from injury and he hasn't played very little cricket this year.

He will come good. We need to be patient and actually allow players time to develop. He was always going to be like this initially, we all knew that but he has shown how good he can be. All one needs to do is watch him bowl to see why he is worth presisting with.

This. He’s clearly unfit right now. Only comparable fast bowler in domestics is Hassan Ali.

 

[Mamoon]

So this is how it is going to go and this is basically how it goes for every one season wonder in Pakistan.

First they get overhyped because deluded fans overestimate their potential, they do well against a weak side and the same fans start disturbing mithai,

then they get exposed against top teams and it is said that they are inexperienced, then they get injured and it is said that we should be patient, they are young, inexperienced and we should give them time,

then they continue to underperform and the coach, captain, selector and anyone else in firing line is blamed,

Then the final step is for the same fans to acknowledge and accept that they weren’t good to begin with, and then they quietly move on to another overhyped talent and the cycle continues.

 

[Slog]

Nonsense. His average speed was 143 KPH in his first test, please don't spread your agenda with false facts.

What’s the agenda? Show Naseem to be a mediocre club level bowler? Sorry but he’s doing a much better job of that then I can ever dream of.

He is not ready for international cricket and according to Saj himself he is an age fudger

 

[Arsal_AK]

What’s the agenda? Show Naseem to be a mediocre club level bowler? Sorry but he’s doing a much better job of that then I can ever dream of.

He is not ready for international cricket and according to Saj himself he is an age fudger

Again with the age. He is not unique, most in the team aren't the age that their documents state.

And it is not his fault, his parents are the fudgers.

 

[shamaan]

Should be given the next test azwell lets see how he does

 

[thecrusade911]

Should be given the next test azwell lets see how he does

2nd test??? 2nd Innings should be his last inning for Pakistan for quite some time.

 

[Slog]

Again with the age. He is not unique, most in the team aren't the age that their documents state.

And it is not his fault, his parents are the fudgers.

Cute how you side stepped the part about his club level bowling.

Anyways age fudging IS an issue here. He was solely picked because he was seen as a 16 year old fast bowler with a great ceiling and potential to grow. He was not picked because he was a close to final product. If he was exhibiting a similar level of skill as a 20 year old then he would not be hailed as a great talent ready to take the world and most likely wouldn’t have gotten a look in.

 

[shamaan]

2nd test??? 2nd Innings should be his last inning for Pakistan for quite some time.

Disagree he should be given the second test azwell

 

[Usman Chadda]

What’s the agenda? Show Naseem to be a mediocre club level bowler? Sorry but he’s doing a much better job of that then I can ever dream of.

He is not ready for international cricket and according to Saj himself he is an age fudger

What does any of what you wrote have anything to do with you giving incorrect information about his pace? His average speed has been 143 KPH in all his previous tests, what's alarming is a drop off of 10-15 KPH, which is just staggering.

 

[Mobashir]

This is a myth. Even in his first test he reached 145kph a few times in his first two over and then was operating at similar speeds to what he is right now.

What is the purpose of you lying about his speed?
He was geniunly quick in that match.

 

[Mobashir]

Much better bowling from him today in the first 5 overs.
Not pacy, just around 137 kph but good lines.

 

[RickyG]

Whatever I have seen of Naseem Shah makes me wonder if he will ever really be a good test cricketer. He doesn't have any natural movement. Doesn't seem to have any skills with the ball. His pace is largely exaggerated.

He needs to make leaps and bounds of improvement before he should be considered again. It makes me wonder if we're putting our resources behind the wrong man.

I would rather see Mohammad Hasnain get an opportunity to develop into a test cricketer. He has a natural outswinger. His ball skids and bounces more. And he's much quicker than Naseem. Genuinely able to hit 150kh.

He's being wasted at T20 level. What he should be doing his hitting good channels with his natural away moving delivery consistently and developing a delivery that comes into the batsman. But unfortunately, this is Pakistan cricket where we enjoy overhyping mediocrity and ignoring talent.

 

[ataullah]

Much better bowling from him today in the first 5 overs.
Not pacy, just around 137 kph but good lines.

Around 140 kph....most deliveries...very accurate...must be persisted with

 

[Araash]

Speed alone doesn't do much wonders especially at international level. Shoib Akhtar would get phenty all around the ground at the hands of experience batsmen even at 150kph.

The kid hasn't developed much strategic understanding of the art of pace bowling, doesn't have much variation and struggles to control the length. This was typical Pakistan - any bowler who shows signs of even a bit of pace or aggression suddenly gets thrust into limelight as the second incarnation of 2Ws.

 

[Slog]

What does any of what you wrote have anything to do with you giving incorrect information about his pace? His average speed has been 143 KPH in all his previous tests, what's alarming is a drop off of 10-15 KPH, which is just staggering.

all his previous tests? More like his first ever test innings.

 

[choudhary6964]

Naseem was fastest pacer in asia in terms of average before this test.it was around 141ks but now It seems he is not bowling at full throttle.He can be persisted with he will get better from here.

 

[MenInG]

3/55 today for Naseem so some improvement but surely can do better.

 

[Savak]

The lad should be sent back to domestic cricket and be told very clearly what is expected from him in order to make a comeback to the team

 

[hur rizvi]

3/55 today for Naseem so some improvement but surely can do better.

No improvement in pace and gifted wickets. Naseem shah bowling at 135 kph is useless for PAkistan

 

[Saj]

3 cheap wickets if the truth be told.

None which were down to good bowling really.

 

[Amjid Javed]

Feel sorry for Naseem as hes a young lad with no real experienced bowler to learn off and help bring him along. He needs more exposure at domestic level and probably needs some exposure in county cricket in england if he can to help him develop as a bowler.

 

[Ahson8]

Second innings specialist ?

 

[Rana]

Feel very sorry for him. He can’t win.

Shaheen Shah was far inferior to Shaheen in the second innings, but I guess Naseem is public enemy no.1 so it doesn’t matter.

 

[Xoib]

Still hold my ground there is a potentially great bowler in him. However I am not sure the current managment is able to get the best out of him.

For his own good I hope he is dropped for 2nd test and goes away play couple of seasons of FC cricket build his pace back and work on the art of setting up batsman.

He has the rare skill of bowling deliveries which can get great batsmen out but really needs to refine quite a bit before he becomes a great bowler himself

 

[Firebat]

Was picked far too soon. Cannot at this age compete vs the likes of Williamson and Taylor. Back to FC for a few seasons now.

 

[Rana]

Was picked far too soon. Cannot at this age compete vs the likes of Williamson and Taylor. Back to FC for a few seasons now.

Why should he be dropped and Shaheen persisted with?

 

[Nikhil_cric]

This is why stats should be seen in context. Shaheen took 2 wickets upfront and threw the game open and desperately needed better support than a 125 kph trundler at the other end and ended up bowling 36 overs while Naseem bowled 25 overs and got a wicket which wasn't even a wicket had Nichols reviewed. Naseem then picks 3 inconsequential wickets when NZ were accelerating and somehow their performances were on par? Laughable.


Naseem - 4/151
Shaheen - 4/156

 

[Rana]

This is why stats should be seen in context. Shaheen took 2 wickets upfront and threw the game open and desperately needed better support than a 125 kph trundler at the other end and ended up bowling 36 overs while Naseem bowled 25 overs and got a wicket which wasn't even a wicket had Nichols reviewed. Naseem then picks 3 inconsequential wickets when NZ were accelerating and somehow their performances were on par? Laughable.


Naseem - 4/151
Shaheen - 4/156

Did you even watch the game last night or follow it on cricinfo?

Naseem was our best bowler in the 2nd innings. There is no denying this whatsoever. Anyone who watched the innings will testify, the second best bowlers were Faheem and Abbas. Naseem deserved all 3 of those wickets and possibly a 4th because he was bowling to a plan, and he executed the plan will with the wickets of Kane, Latham and Nichols. He would have taken 4 or 5 wickets if New Zealand wanted to bat a bit longer with that short ball plan in play and the 3/4 leg side boundary riders.

 

[Slog]

Cheap wickets

 

[Bewal Express]

Naseem has no idea how he will take wickets, this means he has no plan and thats the crux of the problem. His seam isnt good enough to swing or seam the ball, this means full balls become easy half volleys, he isnt tall enough to bowl back of a length. For him the plan should be get his pace consistently to 86-87, work on the seam with someone who knows what they are doing, its plainly obvious that Waqar has had no impact on him.

 

[Slog]

Did you even watch the game last night or follow it on cricinfo?

Naseem was our best bowler in the 2nd innings. There is no denying this whatsoever. Anyone who watched the innings will testify, the second best bowlers were Faheem and Abbas. Naseem deserved all 3 of those wickets and possibly a 4th because he was bowling to a plan, and he executed the plan will with the wickets of Kane, Latham and Nichols. He would have taken 4 or 5 wickets if New Zealand wanted to bat a bit longer with that short ball plan in play and the 3/4 leg side boundary riders.

He may have been best bowler but that’s doesn’t mean much. His wickets were cheap wickets in a chase for quick runs and in a normal innings he would again been huffing g and puffing in a wicket less spell.

 

[Rana]

He may have been best bowler but that’s doesn’t mean much. His wickets were cheap wickets in a chase for quick runs and in a normal innings he would again been huffing g and puffing in a wicket less spell.

Ok so the jury is clearly out on him.

Who do you suggest should now walk into the Pakistan team in place of him? Also Abbas and possibly Shaheen?

 

[MenInG]

Cheap wickets

No such thing in International cricket.

 

[Xoib]

Naseem has no idea how he will take wickets, this means he has no plan and thats the crux of the problem. His seam isnt good enough to swing or seam the ball, this means full balls become easy half volleys, he isnt tall enough to bowl back of a length. For him the plan should be get his pace consistently to 86-87, work on the seam with someone who knows what they are doing, its plainly obvious that Waqar has had no impact on him.

His shortened run up has totally derailed his bowling flow was bowling beautiful away inswingers and sharp induckers with his old action and run up either he needs to go back to old action or get back to fc cricket and learn to bowl with the new action

Not sure whose bright idea was to make him change his action while playing first year of test cricket.

 

[Rana]

No such thing in International cricket.

Exactly man. It’s not like he was bowling under arm full tosses to Kane Williamson who was giving catching practice to our boundary fielders.

Those claiming these to be cheap wickets need to watch the entire 3rd innings again. If they still can’t fathom that he deserved those wickets due to a proper plan then I guess they just don’t like the guy

 

[JibranAnsari]

4 wickets in the match , he can play the next match.

 

[Buffet]

He does not have any idea about how to set up batsmen. 4-5 years in first-class teach you that skill. I am not sure how much first-class cricket he played before debuting.

 

[Rana]

He does not have any idea about how to set up batsmen. 4-5 years in first-class teach you that skill. I am not sure how much first-class cricket he played before debuting.

https://youtu.be/En5gqZm0eFE

He took 3 wickets bowling to a plan. What else do you want him to do? What did Master planner Abbas do?

 

[Bewal Express]

His shortened run up has totally derailed his bowling flow was bowling beautiful away inswingers and sharp induckers with his old action and run up either he needs to go back to old action or get back to fc cricket and learn to bowl with the new action

Not sure whose bright idea was to make him change his action while playing first year of test cricket.

Maybe his? Cant blame others everytime it goes wrong.

 

[ethan hunt]

Changing a bowling action for fear of injury is such a risk reward strategy.
India are lucky no one changed Bumrahs action when he was young.
Just let the natural unique skill be.
This misplaced expertise from the coaches is so annoying.

 

[Arsal_AK]

Now the wickets are cheap. Of course.

The Nicholls catch going down in the first innings was a cheap chance as well. On a good day, he could have match figures of 6/140 odd. And by a good I mean people hanging onto simple catches.

Anyway it's clear that he was indeed the best bolwer in the second innings. Bolwed the best lines, bowled well to a plan and created more chances. His first spell read 5 overs for 4 runs or something like that, this is when NZ were supposedly going for runs, not a bad effort.

People are expecting way too much. Others could have gotten the cheap wickets as well, they didn't. No one is saying NZ weren't looking for quick runs, but that doesn't mean his wickets don't count.

Apart from those 3-4 overs in his first spell, he hasn't been bad.

 

[Buffet]

https://youtu.be/En5gqZm0eFE

He took 3 wickets bowling to a plan. What else do you want him to do? What did Master planner Abbas do?

3 wickets here and 2 wickets there is not a basis to form an opinion.

Anyone bowling with a plan to build pressure won't go for 4 runs per over most of the time. You can't build any pressure that way.

 

[Rana]

3 wickets here and 2 wickets there is not a basis to form an opinion.

Anyone bowling with a plan to build pressure won't go for 4 runs per over most of the time. You can't build any pressure that way.

Wah jee wah

Please be honest with me and tell me you watched the entire 3rd innings of the game from the first ball until the NZ declaration like I did? Please be honest sir

 

[Buffet]

https://youtu.be/En5gqZm0eFE

He took 3 wickets bowling to a plan. What else do you want him to do? What did Master planner Abbas do?

Setting them up when they are not trying to take risks. When batsmen are trying to get quick runs, sure you still need to bowl well to take wickets. No one should discount it, but I was mostly talking about how you go about setting up batsmen who are not trying to take risks. You basically create chances and get wickets. Naseem looks clueless in that regard and I suspect it's due to not having first class experience. Just 2-3 years teaches you a lot. You can't really set up batsmen when you leak runs.

 

[Buffet]

Wah jee wah

Please be honest with me and tell me you watched the entire 3rd innings of the game from the first ball until the NZ declaration like I did? Please be honest sir

Do you think it was setting up batsmen? I am not sure what I can tell you here. He bowled well to take those wickets. I am talking about different aspect.

 

[Rana]

Do you think it was setting up batsmen? I am not sure what I can tell you here. He bowled well to take those wickets. I am talking about different aspect.

His job was to bowl fast, short, body-line with a fine leg, deep square leg, deep mid wicket. Also 2 more fielders in the mid wicket to leg side region (Rizwan set up a very good field for him).

He bowled 95% of his deliveries according to the field he was set against top order NZ batsmen who were going to go after him.

So you didnt answer my question, you didn’t watch every ball in that innings did you brother?

 

[Buffet]

His job was to bowl fast, short, body-line with a fine leg, deep square leg, deep mid wicket. Also 2 more fielders in the mid wicket to leg side region (Rizwan set up a very good field for him).

He bowled 95% of his deliveries according to the field he was set against top order NZ batsmen who were going to go after him.

So you didnt answer my question, you didn’t watch every ball in that innings did you brother?

You are explaining how he got wickets by bowling short balls when NZ batsmen were going after him. Good job. I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about setting up batsmen. Setting up batsmen has a different meaning. Setting up means, you force a mistake by having a plan even if they're not looking to take the risk. I am not sure if you don't understand that concept or simply trolling here.

 

[Buffet]

Now the poster will ask, did you watch how he took 3 wickets in 2nd inning?

 

[Kingpin786]

You are explaining how he got wickets by bowling short balls when NZ batsmen were going after him. Good job. I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about setting up batsmen. Setting up batsmen has a different meaning. Setting up means, you force a mistake by having a plan even if they're not looking to take the risk. I am not sure if you don't understand that concept or simply trolling here.

Nailed it

 

[Mobashir]

Exactly man. It’s not like he was bowling under arm full tosses to Kane Williamson who was giving catching practice to our boundary fielders.

Those claiming these to be cheap wickets need to watch the entire 3rd innings again. If they still can’t fathom that he deserved those wickets due to a proper plan then I guess they just don’t like the guy

His first 5 over spell was quite good in the conditions.

 

[Rana]

You are explaining how he got wickets by bowling short balls when NZ batsmen were going after him. Good job. I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about setting up batsmen. Setting up batsmen has a different meaning. Setting up means, you force a mistake by having a plan even if they're not looking to take the risk. I am not sure if you don't understand that concept or simply trolling here.

I understand exactly what you mean but I don’t see how that is currently appropriate in a situation where his job was to control the damage as much as possible.

He bowls well admits everyone

“But he needs to go back to domestics to learn how to set up batsmen”. Like what kind of batsmen? Domestic legends like Abid Ali?

I counter your argument by asking you how successful has Abbas been in this Test? Abbas is apparently the Baazigar of this Bowling attack, how exactly has he set up and trapped NZ batsmen in this entire match where Naseem is being judged to be a write off? What else do you want Naseem to do whilst he just ran into the greatest ever Kiwi middle order batsmen on their home deck in the 1st innings if that’s what you are referring to?

 

[Rana]

Some guys believe kids are taught how to set up legendary batsmen like Kane Williamson in Pakistan domestics, hence Naseem needs to go back to the domestics for 2 seasons and learn this art from there

 

[Rana]

Now the poster will ask, did you watch how he took 3 wickets in 2nd inning?

You didn’t even watch the innings brother. You were busy watching the India game which is fine. Please re-visit the entire 3rd innings and then debate with me.

 

[Slog]

No such thing in International cricket.

Yes there is. If you want to learn what they are then I suggest you watch his wickets in New Zealand second innings

 

[Slog]

You didn’t even watch the innings brother. You were busy watching the India game which is fine. Please re-visit the entire 3rd innings and then debate with me.

New Zealand were going for quick runs and he bowled a good line and stuck to a plan to get those wickets. However that doesn’t show any real wicket taking skill. Most bowlers with some pace and who bowled as per plan could have claimed those wickets.

If it was first innings where New Zealand weren’t aggressive he would again have ended up with horrible figures. And that is what happens in most test innings. Naseem has not shown ability to set batsmen up and work them out to get wickets. He cannot induce mistakes so far. The batsman has to be the one making mistakes for him to take wickets and that does not cut it to get quality Test batsmen out. Sure that would work when they are playing risky, attacking cricket like today but that is not the case often in a test game and almost never in the crucial first innings. And this is why he is such a mediocre fast bowler at the test level. That may work in limited overs though.

If people are using this second innings as a justification for Naseem being in the side then I really doubt their understanding of test cricket.

 

[Rana]

New Zealand were going for quick runs and he bowled a good line and stuck to a plan to get those wickets. However that doesn’t show any real wicket taking skill. Most bowlers with some pace and who bowled as per plan could have claimed those wickets.

If it was first innings where New Zealand weren’t aggressive he would again have ended up with horrible figures. And that is what happens in most test innings. Naseem has not shown ability to set batsmen up and work them out to get wickets. He cannot induce mistakes so far. The batsman has to be the one making mistakes for him to take wickets and that does not cut it to get quality Test batsmen out. Sure that would work when they are playing risky, attacking cricket like today but that is not the case often in a test game and almost never in the crucial first innings. And this is why he is such a mediocre fast bowler at the test level. That may work in limited overs though.

If people are using this second innings as a justification for Naseem being in the side then I really doubt their understanding of test cricket.

Ok so then tell me the alternative? And how do Abbas or Shaheen survive whilst Naseem does not?

 

[Slog]

No such thing in International cricket.

3 cheap wickets if the truth be told.

None which were down to good bowling really.

Could be a blockbuster discussion for this forum haha.

 

[Rana]

His first 5 over spell was quite good in the conditions.

They won’t mention that brother. They followed the score on cricinfo whilst watching the India game instead

 

[sharmaji]

He is good. Needs to be persisted with. You guys are too impatient with youngsters. You need a team that has experienced players, however not-to-your-expectations they maybe. I see Pak test team today, and apart from Azhar Ali and Abbas, there aren't many players with experience of playing (and winning) in difficult situations; so who do young players look up to for guidance?

Let Naseem gain experience in the international arena, he will be surrounded by national coaches and coaching staff, learning from international bowlers, bowling to high quality international batsmen and getting used to the pressure at the highest level. This is something he can't gain in domestic cricket.

On another note, I feel that Pak is trying to replicate the Wasim-Waqar combo with Shaheen-Naseem; there is nothing wrong in that, every cricket playing nation does that; India wants Pujara to be the next Dravid, Kohli to be the next Sachin, Vihari to be the next Laxman etc

 

[Yk313]

Some guys believe kids are taught how to set up legendary batsmen like Kane Williamson in Pakistan domestics, hence Naseem needs to go back to the domestics for 2 seasons and learn this art from there

Not at all. Posted this on another thread too.

Getting KW out in seaming/swinging conditions, let alone flat pitches, is pretty difficult. How many times did Mohammad Amir get KW on those green tops in 2016?

 

[Buffet]

I understand exactly what you mean but I don’t see how that is currently appropriate in a situation where his job was to control the damage as much as possible.

He bowls well admits everyone

“But he needs to go back to domestics to learn how to set up batsmen”. Like what kind of batsmen? Domestic legends like Abid Ali?

He did his job of controlling damage. I never said he did not do that job.

I don't really follow Pakistan's domestics, but as a player, you learn a lot by playing first-class cricket. You learn to build inning as a batsman and you learn to set up batsmen as a bowler. Playing a few years of first-class is an advantage for pretty much anyone. Very few players can do well if they have not gotten opportunities to learn how to build inning or how to set up batsmen.

I will elaborate a bit to make my point. If you don't play in domestic then batsmen don't get used to building up long innings. It does not even have to be playing against great bowlers/batsmen. It simply the mindset of building long innings. They never learn that mindset. They put 50-60 runs and start thinking that the job is done. Similarly, you are not going to learn how to set up batsmen and produce errors if you have not gotten that chance.

If you notice, many posters are saying that he should play domestic. They are not saying that Naseem is a bowler with no potential. Simply said, he can gain by playing in first class. Preparing for international shouldn't start by playing in international. You do it in domestic. Sure, you keep learning always and that's why you see many gun players trying to learn by playing domestic to get over some issue.

He should play first-class should not be seen as passing judgment against him. It should be seen as him having potential and him having an opportunity to learn and then apply those skills in international. Sure, he can keep learning in international, but it's a hard way to learn and comes with a cost.

 

[Slog]

Ok so then tell me the alternative? And how do Abbas or Shaheen survive whilst Naseem does not?

Shaheen has bowled well. He may have ended up with similar figures to Naseem but if you really watched the match then it is clear Shaheen was much superior over course of game. Especially in the first innings when he took quick wickets to potentially set up the game before other bowlers especially Naseem blew it.

Abbas clearly hasn’t been the same in recent times. His speed (which was already slow to begin with) has gone down further which mean that he is very easy to negotiate for any decent batsman. But he has still been very disciplined and hasn’t leaked runs. So not total liability. If he had bowled like Naseem in first innings at 3.5-4 an over then this game would have been wrapped up by now. So you have to commend his control.

From the pacers Naseem has clearly been the most mediocre. His age may be an excuse but international test cricket isn’t an apprenticeship model and I atleast won’t let anyone escape criticism and scrutiny just because they are a teenager. Either you are good enough or you aren’t. Naseem’s problem is that he has leaked a lot of runs and not created chances either. In the first innings if he had been disciplined then that might have induced mistakes from the New Zealand batsmen since they weren’t getting scoring opportunities. But Naseem released all the pressure built by Abbas’s discipline and Shaheen’s chance creation.

So I think it is clear that from the pace attack, Naseem has been the most lacking. 2 of his 3 wickets in second innings are clearly shots played while looking for quick runs.

As to who to replace him? That is the job of the selectors. We have Sohail Khan, Mir Hamza and a few others who would’ve given at the very least similar performances.

Btw these experiences are probably destroying Naseem’s own confidence and prospects of a top career.

 

[Buffet]

You didn’t even watch the innings brother. You were busy watching the India game which is fine. Please re-visit the entire 3rd innings and then debate with me.

I have watched lots of his bowling to say that he does not have the skill to set up batsmen. If you think watching 2nd inning of NZ will make me come to a different conclusion then you will be disappointed. 2nd inning was not even about setting up batsmen.

 

[hitthestump]

He is good. Needs to be persisted with. You guys are too impatient with youngsters. You need a team that has experienced players, however not-to-your-expectations they maybe. I see Pak test team today, and apart from Azhar Ali and Abbas, there aren't many players with experience of playing (and winning) in difficult situations; so who do young players look up to for guidance?

This would be fine, but his inclusion is a net negative for Pakistan right now and this is not possible in the test arena. Ultimately he isn't producing enough with the ball and his selection makes the tail extremely long.

If Shaheen and Abbas were taking wickets and could chip in with the bat it'd be a different story, but they aren't so Naseem has got to make way for someone who can unfortunately.