Should Shaheen Shah Afridi be given a run in Tests for the South Africa tour?

[Junaids]

The thing at altitude in South Africa is that very tall bowlers can lift the ball alarmingly from a full length.

Pakistan needs to select whoever the quickest guy taller than 6’4 is.

Pick Hamza in favourable conditions. But for Abbas, Amir and Faheem to be effective in South African High Altitude conditions, Pakistan needs a tall aggressive guy at the other age.

And frankly, if it’s not Shaheen Shah Afridi, I’m picking Ehsan Adil.

Horses for courses.

 

[Junaids]

Kallis against Johnson....



Smith against Johnson in South Africa....



These were great players who even in home conditions couldn’t play certain deliveries from a tall fast lefty.

That’s a big weapon in South Africa.

 

[Attiq_Lone]

He will end up like shadab and hasan and what we did with usman shinwari after just one performance in domestic cricket.

He is just 18 and putting this much load on him might end up getting the guy injured, and this might hurt Pakistan for the long term. Let him play t20i’s, occasionally play him in the ODI XI, and let him bowl in the domestic for 2 3 full seasons.

after 2-3 years he will be a much better bowler, much better handling the pressure of test match cricket, and he will also know how to bowl in certain conditions and situations.

Currently, it will be pre-mature and it will hurt only Pakistan cricket team. Instead, select him in the A team, let him play the A tours + domestic. This will pay off.

The thing you are saying, is for a short term vision: “Our fast bowling department is weak, so just put a new 18 years old in and let’s see what happens”. We need a long term vision, and that will be everything I wrote above.

 

[Muhammad Saad]

No harm in trying him for 1 test. Specially if we have Bilal and yasir as spin duo, the 3 pacers can be Hasan, abbas and shaheen

 

[Junaids]

It’s insane to say “let him develop, let him take First Class wickets first”.

The two places his skill set is needed in the next five years are South Africa next month and Australia in two years.

And literally that’s it.

We saw the appalling mistake of taking Imran Khan and Sohail Khan to Australia two years ago when they were the wrong types of quick for the conditions.

Pakistan needs one tall fast bowler (in a four man pace attack) to win the series in South Africa next month.

 

[Hasan123]

He should play in South Africa. What will he learn from domestics when the games don't last long enough and won't allow him to develop his bowling muscles?

He should play all 3 games in South Africa and be a regular in T20s. He needs to play more first class cricket. I wish he could get a county deal.

 

[Kohli The King of Chase]

07.Sarfraz
08.Faheem / Hassan
09.Amir / Hamza
10.Abbas
11.Shaheen

Haris and Asad can roll their arm for spin, if needed.

 

[yasir]

No harm in trying him for 1 test. Specially if we have Bilal and yasir as spin duo, the 3 pacers can be Hasan, abbas and shaheen

Why you will play two spinners in SA? - Secondly, you want both Shadab and Fahim instead of these two, since they have potential to add extra 100 runs. Both are miles better batsmen then the other two...UAE and SA are two different world

Afridi is no-brainer for SA tour. Abbas, Amir and Afridi would be my starting speedsters, with Faheem and Shadab other two...Batting lineup does not need much change, drop Hafeez(no way you can take Hafeez to SA) for Inam, there is your 11...

 

[BunnyRabbit]

He definitely has the skillset, needs channeling that into consistency. He is too raw for Tests atm, Yes. But I would release him from NZ squad to have him play some FC matches and then have him for SA Tests. At the moment, the goal should be to win SA Test series. And to win in South Africa, you need guys who can generate good bounce. I would take a gamble and play Shaheen along with Abbas and Junaid/3rd seamer. and Fahim. There could also be a case to select Mohammad Irfan for SA tests only if his fitness allows him to last 5 days. The advantage tall bowlers can get in SA and Aus can be huge.

 

[Junaids]

He definitely has the skillset, needs channeling that into consistency. He is too raw for Tests atm, Yes. But I would release him from NZ squad to have him play some FC matches and then have him for SA Tests. At the moment, the goal should be to win SA Test series. And to win in South Africa, you need guys who can generate good bounce. I would take a gamble and play Shaheen along with Abbas and Junaid/3rd seamer. and Fahim. There could also be a case to select Mohammad Irfan for SA tests only if his fitness allows him to last 5 days. The advantage tall bowlers can get in SA and Aus can be huge.

Good post.

I’m leaning towards taking six specialist quicks to South Africa plus Faheem Ashraf.

I’d open with Abbas (who would bat at 11) and Amir (9).

First change is Shaheen Shah Afridi (10).

Second change is Faheem Ashraf (8).

Sole spinner is Shadab Khan (7).

Spare quicks are:

Ehsan Adil (for his Under-19 brilliance in South Africa).
Hasan Ali
Junaid Khan

 

[New Yorker]

It’s insane to say “let him develop, let him take First Class wickets first”.

The two places his skill set is needed in the next five years are South Africa next month and Australia in two years.

And literally that’s it.

We saw the appalling mistake of taking Imran Khan and Sohail Khan to Australia two years ago when they were the wrong types of quick for the conditions.

Pakistan needs one tall fast bowler (in a four man pace attack) to win the series in South Africa next month.

Did Imran and Sohail do so poorly in Aus because they were wrong type, because they did not have the right skill set, or because they simply were not good enough? Is Abbas really the right type of bowler, for Aus, or for the UAE for that matter? Do you learn nothing from being wrong? What type of bowler do you think Philander is, that he is the most consistently dangerous bowler in SAF? You have convinced yourself that pace and height will triumph in SAF, any pace and height, and in order to get that in place you are throwing systematic selection police out the window. Hamza who has been at least as good as Abbas in domestics recently is to be dropped, and an 18 year old who has played just two FC matches brought in? With either Amir or Junaid, who have already had their chances in international, and are known quantities, being preferred over Hamza. Reasoning like this is why Abbas debuted two years too late.

 

[Junaids]

[MENTION=139754]New Yorker[/MENTION]
Vernon Philander has always taken wickets in South Africa bowling into the wind while operating with an express bowler - Steyn was 145+ as is Rabada - and the very tall Morne Morkel.

That variety tests each batsman against different challenges.

But if Pakistan fields a bowling line-up of short medium pacers that is greatly to the batsman’s advantage.

 

[New Yorker]

[MENTION=139754]New Yorker[/MENTION]
Vernon Philander has always taken wickets in South Africa bowling into the wind while operating with an express bowler - Steyn was 145+ as is Rabada - and the very tall Morne Morkel.

That variety tests each batsman against different challenges.

But if Pakistan fields a bowling line-up of short medium pacers that is greatly to the batsman’s advantage.

I think if you are honest with yourself you would be able to feel how that logic is just a bit too circumstantial. On par with the notion that Yasir and Sohail Khan did well on the England tour because of Wahab. Or that Wahab could be our Johnson, because, you know, they are the same kind of bowler. his is why pictures of Mitch Johnson making Kallis hop are misleading.

In general, you can always develop some argument for why certain combinations of bowling are synergistic, but ultimately if choosing between two bowlers you should pick the one who takes the most wickets. I am not convinced that the right type of bowler is the best bowler. What I am certain of is that if If Pakistan fields a bowling line up of bad bowlers, however tall they may be, then that will definitely count to the batsman's advantage.

And I am certain that if Pakistan continues to ignore domestic performers when they are at their peak, such as Hamza, then we fail continue to regress in the development of our pace bowling attack. This is about more than Shaheen or no Shaheen. A very myopic thread.

 

[Mute Witness]

If Pakistan go with Shadab/Yasir, Hassan, Abbas and Faheem, and maybe say Aizaz Cheema(he's having a sensational season! ), this may be the first all right hand bowling attack we'll field in a decade! We have to go before Amir's debut to when shoaib, asif and gul played to find an all right pace attack. This is probably unlikely but nevertheless interesting

 

[New Yorker]

He definitely has the skillset, needs channeling that into consistency. He is too raw for Tests atm, Yes. But I would release him from NZ squad to have him play some FC matches and then have him for SA Tests. At the moment, the goal should be to win SA Test series. And to win in South Africa, you need guys who can generate good bounce. I would take a gamble and play Shaheen along with Abbas and Junaid/3rd seamer. and Fahim. There could also be a case to select Mohammad Irfan for SA tests only if his fitness allows him to last 5 days. The advantage tall bowlers can get in SA and Aus can be huge.

Irfan is actually a wonderful test case for the argument that in South African, height is always king, and that one should select bowlers on type, not performance. If you recall, he played his first and last Tests in South Africa, taking 10 wickets in 4 Tests at an average of 39.

It is an outrage that Irfan, whose domestic numbers were never more than than just good, was given a full 4 Tests on the most bowler friendly pitches in the world, but that Hamza, who has performed tirelessly for many seasons, would be dropped after one test in the UAE.

 

[Ahson8]

Good post.

I’m leaning towards taking six specialist quicks to South Africa plus Faheem Ashraf.

I’d open with Abbas (who would bat at 11) and Amir (9).

First change is Shaheen Shah Afridi (10).

Second change is Faheem Ashraf (8).

Sole spinner is Shadab Khan (7).

Spare quicks are:

Ehsan Adil (for his Under-19 brilliance in South Africa).
Hasan Ali
Junaid Khan

Abbas & Shaheen to open, Hasan as first change and Fahim as second change. Haris to provide the spin option

Fakhar
Imam
Azhar
Haris
Shafiq
Babar
Sarfraz
Fahim
Hasan
Shaheen
Abbas

 

[CricVet]

Irfan is actually a wonderful test case for the argument that in South African, height is always king, and that one should select bowlers on type, not performance. If you recall, he played his first and last Tests in South Africa, taking 10 wickets in 4 Tests at an average of 39.

It is an outrage that Irfan, whose domestic numbers were never more than than just good, was given a full 4 Tests on the most bowler friendly pitches in the world, but that Hamza, who has performed tirelessly for many seasons, would be dropped after one test in the UAE.

I agree with you there but did you not see how Irfan used to huff and puff after a short spell? There is a big difference between Irfan then and Shaheen now. This kid usually bowls with some wit and with time will only improve while Irfan had trouble keeping 3 balls on same line and length. The tour is more than a month away. Mir Hamza is a very good prospect and should be ahead on the table.

We have Amir and Abbas locked for the 2 spots at least for the first test. I am sure we would go with 3 pacers + Faheem and a spinner. The 3rd spot is up for grab and the bowlers competing will be Hassan (who in my opinion is the weakest link in tests), Junaid who did not perform well in S.A. last time, Hamza, and Shaheen.

NZ series would be ideal to test the competing bowlers. The pitches in UAE unfortunately are not the barometer to test the strength. However, If we won the first test, I would rest Abbas and let Shaheen and Hamza prove their worth.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Irfan is actually a wonderful test case for the argument that in South African, height is always king, and that one should select bowlers on type, not performance. If you recall, he played his first and last Tests in South Africa, taking 10 wickets in 4 Tests at an average of 39.

It is an outrage that Irfan, whose domestic numbers were never more than than just good, was given a full 4 Tests on the most bowler friendly pitches in the world, but that Hamza, who has performed tirelessly for many seasons, would be dropped after one test in the UAE.

Did you even follow cricket when Mohammad Irfan played? He played 2 Tests in South Africa and 2 in UAE. He was dealing with fitness issues during the 2 Tests he played in South Africa so he was not picked for the first test. When he was brought in for the second one, he immediately shone and looked the most threatening of our lot. He had a certain Tanvir Ahmed and Umar Gul for company in his debut Test and Ehsan Adil and Rahat Ali for his second Test. Our team was totally deflated after the capitulation in second Test and third test showed that with meek surrender.

Coming on to his other 2 Tests in UAE, he averaged 26 considering the drubbing Pak were handed over in the second Test with Smith and AB scoring a double and a 160odd. He played against the same opposition South Africa which at that time was the best Test team in the world by fair margin and had respectable numbers in UAE.

To say he played 4 Tests in South Africa in "perfect bowling conditions" is purely laughable as you don't seem old enough to know when that 4 Test match series in SA with pakistan was ever played. It's pretty clear you never saw him bowl in any of his Tests and yet you are here arguing why he never deserved a chance.

And who ever said about dropping Hamza? There are 3 Tests against NZ left, which will give a good account of whether he has it in him to succeed in international cricket or not. Even if he doesn't, he could be picked if he shows signs of improvement. And like I said in my previous post, 3rd seamer could be anyone who is performing.

Teams usually tend to take atleast 5 seamers on Test tours overseas especially to South Africa.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Good post.

I’m leaning towards taking six specialist quicks to South Africa plus Faheem Ashraf.

I’d open with Abbas (who would bat at 11) and Amir (9).

First change is Shaheen Shah Afridi (10).

Second change is Faheem Ashraf (8).

Sole spinner is Shadab Khan (7).

Spare quicks are:

Ehsan Adil (for his Under-19 brilliance in South Africa).
Hasan Ali
Junaid Khan

Ehsan Adil never appealed to me honestly, memorable performance 6 years back are not really a good way to gauge a player's current form. I believe he didn't really improve after that u19 wc. Every time he played, he looked by far the most toothless bowler of our team, and that is something considering he played his tests with Rahat Ali and Imran Khan.

I would go in with Abbas,Junaid and Shaheen. Amir needs to show hunger and heart to get picked here, he'd been given a free pass for way too long now.
I direly hope Hasan Ali, if picked, does well there although based on my bias, I don't think he will find success in Tests in SA or Aus.

 

[Titan24]

If his ODI series against NZ in UAE goes well there is a high chance for him debuting in SA tests.

 

[New Yorker]

Did you even follow cricket when Mohammad Irfan played? He played 2 Tests in South Africa and 2 in UAE. He was dealing with fitness issues during the 2 Tests he played in South Africa so he was not picked for the first test. When he was brought in for the second one, he immediately shone and looked the most threatening of our lot. He had a certain Tanvir Ahmed and Umar Gul for company in his debut Test and Ehsan Adil and Rahat Ali for his second Test. Our team was totally deflated after the capitulation in second Test and third test showed that with meek surrender.

Coming on to his other 2 Tests in UAE, he averaged 26 considering the drubbing Pak were handed over in the second Test with Smith and AB scoring a double and a 160odd. He played against the same opposition South Africa which at that time was the best Test team in the world by fair margin and had respectable numbers in UAE.

To say he played 4 Tests in South Africa in "perfect bowling conditions" is purely laughable as you don't seem old enough to know when that 4 Test match series in SA with pakistan was ever played. It's pretty clear you never saw him bowl in any of his Tests and yet you are here arguing why he never deserved a chance.

And who ever said about dropping Hamza? There are 3 Tests against NZ left, which will give a good account of whether he has it in him to succeed in international cricket or not. Even if he doesn't, he could be picked if he shows signs of improvement. And like I said in my previous post, 3rd seamer could be anyone who is performing.

And let me tell you something kiddo, teams usually tend to take atleast 5 seamers on Test tours overseas especially to South Africa, so kindly read the post slowly and carefully again before coming out all guns blazing.

I think our conversation ends here. Unfortunate that you can't keep a minimally civil tone over something so trivial as cricket. I suspect that I have a couple of decades on you, you should certainly not assume otherwise.

 

[New Yorker]

I agree with you there but did you not see how Irfan used to huff and puff after a short spell? There is a big difference between Irfan then and Shaheen now. This kid usually bowls with some wit and with time will only improve while Irfan had trouble keeping 3 balls on same line and length. The tour is more than a month away. Mir Hamza is a very good prospect and should be ahead on the table.

We have Amir and Abbas locked for the 2 spots at least for the first test. I am sure we would go with 3 pacers + Faheem and a spinner. The 3rd spot is up for grab and the bowlers competing will be Hassan (who in my opinion is the weakest link in tests), Junaid who did not perform well in S.A. last time, Hamza, and Shaheen.

NZ series would be ideal to test the competing bowlers. The pitches in UAE unfortunately are not the barometer to test the strength. However, If we won the first test, I would rest Abbas and let Shaheen and Hamza prove their worth.

Sure, we are not in disagreement. I was also mistaken about the number of Tests Irfan played in South Africa. But no matter how you cut it, he did poorly, in a place where good fast bowlers average in their teens. So we know that height without skill is not necessarily a threat, contrary to what this thread would have us believe. It is all too easy to point to Mitch Johnson and say, look he made batsmen jump, or Morkel, and say, look tall bowlers do well. Well, to be exact about it, Mitch and Morkel did well and unless you know you have someone who is as good as they are, don't assume that pace and height alone is going to win the day. I'm certainly wanting to believe Shaheen will be better, but there is little evidence that he is a good FC bowler yet. Some very promising performances, but just no record to go on. So I have been perplexed that every mention of fast bowlers to take to South Africa includes him but does not mention Hamza.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I think our conversation ends here. Unfortunate that you can't keep a minimally civil tone over something so trivial as cricket. I suspect that I have a couple of decades on you, you should certainly not assume otherwise.

Come better prepared and learn to respect other's views rather than giving snide comments out of the blue. The very polite response led me to cross the line.

 

[AliMurtaza]

No need to take untested Shaheen to SA test tour. He has hardly played any 4-day cricket. I wanted him to play the 2 4-day matches against NZ A instead of the limited overs series against NZ but it hasn’t happened.

 

[New Yorker]

Come better prepared and learn to respect other's views rather than giving snide comments out of the blue. The very polite response led me to cross the line.

You argued that we should consider taking Irfan to South Africa and I pointed out that he has a poor record in South Africa, though he is the tallest bowler in the world. Which argument still stands. It seemed a pertinent comment, also given the topic of this thread, and in no way was it snide. I did not use language that was aggressive or derogatory, and I did not call you names. In other words, I was perfectly respectful of you and your views, while also disagreeing with them. Which seems to have been the problem for you. I don't know what it would mean to say that a comment is out of the blue. Do you propose that I ask you in advance for permission to respond to a message that you have posted on a public board?

 

[BunnyRabbit]

You argued that we should consider taking Irfan to South Africa and I pointed out that he has a poor record in South Africa, though he is the tallest bowler in the world. Which argument still stands. It seemed a pertinent comment, also given the topic of this thread, and in no way was it snide. I did not use language that was aggressive or derogatory, and I did not call you names. In other words, I was perfectly respectful of you and your views, while also disagreeing with them. Which seems to have been the problem for you. I don't know what it would mean to say that a comment is out of the blue. Do you propose that I ask you in advance for permission to respond to a message that you have posted on a public board?

Well you implied I was asking for Mir Hamza to be dropped something I didn't even mention. Also sarcastically hinting at my views that physical attributes should be preferred over performance something I didn't say. I was making an argument that Irfan if fit and in form can be devastating on South African attacks which I still believe to be true.
Although I apologize for the kiddo remark.

 

[aloo paratha]

Shadab/Faheem combo will play for sure.

Imam
Azhar
Haris
Shafiq
Babar
Sarfraz
Shadab
Faheem
Hassan
Abbas
Shaheen/Hamza

 

[Junaids]

No need to take untested Shaheen to SA test tour. He has hardly played any 4-day cricket. I wanted him to play the 2 4-day matches against NZ A instead of the limited overs series against NZ but it hasn’t happened.

So who are you going to employ to bowl 145K from a height of 10 feet to break Dean Elgar and FAF du Plessis' hands at Johannesburg and Centurion?

It's all very well saying that Shaheen Shah Afridi is raw - although Wasim Akram was younger and less experienced when he made his Test debut in New Zealand.....and 2 matches later he took 10 wickets in the Dunedin Test.

But who else can do that job? If you don't pick Shaheen Shah Afridi you have to select Wahab Riaz in the starting eleven, because no one else is tall enough or quick enough.

 

[MenInG]

So now that he is part of the Pakistan Test squad vs New Zealand, there is a good chance he will be bowling in Tests in SA also

 

[hadi123]

So now that he is part of the Pakistan Test squad vs New Zealand, there is a good chance he will be bowling in Tests in SA also

I reckon the chances of him debuting against NZ are pretty likely.

 

[CricVet]

A very good and fit attack of Abbas and Afridi. I am guessing those would be the only 2 fast bowlers for the 1st test.

 

[MenInG]

Could he show up for the 2nd Test tomorrow? Although dont think our bowlers were that bad in the 1st Test