The concept of Hur-ul-Ain in Islam: is this not objectification of women?

[SalimBhai]

You asked me to give you a hadeeth and I said you will come up with the excuse. I have you one and now you say it’s weak. Many Muslims will disagree other you. There are countless Maulana sahib who will disagree with you. Obviously I don’t believe in it. Just like I don’t believe in hoors either . It clear to me that all this was written by a bunch of men. Any one
Orr time I respect everyone’s beliefs. That’s your right. But this is a message board and we are discussing all sorts of things. Nobody should be offended if others don’t agree.

 

[Justcrazy]

You mentioned how great islám is for women and gender justice I mentioned that if that was the case then the bottom half of counties ( in gender inequality index ) should not be Muslim majority countries.

Islam is great or not , how will you judge that unless all the shariah laws are implemented . If you pick and choose in implying that , then you are not giving it a fair chance.

Secondly , again I say you completely ignored my previous point . I mentioned that Islam has to be compared to a religion , since it is a religion , not a country.

Now , if you think other religions have given women more rights , mention that , I will answer.

 

[SalimBhai]

The Scarlet Witch from Marvel. If we can imagine multiverses then why is it so hard to fathom the concept of a Jannah where one will be happy, be it man or woman

There is some scientific evidence before one of them. The other is just a story in a religious book. Same book that also believes in a flying horse

 

[RexRex]

Have you read the above posts ? If not can you kindly show me where it is mentioned that women will be given 72 ?

Once you show me hopefully , I will be happy to proceed further and tell you the reason behind that.

Also , you have asked me two questions now , I will take this opportunity to ask one , do you believe in Paradise?

The number doesn't really matter whether its a dozen of 72 or 4000. I'm going by what I've just read through this three page thread. The majority of muslim posters here seem to agree and don't dispute that men get mutiple hoors in heaven if they lead a good life.

As for me believing in Paradise, I kinda do in a vague sense, not sure about the specifics of what it involves.

 

[SalimBhai]

The Scarlet Witch from Marvel. If we can imagine multiverses then why is it so hard to fathom the concept of a Jannah where one will be happy, be it man or woman

In one scientist from all over the world are looking into it, working countless hours on it. The other is just a a story .

 

[Justcrazy]

You asked me to give you a hadeeth and I said you will come up with the excuse. I have you one and now you say it’s weak. Many Muslims will disagree other you. There are countless Maulana sahib who will disagree with you. Obviously I don’t believe in it. Just like I don’t believe in hoors either . It clear to me that all this was written by a bunch of men. Any one
Orr time I respect everyone’s beliefs. That’s your right. But this is a message board and we are discussing all sorts of things. Nobody should be offended if others don’t agree.

If the hadeeth is weak , it is weak , this is not an excuse but fact. Islam is in books not what me or other Muslims believe in.

There are countless things which humans can believe in , but those are opinions NOT facts unless backed with evidence.

Criticism with evidence is not criticism but troling , and that is what you have always done. Making baseless allegations is not discussion.

 

[SalimBhai]

Islam is great or not , how will you judge that unless all the shariah laws are implemented . If you pick and choose in implying that , then you are not giving it a fair chance.

Secondly , again I say you completely ignored my previous point . I mentioned that Islam has to be compared to a religion , since it is a religion , not a country.

Now , if you think other religions have given women more rights , mention that , I will answer.

Ok so you agree that women in Muslim countries are at the bottom of the pool at this moment right?? And the reason they are at the bottom is because out the 55 Muslim majority counties none could get the sharia right. Did I read that right?? So you do agree at this moment muslim women in Muslim majority coke tires have a bad deal ??? Yes or no? Christianity or Judaism are in the same boat as Islam. Majority of the countries are Christian by name only. They have secular laws , hence the women are spared. I think the best places for a women are Scandinavian countries , totally secular. . I live in nyc. We have a big Jewish population. In hasidic neighborhoods the women also have very low standard of living. They have the same issues like Saudi , Kuwait, Pakistan. Secular Jews on the other hand have the same stats like the rest of the New Yorkers. Plenty of books written in this subject. A believe a few films and docs are also on Netflix and Amazon prime regarding this issue in hasidic communities .

 

[Justcrazy]

The number doesn't really matter whether its a dozen of 72 or 4000. I'm going by what I've just read through this three page thread. The majority of muslim posters here seem to agree and don't dispute that men get mutiple hoors in heaven if they lead a good life.

As for me believing in Paradise, I kinda do in a vague sense, not sure about the specifics of what it involves.

I have not denied the existence of hoors , the point is that it is exxageratted . There are many things stated about paradise. Paradise is in different dimensions altogether , and cannot be comphrehended here on earth. To make it as a big issue is not resonable.

Unless we go there we cannot judge it , because it is something we cannot see or feel right now , whatever you or me or anyone else writes here will not be accurate description.

Muslim and Bukhari are considered as benchmark for hadeeth , and all hadeeth in them with chain of narrations are considered accurate . Those mention that every human
in Paradise will have two wives. Apart from that they would have hoors , who would be different to human species.

That is how God has made Paradise. What we need to understand here is that Men and women are two different individuals , they are equal in most of the things , but not completely identical. Other wise why Men do not get pregnant or why there are different olympics for men and women .

If you believe in Paradise , do you believe that Paradise has a creator.

 

[SalimBhai]

If the hadeeth is weak , it is weak , this is not an excuse but fact. Islam is in books not what me or other Muslims believe in.

There are countless things which humans can believe in , but those are opinions NOT facts unless backed with evidence.

Criticism with evidence is not criticism but troling , and that is what you have always done. Making baseless allegations is not discussion.

I am giving you evidence from United Nations on women status in Muslim countries. I have provided links before many times. So I don’t know what you are on about. It’s usually the religious type who are faith based. I am very evidence based person

 

[Justcrazy]

Ok so you agree that women in Muslim countries are at the bottom of the pool at this moment right?? And the reason they are at the bottom is because out the 55 Muslim majority counties none could get the sharia right. Did I read that right?? So you do agree at this moment muslim women in Muslim majority coke tires have a bad deal ??? Yes or no? Christianity or Judaism are in the same boat as Islam. Majority of the countries are Christian by name only. They have secular laws , hence the women are spared. I think the best places for a women are Scandinavian countries , totally secular. . I live in nyc. We have a big Jewish population. In hasidic neighborhoods the women also have very low standard of living. They have the same issues like Saudi , Kuwait, Pakistan. Secular Jews on the other hand have the same stats like the rest of the New Yorkers. Plenty of books written in this subject. A believe a few films and docs are also on Netflix and Amazon prime regarding this issue in hasidic communities .

I have not agreed to that because who is giving those ranks and what kind of parameters.

Pakistan is a Muslim Majority country , you can buy alcohol freely there , is that allowed according to shariah ? That answers your next point.

So , you are saying that Judaisiam , Islam , Christianity are not good for women , but secularism is the way to go ? Is that your point. Correct me If I did not understand you.

 

[SalimBhai]

I have not denied the existence of hoors , the point is that it is exxageratted . There are many things stated about paradise. Paradise is in different dimensions altogether , and cannot be comphrehended here on earth. To make it as a big issue is not resonable.

Unless we go there we cannot judge it , because it is something we cannot see or feel right now , whatever you or me or anyone else writes here will not be accurate description.

Muslim and Bukhari are considered as benchmark for hadeeth , and all hadeeth in them with chain of narrations are considered accurate . Those mention that every human
in Paradise will have two wives. Apart from that they would have hoors , who would be different to human species.

That is how God has made Paradise. What we need to understand here is that Men and women are two different individuals , they are equal in most of the things , but not completely identical. Other wise why Men do not get pregnant or why there are different olympics for men and women .

If you believe in Paradise , do you believe that Paradise has a creator.

You are accusing one post above about lack of evidence ( also not true because I can provide the links again) and this whole post lacks any evidence. It’s totally faith based. And you believe it for only one reason . You were born into this religion and were told what to believe. That’s it.

 

[Justcrazy]

I am giving you evidence from United Nations on women status in Muslim countries. I have provided links before many times. So I don’t know what you are on about. It’s usually the religious type who are faith based. I am very evidence based person

In matters of hadeeth , we look into hadeeth scholar , not UN .

When you are sick you rely on doctors , not a carpenter.

 

[SalimBhai]

I have not agreed to that because who is giving those ranks and what kind of parameters.

Pakistan is a Muslim Majority country , you can buy alcohol freely there , is that allowed according to shariah ? That answers your next point.

So , you are saying that Judaisiam , Islam , Christianity are not good for women , but secularism is the way to go ? Is that your point. Correct me If I did not understand you.

You actually did agree with me. You said the status of women is where it is because sharia is not implemented. What does buying a can of beer have to do with women’s status. You can buy beer in Oslo. Why are the women in a much better condition there then?

 

[SalimBhai]

In matters of hadeeth , we look into hadeeth scholar , not UN .

When you are sick you rely on doctors , not a carpenter.

When I need advice about evolution I ask a biologist not a Maulana sahib, when I need advice on the universe , physics and so on I ask a physicists not a Maulana sahib.

 

[Justcrazy]

You are accusing one post above about lack of evidence ( also not true because I can provide the links again) and this whole post lacks any evidence. It’s totally faith based. And you believe it for only one reason . You were born into this religion and were told what to believe. That’s it.

If you keep changing your questions after every post , who can answer you ?

 

[Justcrazy]

When I need advice about evolution I ask a biologist not a Maulana sahib, when I need advice on the universe , physics and so on I ask a physicists not a Maulana sahib.

Yes , you ask a physicist , when did I say you consult a Moulana ? But is this thread about physics ?

 

[SalimBhai]

If you keep changing your questions after every post , who can answer you ?

How so? I see you are dodging all the questions. Please be more specific

 

[SalimBhai]

Yes , you ask a physicist , when did I say you consult a Moulana ? But is this thread about physics ?

I look at UN reports when I am looking at stats around the world in different categories . Not at a hadeeth scholar.

 

[Justcrazy]

You actually did agree with me. You said the status of women is where it is because sharia is not implemented. What does buying a can of beer have to do with women’s status. You can buy beer in Oslo. Why are the women in a much better condition there then?

You are a confused peron . I said that unless shariah is implemented properly , how can you judge between life inside shariah and life outside shariah ? First you need to implement that , then you can compare them and arrive at a conclusion.

 

[Justcrazy]

I look at UN reports when I am looking at stats around the world I’m dog feet categories. Not at a hadeeth scholar.

You mentioned that post relating to weakness of hadeeth , that is what I said you were doing wrong . In matters of hadeeth a hadeeth scholar can answer , Not UN ?

 

[SalimBhai]

You are a confused peron . I said that unless shariah is implemented properly , how can you judge between life inside shariah and life outside shariah ? First you need to implement that , then you can compare them and arrive at a conclusion.

eem very confused.
It’s better you go implement this sharia and make something of your societies and when they have reached a respectable place in society then come back and talk about how great your religion is. At this moment you are a student who has failed in each subject and is bragging and shouting how great you are and everyone should be like you

 

[Justcrazy]

eem very confused.
It’s better you go implement this sharia and make something of your societies and when they have reached a respectable place in society then come back and talk about how great your religion is. At this moment you are a student who has failed in each subject and is bragging and shouting how great you are and everyone should be like you

I never claimed that I am going to enforce shariah in any society . But you claimed that in certain socities women are treated better than Islam . How can you judge between both when one is not given an opportunity.

In an examination there are several students , X is absent on the day of exam , and you are claiming that another Y who gave exam is better than X .

As far as Islam is great or not , if you think Islam is wrong , then tell me which religion is right , if all religions ae wrong , then is secularism correct accorfing to you .

You need to tell what is right , then only you can say something else is wrong. Unless you have a parameter to judge , how can you claim something to be right or wrong.

 

[SalimBhai]

So there is no sharia according to you. Hence all these Muslims countries can’t be judged. And you don’t want to enforce sharia either. So what’s your point.

 

[SalimBhai]

You seem very confused.

 

[SalimBhai]

I have not agreed to that because who is giving those ranks and what kind of parameters.

Pakistan is a Muslim Majority country , you can buy alcohol freely there , is that allowed according to shariah ? That answers your next point.

So , you are saying that Judaisiam , Islam , Christianity are not good for women , but secularism is the way to go ? Is that your point. Correct me If I did not understand you.

What does buying a beer have to do with the terrible status of women in Pakistan!!!

 

[Justcrazy]

So there is no sharia according to you. Hence all these Muslims countries can’t be judged. And you don’t want to enforce sharia either. So what’s your point.

Kindly make one comment at a time , multiple comments you are asking multiple questions.

There is aspects of shariah law in a lot of countries , but unless it is implemented completely you cannot get any results.

If you have all the parts in a car , and some parts are missing , will the car work ?

How I am supposed to enforce it ? Am I the authority to do so.

In Pakistan there are hundreds of things wrong , but what does religion have to do with that. In US there are several instances of Gun Crime , can we say it is because of secularism or capatalism ?

 

[SalimBhai]

Kindly make one comment at a time , multiple comments you are asking multiple questions.

There is aspects of shariah law in a lot of countries , but unless it is implemented completely you cannot get any results.

If you have all the parts in a car , and some parts are missing , will the car work ?

Pakistan

How I am supposed to enforce it ? Am I the authority to do so.

In Pakistan there are hundreds of things wrong , but what does religion have to do with that. In US there are several instances of Gun Crime , can we say it is because of secularism or capatalism ?

Pakistan has many things wrong , not all are related to religion. Many are
1: population control. Pakistan has no family planning policy. Why?? The religious mafia will not hear of it.
2: discrimination against minorities has a religious factor
3: the status of women has a religious factor.
And on and on.
I don’t think anyone has implied the gun violence in America is due to capitalism or secularism. The reasons are abundance of guns, broken families, not enough mental health help and so on.

I have been hearing it for years and my parents have been hearing it for years about sharia and how it’s not properly implemented . 55 Muslim majority countries have failed at it. Maybe it’s the sharia . Rest of the world is going along lovely without sharia.

Also what does buying a beer in Pakistan have to do with the terrible status of women in Pakistan

 

[MenInG]

Back to topic please.

 

[Justcrazy]

Pakistan has many things wrong , not all are related to religion. Many are
1: population control. Pakistan has no family planning policy. Why?? The religious mafia will not hear of it.
2: discrimination against minorities has a religious factor
3: the status of women has a religious factor.
And on and on.
I don’t think anyone has implied the gun violence in America is due to capitalism or secularism. The reasons are abundance of guns, broken families, not enough mental health help and so on.

I have been hearing it for years and my parents have been hearing it for years about sharia and how it’s not properly implemented . 55 Muslim majority countries have failed at it. Maybe it’s the sharia . Rest of the world is going along lovely without sharia.

Also what does buying a beer in Pakistan have to do with the terrible status of women in Pakistan

All the above points have NO connection with religion. If you think it is connected, kindly elaborate on that , instead of just making statements.

If you claim that the rest of the countries are going on well without shariah laws , you are wrong. There are issues in almost all countries.

You said that reasons for Gun Violence in US is because of the abundance of Guns , broken homes , not enough mental health. Why are these things happening ? America is not a Muslim country , No shariah laws , a western power , more developed than Muslim countries?

Secular laws decided by legislatures have been implemented here and yet these problems, where as in those Muslim countries also legislature laws have been implemented. There also you see several problems.

Shariah laws not implemented anywhere , but it must be bad , without implementing it has become bad , just because You hate Islam, what a great logic you have.

 

[SalimBhai]

All the above points have NO connection with religion. If you think it is connected, kindly elaborate on that , instead of just making statements.

If you claim that the rest of the countries are going on well without shariah laws , you are wrong. There are issues in almost all countries.

You said that reasons for Gun Violence in US is because of the abundance of Guns , broken homes , not enough mental health. Why are these things happening ? America is not a Muslim country , No shariah laws , a western power , more developed than Muslim countries?

Secular laws decided by legislatures have been implemented here and yet these problems, where as in those Muslim countries also legislature laws have been implemented. There also you see several problems.

Shariah laws not implemented anywhere , but it must be bad , without implementing it has become bad , just because You hate Islam, what a great logic you have.

You are just blind. Nothing else that can be said unfortunately.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

I believe Salim Bhai has a good point here. How is it that half of humanity aka women have their fate in heaven ignored by the holy books. Do they not count ?

The combination of bigotry and idiocy by some non-believers in this thread is quite interesting and funny too.

These supposedly MEN are wanting to decide what's a good deal for WOMEN while no atheist actually cares to ask the practicing and pious Muslim WOMEN as to what do THEY want?

I guess there is only one reply by a Muslim female in this thread - but how conveniently it was shrugged off by the same hypocrites who are trying to root for a women in a place (Heaven) which they believe does not exist to begin with.

As a practicing Muslim woman, who also happens to be a sister, wife and a mother, I feel just fine, thank you.

Islam is clear about everything, the rewards and the punishments, this life and the afterlife and everything in between. Why would I feel "disrespected" by something that serves as a motivation and/or deterrent to me especially when I have yet to experience that something physically..?

 

[Abel Reames]

You are just blind. Nothing else that can be said unfortunately.

To paraphrase Johnathon Swift - you cannot reason/logic a person out of a position he/she did not reason themselves into in the first place.

At best theists develop their belief via birth, culture, tradition and identity at worse through indoctrination and brainwashing.

To paraphrase someone else - sometimes people hold a core belief that is very strong. When they are presented with evidence that works against that belief, the new evidence cannot be accepted. It would create a feeling that is extremely uncomfortable called - cognitive dissonance.

And because it is so important to protect the core belief they will rationalize, ignore and even deny everything that doesn't fit in with the core belief.

In this thread the only people who seem to be critically thinking is the OP and Happywarsfan (hope I got the moniker correct). A discussion is possible with them.

 

[Champ_Pal]

All the above points have NO connection with religion. If you think it is connected, kindly elaborate on that , instead of just making statements.

If you claim that the rest of the countries are going on well without shariah laws , you are wrong. There are issues in almost all countries.

You said that reasons for Gun Violence in US is because of the abundance of Guns , broken homes , not enough mental health. Why are these things happening ? America is not a Muslim country , No shariah laws , a western power , more developed than Muslim countries?

Secular laws decided by legislatures have been implemented here and yet these problems, where as in those Muslim countries also legislature laws have been implemented. There also you see several problems.

Shariah laws not implemented anywhere , but it must be bad , without implementing it has become bad , just because You hate Islam, what a great logic you have.

20% of Americans are seeking mental counselling and 15% of the population are on prescription drugs as treatment. Doctors are quick to put patients on drugs for any sort of mental disorder. Combine this with the 2nd amendment, it is a recipe for disaster. Majority of people own guns and they are not scared to use them for their grievances whatever they may be.
You see that in Europe, Gun violence is far less than Americans even though they are far more liberal than Americans.

There is no perfect system. Every system comes with its own baggage. The western style of system lets people make amendments to the existing laws. Needs of the society change with time. Religious laws are rigid and cannot be changed. That is the problem with any religious law.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Pakistan has many things wrong , not all are related to religion. Many are
1: population control. Pakistan has no family planning policy. Why?? The religious mafia will not hear of it.
2: discrimination against minorities has a religious factor
3: the status of women has a religious factor.
And on and on.
I don’t think anyone has implied the gun violence in America is due to capitalism or secularism. The reasons are abundance of guns, broken families, not enough mental health help and so on.

I have been hearing it for years and my parents have been hearing it for years about sharia and how it’s not properly implemented . 55 Muslim majority countries have failed at it. Maybe it’s the sharia . Rest of the world is going along lovely without sharia.

Also what does buying a beer in Pakistan have to do with the terrible status of women in Pakistan

Pak has an ever increasing population mainly because people believe most types contraception causes permanent sterility.

India and China have very high population too. Are Muslims to blame for that too?

And what about anti vaxers?

 

[SalimBhai]

Pak has an ever increasing population mainly because people believe most types contraception causes permanent sterility.

India and China have very high population too. Are Muslims to blame for that too?

And what about anti vaxers?

China and india have addressed the population issue. Pakistan can’t address the population. Why?? The religious right don’t want to have that discussion. I think you just made my point. Thanks

 

[BunnyRabbit]

China and india have addressed the population issue. Pakistan can’t address the population. Why?? The religious right don’t want to have that discussion. I think you just made my point. Thanks

If you wish to believe that, good for you.

 

[Justcrazy]

You are just blind. Nothing else that can be said unfortunately.

So , that means you have no reply .

First you make fun of Islam by showing a weak hadeeth.
Then you make fun of shariah law , and say that Muslim countries are backward , but cannot answer when I raised issues that are in so called developed countries , which do not have Muslim majority .

You have this habbit of jumping in all Islamic threads , and making false allegations against Islam , and when caught you say other person is blind .

 

[Justcrazy]

20% of Americans are seeking mental counselling and 15% of the population are on prescription drugs as treatment. Doctors are quick to put patients on drugs for any sort of mental disorder. Combine this with the 2nd amendment, it is a recipe for disaster. Majority of people own guns and they are not scared to use them for their grievances whatever they may be.
You see that in Europe, Gun violence is far less than Americans even though they are far more liberal than Americans.

There is no perfect system. Every system comes with its own baggage. The western style of system lets people make amendments to the existing laws. Needs of the society change with time. Religious laws are rigid and cannot be changed. That is the problem with any religious law.

All the things you wrote giving reasons for the issue in America is well appreciated , but does not change the fact that the issue is there.

If religious laws are rigid , the secular laws are not , why they are not changing to move towards perfection ?

Secondly , what religiuous laws of Islam should be changed. Make a thread on that , and let us have an discussion on it , whether those laws should be changed will benefit the society more or not . I would be waiting for you to start that thread and prove your point because this thread should not be used for discussing a different topic.

 

[Justcrazy]

China and india have addressed the population issue. Pakistan can’t address the population. Why?? The religious right don’t want to have that discussion. I think you just made my point. Thanks

If India had addressed that issue how come it crossed China as most populous state?

 

[SalimBhai]

If India had addressed that issue how come it crossed China as most populous state?

Have you looked that indias projections for the future? It will decline in the coming future. There is a great article by the nobel prize economist amartya sent about all this. He talks about how China progresses in the last 30 years and india did not as much. China had a 1 child policy for over 30 years and when the time came for the upswing for the country they jumped on. India had not addressed the issue back then and missed out on it. It has addressed it and is on its way to match China in the decades to come. Pakistan has no policy. Will be 440 million soon. Who will employ them? Who wil educate them? Do we have enough land and water for them???No. Why has the issue not been addressed? The religious right will not have any of it.

 

[SalimBhai]

So , that means you have no reply .

First you make fun of Islam by showing a weak hadeeth.
Then you make fun of shariah law , and say that Muslim countries are backward , but cannot answer when I raised issues that are in so called developed countries , which do not have Muslim majority .

You have this habbit of jumping in all Islamic threads , and making false allegations against Islam , and when caught you say other person is blind .

I have answered you multiple times you just don’t get it or refuse to get it. I think a poster above said it very well about you. “ you cannot reason/logic a person out of a position he/she did not reason themselves into in the first place. “.

 

[SalimBhai]

Also I have asked multiple times and you have not answered a simple question.
What does buying beer freely on Pakistan have to do with the terrible status of them in society of Pakistan?????

 

[Justcrazy]

Have you looked that indias projections for the future? It will decline in the coming future. There is a great article by the nobel prize economist amartya sent about all this. He talks about how China progresses in the last 30 years and india did not as much. China had a 1 child policy for over 30 years and when the time came for the upswing for the country they jumped on. India had not addressed the issue back then and missed out on it. It has addressed it and is on its way to match China in the decades to come. Pakistan has no policy. Will be 440 million soon. Who will employ them? Who wil educate them? Do we have enough land and water for them???No. Why has the issue not been addressed? The religious right will not have any of it.

While discussing or debating you are showing what may happen in future ? Talking about future is a fact for you ?

Also , kindly answer me why you are equating Pakistan with Islam ? Pakistan is not an Islamic country , I can point out to you ten things which Pakistan is doing is against Islam.

 

[Justcrazy]

I have answered you multiple times you just don’t get it or refuse to get it. I think a poster above said it very well about you. “ you cannot reason/logic a person out of a position he/she did not reason themselves into in the first place. “.

You have NOT answered anything. That person did not quote me , so I have nothing to say , what he said is completely irrelevant .

He has quoted from a certain person that is all. If he is blaming theists for having core beliefs , that is same for atheists , they also have core beliefs.

 

[SalimBhai]

While discussing or debating you are showing what may happen in future ? Talking about future is a fact for you ?

Also , kindly answer me why you are equating Pakistan with Islam ? Pakistan is not an Islamic country , I can point out to you ten things which Pakistan is doing is against Islam.

It’s called projecting. It’s done in economics . Projections on future population have been very accurate so far. You are also talking about the future also of ifs and buts… when the true sharia arrives. You are predicting once sharia arrives all the ills of the world will be taken care off. Any past data to back it up….. also please one simple answer I asked you in the previous thread

 

[Justcrazy]

Also I have asked multiple times and you have not answered a simple question.
What does buying beer freely on Pakistan have to do with the terrible status of them in society of Pakistan?????

That point shows that Pakistan does not have Islamic shariah implemented. Unless something is implemented there is no way you can judge that law. To judge something you need to have it in tangible form otherwise it is merely conjecture.

 

[SalimBhai]

How does buying a beer affect a women’s status. Can you just explain that ??simple question

 

[Justcrazy]

It’s called projecting. It’s done in economics . Projections on future population have been very accurate so far. You are also talking about the future also of ifs and buts… when the true sharia arrives. You are predicting once sharia arrives all the ills of the world will be taken care off. Any past data to back it up….. also please one simple answer I asked you in the previous thread

Who has made that projection ? Because I have not seen any projections which says Indian population will shirnk .

No , Islam does not talk on ifs and buts , Islam is certain. I no where saying all ills of the world will be eliminated , that is NOT possible. It will be controlled. Because man made laws have weakness, which shariah does not have.

Shariah laws have punishments , that shows that everything will not be 100 %. Islam is a practical religion which has solutions for practical issues. But how people approach it depends on a human. It is there to provide a better environment for individuals , and also proper punishments to deal with transgressors.

 

[saeedhk]

If you wish to believe that, good for you.

I think you are very misinformed. In 2019, former PM Khan held a symposium on population control to control controls Pakistan's exploding population. However, after the symposium, there was widespread outrage in Pakistan with many calling Khan 'an American agent' who is on a mission to reduce Muslim population. Clerics said that everyone should have as many kids as possible since it is a hadeeth telling Muslims to procreate as much as possible. This outrage prompted Khan to drop all population control initiatives.

Do you know Mufti Tariq Masood? Half of his sermon videos are on having plentiful of children so that ''Islam ghalib a sa kay". He regularly tells his followers that if they engage in family planning, they are sinning. He says that everyone should have 4 wives and as many children as possible regardless of their financial status because ''rizq Allah data hai.'' The cleric himself has 3 wives and 19 kids. He laughingly tells the audience that he sometimes forgets the names of some of his children. Very sick and twisted!

I feel you have never lived in Pakistan nor understand the country thoroughly.

 

[Justcrazy]

How does buying a beer affect a women’s status. Can you just explain that ??simple question

I did not say anywhere that sentence.

I said that beer is not allowed in Islam , but in Pakistan you get it freely , like this there are multiple things which are against islam done in Pakistan , then how can you blame shariah laws for state of Pakistan? You will also agree that killing of innocent people or robbery or corruption are reason for a lot of issues in asian countries .

Does Islam anywhere promote them ? If Islam promotes them , then your point is justified , if Islam does not , then you cannot equate Pakistan to Islam.

 

[saeedhk]

Who has made that projection ? Because I have not seen any projections which says Indian population will shirnk .

No , Islam does not talk on ifs and buts , Islam is certain. I no where saying all ills of the world will be eliminated , that is NOT possible. It will be controlled. Because man made laws have weakness, which shariah does not have.

Shariah laws have punishments , that shows that everything will not be 100 %. Islam is a practical religion which has solutions for practical issues. But how people approach it depends on a human. It is there to provide a better environment for individuals , and also proper punishments to deal with transgressors.

India's population is on a downward trend. Their fertility and population growth rates are decreasing quickly. While our population growth has increased, contrary to regional and international trends, as revealed by the latest census. 250,000 babies are born in Punjab in 10 days!

 

[Justcrazy]

I think you are very misinformed. In 2019, former PM Khan held a symposium on population control to control controls Pakistan's exploding population. However, after the symposium, there was widespread outrage in Pakistan with many calling Khan 'an American agent' who is on a mission to reduce Muslim population. Clerics said that everyone should have as many kids as possible since it is a hadeeth telling Muslims to procreate as much as possible. This outrage prompted Khan to drop all population control initiatives.

Do you know Mufti Tariq Masood? Half of his sermon videos are on having plentiful of children so that ''Islam ghalib a sa kay". He regularly tells his followers that if they engage in family planning, they are sinning. He says that everyone should have 4 wives and as many children as possible regardless of their financial status because ''rizq Allah data hai.'' The cleric himself has 3 wives and 19 kids. He laughingly tells the audience that he sometimes forgets the names of some of his children. Very sick and twisted!

I feel you have never lived in Pakistan nor understand the country thoroughly.

Firstly Tariq Masood is a fool , you have heard him very less , if you hear him more , you can make your own Youtube channel of jokes through him. He will give you lot of material.

The issue with his audience i is that they never ask any counter questions.

In Hadeeth we find that companions practiced birth control.

That is why I have so many times in this thread that equating Islam with Pakistan is a blunder . One is a country , other is a religion. Religion is what we get from scriptures .

 

[SalimBhai]

Who has made that projection ? Because I have not seen any projections which says Indian population will shirnk .

No , Islam does not talk on ifs and buts , Islam is certain. I no where saying all ills of the world will be eliminated , that is NOT possible. It will be controlled. Because man made laws have weakness, which shariah does not have.

Shariah laws have punishments , that shows that everything will not be 100 %. Islam is a practical religion which has solutions for practical issues. But how people approach it depends on a human. It is there to provide a better environment for individuals , and also proper punishments to deal with transgressors.

Under the UN's “medium variant” projection, a middle-of-the-road estimate, India's population will surpass 1.5 billion people by the end of this decade and will continue to slowly increase until 2064, when it will peak at 1.7 billion people. It took China more than 30 years to control its population. . Will india the same more or less

 

[Justcrazy]

India's population is on a downward trend. Their fertility and population growth rates are decreasing quickly. While our population growth has increased, contrary to regional and international trends, as revealed by the latest census. 250,000 babies are born in Punjab in 10 days!

Post number 212 , kindly read , if you have further questions , you can ask.

Thank You.

 

[Justcrazy]

Under the UN's “medium variant” projection, a middle-of-the-road estimate, India's population will surpass 1.5 billion people by the end of this decade and will continue to slowly increase until 2064, when it will peak at 1.7 billion people. It took China more than 30 years to control its population. . Will india the same more or less

1.5 billion , is a small population according to you ? Do you think all the people In India are living a luxuorious life ? Everyone is employed? Do you how many villages in india there are which do not have access to electricity or proper water or proper wash room facilities.

Also , do you know in India how many female children are killed in the wombs? I do not think India is ruled by shariah ?

I do not blame Hinduism for these , the way you blame islam for issues in Pakistan.

 

[SalimBhai]

Post number 212 , kindly read , if you have further questions , you can ask.

Thank You.

How do you see post numbers on cell platform

 

[SalimBhai]

1.5 billion , is a small population according to you ? Do you think all the people In India are living a luxuorious life ? Everyone is employed? Do you how many villages in india there are which do not have access to electricity or proper water or proper wash room facilities.

Also , do you know in India how many female children are killed in the wombs? I do not think India is ruled by shariah ?

I do not blame Hinduism for these , the way you blame islam for issues in Pakistan.

I have to ask how old you are?
1: indias population will be declining soon as they have tackled the issue. It will take decades but it will happen. There are reports by UN on it. Who said people in indía are living a luxurious life? Please stop making things up. I am not Indian not saying india is a great place. I am saying Indians have had this discussion as a nation and decided to address the issue. Pakistan has not due to the religious right. This is not that hard to understand.

 

[Justcrazy]

How do you see post numbers on cell platform

Sorry , I have no answer , I always access this forum on chromebook , because I do not write fast on cell. But that post was for other poster.

 

[Justcrazy]

I have to ask how old you are?
1: indias population will be declining soon as they have tackled the issue. It will take decades but it will happen. There are reports by UN on it. Who said people in indía are living a luxurious life? Please stop making things up. I am not Indian not saying india is a great place. I am saying Indians have had this discussion as a nation and decided to address the issue. Pakistan has not due to the religious right. This is not that hard to understand.

That is made a religious issue , where as it is not. That is fault of people not Islam. As I said birth controlled done by companions themselves.

If a couple think that they need to do family planning , they can do that , but that should be discretion of the couple , for example health reasons of wife.

I no where defended the thought , I am standing with you that Pakistan has these issues.

 

[SalimBhai]

Sorry , I have no answer , I always access this forum on chromebook , because I do not write fast on cell. But that post was for other poster.

I know. I just wanted to what the post was ?

 

[SalimBhai]

That is made a religious issue , where as it is not. That is fault of people not Islam. As I said birth controlled done by companions themselves.

If a couple think that they need to do family planning , they can do that , but that should be discretion of the couple , for example health reasons of wife.

I no where defended the thought , I am standing with you that Pakistan has these issues.

I never said Islam is against family planning ( I actually don’t know in detail where it stands). I am saying the religious right in Pakistan is against family planning. I am no off to bed

 

[Justcrazy]

I never said Islam is against family planning ( I actually don’t know in detail where it stands). I am saying the religious right in Pakistan is against family planning. I am no off to bed

Religious right in Pakistan is against family planning , what is that supposed to mean? Throughout above you have been blaming shariah laws and Islam .

 

[SalimBhai]

Religious right in Pakistan is against family planning , what is that supposed to mean? Throughout above you have been blaming shariah laws and Islam .

Can you show me where I said that?? I always said religious people in Pakistan don’t allow for a discussion for population control

 

[saeedhk]

Firstly Tariq Masood is a fool , you have heard him very less , if you hear him more , you can make your own Youtube channel of jokes through him. He will give you lot of material.

The issue with his audience i is that they never ask any counter questions.

In Hadeeth we find that companions practiced birth control.

That is why I have so many times in this thread that equating Islam with Pakistan is a blunder . One is a country , other is a religion. Religion is what we get from scriptures .

Their is a hadeeth which says that on the day of judgement, the Prophet Mohammad PBUH would be proud of Muslims because they would be in more numbers than others. Also, Prophet Mohammad said that you should marry a woman who is very fertile and capable of producing many offsprings.

Even if we discount Tariq Masood, the majority of population says that they are against family planning because it is against Islam. According to a survey, 33% of women said their reason for not practising birth control was due to religious and cultural reasons.

 

[The_Odd_One]

I never said Islam is against family planning ( I actually don’t know in detail where it stands). I am saying the religious right in Pakistan is against family planning. I am no off to bed

Islam encourages having children. There's even a verse in Quran instructing people to not kill their children from the fear of poverty. I believe there's another verse that says every child brings his own sustenance from Allah.

There are hadiths which supports large families.

Abu Dawud (2050) narrated that Ma’qil ibn Yasar said: A man came to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and said, “I have found a woman who is of good lineage and is beautiful, but she does not bear children. Should I marry her?” He said, “No.” Then he came again with the same question and he told him not to marry her. Then he came a third time with the same question and he said: “Marry those who are loving and fertile, for I will be proud of your great numbers before the other nations.” (Classed as sahih by al-Albani in Irwa al-Ghalil, 1784).

Most religions support large families. That's why you see Muslims and Catholic Christians having multiple kids.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Firstly Tariq Masood is a fool , you have heard him very less , if you hear him more , you can make your own Youtube channel of jokes through him. He will give you lot of material.

The issue with his audience i is that they never ask any counter questions.

In Hadeeth we find that companions practiced birth control.

That is why I have so many times in this thread that equating Islam with Pakistan is a blunder . One is a country , other is a religion. Religion is what we get from scriptures .

Actually almost all the stuff he says is backed by the Quran and Hadith. Just because you do not find it morally right does not make it fabricated.

 

[Justcrazy]

Can you show me where I said that?? I always said religious people in Pakistan don’t allow for a discussion for population control

That is there choice whether they want to do birth control or not .

 

[Justcrazy]

Their is a hadeeth which says that on the day of judgement, the Prophet Mohammad PBUH would be proud of Muslims because they would be in more numbers than others. Also, Prophet Mohammad said that you should marry a woman who is very fertile and capable of producing many offsprings.

Even if we discount Tariq Masood, the majority of population says that they are against family planning because it is against Islam. According to a survey, 33% of women said their reason for not practising birth control was due to religious and cultural reasons.

The first hadeeth you quoted I tried to find but I could not. But yes , I came across hadeeth which does say that This nation of Muhammad SAW will be the biggest among all the other nations and also most inhabitants of Paradise will be from this nation.

Second one you said I found

Ma’qil ibn Yasar said: A man came to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and said, “I have found a woman who is of good lineage and is beautiful, but she does not bear children. Should I marry her?” He said, “No.” Then he came again with the same question and he told him not to marry her. Then he came a third time with the same question and he said: “Marry those who are loving and fertile, for I will be proud of your great numbers before the other nations.”

Here the woman is someone who is not fertile , could not have children. Purpose of marriage is procreation , this is something everyone wants for continuation of lineage.

Most couples would like to have children , but that does not mean that Islam explicitly prohibits birth control. If that was the case , companions would not have practiced interruption method of control.

Cultural reasons I cannot comment , but if someone says that something is haram in Islam , there has to be explicit evidence in that regard. It cannot be based on assumptions.

 

[Justcrazy]

Actually almost all the stuff he says is backed by the Quran and Hadith. Just because you do not find it morally right does not make it fabricated.

What stuff he mentioned is present in Quran and hadeeth , can you point out to it one by one ? Before judging my morality , show your evidence , so that I can know what you exactly are talking about ?