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Takeaways from England versus Pakistan ODI series (2021)

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Needless to say this was a thoroughly disappointing series even by our low recent standards. It is commonly known that Pakistani cricket team is unpredictable but whenever Pakistan walks into any series / tournament with any level of decent expectations 9/10 times it is very predictable that they would disappoint (same happened in this series). Anyways as cricket fans and lovers we would like to reflect back on things that are going well and things that needs to be looked into before world tournaments.

Firstly, its very clear by now that for Pakistan to win any game it needs its 3 premier players all of whom needs to have a good game (i.e. Babar, Rizwan and Shaheen). If one of them does not live up to their billing most likely Pakistan would not win.

Lets start with the batting and the top order. This is arguably the best top order Pakistan can muster and arguably the best top 4 in its long history of playing cricket. This is the best aspect of this XI and yes they had 2 off games where they underestimated Saqib Mehmood or were simply switched off but on most days this top order is good enough by Pakistani standards.

Now the middle and late order. Sohaib Maqsood / Asif Ali, they both are of same fold type cricketers and basically every strong team needs one such type of player. Usually this player is the one who has nerves of steel and can see through a tight or difficult chase. In this aspect Sohaib is better than Asif as he has shown some stellar performances in chasing impossible scores in domestic recently. Hence, I'm happy with Sohaib's inclusion into the team.

Saud Shakeel needs to be replaced with Haris Sohail. If Haris is unfit then we need to find a similar mold player from domestics. At the moment no player name springs to mind for this position.

Shadab and Faheem should only play test cricket in SENA together. Unfortunately they are not good enough or reliable enough for ODIs. Imad is seriously way better than Shadab. I for one feel if Imad would have been opening the bowling in this series then we might have got their top order in some sort of problems. Faheem needs to improve his defensive bowling or needs to be replaced by someone like Amad Butt. At the moment Faheem is better than replacements but I really hope he learns the art of defensive bowling.

On bowling now, clearly Shaheen did not had a good series. When Shaheen does not bowl well Pakistan generally struggles in bowling. Its very evident that they over rely on Shaheen already. But my biggest concern is Haris Rauf. Haris does not deserve to play such consistent international cricket given he has nothing to show for in his career so far. The guy has barely played 2 domestic seasons stiched together but has been a regular feature in our international circuit with zero results to show for is hard to justify. The management should bite on their ego and recall Aamir to the team in replace of Rauf. Amir, Shaheen, Hasan, Imad and Faheem still looks like a decent attack on paper than what we fielded today.

I save the last bit for the last i.e. the PCB management. Without doubt our management is utterly clueless when it comes to tactics. Any school coach would have better plans and implementation that them. I was surprised when the tactics did not even change slightly from 1st match till 3rd match. Let me point out to some glaring brainless tactical blunders.
- Idea of wicket: Clearly the management by 10th over today should have figured out that this is a great batting track where even 350 can be chased down (was chased by England last time Pakistan played in UK, the management should have been aware of that). Yet there was no leader to take that decision, it was only Rizwan that when he came to bat he assessed this to be a very good pitch and accelerated well with Babar.
- Bowling tactics: In recent past our strength have been using spinners in powerplay especially to players like Salt who likes pace on bowl. I'm surprised that no one went down this route and partly its also because Shadab can't be trusted with new ball.
- Field placements - When we have Shadab then why do we need Imam at point? Why Sohaib at long on?

Misbah unfortunately has not developed his tactics with fast paced world of cricket and is stuck somewhere in early 2000s. By now it should be very clear that Waqar is far from anything but a coach. The guy was supremely but naturally talented so as a cricketer when Waqar placed so much reliance on his natural ability then how would he coach someone new? It beggars belief that we still have Waqar in coaching stints given his past record. Lastly, who is our fielding coach?

I know PCB would not sack Misbah of the back of this series. But plans should be put in place that Misbah is replaced after the WT20 this year giving the new coach a full year before next WT20 and also next WC to put his best XI together. If it was up to me I would like to see discussions happening with Andy Flower to bring him to the helm after WT20.
 
I cannot remember last time Pakistan lost a series and there were no positives.

The only half positive was the fact that Saud Shakeel is a half decent middle order batsman who also happens to be a half decent part time spinner.

Thats it really.
 
My takeaways are:
- England limited overs cricket has come a LONG way and arguably the most advanced system in the world
- Pakistan fielding still sucks. Hasan Ali is still catching poorly
- Need a left arm spin allrounder asap. Saud Shakeel half decent bowling is evidence
- Low quality PSL cricket is hurting Pakistan cricket, where 'veterans' are scoring runs regularly
- Haris Rauf needs a season or 2 to get his length right. Shaheen needs a break from cricket ASAP
- Too many allrounders in the side. Faheem and Shadab should not play at the same time. Faheem needs to be dropped
- the main difference was James Vince being fed wide deliveries, and dropped catches
 
Takeaways:

- Pakistan are not in a good shape when it comes to ODI format. Many weak links.
- England have great bench strength (LOI formats only).
 
😂 Best top 4 ever. 😂😂 You must have started watching cricket recently.

The key take away folks is that Pakistan's obsession with individual milestones must end, an England team of all low profile players except for Ben Stokes has just whitewashed Pakistan's main team.

As I always say, as long as you are contributing towards your teams win, it doesn't matter how many centuries you've scored or 5 for's you've taken.
 
😂 Best top 4 ever. 😂😂 You must have started watching cricket recently.

The key take away folks is that Pakistan's obsession with individual milestones must end, an England team of all low profile players except for Ben Stokes has just whitewashed Pakistan's main team.

As I always say, as long as you are contributing towards your teams win, it doesn't matter how many centuries you've scored or 5 for's you've taken.

Who is it then?
 
Need to get rid of Waqar like as soon as possible. He has one of the best fast bowling battery to work with but he’s failed them miserably. We need to bring in Andy flower along with his full support team. Last but not least, tell the players to stop making a fool out of themselves with these over the top celebrations specially Shaheen Shah!
 
Need to stop playing t20 cricket, as simple as that. And people must accept that this team is simply not good enough. The batting looks timid , bowlers are surviving on glory of the past era. Team is just not settled. There is no bowler who will win you matches. You should ideally have a spinner who can fetch you wickets but I don’t see shadab playing that role. What is surprising is the number of boundary balls that are being bowled in an over. Yes Coach can’t make you a different bowler than you are but this is precisely why you need a coach .
 
Needless to say this was a thoroughly disappointing series even by our low recent standards. It is commonly known that Pakistani cricket team is unpredictable but whenever Pakistan walks into any series / tournament with any level of decent expectations 9/10 times it is very predictable that they would disappoint (same happened in this series). Anyways as cricket fans and lovers we would like to reflect back on things that are going well and things that needs to be looked into before world tournaments.

Firstly, its very clear by now that for Pakistan to win any game it needs its 3 premier players all of whom needs to have a good game (i.e. Babar, Rizwan and Shaheen). If one of them does not live up to their billing most likely Pakistan would not win.

Lets start with the batting and the top order. This is arguably the best top order Pakistan can muster and arguably the best top 4 in its long history of playing cricket. This is the best aspect of this XI and yes they had 2 off games where they underestimated Saqib Mehmood or were simply switched off but on most days this top order is good enough by Pakistani standards.

Now the middle and late order. Sohaib Maqsood / Asif Ali, they both are of same fold type cricketers and basically every strong team needs one such type of player. Usually this player is the one who has nerves of steel and can see through a tight or difficult chase. In this aspect Sohaib is better than Asif as he has shown some stellar performances in chasing impossible scores in domestic recently. Hence, I'm happy with Sohaib's inclusion into the team.

Saud Shakeel needs to be replaced with Haris Sohail. If Haris is unfit then we need to find a similar mold player from domestics. At the moment no player name springs to mind for this position.

Shadab and Faheem should only play test cricket in SENA together. Unfortunately they are not good enough or reliable enough for ODIs. Imad is seriously way better than Shadab. I for one feel if Imad would have been opening the bowling in this series then we might have got their top order in some sort of problems. Faheem needs to improve his defensive bowling or needs to be replaced by someone like Amad Butt. At the moment Faheem is better than replacements but I really hope he learns the art of defensive bowling.

On bowling now, clearly Shaheen did not had a good series. When Shaheen does not bowl well Pakistan generally struggles in bowling. Its very evident that they over rely on Shaheen already. But my biggest concern is Haris Rauf. Haris does not deserve to play such consistent international cricket given he has nothing to show for in his career so far. The guy has barely played 2 domestic seasons stiched together but has been a regular feature in our international circuit with zero results to show for is hard to justify. The management should bite on their ego and recall Aamir to the team in replace of Rauf. Amir, Shaheen, Hasan, Imad and Faheem still looks like a decent attack on paper than what we fielded today.

I save the last bit for the last i.e. the PCB management. Without doubt our management is utterly clueless when it comes to tactics. Any school coach would have better plans and implementation that them. I was surprised when the tactics did not even change slightly from 1st match till 3rd match. Let me point out to some glaring brainless tactical blunders.
- Idea of wicket: Clearly the management by 10th over today should have figured out that this is a great batting track where even 350 can be chased down (was chased by England last time Pakistan played in UK, the management should have been aware of that). Yet there was no leader to take that decision, it was only Rizwan that when he came to bat he assessed this to be a very good pitch and accelerated well with Babar.
- Bowling tactics: In recent past our strength have been using spinners in powerplay especially to players like Salt who likes pace on bowl. I'm surprised that no one went down this route and partly its also because Shadab can't be trusted with new ball.
- Field placements - When we have Shadab then why do we need Imam at point? Why Sohaib at long on?

Misbah unfortunately has not developed his tactics with fast paced world of cricket and is stuck somewhere in early 2000s. By now it should be very clear that Waqar is far from anything but a coach. The guy was supremely but naturally talented so as a cricketer when Waqar placed so much reliance on his natural ability then how would he coach someone new? It beggars belief that we still have Waqar in coaching stints given his past record. Lastly, who is our fielding coach?

I know PCB would not sack Misbah of the back of this series. But plans should be put in place that Misbah is replaced after the WT20 this year giving the new coach a full year before next WT20 and also next WC to put his best XI together. If it was up to me I would like to see discussions happening with Andy Flower to bring him to the helm after WT20.


For the last bit.
Waqar and Misbah won’t even get the job of a chapraasi in any other cricket board, yet we are catering them like some untouchable ultra class VVIPS who are our only Messiahs. It’s as if Waqar n Misbah are sacked, Pakistan will be banned by ICC from all sorts of cricket. There will be floods and rains and earth quakes all over the country. We will run out of water gas electricity, all agricultural land will become barren.
 
Almost same guys were performing decentishly (Not very bad like now) under Mickey

Shows what's really going on in the dressing room with Misbah - Waqar in charge (where players have to deal with "Hamaare Zamaane main ...." type of stories , and with no clear guidelines or directions... Just Misbah-Waqar being their for their own Ego boosting)
 
Takeaways from this series cannot be expressed in a civilized manner. Ask me off this forum, and I will answer in Punjabi what my takeaways were.
 
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Takeaway is Pak cricket needs a complete overhaul.

It's so disappointing to watch Pakistan playing this kinda cricket. If proper actions are not taken, Pak may end up like BD-Srilanka.

Rivalries apart, I want Pak to perform better for the sake of cricket.
 
Pakistans best top 4 ever? How long have u been watching cricket?

I agree with him. I have been watching since mid 1990s. Our openers are as good as any other pair that we have tried, if not better and more reliable, since Amir and saeed. Babar at 3 is the best we can dream. Number 4 is though not good enough. My fond memories of number 4,5,6 go with yousuf, Inzi and YK etc. and honestly they were literally one of the best ever middle order ever in pak history. I believe what we clearly lack is a potent middle and lower middle order. And we desperately need reliable finishers and allrounders.

In fast bowling, only weak link is Haris. Hassan is not a new ball bowler, he is a first change bowler. And never ever in my memory was a time when we had really such a lacking spin attack. My fond memories are of Pakistan choking non Asian sides with spin. Doesn’t happen anymore.
 
Biggest takeaway from the 3-0 series win for England has been that England has legitimized their 50 over world cup win with this one. They truly are a superpower in this format and have an amazing bench strength. Especially when playing at home, they are very hard to beat now.

Like i said before, Pakistan losing has been no big deal. They are the bottom feeders and were rightfully put in their place by a superior team playing for a richer cricket board. Nothing unusual about it except that some of the English players were literally just county cricketers.
 
Biggest takeaway from the 3-0 series win for England has been that England has legitimized their 50 over world cup win with this one. They truly are a superpower in this format and have an amazing bench strength. Especially when playing at home, they are very hard to beat now.

Like i said before, Pakistan losing has been no big deal. They are the bottom feeders and were rightfully put in their place by a superior team playing for a richer cricket board. Nothing unusual about it except that some of the English players were literally just county cricketers.

They have not legitimized WC win. They performed poorly in the WC final, stupid ICC rules and Dharmasena (6 runs instead of 5) gifted them the trophy.
 
He is actually not that far off.

Both Fakhar and Imam are better than Amir Sohail. People forget how average Amir Sohail was - he was only looked half good because he was carried by Saeed Anwar.

Babar is infinitely better than Ijaz and probably on par with Zaheer Abbas.

Fakhar-Imam-Babar is certainly the best ODI top 3 Pakistan has ever had, although it says more about how poor our batting has been throughout the course of history than how good they are.
 
The only takeaways this time were the Tandoori Chicken, Lamb Biryani and Seekh Kebabs that helped me with coping with the disappointing performances by the team.
 
He is actually not that far off.

Both Fakhar and Imam are better than Amir Sohail. People forget how average Amir Sohail was - he was only looked half good because he was carried by Saeed Anwar.

Babar is infinitely better than Ijaz and probably on par with Zaheer Abbas.

Fakhar-Imam-Babar is certainly the best ODI top 3 Pakistan has ever had, although it says more about how poor our batting has been throughout the course of history than how good they are.

I guess it's true if you were born after 1992. What it shows is ridiculous lack of cricketing history or bias carried to extremes, to make the point that even Pakistan's "best-ever" are pathetic. Check out the 1975 World Cup ODI lineup, for example, with Sadiq, Majid, Zaheer, and Mushtaq as the top four. Sadiq was the weakest among those four, while Mushtaq alone I'd take over any contemporary Pakistani player. Do you really want to put the technical ability and flair of an Imam or Fakhar against Majid or Zaheer?
 
I guess it's true if you were born after 1992. What it shows is ridiculous lack of cricketing history or bias carried to extremes, to make the point that even Pakistan's "best-ever" are pathetic. Check out the 1975 World Cup ODI lineup, for example, with Sadiq, Majid, Zaheer, and Mushtaq as the top four. Sadiq was the weakest among those four, while Mushtaq alone I'd take over any contemporary Pakistani player. Do you really want to put the technical ability and flair of an Imam or Fakhar against Majid or Zaheer?

Mushtaq played a grand total of 10 ODI matches in his career and scores just 1 half century and 0 hundreds.

How does he even enter the discussion of the best Pakistani ODI batsmen? I think you need to look closer to home when you are talking about “bias”.

Majid Khan - very fine player no doubt, comfortably a better batsman than anyone in Pakistan at the moment except maybe Babar.

However, again, he just has 23 ODIs to his name with less than a thousand runs and only 1 hundred.

Zaheer - brilliant ODI player, probably slightly ahead of Babar and well ahead of Fakhar and Imam.

However, unfortunately for him, Mushtaq and Majid simply did not play enough ODI matches to be remotely considered for an all-time best Pakistan ODI top 3.

When you pick the best ever top 3, you have to do it based on actual performances and not potential or what could have been.

Maybe if Majid and Mushtaq played 100+ ODIs they would be well clear of Fakhar, Imam and Babar.

However, with 33 matches, less than a thousand runs and 1 hundred between them, they have absolutely no legacy in ODI cricket.
 
Real takeaway is that we are now finished as a cricketing nation and i shouldn't waste much time watching these brainless hacks
 
I agree with him. I have been watching since mid 1990s. Our openers are as good as any other pair that we have tried, if not better and more reliable, since Amir and saeed. Babar at 3 is the best we can dream. Number 4 is though not good enough. My fond memories of number 4,5,6 go with yousuf, Inzi and YK etc. and honestly they were literally one of the best ever middle order ever in pak history. I believe what we clearly lack is a potent middle and lower middle order. And we desperately need reliable finishers and allrounders.

In fast bowling, only weak link is Haris. Hassan is not a new ball bowler, he is a first change bowler. And never ever in my memory was a time when we had really such a lacking spin attack. My fond memories are of Pakistan choking non Asian sides with spin. Doesn’t happen anymore.

This.

A lot of messages on this thread is around the top 4 and its ridiculous to say they are our best top 4 ever. A little introspect would be helpful in here then. Lets compare these top 4 by each decade and see where we stand at.

1990 - Saeed Anwar/Aamir Sohail/Ijaz Ahmad/Salim Malik
Apart from Saeed Anwar the others weren't much substance in ODI cricket. Salim Malik and Sohail showed some potential but largely had unfulfilling careers.

2000 - Yasir Hameed/Taufeeq Umar/Younis Khan/Mohammad Yousuf
Again only Mohammad Yousuf had any credibility to talk about in here. Younis was disaster at no. 3 position and Yasir Hameed and Taufeeq Umar (even Farhat) were good for only minnow bashing at home.

2010 - Salman Butt/Nasir Jamshed/Mohammad Hafeez/Umar Akmal
This was a disaster top order, never had any decent start to talk about in here. The worst set of the lot.

Pakistan's success in the past has mainly been associated with lower order and all rounders, they have never really had as consistent a top order that we have at the moment. The biggest matchwinner in Pakistan limited overs cricket with bat has been Inzamam who used to bat at 5. We also relied heavily on likes of Razzaq/Afridi/Azhar Mahmood and even Wasim Akram in past to blast our way to decent totals in last 10 overs. This is the significant worrisome area at the moment where our lower order is useless and allrounder non-existent.

Now lets even have a look at our current top order and see how these top 4 would go down by time they retire.

Babar - Most likely to end up as best Pakistani batsman in limited overs (ever)
Rizwan - Most successful wicketkeeper bat and potentially a very good/humble leader. This guy will muster respect before he retires from everyone.
Fakhar - Hit and miss but would be known as our best matchwinner since Inzi. The guy has nerves of steel and when on song Pakistan wins 9/10 times
Imam - The weakest of the lot but would still have a record better than most of the names mentioned above.

Its not the top order batting that we should scrutinise, its the lower order ability that has been missing in recent series. Our lower order has consistently been failing and we would need to fix this problem.
 
One thing I will say is that our bowling doesn't get bashed around like this too often, this has started becoming quite common in recent times.

Lack of experience in my opinion.

Mohammad Amir and Wahab Riaz will be watching with glee, they will get selected as soon as Misbah and Waqar are sacked, I guarantee it.

To be fair, Wahab didn't really deserve to be dropped from ODIs after a decent 2019 WC and a few good games after that.
 
"Shadab and Faheem should only play test cricket in SENA together. Unfortunately they are not good enough or reliable enough for ODIs."

First time I've read someone is good enough for tests but not ODIs haha

BUT I hope you mean they do not have the right skill set for ODIs...which I disagree with. Faheem imo is an up and down cricketer and probably needs to be removed from the squad now, regardless of format. There must be a better seam bowling all rounder.

As for Shadab, he shouldn't be entirely discarded but is at the Steve Smith period in his career, not quite knowing his game, is he a batter or a bowler? Lower order hitter or grinder? Leggy or part timer? What he does have is athletic tools, great fitness and a drive to better himself so should be in the set up and developed into one thing, batsman or bowler, not both. It is the same choice Smith faced when he was about 24 years old.

Moving on, for Pakistan, the takeaway is simple: why can the batting and bowling units not perform well together? The Pakistan bowling was pretty good in the first 2 ODIs but went missing in the 3rd...while the batting decided to show up. This has been their biggest issue in ODI cricket for 20 years now. The coaches, all the backroom staff, the analysts etc need to put forward a 3 year plan on getting all the different cogs working together, because something is seriously wrong!
 
This.

A lot of messages on this thread is around the top 4 and its ridiculous to say they are our best top 4 ever. A little introspect would be helpful in here then. Lets compare these top 4 by each decade and see where we stand at.

1990 - Saeed Anwar/Aamir Sohail/Ijaz Ahmad/Salim Malik
Apart from Saeed Anwar the others weren't much substance in ODI cricket. Salim Malik and Sohail showed some potential but largely had unfulfilling careers.

2000 - Yasir Hameed/Taufeeq Umar/Younis Khan/Mohammad Yousuf
Again only Mohammad Yousuf had any credibility to talk about in here. Younis was disaster at no. 3 position and Yasir Hameed and Taufeeq Umar (even Farhat) were good for only minnow bashing at home.

2010 - Salman Butt/Nasir Jamshed/Mohammad Hafeez/Umar Akmal
This was a disaster top order, never had any decent start to talk about in here. The worst set of the lot.

Pakistan's success in the past has mainly been associated with lower order and all rounders, they have never really had as consistent a top order that we have at the moment. The biggest matchwinner in Pakistan limited overs cricket with bat has been Inzamam who used to bat at 5. We also relied heavily on likes of Razzaq/Afridi/Azhar Mahmood and even Wasim Akram in past to blast our way to decent totals in last 10 overs. This is the significant worrisome area at the moment where our lower order is useless and allrounder non-existent.

Now lets even have a look at our current top order and see how these top 4 would go down by time they retire.

Babar - Most likely to end up as best Pakistani batsman in limited overs (ever)
Rizwan - Most successful wicketkeeper bat and potentially a very good/humble leader. This guy will muster respect before he retires from everyone.
Fakhar - Hit and miss but would be known as our best matchwinner since Inzi. The guy has nerves of steel and when on song Pakistan wins 9/10 times
Imam - The weakest of the lot but would still have a record better than most of the names mentioned above.

Its not the top order batting that we should scrutinise, its the lower order ability that has been missing in recent series. Our lower order has consistently been failing and we would need to fix this problem.

The problem is this , it doesn’t matter how good our Top 4 batsmen are individually and their personal stats are definitely impressive with the current 4 , but collectively they fail consistently time and time again. They fail collectively when under pressure, they fail collectively when batting conditions are difficult or faced with challenging bowling. Scores of 20 odd for 3/4 are still common.

And sadly this has been the problem with Pakistan cricket team ever since I remember - apart from a brief period where Saeed Anwar and Amir Sohail were consistent as an opening pair , but even then they played as regularly as they could have as Saeed was injured every other series and Sohail had an argument with one of captain/coach/selector/PCB Chairman every few series and so he was dropped for one reason or another. And then you had Rameez or Zahid Fazal pairing up with one of Anwar/Sohail, or later Afridi and Wasti , Imran Nazir etc.

Anyway apart from Anwar/Sohail as a combo, on most days with any other pair the end result was the same - if one opener succeeded, the other was guaranteed to be out for a duck or under 10.

And even when both openers clicked like Anwar/Sohail, then Ijaz would come in and lay an egg. If somehow the top 3 gave a good foundation for a change, then the middle order guys even Inzamam and Malik would come and fail usually with a stupid run out.

And that pattern continues today even with much better top 4 then Pakistan have had in last 15-20 years.

Look back at same 90s era, where Australia had Hayden/Gilchrist/Ponting/Martyn as Top 4
or India had Tendulkar/Ganguly/Dravid/Laxman for instance in ODI cricket , these batsmen performed collectively as a unit , knew how to bat with each other and use their individual talents to contribute for the team.
 
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Who is it then?

Haha, Pakistan haven't had stable top 4 since a long time, esp the openers but that doesn't mean the current lot is the best, esp when they are losing left right and center, even against reserve teams.

I'll limit myself to 1992 and beyond, because i dont want to comment on players I haven't watched.

Sohail - Anwar - Ijaz - Salim Malik (90s)
Sohail-Anwar-Ijaz-Inzamam (90s)
Anwar - Afridi - Ijaz - Inzamam (90s)
Butt - K Akmal - Shoaib Malik - Yousuf (2005/06)
Butt - Afridi - Shoaib Malik - Inzamam (2004/06)
Hafeez - Akmal - Younus - Misbah (early 2010s)
Hafeez-Akmal-Younus-Malik (2010s)

All the above pairs can be argued to be better than the current top 4, at least in terms of team results and the impact they had, which is what matters.

Afridi played some brilliant match winning knocks at the top, very impactful.

Anwar multiple match winning knocks, his presence itself was intimidating for opposition, something Imam and Fakhar can't dream of atm.

Salman Butt, like him or not, still played more match winning knocks than Fakhar and Imam put together so far.

Malik and Ijaz both played multiple good knocks at No. 3, they are not as bad as people here think.

At No. 4, Inzi, Yousuf played many great knocks.

What happens is you look at any top 4 and at the time it appears as if they are the best, until that time passes and you realize how mediocre they were. This is what recency bias is.

I'm sure at one point people thought Jamshed - Hafeez or Hameed - Farhat were answer to all Pakistan's opening problems, but what happened after that? Umar Akmal was looked upon as a long term No. 4 in 2010/11 and then just faded away.

What have Zaman, Imam and Rizwan done so far in their ODI careers to be called as the best ever in those positions? In batting friendly era when 330 is the par score, they will obviously have slightly better numbers but we need to look at the relative impact to be called as "The best".

Babar I do agree has the numbers at No. 3 but even him is not exactly a match winner yet.
 
Haha, Pakistan haven't had stable top 4 since a long time, esp the openers but that doesn't mean the current lot is the best, esp when they are losing left right and center, even against reserve teams.

I'll limit myself to 1992 and beyond, because i dont want to comment on players I haven't watched.

Sohail - Anwar - Ijaz - Salim Malik (90s)
Sohail-Anwar-Ijaz-Inzamam (90s)
Anwar - Afridi - Ijaz - Inzamam (90s)
Butt - K Akmal - Shoaib Malik - Yousuf (2005/06)
Butt - Afridi - Shoaib Malik - Inzamam (2004/06)
Hafeez - Akmal - Younus - Misbah (early 2010s)
Hafeez-Akmal-Younus-Malik (2010s)

All the above pairs can be argued to be better than the current top 4, at least in terms of team results and the impact they had, which is what matters.

Afridi played some brilliant match winning knocks at the top, very impactful.

Anwar multiple match winning knocks, his presence itself was intimidating for opposition, something Imam and Fakhar can't dream of atm.

Salman Butt, like him or not, still played more match winning knocks than Fakhar and Imam put together so far.

Malik and Ijaz both played multiple good knocks at No. 3, they are not as bad as people here think.

At No. 4, Inzi, Yousuf played many great knocks.

What happens is you look at any top 4 and at the time it appears as if they are the best, until that time passes and you realize how mediocre they were. This is what recency bias is.

I'm sure at one point people thought Jamshed - Hafeez or Hameed - Farhat were answer to all Pakistan's opening problems, but what happened after that? Umar Akmal was looked upon as a long term No. 4 in 2010/11 and then just faded away.

What have Zaman, Imam and Rizwan done so far in their ODI careers to be called as the best ever in those positions? In batting friendly era when 330 is the par score, they will obviously have slightly better numbers but we need to look at the relative impact to be called as "The best".

Babar I do agree has the numbers at No. 3 but even him is not exactly a match winner yet.

If you take out Babar from this batting line up its not much better than Zimbabwe specially in foreign conditions where ball moves a bit. Rizwan can be good Number 5 but he is not a number 4.
 
The Positves-
Riz is a briliant WK and the best in the World
Babar has started to develop a power game based on yesterdays performance

The Negative- too many to go through but here is few-
The batting outside Babar and Riz isnt international standard.
The bowling isnt international Standard- we have bowlers who lack skill, control and intelligence.
The Fielding is awful and has been for decades.

Conclusion
Get rid of everyone from this team bar Babar, Riz, Saud( because he is new) and SSA. Play more domestic cricket because these players need more games. Strictly Enforce age limits on age group cricket because far too many players are getting into teams based on faked ages. Force each domestic franchise to employ fielding coaches and make fielding part of the head coaches performance evaluation. And play more against good teams( if its possible) to weed out the dross earlier.
 
Biggest takeaway from the 3-0 series win for England has been that England has legitimized their 50 over world cup win with this one. They truly are a superpower in this format and have an amazing bench strength. Especially when playing at home, they are very hard to beat now.

Like i said before, Pakistan losing has been no big deal. They are the bottom feeders and were rightfully put in their place by a superior team playing for a richer cricket board. Nothing unusual about it except that some of the English players were literally just county cricketers.

If you look at most of the performers in the series from England side almost all of them have played international cricket before and have been relatively successful. England ODI side is very strong even the 2nd team.

No team can beat England currently in ODIs in England. The only team that actually have troubled England in ICC tournament was Pakistan who has beaten them in both last two ICC tournaments in England that two in England which means you have a better chance of beating them if there is some pressure on them. But in less pressure bilaterals they have a great clear strategy and even their 2nd team number 10/11 can smash the ball with ease.

For Pakistan its embarrassing however 50 over WC is still far away and they need to learn and find players who can score quicker without getting out currently as shown by last match if they play conservatively early on they can protect wickets and go for it later but this strategy does not work against England who will go from ball 1 specially in bilateral.
 
My takeaways are:
- England limited overs cricket has come a LONG way and arguably the most advanced system in the world
- Pakistan fielding still sucks. Hasan Ali is still catching poorly
- Need a left arm spin allrounder asap. Saud Shakeel half decent bowling is evidence
- Low quality PSL cricket is hurting Pakistan cricket, where 'veterans' are scoring runs regularly
- Haris Rauf needs a season or 2 to get his length right. Shaheen needs a break from cricket ASAP
- Too many allrounders in the side. Faheem and Shadab should not play at the same time. Faheem needs to be dropped
- the main difference was James Vince being fed wide deliveries, and dropped catches

A left arm spinning all rounder like nawaz
 
Pakistan's ODI team will struggle a lot.

The whole system/mindset is outdated and these consistent losses are showing it.

A combination of not being good enough + no change in mentality.
 
We’re actually a lot worse than I thought.

Watching Pak struggle badly against England Z is soul destroying.
 
Key takeaway is that he who dares, wins.

England dared, they won.

But then this has been a key takeaway for the last 30 years, and we still keep picking selfish, low impact batsmen who steadily crawl their way to defeat. And we still keep picking 'promising' young bowlers who can chuck the ball in relatively fast, but have little control or bowling intelligence.
 
I’m actually stunned that England B was even able to win the series, let alone clean it up 3-0.

I totally understand the disappointment for Pakistan fans, however I would also like to suggest that the England reserve side, impressively led by Ben Stokes, played scintillating one-day cricket in every game of the series and would have beaten quite a few teams on this form.
 
I’m actually stunned that England B was even able to win the series, let alone clean it up 3-0.

I totally understand the disappointment for Pakistan fans, however I would also like to suggest that the England reserve side, impressively led by Ben Stokes, played scintillating one-day cricket in every game of the series and would have beaten quite a few teams on this form.
You have a point. I would have loved to see how this England team would have competed against India or NZ.
 
We’re actually a lot worse than I thought.

Watching Pak struggle badly against England Z is soul destroying.

We can never be worse than what we imagine.

We are a stunningly poor cricket team and I am glad that people are finally accepting it.

Been saying it for years for a reason.
 
They had one. They decided to get rid of him and bring in a nobody with one first class match experience.

Nevermind him, they had one of the best fielding coaches in the world in Steve Rixon. A guy whose presence actually had a noticeable effect on Pakistan's fielding. But PCB being PCB didn't pay him on time which was enough of a reason for him to pack up and leave.
 
A new set of players with actual talent and mental-strength would help more than a fielding coach.

I wouldn't bet on that. But a good fielding coach with a drill sergeant mindset could improve their fielding. Kinda like Rixon did until PCB, being the unprofessional board that they are stopped paying him on time.
 
Nevermind him, they had one of the best fielding coaches in the world in Steve Rixon. A guy whose presence actually had a noticeable effect on Pakistan's fielding. But PCB being PCB didn't pay him on time which was enough of a reason for him to pack up and leave.

Only the PCB would get rid of Steve Rixon and bring in Abdul Majeed. This is the level of third-class petty politics this management is up to.
 
Only the PCB would get rid of Steve Rixon and bring in Abdul Majeed. This is the level of third-class petty politics this management is up to.

They replaced Rixon with Grant Bradburn, but even he was a massive downgrade and didn't have the same reputation as Rixon. They tried to get Darren Berry, Rixon's protege who worked at IU too, but he didn't come because of PCB's obviously poor reputation. Abdul Majeed does not sound like a proper coach. Seems like someone they just picked up from the domestic circuit to fill the spot and help them with drills.
 
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The biggest take away is that there is a gulf that's there between the top 4 and the rest.

And that gulf cannot be closed by changing coaches or media manager. It can only done by upgrading the standards of grassroot and domestic cricket to the level of the top sides. Might sound like a boring solution, but it's the reality. Indian cricket improved only because it upgraded its domestic cricket to the level of the Sheffield Shield and county cricket.
 
Steve Rixon served for a couple of years. Surely he had an assistant working with him and he imparted his knowledge and experience at the NCA. How come no one was able to replicate his methods?
 
Steve Rixon served for a couple of years. Surely he had an assistant working with him and he imparted his knowledge and experience at the NCA. How come no one was able to replicate his methods?

Do fielders forget how to field when the coach changes? This nonsense about the coach going and the fielding deteriorating has to be rubbish. Players should know what their weaknesses are, and should be working on with the help of their domestic teams. You don't suddenly learn or forget to field.
 
Do fielders forget how to field when the coach changes? This nonsense about the coach going and the fielding deteriorating has to be rubbish. Players should know what their weaknesses are, and should be working on with the help of their domestic teams. You don't suddenly learn or forget to field.

I believe there is a strong correlation b/w fitness, agility and your fielding. Whenever Pakistani players are fit, it reflects on their fielding as well and when they let themselves go it reflects on the field as well
 
I believe there is a strong correlation b/w fitness, agility and your fielding. Whenever Pakistani players are fit, it reflects on their fielding as well and when they let themselves go it reflects on the field as well

No doubt there is a correlation between the 2. But as I said and I will repeat, fielding has no short solution. There is much that has to be done but most importantly, make the players want to improve their fielding because fielding is an attitude. My son was a poor fielder and he decided enough was enough and he spent hours practicing and became a top fielder. It did take at least year if not more but it was worth the effort
 
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