South Africa A v India A | 2nd unofficial Test | Pretoria | Aug 24-27, 2013

[ST1998]

How can we discard someone on the basis of a single test match. Rahane has been a champion FC batsman for some time and on basis of that he deserves more chances.

As KIC stated he has got many more chances at many more levels since that test. That he couldn't capitalize on to them, is his folly alone. He needs to understand that he won’t get too many chances especially seeing the flurry of batsmen coming through ranks.

Further on Delhi test, its not his failures which rankle us so much, it’s the manner in which he was dismissed, showed a complete lack of belongingness to this level, looked like he simply doesn’t have temperament for this level. I’d love to be proved wrong though on this.

Lets see what he does today.

 

[ST1998]

Pujara has been willing to open.

If what you're saying is true then he already has my respect more than Dravid ever had in this area at least.

Dravid was always reluctant to open for India in tests despite being a virtual opener for much of his career. That we had to waste a slot over a token opener just due to his stubbornness to open is a big question mark on his legacy.

 

[Saurav]

If what you're saying is true then he already has my respect more than Dravid ever had in this area at least.

Dravid was always reluctant to open for India in tests despite being a virtual opener for much of his career. That we had to waste a slot over a token opener just due to his stubbornness to open is a big question mark on his legacy.

lol Dravid opened for us when he was captain himself.Talk about reluctance

and then he kept wickets around 2003 WC allowing us to play an extra batsman.He's the last person you can accuse of such things

 

[KIC]

^^Why only Dravid? Why not Sachin or Laxman or Ganguly as well?

Dravid did open quite a few times for India when required - the away test series in Pakistan, the recent away series against England.

Sachin never budged from No. 4 in Tests but always insisted on opening in ODIs.

VVS refused to do so after the first part of his career.

I wouldn't hold a player's preference for a slot against him as long as he is willing to make exceptions when required.

 

[ST1998]

lol Dravid opened for us when he was captain himself.Talk about reluctance

and then he kept wickets around 2003 WC allowing us to play an extra batsman.He's the last person you can accuse of such things

That was more like forced to open in those instances, 17/286 innings he played in his test career, just 5% of the total no. of times he batted in his test career. As I said earlier, that he was a virtual opener for most of the times in his test career (except during the time when Sehwag-Gambhir combo was firing on all cylinders for few years) and walked into bat in the first few overs, why couldn't he open regularly for Indian test team? Could be some sort of a mental block.

As for WC'03, don't make me laugh. His position in Indian team wasn't certain and Ganguly told him in no uncertain terms to either play as a WK bat in Indian ODI team or not play at all. Not too difficult to tell what anyone would do in such a scenario. That he did so well as WK bat which incidentally coincided with India's golden run in ODIs, says a lot about his adaptability and wonderful abilities. But don't make it as if he did some sort of favour on us.

 

[KIC]

Why did Sachin Tendulkar not regularly open for the Indian test team when he was opening regularly in ODIs?

 

[ST1998]

^^Why only Dravid? Why not Sachin or Laxman or Ganguly as well?

Dravid did open quite a few times for India when required - the away test series in Pakistan, the recent away series against England.

As I said above, still not enough for such a long career. Plus, that was more due to being forced.

Sachin never budged from No. 4 in Tests but always insisted on opening in ODIs.

Probably, because he has been the best player in history of cricket in both the positions he batted on in both forms of the game? If thats best for the team, then why not? And I sincerely hope you do understand the difference between opening in tests and opening in ODIs.

VVS refused to do so after the first part of his career.

Probably because his technique was nowhere as good as Dravid's? And hence he was more suited to a middle order slot. Anyways, there is a helluva difference between opening and batting at 5/6 where he usually batted in his test career.

 

[ST1998]

Why did Sachin Tendulkar not regularly open for the Indian test team when he was opening regularly in ODIs?

Posted for you, again.


Probably because he has been the best player in history of cricket in both the positions he batted on in both forms of the game? If thats best for the team, then why not? And I sincerely hope you do understand the difference between opening in tests and opening in ODIs.

 

[KIC]

As for WC'03, don't make me laugh. His position in Indian team wasn't certain and Ganguly told him in no uncertain terms to either play as a WK bat in Indian ODI team or not play at all. Not too difficult to tell what anyone would do in such a scenario. That he did so well as WK bat which incidentally coincided with India's golden run in ODIs, says a lot about his adaptability and wonderful abilities. But don't make it as if he did some sort of favour on us.

Do you seriously think a Dinesh Mongia would've played ahead of Rahul Dravid in the WC'03 team? He played as a wicket keeper since we did not have a Dhoni equivalent (keeper who could bat well) at that time and playing an extra batsman in the line up made sense. If we had gone with a proper keeper, it is not difficult to see who among Dravid and Mongia would've missed out.

 

[ST1998]

lol Dravid opened for us when he was captain himself.

Factually incorrect.

He batted 61 times in tests when he was Indian captain. Not once did he open for India in tests.

 

[KIC]

As I said above, still not enough for such a long career. Plus, that was more due to being forced.

He opened when he was captain and no one could've forced him to. In fact, there was an option to put Ganguly in that slot, which he chose not to.

Probably, because he has been the best player in history of cricket in both the positions he batted on in both forms of the game? If thats best for the team, then why not? And I sincerely hope you do understand the difference between opening in tests and opening in ODIs.

Why should the same reason not apply to Dravid? He was much better at No. 3 than as an opener and definitely more comfortable with the former. A Dravid in top form is best for the team - in some cases, even more than Tendulkar, as he absorbs all the pressure upfront.

Probably because his technique was nowhere as good as Dravid's? And hence he was more suited to a middle order slot. Anyways, there is a helluva difference between opening and batting at 5/6 where he usually batted in his test career.

At the highest level, it is not just about technique but also about what you are most comfortable doing. Dravid was most comfortable at No 3, not at No. 1 or 2. Ditto for Laxman. And I see nothing wrong in them sticking to what they are most comfortable with ...as in the case of Tendulkar.

 

[ST1998]

Do you seriously think a Dinesh Mongia would've played ahead of Rahul Dravid in the WC'03 team? He played as a wicket keeper since we did not have a Dhoni equivalent (keeper who could bat well) at that time and playing an extra batsman in the line up made sense. If we had gone with a proper keeper, it is not difficult to see who among Dravid and Mongia would've missed out.

You're dissing Mongia probably because you don't know/remember circumstances of those times. Plus, now someone like Mongia would like a nobody as compared to someone like Dravid who has 10K runs in both forms of the game. Alo, Dravid's low S/r in ODIs dragged his case down a lot.

But believe me Mongia did pretty well in the chances he got during those times, even got a 150-odd in an ODI, albeit against Zims who used to be quite strong though in those times.

 

[KIC]

Factually incorrect.

He batted 61 times in tests when he was Indian captain. Not once did he open for India in tests.

Who opened on the tour to Pakistan under Dravid's captaincy?

 

[KIC]

You're dissing Mongia probably because you don't know/remember circumstances of those times. Plus, now someone like Mongia would like a nobody as compared to someone like Dravid who has 10K runs in both forms of the game. Alo, Dravid's low S/r in ODIs dragged his case down a lot.

But believe me Mongia did pretty well in the chances he got during those times, even got a 150-odd in an ODI, albeit against Zims who used to be quite strong though in those times.

Sure, pick a 150 odd against Zim to make your case.

 

[Saurav]

That was more like forced to open in those instances, 17/286 innings he played in his test career, just 5% of the total no. of times he batted in his test career. As I said earlier, that he was a virtual opener for most of the times in his test career (except during the time when Sehwag-Gambhir combo was firing on all cylinders for few years) and walked into bat in the first few overs, why couldn't he open regularly for Indian test team? Could be some sort of a mental block.

As for WC'03, don't make me laugh. His position in Indian team wasn't certain and Ganguly told him in no uncertain terms to either play as a WK bat in Indian ODI team or not play at all. Not too difficult to tell what anyone would do in such a scenario. That he did so well as WK bat which incidentally coincided with India's golden run in ODIs, says a lot about his adaptability and wonderful abilities. But don't make it as if he did some sort of favour on us.

You are not making any sense.Who forced him when he was captain himself?There is a difference between a permanent opener and virtual opener.He was doing well at no.3 so why'd he open?Who'd have been no.3 if he did?

He wasn't certain in WC 03 squad?bullcrap .Was our top scorer in 99 WC and had a very good 2002,averaging 48,playing a crucial role in our Natwest Trophy win too.Helped chase down 325 v WI in 2002.Yeah sure his place wasnt certain

 

[ST1998]

He opened when he was captain and no one could've forced him to. In fact, there was an option to put Ganguly in that slot, which he chose not to.

As has been said above, this statement is factually incorrect.

He batted 61 times in tests when he was Indian captain. Not once did he open for India in tests.

Why should the same reason not apply to Dravid? He was much better at No. 3 than as an opener and definitely more comfortable with the former. A Dravid in top form is best for the team - in some cases, even more than Tendulkar, as he absorbs all the pressure upfront.

I agree about him being more comfortable at no.3 rather than as an opener. But as I said, he was virtually an opener anyway for most part of his test career.

At the highest level, it is not just about technique but also about what you are most comfortable doing. Dravid was most comfortable at No 3, not at No. 1 or 2. Ditto for Laxman. And I see nothing wrong in them sticking to what they are most comfortable with ...as in the case of Tendulkar.

As far as I'm concerned its not always about your comfort levels, its about what team needs more from you.

Out of these 3, Dravid had unquestionably better technique to survive as opener in tests and hence the debate about why didn't put his hand up to open for his team more often.

 

[KIC]

You're dissing Mongia probably because you don't know/remember circumstances of those times. Plus, now someone like Mongia would like a nobody as compared to someone like Dravid who has 10K runs in both forms of the game. Alo, Dravid's low S/r in ODIs dragged his case down a lot.

But believe me Mongia did pretty well in the chances he got during those times, even got a 150-odd in an ODI, albeit against Zims who used to be quite strong though in those times.

You make two points to make a case for Mongia's inclusion over Dravid:

A) Dravid's low S/R

B) Mongia's good performances in the chances he got

Let us consider

A) Mongia's SR was a phenomenal 71.5. Minnow adjusted, his SR was in the low to mid 60s. I think Dravid struggled to score slower than that even when he was very poor.

B) Mongia averaged a phenomenal 27 @ SR of 71.5. In away matches, it got even better - averaged 17 @ SR of 62. In Neutral venues, 31 @ 66. I did not even bother to minnow adjust this.

Sure. He was a shoo in and Dravid *had* to keep wickets in order to get into the team.

 

[ST1998]

Who opened on the tour to Pakistan under Dravid's captaincy?

I concede, he opened twice in 2 tests on India's tour to Pak in '06. I thought Ganguly was still leading us during that series. My mistake. But were those 2 tests enough? He was our regular captain for many more tests after that, but didn't do that.

 

[KIC]

As has been said above, this statement is factually incorrect.

He batted 61 times in tests when he was Indian captain. Not once did he open for India in tests.

Answer the question I posed earlier - who opened in Pakistan when Dravid was captain?

I agree about him being more comfortable at no.3 rather than as an opener. But as I said, he was virtually an opener anyway for most part of his test career.

As far as I'm concerned its not always about your comfort levels, its about what team needs more from you.

The Indian team could ill afford an underperforming Dravid more than it could ill afford even an underperforming Tendulkar on most away tours. Dravid's away average was better than Tendulkar's. For home series, the point is irrelevant - any opener we put up used to do well.

Out of these 3, Dravid had unquestionably better technique to survive as opener in tests and hence the debate about why didn't put his hand up to open for his team more often.

And that is why he put his hand up whenever there was a crisis and went out of his comfort zone. But you dont run a team in crisis mode throughout. You look for the best opening options and use your fall back if they dont work. Ashish Chopra worked for a while. Virendra Sehwag and Gautam Gambhir were discovered. Had Dravid just opened throughout, we would've had him underperforming vis-a-vis what he has achieved and not discovered these others either.

 

[ST1998]

Sure, pick a 150 odd against Zim to make your case.

Surely not only Mongia. As I said its easy to forget since that innings came against 'lowly' Zim.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Dravid's position was never in question for WC 2003.

Can't believe Dravid is getting blamed here when he is the first person when it comes to being a selfless cricketer.

 

[Saurav]

Dravid's position was never in question for WC 2003.

Can't believe Dravid is getting blamed here when he is the first person when it comes to being a selfless cricketer.

totally agree

 

[KIC]

I concede, he opened twice in 2 tests on India's tour to Pak in '06. I thought Ganguly was still leading us during that series. My mistake. But were those 2 tests enough? He was our regular captain for many more tests after that, but didn't do that.

Because it was just a fall back option. Not a default one. And rightly so.

Incidentally, Wasim Jaffer came into the side from the next series and had a fairly good run as opener.

 

[KIC]

Surely not only Mongia. As I said its easy to forget since that innings came against 'lowly' Zim.

I have provided Mongia's overall stats in another post. You can try filtering it any way you want ...you'll still struggle to make a case for him.

 

[ST1998]

The Indian team could ill afford an underperforming Dravid more than it could ill afford even an underperforming Tendulkar on most away tours. Dravid's away average was better than Tendulkar's.

lol, there can't be a bigger factually incorrect comment than this. Dravid went AWOL most of the times when the going went tough against best in business as his record in tough places like SA and Aus (except once when McWarne weren't playing) amply suggests.

If even then you issue statements like these then I don't have much to discuss on this issue.

 

[Sandeep]

Dravid getting the flak now! Indian fans surely don't have any gratitude

 

[Aman]

wellofcourse :

You need to be really good to have a realistic chance against Steyn and Philander in those conditions

I don't really expect much from Kohli he is rubbish against the moving ball , his only hope is the top order if they bat 20-30 he has a chance to score some big runs in the middle until the second new ball that is

But with that being said I don't think there are many today who are good at playing the new ball other than Amla.

 

[KIC]

lol, there can't be a bigger factually incorrect comment than this. Dravid went AWOL most of the times when the going went tough against best in business as his record in tough places like SA and Aus (except once when McWarne weren't playing) amply suggests.

If even then you issue statements like these then I don't have much to discuss on this issue.

Well, you dont appear to have too much left to discuss in any case.

Essentially what you are saying is that Dravid is better technically than Tendulkar and hence he should open.

But but but ...he also does not turn up when conditions are really tough.

Yet, he should have opened!

In any case, I am not into dissing one player to prop up the other. But then I am not the one calling a player selfish or whatever for sticking to the position he is most comfortable with.

 

[Sandeep]

I don't really expect much from Kohli he is rubbish against the moving ball , his only hope is the top order if they bat 20-30 he has a chance to score some big runs in the middle until the second new ball that is

But with that being said I don't think there are many today who are good at playing the new ball other than Amla.

Cook? Bell? Kallis? Jamshed?

 

[ST1998]

Dravid's position was never in question for WC 2003.

Probably because someone thought that he started his WKing duties from WC'03 onwards while in reality he started keeping wickets from WC '99 onwards. His record as ODI cricket till he started keeping wickets read as,

Averaging 34 @ S/r of 66. If thats good enough for you, your choice. I never propounded this WC'03 thing.

Can't believe Dravid is getting blamed here when he is the first person when it comes to being a selfless cricketer.

Your're free to say as many things about him (most of which he deserves anyways). But for me, he'll always remain a batsman who despite having such a water tight technique necessary for succeeding in test cricket, couldn't quite do what Indian team of that time required from him and that despite virtually doing that anyways most of the times during his career.

 

[Aman]

Cook? Bell? Kallis? Jamshed?

Cook and Bell perhaps but I said there aren't that many.

Its way too early to say if Jamshed is good against the new ball or not.

 

[Saurav]

I don't really expect much from Kohli he is rubbish against the moving ball , his only hope is the top order if they bat 20-30 he has a chance to score some big runs in the middle until the second new ball that is

But with that being said I don't think there are many today who are good at playing the new ball other than Amla.

Kohli is still young.he'll improve.Besides almost everyone is vulnerable to a quality bowler moving it early on in his innings

 

[Sandeep]

Cook and Bell perhaps but I said there aren't that many.

Its way too early to say if Jamshed is good against the new ball or not.

Was just trolling mate.. Jamshed and new ball )

 

[ST1998]

Well, you dont appear to have too much left to discuss in any case.

Just because you declared it. Good going.

Essentially what you are saying is that Dravid is better technically than Tendulkar and hence he should open.

But but but ...he also does not turn up when conditions are really tough.

Yet, he should have opened!

Technically, he was better equipped to open in test cricket that he didn't have a good record in 2/3 toughest places to bat will always be baffling. Probably a mental thing.

In any case, I am not into dissing one player to prop up the other.

You already did, if you care to read your own posts.

 

[Aman]

Was just trolling mate.. Jamshed and new ball )

He played India pretty well and of what I've seen of him he usually gets himself out by playing at a ball wide of the off stump. I wouldn't say anything definitive till I see more of him.

 

[Sandeep]

He played India pretty well and of what I've seen of him he usually gets himself out by playing at a ball wide of the off stump.

Can't judge against trundlers.. Failed elsewhere

 

[ST1998]

Dravid getting the flak now! Indian fans surely don't have any gratitude

So he is above all that? If Tendulkar can get flak for every little thing then surely Dravid too could get his share of flak as he hardly ever seemed to get it during his career.

 

[battler]

Kohli is pretty good against the inswinger as he usually flicks these inswingers to the leg side.
And we all know how good he is when it comes to leg side play second only to azharuddin.
Late outswing is his weakness though!

 

[Aman]

Can't judge against trundlers.. Failed elsewhere

BK is a good bowler and under those conditions was quite difficult to play very early on. He is still young and his form drop seems to be more mental than anything.

 

[Sandeep]

So he is above all that? If Tendulkar can get flak for every little thing then surely Dravid too could who was still a level below Tendulkar's batsmanship.

No mood to argue. Continue with your good work

 

[Aman]

Kohli is pretty good against the inswinger as he usually flicks these inswingers to the leg side.
And we all know how good he is when it comes to leg side play second only to azharuddin.
Late outswing is his weakness though!

Yeah inswing he can play easy but it's the outswinger that has his number

 

[Sandeep]

BK is a good bowler and under those conditions was quite difficult to play very early on. He is still young and his form drop seems to be more mental than anything.

Then what about Kohli who is almost the same age as Jamshed? He went though a bad patch that series and scored runs all over the world again. Why are you so dismissive when it comes to Indians?

 

[Aman]

I expect Dhoni, Kohli and Ashwin to score most of India's runs with contributions from the tail here and there.

 

[Aman]

Then what about Kohli who is almost the same age as Jamshed? He went though a bad patch that series and scored runs all over the world again. Why are you so dismissive when it comes to Indians?

Perhaps it was the Indian series where Kohli was a sitting duck and Jamshed was scoring runs with relative ease. I haven't seen a lot of Kohli but I have never seen him score runs in conditions as difficult as the ones during the Indo-Pak series.

 

[ST1998]

No mood to argue. Continue with your good work

Good cop out. Bit sad that any player could be above criticism.

 

[ST1998]

I expect Dhoni, Kohli and Ashwin to score most of India's runs with contributions from the tail here and there.

So you think Pujara would fail too?

 

[battler]

People here are under estimating dhawan here!sure he doesn't have the best of techniques but neither did sehwag!I think and i expect shikhar to go big in atleast one of his innings there and that will really set india up for a win if the bowlers manage to do their job.

 

[Aman]

So you think Pujara would fail too?

I think he may score in one test but I don't see him scoring the bulk of the runs.

 

[Aman]

People here are under estimating dhawan here!sure he doesn't have the best of techniques but neither did sehwag!I think and i expect shikhar to go big in atleast one of his innings there and that will really set india up for a win if the bowlers manage to do their job.

He may get 50 but Steyn and Philander would really have to be off their game not to nick him off early.

 

[Sandeep]

Perhaps it was the Indian series where Kohli was a sitting duck and Jamshed was scoring runs with relative ease. I haven't seen a lot of Kohli but I have never seen him score runs in conditions as difficult as the ones during the Indo-Pak series.

Aha. Perhaps you should watch bit more cricket before passing judgements. Kohli has scored centuries in England and Australia (both formats). He played very well during India's last series in South Africa. Judging on one series isn't what is expected from a serious poster like you..

 

[Aman]

Aha. Perhaps you should watch bit more cricket before passing judgements. Kohli has scored centuries in England and Australia (both formats). He played very well during India's last series in South Africa. Judging on one series isn't what is expected from a serious poster like you..

He scored one century against SL on the flattest track in Australia and another down the order at 6 when the series had already been lost... It took him 8 look ins to finally to make a ton, heck if I remember correctly Warner made a quick fire 100 in the same game as well..

 

[ST1998]

Perhaps it was the Indian series where Kohli was a sitting duck and Jamshed was scoring runs with relative ease.

And you thought that a 3-ODI series is enough to guage the potential of a batsman? Probably also failed to consider that what bowling attacks both were facing.

Anyways, Jamshed has been dropped many times since that series while Kohli's place is as assured as Dhoni's, that tells you a bit about their respective statures even when it is so difficult to cement your place in Indian batting order while Pakistan aren't exactly blessed in this facet of the game.

 

[ST1998]

He scored one century against SL on the flattest track in Australia and another down the order at 6 when the series had already been lost... It took him 8 look ins to finally to make a ton, heck if I remember correctly Warner made a quick fire 100 in the same game as well..

So you always have your excuses ready in case Indian cricketers do well.

Keep it up.

 

[Aman]

So you always have your excuses ready in case Indian cricketers do well.

Keep it up.

I think we'd agree batting up front and batting at 6 are two different beasts

 

[ST1998]

Judging on one series isn't what is expected from a serious poster like you..

Don't know about him but you don't seem to be serious when you wrote this.

 

[battler]

He may get 50 but Steyn and Philander would really have to be off their game not to nick him off early.

Only the new ball will be a problem and once dhawan reaches 50 i'd expect him to go big because by that time the shine will be of the new ball and we all know how good steyn and philander are with the older ball

 

[ST1998]

He may get 50 but Steyn and Philander would really have to be off their game not to nick him off early.

lol, so it always needs to have someone off the boil for Indian cricketers to do well.

Keep these gems coming.

 

[amax]

Pujara Yadav and Zaheer should be the core of Indian team for SA series.

 

[Aman]

I'm not saying Jamshed is better than Kohli, so don't mistake that. I'm just saying it's far too early to judge his ability against the new ball he has only played 30 odd ODI's and a few tests. I've haven't seen Kohli score in difficult conditions before so I have written him off for now but it doesn't mean he can't improve but for now he is a poor player against the moving ball for me.

 

[ST1998]

I think we'd agree batting up front and batting at 6 are two different beasts

So all the efforts that came from someone batting at 6, need to be discounted and don't hold any value.

As I said, keep'em coming.

 

[KIC]

Technically, he was better equipped to open in test cricket that he didn't have a good record in 2/3 toughest places to bat will always be baffling. Probably a mental thing.

Questions for you:

A) Which is the tougher attack?

Donald + Pollock + Kluesner + Macmillan + Adams + Cronje
or
Steyn + Morkel + Tsotsobe + Harris + Kallis + Peterson

B) Does England qualify as a tough place to score runs in?

Fact for you:

In all the overseas series they have played together (excluding BD and Zim), Dravid has averaged higher in 11 and Tendulkar in 11.

 

[Aman]

lol, so it always needs to have someone off the boil for Indian cricketers to do well.

Keep these gems coming.

When you play as aggressively as Dhawan the chances of you nicking off increase drastically...

 

[Aman]

So all the efforts that came from someone batting at 6, need to be discounted and don't hold any value.

As I said, keep'em coming.

You need to acknowledge it when making comparisons but with that being said Jamshed has only played 2 tests. I am only giving Jamshed a chance because of what he has shown in difficult conditions in ODI's. Troll else where please

 

[Aman]

Anyways, Jamshed has been dropped many times since that series while Kohli's place is as assured as Dhoni's, that tells you a bit about their respective statures even when it is so difficult to cement your place in Indian batting order while Pakistan aren't exactly blessed in this facet of the game.

This takes the cake really, you obviously don't understand the difference between the Indian psyche and the Pakistani psyche.

 

[ST1998]

It took him 8 look ins to finally to make a ton

It took Tendulkar a total of 9 tests to finally make a test ton.

It took Tendulkar a total of 79 ODIs to finally make an ODI ton.

It took Steve Waugh a total of 30 tests to finally make a test ton.

Thankfully, Indian and Aus selectors didn't think like you do or else we'd have been deprived of seeing 2 ATGs of cricket.

 

[Aman]

It took Tendulkar a total of 9 tests to finally make a test ton.

It took Tendulkar a total of 79 ODIs to finally make an ODI ton.

It took Steve Waugh a total of 30 tests to finally make a test ton.

Thankfully, Indian and Aus selectors didn't think like you do or else we'd have been deprived of seeing 2 ATGs of cricket.

8 innings in a series for a player of his capabilities is poor by the 2nd test you should be well adjusted to the conditions. From what I've seen so far he only makes runs when the series is already over that too at number 6. Scoring a century or double at number 6 is hell of a lot than scoring one at 1,2, 3 or 4 (depending on when you come in) not many have the luxury to play 4 tests against the best teams and have the extra time to adjust to conditions.

 

[ST1998]

Questions for you:

A) Which is the tougher attack?

Donald + Pollock + Kluesner + Macmillan + Adams + Cronje
or
Steyn + Morkel + Tsotsobe + Harris + Kallis + Peterson

B) Does England qualify as a tough place to score runs in?

Fact for you:

In all the overseas series they have played together (excluding BD and Zim), Dravid has averaged higher in 11 and Tendulkar in 11.

First attack, even though 2nd one does have already an ATG Steyn which is again a very tempting option to go for.

Pls read again what I wrote. I said Dravid failed to do well in 2/3 places, not all places. Eng obviously, is the 3rd place (only place) where he did well despite tough conditions while Tendulkar did very well in Eng and Aus and fairly well in SA, something which you can't proclaim for Dravid.

As for the fact, I'd again advise you to read my post, I said

I said Dravid failed to do well in 2/3 places

Where is the question of their resepective abilities in all away series? Were we even discussing that? You probably know that all those away series would also include places like SL, Pakistan, WI and NZ which surely aren't the criteria which is being discussed here.

 

[ST1998]

8 innings in a series for a player of his capabilities is poor by the 2nd test you should be well adjusted to the conditions. From what I've seen so far he only makes runs when the series is already over that too at number 6. Scoring a century or double at number 6 is hell of a lot than scoring one at 1,2, 3 or 4 (depending on when you come in).

What would you call Dravid then who failed to score even 100 runs in Aus in 6 innings even after playing for 3 years in Indian team?

At least, Kohli was still very new to Indian test team and had played only handful of innings till then.

 

[ST1998]

Troll else where please

Look who is talking about trolling!!

 

[KIC]

Probably because someone thought that he started his WKing duties from WC'03 onwards while in reality he started keeping wickets from WC '99 onwards. His record as ODI cricket till he started keeping wickets read as,

Averaging 34 @ S/r of 66. If thats good enough for you, your choice. I never propounded this WC'03 thing.

What nonsense!

He kept wickets in a grand total of 9 ODIs before 2002. He started keeping wickets in 2002 (build up to WC 2003), when we did not have a good enough keeper who could bat and wanted to fit in an extra batsman.

Prior to 2002, he averaged 37 @ SR of 67

In the year 2001, he averaged 43.5 @ 71

In the year 2002, he played 5 matches as non keeper and averaged 38 @ 79

Clearly, stats of a player that was on the verge of being dropped for the Bradmanesque Dinesh Mongia.

 

[Aman]

What would you call Dravid then who failed to score even 100 runs in Aus in 6 innings even after playing for 3 years in Indian team?

At least, Kohli was still very new to Indian test team and had played only handful of innings till then.

Difference is he was scoring runs against other teams and not batting at 6? or didn't have someone waiting in the wings.

 

[KIC]

First attack, even though 2nd one does have already an ATG Steyn which is again a very tempting option to go for.

Pls read again what I wrote. I said Dravid failed to do well in 2/3 places, not all places. Eng obviously, is the 3rd place (only place) where he did well despite tough conditions while Tendulkar did very well in Eng and Aus and fairly well in SA, something which you can't proclaim for Dravid.

As for the fact, I'd again advise you to read my post, I said

I said Dravid failed to do well in 2/3 places

Where is the question of their resepective abilities in all away series? Were we even discussing that? You probably know that all those away series would also include places like SL, Pakistan, WI and NZ which surely aren't the criteria which is being discussed here.

Incidentally, Dravid outscored Tendulkar against the first attack on the former's first tour to SA.

And why should England, WI, Pakistan, NZ, SL etc not matter? Is it not important to win / do well against these countries? Remember, we are not debating who was the better player between the two. We are discussing in context of what was good for the team in that period when you claim Dravid should have opened. I am just pointing out that across that period Dravid's overseas form mattered as much to the Indian team as Tendulkar's did. So one cannot just take one player at random and put him out of his comfort zone.

 

[ST1998]

When you play as aggressively as Dhawan the chances of you nicking off increase drastically...

Just because he scored at a S/r of better than a run a ball in his only innings in test cricket doesn't mean he can't put his foot down when required. He showed glimpses of his staying abilities in the first test against SA 'A'. Obviously, he didn't succeed in scoring too many in that innings and SA's main attack would be far better than what he faced. But we don't know something which we haven't witnessed as yet.

 

[ST1998]

Difference is he was scoring runs against other teams and not batting at 6? or didn't have someone waiting in the wings.

And you know that with certainty.

 

[ST1998]

Incidentally, Dravid outscored Tendulkar against the first attack on the former's first tour to SA.

So having a test match which produced a total of 232 runs for him in a single test is enough for you to offset all other failures of him in every subsequent series there? For me, it is not, especially from someone of his class and abilities.

And why should England, WI, Pakistan, NZ, SL etc not matter? Is it not important to win / do well against these countries? Remember, we are not debating who was the better player between the two. We are discussing in context of what was good for the team in that period when you claim Dravid should have opened. I am just pointing out that across that period Dravid's overseas form mattered as much to the Indian team as Tendulkar's did. So one cannot just take one player at random and put him out of his comfort zone.

Probably because the discussion did veer towards that when you said that an out of form Dravid's form is far more important than an out of form Tendulkar's form or something to that effect.

 

[ST1998]

What nonsense!

He kept wickets in a grand total of 9 ODIs before 2002. He started keeping wickets in 2002 (build up to WC 2003), when we did not have a good enough keeper who could bat and wanted to fit in an extra batsman.

Prior to 2002, he averaged 37 @ SR of 67

In the year 2001, he averaged 43.5 @ 71

In the year 2002, he played 5 matches as non keeper and averaged 38 @ 79

Clearly, stats of a player that was on the verge of being dropped for the Bradmanesque Dinesh Mongia.

lol as I said earlier, I wasn't even the one who started this WC'03 thing. Only said that he was not a certainty in Indian ODI team and he tried to hedge his bets by starting to keep wickets as well to cement his place in Indian ODI team which as we all know went off very well.

 

[ST1998]

Meanwhile Pujara run out. India 'A' 2/3.

Such a stupid way to get out in a test match.

 

[KIC]

lol as I said earlier, I wasn't even the one who started this WC'03 thing. Only said that he was not a certainty in Indian ODI team and he tried to hedge his bets by starting to keep wickets as well to cement his place in Indian ODI team which as we all know went off very well.

These same numbers show that this is a flawed theory.

He averaged 43+ @ 71 in the full year before he started keeping.

He averaged 38 @ 79 as a non keeper in the year he started keeping.

In what way is that supposed to read "not a certainty in the team" is beyond me.

 

[amax]

Meanwhile Pujara run out. India 'A' 2/3.

Such a stupid way to get out in a test match.

 

[Robbie]

I think we'd agree batting up front and batting at 6 are two different beasts

Best batsmen in the team always bat at middle order ...They are never openers.. Openers are there only to negotiate the new ball.. and more often than not they never have the strokes that middle order batsman have... There are exceptions like Gavaskar, Anwar, Sehwag... Untill now Jamshed has not done anything to suggest that he belongs among them in the future but noone can predict anything..

Kohli has not done enough... Kohli in England and Aus has not been as successfull as he has been elsewhere...
But watching him and Jamshed i picked up few things::
1)Kohli has the strokes, charisma, elegance and the attitude that says"I am The Man".. that can take him far like Ponting...
2)Jamshed is a hard working bloke that has a mental strength to be a successful opener and a natural leader like Cook.. that may not have the talent like KP.. but can be more effective than him...

People may never buy a ticket just to watch Jamshed play like Kohli.. but can be equally effective...we shall wait an see